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Gus
16th-July-2005, 06:32 PM
ODA Mode On

So ... lets not pussy-foot about this topic anymore. Ceroc is clearly on the road for UK dominance. Already its two main (only?) SE rivals have been assimilated (Rebel Roc and Jive Bug). Hipsters has been demised ( :( ) and now nothing stands between them painting the rest of the UK Orange. No doubt Mo'jive and Blitz are being approached and 'negotiated with'. Knowing what I do about Blitz this should be interesting but Ceroc has the edge in size, funding, instructors and market muscle power. The end of the 'independents' is now in sight. I predict that this time next year there will only be a small enclave of LeRocers hanging out round Bristol, still insisting on stepping back on the left foot.

The future is Orange, the future is Ceroc.

ODA Mode Off


So, idle speculation or a prediction of the future. what do you think Mr McGregor?

Lynn
16th-July-2005, 07:18 PM
...and now nothing stands between them painting the rest of the UK Orange...snip

The future is Orange, the future is Ceroc. Well if they open in NI that could cause them a few problems - being too Orange that is! :rofl:

Northants Girly
16th-July-2005, 08:19 PM
The future is Orange, the future is Ceroc.

At work we have had all the signs replaced with big orange ones too and what with the Easy Cinema now in Milton Keynes we are wondering if Stellios has anythnig to do with it!

So maybe Ceroc will become Easy Jive?

Dance Demon
16th-July-2005, 08:34 PM
now in Milton Keynes we are wondering if Stellios has anythnig to do with it!
So maybe Ceroc will become Easy Jive?


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

David Bailey
16th-July-2005, 10:04 PM
OK, firstly, anyone else got completely the wrong idea about this thread's topic, or am I the only one with a dirty mind?


So, idle speculation or a prediction of the future. what do you think Mr McGregor?
Well, assuming this was aimed at more than Andy, I'll answer.

I don't care. Honestly, it doesn't matter to me who gets my lazily-earned dosh, only that I have a good night.

If the proposed Ceroc monopoly would mean a reduction in quality or enjoyment, of course I'd care. But ignoring economic monopoly-related arguments of which I know little, I don't believe it should - the franchise model provides for plenty of competition in the areas I dance in, I believe (almost all of which are Ceroc), so I don't think that'll change.

Alos, I'm still waiting for this fabled controversial thread. I know, How about: Ceroc Domination Is A Really Good Thing? :)

Lou
16th-July-2005, 11:30 PM
I don't care. Honestly, it doesn't matter to me who gets my lazily-earned dosh, only that I have a good night.Much as I hate to agree with David, :yeah:


Alos, I'm still waiting for this fabled controversial thread. I know, How about: Ceroc Domination Is A Really Good Thing? :)It depends. What do the Taxis wear?

.

MartinHarper
16th-July-2005, 11:37 PM
Anyone else got completely the wrong idea about this thread's topic?

Any nominations for "Ceroc teacher most likely to be into UK Domination"?

drathzel
17th-July-2005, 01:27 AM
Much as I hate to agree with David, :yeah:

It depends. What do the Taxis wear?

.


it has been suggested low cut tops and high waisted tops for proper viewing of mid rift! :tears:

Dance Demon
17th-July-2005, 07:21 AM
it has been suggested low cut tops and high waisted tops for proper viewing of mid rift! :tears:

And that's just for the men........... :D

animaltalk
17th-July-2005, 12:39 PM
I don't care. Honestly, it doesn't matter to me who gets my lazily-earned dosh, only that I have a good night.

If the proposed Ceroc monopoly would mean a reduction in quality or enjoyment, of course I'd care. But ignoring economic monopoly-related arguments of which I know little, I don't believe it should - the franchise model provides for plenty of competition in the areas I dance in, I believe (almost all of which are Ceroc), so I don't think that'll change.

Alos, I'm still waiting for this fabled controversial thread. I know, How about: Ceroc Domination Is A Really Good Thing? :)

I do care - because i generally believe it will lead to a demise of quality, -

Constructive Competition - aiming at a slightly different market share is good
Aggressive/Destructive competition - is not

Sadly in nearly everything in the life the Lowest Common Denominator wins Competition => get people in door => High turnover of people, basic music, easier lessons => Less advanced dancers => less classes to keep advanced dancers interested => advanced dancers leave => and so on

Also significantly more expensive than independent venues

I've been to fab Ceroc venues, met fab Ceroc people (Especially Aberdeen ladies) - but my general experience has been disappointing.
Having said that - thank you for ceroc in getting MJ to be as big as it is across the UK

El Salsero Gringo
17th-July-2005, 01:01 PM
Sadly in nearly everything in the life the Lowest Common Denominator wins Competition => get people in door => High turnover of people, basic music, easier lessons => Less advanced dancers => less classes to keep advanced dancers interested => advanced dancers leave => and so on
There's no logic in this sequence of statements. Getting more people in the door is best done with a *low* turnover of people, because it's much cheaper to retain existing customers than recruit new ones. So there's good commercial sense in running classes that dancers want to return to week after week. All the evidence suggests that this is Ceroc's strongest point. And I don't see any evidence that advanced dancers are really that interested in classes as opposed to having a decent dance floor and music they like.

As for Ceroc being more expensive: I don't see that Ceroc is vastly more expensive than independent venues (some of which are run as hobbies round here, rather than as a business.) If someone's trying to earn a living from running a Ceroc venue you could just as strongly argue that they have a much greater interest in keeping the venue alive by giving customer satisfaction.

Speaking as a customer, it's customer satisfaction that I'm after, obviously. Apart from free water.

animaltalk
17th-July-2005, 01:19 PM
There's no logic in this sequence of statements. Getting more people in the door is best done with a *low* turnover of people, because t's much cheaper to retain existing customers than recruit new ones.

I agree - but it is not what I see
Also poorly explained :blush: - links to point I made about 90% of dancers wanting a social/dating club (Nothing wrong per se) - not to challenge and improve their dancing -

Which Market share would you aim at 90% or 10% -especially if you're being aggressively competed against


And I don't see any evidence that advanced dancers are really that interested in classes as opposed to having a decent dance floor and music they like.

Ahem - I think this partly makes my point - Are there classes for advanced dancers to want to go to?


If someone's trying to earn a living from running a Ceroc venue you could just as strongly argue that they have a much greater interest in keeping the venue alive by giving customer satisfaction.

See earlier point about who to appeal to

You could also argue if someone is running something as a hobby - they are more likely to be passionate about and less concerned about always making money and therefore more likely to put on classes/workshops which are different/unusal/'unsafe'

David Bailey
17th-July-2005, 02:16 PM
So there's good commercial sense in running classes that dancers want to return to week after week. All the evidence suggests that this is Ceroc's strongest point.
Exactly, senor Turnip. High retention numbers are what drives any customer-facing business forward.


Also poorly explained :blush: - links to point I made about 90% of dancers wanting a social/dating club (Nothing wrong per se) - not to challenge and improve their dancing
I have no idea whether these numbers are accurate or not, but I'd suspect not. In my experience most Ceroc customers are there to both dance and socialise in varying degrees, with only a few on either extreme of the spectrum (dancer-only or social-only).

In fact, one could argue that being a good dancer is a big bonus to a, ahem, active social life, so even pure "socialisers" have an incentive to improve their dancing. :whistle:


Which Market share would you aim at 90% or 10% -especially if you're being aggressively competed against
Errr... can I phone a friend for that one, it's a bit too difficult for me :innocent:

Seriously, you're predicating an entire line of reasoning on this 90/10 premise, which I don't agree with - I'm happy to be convinced, but I'll need to see at least a little bit of data first.


You could also argue if someone is running something as a hobby - they are more likely to be passionate about and less concerned about always making money and therefore more likely to put on classes/workshops which are different/unusal/'unsafe'
Possibly - but I'll stick with economics; I'm very happy for people to make scads of money from running dance venues, because that in itself will create competition from others who want their mitts on the loot.

And people get bored of running hobbies, but they have to do their jobs...

Workshops / weekenders are maybe slightly different from regular classes - it's plausible that these are better run by independents.

El Salsero Gringo
17th-July-2005, 02:59 PM
Ahem - I think this partly makes my point - Are there classes for advanced dancers to want to go to?Well there were, but they tend to close through lack of attendance. Hipsters classes recently, for example. And Gus used to run a more advanced class up north, I think, but closed it because of lack of support. Jango on Monday nights gets a small cadre of very advanced dancers but I don't know how many go for the class and how many simply to dance with other good dancers. Anyway, that venue is too small to be run on a profitable basis by a company like Ceroc.

You could also argue if someone is running something as a hobby - they are more likely to be passionate about and less concerned about always making money and therefore more likely to put on classes/workshops which are different/unusal/'unsafe'So if they're running it as a hobby - no problem with competition from Ceroc then is there? If it doesn't need to make a profit, it's not under threat!

Most of your points seem to come from the same angle: that you're one of the 10% rather than one of the 90%, but you wish that Ceroc (or any other organisation out to feed it's staff) should cater for you rather than take the most money. You want something 'different/unusual/'unsafe' - but you acknowledge that the market won't support it. And I'd like to fly to the moon for thruppence, but it ain't gonna happen....

Gadget
17th-July-2005, 04:07 PM
I do care - because i generally believe it will lead to a demise of quality, -Only if the people (teachers & franchisees) cease caring about the dance. And I don't see that happening.


Sadly in nearly everything in the life the Lowest Common Denominator wins Competition => get people in door => High turnover of people, basic music, easier lessons => Less advanced dancers => less classes to keep advanced dancers interested => advanced dancers leave => and so on
You want a fiscal reason to keep the advanced dancers? They are what inspires everyone below them to keep coming. The higher the top level of the pyramid, the more can be supported below it.

The advantage that Ceroc has is that their "basic" level is basic enough to pull people in through the door, but they have the resources to be able to run workshops and things for the "advanced" dancer that may actually run at a loss: The over-all gain is spread throught every satalite venue that the attendees go back to.


I've been to fab Ceroc venues, met fab Ceroc people (Especially Aberdeen ladies) - but my general experience has been disappointing. So you can find flaws and criticisim; envisage a downward spiral of degrading and erosion of the dance. That's easy. What would it take to stop this? What would keep the client base they already have for longer, but not scare off beginners?
I only have Franck's administration to compare with, and AFIK there is not really any competition up here. We don't seem to be that bad for the level/quality of dancers - I've not seen any evidence of that spiral of decay.


(PS I agree about the Aberdeen ladies... And I get to dance with them every week :clap: )

Lynn
17th-July-2005, 04:28 PM
I don't care. Honestly, it doesn't matter to me who gets my lazily-earned dosh, only that I have a good night. :yeah: Its the product I am interested in. And that is teacher, music, venue, other dancers (not nessecarily in that order). I don't dance salsa here because of the venues, mainly the lack of smoke free 'club' venues (ie freestyle). But some of the class venues have a lot of spilt alcohol, chewing gum etc on the floors as well. If someone came up with a salsa 'product' I liked I would go along. Though with MJ I would probably go along whatever the 'label' over the door. And it wouldn't make much difference here as few have heard of Ceroc. Instead of telling people 'modern jive is the generic name for the dance style taught by Ceroc', it would be more like 'Ceroc is a company that teach modern jive'.

Andy McGregor
17th-July-2005, 10:03 PM
The future is Orange, the future is Ceroc.

So, idle speculation or a prediction of the future. what do you think Mr McGregor?Firstly, my company colours, to date, have been blue and orange. But after reading this thread they will change to blue and yellow in September. Orange is soooo 1976 ...

My own opinion is that the sequence goes something like this.

1. Ceroc contact the 4 regional organisers with more than 5 successful nights and say "how much for your company?"

2. Ceroc decide if they will pay what is being asked.

So that takes 3 months. Then Ceroc go back to organic growth.

I don't think Ceroc will ever take over every club. Most of them aren't even close to the criteria that Ceroc require from their nights.

And I think it would be a bad thing for MJ if Ceroc ran the whole show. There would be nowhere to go for those disenchanted with Ceroc, Viktor, Nigel Anderson, etc. There would be less innovation and less variation between classes. And variation means consumer choice resulting in more satisfied cusomers. And more satisfied customers means more people to dance with :clap:

I'm doing my bit for making sure Ceroc don't take over by running the only independent teacher training courses. Come on Gus, I challenge you to run one in Manchester to keep the map more colourful :whistle:

Paul F
17th-July-2005, 11:21 PM
And I think it would be a bad thing for MJ if Ceroc ran the whole show. There would be nowhere to go for those disenchanted with Ceroc, Viktor, Nigel Anderson, etc. There would be less innovation and less variation between classes.
:

Interesting point Andy. Im not disagreeing with it as such but I was wondering if there are examples of what you mean by "less innovation and less variation"?

From what I can tell from the independants that I have visited is that they have simply attempted to duplicate what Ceroc does. A large proportion of the independants teach the same moves, the same way, using the same format ....

I am hard pushed to remember the last time I went to a normal class and thought, hmmm thats different.
When Hipsters was popular it was still doing the same thing. The only difference was that it was an advanced class. Although Nigel, Viktor et al are great teachers there are plenty of others in Ceroc who are just as good with their own unique styles. This will only be increased with Ceroc promoting diversity amongst its teachers which apparently it never used to do.

I seem to remember people saying years ago that Ceroc wanted to clone its teachers but, from what I can see, they now look to let their teachers draw upon other experiences or styles.

I suppose what im really asking is - what will we lose that Ceroc cannot provide?

animaltalk
18th-July-2005, 12:37 AM
Can an comparison been drawn with Tesco

Tesco - open 24 hours, you know what you're getting. "quality" guarranteed

Local butcher/fishmonger/greengrocer - Can't compete. closes

people go to whatevers convenient 99% of time,

But when you want something different/personal service . . . . .

Poorly explained I know - but its late. I hear what you are all saying.

The 90% 10% ratio, was quoted to me by a London dancer, I applied to our own Thursday Exeter night
200 dancers (15-20 - travel to weekends/advanced dancers/compete/addicted)
45% - we guessed did one night a week social dancing - no underlying agenda
Remaining 45% - the dancing dating agency - every 3rd month please move round one lady . . . . . :wink:

Do the sums on your own classes - 90/10 might be extreeme, but again . . .
Ceroc is loosening up on instructors, I guess I am quite defensive because we are very proud of Nelson and Karen and their independent classes, but I danced in Bristol for 5 years and they definitley needed a shake up. . .

bobgadjet
18th-July-2005, 01:33 AM
So what if Ceroc got UK domination, at least

You know what you would be getting where ever you wnet dancing

You know who to compain to if you didn't like something

You know the quality of the venue would be acceptable, and if not, again you know where to complain

You know the national door fee

etc etc

something to be said to the Tesco thing also, but looking at that comparison, there will still be Asda, Sainsburys, Coop, Morrisons etc etc, so presumably there will still be a small club out there somewhere if you either fell out with, or wanted no more to do with Ceroc.

The choice would still be yours.

If the local ceroc club was no good, you would vote with your feet, and they would then either close the venue to leave a gap for an independant, or improve.................

so what the fuss (as Stevie Wonder would say)

El Salsero Gringo
18th-July-2005, 07:41 AM
I wonder if the recent takeover with Rebel Roc meets the OFT's criteria for an examination by the Competition Commission (http://www.competition-commission.org.uk/) ?

Does the UK supply of Modern Jive lessons form a market in which recent events have significantly lessened the available competition?

Lynn
18th-July-2005, 09:52 AM
Firstly, my company colours, to date, have been blue and orange. But after reading this thread they will change to blue and yellow in September. Orange is soooo 1976 ...
A little aside on the colours thing...BBC NI can't use orange/green/red/white/blue etc in their colour schemes - even when putting maps on screen in news reports. People phone in and complain if they do ( :rolleyes: )- so maps are shown in yellow and a sort of burgandy/wine colour! :what:

David Bailey
18th-July-2005, 09:54 AM
So what if Ceroc got UK domination, at least

You know what you would be getting where ever you wnet dancing
You know who to compain to if you didn't like something
You know the quality of the venue would be acceptable, and if not, again you know where to complain
You know the national door fee
:yeah:
On the competition front, I think that (at least for my location in North London), there's plenty of, ahem, quite intense competition between Ceroc franchisees already - anyone who thinks that neighbouring Ceroc franchises coordinate their events together is nuts.

I appreciate not everyone can say the same in their areas - but the solution's obvious, just move to London :innocent:

I'm almost tempted to make a case for "Independents: a very bad thing?"...

MartinHarper
18th-July-2005, 09:55 AM
Does the UK supply of Modern Jive lessons form a market in which recent events have significantly lessened the available competition?

I expect that the competition commision would view the market as "dance tuition" rather than "modern jive tuition". There's still plenty of competition between Ceroc and people who teach other dances.

Paul F
18th-July-2005, 10:01 AM
Not sure i f I would go along with the comparison of Ceroc and the leading supermarkets or other manopolistic business. (yes, i did make that word up)

Ceroc is franchised. This is already bringing with it a difference between areas. Some franchisees go for theme nights, some competitions etc.

We would have a core directive to do with pricing and other things like that but when it comes to the way in which Ceroc is presented in that area it is down to the Franschisees. Everyone has their own idea on whats good and bad.

Im not saying that this is a good thing or not, only that it promotes differences and diversity.

Gus
18th-July-2005, 10:11 AM
Although Nigel, Viktor et al are great teachers there are plenty of others in Ceroc who are just as good with their own unique styles. Sorry .. can't let this one go:devil:. Come on, NAME 5 Ceroc instructors in the same class! (Must admit that I can only think of 2, maybe 3 at a push ... personal view of course and I admit that I'm not as up to date as used to be.)

Paul F
18th-July-2005, 10:23 AM
Sorry .. can't let this one go:devil:. Come on, NAME 5 Ceroc instructors in the same class! (Must admit that I can only think of 2, maybe 3 at a push ... personal view of course and I admit that I'm not as up to date as used to be.)

Define 'the same class'. Is it just because the names listed here have won things?

I do agree though that I may have been pushing myself with the word 'plenty'.

Cruella
18th-July-2005, 10:47 AM
Sorry .. can't let this one go:devil:. Come on, NAME 5 Ceroc instructors in the same class! (Must admit that I can only think of 2, maybe 3 at a push ... personal view of course and I admit that I'm not as up to date as used to be.)
I'd put Roy Agasaba Power (can never get his name right), Emma Pettit and H up there. But as you say it's all down to personal choice. There may be some people who don't like Nigel or Victors teaching. :devil: It depends what you look for in a teacher. I personally want someone that will make the class fun at the same time as teaching you moves. So a big personality is key in a teacher in my eyes.

Andy McGregor
18th-July-2005, 10:57 AM
Sorry .. can't let this one go:devil:. Come on, NAME 5 Ceroc instructors in the same class! (Must admit that I can only think of 2, maybe 3 at a push ... personal view of course and I admit that I'm not as up to date as used to be.)IMHO the best dancers did not become the best because of Ceroc teaching. They are the best because they are properly trained dancers or musicians. I didn't add Nina to the list but I challenge Paul F to name one current CTA trained Ceroc teacher who comes close in terms of dancing skill - or one Ceroc teacher who teaches as well as Nigel Anderson.

I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with what Ceroc do: what they do they do well and do consistently. But the Ceroc organisation seems to be about conformity and consistency of product - this is not an environment where innovation, excellence and brilliance will flourish. Here's another question, if the whole map were orange would be have blues dancing?

And, the final reason I will put forward, slightly tongue in cheek, for the map not turning orange is that there aren't enough pretty dancers who want to teach. Therefore the rate limiting factor to the move to orange must be the CTA requirement to be pretty - unless the CTA course includes a quick bit of plastic surgery.

Andy McGregor
18th-July-2005, 11:19 AM
And, Gus has got it wrong. Ceroc do not want "UK Domination". They want to take over the world. They're already in New Zealand, Australia and Singapore and I keep hearing snippets about the USA and Germany - if we were really clever we'd register the trademark Ceroc in a few strategic countries and then sell the name to Ceroc when their orange tanks roll over the borders :devil:

El Salsero Gringo
18th-July-2005, 11:32 AM
... but I challenge Paul F to name one current CTA trained Ceroc teacher who comes close in terms of dancing skill - or one Ceroc teacher who teaches as well as Nigel Anderson.
The lessons of Nigel's that I've been to (only two or three, but enough to form an intial opinion) didn't fire me up at all. So my experience is that there are lots of CTA teachers who teach as well as he does.

And (slightly tongue-in-cheek) there are quite a few CTA teachers who are really rather ugly - again in my opinion.

Paul F
18th-July-2005, 11:56 AM
I didn't add Nina to the list but I challenge Paul F to name one current CTA trained Ceroc teacher who comes close in terms of dancing skill - or one Ceroc teacher who teaches as well as Nigel Anderson.



Who is going to judge this? If I say person X teaches as well as Nigel Anderson, who is to say I am right or wrong?

Nigel is a great teacher but I have have been to Ceroc classes taught by people with the same ability to teach - absolutely definately. But, as I say, thats my opinion.

You mentioned dancing skill. On what basis are you highlighting one particular person? What did they do to warrant such lavish praise? Is it because they won things? Are you saying that because they have great skill they are a great teacher?

I apologise for being so abrupt but people single out such teachers as being iconic figures. I think they are brilliant teachers, i really do. I also think though that teachers exist, and will continually emerge, who are just as good at teaching as those mentioned here.

The point that was raised was if MJ would suffer by losing such teachers. I say no. There are many teachers (including Ceroc affiliates as well) who can continue to provide first class teaching if 2 or 3 people are lost.

Lynn
18th-July-2005, 12:13 PM
I don't think its good for any one product or company to completely dominate a market to the extent that no competition can survive. (I think this is different for small specialist products/providers).

If there is no competition - there is no customer choice. If there is no customer choice there is no incentive for the business to aim for customer loyalty. The business ends up with its focus on attracting new customers... which can eventually be unhealthy not only for that business, but also for the whole product.

If someone goes to any 'big' dance provider but fancy a change of scene, maybe hit a plateau in their dancing they want to try a different venue/teaching style/group of dancers - if there is an alternative venue - they go along to that. But they still have friends in their old venue, so they aren't lost as customers completely. If there is no alternative then they go to salsa or another dance style instead and get into that and are lost as customers completely.

So having real alternatives will mean that to achieve customer loyalty the product gets better and better.

It would be interesting to know how long a venue will retain customers who only attend that venue, never go to other freestyles, weekenders, parties etc - what is the average length of time that such dancers are retained?

Gus
18th-July-2005, 12:18 PM
Nigel is a great teacher but I have have been to Ceroc classes taught by people with the same ability to teach - absolutely definitely. But, as I say, thats my opinion.
Lets put it this way. I could grab a bunch of friends (all pretty experienced dancers, some dance champions between them). Out of the 10 of us if I said that we were going to have a workshop with ,say, Amir, Viktor, Nina, Nigel, DavidB ... I reckon 10 out of 10 would go for it. On the other hand, you could put together whatever group of CTA instructors and I would guarantee that some of that group could question what they have to learn from those instructors.

CTA's great strength is producing people who can teach to a formula. The vast majority of CTA teachers are not dance teachers, they do not have a deep understanding of dance technique. Horses for courses. Ceroc is superb at teaching the majority but I would submit that Ceroc does not cater for the top of the tree, lets lead that to the 'A list' instructors!

YES!!! Managed to drag that old thread up again!!! BUARRRGHHHHHHH ... let the old battle recommence ... where is Gordon P now?? :devil: :devil: :wink: :waycool:

El Salsero Gringo
18th-July-2005, 12:34 PM
Lets put it this way. I could grab a bunch of friends (all pretty experienced dancers, some dance champions between them). Out of the 10 of us if I said that we were going to have a workshop with ,say, Amir, Viktor, Nina, Nigel, DavidB ...
CTA's great strength is producing people who can teach to a formula. The vast majority of CTA teachers are not dance teachers...So define dance teacher. The majority of your list of named experts started dancing in adulthood, haven't done DFES-approved teacher training courses and don't teach dance as their main source of income.

Your distinction between who "is a teacher" and "has a deep understanding of dance technique" versus those who "just teach the majority" is just as subjective as anything else.

MartinHarper
18th-July-2005, 12:43 PM
Who is going to judge this? If I say person X teaches as well as Nigel Anderson, who is to say I am right or wrong?

Moving away from the whole "judgement" and "I'm right, you're wrong" thing... which Ceroc teachers do you think teach as well as, or better than, "Nigel, Viktor, et al"? I promise not to judge your answer - I'm simply interested in your opinion.

Gadget
18th-July-2005, 01:08 PM
Teach what? Some are better at others in different areas.

Rhythm King
18th-July-2005, 01:13 PM
Moving away from the whole "judgement" and "I'm right, you're wrong" thing... which Ceroc teachers do you think teach as well as, or better than, "Nigel, Viktor, et al"? I promise not to judge your answer - I'm simply interested in your opinion.

Well, for what my opinion is worth, in no particular order, and without having thought about it much:

Michaela Walker, Emma Pettit, Bill Cooper, Simon Rich, Franck Pauly and Lisa Stott.

Any other offers?

Petal
18th-July-2005, 01:17 PM
So maybe Ceroc will become Easy Jive?


Hey Peaches, someone stealing your thunder, almost. Deja vu? :rolleyes:

Robin
18th-July-2005, 01:19 PM
Moving away from the whole "judgement" and "I'm right, you're wrong" thing... which Ceroc teachers do you think teach as well as, or better than, "Nigel, Viktor, et al"? I promise not to judge your answer - I'm simply interested in your opinion.


Ermmm ... just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons so to speak, Viktor was a ceroc teacher ... and in case you didn't know it so was Nigel!

bigdjiver
18th-July-2005, 01:24 PM
There are world-renowned teachers teaching at the highest level in universities. A great number of their students would not be there if it was not for virtually unknown, but IMO just as great, teachers at primary school.

The so-called A-list teachers look out on a sea of faces that have been through the Ceroc system from the "two left feet" stage, and been inspired enough to want to climb to the top. I have little doubt that most of the A-list teachers appreciate what they, themselves, learned from Ceroc and similar organisations.

Gus
18th-July-2005, 01:44 PM
Ermmm ... just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons so to speak, Viktor was a ceroc teacher ... and in case you didn't know it so was Nigel!And the interesting word is was ... along with a whole host of other highly rated (yet ex-CTA) teachers. Maybe this is due to the fact that they needed to go their own path to develop and improve :whistle:

Don't know if that is the truth but its a possible argument.

animaltalk
18th-July-2005, 01:45 PM
There are world-renowned teachers teaching at the highest level in universities. A great number of their students would not be there if it was not for virtually unknown, but IMO just as great, teachers at primary school.

The so-called A-list teachers look out on a sea of faces that have been through the Ceroc system from the "two left feet" stage, and been inspired enough to want to climb to the top. I have little doubt that most of the A-list teachers appreciate what they, themselves, learned from Ceroc and similar organisations.

I agree - and without Ceroc helping to grow MJ, weekenders ectetera would not be growing as rapidly.

Sadly I just mistrust all big comps/organisation - I like local/personal/individual/eccentric. . . . Just my own little soapbox

BUT IM(not particularly humble ;->)O

1) With the exception of (Mick[London teacher?) - all the best lessons I had were from non-current Ceroc teachers

2) The freestyles that played the most varied selection of music (personal preference - were non-Ceroc

3) People who I enjoy watching compete/perform - non-Cerocers

4) Nearly all the people who I enjoy dancing with most when asked were non-Cerocers

(Except in Scotland - Honestly not trying to earn Brownie points, just was very pleasantly surprised on recent trip to scotland . . . . . )

Maybe new thread - Ceroc Scotland - World Domination - good thing? ?

animaltalk
18th-July-2005, 01:52 PM
And the interesting word is was ... along with a whole host of other highly rated (yet ex-CTA) teachers. Maybe this is due to the fact that they needed to go their own path to develop and improve :whistle:

Don't know if that is the truth but its a possible argument.

Which is why domination is a bad thing - because by its definition it limits the ability to experience other formulas/styles

Robin
18th-July-2005, 02:36 PM
Which is why domination is a bad thing - because by its definition it limits the ability to experience other formulas/styles
Alas no .... Nigel was already well reknown and had won numerous titles before he became a ceroc teacher for Adam - aka CerocMetro. He used to teach Finchley on a Monday.

Damien
18th-July-2005, 02:44 PM
Sorry .. can't let this one go:devil:. Come on, NAME 5 Ceroc instructors in the same class! (Must admit that I can only think of 2, maybe 3 at a push ... personal view of course and I admit that I'm not as up to date as used to be.)


I've never danced outside the Greater Manchester area so have never witnessed any of the legends at work. However, George Moss who teaches at Prestwich is pretty damn good. Certainly, in a different class to most other teachers around here.

Paul F
18th-July-2005, 05:16 PM
Moving away from the whole "judgement" and "I'm right, you're wrong" thing... which Ceroc teachers do you think teach as well as, or better than, "Nigel, Viktor, et al"? I promise not to judge your answer - I'm simply interested in your opinion.

Apologies Martin as Im not going to post who are first rate teachers as its my opinion and I will just get people disagreeing. This in itself is fine but it means I have to keep logging on to keep the debate going :grin:

Gus, you mention about taking your group of advanced champion dancers to a workshop. Im not! Teaching a Ceroc class needs a whole different heap of abilities.

Im talking about the people mentioned here have 'just as good' an ability to teach a CEROC CLASS as those currently in the CTA.
We are talking about Ceroc taking over Ceroc-like venues. Losing the teachers named here is not the end as we know it. They will continue but not doing Ceroc classes.

Andy McGregor
18th-July-2005, 05:49 PM
Ermmm ... just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons so to speak, Viktor was a ceroc teacher ... and in case you didn't know it so was Nigel!Which is why I've been saying that the existence of independent classes gives people like them somewhere to go.

The title of this particular controversial thread is not "who is the best teacher" ...

.. it's about whether or not the UK MJ scene would be better or worse if Ceroc was the only place you could learn MJ - and my answer is that it would be a lesser scene without competition causing the product to evolve. But I'm only going by what Darwin said rather than what Mike Ellard would like :innocent:

bigdjiver
18th-July-2005, 06:01 PM
... it's about whether or not the UK MJ scene would be better or worse if Ceroc was the only place you could learn MJ ...Domination is not the same as monopolising. A monopoly would be bad, but I cannot see it happening. I believe that Ceroc should aim to be market leader, and to have a National presence.

Tesco are sponsoring "Race for life" events to raise money for Cancer charity work. Ceroc should be in a position to join in with such ventures. IMO it would be a superb promotion to offer anybody with a race for life medal an admit 2/3 (Newcomers tend to come in groups.)

I do not see Ceroc driving any properly run venue out of business. All of the independent venues I know have built their own loyal following, and there is little migration. The big mistake that independents make is closing down for a while, for a summer break, or through illness.

Mr Cool
18th-July-2005, 06:35 PM
Lets put it this way. I could grab a bunch of friends (all pretty experienced dancers, some dance champions between them). Out of the 10 of us if I said that we were going to have a workshop with ,say, Amir, Viktor, Nina, Nigel, DavidB ... I reckon 10 out of 10 would go for it. On the other hand, you could put together whatever group of CTA instructors and I would guarantee that some of that group could question what they have to learn from those instructors.

CTA's great strength is producing people who can teach to a formula. The vast majority of CTA teachers are not dance teachers, they do not have a deep understanding of dance technique. Horses for courses. Ceroc is superb at teaching the majority but I would submit that Ceroc does not cater for the top of the tree, lets lead that to the 'A list' instructors!

YES!!! Managed to drag that old thread up again!!! BUARRRGHHHHHHH ... let the old battle recommence ... where is Gordon P now?? :devil: :devil: :wink: :waycool:

I believe Ceroc has done more to get people dancing than any other organisation. I have no axe to grind I guess Im a dance whore, I dance anywhere and have no interest in teaching, I just love to dance. Regarding standard of teaching different people like different things. I would say Nigel and Nina are simply the best all round dancers performers and teachers at many forms of dance. Victor is good but quite specialised (no man who wants to dance again dare critisise him) I do not agree with your other choices There are many good ceroc teachers and their standard format is copied widely, they also run some of the best venues. In any case once a dancer becomes competent surely it is up to them to seek out the teaching / dancing they desire. :waycool: :waycool: :waycool: :waycool:

animaltalk
18th-July-2005, 07:21 PM
I believe Ceroc has done more to get people dancing than any other organisation.

I have to agree - but my concern is if they were to move into areas outside big cities where the population is not big enough to support 2 classes.

The independent can't compete against some one with big backing, unless he is exceptional

And people don't have a choice because of the distance to travel to the next town, which could equally be Ceroc based and identical and thus you end up with a monopoly and no choice.

Having said all that I have been to a number of independents that really don't deserve to be in business.

JonD
18th-July-2005, 07:45 PM
I've never been to a Ceroc class - innocent that I am. But, the greatest dance compliment I've ever received came from a very proud Ceroc Taxi Dancer: she told me that I don't dance the moves properly. As I'd been trying to get away from dancing sequences of moves I was absolutely delighted.

As I understand it, the Ceroc model is based on a high throughput of beginner to intermediate dancers with little focus on advanced skills. That makes perfect business sense. Indeed, it is probably the only viable model for a regular class - unless you have a very high density dance population like London. So, if Ceroc dominate that market it will be difficult for teachers who are keen to cater for the advanced dancer to run viable businesses.

However, I'm all for competition. I don't think that Ceroc will find it that easy to dominate the market. Franchises are of variable quality and, unless there is a truly excellent customer service / quality standards regime at head office, Ceroc will probably find it difficult to maintain it's market position despite it's marketing clout. Also, each franchise has it's own profit and loss account so it is unlikely that Ceroc can operate a class on a "loss leader" basis to squeeze out the opposition before racking their prices up.

On the plus side, more aggressive Ceroc marketing will force the independents to raise their game and that's good news for us consumers.

Paul F
18th-July-2005, 08:13 PM
On the plus side, more aggressive Ceroc marketing will force the independents to raise their game and that's good news for us consumers.


I wonder what would happen should Ceroc get some major financial backing in the form of sponsorship. If you think about it they reach a LOT of people per month. Many more than some sponsored sporting events do.

If Ceroc were to gain financial backing in this way would they be able to raise the bar so high that the independants simply couldnt attempt to offer the same facilities, luxuries or whatever that money can buy?

And no :) Im not even going to begin to guess what 'luxuries' these may be

MartinHarper
19th-July-2005, 12:04 AM
I wonder what would happen should Ceroc get some major financial backing in the form of sponsorship.

Well, if Rugby is sponsored by Carling, because rugby fans like their beer, perhaps Ceroc should be sponsored by Anglia Water? Tonight, free tap water - Courtesy of our sponsors!

I'm against it. If we have to applaud anyone else at the end of the class, my hands will get sore.

bigdjiver
19th-July-2005, 12:59 AM
I have to agree - but my concern is if they were to move into areas outside big cities where the population is not big enough to support 2 classes.

The independent can't compete against some one with big backing, unless he is exceptional

And people don't have a choice because of the distance to travel to the next town, which could equally be Ceroc based and identical and thus you end up with a monopoly and no choice.

Having said all that I have been to a number of independents that really don't deserve to be in business.What population do you think it takes to support two classes? Bedford is a smallish town and it supports 2 Ceroc classes, 1 Leroc class, and a seasonal Lindy class, as well as Salsa, Tango and various other dance classes. There was a Wednesday class as well, but that closed because the teachers quit. The guy that ran that is looking for a teacher.
There is another Leroc class 15 miles to the North, and another Ceroc class 2 miles from that. There is a Ceroc class 12 miles to the East. I have no feeling at all of market saturation, and certainly no feeling of domination or monopoly.

One of the things that I think about is how to get the same penetration of the big City potential.

animaltalk
19th-July-2005, 01:39 AM
I suppose part of the answer to that is how big a class should be, I danced in Bristol for 5 years where the classes were around the 40 mark but there were lots of them. I now go to a class that has 200 every week.

I definitely prefer the later, with a bigger venue, more space, more variety of dancers and reasonable number of experienced dancers

Dazzle
19th-July-2005, 02:12 AM
I wonder what would happen should Ceroc get some major financial backing in the form of sponsorship.

Happy to admit I am wrong :blush: but I thought Ceroc already had sponsorship from Bacardi as it is displayed on Taxi T-shirts isn't it? That may just be a small deal for the shirts only though?

Swinging bee
19th-July-2005, 09:09 AM
ODA Mode On

So ... lets not pussy-foot about this topic anymore. Ceroc is clearly on the road for UK dominance. Already its two main (only?) SE rivals have been assimilated (Rebel Roc and Jive Bug). Hipsters has been demised ( :( ) and now nothing stands between them painting the rest of the UK Orange. No doubt Mo'jive and Blitz are being approached and 'negotiated with'. Knowing what I do about Blitz this should be interesting but Ceroc has the edge in size, funding, instructors and market muscle power. The end of the 'independents' is now in sight. I predict that this time next year there will only be a small enclave of LeRocers hanging out round Bristol, still insisting on stepping back on the left foot.

The future is Orange, the future is Ceroc.

ODA Mode Off


So, idle speculation or a prediction of the future. what do you think Mr McGregor?



The future is orange eh!
Imagine a ceroc dominated scenario:eek: Let's hope everyone doesn't dance at the same time on the same night :tears: .....All that bouncing up and down could sink this little island ....

Andy McGregor
19th-July-2005, 11:52 AM
...All that bouncing up and down could sink this little island ....I wonder what track they'd be playing? Let's ask Mick :wink:

Donna
19th-July-2005, 12:02 PM
The future is orange eh!
Imagine a ceroc dominated scenario:eek: Let's hope everyone doesn't dance at the same time on the same night :tears: .....All that bouncing up and down could sink this little island ....

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Swinging bee
19th-July-2005, 03:22 PM
I wonder what track they'd be playing? Let's ask Mick :wink:

"I just wanna bounce the night away"

Banana Man
20th-July-2005, 11:56 AM
ODA Mode On

So ... lets not pussy-foot about this topic anymore. Ceroc is clearly on the road for UK dominance. Already its two main (only?) SE rivals have been assimilated (Rebel Roc and Jive Bug). Hipsters has been demised ( :( ) and now nothing stands between them painting the rest of the UK Orange. No doubt Mo'jive and Blitz are being approached and 'negotiated with'. Knowing what I do about Blitz this should be interesting but Ceroc has the edge in size, funding, instructors and market muscle power. The end of the 'independents' is now in sight. I predict that this time next year there will only be a small enclave of LeRocers hanging out round Bristol, still insisting on stepping back on the left foot.

The future is Orange, the future is Ceroc.

ODA Mode Off


So, idle speculation or a prediction of the future. what do you think Mr McGregor?

Is this a case of having a go at someone because they are successful?

There's some suggestion on this thread about Ceroc actively targeting competitors for takeover or to put them out of business. Maybe they do Gus, but maybe some of the independent operators reach a point where they want to get out and see selling to Ceroc as a good route, or even that in moving under the Ceroc umbrella they can have a more successful business.

I don't know why the popularity of Hipsters declined, but I'm pretty certain it wasn't because everyone suddenly started going to Ceroc run venues.

The bigger Ceroc franchisees have a good base of customers to sell other products to and now you can really see that happening. There's a whole range of other dance styles going on - latin and ballroom classes, salsa, WCS, Tango. Surely that's a good thing? IMHO it goes a long way to providing something for everyone, particularly when the good DJs are capable of playing music that allows all these styles to be interpreted into MJ.

I think punters vote with their feet - Ceroc has a successful formula, sure the business goes up and down, weather, venue, facilities, teachers, taxis, other dancers, all these factors affect the business, but on the whole I think it seems to work well. I may be wrong but you appear to dislike the Ceroc organisation, yet I suspect you attend some Ceroc venues? I've seen all the fantastic dancers you mention (Amir, Viktor, Nina, Nigel, DavidB) at Ceroc run freestyle events in the last year. If it's good enough for you and for them, it's good enough for me.

I don't see this thread as adding anything other than attempting to stir up anti-Ceroc feelings! What's your real point Gus?

Andy McGregor
20th-July-2005, 12:10 PM
I don't see this thread as adding anything other than attempting to stir up anti-Ceroc feelings! What's your real point Gus?I think this thread is about possibility of Ceroc totally dominating the UK MJ scene. It's anti-possiblefuture in the way that George Orwell's 1984 was. Gus has asked us to debate a possiblefuture where every venue in the UK that teaches MJ is a Ceroc venue. He's not asking us to debate the current situation where the likes of Amir, Gus, Andy McGregor, Banana Man, etc, etc go to Ceroc venues. He's asking us to debate a possible future where we would have no choice.

And, we're not anti-Ceroc on here. After all, it's a Ceroc forum. What we are, from time to time, is anti some of the things that Ceroc does. And often Ceroc will agree with us because they make changes based on the things we write - look at the Ceroc champs for an example :clap:

p.s. Ooh! My power's just gone up to 5. I can feel it throbbing through my veins :wink:

bigdjiver
20th-July-2005, 12:50 PM
I think this thread is about possibility of Ceroc totally dominating the UK MJ scene. It's anti-possiblefuture in the way that George Orwell's 1984 was. Gus has asked us to debate a possiblefuture where every venue in the UK that teaches MJ is a Ceroc venue...

Dominate: "To exert a supreme, guiding influence on or over"
Someone to tell the MJ world what a particular move is called?

Dominate: "To enjoy a commanding, controlling position in"
Someone to set recognised minimum standards for teachers?
Someone to provide management expertise?
Someone to market MJ on a international scale?
Someone to provide continuity in the event of ill-health of personnel?

Dominate: "be larger in number, quantity, power, status or importance"
The biggest because it is the best?

There is no possibility of every venue being "Ceroc". Most of the population will want something slightly different, and there will be sufficient aggregations of such people to support other MJ forms. The best Ceroc can hope for is to provide a service that most MJ candidates will buy, and it seems to be doing that.

El Salsero Gringo
20th-July-2005, 02:24 PM
And, we're not anti-Ceroc on here. After all, it's a Ceroc forum.Aha ha ha aha aha ha ha

How many things that Ceroc does do you have to be 'anti' before you're 'anti-Ceroc', then?

Franck
20th-July-2005, 02:44 PM
How many things that Ceroc does do you have to be 'anti' before you're 'anti-Ceroc', then?
I don't think the thread is anti-Ceroc at all, looking at all the replies, most dancers think it would be a great thing, and most 'Commercial Operators' think it would be bad :innocent:

I think it would be great for everyone if the UK map was painted orange, as it many cases it would be the only way that some people would get access to Modern Jive. Independents are great, but typically only open classes where there is already a successful Ceroc class, and perceive a market for their own variation. Very few have the vision, training or funds to develop new areas.
As an example, I have been waiting for 5 years for someone to open an independent class in Inverness, to no avail. Eventually, I had to use my own resources and invest time and money to open it myself. I have no doubt however that in a couple of years time when it is busy an successful, an independent will want to open their own class there...

As a result, I believe Ceroc domination is the best possible news for dancers and independents. If we don't do our job, or indeed even if we do, but someone disagrees, they will have a ready market to offer their independent concept to.

Blues Dancer
20th-July-2005, 03:50 PM
I have no doubt however that in a couple of years time when it is busy an successful, an independent will want to open their own class there...
Probably someone that you've trained....

I wonder how many of the people that have been named as independant teachers would be dancing today if it wasn't for Ceroc.....

Gus
21st-July-2005, 11:19 PM
There's some suggestion on this thread about Ceroc actively targeting competitors for takeover or to put them out of business.

The statement was that Ceroc, like many other businesses was looking to grow by acquisition aswell as by organic growth. No dark motives were suggested.


I've seen all the fantastic dancers you mention (Amir, Viktor, Nina, Nigel, DavidB) at Ceroc run freestyle events in the last year. If it's good enough for you and for them, it's good enough for me.?
Yup ... I know that many of the Jango lot frequent events run by the like sof Billco, Dan etc. They are good venues and people have a good time. However, not all Ceroc venues are equally good ... but what does the likes of the above going to some Ceroc events and not to others got to do with this thread :confused: :confused:


I don't see this thread as adding anything other than attempting to stir up anti-Ceroc feelings! What's your real point Gus?Well ... i was going to be nice .... but after utter cr*p like this, why should I? Do yourself a favour, and the rest of us poor souls who have to read such drivel, and look what I've actualy said about Ceroc, and avoid making warped allegations. :angry:

Just becasue I dont think that the sun shines out of every orrifice that Ceroc(tm) has, does NOT mean I think its the spawn of satan. I think Ceroc is a great thing for the advancement of MJ .... my main concern is that I don't subscribe to the view that dominance of the market is in the best interests of all dancers ... I fear the 'Microsoft' syndrome.

Swinging bee
22nd-July-2005, 09:19 AM
Just becasue I dont think that the sun shines out of every orrifice that Ceroc(tm) has, does NOT mean I think its the spawn of satan. I think Ceroc is a great thing for the advancement of MJ .... my main concern is that I don't subscribe to the view that dominance of the market is in the best interests of all dancers ... I fear the 'Microsoft' syndrome.
__________________




I concur with everything you say on this...BIGGEST IS NOT ALWAYS BEST!...

El Salsero Gringo
22nd-July-2005, 09:42 AM
The statement was that Ceroc, like many other businesses was looking to grow by acquisition aswell as by organic growth. No dark motives were suggested.
...
Do yourself a favour, and the rest of us poor souls who have to read such drivel, and look what I've actualy said about Ceroc, and avoid making warped allegations. :angry:
OK, Let's do that:

...UK dominance...
...assimilated...
...demised ( :( ) [your smiley]
...'negotiated with'... [your 'ironic' quotes]
...a small enclave...

[Cut to clip of Mike Ellard in a Darth Vader mask:]
"Katy Baxter - you are part of a rebel alliance and a traitor! Take her away!"OK, I made up that last bit - but your language is revealing in its negativity. If you aren't having a 'stir' at Ceroc then I don't know what point you are making.

As for avoiding drivel, not everyone shares your assessment of which posts on this thread are worth reading.

MartinHarper
22nd-July-2005, 09:49 AM
I wonder how many of the people that have been named as independant teachers would be dancing today if it wasn't for Ceroc.....

Well, it's pure speculation, of course, but I suspect most of them would be dancing - though perhaps dancing something other than modern jive.

I like to have lots of variation in music, teaching style, dancing style, and so forth. Insofar as Ceroc "domination" reduces that variety, I am against it.

Lynn
22nd-July-2005, 10:15 AM
I think with a Ceroc night you should get a well organised, well run evening, with a tried and tested forumla that's great for introducing new dancers to MJ. More Ceroc venues means more choice for dancers and I think they have a major contribution to getting new dancers to MJ.

Re Ceroc buying over other venues/organisations - if the venue is just average, Ceroc may improve things for customers. If it is a high standard already, Ceroc will have to work hard to retain those customers.

But if Ceroc really were the only people teaching MJ or running MJ events (and I don't see that ever happening) then the incentive to maintain standards to retain customers would not be there. The customer would have no choice and when this happens its the customer who suffers.

So as I see it, the two advantages in there being both Ceroc and independants operating in the field of MJ

- more competition will result in consistently good 'products'
- more scope for variety and diversification of events - ie new styles (easier for an independant to offer a specialised product) and other types of events - eg weekenders. (How many weekenders are there? What is the total number of people going to these? How many of these are Ceroc events? Would there be the same range and choice of weekenders across the UK if Ceroc were the only people running weekenders? And I'm referring to 'total package' weekenders that include accomodation and therefore are aiming at beyond the local area).

El Salsero Gringo
22nd-July-2005, 10:38 AM
But if Ceroc really were the only people teaching MJ or running MJ events (and I don't see that ever happening) then the incentive to maintain standards to retain customers would not be there. The customer would have no choice and when this happens its the customer who suffers. A nationwide Ceroc presence would be the best thing possible for choice amongst dancers.

Dancing Ceroc does not disqualify you from dancing LeRoc, LeBop - or any other form of MJ. There's no brand lock in (which is why the situation is ENTIRELY different to Microsoft's monopoly). On any evening you can go to which ever class you prefer, on a whim.

It's entirely the customers' choice as to whether independent classes survive or perish. There's *no* entry barrier to anyone wanting to set up a dance class and it's not the case that Ceroc can negotiate a better price from its suppliers like a dominant retailer can - it has no bulk suppliers. And competition is at a strictly local venue-to-venue level.

If your class competes with Ceroc and loses out - it's because your class isn't good enough. Simple as that. If your class is better than the local Ceroc night - then the Ceroc night will lose customers to you.

More Ceroc venues means more MJ dancers on a national scale which means that there's more opportunity for independent weekenders - not less.

Lynn
22nd-July-2005, 10:55 AM
If your class competes with Ceroc and loses out - it's because your class isn't good enough. Simple as that. If your class is better than the local Ceroc night - then the Ceroc night will lose customers to you.

More Ceroc venues means more MJ dancers on a national scale which means that there's more opportunity for independent weekenders - not less.I didn't say there would be less opportunity for weekenders - not sure if you are disagreeing here - though everything you said is more or less what I just said so I guess not!

There would be no choice if Ceroc were the only organisation running MJ events, but I don't see that ever happening.

And can someone dig that poor donkey/mule/ass (delete as appropriate) out of the ground before we have to call an animal welfare agency!

Trish
22nd-July-2005, 11:48 AM
I think Ceroc has an excellent format for a normal class night, the organisation of the classes is very good, and the standard of teaching I've come across is fine, and sometime very inspiring. So I don't have much of a problem with them taking over the UK to teach the basic and intermediate stuff, and their freestyles (at least in my area) are enjoyable.

The only thing I hope is that they learn something from the people that run the weekenders. I don't know whether Ceroc would think to negotiate a take over of weekenders such as Camber or Southport, but I'd personally be surprised if they had the diversity of teachers to teach all the different styles that you can learn now. They are obviously trying to branch out, as there have been other styles, such as ballroom or blues offered recently by Ceroc, but I'm not convinced that MOST Ceroc teachers would be able to teach MJ, Lindy, Blues, Aerials etc etc, in the way that say Nigel and Nina would be able to, so this bothers me a bit. It would be a shame if teachers that were ex-Ceroc were not allowed to teach if weekenders were run by Ceroc, just because they had decided to go independent. I don't know if this is likely to happen, but actually I hope Ceroc stick to what they do best, which is in my opinion the regular class nights and freestyles.

Andy McGregor
22nd-July-2005, 12:17 PM
Independents are great, but typically only open classes where there is already a successfull Ceroc class, and perceive a market for their own variation. Speaking as an independent operator who started partner dancing before Ceroc started. And as someone who never even went to a Ceroc class 'til he'd been doing modern jive for a year I think I'm an example of how this is not always true. And I'm sure there are plenty of MJ dancers in Bristol who have never even heard of Ceroc.

I can also say that very few, if any, of the regular dancers at our classes learnt to dance at Ceroc - or any other place but ours. We have a few people coming who learnt MJ with another independent operator - and after some remedial work they can even join in with our intermediate lessons :whistle:



Very few have the vision, training or funds to develop new areas.There may be the dancing equivalent of greenfield sites in Scotland but down here in the South East most towns have one or more MJ class - and those that don't have one within an easy drive. So what we do down here is compete on quality. People have a choice of classes. They base their choice on many factors and those factors might even change as they mature as dancers. For every class to be a Ceroc class would result in dancers having no choice, people would be given what Ceroc thinks they need/want - for some reason I find myself thinking of red rather than orange;

Then raise the scarlet standard high,
Within its shade we'll live and die,
Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
We'll keep the red flag flying here.

Although it will need a bit of a rewrite as the two syllables and a diphthong of 'orange' don't work in place of 'red'. :devil:

El Salsero Gringo
22nd-July-2005, 12:46 PM
For every class to be a Ceroc class would result in dancers having no choice, people would be given what Ceroc thinks they need/want - for some reason I find myself thinking of red rather than orangeYou talk as though Ceroc can prevent independent classes from opening, or force them to close. Short of subsidising individual franchisees to run at a loss in order to close competing venues (are you suggesting that Ceroc do that?) what mechanism does Ceroc have to maintain a monopoly, apart from maintaining higher standards than those of which independents are capable?

ChrisA
22nd-July-2005, 12:55 PM
If your class competes with Ceroc and loses out - it's because your class isn't good enough. Simple as that. If your class is better than the local Ceroc night - then the Ceroc night will lose customers to you.

This doesn't follow, of course.

It may be true, all other things being equal... but if one organisation's marketing is more effective than another's then the one that wins out doesn't have to be better at all, it just has to be better known for long enough for the opposition to fold.

There's not much marketing of non-Ceroc events here any more, is there? I'll be interested to see what happens when the existing "commercial operators" paid year expires. :whistle:

Franck
22nd-July-2005, 12:55 PM
There may be the dancing equivalent of greenfield sites in Scotland but down here in the South East most towns have one or more MJ class - and those that don't have one within an easy drive. So what we do down here is compete on quality. People have a choice of classes. I think that was my point. London and the South already have a bright orange presence in most towns / areas, and the sheer numbers of independents (yourself included) shows that Ceroc has not stifled competition. It seems indeed to have inspired it. There are however many 'greenfield' areas left in the UK and apart from Ceroc, nobody has the drive / resources or vision to develop them. Launching a new MJ class in a new territory takes a lot of financial, and time investment, few people are willing to take the risk. Once a market is established however, as Lynn and ESG pointed out, there are very few barriers to entry and anyone can open up a class and from then on, compete on quality / or variety of offerings.
As Lou pointed out, Leroc is not an organisation, and each Leroc teacher is only interested in their own local class / competition, so as a result, there is no drive to paint the map (insert leroc colour here).


Just becasue I dont think that the sun shines out of every orrifice that Ceroc(tm) has, does NOT mean I think its the spawn of satan. I think Ceroc is a great thing for the advancement of MJ .... my main concern is that I don't subscribe to the view that dominance of the market is in the best interests of all dancers ... I fear the 'Microsoft' syndrome. I concur with everything you say on this...BIGGEST IS NOT ALWAYS BEST!...Well, ESG already answered the Microsoft comment, Ceroc don't force you to commit to only dancing its own brand and there is no financial fallout for switching to another class.
To answer Swinging Bee, biggest is not always best, but neither is smaller. There are some inspired teachers out there who run independent classes, but there are many who don't have either inspiration, training or skill.
A large organisation like Ceroc can allow franchisees and individual teachers to develop new concepts, and trial them first before offering them to the network. This has resulted in many innovations in the last few years. Moves get shared (and often improved), the format of classes was changed and improved based on solid feedback, new ideas and marketing can be coordinated, etc...
The converse is that an independent teacher (and let's assume that he/she is one of the rare excellent ones) will launch a class offering a great product in his area, if they are a good business person, they will be successful in their area, but nothing beyond that. All the innovation will be lost and unavailable to the rest of the dancers who don't know about it or are too far to attend. So great news for the few dozens who used to go to Hipsters and now go to Jango etc... but a pity for the rest of us. Thankfully, Ceroc are able to take on good ideas (from independents as well as their own teachers) and are able to spread them across all classes.
I realise that not all classes are moving at the same speed, but slow speed is still better than no progress at all!

Gus
22nd-July-2005, 12:55 PM
You talk as though Ceroc can prevent independent classes from opening, or force them to close. Short of subsidising individual franchisees to run at a loss in order to close competing venues (are you suggesting that Ceroc do that?) what mechanism does Ceroc have to maintain a monopoly, apart from maintaining higher standards than those of which independents are capable?
There have been a number of weel discussed incidenst where rival opertors have fought turf wars (quite literally if legend is to be believed). Nasty tricks have been used on both sides. HOWEVER, all this has been discussed before, BESG, ie Before ESG) and I dont think there would be any use served in examining those entrails again. Just take it as read .. more goes on in MJ than you are ever liekly to see one the surface, especialy if you are a Ceroc evangalist :whistle: If you want a REAL view, speak to Will. Will is about as pro-Ceroc as you can get, yet he does so being in possesion of the real facts of what has and is going on .... hence the fact I respect his position though I may not agree with it.

Andy McGregor
22nd-July-2005, 01:20 PM
You talk as though Ceroc can prevent independent classes from opening, or force them to close. Short of subsidising individual franchisees to run at a loss in order to close competing venues (are you suggesting that Ceroc do that?) what mechanism does Ceroc have to maintain a monopoly, apart from maintaining higher standards than those of which independents are capable?I "talk" (write?) as though I'm contributing to a thread about "Ceroc - UK Domination". We're debating the improbable future where every MJ outlet is a Ceroc franchise.

Speaking as an independent operator who considered going the Ceroc route I can tell you the main reasons I decided against were the lack of freedom about what you do/teach, the ferocious competition between some Ceroc franchisees and, of course, that bouncy hand ...

Franck may be in the lucky situation where his neighbouring Ceroc franchisees work together. I've seen the opposite where the next door franchisee sets up nights just over the border to kill off a Ceroc night belonging to another, smaller, Ceroc franchisee :mad:

El Salsero Gringo
22nd-July-2005, 01:23 PM
There have been a number of weel discussed incidenst where rival opertors have fought turf wars (quite literally if legend is to be believed). Nasty tricks have been used on both sides. HOWEVER, all this has been discussed before, BESG, ie Before ESG) and I dont think there would be any use served in examining those entrails again. Just take it as read .. more goes on in MJ than you are ever liekly to see one the surface, especialy if you are a Ceroc evangalist :whistle: If you want a REAL view, speak to Will. Will is about as pro-Ceroc as you can get, yet he does so being in possesion of the real facts of what has and is going on .... hence the fact I respect his position though I may not agree with it.I've heard and read a lot about turf wars between operators in the past - especially around the Brighton area. Nonetheless, the question is still open:

What mechanism do you suggest Ceroc Enterprises Ltd has to use it's dominant position in the UK to gain a monopoly for its local franchisees over local competition?

Given that outside of London, it's Ceroc franchisee vs. a local independent operator, how does the Ceroc franchisee use the muscle of his/her parent organisation to gain a competitive advantage? I'm honestly interested in the answer, please. All I can think of at the moment is Mike Ellard sending Bradders off with a minibus full of beefy taxi dancers to some rival operators venue, all equipped with baseball bats. But somehow I think that's not quite their style.

So it's an honest question and it isn't remotely answered by dark mutterings about "what you see on the surface" or who I should speak to, to get a "REAL view", or the "real facts about what has and is going on ...". If you have something to say on the subject then please, say it.

And by the way, just because a subject was discussed before I started to post here doesn't mean I haven't read the threads.

Chef
22nd-July-2005, 01:23 PM
You talk as though Ceroc can prevent independent classes from opening, or force them to close. Short of subsidising individual franchisees to run at a loss in order to close competing venues (are you suggesting that Ceroc do that?) what mechanism does Ceroc have to maintain a monopoly, apart from maintaining higher standards than those of which independents are capable?

In my experience the ususal tactic is to wait until the independant operator has established an interest in MJ in a particular area and then open a venue on their doorstep either on the same night of the week or the preceeding or suceeding night.

You don't have to pull away that much of an independant operators clients for the venue to be running at a loss. Ceroc Franchises are larger and more able to sustain the "burn rate" of running at a loss than the one or two venue independants.

I am not saying anything bad about Ceroc. Their teaching is of a high and consistent quality and their running of events slick and professional. They are just like any other business in the way that they deal with competition. Look at Tesco, for example. They open a huge store on the edge of a town and everybody flocks to the easy parking and the huge variety of good quality goods all in one place. The small independant butchers, bakers and candlestick makers in town with horrendous parking outside their shops go out of business leaving a city centre full of charity shops. For the consumer this is, on the whole not a major loss, until one day you decide that you want something that is not in Tescos and you find that there is no other choice of store.

So if you are happy with what Ceroc are giving you then everything is utterly fine. If you want something that is quite unique like Jango, Hipsters, WCS, etc then you can find it because these are sufficiently different from Ceroc for Ceroc not to be eyeing them up as a potential source of customers. They seem happy to live and let live.

The independant operators that are very vunerable are the ones that are those that are selling something that is almost like Ceroc (to the point where most people wouldn't know the difference) so that Ceroc can open up near them, slice out enough customers to make them no longer profitable, and take the hit until the independant operator goes bust or decides that resistance is futile and sells out.

The independant has done the hard work of establishing an interest in MJ in a place that was previously not served and built up the numbers, establishing a market where there was none before. They may well be aggreived that Ceroc comes along and pushes them out of a market that they established. Life is tough and business is tougher.

To summarise.

Ceroc has its ways, like any other business, of making life uncomfortable for businesses smaller than themselves and can use their size to put up with the pain for longer than the smaller business.

Around any core business there will be niche operators offering something truly unique. The core business will leave them alone because they don't either have the interest (because the market is small) or skills. The "ME TOO" business are a small loss while the ones with a unique selling point are a much greater loss (they usually down size and carry a niche market with them).

El Salsero Gringo
22nd-July-2005, 01:26 PM
I "talk" (write?) as though I'm contributing to a thread about "Ceroc - UK Domination". We're debating the improbable future where every MJ outlet is a Ceroc franchise.Yes - and I'm asking how you imagine we might end up in that situation unless every Ceroc franchise offers a higher quality product than any competing independent operator. Otherwise we might as well debate "Ceroc domination on Mars" and it would be just as plausible.

El Salsero Gringo
22nd-July-2005, 01:35 PM
Ceroc Franchises are larger and more able to sustain the "burn rate" of running at a loss than the one or two venue independants.Can you justify this statement? Some franchises are single venues. If a large franchise is cross-subsidising, then it's the franchise that is at fault, not Ceroc Enterprises.

Look at Tesco, for example.Tesco negotiates aggressive discounts with its suppliers that it is then able to pass on to its customers. Tesco would never have been able to supplant high-street shops if its products were not in the first instance, cheaper. I cannot see how Ceroc Enterprises can pass that same kind of benefit on to its franchises.
The independant has done the hard work of establishing an interest in MJ in a place that was previously not served and built up the numbers, establishing a market where there was none before. They may well be aggreived that Ceroc comes along and pushes them out of a market that they established.Where do you know that this exact scenario has happened?
Ceroc has its ways, like any other business, of making life uncomfortable for businesses smaller than themselves and can use their size to put up with the pain for longer than the smaller business.Aargh. Yes, but HOW? Each Ceroc franchise is a separate business, and doesn't as far as I know get subsidised by Ceroc. In fact, because of the franchising fee, each Ceroc night is at a disadvantage to every independent operator who keeps 100% of their door money.

So to summarize: lots of innuendo, lots of talk about large organisations being anti-competitive, but no real substance to that argument yet.

Franck
22nd-July-2005, 01:37 PM
In my experience the ususal tactic is to wait until the independant operator has established an interest in MJ in a particular area and then open a venue on their doorstep either on the same night of the week or the preceeding or suceeding night.

You don't have to pull away that much of an independant operators clients for the venue to be running at a loss. Ceroc Franchises are larger and more able to sustain the "burn rate" of running at a loss than the one or two venue independants.I really don't think that is accurate. Any Ceroc franchise is not intrinsically larger or better funded than an independent. There is no fund that we can dip into if we run at a loss, and many Ceroc franchises have closed venues after losing money for a while.
In fact most independents do not intend to make a profit on their night, but want to either offer something different, or usually get involved in the 'glamourous' world of dance classes... The costs for Ceroc franchisees are usually higher than independents as they have to pay a franchise fee, fund taxi-dancers, train teachers, etc... So in theory, any independent would have a financial head-start on a Franchisee.
I am not arguing that some Ceroc franchises or independents have not used ruthless business tactics in the past, I'm sure they have, simply that there is no built-in strength or ability to 'sustain the "burn rate" you mention.

In my experience the ususal tactic is to wait until the independant operator has established an interest in MJ in a particular area and then open a venue on their doorstep either on the same night of the week or the preceeding or suceeding night.Interesting as I have noticed the exact opposite, so it seems there is a marked difference between the South-east and the rest of the U.K.
It might be that as Andy McGregor says, there are no real 'undeveloped' areas down South.

Andy McGregor
22nd-July-2005, 02:10 PM
There seems to be a question popping up on this thread. That question is "how could Ceroc push out the small independent operator?". The answer is that Ceroc franchisees can take a long-term view. Consider a Ceroc Franchisee who has 10 venues already. Let's say they decide to set up in a town which only has independent operators. Of course Ceroc need to come in and establish themselves quickly - but they can take a longer term view with their business plan than the independent operator. As their overall operation makes a large profit they can sustain a loss-making venue for longer than an independent with one or two venues. That Ceroc Franchisee can advertise more heavily and for longer than the local guy because the funding comes from the established Ceroc venues. The Ceroc Franchisee can use price promotion for longer because he doesn't depend on the income from that one venue to cover his overheads. This is classic business studies in action. Maybe someone should do their PhD project on it.

El Salsero Gringo
22nd-July-2005, 02:16 PM
There seems to be a question popping up on this thread. That question is "how could Ceroc push out the small independent operator?". The answer is that Ceroc franchisees can take a long-term view. Consider a Ceroc Franchisee who has 10 venues already. Let's say they decide to set up in a town which only has independent operators. Of course Ceroc need to come in and establish themselves quickly - but they can take a longer term view with their business plan than the independent operator. As their overall operation makes a large profit they can sustain a loss-making venue for longer than an independent with one or two venues. That Ceroc Franchisee can advertise more heavily and for longer than the local guy because the funding comes from the established Ceroc venues. The Ceroc Franchisee can use price promotion for longer because he doesn't depend on the income from that one venue to cover his overheads. This is classic business studies in action. Maybe someone should do their PhD project on it.Right then. So your (potential) beef isn't with Ceroc Enterprises (which outside of London operates no venues) - or with the Ceroc 'product'. It's with large Ceroc franchises who have the power to cross-subsidise their own evenngs.

Does that mean you'd have the same sympathy for a single-venue Ceroc franchisee who was being run out of town by a 10-venue independent operator using the same tactics should that situation occur?

Where do you know of by the way, where a large Ceroc franchise has used this tactic?

Andy McGregor
22nd-July-2005, 02:43 PM
Right then. So your (potential) beef isn't with Ceroc Enterprises (which outside of London operates no venues) - or with the Ceroc 'product'. It's with large Ceroc franchises who have the power to cross-subsidise their own evenngs. I have no beef at all. When I've got 10 venues it's what I'm going to do :wink:


Does that mean you'd have the same sympathy for a single-venue Ceroc franchisee who was being run out of town by a 10-venue independent operator using the same tactics should that situation occur?Of course I have sympathy. In the same way I have sympathy for the small DIY store that has to close when B&Q or Homebase open up in town. It's progress. What the small DIY store guy needs to do is change career or apply for a job in the B&Q.


Where do you know of by the way, where a large Ceroc franchise has used this tactic?I could say but I don't think it would stay posted for long :wink:

Chef
22nd-July-2005, 02:48 PM
I really don't think that is accurate. Any Ceroc franchise is not intrinsically larger or better funded than an independent. There is no fund that we can dip into if we run at a loss, and many Ceroc franchises have closed venues after losing money for a while.

Franck. You are in a much better position to comment (being on the inside) than me. I am just a punter that knows and talks to a number of independant operators. So I only know their feelings and what I see. The simple thing is that if another operator who has 7 profitable venues opens a competing venue near your one venue (making both the competing venues unprofitable) then you still have the situation with the larger operator making money from 7 venues and a loss at one venue while the independant is only making a loss that their one venue. Survival is then only a question of who runs out of money or faith first. Sometimes Ceroc has given up first and sometimes the independant has.


In fact most independents do not intend to make a profit on their night, but want to either offer something different, or usually get involved in the 'glamourous' world of dance classes... The costs for Ceroc franchisees are usually higher than independents as they have to pay a franchise fee, fund taxi-dancers, train teachers, etc... So in theory, any independent would have a financial head-start on a Franchisee.

Yes, Oh yes, I have seen my share of people doing MJ lessons because they like the air of "glamour". A lot have started because they are fed up of themselves and their friends having to drive 20 miles to get to a class and eventually think "why don't I just do my own". Because the independants have a financial head start (I can see your point in this respect) they can start dance classes in areas that have no previously proven and established clientele. They sustain the losses while building the business up out of their own private means for reasons as varied as the people themselves. The taxi dancers are usually partners, wifes, friends at the start and then they are drawn from the clientele in the same way as Ceroc does.


I am not arguing that some Ceroc franchises or independents have not used ruthless business tactics in the past, I'm sure they have, simply that there is no built-in strength or ability to 'sustain the "burn rate" you mention.

Well Franck, as I said, you are in a better position to know as you are doing this stuff for real. Most business I know use their profitable units to shore up their unprofitable ones provided they are convinced that the unprofitable one can be turned into profitablity within a reasonable time (either by competion going out of business, or what was wrong internally being put right). To me, the competition amongst all parties can look pretty ruthless down here and it is not always Ceroc that is at the centre of the scrapping.


Interesting as I have noticed the exact opposite, so it seems there is a marked difference between the South-east and the rest of the U.K.
It might be that as Andy McGregor says, there are no real 'undeveloped' areas down South.

It also seems toto me that there are few undeveloped areas down here. Some people from less well served parts of the country are quite envious when I tell them that I can dance in at least 3 places within 1 hours drive or where I live every night of the week. I am envious of the people that live in London because of the quality and variety of dance events they can go to. Londons population density can support those nobers and variety.

I never argued for or against Ceroc or independants. I just remarked that competition was pretty tough everywhere and there was always a place for a product with a unique selling point. If there was only Ceroc then I would feel pretty sad about that because Ceroc doesn't fullfill everything that I want from MJ. I quite like the "something different" that some independants bring to the MJ scene.

Some operators have at sometime engaged in activities that I feel are "dishonourable" at some time. One thing is for sure. Business is tough and it is no place for amateurs. I certainly enjoy being just a punter, paying my money, enjoying my dancing without being beholding to any one organisation and letting all the "politics" crap go over my head.

Andy McGregor
22nd-July-2005, 02:58 PM
and letting all the "politics" crap go over my head.Along with a number of fairly willing partners :sick:

Franck
22nd-July-2005, 03:05 PM
Well Franck, as I said, you are in a better position to know as you are doing this stuff for real. Most business I know use their profitable units to shore up their unprofitable ones provided they are convinced that the unprofitable one can be turned into profitablity within a reasonable time (either by competion going out of business, or what was wrong internally being put right). To me, the competition amongst all parties can look pretty ruthless down here and it is not always Ceroc that is at the centre of the scrapping.It seems we agree, Ceroc is not the source of the problem. Ethical / non ethical business practises are the crux. Ceroc is an organization of individual Franchisees, so in that respect cover a spectrum of attitudes to business. I believe being part of Ceroc helps me offer higher quality and expertise at all my nights, but doesn't not give me an immediate business advantage.
Andy McGregor intends to dominate his own geographic area by stifling competition once he becomes large enough, which might work for him, but personally, I invest profits from my existing nights into opening new venues in areas where there is little or no dancing!

Paul F
22nd-July-2005, 03:11 PM
I quite like the "something different" that some independants bring to the MJ scene.

.

I was wondering exactly what this statement means. It has been used a lot and Im still unsure.

Could you give me an example of what an independant operator has brought to the MJ world in recent past? Im not asking to make a point I genuinely want to know.

Of course lets not forget that Ceroc would, i imagine, only be looking to absorb those who operate in the same manner.

Speaking from a point of view of a dancer living in the North of England (East and West) I can safely say I dont know of any independant operator that has brought anything new at all. They are all doing pretty much the same thing!

A couple of organisations tried advanced classes to no avail but aside from that what would people lose if they were gobbled up by the Ceroc independant-eating machine :D

MartinHarper
22nd-July-2005, 03:35 PM
Could you give me an example of what an independant operator has brought to the MJ world in recent past?

Well, as a simple example of "something different", Bristol's Leroc hideaways allegedly teach footwork, where Ceroc doesn't.

Meanwhile Gloucestershire now has two independants teaching MJ/Swing mixes - they have a different approach to Ceroc.

I really should get round to going to the Blitz class in Birmingham and see what that's like.

Chef
22nd-July-2005, 03:50 PM
I was wondering exactly what this statement means. It has been used a lot and Im still unsure.

Could you give me an example of what an independant operator has brought to the MJ world in recent past? Im not asking to make a point I genuinely want to know.

Rebel Roc was an independant operator and brought WCS dancers and latin american dancers Rebel Yell (I day event). That was a new revelation for me at the time. Jump and Jive brought me Nigel and Nina which brought blues dancing and my first real understanding of lead, follow, timing, precision, musicality, performance - also Andy and Rena introduced me to airsteps and the concept of "smooth lindy". Mikey at Brighton introduced me to "strictly sinful" - I don't like it myself but it is sure different. Latin dance styling came to me from the independants and made its way into Ceroc in a much smaller way some 9 month later. The fusion of Jive and Tango was brought to me by Amir when he cme to the UK some 3-4 years ago. The music you get at a Jango night (from TWK) is most unlike anything you would hear at a Ceroc venue. James and Bridget HAmilton introduced me to the idea that the man can dance and spin as well instead of just standing about waving his arms with a woman in close proximity - they also introduced crossovers from jazz and lindy dancing. Nelson and Karen Rose from Exeter introduced to me the idea that old musicals were great places to look for dance (as well as too many other things to list). Viktor for body styling and the focus being on the woman. I could go on.


Speaking from a point of view of a dancer living in the North of England (East and West) I can safely say I dont know of any independant operator that has brought anything new at all. They are all doing pretty much the same thing!

I don't know your area of the world very well but I do know of one person who is operating independantly in Huddersfield whose style of jive is much more music orientated, smoother, more geared towards slower and more soulful music. I am not saying that is better or worse than anything else just that it is nice to have the option of something different.


A couple of organisations tried advanced classes to no avail but aside from that what would people lose if they were gobbled up by the Ceroc independant-eating machine :D

Did you try these advanced classes? Did you learn anything new from them? Did you dance to their new and challenging music? Did it make you uncomfortable being out of your comfort zone or did it make you feel exhilerated?

Slightly at a tangent to the thread. I recently went to Southport weekender for the first time. I must say that I although there were teachers there that I really enjoyed they were mostly the ones that I encounter down south. It did leave me wondering where all the innovatie teachers from the north of the country were? It was one of the reasons that I travelled all that way to discover the new teachers and new dancers and apart from the northern dancers it felt like the south had be transplanted to the north.

Trying new things is always exhilerating for me. That is why I am a research scientist.

Paul F
22nd-July-2005, 04:01 PM
........lots.......

I see. That sounds pretty good. It is interesting to know what all these companies actually do as I dont really get chance to get down there much.

:cheers:

Gus
22nd-July-2005, 04:09 PM
Speaking from a point of view of a dancer living in the North of England (East and West) I can safely say I dont know of any independant operator that has brought anything new at all. They are all doing pretty much the same thing!Errr ... what about Sue Freeman, one of the finest dnacers to grace a MJ floor? Cool Catz has attempted to be imitated but never matched in its short but beautiful life ( :cool: ). Dont forget that its been the non-Ceroc clubs that have been trying to push Blues and WCS dancing in the region as well. AND before anyone flames me for stuff I havent said, I'll be the first to say that the standard of teaching at Ceroc venues in the N West beats any compeititor organisation (with the exception of Sue F of course :flower: )

Andy McGregor
22nd-July-2005, 05:01 PM
Andy McGregor intends to dominate his own geographic area by stifling competition once he becomes large enough, which might work for him, but personally, I invest profits from my existing nights into opening new venues in areas where there is little or no dancing!What I intend to do is operate normal business practice. Organic growth requires that I invest the income from the profitable parts of my business to develop and grow the business. You need to do that whether you are entering an area unopposed or with existing and competing businesses. And when you compete you don't do it with one hand tied behind your back. - you use every method legally available to you. To do less would be to sell your business short.

Franck has talked about investing in developing Ceroc in new areas. The funding from this must come from somewhere - is it the income from other nights?

Franck
22nd-July-2005, 05:50 PM
Franck has talked about investing in developing Ceroc in new areas. The funding from this must come from somewhere - is it the income from other nights?
personally, I invest profits from my existing nights into opening new venues in areas where there is little or no dancing!As I said in the bit you quoted from my post, I do indeed use profits from established nights to open new areas. In some cases it might take years of substantial losses to get a night off the ground. It took 2 years for Aberdeen and Dundee, for example. Dundee and Aberdeen are now doing well and are funding the newer nights like Stirling, Perth and soon Inverness.

animaltalk
22nd-July-2005, 06:56 PM
Rebel Roc. . . . etc etc

Fab couple of posts, very well expressed. Kind of what I was trying to say just much more eloquently done

NTV
rep

Andy McGregor
22nd-July-2005, 07:02 PM
Andy McGregor intends to dominate his own geographic area by stifling competition once he becomes large enough, which might work for him, but personally, I invest profits from my existing nights into opening new venues in areas where there is little or no dancing!If Franck could find an area within 50 miles of my home where there is little or no MJ I'll invest there - although not 180 of the 50 miles around my house that is the English Channel ...

Whitebeard
22nd-July-2005, 11:28 PM
Well, as a simple example of "something different", Bristol's Leroc hideaways allegedly teach footwork, where Ceroc doesn't.
Yeah; at one time that really did worry me - but, these days, those feet really do just seem to pretty well look after themselves. And Bristol is just too far away to register on my radar.



Meanwhile Gloucestershire now has two independants teaching MJ/Swing mixes - they have a different approach to Ceroc. [
Yeah; though both entice with the modern jive for the beginners, but, starting at intermediate, diverge into the speciality of lindy-hop. Not sure of the difference, but that dreaded hand bounce was only too evident at the classes I attended. And, it really isn't too clever to run those classes on the same nights as the Ceroc nights. Ceroc is always going to win on the "buzz" bestowed by greater numbers, the culture of encouraging the "ladies to ask", and, though I hate to acknowledge this, the greater variety of music.

Whitebeard
23rd-July-2005, 12:00 AM
Ceroc is always going to win on the "buzz" bestowed by greater numbers, the culture of encouraging the "ladies to ask", and, though I hate to acknowledge this, the greater variety of music. And, I forgot to mention, the teacher, the DJ, and the taxi dancers, really do make an effort to seek out the beginners (particularly the ladies) and introduce them to joys of dancing. As a man, I do, sometimes, feel a little bit neglected.

Andy McGregor
23rd-July-2005, 01:01 PM
Meanwhile Gloucestershire now has two independants teaching MJ/Swing mixes - they have a different approach to Ceroc.MJ/Swing mix? And how is that different from the MJ that's taught everywhere? MJ takes as many moves from swing as can be made to fit the music. MJ is a tart, it will take what it can from any other dance style and fit it to modern music that's 4 beats to the bar.

Of course, some MJ classes choose to teach more moves that have been borrowed from swing and some MJ classes teach more moves that have been borrowed from latin or some other dance, but they are all MJ. They are not an MJ/Swing mix, or an MJ/Tango mix or any other thing, they are MJ. It might be that the teacher chooses to teach more of the moves that have come from a particular style, but the dance is still Modern Jive. At least that's what I think, but you didn't expect me to agree with Martin Harper, did you? :devil:

Lou
23rd-July-2005, 01:11 PM
At least that's what I think, but you didn't expect me to agree with Martin Harper, did you? :devil: :rofl: Errmmm... I think Martin was referring to his local JazzJive (as opposed to Modern Jive) classes. :wink:

Mr Cool
23rd-July-2005, 05:37 PM
[QUOTE=Andy McGregor]MJ/Swing mix? And how is that different from the MJ that's taught everywhere? MJ takes as many moves from swing as can be made to fit the music. MJ is a tart, it will take what it can from any other dance style and fit it to modern music that's 4 beats to the bar.

Nothing wrong in stealing moves from where ever, the whole dance community have always done it. Swing steals MJ moves too I have seen the likes of Graham and Ann (hopping mad) Gary Boon and even the great Ryan Francois re mixing MJ To fit Swing. By the way i think Ceroc is taking over in Gloucestershire mores the pity, as I think the Rock dance company headed by James Hamilton teach a nice smooth style of swing which is difficult to find. :waycool: :waycool: :waycool: :waycool:

bigdjiver
24th-July-2005, 01:09 AM
If Franck could find an area within 50 miles of my home where there is little or no MJ I'll invest there - although not 180 of the 50 miles around my house that is the English Channel ...If asked "What makes a successful venue" one might reply "experienced dancers willing to help newcomers." In that light, setting up a new venue in virgin territory is not a good idea.

Ceroc should be able to datamine its database to discover how attendance varies with travel time from a venue. It should be able to draw a contour map of the area around its venues of members and their attendances. It should be able to guess that members of competing venues have the same pattern, and estimate the known potential of those areas. The place to look for the location of a new venue would be just beyond the peaks on the map. You do not want to lose too many existing members to the new venue, or draw members away from a developing venue back to the more established one, both of which can happen if they are too close.

The ability to develop and use such statistical resources depends a lot on the size of the organisation, and is one reason why a larger organisation should be able to grow much faster than a smaller one. These are the sorts of business services that a franchise organisation should be able to deliver to its members.

Ceroc has missed a trick by not asking for dance history on its membership form. If the people coming from distance are new to dance classes, or new to MJ, then the reason that they did not come back may be because MJ is not for them. They are unlikely to attend a new venue. On the other hand if they are experienced MJ'ers who were perhaps looking for a second night, but deterred by travel distance, then a new venue on their doorstep would be just what they wished for, and their experience would be just what the venue requires.

bigdjiver
15th-August-2005, 02:41 AM
... I invest profits from my existing nights into opening new venues in areas where there is little or no dancing!One mathematical model that might be applied to MJ is forest growth. The existing trees prepare the ground, then drop their seed into it. The forest grows from its edges.

Other models hat might be useful for MJ are epidemiology (the spread of disease) and memetics (cultural behaviours). These concern things that are transmitted from one person to another.

If one considers MJ as a "ease" (the opposite of a disease) or a "meme" (cultural behaviour) which is spread from one person to another, one might consider promoting a new, remote, venue by giving free admission passes to hairdressing businesses for use by staff or customers, perhaps with the promise of a free ad in your programme for every N members join using them.

Hairdressing involves lots of women in contact with women, with lots of time to chat, ideal for the transmission of an airborne "infection".

Lynn
15th-August-2005, 10:50 AM
Hairdressing involves lots of women in contact with women, with lots of time to chat, ideal for the transmission of an airborne "infection". ...and a dance venue with a big surplus of women!? :really: :sad:

Andy McGregor
15th-August-2005, 11:42 AM
Hairdressing involves lots of women in contact with women, with lots of time to chat, ideal for the transmission of an airborne "infection".I can only assume that bigdjiver is completely bald :whistle:

Most men go to the hairdresser or barber. And we usually get into conversation with the guy or girl cutting our hair. I still have enough hair to need it cutting - but my days are numbered :tears:

Donna
15th-August-2005, 11:47 AM
I can only assume that bigdjiver is completely bald :whistle:

Most men go to the hairdresser or barber. And we usually get into conversation with the guy or girl cutting our hair. I still have enough hair to need it cutting - but my days are numbered :tears:

:rofl: :rofl:

Lynn
15th-August-2005, 12:02 PM
I think the 'infection' method of spreading works best if the person spreading it has the full blown version of dance addiction. Otherwise people's natural resistance will be enough to withstand it.

bigdjiver
15th-August-2005, 12:09 PM
I can only assume that bigdjiver is completely bald :whistle:

Most men go to the hairdresser or barber. And we usually get into conversation with the guy or girl cutting our hair. I still have enough hair to need it cutting - but my days are numbered :tears:The barbers I use try to talk about cars or sport or the news. I suspect that if they started random conversations about dance that they would at least attract a different set of customers, and probably lose too many.

bigdjiver
15th-August-2005, 12:26 PM
I am a guy, what is wrong with a venue full of women?

My introductory free passes would read Admit 1 (or MF couple) free. I would also allocate such passes to the Taxi dancers to give out as "prizes" for promising beginners. I refute any allegations that I would expect a bias towards female Taxis, and them selectively giving prizes to the "better" guys. :whistle:

Andy McGregor
15th-August-2005, 12:43 PM
The barbers I use try to talk about cars or sport or the news. I suspect that if they started random conversations about dance that they would at least attract a different set of customers, and probably lose too many.But if they started conversations about the fabulous women they'd met at a dance class ...

bigdjiver
22nd-August-2005, 07:58 AM
But if they started conversations about the fabulous women they'd met at a dance class ...If Ceroc is to achieve UK domination it has to maximise its resources. With wit and work Ceroc members can find out where their nearest classes are, and can find out about accessible freestyles. It is not good business to rely on customers using their intelligence, and doing some work.
Working on a three month program seems a good idea to me. I think that the list of events should be given out as part of the beginners pack. I know any customer that wants one can pick one up, but that putting one more task onto a new member. Many do not pick them up. Many never return for a second bite. Ceroc is losing customers this way. Often new members are intending to be one-timers, coming when visiting a friend for example. They should go away with the knowledge that there imay be a more appropriate venue near them.
Ceroc, and Ceroc members, are losing out because members have to work to find out about freestyles in neighbouring franchises. Perhaps head office could supply a list of all freestyles in the quarter for giving out at all venues, and include the phone numbers and web sites of all franchises on it. This too could be given out as part of the beginners pack. This would be good marketing, both showing how big Ceroc is, and giving a tangible reminder to be perused away from the pressures of a first night.
Franchisees are often too competitive with each other, which costs them, Ceroc, and their customers. To minimise the prospect of losing freestyle customers to a neighbour I suggest that franchisees try to sync their freestyles.
One method would be to conceive of an imaginary clockface on their area. Divide the three months into 6 week periods. One the first week of the month have the freestyles at "12" or "1", second week at "2" or "3" third at "4" or "5", etc., going around the clockface twice in a quarter. By this method all of the freestyles will be synchronised to be as far away from each other as possible, and people in the South of one franchise have a good chance that there will be one in the North of a neghbouring one when "their" freestyle is furthest away.

bigdjiver
22nd-August-2005, 08:17 AM
To much rush - It would be adequate to provide regional lists of freestyles, and they should circulate around a franchise by adding 5 onto the imaginary clockface each week.

David Bailey
22nd-August-2005, 10:06 AM
{ snip lots of interesting points }
. Many never return for a second bite. Ceroc is losing customers this way. Often new members are intending to be one-timers, coming when visiting a friend for example. They should go away with the knowledge that there imay be a more appropriate venue near them.
Whatever else anyone says about CerocTM, and people say a lot, you can't accuse them of not putting effort into raising beginner retention levels - consolidation classes, totally word-for-word standardised teaching, etc.

Also, in most venues I know, you can't move without coming across dozens of leaflets extolling other venues, workshops, etc.


Franchisees are often too competitive with each other, which costs them, Ceroc, and their customers. To minimise the prospect of losing freestyle customers to a neighbour I suggest that franchisees try to sync their freestyles.
Now this is an interesting question. Especially for us Londoners, who have lots of different franchises in a relatively small area.

As a part-time self-appointed Taxi Dancer's rights activist (!), I can see the case for more synchronisation and coordination. Similarly, there may be some business advantages to more cooperation between franchises.

But as a full-time consumer, I have to say that on balance I prefer more competitiveness, as this generally leads to better-quality dance nights and venues. I'm a fickle dancer, and I'll flit from franchise to franchise to find a good venue. The only downside is when freestyle nights (Fri / Sat) clash - for example, last week, Cheshunt and Ashtons - and I want to go to both. But I prefer having too many dance venues to having too few.

djtrev
22nd-August-2005, 10:45 AM
Here in Norfolk we have one or two independants who are offering an alternative to Ceroc.Whereas Ceroc Anglia seem to concentrate on Norwich and Ipswich there is at least one operator who is trying very hard to take MJ out to a wider audience by opening venues not only within these areas but also outside of these areas.They deserve to succeed if only for the time and effort that they put into the scheme.

El Salsero Gringo
22nd-August-2005, 12:35 PM
One method would be to conceive of an imaginary clockface on their area. Divide the three months into 6 week periods. One the first week of the month have the freestyles at "12" or "1", second week at "2" or "3" third at "4" or "5", etc., going around the clockface twice in a quarter. By this method all of the freestyles will be synchronised to be as far away from each other as possible, and people in the South of one franchise have a good chance that there will be one in the North of a neghbouring one when "their" freestyle is furthest away.Boy, I thought *I* was the one with way too much time on their hands ... :whistle:

TiggsTours
23rd-August-2005, 05:11 PM
UK domination? That's not all!

Over the last couple of years there have been huge changes afoot. Its now being marketed as a mixture of salsa and jive (moved in on the Latin scene there) its started teaching ballroom, its taken over MJC and a number of other independent groups, and even started teaching Lindy Hop! Last Saturday at Fleet there were alot of the best Swing dancers in the UK, even the world, people who would not before have been seen gracing the door of any ceroc venue, no matter who was teaching!

Over the last couple of years its become bigger and bigger in Aus & NZ, its launched in Dubai, France and Italy, and reliable sources (very reliable) its now looking to launch in Spain and the US!

UK domination, I think WORLD domination is more like it!

Icey
23rd-August-2005, 05:17 PM
But as a full-time consumer, I have to say that on balance I prefer more competitiveness, as this generally leads to better-quality dance nights and venues. I'm a fickle dancer, and I'll flit from franchise to franchise to find a good venue. The only downside is when freestyle nights (Fri / Sat) clash - for example, last week, Cheshunt and Ashtons - and I want to go to both. But I prefer having too many dance venues to having too few.

:yeah:

I consider Chesham to be my 'home' venue but other than that I am not remotely faithful when it comes to venues and/or franchises.

I was asked by someone a while ago why I hadn't gone to a particular freestyle night and they were a little put out by my reply that I had gone elsewhere.

David Bailey
23rd-August-2005, 06:29 PM
Its now being marketed as a mixture of salsa and jive (moved in on the Latin scene there)
Ooh, did someone mention the L-word? :innocent:

{ rant = ON }
Frankly, I think this whole thing "This Modern Jive dance phenomenon is a fusion of Jive and Salsa" is utter and total b******s, and I've said so before. It's just trying to cash in on the "sexiness" or brand-recognition of salsa, instead of developing a proper brand of it's own. And no, I don't mean "Ceroc", I mean "Modern Jive". Grrrr....
{ rant = OFF }


its started teaching ballroom
And, err, stopped. For the moment at least...


UK domination, I think WORLD domination is more like it!
I dunno. Whilst I think there's potential for some growth in the UK with MJ, it's more limited, and probably in less profitable areas - otherwise they'd have been snapped up already. You can't throw a brick in London without hitting a ceroc venue, for example.

There may well be potential for applying the "Ceroc teaching model" to other forms of dance, but I'm not totally convinced you can divorce the model and the dance that easily. I know, for example, that nosequins attendance numbers were dropping; ballroom and latin are hard work, they require discipline and effort, and regular attendance.

Salsa may be a potential future market, but (for example) I can't really imagine a CerocArgentinianTango class...

ducasi
23rd-August-2005, 06:59 PM
{ rant = ON }
Frankly, I think this whole thing "This Modern Jive dance phenomenon is a fusion of Jive and Salsa" is utter and total b******s, and I've said so before. It's just trying to cash in on the "sexiness" or brand-recognition of salsa, instead of developing a proper brand of it's own. And no, I don't mean "Ceroc", I mean "Modern Jive". Grrrr....
{ rant = OFF } Unfortunately to their target market (and I include in that me, 6 months ago (to the day!)), "Salsa" is sexy, whilst "Jive" in my mind conjured up images of the dancing my Dad might have done (he didn't.) (And adding "Modern" doesn't really change anything.)

I don't want to learn to dance like my Dad, and it's only because I saw with my own eyes what this Ceroc stuff was all about that I went along.

I don't really know Salsa to say how much of it is or is not in Ceroc, but in the absence of any other sexy words to use, I think it's not a bad marketing effort.

I don't think you could create a popular brand from "Modern Jive" – has anyone actually tried?

David Bailey
23rd-August-2005, 08:35 PM
Unfortunately to their target market (and I include in that me, 6 months ago (to the day!)), "Salsa" is sexy, whilst "Jive" in my mind conjured up images of the dancing my Dad might have done (he didn't.) (And adding "Modern" doesn't really change anything.)
I won't deny that it's a mountain of work required to develop a proper brand identity. I also won't deny that anything "Latin" by it's nature is always seen in Anglo countries as sexy, and "Modern Jive" won't realistically be able to compete on that front, or that Sex Sells.

But to me, that means you aim to market MJ in other ways that don't involve sex - social interaction, keeping fit, and of course ease of learning.

(Congrats on your 6 month anniversary by the way!)


I don't want to learn to dance like my Dad, and it's only because I saw with my own eyes what this Ceroc stuff was all about that I went along.
I saw my dad dancing partner dance for the first time about 5 years ago at a family wedding - it was a real eye-opener, he was very good. Plus, he was doing double-trouble (!). Don't knock the older generation, chances are they're better at partner dancing than you are...


I don't really know Salsa to say how much of it is or is not in Ceroc, but in the absence of any other sexy words to use, I think it's not a bad marketing effort.
If you're aiming for the easy "sex sells", true. But, to quote Gus "I'm sick and tired of saying 'its a bit like salsa' to explain it to people".

And there are similarities in some salsa / MJ moves, but the timing is totally different, as is the style and of course the music. I'd estimate that WCS / Lindy is closer to MJ than salsa. Oh, but WCS isn't sexy...

ducasi
23rd-August-2005, 11:45 PM
(Congrats on your 6 month anniversary by the way!) Thanks!

... Don't knock the older generation, chances are they're better at partner dancing than you are... Undoubtedly – they've had longer to practice. :na:

If you're aiming for the easy "sex sells", true. But, to quote Gus "I'm sick and tired of saying 'its a bit like salsa' to explain it to people". Well it looks like Ceroc are – witness the sexy "seducer" couple used on so much of their marketing, and the front of their beginners' DVD.

I don't like saying "it's a bit like salsa", especially as I don't know salsa to be able to know the truth of that statement. I just say something like "it's a really fun partner dance, with lots of cool spins and dips and I know you'll just love it!"

But then they say "is it like salsa?" :rolleyes:

Are you then going to get into the complexities of the differences, or are you just going to say "a bit...". :nice:

And there are similarities in some salsa / MJ moves, but the timing is totally different, as is the style and of course the music. I'd estimate that WCS / Lindy is closer to MJ than salsa. Oh, but WCS isn't sexy... Having seen WCS for the first time close up at the weekend, I'm not sure what the fuss is about... :whistle: But then, as you say, it's not sexy, and that's what does it for me... :devil: :wink:

But seriously, yeah, WCS/Lindy, etc. are all closer to MJ than Salsa... Unfortunately, "the number of people who (in some sense) know what "Salsa" is" > "the number of people who know what Ceroc/Leroc/MJ is" > "the number of people who know what WCS/Lindy is." (In my estimation.)

Ceroc and other organisation would be nuts to try to sell their product as a WCS/Lindy derivative. (Though maybe that would work in the US... Hmm...)

Do any dance organisation in your knowledge market their classes based on "social interaction, keeping fit, or ease of learning"? (Which are all valid points.)

Yogi_Bear
23rd-August-2005, 11:55 PM
Having seen WCS for the first time close up at the weekend, I'm not sure what the fuss is about... :whistle: But then, as you say, it's not sexy, and that's what does it for me... :devil: :wink:

I would have to disagree on that, especially after watching Jordan Frisbee and Tatiana Mollman dancing WCS at Southport this year :D :worthy: Seriously sexy....

MartinHarper
24th-August-2005, 12:25 AM
Unfortunately, "the number of people who (in some sense) know what "Salsa" is" > "the number of people who know what Ceroc/Leroc/MJ is" > "the number of people who know what WCS/Lindy is."

True in the UK, Aus, NZ, etc, though I suppose SDF might make that less so. On the other hand, in the US, they are still trying to figure out: What is Ceroc? (http://www.yehoodi.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=73281)

ducasi
24th-August-2005, 12:51 AM
I would have to disagree on that, especially after watching Jordan Frisbee and Tatiana Mollman dancing WCS at Southport this year :D :worthy: Seriously sexy.... Didn't really mean that, I was just playing around with what DJ had said... :flower:

The wee bit I saw didn't look especially sexy, but I'm sure it can be seriously sexy when it wants to be. :wink:

bigdjiver
24th-August-2005, 02:11 AM
... Whilst I think there's potential for some growth in the UK with MJ, it's more limited, and probably in less profitable areas - otherwise they'd have been snapped up already. You can't throw a brick in London without hitting a ceroc venue, for example...It looks like it takes a population of 20,000 ish to support a Ceroc Venue, which would imply that Ceroc could achieve 1,000 class nights a week. There is certainly still work to be done.

Lou
24th-August-2005, 08:02 AM
On the other hand, in the US, they are still trying to figure out: What is Ceroc? (http://www.yehoodi.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=73281)
Well, if we couldn't agree on here, what hope do those poor Lindys have? :whistle:

(interesting link, btw... :clap: )

bigdjiver
24th-August-2005, 08:57 AM
Cadbury is a recognised brand of chocolate. It has distinct favours of chocolate. I am sure that we could come up with a long list of "flavours" of MJ. Latin, swing, rockabilly, retro-pop and chart spring to mind. Ceroc+ballroom has always been a step too far from me, not chocolate in my book.

One of the many factors restricting the growth of MJ that has been occupying my mind is the "strangled" new venue. These tend to be "export" venues. They tend to hover about 35 to 40 mark, and to be making a "loss". The "loss" is on door accounting. What tends to happen is that the members who progress there will seek to expand their experience, and to migrate to venues with a better attendance and better dancers.

I classify an "export" venue as one whose joining members visit other venues more than their "home" (joining) one. These "loss" making venues may actually be making an overall profit for MJ through their recruiting. They may be making a profit for Ceroc. The fact that can be verified is whether they are making a profit for the franchisee , by the use of door statistics from a database.

Ceroc could maximise its assets by collating statistics from franchisees. It can happen that a "strangled" venue is making an overall profit for Ceroc by recruiting members for the franchise next door, or even more remote. I suspect that there are very many members that have had their first experience of MJ at a London venue, intoduced by a work colleague, and gone onto become a regular nearer to where they live. There they would show up as a "new" member. Already having the bug they will distort the retention statistics. They will inflate the number of members that Ceroc has, and deflate the number of visits per member. If Ceroc is to maximise its assets it must be able to know how many members it has, and how well its venues are really performing. I believe that the membership form should collect some information about previous Ceroc Membership, other previous MJ experience, and other previous dance class experience. I would restrict this to 3 tick boxes on joining, and do more in depth surveys later.

Back to the problem of the "strangled" venue. One solution may be for head office to collect the stats, and collect a levy per attendance, and distribute it between franchises. Some money from members recruited in London that dance in the suburbs would be fed back, and vice versa. This will mostly balance out, but it could make the difference between a venue that is making an overall profit for Ceroc closing or not.

Another solution may be for varieties of Ceroc. The established venue could be branded as "plain" Ceroc, and the new one as a "flavour". If the strangled venue is "Latin" then it is more likely that the members that learn there will be Latin fans, and less likely to migrate, and it will also attract more people from the "plain" venue. The result could be more choice and more customers, and faster growth.

El Salsero Gringo
24th-August-2005, 09:00 AM
It looks like it takes a population of 20,000 ish to support a Ceroc Venue, which would imply that Ceroc could achieve 1,000 class nights a week. There is certainly still work to be done.Is this another random Forum statistic, like "80% of forum members don't like dancing with beginners?"

Did you know that 60% of Forum statistics are wrong?

David Bailey
24th-August-2005, 09:12 AM
Well it looks like Ceroc are – witness the sexy "seducer" couple used on so much of their marketing, and the front of their beginners' DVD.
Oh yes, they are indeed - doesn't mean I have to like it though.


I don't like saying "it's a bit like salsa", especially as I don't know salsa to be able to know the truth of that statement. I just say something like "it's a really fun partner dance, with lots of cool spins and dips and I know you'll just love it!"

But then they say "is it like salsa?" :rolleyes:
Exactly - now try and multiply that by 10 years, and you'll get an idea of the frustration levels you can achieve after hearing this ALL THE TIME.

And I'm speaking as a big fan of salsa; I can't imagine how annoying it is to, say, lindy-style MJ-ers...


Ceroc and other organisation would be nuts to try to sell their product as a WCS/Lindy derivative. (Though maybe that would work in the US... Hmm...)
Not my suggestion - I simply want MJ to stand on its own two feet, with a clear brand identity. Salsa dancers and organisers have spent 20 years marketing and pushing the dance, and it's paid off, it would be nice to have this done for MJ.


Do any dance organisation in your knowledge market their classes based on "social interaction, keeping fit, or ease of learning"? (Which are all valid points.)
Yes - Ceroc do!

To be fair to Ceroc (darn, hate having to do that), the full quote from the front page (non-members) is:
"This Modern Jive dance phenomenon is a fusion of Jive and Salsa which is easy to learn, sociable and fun, and can be danced to any music with a regular beat."
I'd be happy if they just removed "is a fusion of Jive and Salsa which" from that quote...

Will
24th-August-2005, 10:25 AM
Salsa may be a potential future market, but (for example) I can't really imagine a CerocArgentinianTango class...
:wink:

Gus
24th-August-2005, 11:18 AM
Salsa may be a potential future market, but (for example) I can't really imagine a CerocArgentinianTango class...Ahhhhh, to echo Darth Will, young one you have much to learn ... the Jango is weak with this one... but he may yet learn .... :rolleyes:

Donna
24th-August-2005, 11:21 AM
{ rant = ON }
Frankly, I think this whole thing "This Modern Jive dance phenomenon is a fusion of Jive and Salsa" is utter and total b******s, and I've said so before. It's just trying to cash in on the "sexiness" or brand-recognition of salsa, instead of developing a proper brand of it's own. And no, I don't mean "Ceroc", I mean "Modern Jive". Grrrr.......{ rant = OFF }




According to Nicki Haslam (founder of Ceroc in Australia) she said Ceroc is a combination of Jive, Latin and Dirty Dancing. :nice: Even now it's still developing and yes, a lot of ballroom stuff is coming into it as well. Give it another 10 years or so...and I think MJ will be hot!!!!

bigdjiver
24th-August-2005, 11:21 AM
Is this another random Forum statistic, like "80% of forum members don't like dancing with beginners?"

Did you know that 60% of Forum statistics are wrong?Bedford's population is 100,000 to 150,000, depending on how big an area you include. It was supporting 4 nights a week. 1 closed because their teachers gave up. Given that the majority probably do not know what Ceroc dancing is, and only a small percentage have actually tried MJ, and a high percentage of those that do try MJ attend a few times, I think that 20,000 is about right for a properly priced and marketed product. I suspect that, in general, the price should be higher, and more effort spent on marketing.
The estimate of a potential of 1000 ceroc nights was based on Ceroc getting 50% of the market, in terms of venues, and of many areas being unsuitable, so 1 venue per 30,000 population being average. I was also assuming that the 50% of venues in independent hands would tend to include more of the smaller, "for love", venues.

In other words, it was a random statistic. (But, hey!. I can get lucky)

TiggsTours
24th-August-2005, 11:51 AM
{ rant = ON }
Frankly, I think this whole thing "This Modern Jive dance phenomenon is a fusion of Jive and Salsa" is utter and total b******s, and I've said so before. It's just trying to cash in on the "sexiness" or brand-recognition of salsa, instead of developing a proper brand of it's own. And no, I don't mean "Ceroc", I mean "Modern Jive". Grrrr....
{ rant = OFF }

Never said I agreed with it, just said they were doing it, that's all. I personally don't think Ceroc is anything like Salsa, I said I don't like alot of latin music at Ceroc venues, that's because if I want to do Salsa, I'll go to a Salsa bar, where the atmosphere is right, and people are doing it right.

I hate Ceroc being marketed as a form of dance, its not. Ceroc is purely a company that teaches Modern Jive, that is why other companies are teaching the same thing, because they're teaching MJ to, its just they are not trying to kid anyone into thinking its exclusive!


I dunno. Whilst I think there's potential for some growth in the UK with MJ, it's more limited, and probably in less profitable areas - otherwise they'd have been snapped up already. You can't throw a brick in London without hitting a ceroc venue, for example. ...

I've been dancing a long time now, and the growth of MJ is phenomenal! Especially in the last 2 years since so many dance programmes have been on the telly, finally making it look cool! That said, I used to live near Brighton, and that's were I started dancing, Ceroc have tried launching down there a number of times, and always failed. I personally think its good for Ceroc to fail occassionally, its a shame there's not more competition up London way!


There may well be potential for applying the "Ceroc teaching model" to other forms of dance, but I'm not totally convinced you can divorce the model and the dance that easily. I know, for example, that nosequins attendance numbers were dropping; ballroom and latin are hard work, they require discipline and effort, and regular attendance. ...

:yeah: I agree completely! I think it works wonderfully for MJ, as its not strictly structured, but where there is more discipline in a dance style, you need more 1-1 focus.


Salsa may be a potential future market, but (for example) I can't really imagine a CerocArgentinianTango class...

No! Leave Salsa as it is! Its doing just fine without Ceroc interfering! I just hope they don't ruin the world of Lindy Hop, which they're already chipping away at!

Gus
24th-August-2005, 11:59 AM
I just hope they don't ruin the world of Lindy Hop, which they're already chipping away at!Urrr.. there is a very strong argument that says Lindy would be dead and buried if its wasnt for Ceroc. Nearly all the Lindy Hoppers I know, including a fair few instructors, came originaly from Ceroc!

TiggsTours
24th-August-2005, 12:05 PM
Urrr.. there is a very strong argument that says Lindy would be dead and buried if its wasnt for Ceroc. Nearly all the Lindy Hoppers I know, including a fair few instructors, came originaly from Ceroc!
Alot did, yes, but not all of them, and certainly not all the amazing international dancers that everyone in this country flocks to see! I don't think I know of ANY Lindy dancers, even the ones that still do Ceroc, let alone just started there, would agree for one second it would be dead and buried, OR that Ceroc should be running it! In the States, Lindy is the dance that everyone does, its huge! Nobody there has even heard of Ceroc!

Donna
24th-August-2005, 12:12 PM
Never said I agreed with it, just said they were doing it, that's all. I personally don't think Ceroc is anything like Salsa, I said I don't like alot of latin music at Ceroc venues, that's because if I want to do Salsa, I'll go to a Salsa bar, where the atmosphere is right, and people are doing it right.

:yeah:



I hate Ceroc being marketed as a form of dance, its not. Ceroc is purely a company that teaches Modern Jive, that is why other companies are teaching the same thing, because they're teaching MJ to, its just they are not trying to kid anyone into thinking its exclusive!.

I agree the teachers are teaching Modern Jive only. Mind you, you'll get a few that may like to add something a bit different to it like a tango move etc but I do believe it's actually the dancers that change it after, not the teacher. You watch competitors and it's all starting to look like latin dancing/ballroom crossed with Jive but they were never really taught that way.

Rhythm King
24th-August-2005, 12:12 PM
Urrr.. there is a very strong argument that says Lindy would be dead and buried if its wasnt for Ceroc. Nearly all the Lindy Hoppers I know, including a fair few instructors, came originaly from Ceroc!
:yeah:

I didn't partner dance before starting with Ceroc. Now I attend classes in a number of different styles, but still go to Ceroc venues and freestyles on a regular basis.

David Bailey
24th-August-2005, 12:19 PM
Ahhhhh, to echo Darth Will, young one you have much to learn ... the Jango is weak with this one... but he may yet learn .... :rolleyes:
:blush:

Gus
24th-August-2005, 12:22 PM
.......OR that Ceroc should be running it! In the States, Lindy is the dance that everyone does, its huge! Nobody there has even heard of Ceroc!Oh, totally agree to that. Really like Lindy Hop ... just can't do it and the music bores me senseless after a while :sick:

Lindy would still exist, especially after the rediscovery of Franky by our Scandenavian cousins, but in the UK it would probably be a LOT smaller without the influx from Ceroc. If I remember right such luminaries of the Lindy world such as the mighty Simon Selmon and James Hamilton started in Ceroc!

Will
24th-August-2005, 12:48 PM
In the States, Lindy is the dance that everyone does, its huge! Nobody there has even heard of Ceroc!
And in the US they all play baseball and Grid Iron whilst football (Soccer) struggles out there, and yet Football is by far the most popular sport world-wide. So I don't think Ceroc needs to worry too about this.

Will
24th-August-2005, 12:51 PM
If I remember right such luminaries of the Lindy world such as the mighty Simon Selmon and James Hamilton started in Ceroc!
All true. Then of course there is Nigel and Nina. And it's also true of Joseph & Trish Sewell I believe...

Not only are all the above superb dancers, they are also fantastic teachers (just like my good mate Gus is!). I wonder why that might be :whistle:

Gus
24th-August-2005, 01:12 PM
Not only are all the above superb dancers, they are also fantastic teachers (just like my good mate Gus is!). I wonder why that might be :whistle:Because we all broke away from the CTA as soon as possible so it didnt corrupt and restrict our natural talent?? :whistle: :wink: :devil: :devil:

ducasi
24th-August-2005, 01:30 PM
Do any dance organisation in your knowledge market their classes based on "social interaction, keeping fit, or ease of learning"? (Which are all valid points.)Yes - Ceroc do!

To be fair to Ceroc (darn, hate having to do that), the full quote from the front page (non-members) is:
"This Modern Jive dance phenomenon is a fusion of Jive and Salsa which is easy to learn, sociable and fun, and can be danced to any music with a regular beat."
I'd be happy if they just removed "is a fusion of Jive and Salsa which" from that quote... Can I revise my question... "Do any dance organisation [...] without trying to sex it up using words like 'Salsa'?" :wink:

Basically the question comes down to "Is there any dance organisation trying to make money that doesn't try to sex up their product in some way?"

Perhaps as Salsa is a Latin thing, we need to find a sexy word that reflects the French roots of MJ. Something with "Va-va-voom!"

("Bobby; what's the French for Salsa?")

Robin
24th-August-2005, 01:43 PM
Because we all broke away from the CTA as soon as possible so it didnt corrupt and restrict our natural talent?? :whistle: :wink: :devil: :devil:

Ermmm ... What about Adam (CerocMetro) then ?

Scot
24th-August-2005, 02:00 PM
Because we all broke away from the CTA as soon as possible so it didnt corrupt and restrict our natural talent?? :whistle: :wink: :devil: :devil:

On the contrary you left too early young Gus you still had much to learn about the ways of ceroc :wink:

Donna
24th-August-2005, 02:36 PM
Perhaps as Salsa is a Latin thing, we need to find a sexy word that reflects the French roots of MJ. Something with "Va-va-voom!"

You've just said it yourself. Think va va voom! suits MJ just fine!!! :clap: :grin:

JoC
24th-August-2005, 02:38 PM
Perhaps as Salsa is a Latin thing, we need to find a sexy word that reflects the French roots of MJ. Something with "Va-va-voom!"I like that.


But, to quote Gus "I'm sick and tired of saying 'its a bit like salsa' to explain it to people". I'm guessing the salsa reference is used when describing ceroc sometimes partly because that's a dance that many people can readily visualise because it's been so popular recently, and they at least get the gist that it's partner dancing involving turns and twisty arm things.

Having said that, I would have thought most people can visualise jive too so I guess for us regular bods when we're describing it to other people we don't have to say it's like salsa, we could say it's like jive, and then resort to 'it's a bit like salsa' if they look blank at the jive bit.

Incidentally the only descriptions I got before I came were, 'it's with a partner' and 'various music', so 'it's a bit like anything' would have been something and might have got me through the doors a little sooner (I'm not sure if that would now be viewed as a good thing mind you...)

TiggsTours
24th-August-2005, 02:40 PM
And in the US they all play baseball and Grid Iron whilst football (Soccer) struggles out there, and yet Football is by far the most popular sport world-wide. So I don't think Ceroc needs to worry too about this.
I never said Ceroc should be worried, I just said that I don't think they should be teaching Lindy, who said anything about them being worried?

TiggsTours
24th-August-2005, 02:41 PM
All true. Then of course there is Nigel and Nina. And it's also true of Joseph & Trish Sewell I believe...

Not only are all the above superb dancers, they are also fantastic teachers (just like my good mate Gus is!). I wonder why that might be :whistle:
Hang on! I know all that, I agreed that lots of Lindy dancers started with Ceroc, but there are also alot of FAB Lindy dancers who did not start with Ceroc! Andy & Rena, Gary & Sarah, Hasa & Marie, Yuval & Nathalie, do I need to go on?

Gus
24th-August-2005, 02:55 PM
Ermmm ... What about Adam (CerocMetro) then ?Doesn't that prove my case? :whistle:

Gus
24th-August-2005, 02:55 PM
On the contrary you left too early young Gus you still had much to learn about the ways of ceroc :wink:What ... there are more than the 476 standard moves? :eek:

Robin
24th-August-2005, 03:08 PM
Doesn't that prove my case? :whistle:

Sorry ? :confused:

Missed something there ... or maybe you know something I don't :wink:

Gus
24th-August-2005, 03:22 PM
Sorry ? :confused:

Missed something there [SNIP]
Only the humour :rolleyes: I WAS JOKING!!!!!!!!

Lou
24th-August-2005, 03:27 PM
Only the humour :rolleyes: I WAS JOKING!!!!!!!!
Gus, dearheart, you're far too deliciously cynical to be a Cerocâ„¢ teacher. :flower: :hug:

Will
24th-August-2005, 03:40 PM
I never said Ceroc should be worried, I just said that I don't think they should be teaching Lindy, who said anything about them being worried?

Agreed, you didn't say anything about them being worried. Disagree that Ceroc shouldn't be involved in teaching Lindy if they want to. How can you say that the organisation that has been the starting point for more dancers, INCLUDING MORE TOP LINDY TEAHCERS than any other shouldn't think about teaching Lindy?


Hang on! I know all that, I agreed that lots of Lindy dancers started with Ceroc, but there are also alot of FAB Lindy dancers who did not start with Ceroc! Andy & Rena, Gary & Sarah, Hasa & Marie, Yuval & Nathalie, do I need to go on?

Yep, especially as only 2 or your 4 named couples learnt in the UK. Furthermore, would the Lindy teachers in the UK who didn't start out at Ceroc all have been able to keep a business going if Ceroc hadn't provided such a huge percentage of their market? I think the answer to these questions all go to back to firming up Gus' point.

Robin
24th-August-2005, 03:43 PM
Only the humour :rolleyes: I WAS JOKING!!!!!!!!

'sfunny though ... coz he had 9 nights and was teaching for years before he was "allowed" to qualify as a Ceroc Teacher!

but those days are gone .... now he could have become an afilliate!

El Salsero Gringo
24th-August-2005, 03:43 PM
Hang on! I know all that, I agreed that lots of Lindy dancers started with Ceroc, but there are also alot of FAB Lindy dancers who did not start with Ceroc! Andy & Rena, Gary & Sarah, Hasa & Marie, Yuval & Nathalie, do I need to go on?Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Andy and Rena did start off with Ceroc. I'm pretty sure I remember Rena telling me how she used to enjoy MJ but then discovered Lindy afterwards.

Donna
24th-August-2005, 03:44 PM
An interesting fact I learnt about a week ago....if you want to learn Lindy Hop now..then you would actually have to quit Ceroc for 6 months until you get the hang of it! :eek:

TiggsTours
24th-August-2005, 03:45 PM
Agreed, you didn't say anything about them being worried. Disagree that Ceroc shouldn't be involved in teaching Lindy if they want to. How can you say that the organisation that has been the starting point for more dancers, INCLUDING MORE TOP LINDY TEAHCERS than any other shouldn't think about teaching Lindy?
Because Ceroc teaches Modern Jive, they should stick to what they're good at, and leave the rest to the experts in their own fields.

What's wrong with a bit of competition? What's wrong with shopping at your local greengrocer, where all the fruit & veg is grown locally, is organic, well priced, and helps to retain the small enterprise, instead of always going to the huge Tesco superstore that could put them out of business?

TiggsTours
24th-August-2005, 03:46 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Andy and Rena did start off with Ceroc. I'm pretty sure I remember Rena telling me how she used to enjoy MJ but then discovered Lindy afterwards.
Ah yes, MJ, but I don't think it was Ceroc.

ducasi
24th-August-2005, 03:46 PM
I like that. Thanks. :nice:

Having said that, I would have thought most people can visualise jive too so I guess for us regular bods when we're describing it to other people we don't have to say it's like salsa, we could say it's like jive, and then resort to 'it's a bit like salsa' if they look blank at the jive bit. Except as I said, "Salsa" is sexy, and "Jive" isn't. Until I saw it, I wasn't in the slightest bit interested in Ceroc. The word "Jive" was a big turn-off for me. :sad:

So, we've got the new marketing line for Ceroc sorted...

"Ceroc: The dance with Va-va-voom!" :waycool:

Just need to get a few cool footballers in the adverts, and the sky's the limit! :wink:

Donna
24th-August-2005, 03:50 PM
[QUOTE=ducasi]Thanks. :nice: Except as I said, "Salsa" is sexy, and "Jive" isn't.

Aaaah but you see, you can make Jive sexy. It is like dirty dancing you know!!! :grin:



Until I saw it, I wasn't in the slightest bit interested in Ceroc. The word "Jive" was a big turn-off for me. :sad:

I think it is for anybody (especially the young un's) because they picture this old fashioned type jive and music but like any form of dance, it always changes as the years go by.

So, we've got the new marketing line for Ceroc sorted...


"Ceroc: The dance with Va-va-voom!" :waycool:

:clap:


Just need to get a few cool footballers in the adverts, and the sky's the limit! :wink:

:rofl: :whistle: wolf whistle!

Will
24th-August-2005, 03:56 PM
Because Ceroc teaches Modern Jive, they should stick to what they're good at, and leave the rest to the experts in their own fields.

What's wrong with a bit of competition? What's wrong with shopping at your local greengrocer, where all the fruit & veg is grown locally, is organic, well priced, and helps to retain the small enterprise, instead of always going to the huge Tesco superstore that could put them out of business?

What indeed is wrong with a bit of competition? I'd like to know, as you seem to be rather frightened of it right now!


Ah yes, MJ, but I don't think it was Ceroc.

I too, thought Rena started out with Ceroc. As for whether she was taught at an official Ceroc class or a 'MJ' class is totally missing the point as well as splitting hairs. All MJ classes have their roots in Ceroc if you go back far enough.... (Just ask Lou :wink: ), so either way, she is yet another example of a Lindy Hopper Teacher in existance because of Ceroc.

Will

TiggsTours
24th-August-2005, 03:58 PM
"Ceroc: The dance with Va-va-voom!" :waycool:

Ceroc isn't a dance! Its a company that teaches dance!

I agree about Jive sounding old fashioned though, even with Modern stuck in front of it, its what made me hesitate about learning it for ages too. I like the "va-va-voom" though!

So, what we need is a new name for a new style of dance, which is what Modern Jive has evolved into really. "Freestyle" is what they called it on Strictly Dance Fever (let's be honest, that's what they were doing) "fusion" is really what it's become, as it has fused together so many styles, but its taken out the structure.

TiggsTours
24th-August-2005, 04:00 PM
What indeed is wrong with a bit of competition? I'd like to know, as you seem to be rather frightened of it right now!
Not frightenend of it at all, you're the one who's saying Ceroc should be able to teach anything, and so in turn put everybody else out of business!

Donna
24th-August-2005, 04:01 PM
So, what we need is a new name for a new style of dance, which is what Modern Jive has evolved into really.

It hasn't really evolved into anything yet really.

TiggsTours
24th-August-2005, 04:23 PM
It hasn't really evolved into anything yet really.
Well, it has evolved, if you ever dance with anyone who does traditional jive you'll soon see its very different to that.

alex
24th-August-2005, 04:33 PM
Hang on! I know all that, I agreed that lots of Lindy dancers started with Ceroc, but there are also alot of FAB Lindy dancers who did not start with Ceroc! Andy & Rena, Gary & Sarah, Hasa & Marie, Yuval & Nathalie, do I need to go on?how many started with lindy? (i know yuval and nathalie started with european rock'n'roll)

alex

Yogi_Bear
24th-August-2005, 04:35 PM
An interesting fact I learnt about a week ago....if you want to learn Lindy Hop now..then you would actually have to quit Ceroc for 6 months until you get the hang of it! :eek:Indeed. I have always been told, and I can see the truth of it, that having practised MJ is a positive handicap when it comes to learning Lindy Hop (and probably others such as West Coast swing), as you will not have developed any footwork discipline, will not understand the structure of swing music, will not understand connection, will tend to always begin dancing in open holds, and so on.... :whistle:

MartinHarper
24th-August-2005, 04:36 PM
she is yet another example of a Lindy Hopper Teacher in existance because of Ceroc.

My first experience of dance was some tacky "disco" organised by a youth clubs. Does that make me an example of a Ceroc dancer in existence because of youth clubs?

I'm all in favour of acknowledging influences, and the UK Lindy scene owes a lot to modern jive, just as MJ owes a lot to French Jive. I feel it should be kept in perspective.

David Bailey
24th-August-2005, 04:58 PM
Blimey, I go away for 5 minutes and miss a punch-up, isn't that always the case...


Perhaps as Salsa is a Latin thing, we need to find a sexy word that reflects the French roots of MJ. Something with "Va-va-voom!"
Now that's a good idea. :clap:

Emphasizing the French roots (real or mythological) might well be a plausible way to go...


So, we've got the new marketing line for Ceroc sorted...

"Ceroc: The dance with Va-va-voom!" :waycool:
Works for me.


Ceroc isn't a dance! Its a company that teaches dance!

Technically, this is true - certainly if you look through ceroc.com, they're fairly careful to say that Ceroc is a dance organisation. I'd also personally agree that Ceroc is a dance organisation teaching a flavour of Modern Jive. However, this is a leetle controversial...


I agree about Jive sounding old fashioned though, even with Modern stuck in front of it, its what made me hesitate about learning it for ages too. I like the "va-va-voom" though!
The MJ name is crap, I agree - personally I think "Le Roc(k)" is better, name-wise. But then we get into a "is LeRoc a dance or an organisation" debates, and I'm still carrying the scars (from Lou's whip) the last time we debated this...


It hasn't really evolved into anything yet really.
I'd disagree - MJ is definitely evolving, as are other popular dances - salsa, for example, is changing all the time. There's no point where we say "OK, it's evolved, stop now". Again, my view is that Ceroc is the dance equivalent of English - different dialects develop in different regions, it changes and absorbs influences from other cultures, and it's rough-and-ready, with few formal rules.

As for whether MJ helps or hinders learning other dance styles, I'd say it's a bit of both. It helps because you're used to partner dancing, to leading and following, to learning how to move yourself to the beat of music and so on. It hinders because each style is different, and most other styles need more hard work, and some bad habits may be more difficult to break.

Lynn
24th-August-2005, 05:03 PM
Well it was Ceroc I had heard of (from English people) and Ceroc that I first saw (Will actually!) and wanted to learn. But I then started salsa and for about 6 months did salsa once a week and MJ once a week - it was just called 'Jive'.

So very few people here have heard of 'Ceroc' - I've had a few salsa dancers on meeting me say 'oh you do jive don't you', so the 'Modern' bit hasn't really established itself here either. Interestingly the Lindy group which has recently started is being called 'Swing' and isn't described as Lindy (though it is when people come along) - probably because most people won't have heard of it.

Then again someone recently dismissed learning WCS because it was 'the same as 6 beat jive only in a different direction' wheras I would see them as two quite different styles.

Terminology and definitions can be funny things. Sometimes I think the easiest thing is to simply show people what you mean.

Will
24th-August-2005, 05:09 PM
Not frightenend of it at all, you're the one who's saying Ceroc should be able to teach anything, and so in turn put everybody else out of business!
:confused: Put everybody else out of business? That's a huge assumption on your part, especially as they haven't done this with ceroc/Modern Jive??? Indeed the truth is quite the opposite, where the competition has been created by Ceroc.

Indeed you're the one wanting to stifle competition, by wanting to keep Ceroc out of the market!

Will

ducasi
24th-August-2005, 05:12 PM
... certainly if you look through ceroc.com, they're fairly careful to say that Ceroc is a dance organisation. I'd also personally agree that Ceroc is a dance organisation teaching a flavour of Modern Jive. However, this is a leetle controversial... Probably only because if they used "Ceroc" to mean the dance then they wouldn't be able to trademark it. :rolleyes:

I'll still call the dance I do Ceroc, as I really don't like the term "Modern Jive".

The MJ name is crap, I agree - personally I think "Le Roc(k)" is better, name-wise. But then we get into a "is LeRoc a dance or an organisation" debates, and I'm still carrying the scars (from Lou's whip) the last time we debated this... To me, "Le Roc(k)" is just as bad as MJ – they're both names made up to go in place of the original name for this dance style, Ceroc. (Though doubtless I'll get shot down in flames for my crass ignorance here. :sad: Again. :tears: )

I'd disagree - MJ is definitely evolving, as are other popular dances - salsa, for example, is changing all the time. There's no point where we say "OK, it's evolved, stop now". Again, my view is that Ceroc is the dance equivalent of English - different dialects develop in different regions, it changes and absorbs influences from other cultures, and it's rough-and-ready, with few formal rules. :yeah:

And all the others are like French and German where they have learned bodies sitting about, deciding what is allowed or not in their language.

TiggsTours
24th-August-2005, 05:14 PM
Interestingly the Lindy group which has recently started is being called 'Swing' and isn't described as Lindy (though it is when people come along) - probably because most people won't have heard of it.
That will be because Lindy Hop is just one of the dances that makes up the Swing dance genre, along with Boogie Woogie, Shag, West Coast Swing, East Coast Swing, Balboa, and a few more.

TiggsTours
24th-August-2005, 05:15 PM
Probably only because if they used "Ceroc" to mean the dance then they wouldn't be able to trademark it. :rolleyes:
I think you'll find its because Modern Jive wasn't invented by Ceroc, its been around alot longer, or else they probably would have trademarked it!

Will
24th-August-2005, 05:17 PM
My first experience of dance was some tacky "disco" organised by a youth clubs. Does that make me an example of a Ceroc dancer in existence because of youth clubs?
If you found a passion for dance through "tacky disco" at you local youth club, which directly caused you to go looking for other dance forms and lead to you finding Ceroc, then absolutely it does.


I'm all in favour of acknowledging influences, and the UK Lindy scene owes a lot to modern jive, just as MJ owes a lot to French Jive. I feel it should be kept in perspective.
Absolutely agree.

Apart from looking at the backgrounds of most of the top Lindy teachers in this country, my perspective comes from dancing ceroc for a long time and then going to Simon Selmans Lindy classes at the 100 Club in Oxford Street and recognising a majority of the faces in there.

Lynn
24th-August-2005, 05:23 PM
That will be because Lindy Hop is just one of the dances that makes up the Swing dance genre, along with Boogie Woogie, Shag, West Coast Swing, East Coast Swing, Balboa, and a few more. I know that. But its exclusively Lindy that is being done. Though I notice they are now mentioning it as Lindy Hop on a website of listings. I don't think that many here would have heard of most of those swing dances.

Will
24th-August-2005, 05:29 PM
I think you'll find its because Modern Jive wasn't invented by Ceroc, its been around alot longer, or else they probably would have trademarked it!
Now I see where you're coming from. A history lesson for you....

Ceroc (also known as C'est le roc) was James Cronin's adaption of French Jive that he started in 1980. However, because it wasn't a registered trademark, it wasn't long before other people copied the dance and teaching style and setup their own Ceroc classes (take Bristol for instance). Then in 1989 Ceroc was made into a copyright by the originator, hence a year later, a man named Robert Austin coined the phrase "Modern Jive" as an adequate description of the dance (a full 10 years after people had first started dancing Ceroc). This soon became an acceptable political alternative as Ceroc was now a copyright. Some people (i.e. Bristol) decided to rename themselves Leroc as there is no copyright on that name.

El Salsero Gringo
24th-August-2005, 06:07 PM
Now I see where you're coming from. A history lesson for you....

Ceroc (also known as C'est le roc) was James Cronin's adaption of French Jive that he started in 1980. However, because it wasn't a registered trademark, it wasn't long before other people copied the dance and teaching style and setup their own Ceroc classes (take Bristol for instance). Then in 1989 Ceroc was made into a copyright by the originator, hence a year later, a man named Robert Austin coined the phrase "Modern Jive" as an adequate description of the dance (a full 10 years after people had first started dancing Ceroc). This soon became an acceptable political alternative as Ceroc was now a copyright. Some people (i.e. Bristol) decided to rename themselves Leroc as there is no copyright on that name.Sorry, Will, but I have to correct some of your (and other's) misconceptions about the purpose and extent of trademarks, and copyright.

COPYRIGHT:

A copyright exists in the fixed expression of an artistic idea.

You can't copyright a dance-form. You can't copyright "Ceroc". You can copyright the teaching script for a ceroc move. You can't copyright a teaching method. You can copyright the textbook in which you describe a teaching method. None of those things would stop someone else setting up a (virtually) indistinguishable dance company, under a different name, teaching effectively the same moves.

TRADEMARKS:

A trademark, to quote from the Patent Office website, is "any sign which can distinguish the goods and services of one trader from those of another."

You don't need to register a trademark to gain legal protection and to be able to prevent others trading under that mark; it does however make enforcement easier if you decide to proceed to court.

"Ceroc" can be protected as a trademark. It can (presumably has) be registered as a trademark, in addition. Words in the English language cannot be registered as a trademark. "Modern Jive" could not be registered as a trademark, nor protected as a trademark whether it were registered or not.



I'm afraid that most of your previous post - interesting as it is as a historical sequence of events - doesn't actually make much sense.

Will
24th-August-2005, 06:20 PM
Apologies to Mr ESG who is quite right. Indeed, please read Trademark, where I've used the word Copyright. Right?

El Salsero Gringo
24th-August-2005, 06:36 PM
Apologies to Mr ESG who is quite right. Indeed, please read Trademark, where I've used the word Copyright. Right?Umm. Sort of. Depends how you read this sentence:
However, because it wasn't a registered trademark, it wasn't long before other people copied the dance and teaching style and setup their own Ceroc classes (take Bristol for instance).Whether it was a registered trademark or not, there's nothing on earth that could stop anyone copying the dance and the teaching style, as long as they put it under a different name.

ducasi
24th-August-2005, 06:50 PM
"Ceroc" can be protected as a trademark. It can (presumably has) be registered as a trademark, in addition. Words in the English language cannot be registered as a trademark. "Modern Jive" could not be registered as a trademark, nor protected as a trademark whether it were registered or not. My understanding is that if "ceroc" became a generic term for a form of dance, in the same way as "salsa" has, then it could no-longer be a trademark. (In the terms you put it, because it has entered the language.)

(Funny it's never stopped Microsoft putting a â„¢ on Windowsâ„¢, but let's not get into that discussion here...)

Anyway, that's why Cerocâ„¢ Enterprises talk about teaching Modern Jive, as they have a trademark to preserve. I don't, and so I'll continue to call it Ceroc. :nice:

El Salsero Gringo
24th-August-2005, 07:06 PM
(Funny it's never stopped Microsoft putting a â„¢ on Windowsâ„¢, but let's not get into that discussion here...)OK, I, checked and I was wrong, it can be English - but it has to be 'distinctive' with respect to the product. So Windows would be distinctive, and not descriptive, with respect to software. I guess. "Modern Jive" I suspect still wouldn't pass muster as a Trademark since it's just description of the dance.

ducasi
24th-August-2005, 07:14 PM
OK, I, checked and I was wrong... Yeah, I should also have noticed the Apple® logo in front of me. ;)

David Bailey
24th-August-2005, 07:53 PM
OK, I, checked and I was wrong,
It takes a big ass to admit it when he's made a mistake. :clap:

frodo
24th-August-2005, 10:29 PM
OK, I, checked and I was wrong, it can be English - but it has to be 'distinctive' with respect to the product. So Windows would be distinctive, and not descriptive, with respect to software. I guess. "Modern Jive" I suspect still wouldn't pass muster as a Trademark since it's just description of the dance.Apple is a good example but Windows is a highly debatable trademark.

In the windowed computer environment it is a pretty descriptive term.

It isn't a forgone conclusion that Microsoft could always defend it as
a trademark if challenged.

ducasi
24th-August-2005, 11:44 PM
Apple is a good example but Windows is a highly debatable trademark.

In the windowed computer environment it is a pretty descriptive term.

It isn't a forgone conclusion that Microsoft could always defend it as
a trademark if challenged.
And this is the discussion I didn't want to get into... :wink:

(I think Microsoft have a bit of a cheek trying to grab descriptive words out of the English language and turn them into their own. But, like I said I didn't want to get into this discussion, so someone tell me to hush up!)

Whitebeard
24th-August-2005, 11:48 PM
..... so someone tell me to hush up!
OK. So, hush up!!, wee laddie.

ducasi
24th-August-2005, 11:53 PM
OK. So, hush up!!, wee laddie.
Oops! Sorry! :blush: (And thanks! :D) I'll be quiet now... :o

bigdjiver
25th-August-2005, 01:20 AM
A bit of history of Leroc & Ceroc (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4630&highlight=ange+lau)

Also - Our local "Leroc" venue ran an afternoon of workshops and an evening dance in conjunction with the local Argentine Tango class. They have also played Lindy & Tango tracks in their freestyle.

Also - I first saw Rena at the '98 Le Jive Championships, deservedly winning the "Dance with a Stranger" with a superb performance.

ducasi
25th-August-2005, 08:19 AM
A bit of history of Leroc & Ceroc (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4630&highlight=ange+lau) Thanks to that link, I found out that LeRoc came before Ceroc, and that the dance wasn't actually invented by James Cronin. (Though he has a lot to do with its development and popularisation.) I don't think I've seen this information anywhere else – at least not explicitly.

There's also a link to this web site (http://www.howtojive.com/). Where, if you dig around a bit, you might find this page (http://www.howtojive.com/whats-in-a-name.htm) which discusses the name of this dance that we do...

I think "insipid" is a good choice of word.

Dreadful Scathe
25th-August-2005, 09:33 AM
anyway back to Microsoft :) they have the power to defend even the silliest thing by throwing money at it. Look at the recent lawsuit against Lindows, the linux operating system designed for ease of use - its a windowing based operating system just like MS Windows, Mac OS's over the years, OS2, Amiga Workbench and the many, many other Operating Systems that decided to use a mouse since Xerox came up with the idea. They sued Lindows because it was clearly trying to sound like the windows name...bah. Lindows is now called Linspire as a result. Windows should not have been a tm in the first place.

On an unrelated note, be careful when you order Iced tea in Egypt - they look confused and then bring you back a Hot Tea with 2 ice cubes in it. That really happened.

Lou
25th-August-2005, 09:35 AM
Where, if you dig around a bit, you might find this page (http://www.howtojive.com/whats-in-a-name.htm) which discusses the name of this dance that we do...
Interesting link. Blimey. Cerocâ„¢'s a trademark and LeRoc's a generic term. Oh my! :eek:

:rofl:

Scot
25th-August-2005, 10:47 AM
anyway back to Microsoft :) they have the power to defend even the silliest thing by throwing money at it. Look at the recent lawsuit against Lindows, the linux operating system designed for ease of use - its a windowing based operating system just like MS Windows, Mac OS's over the years, OS2, Amiga Workbench and the many, many other Operating Systems that decided to use a mouse since Xerox came up with the idea. They sued Lindows because it was clearly trying to sound like the windows name...bah. Lindows is now called Linspire as a result. Windows should not have been a tm in the first place.

On an unrelated note, be careful when you order Iced tea in Egypt - they look confused and then bring you back a Hot Tea with 2 ice cubes in it. That really happened.

Oh forgot these commercial Linux operators are doing it for the good of the computer world they are not interested in taking business from Microsoft the fact that they called it Lindows was just pure coincidence. :what:

And of course if these companies were as successful as Microsoft there is no way they would try to protect their product and their shareholders investment. They would be all for promoting all operating systems equally and so what if they lost a bit a revenue it would after all be in the best intrests of the computer world.

What an ideal world it would be if Linux ruled the desktop. :hug: Not to mention additional employment it would create as we would need double the staff to support it. :yeah:

David Bailey
25th-August-2005, 11:12 AM
Manfully ignoring my inner geek...


Interesting link. Blimey. Cerocâ„¢'s a trademark and LeRoc's a generic term. Oh my! :eek:
No, LeRoc is an organisation - remember? :whistle:

Lou
25th-August-2005, 11:15 AM
Altogether now....

Oh no it isn't!

Gus
25th-August-2005, 11:44 AM
Manfully ignoring my inner geek...


No, LeRoc is an organisation - remember? :whistle:Dave ... NO! LeRoc is the ORIGINAL name for the dance now know as Modern Jive and also Ceroc(tm).

MartinHarper
25th-August-2005, 12:28 PM
How can you say that the organisation that has been the starting point for more dancers, INCLUDING MORE TOP LINDY TEACHERS than any other shouldn't think about teaching Lindy?

They've every right to think about it - it's a free market.
I don't think that the Ceroc teaching method and attitude would work well for teaching Lindy. For that reason, I would avoid going to a Ceroc Lindy class, unless it got glowing reviews from folks I trust. On the other hand, I would happilly go to a Lindy class by an ex-CTA teacher.

The other factor is that, doing both dances, I enjoy the differences in attitude: Ceroc folks tend to take classes less seriously, but take freestyling more seriously. Lindy folks tend to do things the other way round. If Ceroc taught Lindy, that might blur that difference, which would make dancing less varied and so less enjoyable for me.

I don't think there's a serious prospect of Ceroc teaching Lindy, outside of weekenders and fun classes, so I'm not losing any sleep over it...

Will
25th-August-2005, 12:30 PM
Dave ... NO! LeRoc is the ORIGINAL name for the dance now know as Modern Jive and also Ceroc(tm).
No,

Ceroc is the ORIGINAL name for the dance, known as Leroc couple of years afterwards, and Modern Jive about 10 years afterwards.
:cheers:

And to sort out this disagreement between DavidJames and Lou about whether Leroc is a generic term or an organisation.... It is BOTH, in the same way that Ceroc is both a generic term and a Company.

CJ
25th-August-2005, 12:41 PM
Leroc is organised?!?!?!?! :what:

:rofl:

Gus
25th-August-2005, 12:42 PM
Ceroc is the ORIGINAL name for the dance, known as Leroc couple of years afterwards, and Modern Jive about 10 years afterwards.
:cheers:.Oh ... so you were THERE were you numbnutts :rolleyes: ... ask Michele Ange etc. ... in fact ask Roger Chin et al ....

oh by the way ... HAVE YOU LEARNT TO USE AN IRON YET??? :whistle: :whistle:

The Gauntlet is down ..... will our 'Craig David' bearded Ceroc-o-phant dare to pick it up? ...... PASS THE POPCORN!

DavidB
25th-August-2005, 12:52 PM
HAVE YOU LEARNT TO USE AN IRON YETHow can he use one when he hasn't got one.

Anyway on Monday he told me he was going to make Kate do his ironing.

TiggsTours
25th-August-2005, 12:55 PM
No,

Ceroc is the ORIGINAL name for the dance, known as Leroc couple of years afterwards, and Modern Jive about 10 years afterwards.
:cheers:

And to sort out this disagreement between DavidJames and Lou about whether Leroc is a generic term or an organisation.... It is BOTH, in the same way that Ceroc is both a generic term and a Company.
Hmm, do you know what it was called in France 20 odd years ago, before James Cronin "discovered" it, brought it to the UK and called it Ceroc? Surely THAT is the original name!

TiggsTours
25th-August-2005, 12:56 PM
They've every right to think about it - it's a free market.
I don't think that the Ceroc teaching method and attitude would work well for teaching Lindy. For that reason, I would avoid going to a Ceroc Lindy class, unless it got glowing reviews from folks I trust. On the other hand, I would happilly go to a Lindy class by an ex-CTA teacher.

The other factor is that, doing both dances, I enjoy the differences in attitude: Ceroc folks tend to take classes less seriously, but take freestyling more seriously. Lindy folks tend to do things the other way round. If Ceroc taught Lindy, that might blur that difference, which would make dancing less varied and so less enjoyable for me.

I don't think there's a serious prospect of Ceroc teaching Lindy, outside of weekenders and fun classes, so I'm not losing any sleep over it...

:yeah: ....and out of the mouths of babes!

David Franklin
25th-August-2005, 01:12 PM
Anyway on Monday he told me he was going to make Kate do his ironing.And on Tuesday he told me

Ve Dentess says vey can unrire ay zhaw next reek

Will
25th-August-2005, 01:14 PM
Hmm, do you know what it was called in France 20 odd years ago, before James Cronin "discovered" it, brought it to the UK and called it Ceroc? Surely THAT is the original name!
Ok, your missing a key word here, "ADAPTED".

French Jive came about due to the American GI's being stationed in France in WWII. They used to do Jitterbug. What James Cronin did was to ADAPT French Jive (i.e. strip out the footwork essentially - making it easier to learn), and so Ceroc was born.

Having been to France and danced French Jive, I can assure you that Ceroc is different from the Original French Jive.

Hope this helps,

Will

TiggsTours
25th-August-2005, 01:17 PM
Ok, your missing a key word here, "ADAPTED".

French Jive came about due to the American GI's being stationed in France in WWII. They used to do Jitterbug. What James Cronin did was to ADAPT French Jive (i.e. strip out the footwork essentially - making it easier to learn), and so Ceroc was born.

Having been to France and danced French Jive, I can assure you that Ceroc is different from the Original French Jive.

Hope this helps,

Will
Ah, well, in that case, when I started 10 years ago, alot of the moves that are still taught today were taught slightly differently, there were moves taught 10 years ago that are no longer taught, new moves have arisen, moves that were once beginner moves are now intermediate, and the styles of music it is now danced to is vast compared to the styles 10 years ago! It has EVOLVED so much, everyone who has put their mark on the dance has adapted it, so, I guess there's an argument there that, as well as no longer being French Jive, Modern Jive or LeRoc, it is no longer Ceroc either.

Will
25th-August-2005, 01:18 PM
Oh ... so you were THERE were you numbnutts :rolleyes: ... ask Michele Ange etc. ... in fact ask Roger Chin et al ....

oh by the way ... HAVE YOU LEARNT TO USE AN IRON YET??? :whistle: :whistle:
I've already spoken to Roger about this, and he said :

Forget when Michele Ange started Leroc, what I want to know is when someone is going to slap that BITCH Gus up-side the head and stop him wearing mummified trousers and skin-tight tops?

Will
25th-August-2005, 01:31 PM
Ah, well, in that case, when I started 10 years ago, alot of the moves that are still taught today were taught slightly differently, there were moves taught 10 years ago that are no longer taught, new moves have arisen, moves that were once beginner moves are now intermediate, and the styles of music it is now danced to is vast compared to the styles 10 years ago! It has EVOLVED so much, everyone who has put their mark on the dance has adapted it, so, I guess there's an argument there that, as well as no longer being French Jive, Modern Jive or LeRoc, it is no longer Ceroc either.
Well if slight alterations in teaching style over a 10 year period as well as some new moves coming in and others going out of fashion constitute a new dance form, then there are one hec of a lot of dance forms out there that we all mistakenly think is Salsa!

To be clear, Ceroc hasn't got slightly different teaching styles to French Jive, or the odd move different here and there. It is fundamentally different in all its moves as it doesn't have the foot-pattern that French Jive has.

TiggsTours
25th-August-2005, 01:36 PM
Well if slight alterations in teaching style over a 10 year period as well as some new moves coming in and others going out of fashion constitute a new dance form, then there are one hec of a lot of dance forms out there that we all mistakenly think is Salsa!

To be clear, Ceroc hasn't got slightly different teaching styles to French Jive, or the odd move different here and there. It is fundamentally different in all its moves as it doesn't have the foot-pattern that French Jive has.
Ah, that'll be because there are no foot patterns! Does that mean that all dance with no foot patterns is Modern Jive? Disco, that wierd bouncing they do in nightclubs? There's alot more to a dance style than just foot patterns! ALL swing styles have the same basic 6 beat and 8 beat foot pattern, but there is alot more that dictates the actual dance style. I think that "Ceroc" is so different from what it was 10 years ago, it certainly would never have been considered that you could dance it to hip-hop, blues, alot of latin, and other music it is commonly danced to now, then you could only dance it to bouncy bouncy pop, with no breaks. Its just so much better now!

Russell Saxby
25th-August-2005, 01:42 PM
Originally Posted by RogerC
Forget when Michele Ange started Leroc, what I want to know is when someone is going to slap that BITCH Gus up-side the head and stop him wearing mummified trousers and skin-tight tops?


:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Just deciding to rep for that one

Donna
25th-August-2005, 01:49 PM
Ok, your missing a key word here, "ADAPTED".

French Jive came about due to the American GI's being stationed in France in WWII. They used to do Jitterbug. What James Cronin did was to ADAPT French Jive (i.e. strip out the footwork essentially - making it easier to learn), and so Ceroc was born.

Having been to France and danced French Jive, I can assure you that Ceroc is different from the Original French Jive.

Hope this helps,

Will

I have recently seen a video which was produced around the same time Ceroc started out (or just before) and it is so much better to how ceroc looks. Proper Jive is so much stylish and it even has Dave and Lily Barker on there plus Mike Ellard strutting his stuff.....and BOY, he can move!!!!!! :clap:

I think James Cronin made a HUUUGE mistake adapting French Jive to make it easier for people to learn, because now, it's no longer like Jive! I don't know what the hell to make of it. Like Nicky Haslam has described it, it's a combination of Basic Jive, Latin and Dirtly Dancing...and she is right!!!! I think a lot of ballroom is coming into it now as well. Like any other style (salsa etc) Jive should have stayed the way if was in the first place. You hardly see anyone dancing like they did back then NOW do you?? It was so much better. In fact, I'd be interested to find a class where they teach proper Jive as I'd much prefer to dance the REAL thing. Ok, so MJ is a bit of fun but it makes me wonder what will become of it in the next 10 or 20 years??? I dread to think, but it ain't gonna be Jive anymore I can tell you that!

We were busking once in Wrexham and when I was handing leaflets out, this old guy who was once a jiver, was really having a go at me saying 'THAT IS NOT JIVE AT ALL!!!!'

Lynn
25th-August-2005, 02:03 PM
In fact, I'd be interested to find a class where they teach proper Jive as I'd much prefer to dance the REAL thing. So what would be the 'real thing'? Ballroom jive? Rock'n'Roll jive? Jitterbug? East Coast Swing? Lindy Hop.... how far back do you go?

Donna
25th-August-2005, 02:08 PM
So what would be the 'real thing'? Ballroom jive? Rock'n'Roll jive? Jitterbug? East Coast Swing? Lindy Hop.... how far back do you go?

All of em! :clap: I think it's great when you see a couple on the floor who really know how....it clears it!!

My ballroom teacher told me that Jive came from the hussle.

Lou
25th-August-2005, 02:24 PM
And to sort out this disagreement between DavidJames and Lou about whether Leroc is a generic term or an organisation.... It is BOTH, in the same way that Ceroc is both a generic term and a Company.
Oh, Weee-illlll......

I only have one comment on your ridiculous assertion above, and that's...

:na:

Baruch
25th-August-2005, 02:39 PM
And to sort out this disagreement between DavidJames and Lou about whether Leroc is a generic term or an organisation.... It is BOTH, in the same way that Ceroc is both a generic term and a Company.
How can Ceroc be regarded as a generic term if it is a registered trade mark? Also, how can Le Roc be an organisation if it is a generic term? There are organisations within Le Roc, but it isn't an organisation in itself.

I propose a new generic name, which should cover all bases. How about UnFrench Modern UnJive?

Will
25th-August-2005, 02:43 PM
I have recently seen a video which was produced around the same time Ceroc started out (or just before) and it is so much better to how ceroc looks. Proper Jive is so much stylish and it even has Dave and Lily Barker on there plus Mike Ellard strutting his stuff.....and BOY, he can move!!!!!! :clap:
That will be the "How to Jive Video" (which came out in the 80's - after Ceroc was started).


I think James Cronin made a HUUUGE mistake adapting French Jive to make it easier for people to learn, because now, it's no longer like Jive!
I understand what your saying. Indeed, people in other dance forms (ie Ballroom, Lindy Hop) look upon Ceroc as very "mickey mouse", which I guess it is in many ways. But I actually think that is the beauty of it.

In my view it is precisely because James Cronin took the footwork out of French Jive to make it easier that has meant that Ceroc has eclipsed all other dance forms in terms of growth over the last 25 years. Maybe the average Cerocer doesn't look as good as the average Ballroom, Ballet, Tango, (even Lindy - though I don't like it), but it's been a means for many people to get into dance who otherwise wouldn't of. Additionally, those that have started dancing because of Ceroc have gone on to do many other dance forms or Ceroc at a much higher level. :flower:

killingtime
25th-August-2005, 02:43 PM
I think James Cronin made a HUUUGE mistake adapting French Jive to make it easier for people to learn, because now, it's no longer like Jive!

I think it was simplified to be more accessible. Maybe people begin to learn more complex dancing later (I'm certainly happy with just Ceroc at the moment) but they might well have never continued dancing if the learning curve was too high.

A friend of mine who does a bit of Tango mentioned that you might have got walking across the dancefloor in Tango after the first lesson. Had Tango been the first partner dance I tried I might never have stuck at it.

Dance styles do change; some are more dynamic and flexible than others and I think that, in part, is due to whether the people who dance a particular style have a desire to try and mix in other styles as well.

DavidB
25th-August-2005, 02:45 PM
My ballroom teacher told me that Jive came from the hussle.Only if you can time-travel. Ballroom Jive is a standardised and sanitised version of Jitterbug, and can be traced back to just after WW2. Hustle was descended from Salsa in the early '70s, and was done to disco music.

killingtime
25th-August-2005, 02:48 PM
How can Ceroc be regarded as a generic term if it is a registered trade mark? Also, how can Le Roc be an organisation if it is a generic term? There are organisations within Le Roc, but it isn't an organisation in itself.

See Hoover (who lost their ability to apply it as an exclusive trademark due to the fact it became a household name and they tried to assert it in the Dyson case). At the same time I order a "Vodka and Coke" at a bar not a "Vodka and Cola"; sometimes the bar staff do say "Is Pepsi ok?" or some such. Google is now a word (a verb at that) even though it's a company.

Will
25th-August-2005, 02:50 PM
How can Ceroc be regarded as a generic term if it is a registered trade mark?
In the same way that "Hoover" is used as a generic term, despite the fact that it has also been patented by the guy who invented it and another generic term "Vacuum Cleaner" has also developed because of it.


Also, how can Le Roc be an organisation if it is a generic term? There are organisations within Le Roc, but it isn't an organisation in itself.Maybe that's a question for the people at http://www.leroc.org.uk/

Will
25th-August-2005, 02:51 PM
See Hover (who lost their ability to apply it as an exclusive trademark due to the fact it became a household name and they tried to assert it in the Dyson case). At the same time I order a "Vodka and Coke" at a bar not a "Vodka and Cola"; sometimes the bar staff do say "Is Pepsi ok?" or some such. Google is now a word (a verb at that) even though it's a company.
Good Post.

Donna
25th-August-2005, 02:51 PM
Only if you can time-travel. Ballroom Jive is a standardised and sanitised version of Jitterbug, and can be traced back to just after WW2. Hustle was descended from Salsa in the early '70s, and was done to disco music.

You know your stuff don't ya?!! :nice:

David Franklin
25th-August-2005, 02:55 PM
Only if you can time-travel. Ballroom Jive is a standardised and sanitised version of Jitterbug, and can be traced back to just after WW2. Hustle was descended from Salsa in the early '70s, and was done to disco music.But who said we were talking about ballroom jive? You see, if you go back 100 years, there was a dance team who were widely regarded as the best in the world. They were entered in a dance competition, and the betting was heavy. So one of them said, "hey, I've got a great plan for a hustle - let's get a ringer to bet on one of the other teams, and then we'll throw the compeition by dancing like crazy people. I could even pick one of the girls up and throw her over my head!"
"So", asked another, "what will we call this fake dance?"
"Well, it's a phony dance - and jive is a word for phony, so let's call it the jive".
Of course, when they did their new dance, the audience went wild, the judges were overwhelmed, the team were famous (but poorer!) and the rest is history.

But there is no denying that the Jive came out of the Hustle!

It's true, true I tell you... :whistle:

TiggsTours
25th-August-2005, 02:56 PM
I understand what your saying. Indeed, people in other dance forms (ie Ballroom, Lindy Hop) look upon Ceroc as very "mickey mouse", which I guess it is in many ways. But I actually think that is the beauty of it.
Couldn't agree more! In fact that is why, even though I have learnt a number of different styles of dances, "Ceroc" is still my favourite! But I would hate to see the individual beauty of other dance styles taken away, by turning them into a "Ceroc" like version of their original self.


In my view it is precisely because James Cronin took the footwork out of French Jive to make it easier that has meant that Ceroc has eclipsed all other dance forms in terms of growth over the last 25 years. Maybe the average Cerocer doesn't look as good as the average Ballroom, Ballet, Tango, (even Lindy - though I don't like it), but it's been a means for many people to get into dance who otherwise wouldn't of. Additionally, those that have started dancing because of Ceroc have gone on to do many other dance forms or Ceroc at a much higher level. :flower:
Absolutely! I have often said that I think Ceroc is vastly under-rated in the world of dance. I believe it has done more for adult dance in this country over the last however many years than any other style, why? Becuase it is easy to learn, and fun. It gives people who have never danced before the opportunity to master something to a point where they can get up and do it confidently, quickly, in order to keep them coming back. Alot of these people have then chosen to go on and learn the other styles of dance they have heard of, Salsa, Tango, Ballroom, Swing, and I hate the people that then knock where they have come from!

All I have been saying is, not everybody who dances came from Ceroc, and it would be a shame to see it dominate everything else! The reason I wanted to learn more is because I wanted to expand myself into something different, not just go and learn the Ceroc way of doing something else.

Will
25th-August-2005, 02:56 PM
Can I just own up here to those who may have noticed the meteoric rise in my Rep score throughout this thread.

I'd like to be able to say it's because people are appreciating my historical interjections to this debate. However, with 1 exception, it's actually a load of blokes who've been "Repping" me because of DavidB's post saying that I get Kate to do all my ironing!

Donna
25th-August-2005, 02:57 PM
But who said we were talking about ballroom jive? You see, if you go back 100 years, there was a dance team who were widely regarded as the best in the world. They were entered in a dance competition, and the betting was heavy. So one of them said, "hey, I've got a great plan for a hustle - let's get a ringer to bet on one of the other teams, and then we'll throw the compeition by dancing like crazy people. I could even pick one of the girls up and throw her over my head!"
"So", asked another, "what will we call this fake dance?"
"Well, it's a phony dance - and jive is a word for phony, so let's call it the jive".
Of course, when they did their new dance, the audience went wild, the judges were overwhelmed, the team were famous (but poorer!) and the rest is history.

But there is no denying that the Jive came out of the Hustle!

It's true, true I tell you... :whistle:

Thank you Dave!!! :hug:

spindr
25th-August-2005, 03:00 PM
Gosh look a Ceroc/Leroc/HowToJive video timeline :)
http://www.afterfive.co.uk/guide/latest/html/what_is_modern_jive.html#modern_jive_history

SpinDr.

David Bailey
25th-August-2005, 03:14 PM
Dave ... NO! LeRoc is the ORIGINAL name for the dance now know as Modern Jive and also Ceroc(tm).
I just knew someone would fall for that. :whistle:
I'm such a stirrer


We were busking once in Wrexham and when I was handing leaflets out, this old guy who was once a jiver, was really having a go at me saying 'THAT IS NOT JIVE AT ALL!!!!'
Yep, that was almost certainly Gus.

Donna
25th-August-2005, 03:20 PM
Yep, that was almost certainly Gus.

I up Gus, he's calling you an old man here!! :D

Lou
25th-August-2005, 03:23 PM
Maybe that's a question for the people at http://www.leroc.org.uk/
Yes. Let's ask a member of the LeRoc Federation! :clap: Ooooh... I wonder if there's anyone about here? :rolleyes:

Oh yeah - what was the question again?


Gosh look a Ceroc/Leroc/HowToJive video timeline :)
http://www.afterfive.co.uk/guide/latest/html/what_is_modern_jive.html#modern_jive_history
Blimey. What an excellent link. And such a remarkable photo on the page. I understand the photographer is a very talented lady... :whistle: (Although your timeline doesn't cover the stuff posted in the Michael Ange Lau Hall Of Fame Article (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4630&highlight=ange+lau) originally posted by Andy McG, and highlighted by bigdjiver.)

spindr
25th-August-2005, 03:28 PM
Blimey. What an excellent link. And such a remarkable photo on the page.
Well it needed quite a bit of photoshopping :devil:


(Although your timeline doesn't cover the stuff posted in the Michael Ange Lau Hall Of Fame Article (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4630&highlight=ange+lau) originally posted by Andy McG, and highlighted by bigdjiver.)
Always happy to amend items -- but I need a *reliable* reference, rather than just some general discussion page -- e.g. an ISBN, etc.

SpinDr.

Lou
25th-August-2005, 03:35 PM
Always happy to amend items -- but I need a *reliable* reference, rather than just some general discussion page -- e.g. an ISBN, etc.
As Andy posted the scanned pages - I'm sure he'll be able to provide you with the necessary info! :D

David Bailey
25th-August-2005, 03:39 PM
Yes. Let's ask a member of the LeRoc Federation!
Ooooh yes, "Federation" vs. "Organisation", it's all coming back to me now (flashback, flashback, collapse.).

Crawls away and hides...

Lou
25th-August-2005, 03:41 PM
Crawls away and hides... :rofl:

I can see you! :na:

Baruch
25th-August-2005, 05:06 PM
Maybe that's a question for the people at http://www.leroc.org.uk/
The Le Roc Federation? As I understand it, they don't have a monopoly on the name "Le Roc". One does not have to be in the Le Roc Federation in order to teach Le Roc. It's a generic name, whatever its history.

To quote from the Le Roc Federation web site:

Remember, LeRoc is the generic name for this style of modern jive. This means that it is a name that is free to use and is not restricted by a trademark.

Dance clubs are free to use the name LeRoc, but they do not have to be members of the LeRoc French Jive Federation. Clubs which use the name but have not passed the examination of the Federation and the UKA are not linked to through this website.

Gus
25th-August-2005, 05:50 PM
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Just deciding to rep for that oneAgghhhh another Dark Knight of the Evil Empire ... at least Darth Vader had the decency to hide his hideous features behind a mask! PS ... found a comb yet? :whistle:

Russell Saxby
25th-August-2005, 05:56 PM
All of em! :clap: I think it's great when you see a couple on the floor who really know how....it clears it!!

My ballroom teacher told me that Jive came from the hussle.


What and Ceroc done properly cannot clear the floor? :confused:

New Years Eve Party 4 years ago, I won't say I was the youngest there, but not far off it. There was plenty of "old timers" there who were around when "jive" was jive (have we agreed wot we are calling it yet?)

I had stayed away from the dance floor all night, too busy enjoying my beer. My one and only dance was 10 mins from the end - not only did the floor clear, but they formed a circle around us (my then girlfriend and me)... and the song Mambo No5. It was not slowed down, to this day I wonder how I did not fall on my arse, esp. after all that beer. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

I am sure there are many more Cerocers / Modern Jivers out there who can say the same.


I personally think its good for Ceroc to fail occassionally, its a shame there's not more competition up London way!

:angry: If somebody puts the time and effort in then they deserve to succeed. And for someone who is supposed to be an ambassador for Ceroc, you do seem fairly negative about it on this and other posts, but I can be very forgiving - so that open invitation for you to organise a taxi night in Greenwich still stands. :flower:

I always hear griping about how Ceroc is muscling in on the 'little fellow', but there are instances of organisations opening up next to Ceroc venues and using extremely underhand (IMO) methods to gain Ceroc customers. Ceroc franchises just do not bother griping about it on this forum.

Moving on a few other thoughts in no particular order.

Does it really matter what it is called or where it came from??? From a historic / nostalgic angle then fine - but I would be very surprised if any of the 100 dancers at my class this week have any real interest in who invented which move where & first.

In my mind a Ceroc night out is still fundamentally the same. Ok so the beginners class starts off slightly differently, some of the beginners moves have changed, there is now a beginners revision class, moves with a twist of..... may be taught, different teachers - different styles. What is the problem? :D

Uk Domination - If Ceroc franchises want to branch out, then so be it. If it works fantastic. If it doesn't then a lesson learned. If you don't like these new classes then don't go, it is simple enough. Who's to say others will not get enjoyment out of them.

Best I get on and read the other 20plus posts on this thread that I have not loooked at yet.

Russell (a biased Ceroc Franchise Owner)
:flower:

Russell Saxby
25th-August-2005, 06:04 PM
Couldn't agree more! In fact that is why, even though I have learnt a number of different styles of dances, "Ceroc" is still my favourite! But I would hate to see the individual beauty of other dance styles taken away, by turning them into a "Ceroc" like version of their original self.


Absolutely! I have often said that I think Ceroc is vastly under-rated in the world of dance. I believe it has done more for adult dance in this country over the last however many years than any other style, why? Becuase it is easy to learn, and fun. It gives people who have never danced before the opportunity to master something to a point where they can get up and do it confidently, quickly, in order to keep them coming back. Alot of these people have then chosen to go on and learn the other styles of dance they have heard of, Salsa, Tango, Ballroom, Swing, and I hate the people that then knock where they have come from!



so you haven't turned to the dark side after all :flower: :flower:

Lou
25th-August-2005, 07:41 PM
To quote from the Le Roc Federation web site:

Remember, LeRoc is the generic name for this style of modern jive. This means that it is a name that is free to use and is not restricted by a trademark.

Dance clubs are free to use the name LeRoc, but they do not have to be members of the LeRoc French Jive Federation. Clubs which use the name but have not passed the examination of the Federation and the UKA are not linked to through this website.
Really? How interesting. :)

So, would you say it's fair to interpret that as meaning anyone can use the word "LeRoc" because it's a generic term, and not some sort of association? My word! Whatever is the world coming to? :eek:



Lou lobs a scrumpled up piece of paper (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5846) at DavidJames & Will and goes to lie down in a darkened room with her tongue lodged firmly in her cheek.

(Actually, in real life, she wanders off through a thunderstorm, to a local Cerocâ„¢ class - but no one is perfect ;) )

David Bailey
25th-August-2005, 07:41 PM
And for someone who is supposed to be an ambassador for Ceroc, you do seem fairly negative about it on this and other posts, but I can be very forgiving - so that open invitation for you to organise a taxi night in Greenwich still stands. :flower:
Well, if that doesn't tempt her, what on earth could?

Seriously, why shouldn't she express her opinions in a semi-anonymous fashion, in her free time? Some of her posts are pro-Ceroc, some are anti. Like most of us. As long as she's not badmouthing Ceroc on duty, surely she has the right to self-expression? Unless she disagrees with me, naturally.


Does it really matter what it is called or where it came from???
Yes. Names matter - and the whole discussion we're having reflects the problem there is with the whole naming of the dance wot we do. The lack of a generic and easily-recognisable name means that it's difficult to promote it in new areas - the discussion on the US swing forum was both enlightening and depressing - and to describe it even in existing areas.

In my opinion, spreading and developing Our Dance is hampered without a proper descriptive and recognisable name. So yes, it matters what it's called.

But I don't believe it matters where it came from - for example, look at salsa. To quote the ever-amusing www.and123.co.uk, "There are 151 different, conflicting and indisputable histories of salsa. They are all true."

David Bailey
25th-August-2005, 07:47 PM
Lou lobs a scrumpled up piece of paper (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5846) at DavidJames & Will and goes to lie down in a darkened room with her tongue lodged firmly in her cheek.
David picks up scrumpled up paper, notices it's the first line of the front page of leroc.org.uk, thinks "Hmmm... wonder what it says", then reads:

The LeRoc French Jive Federation is an or*ani*ati*n of teachers of this ever popular modern jive dance.

(for some reason, someone's tried to scrub out one of the words :eek: )

Hmmm... thinks David, I wonder why anyone could possibly imagine that a federation would be an organisation...

Lynn
25th-August-2005, 08:46 PM
You see, if you go back 100 years, there was a dance team who were widely regarded as the best in the world. They were entered in a dance competition, and the betting was heavy. So one of them said, "hey, I've got a great plan for a hustle - let's get a ringer to bet on one of the other teams, and then we'll throw the compeition by dancing like crazy people. I could even pick one of the girls up and throw her over my head!"
"So", asked another, "what will we call this fake dance?"
"Well, it's a phony dance - and jive is a word for phony, so let's call it the jive".
Of course, when they did their new dance, the audience went wild, the judges were overwhelmed, the team were famous (but poorer!) and the rest is history.

But there is no denying that the Jive came out of the Hustle!

It's true, true I tell you... :whistle: :rofl: :rofl:

Lynn
25th-August-2005, 08:53 PM
Maybe the average Cerocer doesn't look as good as the average Ballroom, Ballet, Tango, (even Lindy - though I don't like it), but it's been a means for many people to get into dance who otherwise wouldn't of. Additionally, those that have started dancing because of Ceroc have gone on to do many other dance forms or Ceroc at a much higher level. :flower: I think there is a key point here - average Ceroc (or MJ, avoiding the terminology debate) may not look as good as some other dance styles - but it very possibly feels better. Because the average dancer, who goes dancing one or two evenings a week, isn't having to think as much about footwork, the dance experience is more enjoyable. This is especially true I would say in the first 6 months of dancing.

Lynn
25th-August-2005, 08:55 PM
Ballroom Jive is a standardised and sanitised version of Jitterbug, and can be traced back to just after WW2. Hustle was descended from Salsa in the early '70s, and was done to disco music. That's what I thought too. And AFAIK East Coast was a simplified form of Lindy (sometimes even advertised and taught as Lindy)?

David Bailey
25th-August-2005, 10:05 PM
That's what I thought too. And AFAIK East Coast was a simplified form of Lindy (sometimes even advertised and taught as Lindy)?
I never knew hustle was derived from salsa... So, if hustle was a form of dnacing-to-regular-pop-music but with salsa moves, does that make Latin Jive a modern version of hustle?

bigdjiver
26th-August-2005, 12:41 AM
FWIW "Jitter" was a slang term for Whisky, and the name "Jitterbug" goes back to the 20's.

http://www.heptune.com/jitterbu.html

http://www.bobethomas.com/history/history_lindy.htm

Baruch
26th-August-2005, 03:05 AM
The LeRoc French Jive Federation is an or*ani*ati*n of teachers of this ever popular modern jive dance.
Hmmm... thinks David, I wonder why anyone could possibly imagine that a federation would be an organisation...
The whole point is that while of course the Le Roc Federation is, as you keep saying, an organisation, Le Roc itself is not.

I'm a member of the National Union of Teachers. That's an organisation. However, there are also plenty of teachers that don't belong to the NUT. It's the same sort of thing.

David Bailey
26th-August-2005, 08:41 AM
The whole point is that while of course the Le Roc Federation is, as you keep saying, an organisation, Le Roc itself is not.

I'm a member of the National Union of Teachers. That's an organisation. However, there are also plenty of teachers that don't belong to the NUT. It's the same sort of thing.
Ahh... amazingly, that makes sense. Thanks, I know have knowledge, I shall attempt to use it wisely, for the betterment of humanity or something.

But I think this clarifies the massive branding confusion about the whole What's The Dance Called area, for every variation and name...

Lou
26th-August-2005, 08:49 AM
Ahh... amazingly, that makes sense. Thanks, I know have knowledge, I shall attempt to use it wisely, for the betterment of humanity or something.

:worthy: Baruch is my god! :worthy:

(Baruch - make sure you introduce yourself to me at Justine's tonight. I owe you at least a drink! :clap: )

David Bailey
26th-August-2005, 09:04 AM
:worthy: Baruch is my god! :worthy:
Well, if you'd explained it like that months ago... :rolleyes:

Lou
26th-August-2005, 09:14 AM
Well, if you'd explained it like that months ago... :rolleyes: :rofl: I did. Lounge Lizard did. Bigdjiver did. We tried, but failed. :tears:

Which is why I declare today to be National Baruch Day - in order to commemorate this truly historic event! :clap:
Anyone for Margaritas? :cheers:

clevedonboy
26th-August-2005, 09:23 AM
Anyone for Margaritas? :cheers:

OK - I'll see you in the bar tonight, but do you think that they know how to make them at the Hanham Community Centre?

David Bailey
26th-August-2005, 09:30 AM
:rofl: I did. Lounge Lizard did. Bigdjiver did. We tried, but failed. :tears:
Obviously not well enough.

Oh, and don't think I haven't noticed your copy-cat sig, young man...

Lou
26th-August-2005, 09:36 AM
Oh, and don't think I haven't noticed your copy-cat sig, young man...
Consider it homage, dearheart! After all, we're now in agreement. :hug:

(Andrew - better phone them now to order in the Tequila! :whistle: )

Swinging bee
26th-August-2005, 09:36 AM
Absolutely! I have often said that I think Ceroc is vastly under-rated in the world of dance. I believe it has done more for adult dance in this country over the last however many years than any other style, why? Becuase it is easy to learn, and fun. It gives people who have never danced before the opportunity to master something to a point where they can get up and do it confidently, quickly, in order to keep them coming back. Alot of these people have then chosen to go on and learn the other styles of dance they have heard of, Salsa, Tango, Ballroom, Swing, and I hate the people that then knock where they have come from!


Re the above...Does anyone have figures for the numbers of people MJing and for the traditional forms of dance, ie ballroom ( on a weekly basis). Would be an interesting comparison, just to see where we all lie in the big sceme of things

David Bailey
26th-August-2005, 09:39 AM
Re the above...Does anyone have figures for the numbers of people MJing and for the traditional forms of dance, ie ballroom ( on a weekly basis). Would be an interesting comparison, just to see where we all lie in the big sceme of things
Dunno about ballroom, but Ceroc is apparently 40K regular dancers / week...

Donna
26th-August-2005, 11:07 AM
[QUOTE=Russell Saxby]What and Ceroc done properly cannot clear the floor? :confused:

It certainly does in a night club or a party (Been there, done it, it worked!!! :wink: ) It wouldn't in at a huge dance event. You put proper Jivers on the floor and because it's more detailed/technical therefore looks better, that is what will really impress people....so that would stand a better chance of clearing the floor than a very basic form of dance.

Lynn
26th-August-2005, 11:09 AM
I never knew hustle was derived from salsa... So, if hustle was a form of dnacing-to-regular-pop-music but with salsa moves, does that make Latin Jive a modern version of hustle?I didn't know the salsa connection but I knew that hustle was after jive.

TiggsTours
26th-August-2005, 11:15 AM
[QUOTE]

It certainly does in a night club or a party (Been there, done it, it worked!!! :wink: ) It wouldn't in at a huge dance event. You put proper Jivers on the floor and because it's more detailed/technical therefore looks better, that is what will really impress people....so that would stand a better chance of clearing the floor than a very basic form of dance.
I've know really good Ceroc dancers to clear the floor in a salsa bar actually, and then get really good salsa dancers asking them what they were doing because it looked great! The lack of structure in Ceroc means its far more open to personal interpretation, so can look fantastic!

Donna
26th-August-2005, 11:21 AM
[QUOTE=Donna]
I've know really good Ceroc dancers to clear the floor in a salsa bar actually, and then get really good salsa dancers asking them what they were doing because it looked great! The lack of structure in Ceroc means its far more open to personal interpretation, so can look fantastic!

Yes of course a different form of dance would look good to anybody if they're not familiar with it. But if they were to try it, give it some time, and like everybody else, they start changing it. So salsa dancers might feel the need to make a more detailed by throwing in some salsa moves for e.g. There is a lot of Latin creeping into Ceroc now...even ballroom. You watch a lot of the competitors dance compared to those who just stick to basic ceroc and you will see a HUUUUUGE difference.

TiggsTours
26th-August-2005, 11:26 AM
[QUOTE=TiggsTours]

Yes of course a different form of dance would look good to anybody if they're not familiar with it. But if they were to try it, give it some time, and like everybody else, they start changing it. So salsa dancers might feel the need to make a more detailed by throwing in some salsa moves for e.g. There is a lot of Latin creeping into Ceroc now...even ballroom. You watch a lot of the competitors dance compared to those who just stick to basic ceroc and you will see a HUUUUUGE difference.
That's what I think is the best thing about Ceroc, its the fact you can put so much more into it. I personally put alot of swing into it, but I wouldn't say I'm doing swing, as that's not what my partner is leading.

Donna
26th-August-2005, 11:40 AM
[QUOTE=Donna]
That's what I think is the best thing about Ceroc, its the fact you can put so much more into it. I personally put alot of swing into it, but I wouldn't say I'm doing swing, as that's not what my partner is leading.

This is where ballroom lessons really help, so that when you learn the timing of loads of different types of music, you can throw all that into you're ceroc...so then you and your partner can both be dancing at the same thing.

And you're right...that is the best thing about ceroc...is there is so much space you can fill in with other styles!! :nice:

Lynn
26th-August-2005, 12:12 PM
[QUOTE=TiggsTours]And you're right...that is the best thing about ceroc...is there is so much space you can fill in with other styles!! :nice: :yeah: And the fact that you get to the musical interpretation stage a lot earlier in your learning curve than in other more structured dances. The range of music that you can MJ too is the best thing about it for me.

Donna
26th-August-2005, 12:24 PM
[QUOTE=Donna] :yeah: And the fact that you get to the musical interpretation stage a lot earlier in your learning curve than in other more structured dances. The range of music that you can MJ too is the best thing about it for me.

:yeah: EXACTEMENT!!!!!

Baruch
26th-August-2005, 03:12 PM
[QUOTE=Lou(Baruch - make sure you introduce yourself to me at Justine's tonight. I owe you at least a drink! :clap: )[/QUOTE]
If I don't recognise you (very likely as I've only seen one photo of you on here), look out for couple no. 116, Barry & Samantha Taylor. That's us :nice:

Lou
26th-August-2005, 05:02 PM
If I don't recognise you (very likely as I've only seen one photo of you on here), look out for couple no. 116, Barry & Samantha Taylor. That's us :nice:
I will do - or ask Justine & she'll point me out to you. :) See ya later!

bigdjiver
31st-October-2005, 03:14 PM
One of the questions I have been asking myself is "What is the potential for MJ in the UK?". It appears to require the summing of a vast amount of local knowledge on the numbers of potential dancers in each area. It has occurred to me that that knowledge exiasts in bricks and mortar. Generations past built dance halls to accomodate the perceived local demand.
I therefore postulate BigD's law: "Everywhere there is a dancefloor which will accomodate 150 MJ'ers, has a bar, and adequate parking facilities, should be capable of hosting two MJ nights a week."
Comments and counter examples welcome.

Gus
26th-April-2006, 01:20 PM
I think it would be great for everyone if the UK map was painted orange, as it many cases it would be the only way that some people would get access to Modern Jive. Independents are great, but typically only open classes where there is already a successful Ceroc class, and perceive a market for their own variation. Very few have the vision, training or funds to develop new areas.Came across this thread by accident ... and read Franck's post with interest. Given recent events I'm not sure if this statement is as true as it might once have been. It would appear that in Scotland Franck's proposition still holds sway, but looking round the N West, its been independant operators, e.g. Barnside Jive, have openned up in virgin areas. In fact, there are now cases of Ceroc openning up in areas with established independant clubs.

I think the problem is simple. Do you spend all the time, effort and resources developing a new area ... or just go in head to head with en existing operator and muscle them out of the market?

Baruch
26th-April-2006, 06:16 PM
In fact, there are now cases of Ceroc openning up in areas with established independant clubs.
Just like in Cardiff. There were two established Le Roc classes, but Ceroc came in and opened up on the same night as one of the Le Roc clubs (the one I go to, in fact).

Gus
27th-April-2006, 10:20 AM
Just like in Cardiff. There were two established Le Roc classes, but Ceroc came in and opened up on the same night as one of the Le Roc clubs (the one I go to, in fact).
And what has been the impact of the existing clubs? Have they changed their approach? Sometimes it can benefit the local clubs as Ceroc do tend to do very good launch programmes and can bring in new dancers.

I'm really inetrested to see what happens where Ceroc have 'invaded' two other areas.

Shrewsbury The existing operator is a small independant. Average teaching standard and question mark over the music (well that was the situation 12 months ago). If Ceroc come in with a good DJ and a reasonable CTA instructor I think the existing operator could well struggle to compete and could get wiped out.

Leeds In a interesting move, Ceroc are going head to head in a Blitz owned area, openning a club up only a few miles from one of the the Blitz clubs that has been there since Noah was a cadet. The Leeds club has, over the last 6 months, improved its music. Not sure about the instructor level ... but Helen Zambas is one of the Leeds area instructors and Ceroc will have to bring in a pretty good instructor to be able to compete with her. The possible key is that the Blitz clubs have an older age range ... defintiely in the over 45 age range. Ceroc could make a living by targetting the younger market and then everyone could win.:clap:

May the battles commence!

Yogi_Bear
27th-April-2006, 03:56 PM
I may be out of date on this one, but last time I was searching the internet for MJ opportunities in Liverpool I drew a blank. Why should this be? Is there a city of comparable size in the UK with no MJ outlets?

Also - it would also be interesting to compare cases where an independent set up in competition with an established Ceroc presence, and where it happened the other way round.

I may have to monitor the situation in Nottingham, where there are several newish operators in addition to well established Ceroc.

Gus
27th-April-2006, 04:12 PM
I may be out of date on this one, but last time I was searching the internet for MJ opportunities in Liverpool I drew a blank. Why should this be? Is there a city of comparable size in the UK with no MJ outlets?.The current franchisee of Blitz Chester originaly srated a club in Liverppol. Started well but then fizzled out. No idea why ... he's an excellent Manager. Manchester is still an odd case. There are no clubs in Greater Manchester itself (Ceroc 'Manchester' is MILES away ... in the small suburb of Hyde).


Also - it would also be interesting to compare cases where an independent set up in competition with an established Ceroc presence, and where it happened the other way round.

I may have to monitor the situation in Nottingham, where there are several newish operators in addition to well established Ceroc.
Must admit that I know of more situations where this has been the case rather than Ceroc 'invading'. Newcastle has seen a major invasion of 'me-too' clubs. I'm really surprised at the Notts situation. Phil Roberts is a very savvy franchisee and I'm surpirsed that any of the independants are still in business (though I don't know what numbers they get). One operator has even set-up at the same venue as Ceroc, the MGC! That I don't understand ... thats a serious breach of ettiquette :mad:

Baruch
27th-April-2006, 11:01 PM
And what has been the impact of the existing clubs? Have they changed their approach? Sometimes it can benefit the local clubs as Ceroc do tend to do very good launch programmes and can bring in new dancers.
Too early to tell yet, I think.

It's been discussed here (http://http://www.leroc-in-bristol.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=776.0).

Yogi_Bear
28th-April-2006, 08:22 AM
.............I'm really surprised at the Notts situation. Phil Roberts is a very savvy franchisee and I'm surpirsed that any of the independants are still in business (though I don't know what numbers they get). One operator has even set-up at the same venue as Ceroc, the MGC! That I don't understand ... thats a serious breach of ettiquette :mad:

Incidentally I did visit the outfit running classes at Nottingham MGC one Thursday a few weeks ago. Only ten there for the intermediate class in a huge but uninspiring venue.....and only £3 to get in.

I then visited Ceroc Nott'm WB briefly afterwards, where Marc and Rachel had filled in as guest teachers....many more customers (50ish?) and quite a buzz. I hav previously gathered that Ceroc MGC on Mondays is much busier than Ceroc WB

No contest.

There is also competition from another operator on Tuesdays and Sundays, plus Saturday events, and Lindy Hop...and no doubt others. Still to try try these out.

Dreadful Scathe
12th-September-2006, 12:51 PM
How can Ceroc be regarded as a generic term if it is a registered trade mark?


Just thought I'd bring up this point again as its very topical. If Ceroc IS a generic term i.e. if people use 'cerocing' or 'ceroc' when they are referring to the dance and not the organisation; then there is no reason why someone could not market their own dance night as a "Ceroc Night" as the word is now in common use as a label for modern jive. A good example of this in other areas, is "Walkman" as, although it is a Sony trademark, a judge ruled that it had become a generic term for a personal stereo and that other companies were not breaking the law by using it in their own products. see here for story (http://www.iprights.com/publications/articles/article.asp?articleID=172) and general info on the subject.


once a mark has in fact become the name of the product it cannot any longer function as a trade mark and is no longer capable of protection

Its also demonstrated by the latest actions of Google, who are trying their best to make sure the word Google doesnt become generic for searching. Why? If it was generic, other search engines could use it, confusing the market.

As far as Ceroc is concerned, there is probably enough evidence* out there that it IS a generic term so could be used by anyone wanting to start a MJ
night. (colours and branding and so on are a seperate issue altogether)

* Emma Petite saying on TV that the dance was "Ceroc" is one example (even if she did intend to qualify that)

Easter Bunny
12th-September-2006, 01:47 PM
ODA Mode On
The end of the 'independents' is now in sight. I predict that this time next year there will only be a small enclave of LeRocers hanging out round Bristol, still insisting on stepping back on the left foot.


:really: ooh er........ is that what we all do then ? Don't forget the 'bobbers' (dancers who feel they have to bob up and down as they dance).
Bemused Bristol dancer.:wink:

If Ceroc domination makes for a consistently good standard of dancers across the country, lead on..........

MartinHarper
12th-September-2006, 02:12 PM
If Ceroc domination makes for a consistently good standard of dancers across the country, lead on..........

Does it though? I'd say the contrary: a good standard of dancing is more often achieved by taking lessons in a variety of differing MJ styles, and preferably some non-MJ styles too.

Patrick
12th-September-2006, 02:21 PM
:really: ooh er........ is that what we all do then ? Don't forget the 'bobbers' (dancers who feel they have to bob up and down as they dance).
Bemused Bristol dancer.:wink:

If Ceroc domination makes for a consistently good standard of dancers across the country, lead on..........

No time to catch up with whole thread, but have danced loads of the Ceroc and Leroc venues in the SW in the last year. Have to travel at least 20 miles from Wells so might as well travel 30 or 40 and have a choice of about 20 places!

I am grateful to Ceroc for actually getting me to dance at all, which the Leroc venues failed to do. (Beginners classes too hard IMHO, couldn't cope with feet and hands together!) However, I got a lot of bad and sloppy habits from Ceroc classes, which Leroc is helping to iron out. I love the precision and passion of the Leroc teachers I have experienced. I always try to stand right at the front and watch them like a hawk. A lot of Ceroc teachers seem to tell you to do one thing, and actually do something completely different themselves...

An analogy with the IT world, I see Ceroc akin to Microsoft with all that entails, and Leroc akin to Apple. Except in this case Leroc is actually cheaper... Vive le difference I say. I really hope Ceroc doesn't squeeze out the independents, I like the choice.

Patrick :cheers:

El Salsero Gringo
12th-September-2006, 06:36 PM
As far as Ceroc is concerned, there is probably enough evidence* out there that it IS a generic term so could be used by anyone wanting to start a MJ
night. (colours and branding and so on are a seperate issue altogether)

* Emma Petite saying on TV that the dance was "Ceroc" is one example (even if she did intend to qualify that)I couldn't disagree more. Ceroc takes stringent steps to protect its trademark, and that counts for a great deal in any 'genericisation' decision.

I didn't see Emma on TV, but if she was referring to dancing Ceroc then that's no more a problem than, for instance, someone from Google referring to using the Google search engine as "Googling": a fully correct usage of the registered trade name.

(If you don't believe me, try opening your own "Ceroc" class and see what happens!)

MartinHarper
12th-September-2006, 10:28 PM
Ceroc takes stringent steps to protect its trademark, and that counts for a great deal in any 'genericisation' decision.

Not really. I've talked on this forum about "dancing Ceroc", without proving that the dance I have been performing is the official Ceroc(tm) dance, as taught by licensed Ceroc franchisees. In comparable cases where companies have taken stringent steps to protect a trademark, that would result in a cease-and-desist letter.


(If you don't believe me, try opening your own "Ceroc" class and see what happens!)

What normally happens in such cases is that the group with the most money wins. If I opened an unfranchised Ceroc venue, I would be crushed. If Richard Branson opened an unfranchised Ceroc venue and called it "Virgin Ceroc", he'd get away with it.
(I'm not a lawyer, this is not legal advice)

El Salsero Gringo
12th-September-2006, 10:38 PM
Not really. I've talked on this forum about "dancing Ceroc", without proving that the dance I have been performing is the official Ceroc(tm) dance, as taught by licensed Ceroc franchisees.Well there you go - you've just corrected things by acknowledging the trademark. So no need for letters!

Yogi_Bear
12th-September-2006, 10:47 PM
Someone mentioned to me tonight that some years ago our local Ceroc franchisee would, at Ceroc evenings, approach people seen to be dancing anything other than 'Ceroc' and ask them to desist. This may or not be an urban myth.

Certainly the culture,as I recall, was very much along the lines that no other dance exists beyond the confines of the Ceroc world. I'm not knocking it - it was Ceroc that got me into partner dancing in the first place. But people have been banned from Ceroc venues for holding dance events that might be seen to be clashing or competing with Ceroc. Though things have moved on somewhat since......

bigdjiver
12th-September-2006, 10:52 PM
Well there you go - you've just corrected things by acknowledging the trademark. So no need for letters!but, worryingly, they have not been able to contact the hitman ...

Lynn
12th-September-2006, 10:57 PM
Someone mentioned to me tonight that some years ago our local Ceroc franchisee would, at Ceroc evenings, approach people seen to be dancing anything other than 'Ceroc' and ask them to desist. This may or not be an urban myth.

Certainly the culture,as I recall, was very much along the lines that no other dance exists beyond the confines of the Ceroc world. That wouldn't be the case now - eg there were non-Ceroc dances taught at Storm.

I'm sure its an urban myth though - surely it would only give a very negative impression of Ceroc to actually insist people only danced Ceroc at a Ceroc night? And with the amount of material that Ceroc has borrowed from other dance styles, also rather hypocritical.

Yogi_Bear
12th-September-2006, 11:30 PM
That wouldn't be the case now - eg there were non-Ceroc dances taught at Storm.

I'm sure its an urban myth though - surely it would only give a very negative impression of Ceroc to actually insist people only danced Ceroc at a Ceroc night? And with the amount of material that Ceroc has borrowed from other dance styles, also rather hypocritical.

Well actually Lynn I can quite believe it was true.....!:what:

El Salsero Gringo
12th-September-2006, 11:49 PM
Well actually Lynn I can quite believe it was true.....!:what:Please remember that Ceroc venues are run by variety of people who react in different ways and have different policies. Ceroc London, however, has run ballroom classes taught by a professional ballroom couple (Strictly No Sequins) and went to lengths to provide ballroom practice sessions before freestyles. So I think you can take it that there is no such attitude in this area at least.

Gadget
13th-September-2006, 12:10 AM
And Ceroc Scotland has had teachers from various different styles teaching under the "Ceroc" banner; I have seen no evidence of the attitude up here either.

MartinHarper
13th-September-2006, 09:23 AM
I think you can take it that there is no such attitude in this area at least.


Ceroc Scotland has had teachers from various different styles teaching under the "Ceroc" banner.

Yogi was talking about a historical attitude: what used to be the case "some years ago", rather than what is currently the case.

Dreadful Scathe
13th-September-2006, 10:02 AM
I'm sure its an urban myth though - surely it would only give a very negative impression of Ceroc to actually insist people only danced Ceroc at a Ceroc night?

Well there are certainly reports of Ceroc franchises forcing out competitors by opening competing nights. Plenty stories the other way round too - of non-Ceroc venues going so far as to ban the use of the word "Ceroc" :)


I couldn't disagree more. Ceroc takes stringent steps to protect its trademark, and that counts for a great deal in any 'genericisation' decision.

I beg to differ* its common enough that people DO often use it in a generic way without comeback from Ceroc. I often here and read - "are you going cerocing".** I also recently had a conversation with a woman at a BoogieNights event who said she had "seen this sort of dancing before". "Jive" I said..."No,No thats not it. Ceroc". So as far as I can see "Ceroc" is as generic as "Salsa" and its no surprise - whens the last time it was referred to as anything other than Ceroc at a Ceroc event? :)



I didn't see Emma on TV, but if she was referring to dancing Ceroc then that's no more a problem than, for instance, someone from Google referring to using the Google search engine as "Googling": a fully correct usage of the registered trade name.

No it isnt. If you search google for "googling" the 2nd result is for Wordspy. Google HAVE sent a cease and desist letter to Paul McFedries, creator of Word Spy because of his innapropriate use of the trademark. I think in Emmas case she was asked what the dance style was - she said "Ceroc".


* love that term, it always sounds really condescending ;)
** a search on google for "cerocing" produces 813 results - did ANY of these people get "cease and desist" letters ?

Lou
13th-September-2006, 10:09 AM
Plenty stories the other way round too - of non-Ceroc venues going so far as to ban the use of the word "Ceroc" :)

Who's that, then? Cite! Cite! :D

Dreadful Scathe
13th-September-2006, 11:10 AM
Who's that, then? Cite! Cite! :D
i said "stories" so i didnt have to - but i have the names , witnesses, and corroborating accounts ;)

Lou
13th-September-2006, 12:41 PM
i said "stories" so i didnt have to - but i have the names , witnesses, and corroborating accounts ;)

Hearsay, m'lord!! I demand the honourable Smurf's comments be stricken from the record.

Honestly! Anyone would think this forum runs on gossip & rumour! :rolleyes:

killingtime
21st-September-2006, 01:28 PM
Please remember that Ceroc venues are run by variety of people who react in different ways and have different policies.

True, some might worry that people doing WCS, for example, at a Ceroc venue might be advertising WCS. Though I doubt MJ is really accused of dance snobbery I expect if I went to a tango freestyle and started doing MJ then I expect my refusal rate would go through the roof and, I expect, the venue manager might well mention if I'm not there to tango then I'm probably better somewhere else.

David Bailey
21st-September-2006, 01:56 PM
True, some might worry that people doing WCS, for example, at a Ceroc venue might be advertising WCS. Though I doubt MJ is really accused of dance snobbery I expect if I went to a tango freestyle and started doing MJ then I expect my refusal rate would go through the roof and, I expect, the venue manager might well mention if I'm not there to tango then I'm probably better somewhere else.
Fair enough.

But if the DJ puts on a cha-cha track, or a nu-tango track, at an MJ venue, it's not unreasonable to dance to the music, is it?

Ceroc (well, the bits of Ceroc I know) has got a bit of a schizophrenic attitude towards other dance forms.


Yes, they did Strictly No Sequins, but notice how it stopped over a year ago and it seems unlikely to return.
Yes, Amir teaches for Ceroc - but I don't think his classes are called Jango, they're "Ceroc with a tango twist" or summat.
Yes, I teach salsa in a ceroc venue - but it's called a "Ceroc Latin" class.


In my view, Ceroc's missing a trick by not exporting some of the excellent methodologies, business practices and standardisations to other dance forms. Salsa's been crying out for standard teaching forever, and I don't think Tango's much better.

A decent drive towards actually teaching these forms would IMO go a long way towards retaining more advanced dancers. Ceroc doesn't have to be just about Modern Jive.

Dreadful Scathe
21st-September-2006, 03:17 PM
But if the DJ puts on a cha-cha track, or a nu-tango track, at an MJ venue, it's not unreasonable to dance to the music, is it?

huh, theres plenty instances of people not dancing to the music at any jive venue :) get enough of them jealous of the fact that you ARE and it becomes unreasonable behaviour on your part ;)

ducasi
21st-September-2006, 03:50 PM
Yes, Amir teaches for Ceroc - but I don't think his classes are called Jango, they're "Ceroc with a tango twist" or summat.
They are when he teaches for Ceroc Scotland... :)


Please remember that Ceroc venues are run by variety of people who react in different ways and have different policies. :yeah:

David Bailey
21st-September-2006, 04:11 PM
They are when he teaches for Ceroc Scotland... :)
Which is why I cunningly put the "the bits of Ceroc I know" caveat in. Cunning, that's me.

ducasi
21st-September-2006, 09:55 PM
Which is why I cunningly put the "the bits of Ceroc I know" caveat in. Cunning, that's me.
Well the bits of ****** I know are cuddly. Maybe I should just assume the rest are... :nice:

killingtime
25th-September-2006, 06:23 PM
Well the bits of ****** I know are cuddly. Maybe I should just assume the rest are... :nice:

The bits of what?

Ah Bunnies!

ducasi
25th-September-2006, 07:01 PM
The bits of what?

Ah Bunnies!
Nope, not bunnies. I couldn't possible say who/what I was referring to due to advertising restrictions. :what:

Dreadful Scathe
26th-September-2006, 09:25 AM
Nope, not bunnies. I couldn't possible say who/what I was referring to due to advertising restrictions. :what:
Hmm is it Lindsay Brown ? Dance Demon ? Tiggerbabe.... er.. dunno

JamesGeary
29th-September-2006, 01:13 PM
I was chatting with someone I had just met, and me told me he did LeRoc at Waterloo. I didn't know there was anyone but Ceroc doing straight modern jive in London anymore.

El Salsero Gringo
29th-September-2006, 04:04 PM
I was chatting with someone I had just met, and me told me he did LeRoc at Waterloo. I didn't know there was anyone but Ceroc doing straight modern jive in London anymore.If it's the same class that Minnie and I have been to at Waterloo, it's not Modern Jive - it's French Rock and Roll taught by a French guy (name escapes me) - very fast, with triple steps. And quite simple moves, because of the speed.

Gus
1st-November-2006, 03:41 PM
Had a conversation with a marketing friend. Described the market dynamics, explained (and demonstrated) how easy the dnace was to pick up and descibed the social scene is. She was puzzled. She'd seen all the dance programs on the TV and was very aware as to how dance is now in the public conciousness as never before .... BUT she' never heard of MJ. Furthermore, she was curious as to how MJ hadn't really taken off and become a major attraction.

Thinking about it, WHY ISN'T MJ THE NEXT BIG THING?? There are some very able business people now involved, Ceroc(HQ) deffo has critical mass to make things happen, there are some great ambassadors .... so what is stopping MJ becoming a real force to be reckoned with?

Yogi_Bear
1st-November-2006, 03:45 PM
Had a conversation with a marketing friend. Described the market dynamics, explained (and demonstrated) how easy the dnace was to pick up and descibed the social scene is. She was puzzled. She'd seen all the dance programs on the TV and was very aware as to how dance is now in the public conciousness as never before .... BUT she' never heard of MJ. Furthermore, she was curious as to how MJ hadn't really taken off and become a major attraction.

Thinking about it, WHY ISN'T MJ THE NEXT BIG THING?? There are some very able business people now involved, Ceroc(HQ) deffo has critical mass to make things happen, there are some great ambassadors .... so what is stopping MJ becoming a real force to be reckoned with?

It's primarily a social dance, with no footwork, taking steps from a variety of established dance styles, it's danced for fun, it hasn't a long history, it doesn't spring from a unique cultural background, it isn't really cool or cutting edge.......

Gus
1st-November-2006, 04:05 PM
It's primarily a social dance, with no footwork, taking steps from a variety of established dance styles, it's danced for fun, it hasn't a long history, it doesn't spring from a unique cultural background, it isn't really cool or cutting edge.......For the main age groups isn't that exactly the attraction. Take your real target group, 35 - 60 ... something that is easily accessible, allows them to dance without looking an afflicted baboon, relatively cheap, able to meet hordes of the opposite sex in a safe environment .... At present there are (for the sake of argument) 10,000 MJers .. out of a target market of about 30 million ... not exactly a high degree of market penetration :sick:

Yogi_Bear
1st-November-2006, 04:12 PM
For the main age groups isn't that exactly the attraction. Take your real target group, 35 - 60 ... something that is easily accessible, allows them to dance without looking an afflicted baboon, relatively cheap, able to meet hordes of the opposite sex in a safe environment .... At present there are (for the sake of argument) 10,000 MJers .. out of a target market of about 30 million ... not exactly a high degree of market penetration :sick:
I wouldn't disagree with that. But how do the numbers compare with other popular dances? Are they higher or lower? What proportion of the core target groups is likely ever to be attracted? Why does MJ never get a look in on BBC1......? Does it have no appeal, or doesn't it get enough pubilicity? It's virtually unknown outside this country - does that have a bearing on it...?

TheTramp
1st-November-2006, 04:30 PM
It's virtually unknown outside this country

Unless you're in Australia or New Zealand.... I gather that there's one or two people who do it over there....

bigdjiver
1st-November-2006, 04:35 PM
Had a conversation with a marketing friend. Described the market dynamics, explained (and demonstrated) how easy the dnace was to pick up and descibed the social scene is. She was puzzled. She'd seen all the dance programs on the TV and was very aware as to how dance is now in the public conciousness as never before .... BUT she' never heard of MJ. Furthermore, she was curious as to how MJ hadn't really taken off and become a major attraction.

Thinking about it, WHY ISN'T MJ THE NEXT BIG THING?? There are some very able business people now involved, Ceroc(HQ) deffo has critical mass to make things happen, there are some great ambassadors .... so what is stopping MJ becoming a real force to be reckoned with?I would really love to chat to your marketing friend. It might be that HQ are smart businessmen who are trying to achieve controlled growth. It might be that they have a blind spot. It is my theory that any reasonably priced venue that could support a MJ night should be supporting an MJ night. I am trying to plough through the statistics to see how the potential of MJ could be realised and develop a marketing strategy based on accurate information.

Yogi_Bear
1st-November-2006, 04:37 PM
Unless you're in Australia or New Zealand.... I gather that there's one or two people who do it over there....

Yes, that's true, but they are a long way away...:whistle:

TheTramp
1st-November-2006, 04:38 PM
Yes, that's true, but they are a long way away...:whistle:

Ah. That's it then. I'd noticed that it was a bloody long flight, and was wondering why! :rolleyes:

David Bailey
1st-November-2006, 04:38 PM
I wouldn't disagree with that. But how do the numbers compare with other popular dances? Are they higher or lower?
No-one knows (or at least no-one on this forum) because no-one knows how many people do other dances - in fact, we don't know how many people do MJ either, but the rough estimate of 100,000 "regular" (once or more per month) MJ-ers sounds about right.

There's some discussion of numbers on the "How many dancers in the UK (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6625)" thread.


What proportion of the core target groups is likely ever to be attracted?
I dunno - that's what these so-called marketing professionals should tell us. But they never do.


Why does MJ never get a look in on BBC1......?
Ah - I know this. It's because MJ is predominantly "Ceroc", which is a commercial company, so would be considered advertising. Or so I've heard.

Gus
1st-November-2006, 04:56 PM
I would really love to chat to your marketing friend.Don't think it would make much difference. People who have already tried (and sometimes failed) in developing an MJ presence have been MBAs, PR consultants, experienced entrepeneurs etc etc. There is somwthing about MJ that seems to defy the text books :sick: It would appear that there is no ready solution. The only people I've regularly seen being financially succesful are those who have been able to pull on the existing pool of MJ dancers and offer them something extra.

bigdjiver
2nd-November-2006, 12:12 AM
... The only people I've regularly seen being financially succesful are those who have been able to pull on the existing pool of MJ dancers and offer them something extra.We have four MJ organisation close to me, and they all seem to be succesful with drawing in their own customer base.


... There is somwthing about MJ that seems to defy the text books :sick: It would appear that there is no ready solution.

For me the three main MJ discoveries were:
1) MJ is fun and is good for people.
2) MJ has a different business model from any I had encountered.
3) MJ can be an artform.

My interest in the business model is long-standing.

My theory is that getting someone into an MJ venue is based on the Marketing and the sales pitch.

1) Marketing Dance - been done for us, hugely successfully.
2) Marketing MJ - almost nil.
3) Marketing MJ organisations - limited, but getting better.

When the sales pitch hits the customer it usually has very little support from the Marketing. If you look through the Road to Ceroc and I'm new threads there are many stories on the lines of "my friends told me , but I never went along, but then ..." The reaction we should be looking for is "I'd heard that it was good ..."
A large proportion of people were inducted by friends. The situation where 100 new members will introduce more than 100 friends is achievable, and if /when it is reached growth will be exponential.There is a huge interest in dance. Marketing MJ should be easy. The missing link is an MJ federation.

Few organisers would believe in such an organisation, which is why one does not exist. My plan was for such a federation to offer cheap, or even free, venue management software as a lure to get organisations to sign up. Using common software would increase the market value of organisations because there would be no retraining involved in that when purchasing such an organisation. The other benefits of an MJ federation are already in the forum archives. My "never-got-off-the-ground" master plan was for Ceroc to covertly finance and give impetus to such a federation. What is good for MJ is good for Ceroc.

The T.V. channels are more likely to work with an organisation that represents the industry, and far more of the public would know what Modern Jive was.

Gus
2nd-November-2006, 12:23 AM
The T.V. channels are more likely to work with an organisation that represents the industry, and far more of the public would know what Modern Jive was.I think that many people regards Ceroc(tm) as the Industry. How many other organisations employ profesional marketing and PR people and have a comprehensive business strategy?

Baruch
2nd-November-2006, 09:28 AM
My "never-got-off-the-ground" master plan was for Ceroc to covertly finance and give impetus to such a federation. What is good for MJ is good for Ceroc.
Undoubtedly, but while Ceroc are more interested in putting the competition out of business than working cooperatively there's very little chance of anything like this ever happening.

The nearest body currently in existence is the LeRoc French Jive Federation (http://www.leroc.org.uk/). I can't see Ceroc working with them, can you?

El Salsero Gringo
2nd-November-2006, 09:33 AM
Furthermore, she was curious as to how MJ hadn't really taken off and become a major attraction.
Don't think it would make much difference. People who have already tried (and sometimes failed) in developing an MJ presence have been MBAs, PR consultants, experienced entrepeneurs etc etc.Probably because like lots of other people in this thread they have forgotten a most important fact: that 99.99% of people don't want to be taught to dance: not by you, not by me, not by Mike Ellard, not Anton Du Beke, Uncle Tom Cobbleigh or anyone at all.

That's such a difficult thing to grasp I shall say it again:

99.99% of people don't want to be taught to dance.

Anyone who thinks otherwise and is then tempted to ask questions that begin "why is {insert organisation} so unsuccessful at converting 60 million Britons into fans of {insert organisation}" is living in cloud cuckoo land.

Gus
2nd-November-2006, 10:16 AM
Undoubtedly, but while Ceroc are more interested in putting the competition out of business than working cooperatively there's very little chance of anything like this ever happening.I don't know that that is still the case. It USED to be, no doubt about that, but rather than opertaing on the 'Microsoft' model Ceroc seems to be adopting more of the 'Tesco' model, i.e. lets gain critical mass, dominate the market simply by being everywhere and providing a product that customers will want.

I guess there will always be examples of an an established club putting on 'promotions' to strangle a new club at birth (I've been on the receiving end of them myself), but its not just Ceroc that have pulled that one. I know the situation in South Wales / Bristol may be different, but in the East Mids a range of independants seem to be operating reasonably succesfully ... and some of them are competing against Phil Roberts who is a Franchisee legend.

Gus
2nd-November-2006, 10:20 AM
Probably because like lots of other people in this thread they have forgotten a most important fact: that 99.99% of people don't want to be taught to dance: not by you, not by me, not by Mike Ellard, not Anton Du Beke, Uncle Tom Cobbleigh or anyone at all.

That's such a difficult thing to grasp I shall say it again:

99.99% of people don't want to be taught to dance.Why do you assume all these experienced promoters don't 'know' certain key facts and you automatically know THE TRUTH?

Anyway, I thought the Ceroc mantra was about 'entertainment', not about 'dance lessons'. As a L-plate instructor I thought you would know this .... aren't they still teaching Instructors to be more like 'cheerleaders" and entertain the class ....

BTW would love to see your empirical evidence for the 99.99%. :rolleyes:

David Bailey
2nd-November-2006, 10:26 AM
Probably because like lots of other people in this thread they have forgotten a most important fact: that 99.99% of people don't want to be taught to dance: not by you, not by me, not by Mike Ellard, not Anton Du Beke, Uncle Tom Cobbleigh or anyone at all.
Yeah, but that's not saying much - 99.99% of people don't want to be taught anything. A lot of marketing is about persuading people to do stuff they don't initially want to do.

To gain a reasonable idea of the potential size of the partner dance market, you'd have to research figures from 50 years ago, when (I assume) partner dancing was at its height of popularity, dance halls everywhere etc.

That'd give you a "potential market size" figure - for the sake of argument, let's assume that's about 1 million. I very much doubt there are 1 million regular partner dancers in the UK. So there's room for expansion.

Obviously, these are made-up figures, I'm just illustrating a process.

El Salsero Gringo
2nd-November-2006, 10:26 AM
Why do you assume all these experienced promoters don't 'know' certain key facts and you automatically know THE TRUTH?Because of stupid comments like this: "Furthermore, she was curious as to how MJ hadn't really taken off and become a major attraction."
Yeah, but that's not much of an argument - 99.99% of people don't want to be taught anything. A lot of marketing is about persuading people to do stuff they don't initially want to do.I agree. But before you can work out how to persuade people you need to realise that most people aren't ever persuadable, and those that are - actually need persuading. Sitting round being surprised that they aren't running into your arms is probably a good start.
That'd give you a "potential market size" figure - for the sake of argument, let's assume that's about 1 million. I very much doubt there are 1 million regular partner dancers in the UK. So there's room for expansion.That'd give you a "potential market size" figure - for the sake of argument, let's assume that's about 1 million. I very much doubt there are 1 million regular partner dancers in the UK. So there's room for expansion.Naturally I think there is a lot of room for expansion. But it isn't done by simply dangling the idea of "dance lessons" in front of people and waiting for them to come running to give you their money.

David Franklin
2nd-November-2006, 10:51 AM
Probably because like lots of other people in this thread they have forgotten a most important fact: that 99.99% of people don't want to be taught to dance: not by you, not by me, not by Mike Ellard, not Anton Du Beke, Uncle Tom Cobbleigh or anyone at all. I'm sorry to join the cuckoo fraternity, but I'm sure that figure isn't correct. Pretty much every time I've danced MJ at an social event with a decent number of people (wedding, office party, etc.) at least one person has actively gone up to me (or Bryony) and expressed an interest in learning. I grant you it's usually a fairly idle query that isn't likely to translate into going to classes, but it's still fairly strong evidence against your 'fact'.

El Salsero Gringo
2nd-November-2006, 11:02 AM
I'm sorry to join the cuckoo fraternity, but I'm sure that figure isn't correct. Pretty much every time I've danced MJ at an social event with a decent number of people (wedding, office party, etc.) at least one person has actively gone up to me (or Bryony) and expressed an interest in learning. I grant you it's usually a fairly idle query that isn't likely to translate into going to classes, but it's still fairly strong evidence against your 'fact'.(Some of us were never in doubt as to which fraternity you belong to...)

It's an illustrative figure, not the result of weeks of field surveying. As you point out, expressing an interest in something is not the same as actually wanting to attend a class; attending a class is not the same as returning a second time; and returning a second time is *still* not the same as attending for six months (say) and learning some rudimentary dance skills.

Unlike you, I have the benefit of both ends of the connection: I have danced, promoted, busked etc etc at a variety of locations around the venue I currently teach at. I have visibility of every single person who expresses an opinion to me that they'd like to try dance, gets given a leaflet, personal directions to their nearest venue and so on. I also know *exactly* how many of them actually turn up (even once) to their nearest Ceroc class, and I know *exactly* how many are still attending six months later. I can also tell you further that Ceroc retention figures are vastly higher than Salsa, Ballroom and other forms of dance.

To (mis)quote whoever it was: the best way not to learn to dance is not to want to. So rather than judge what people want by what they say, I'll judge what people want by what they actually get off their arses and do (and similarly, what they're prepared to pay for.)

That's why I can say, with confidence (and allowing a little artistic licence to make a memorable figure) that 99.99% of people dont want to learn to dance.

Gus
2nd-November-2006, 11:04 AM
Because of stupid comments like this: "Furthermore, she was curious as to how MJ hadn't really taken off and become a major attraction.""No stupid question .. only stupid answers". I'm sorry if I'm being more stupid than usual (in your eyes at least) but I didn't think many mortals would claim they have all the answers and understand exactly what it will take for a major step up in MJ interest ... or are you saying its simply not achievable?

El Salsero Gringo
2nd-November-2006, 11:09 AM
"No stupid question .. only stupid answers". I'm sorry if I'm being more stupid than usual (in your eyes at least) but I didn't think many mortals would claim they have all the answers and understand exactly what it will take for a major step up in MJ interest ... or are you saying its simply not achievable?A great deal of extremely hard work, by a lot of people. I'm sorry to say it (not just to you, Gus) but there are no secret answers lying in the Ceroc database, in the stars, in the back of a management expert's brain or anywhere else.

By the way - I was wrong: 99.99% is clearly incorrect since the remaining 0.01% of the population is only 6,000 people. But even if the figure is 99.9% or 99%, I wish people would stop talking in astonished voices that it must be terribly easy (especially now there's some dance on TV) to get 60 million people all down to their local hall/club/venue to dance, and assuming vast incompetence on the part of others because it hasn't happened yet.

Jhutch
2nd-November-2006, 11:11 AM
That's why I can say, with confidence (and allowing a little artistic licence to make a memorable figure) that 99.99% of people dont want to learn to dance.

that leaves 0.01% of the population who do, which out of a population of 60,000,000 means 6,000 people want to learn to dance. (Point taken about artistic licence though:wink: - i know what you mean)

EDIT: See post above(:D)

David Bailey
2nd-November-2006, 11:13 AM
That's why I can say, with confidence (and allowing a little artistic licence to make a memorable figure) that 99.99% of people dont want to learn to dance.
OK, if we're going to argue about figures, I'd put it at around 96 - 98%, not 99.99%.

I think you could definitely make a case to say that there are at least 250K regular partner dancers in the UK at the moment.

And I think you could make a case to say that there were at least 1 million regular partner dancers in the UK 50-odd years ago.

So in theory, you could get 1 million people doing MJ regularly - if you ignored the salsa, ballrooom, etc.

But, it could still be be that "99.99% of people dont want to learn to dance Ceroc when approached by a madman dancing in the street" :whistle:


I wish people would stop talking in astonished voices that it must be terribly easy (especially now there's some dance on TV) to get 60 million people all down to their local hall/club/venue to dance, and assuming vast incompetence on the part of others because it hasn't happened yet.
Actually, I do agree with this - it's the classic "There's a lot of money to be made in XYZ, you know" comment made by an outsider who thinks it's easy to make a killing in a particular field. It annoys me too.

El Salsero Gringo
2nd-November-2006, 11:16 AM
And I think you could make a case to say that there were at least 1 million regular partner dancers in the UK 50-odd years ago.

So in theory, you could get 1 million people doing MJ regularly - if you ignored the salsa, ballrooom, etc.I don't think that what was going on 50 years ago is the least bit relevant. Unless you want to try to unwind all the other social changes that have happened: marriage rates, divorce rates, the way people meet partners, people's leisure patterns, work patterns, and so on. A nonsense obviously.
But, it could still be be that "99.99% of people dont want to learn to dance Ceroc when approached by a madman dancing in the street" :whistle:Right - that's the last time you come busking then.

David Franklin
2nd-November-2006, 11:23 AM
It's an illustrative figure, not the result of weeks of field surveying. As you point out, expressing an interest in something is not the same as actually wanting to attend a class; attending a class is not the same as returning a second time; and returning a second time is *still* not the same as attending for six months (say) and learning some rudimentary dance skills.Ah, but who said anything about "attending a class"? To say "99.99% of people don't want to learn to dance" is not the same as "99.99% of people don't want to put in the time and effort required to learn to dance".

This isn't merely being picky with words. The people "who don't want to learn to dance, even if it was easy, painless and took no time" are clearly a lost cause - there's nothing we can do for them. The people who don't want to put in time and effort may be persuadable. If you say 99.99% of people fall into the first category, you're putting a very hard limit on what expansion is possible - a limit that I would say is unjustified.

As for artistic license, I'm worried you've been associating with Barry too much. 99.99% is 1 in 10000; if you just look at the attendance figures for weekenders you get a higher proportion of the eligible population than that. It would help to know what figure you think is actually correct (even if roughly).

David Bailey
2nd-November-2006, 11:26 AM
I don't think that what was going on 50 years ago is the least bit relevant. Unless you want to try to unwind all the other social changes that have happened: marriage rates, divorce rates, the way people meet partners, people's leisure patterns, work patterns, and so on. A nonsense obviously.
If you extend that argument, you're saying that we can learn nothing from history?

I'm not saying that it's an exact guide - just that it's an indication of how successful a partner dance scene can become. People do want to dance, lots of them - look at the nightclub scene.

How many people want to put effort into learning to dance? Good question - but if you consider the recent past as a first approximation of a guide ("the past is another country" effectively), it gives some indication.

Partner dancing was almost non-existent 25 years ago - say 50,000 in total (0.01%). There are (say) 250K partner dancers now (0.05%). I don't think it's unreasonable to assume there's a lot more potential out there. People still want to get close to people of the opposite (mainly) sex, after all... :innocent:

El Salsero Gringo
2nd-November-2006, 11:33 AM
Ah, but who said anything about "attending a class"? To say "99.99% of people don't want to learn to dance" is not the same as "99.99% of people don't want to put in the time and effort required to learn to dance".

This isn't merely being picky with words.I think it is being picky, to some extent. Although you have the right to ask me what exactly I have in mind when I say "don't want to learn to dance": what I mean is, and I think in the context of this thread it's a roughly appropriate meaning: "People who aren't ever going to be prepared to - or able to - adjust their lives sufficiently to attend a weekly dance class on average at least one a month for a year."
As for artistic license, I'm worried you've been associating with Barry too much. 99.99% is 1 in 10000; if you just look at the attendance figures for weekenders you get a higher proportion of the eligible population than that. It would help to know what figure you think is actually correct (even if roughly).I don't really know what kind of exact figure is correct; I know that it's a small minority of the population though, and unless there are great social upheavals, it's always going to be a small minority. I guess it might be feasible (from a social point of view, not a business one) to double the number of partner-dancers in the uk within a period of 10-20 years.

bigdjiver
2nd-November-2006, 01:45 PM
Probably because like lots of other people in this thread they have forgotten a most important fact: that 99.99% of people don't want to be taught to dance: not by you, not by me, not by Mike Ellard, not Anton Du Beke, Uncle Tom Cobbleigh or anyone at all.

That's such a difficult thing to grasp I shall say it again:

99.99% of people don't want to be taught to dance.

Anyone who thinks otherwise and is then tempted to ask questions that begin "why is {insert organisation} so unsuccessful at converting 60 million Britons into fans of {insert organisation}" is living in cloud cuckoo land.
St. Neots is the largest town in Cambridgeshire. Its location on the main rail route from London to Edinburgh has led to rapid residential growth and it now has a population of over 27,000. 2 MJ nights a week


SANDY Bedfordshire is a market town situated 9 miles east of Bedford and 22 miles west of Cambridge some ... POPULATION Just over 9,000." 1 weekly venue


Bedford Borough pop ~148000 3 nights per week

bigdjiver
2nd-November-2006, 01:53 PM
.. I can also tell you further that Ceroc retention figures are vastly higher than Salsa, Ballroom and other forms of dance...1) Those stats show indisputedly what an amazing product MJ is.
2) Those stats show what a marketing disaster MJ is.

El Salsero Gringo
2nd-November-2006, 01:58 PM
1) Those stats show indisputedly what an amazing product MJ is.
2) Those stats show what a marketing disaster MJ is.I'm so bored with this side-line carping. Go out there and do it better, then.

El Salsero Gringo
2nd-November-2006, 02:00 PM
2 MJ nights a week

1 weekly venue

3 nights per weekSo about 1%, then. A lot less in cities, I expect, since there's a lot more competition for people's leisure activities.

Tessalicious
2nd-November-2006, 02:10 PM
99.99% is 1 in 10000; [pendant mode]I thought you were a mathematician! 99.99% is 9999 in 10000. [/pendant mode]

bigdjiver
2nd-November-2006, 02:11 PM
So about 1%, then. A lot less in cities, I expect, since there's a lot more competition for people's leisure activities.Try to accept that statistics are not one of your strengths.


"I live just across the road. I never knew it was here."

El Salsero Gringo
2nd-November-2006, 02:12 PM
Try to accept that statistics are not one of your strengths.You've certainly yet to convince me that marketing is one of yours.

TheTramp
2nd-November-2006, 02:17 PM
[pendant mode]I thought you were a mathematician! 99.99% is 9999 in 10000. [/pendant mode]

Good point!

Question though. Is a pendant the female equivalent of a pedant. Possibly with more jewellery?? :whistle:

David Franklin
2nd-November-2006, 02:18 PM
[pendant mode]I thought you were a mathematician! 99.99% is 9999 in 10000. [/pendant mode]Any mathematician would understand the implicit "one minus" in what I said... :wink:

bigdjiver
2nd-November-2006, 02:33 PM
I'm so bored with this side-line carping. Go out there and do it better, then.and that all too common attitude is exactly why MJ is a marketing disaster. Anybody starting a venue one has to be pretty close to being a Jack-of-all-trades, and usually dancing is one of their main areas of expertise. A world-wide organisation needs "masters of one".
I cannot claim to be a master of any, and have just failed the "Couldn't organise a p**s-up in a brewery" test, and have "couldn't sell a life-jacket to a drowning man" on my CV. I have never wanted to run a venue. However I have learned enough from my I.T. career to know that statistics can be used to transform businesses, and misused to damage them.

El Salsero Gringo
2nd-November-2006, 02:39 PM
and that all too common attitude is exactly why MJ is a marketing disaster. Anybody starting a venue one has to be pretty close to being a Jack-of-all-trades, and usually dancing is one of their main areas of expertise. A world-wide organisation needs "masters of one".
I cannot claim to be a master of any, and have just failed the "Couldn't organise a p**s-up in a brewery" test, and have "couldn't sell a life-jacket to a drowning man" on my CV. I have never wanted to run a venue. However I have learned enough from my I.T. career to know that statistics can be used to transform businesses, and misused to damage them.You simply haven't got a clue about who is actually using which statistics, and how. Please - credit somebody, somewhere in the universe with some intelligence, apart from you.

Swinging bee
2nd-November-2006, 02:49 PM
[QUOTE=Andy McGregor;135262]And, Gus has got it wrong. Ceroc do not want "UK Domination". They want to take over the world. They're already in New Zealand, Australia and Singapore and I keep hearing snippets about the USA and Germany
How about China!........How would the chinese pronounce the word Ceroc?:rofl: any suggestions!

Andy McGregor
2nd-November-2006, 02:53 PM
How about China!........How would the chinese pronounce the word Ceroc?:rofl: any suggestions!See Wok?

Being invited to see wok would sound like an invitation to a stir-fry party.

Tessalicious
2nd-November-2006, 03:17 PM
Is a pendant the female equivalent of a pedant. Possibly with more jewellery?? :whistle:You're lucky I decided against being a viscous pendant.
Any mathematician would understand the implicit "one minus" in what I said... Oh, I knew what you meant - I'm just clarifying it, for the sake of confusing the argument.

Duh to both of you :na:

bigdjiver
2nd-November-2006, 03:47 PM
You simply haven't got a clue about who is actually using which statistics, and how. Please - credit somebody, somewhere in the universe with some intelligence, apart from you.

I was not quoting
somebody, somewhere in the universe I was responding to Mr. 99.99%


You simply haven't got a clue about who is actually using which statistics, and how.I never claimed that I did. I know I am "twitter and bisted" by my experiences of PhD's misusing statistics.

David Franklin
3rd-November-2006, 02:09 AM
2) Those stats show what a marketing disaster MJ is.I had occasion to make the following searches on Google:

"Viktor Andeke" jive - 104 matches
"Amir Giles" jive - 148 matches
"Chris Marques" salsa - 149 matches

Now given Chris Marques is a 3 times world Salsa champion, and that he's appearing several times a week on Strictly Come Dancing, I'm somewhat surprised how close the top MJ dancers seem to be in terms of internet presence. (Though I'm also surprised how unknown this '3 Times World Salsa Champion' seems to be!).

TheTramp
3rd-November-2006, 02:28 AM
I had occasion to make the following searches on Google:

"Viktor Andeke" jive - 104 matches
"Amir Giles" jive - 148 matches
"Chris Marques" salsa - 149 matches

Couldn't resist! Seems that I have 146 hits for my name (of course, they're all negative!). Craig Jeffries has 8, Franck Pauley has 46, Nina Daines has 98, Roger Chin is doing well with 194, Nigel Anderson is going very well with 268, but David Barker has 735* :worthy:




*Though, a quick look at the results seem to show that having a fairly common name does help! :na:

David Bailey
3rd-November-2006, 09:33 AM
New game!

887 for "[my name] jive" :)

OK, none of them are for me, as such, but what the hell.

NZ Monkey
3rd-November-2006, 10:50 AM
Woohoo! No hits for me!

Does that mean I don't exist, or just that I'm not taking a beating for doing Jive? :devil:

TheTramp
3rd-November-2006, 10:56 AM
Does that mean I don't exist, or just that I'm not taking a beating for doing Jive? :devil:

Probably the former... :flower:

ducasi
3rd-November-2006, 03:05 PM
New game!

887 for "[my name] jive" :)

OK, none of them are for me, as such, but what the hell.
Woo!!! I've got 6!

OK, so only 3 are actually about me...

And 2 of them are the same link from the same web site, so it's really only 2...

Um, and one of them is my own web site...

But there's one mention of my name in connection with Modern Jive out there on the Wild, Wild, Web! :clap:

bigdjiver
3rd-November-2006, 06:52 PM
Woo!!! I've got 6!

OK, so only 3 are actually about me...

And 2 of them are the same link from the same web site, so it's really only 2...

Um, and one of them is my own web site...

But there's one mention of my name in connection with Modern Jive out there on the Wild, Wild, Web! :clap:8 back for you from Dogpile, 3 being from your website - fame at last?

bigdjiver
6th-November-2006, 03:20 PM
... A lot less in cities, I expect, since there's a lot more competition for people's leisure activities.I do not believe that that is the most significant difference. My theory that the shires do so well because if a newcomer comes to a venue they are more likely to meet someone that they already know, if only vaguely. I believe that it helps considerably to have some point of reference in unfamiliar surroundings. I tried to make the same point about Taxi-dancers. It helps a beginner settle in if they know someone from last week. The crew, taxi-dancers and other beginners would help meet that requirement.
I would like to try targeting groups of people with promotions, so that people already know people when they come. I would try pitching a promo at an amatuer dramatic society, with an ad in their program. Here you have a group of actors who might regard dance as a useful skill, all with time on their hands once the performance is done. Here you have an audience that has time to read a detailed sales pitch, and who are also likely to know the actors and have seen one another at other performances. I think we might get a high retention rate from such a group, and that they would also become better than average ambassadors for MJ.

El Salsero Gringo
6th-November-2006, 03:23 PM
I would try pitching a promo at an amatuer dramatic society, with an ad in their program.Lovely. Please go try it. Come back and tell us whether it worked.

bigdjiver
6th-November-2006, 03:28 PM
You've certainly yet to convince me that marketing is one of yours.I am a marketing amatuer. Nevertheless I did well enough with my advertisements for my shop to be asked to join the marketing team for the launch of the Dragon Computer. Boots said at the time it was the most successful product launch they had ever had, and we had major suppliers begging for supplies. Whilst their sales were peaking management and policy changed, and I predicted to within a month using a Visicalc model and my noddle when Dragondata would go into liquidation. I am not foolish enough to believe that one example proves anything.

El Salsero Gringo
6th-November-2006, 03:42 PM
I am a marketing amatuer. Nevertheless I did well enough with my advertisements for my shop to be asked to join the marketing team for the launch of the Dragon Computer. Boots said at the time it was the most successful product launch they had ever had, and we had major suppliers begging for supplies. Whilst their sales were peaking management and policy changed, and I predicted to within a month using a Visicalc model and my noddle when Dragondata would go into liquidation. I am not foolish enough to believe that one example proves anything.Let me ask (in as neutral a tone as I possibly can) why then do you post a lone example?

bigdjiver
6th-November-2006, 05:07 PM
You simply haven't got a clue about who is actually using which statistics, and how. Please - credit somebody, somewhere in the universe with some intelligence, apart from you.I have worked in and around IT for decades. I would have to be very stupid indeed not to have seen that there are many, many dedicated, intelligent, hard working and well informed people out there. I am also aware that everybody has weaknesses, blind spots, and makes errors. I regret to say that I believe Ceroc HQ fits into both categories where the database and marketing are concerned.

I believe that the membership form should collect, as important marketing data, the information, as tick boxes, whether the "new member" has done partner dance before, has done MJ before, and has done Ceroc before.

I did suggest to Mike Ellard and to the database guy that those stats should be collected and got negative and nil responses. I believe that Ceroc HQ are in need of advice from a marketing expert and a database expert. I have enough experience of such "experts" to know that finding the right ones will not be easy. I believe that Ceroc should have complete ownership of its database. Intellectual property is one of the cornerstones of franchise operations.

I have added to my wish list the ability to be able to identify members that were introduced via Yellow Pages.

El Salsero Gringo
6th-November-2006, 05:12 PM
I have worked in and around IT for decades. I would have to be very stupid indeed not to have seen that there are many, many dedicated, intelligent, hard working and well informed people out there. I am also aware that everybody has weaknesses, blind spots, and makes errors. I regret to say that I believe Ceroc HQ fits into both categories where the database and marketing are concerned.

I believe that the membership form should collect, as important marketing data, the information, as tick boxes, whether the "new member" has done partner dance before, has done MJ before, and has done Ceroc before.

I did suggest to Mike Ellard and to the database guy that those stats should be collected and got negative and nil responses. I believe that Ceroc HQ are in need of advice from a marketing expert and a database expert. I have enough experience of such "experts" to know that finding the right ones will not be easy. I believe that Ceroc should have complete ownership of its database. Intellectual property is one of the cornerstones of franchise operations.

I have added to my wish list the ability to be able to identify members that were introduced via Yellow Pages.As I said, you really don't know how Ceroc are using which statistics, and nor do I. So it's pure speculation from beginning to end, isn't it?

bigdjiver
7th-November-2006, 02:10 AM
You've certainly yet to convince me that marketing is one of yours.The ads for my shop offered a computer, joysticks, some games and some other accessories - a "bundle". At the time just about everybody else sold those products as single items. I was well ahead of my time there. The computer I sold did not have a joystick option, so I wired joysticks across the keyboard matrix, giving me a unique selling point. I believe that Sinclair should have used that technique with the Spectrum which would have allowed it to use two joysticks for about 50p on the cost. Instead he opted for an expensive add on interface which she could not deliver on time. I spotted that market opportunity, and told Abtaar Pandaal of Kempston Microelectronics how to fit joysticks to the Spectrum. A few oldies might remember the Kempston Joystick interface.

Here we had an un-authorised add-on, and a chicken and egg situation. Nobody would buy those joysticks because there were not any games set up to use them. None of the games writers would write programs to use them because nobody had the joysticks. In the space of two hours on a wet mid-week afternoon I designed the interface, wrote a demo program, and solved that marketing problem at no cost. Mr. Pandall financed racing cars on the income from that.

Gus
7th-November-2006, 09:19 AM
While El Ass and BigBoy argue out the finer points of Marketing strategy, thought I would have a stab about bringing the thread back on thread.

As anyone who has done marketing will remember, Ceroc(tm) is not offering 'dance lessons' ... its is offering a 'bundle of benefits'. The benefit is the perception frfom the customers point of view, rather than the actual product. So, while Ceroc may provide a dance lesson, a bar and an opportunity to dance, the 'benefit' could be a chance to improve self esteem/confidence, a safe social environment, a pick-up joint, an escape from home/work life etc. When you look at it from a beenfit basis you can see the massive appeal. If you think about people who attend your local club, deep down you may identify some of these aspects.

So, if these are the real reasons that people go to Ceroc, the trick is to work out what benfits are most attractive to which sectors of the public and clearly communicate that. IMHO, that is where Ceroc et al have failed (to an extent) so far. However, given some of the bright bunnies involved, it may only be only a matter of time till there is the breakthrough we've been waiting for for the last 5 years or so.

TA Guy
7th-November-2006, 09:53 AM
As anyone who has done marketing will remember, Ceroc(tm) is not offering 'dance lessons' ... its is offering a 'bundle of benefits'. The benefit is the perception frfom the customers point of view, rather than the actual product. So, while Ceroc may provide a dance lesson, a bar and an opportunity to dance, the 'benefit' could be a chance to improve self esteem/confidence, a safe social environment, a pick-up joint, an escape from home/work life etc. When you look at it from a beenfit basis you can see the massive appeal. If you think about people who attend your local club, deep down you may identify some of these aspects.


That's all true, plus FUN of course :)
Personally tho, I don't think they'll win any marketing wars with those, none are unique, and that's what you need, a unique selling point.

I'm no marketing expert, but I would have thought one way to go would be to somehow piggy back on the huge following the recent explosion of dance programs has produced (dance fever, strictly dance etc.). I know it has an affect now, certainly my franchises numbers go up everytime one of the series gets into full flow, but I can't help feeling there's an opportunity being missed here if someone were to work out how to truly exploit them.

El Salsero Gringo
7th-November-2006, 10:06 AM
...but I would have thought one way to go would be to somehow piggy back on the huge following the recent explosion of dance programs has produced (dance fever, strictly dance etc.).Sheesh... you reckon? Better email Ceroc quick, before it's too late! :flower:

Gus
7th-November-2006, 10:27 AM
Personally tho, I don't think they'll win any marketing wars with those, none are unique, and that's what you need, a unique selling point.None of the components has to be a USP ... its the bundle of benefits that is its USP! Test the concept, think of a nother product/service which is accessible, as afforable and can give single/bored/non-active people such benefits? Obviously I've been very simple in the review (I'm trying to finish a report for a client .... which is far from engaging) but there is a whole range of segmentation, targetting and benefit delevery realisation work you can do ... and I'm just a general Business Consultant, not a Marketing specialist.

As for some of the comments made elsewhere about Ceroc(tm) not getting to grips with things, I take a simple view. Messr Ellard has sunk a lot of money into this venture and he wants to make heaps more, so he's pretty motoivated and focused. He's been succesfull in Finance and undoubtly has access to good business advisors whether as associates, friends, contacts or who are currently involved in Ceroc. Given all that, I would take a fair bet that Mike knows exactly how to expand Ceroc (to make it worth more money) and is working very hard out of sight to make it work. If its not yet dominated the UK I would guess its not for lack of trying.

TA Guy
7th-November-2006, 10:49 AM
None of the components has to be a USP ... its the bundle of benefits that is its USP! Test the concept, think of a nother product/service which is accessible, as afforable and can give single/bored/non-active people such benefits? Obviously I've been very simple in the review (I'm trying to finish a report for a client .... which is far from engaging) but there is a whole range of segmentation, targetting and benefit delevery realisation work you can do ... and I'm just a general Business Consultant, not a Marketing specialist.



I would guess the problem with the uniqueness being in the combination of selling points is that it basically does not make good type. Too many is too much.
Something needs to shout.

TA Guy
7th-November-2006, 10:51 AM
Sheesh... you reckon? Better email Ceroc quick, before it's too late! :flower:

Is that Irony or Sarcasm ? I can never be bothered to remember. :)

David Franklin
7th-November-2006, 11:35 AM
None of the components has to be a USP ... its the bundle of benefits that is its USP! Test the concept, think of a nother product/service which is accessible, as afforable and can give single/bored/non-active people such benefits? I think one problem is the "true" core market (single average-looking thirty-somethings who want to dance a bit but not take it too seriously) doesn't exactly sell it to people. So the marketing image makes out that the venues are filled with single good-looking twenty-somethings who can all give Darren and Lilia a run for their money on the dance floor. The question is, is this actually the best way of getting at the core market, or does it put them off?

Gus
7th-November-2006, 11:42 AM
The question is, is this actually the best way of getting at the core market, or does it put them off?There can be a difference between an image that is aspirational or identifiable. We used to use the clkassic shot of Viktor and Lydia as a brand image ... defintiely aspirational, but actualy found that many of our target market couldn't identify with the image and so there was no attraction. I had an intersting convresation with Angie (Ceroc NZ). She had already come to this conclusion and had stopped using the 'beautifull people' image exclusively. To attract new dancers, Jo Public has to percieve that they can do it. It essence its similar to the trend to using the likes of Jordan, Kerry Katona etc because people can identify more with the common girl done good than a supermodel.

Tessalicious
7th-November-2006, 11:43 AM
DF has a good point (as usual). Even when I was a single not-quite-twenty-something, I'd have been there a lot quicker if I'd known that it was full of single thirty-somethings. Unlike certain dances, which I'd love to learn but don't go to classes because I'm convinced they'll be full of skinny chav teenage girls (and I'm probably right).

El Salsero Gringo
7th-November-2006, 11:55 AM
I would be worried if Ceroc had a huge ballooning of new members over any short period. Amongst the most common complaints that one hears of venues is "there's no one there good to dance with" - or "they're all beginners". A massive influx can quickly turn to a massive outflux. To my eyes firm, steady growth is more manageable and more sustainable.

TA Guy
7th-November-2006, 12:06 PM
I think one problem is the "true" core market (single average-looking thirty-somethings who want to dance a bit but not take it too seriously) doesn't exactly sell it to people. So the marketing image makes out that the venues are filled with single good-looking twenty-somethings who can all give Darren and Lilia a run for their money on the dance floor. The question is, is this actually the best way of getting at the core market, or does it put them off?

Good point.

No venue I go to is filled with single good-looking twenty-somethings, or even just twenty-somethings.
On the other hand, I know my franchise's tendency to prefer younger teachers etc. when they can get them does have some kind of negative impact on a certain type of dancer (older, on the better side).

bigdjiver
7th-November-2006, 04:25 PM
...As anyone who has done marketing will remember, Ceroc(tm) is not offering 'dance lessons' ... its is offering a 'bundle of benefits'. The benefit is the perception frfom the customers point of view, rather than the actual product. So, while Ceroc may provide a dance lesson, a bar and an opportunity to dance, the 'benefit' could be a chance to improve self esteem/confidence, a safe social environment, a pick-up joint, an escape from home/work life etc. When you look at it from a beenfit basis you can see the massive appeal. ...The benefits to people is why I have a bit of missionary zeal about MJ.


... the trick is to work out what benfits are most attractive to which sectors of the public and clearly communicate that. IMHO, that is where Ceroc et al have failed (to an extent) so far. However, given some of the bright bunnies involved, it may only be only a matter of time till there is the breakthrough we've been waiting for for the last 5 years or so.Working out which and how is what concerns me. The Ceroc management is superb at hands-on, at the coalface, interaction. They know as much as is possible about why people stay from their experience. It is much more difficult to know why someone left after their first beginner lesson never to return, why people who would love MJ do not know it exists, and skip over your ads without reading them, and why people who do know it exists and would love MJ do not come along and try it. The big problem is to convert people from 0 visits to 1 visit.
We could get some information to help in this from the membership form, but it requires collecting the relevant information. Tick boxes are quick and easy, but if there is not a relevant tick box or an alternative text space you cannot collect that information. I would have crew helping with membership forms ask the open question "how did you first hear of Ceroc?", followed by, if necessary, something like "What persuaded you to come tonight." I believe that it is important to be able to collect that information on the database, and to plan for and prepare for huge success.
The basic question for many prospects is "What is it." If the most pathetic answer we can come up wih is "its like Salsa" then we are likely to lose those that do not like Salsa, whereas those that do like Salsa are likely to go to Salsa. We have to get MJ on prime time TV to achieve maximum growth. It is possible that Ceroc does not want maximum growth for MJ, but prefers to try an maintain controlled growth that it can manage. I would have had an introductory video clip on Ceroc.com years ago, like that on the website of Ceroc France .

bigdjiver
7th-November-2006, 04:49 PM
... I can't help feeling there's an opportunity being missed here if someone were to work out how to truly exploit them.That is what I believe. I trust Ceroc HQ and franchises to know about the interaction with customers viewpoint, but there is always a "not seeing the wood for the trees" aspect. Statistics can uncover trends of a few percent, and this is below the perception level of human beings in a "noise" situation, the noise being due to so many factors involved. The few percent does not seem relevant when you are making a good profit and are at your limits in work, but people bringing in people is similar to compound interet, and a few percent soon makes a vast difference over time. Perhaps Ceroc could finance a TV script competition with TV producers and writers as judges, featuring MJ and associated dance styles as part of the scenario, part of the prize being a collab with an established writer?

Andy McGregor
8th-November-2006, 10:09 AM
If posting as I did put an end to the rather dull "game" - your word - of moaning about how Ceroc isn't marketed right, then my only regret is that I didn't post it earlier.IMHO, Ceroc is marketed very well. It gets loads of beginners through the door. And it's a good thing that it does, because, IMHO, it fails to consistently deliver a product that matches up to the promises made in the marketing. As we're on a Scottish forum, I'm unable to comment on what the classes are like in Scotland*, but I find that many of the Ceroc classes I visit in the South East are poor in terms of teaching. Teaching should be, IMHO, a two-way process. Good teachers teach, they test, they correct and teach again where necessary. IMHO, you keep teaching until your pupils learn what you've taught. The difference is clear, there's teaching and there's learning and some people think they're the same thing. At the Ceroc classes I've been to recently they just teach. They don't seem to check that pupils have learnt anything. They don't dance with the pupils, they don't take a couple of minutes to give individual coaching, they don't correct bad habits - I've said it all before :yawn:

The poor teaching I witness is what really bugs me about Ceroc. As a competitor to Ceroc I see a danger that people will try the classes, find them lacking and not go back. This means potential customers of mine will have tried Modern Jive and will not be likely to try it again with an independent organiser.

You might argue that Ceroc can't be getting it all wrong as they're so successful. IMHO it's their marketing machine that's keeping it going. It's a bit like a leaky ship with a powerful bilge pump. The boat stays afloat because any water that gets in is pumped out quickly. Similarly, any people that don't come back are quickly replaced by more people that are attracted by the great marketing.

*All the evidence points to Ceroc Scotland getting it right. All the Scottish dancers I see are absolutely fab :flower:

El Salsero Gringo
8th-November-2006, 10:29 AM
IMHO, Ceroc is marketed very well. It gets loads of beginners through the door. And it's a good thing that it does, because, IMHO, it fails to consistently deliver a product that matches up to the promises made in the marketing. As we're on a Scottish forum, I'm unable to comment on what the classes are like in Scotland*, but I find that many of the Ceroc classes I visit in the South East are poor in terms of teaching. Teaching should be, IMHO, a two-way process. Good teachers teach, they test, they correct and teach again where necessary. IMHO, you keep teaching until your pupils learn what you've taught. The difference is clear, there's teaching and there's learning and some people think they're the same thing. At the Ceroc classes I've been to recently they just teach. They don't seem to check that pupils have learnt anything. They don't dance with the pupils, they don't take a couple of minutes to give individual coaching, they don't correct bad habits - I've said it all before :yawn:Ignoring the fact that this is a troll, I don't think you've been to enough Ceroc classes recently.:flower:

Andy McGregor
8th-November-2006, 11:08 AM
Ignoring the fact that this is a troll, I don't think you've been to enough Ceroc classes recently.:flower:Troll? :confused:

I've been to 4 different Ceroc classes recently. At every one I did not see the teacher dancing with the less talented dancers or offering individual feedback in any way whatsoever. At two of them the teachers spent most of their time chatting with the DJ, at another he spent most of his time chatting with the franchise holder (although I did have a nice dance with him :wink: ) and at the other the teacher spent most of her time sitting with the door person.

I regularly attend Ceroc classes and have not noticed any change 'recently'.

El Salsero Gringo
8th-November-2006, 11:15 AM
Troll? :confused:Yes, you know, a post designed to provoke, without containing anything interesting or useful. What does your critique of 4 (out of 250) Ceroc venues have to do with "Ceroc Domination"? (or even "Forum Temperature", as the title of your post says?) And particularly bearing in mind that you're a competitor to Ceroc?

Gus
8th-November-2006, 11:22 AM
IMHO, Ceroc is marketed very well. Would tend to disagree. Ceroc is marketed, but don't think its particularly good at the moment. Certainly, in the barren wastelands of the North the marketing is noticeable only by its absence.

.... but I find that many of the Ceroc classes I visit in the South East are poor in terms of teaching.Don't want to go over this old chestnut again, but the teaching is only a (small ?) part of the business proposition. The main element is 'having a good time', which is where Ceroc tends to succeed.

The poor teaching I witness is what really bugs me about Ceroc. As a competitor to Ceroc I see a danger that people will try the classes, find them lacking and not go back. This means potential customers of mine will have tried Modern Jive and will not be likely to try it again with an independent organiser.As a competitor you should see it as a tremendous opportunity. If you truly think you offer a better product then vast riches will be your young man. However, to universally associate Ceroc with poor teaching is a strong statement. Overall, Ceroc produces a consistent teacher standard. On average, this is way above the independents, but thats not to say that the best teachers are Ceroc. The advantage is that if you compare say, the two Ceroc teachers in the N West against the 25 or so independent teachers here, they are only a couple of the independents who can teach better.

Yes, of course Ceroc could do better .... but they are way better than most independents, and, for the most part, the independents would not be in business if it wasn't for Ceroc. Worth remembering sometimes.

Andy McGregor
8th-November-2006, 11:36 AM
Overall, Ceroc produces a consistent teacher standard. On average, this is way above the independents, but thats not to say that the best teachers are Ceroc. The advantage is that if you compare say, the two Ceroc teachers in the N West against the 25 or so independent teachers here, they are only a couple of the independents who can teach better.I do not judge teaching by the quality of teachers. I judge teachers by the quality of their students...



the independents would not be in business if it wasn't for Ceroc. Worth remembering sometimes.I wouldn't be in business if it wasn't for LeRoc. And, it's worth remembering that, if Ceroc had their way, I wouldn't be in business :tears:

El Salsero Gringo
8th-November-2006, 11:38 AM
I do not judge teaching by the quality of teachers. I judge teachers by the quality of their students...I think it's a while since we heard how wonderful your students are, Andy. Why don't you fill that void for us? :flower:

David Franklin
8th-November-2006, 11:39 AM
What does your critique of 4 (out of 250) Ceroc venues have to do with "Ceroc Domination"? It seems to me it was a natural response to your post:

I don't think you've been to enough Ceroc classes recently
so I'm not sure you can blame Andy if it's off topic.

(Though for the record, I'd agree with Gus, the teaching at Ceroc is actually one of its strengths. There are niches who want something different, but as a mainstream product, it's pretty darn good).

El Salsero Gringo
8th-November-2006, 11:42 AM
It seems to me it was a natural response to your post:

so I'm not sure you can blame Andy if it's off topic. It was Andy who launched into a detailed critique of the teaching of the entirety of Ceroc in England (in this post (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=303929#post303929) previous to mine) - unfortunately he didn't reveal it was based on a survey of a whole 4 venues, until I asked. I still don't see what it's got to with the thread topic. Obviously I'm dense.

Gus
8th-November-2006, 11:43 AM
And, it's worth remembering that, if Ceroc had their way, I wouldn't be in business :tears:Surely those days are long gone :whistle:

Gus
8th-November-2006, 11:44 AM
I think it's a while since we heard how wonderful your students are, Andy. Why don't you fill that void for us? :flower:To be fair, a local dancer I know was recently at Rocsters and commented on how good the dancers were.:eek:

David Franklin
8th-November-2006, 11:46 AM
I do not judge teaching by the quality of teachers. I judge teachers by the quality of their students...That's actually a pretty bad metric. I'm reminded of a dreadful lecturer at college. (Famously described by students as "X is probably one of the top two algebraists in the world. He is also undoubtedly the worst lecturer at Cambridge."). But he definitely had the best students - anyone who wasn't good at algebra gave up on his course really quickly.

Andy McGregor
8th-November-2006, 11:53 AM
To be fair, a local dancer I know was recently at Rocsters and commented on how good the dancers were.:eek::blush:

We all have good and bad dancers at our classes. At Rocsters we have dancers who make me proud and we have others who drive me to despair :tears:

By coincidence, and to repay the compliment, we had a couple turn up last night who've just moved to the area from Manchester. They were good dancers and had nothing but praise for Gus :flower:

El Salsero Gringo
8th-November-2006, 11:56 AM
:blush:

We all have good and bad dancers at our classes. At Rocsters we have dancers who make me proud and we have others who drive me to despair :tears:

By coincidence, and to repay the compliment, we had a couple turn up last night who've just moved to the area from Manchester. They were good dancers and had nothing but praise for Gus :flower:Oh just go and get a room, you two.

Andy McGregor
8th-November-2006, 11:56 AM
Obviously I'm dense.It's not obvious but I'll take your word for it :whistle:

bigdjiver
8th-November-2006, 04:09 PM
At three a.m. this morning I at last found my "magic bean" with the formula for growth buried in the statistics. We all have had our opinions, but now I know, and I can prove it.

And so, right or wrong, now I have to shut up, so there is some good news.

El Salsero Gringo
8th-November-2006, 10:56 PM
It's not obvious but I'll take your word for it :whistle:It's pretty bloody obvious to me.

cerebus636
9th-November-2006, 11:04 AM
Don't want to go over this old chestnut again, but the teaching is only a (small ?) part of the business proposition. The main element is 'having a good time', which is where Ceroc tends to succeed.

I think that you are at the same time both absolutely correct and also incorrect. Teaching is only part of the business proposistion, other elements are a venue that people like to go to, accesibilty, a bar etc and as you say, that people end up 'having a good time'. However, teaching is also very important because it can be a differntiator. If two venues are good and one has a better teacher than the other, which would you choose if you could only go out one evening?


As a competitor you should see it as a tremendous opportunity. If you truly think you offer a better product then vast riches will be your young man.

</QUOTE]< p>Competitors to Ceroc do see it as a tremendous opportunity and many use that (good teaching) to create packed out venues that have managed to keep Ceroc away. Ceroc franchises do try to open in or near competitor venues and the only way to keep them from muscling out the independant is for the indie venue to provide better lessons.


However, to universally associate Ceroc with poor teaching is a strong statement. Overall, Ceroc produces a consistent teacher standard.

Ceroc produces very good teachers, but it doesn't necessarily produce good teachers that can dance well.

Ceroc tries to get prospective teachers into the CTA (Ceroc Teachers Association) when they have about 18 months of dancing under their belt. After that, the prospect will be devolping bad habits and their own unique style, which the CTA very definitely does not want.

The CTA produces a consistant level of teacher and that teacher is the equivilant to a McDonalds hamburger. Now, I am only quoting James Cronin here when he famously said that 'Ceroc is the McDonalds of partner dancing'. Being McDonalds is not a bad thing. No matter where you go for a McDonalds, you know exactly what you will be getting, everywhere you will get the same taste and satisfaction(?).

Ceroc is like that. No matter where you go for a class, you know exactly what you are getting.

Remember, EVERY beginners class is scripted to the nth degree. The teachers are told which beginners routine to do on each night. This is both good and bad. Good because it means that beginners will not get duplicated classes in a given week, bad because the individuality of any given teacher will always be struggling to come out.

A lot of Ceroc teachers also rely on the Ceroc intranet and DVDs for getting new moves. Again this is good because it means that the teacher doesn't have to keep coming up with new moves. This is bad because many of the new moves are not really danceable in freestyle.

A good dancer (who is also a teacher) will be able to adapt these moves and moake them work really well. Many Ceroc teachers, I believe, do not have the dancing ability to make these adaptions and will instead just plough ahead, teach the move and never see it again on the dance floor.

How often do you a) See Ceroc teachers spend the whole night dancing. b) Actually do the moves they taught in the class?


On average, this is way above the independents, but thats not to say that the best teachers are Ceroc. The advantage is that if you compare say, the two Ceroc teachers in the N West against the 25 or so independent teachers here, they are only a couple of the independents who can teach better.

You need to break this down a bit more. Ceroc has a good system for teachers, it supports them, continually trains them and the result is a pretty good product.

Some indie venues have teachers who have basically gone "I can do better than that!" and are basically giving it a go. Some succeed, some do not.

However, you forget that LeRoc is also out there. It is an accreditation body that basically does the same thing as the CTA. The difference is that anyone can get trained and put themselves forward for the LeRoc examination. If your venue has a LeRoc accredited teacher, then they are equally trained as a Ceroc teacher is.


Yes, of course Ceroc could do better .... but they are way better than most independents, and, for the most part, the independents would not be in business if it wasn't for Ceroc. Worth remembering sometimes.

Ceroc could and should do a lot better. The problem is that the franchises are hamstrung by the CTA, in teacher recruitment and teaching style. If the CTA does not think a potential candidate is good enough to be trained, then they do not get past the induction day.

The problem is that the CTA have been known to reject all the candidates on induction days and on others only allow 1 or 2 out of 8. Again, this is both good and bad. Good because the CTA maintain a certain level of perceived quality. Bad because their definition of quality may not be the same as yours or mine. Bad also because it means that franchise owners have to find another candidate and put them forward. Each time they do this, it costs money. Inductions are once a month and places are limited, so franchise holders find that they are unable to expand their business due to lack of teachers. This can then force them to close down or to break away.

Also, to say that independents would not be in business if it wasn't for Ceroc is mis-guided. There is a whole network of indie venues out there doing their thing without any cross-over with Ceroc. Where there is cross-over, both Ceroc and the indie can prosper. We all know that when you start dancing that you want to go out as much as possible. Crossing from an indie night to Ceroc and back again is just plain sensible. The trouble comes when competing organisations open on the same night or within each others venues. The fee-paying public get to choose sides and the result usually isn't pretty.

The indies reach out to many different market sectors, many that Ceroc just doesn't go for at the moment. By doing this, the reach of MJ gets bigger.

My final though is this, Ceroc is McDonalds, indies can be 2am kebabs or Fillet Steak. At least we have variety ;-)

Gus
9th-November-2006, 11:48 AM
However, you forget that LeRoc is also out there. It is an accreditation body that basically does the same thing as the CTA. The difference is that anyone can get trained and put themselves forward for the LeRoc examination. If your venue has a LeRoc accredited teacher, then they are equally trained as a Ceroc teacher is.I would have to take issue with that. There are a number of LeRoc trained instructors in the North. They are universally poor (and I'm being polite). I would take it a personal affront, as an (ex) CTA graduate, that their training is anywhere near Ceroc standards! This is NOT a comment on the more established LeRoc teachers down south, particulalry in the Bristol area, but a comment on the result of LeRoc training.

Andy McGregor
9th-November-2006, 02:56 PM
This is NOT a comment on the more established LeRoc teachers down south, particulalry in the Bristol area, but a comment on the result of LeRoc training.And LeRoc will have you going back with the wrong foot too...:whistle:

The more I think about it the more I believe that Ceroc really are trying to dominate the UK. We've seen a whole load of new Ceroc venues open up in our area. With one exception they are near to an independent venue. We've also seen Ceroc muscle in on the whole weekender thing. And they are expanding worldwide too.

It seems to me that the LeRoc Federation should be seeing the whole Ceroc expansion as a considerable threat. But, quite literally, the LeRoc Federation are out of step with the rest of Modern Jive. What we need is a trade association for modern jive operators to ensure that the big fat boy doesn't have the run of the playground and steal all our sweets. With this in mind, in the last couple of months I've had a few independents mention forming a MJ Organisers Association. PM me if you're up for it and maybe we could have a satellite meeting at a weekender - an independent one, obviously:innocent:

El Salsero Gringo
9th-November-2006, 03:05 PM
Naturally, Andy, you'll be standing for president?...

I can hear the cogs whirring now. "On the one hand an independent organiser's assocation... on the other hand it gives McGregor a platform with our names behind it..."

And just out of interest, is Mikey invited to join?

Gus
9th-November-2006, 03:09 PM
What we need is a trade association for modern jive operators to ensure that the big fat boy doesn't have the run of the playground and steal all our sweets. Deja vu? Isn't this what they tried back in '89 when they coined the term 'Modern Jive'? :whistle:

Yup, Ceroc IS out to dominate ... its a business so the bigger it is, the more money they make. I don't have a problem with this per se, as long as its done ethically. However, after me saying the 'bad old days' are long gone, I then hear about how a certain Franchisee is playing a bit close to the wind with a new start-up :(.

Having said that, Ceroc in the North seems to have worked with existing groups :nice:

Will
9th-November-2006, 03:37 PM
With this in mind, in the last couple of months I've had a few independents mention forming a MJ Organisers Association. PM me if you're up for it and maybe we could have a satellite meeting at a weekender - an independent one, obviously
You'd better be careful what you call it, as ChrisA has already started the MJDA (Modern Jive Dance Association) (http://www.mjda.org/).

Perhaps your's could be called the "Modern Jive Dance Association Peoples Front"?

I mean after all, apart from :-

Devising a partner dance accesible to beginners
Developing a teaching formula to deliver dance training to the public on mass
Training hundreds of teachers to deliver dance training
Rolling out dance venues virtually the length and breadth of the country
Creating a dance community the size of which is second to none in comparision to any single dance style in any single country in the world.
Got more people dancing who never danced before than any other dance organization (of any form)

What has Ceroc ever done for us?


Will

Gus
9th-November-2006, 03:47 PM
You'd better be careful what you call it, as ChrisA has already started the MJDA (Modern Jive Dance Association) (http://www.mjda.org/).

Perhaps your's could be called the "Modern Jive Dance Association Peoples Front"?Nah, I think for an organsiation to work the name should reflect its aims. Therefore I suggest Andy's organisation should be called "Ceroc is Evil and must DIE Association". Has a certain ring to it?

David Bailey
9th-November-2006, 04:17 PM
Nah, I think for an organsiation to work the name should reflect its aims. Therefore I suggest Andy's organisation should be called "Ceroc is Evil and must DIE Association". Has a certain ring to it?
CEDA? CEDIEA? Doesn't sound very good to me.

Remember the first rule: think of the acronym first, then worry about what the letters stand for.

Liz
9th-November-2006, 04:40 PM
CEDA? CEDIEA? Doesn't sound very good to me.

Remember the first rule: think of the acronym first, then worry about what the letters stand for.

This looks like an interesting thread.

How about 'CO' (ceroc*d off!) or 'ICO' (I'm ceroc*d off!) or even 'BBC' (bully-boy-ceroc)? Especially as (allegedly) ceroc are telling DJ's who work for them that they must not work for any other organisation on the dance scene! :devil: Whatever next? Perhaps telling them they can't dance at other venues either?

David Bailey
9th-November-2006, 05:01 PM
Especially as (allegedly) ceroc are telling DJ's who work for them that they must not work for any other organisation on the dance scene!
Seriously, I very much doubt whether "Ceroc" HQ is telling anyone that - but I'd be willing to believe a Ceroc Franchisee is doing that.

I'd believe anything of some Ceroc Franchisees :rolleyes:

Lou
9th-November-2006, 06:07 PM
Rolling out dance venues virtually the length and breadth of the country
But Will, how would people at the back of the room see the teacher? :confused:

Andy McGregor
9th-November-2006, 06:34 PM
Naturally, Andy, you'll be standing for president?...You must be joking!

Having been in politics for many years I've had enough of volunteering to be on committees. I'm currently enjoying the peace of being an ordinary member of things I enjoy - and not letting people bully me into being on the committee/board/panel of things I'll find dull.

Having said all that, I'd be delighted to be a founder member of such an organisation. My guess is that it would be democratic - which, in my experience, means that somebody has to be bullied into being in the chair! Usually the person who doesn't step back quickly enough!*

*with either foot:whistle:

Andy McGregor
9th-November-2006, 06:36 PM
Seriously, I very much doubt whether "Ceroc" HQ is telling anyone that - but I'd be willing to believe a Ceroc Franchisee is doing that.

I'd believe anything of some Ceroc Franchisees :rolleyes:I have it on good authority that Ceroc HQ are stopping CTA trained teachers from teaching for independent organisers. The allow their teachers to teach for selected dance weekenders where it will inprove the reputation of Ceroc teachers - but that is all.

Gus
9th-November-2006, 06:38 PM
Especially as (allegedly) ceroc are telling DJ's who work for them that they must not work for any other organisation on the dance scene! :devil:In some areas that would mean doing the competition a HUGE favour :wink:

Andy McGregor
9th-November-2006, 06:41 PM
In some areas that would mean doing the competition a HUGE favour :wink:
:rofl:

El Salsero Gringo
10th-November-2006, 01:19 AM
I have it on good authority that Ceroc HQ are stopping CTA trained teachers from teaching for independent organisers. The allow their teachers to teach for selected dance weekenders where it will inprove the reputation of Ceroc teachers - but that is all.Were CTA trained teachers ever allowed to teach for independent promoters?

Andy McGregor
10th-November-2006, 02:27 AM
Were CTA trained teachers ever allowed to teach for independent promoters?I've no idea. I'm certain that the current situation is that they are not allowed to teach for independents. And, amazingly, I agree with Ceroc. After all, an independent could set up using just Ceroc teachers and make no effort to train teachers for themselves.

Gus
10th-November-2006, 08:58 AM
After all, an independent could set up using just Ceroc teachers and make no effort to train teachers for themselves.Isn't that fairly common? Of the 11 independants in our area, only 4 have trained their own teachers, 3 are run by punters turned teacher and 4 use teachers trained by others.

under par
10th-November-2006, 09:08 AM
I've no idea. I'm certain that the current situation is that they are not allowed to teach for independents. And, amazingly, I agree with Ceroc. After all, an independent could set up using just Ceroc teachers and make no effort to train teachers for themselves.

As far as teachers are concerned I tend to agree with you Andy especially as they have been through an element of training therefore some investment in pound shillings and pence.

But where do ceroc get off telling their DJs who they can work for??

Surely there is insufficient money in DJ ing to maintain a living purely with ceroc.!!

Where does restraint of trade fit into this equation?

Just a thought!

under par
10th-November-2006, 09:21 AM
Isn't that fairly common? Of the 11 independants in our area, only 4 have trained their own teachers, 3 are run by punters turned teacher and 4 use teachers trained by others.

Laws of supply and demand Gus just cause one company trains you they don't then own you. Obviously there should be some loyalty for a period of time.

If you go outside the dance world it happens everywhere all the time.

Andy McGregor
10th-November-2006, 11:05 AM
I've just had a thought about 'independents'. Ceroc are independent too. They're just a very big one! Any organisation of 'independent' MJ organisers would, IMHO, fail if all all they were set up to do was defend against the biggest independent of them all. Of course, an organisation with many members would be better placed to defend against sharp practices from any source. But they would also need to be about more if they were to become a true dance organisation. Off the top of my head they'd also need to offer some of the following;

Teacher training
Teacher accreditation
A promise to customers of certain standards (kite marking for want of a better description)
Insurance
Advice on PPL, PRS and MCPS
Legal advice
A pool of experience
Fabulous parties at their annual conference

Any other ideas?

Will
10th-November-2006, 11:45 AM
But they would also need to be about more if they were to become a true dance organisation. Off the top of my head they'd also need to offer some of the following;

Teacher training
Teacher accreditation
A promise to customers of certain standards (kite marking for want of a better description)
Insurance
Advice on PPL, PRS and MCPS
Legal advice
A pool of experience
Fabulous parties at their annual conference

Any other ideas?

Rather than try to start a new dance organisation with all of the above, why not just join Ceroc? They tick everything on that list already. Seems silly to re-invent the wheel.

I'm sure Adam will sell the Brighton Franchise to you for a very reasonable price :wink: (that's if he still owns it!)

Liz
10th-November-2006, 12:16 PM
Rather than try to start a new dance organisation with all of the above, why not just join Ceroc? They tick everything on that list already. Seems silly to re-invent the wheel.


Because reinventing the wheel is what drives competition, higher standards and a better deal for the customer! Otherwise we'd all still be living in caves!!

Andy McGregor
10th-November-2006, 12:25 PM
Because reinventing the wheel is what drives competition, higher standards and a better deal for the customer! Otherwise we'd all still be living in caves!!:yeah:

Have some rep:flower:

Andy McGregor
10th-November-2006, 12:31 PM
Rather than try to start a new dance organisation with all of the above, why not just join Ceroc? They tick everything on that list already. Seems silly to re-invent the wheel.

I'm sure Adam will sell the Brighton Franchise to you for a very reasonable price :wink: (that's if he still owns it!)I rather like freedom of choice. Getting involved in a franchise takes away most of your freedom - and quite a bit of your cash :tears:

I don't think Adam does own the Brighton Ceroc franchise as there's one starting up in January. I hear it's Sundays first and then other nights as and when. I will treat this new organiser in exactly the same way as I do all of the others. I'll offer leaflet exchange, co-operation regarding dance dates, co-promotion of events, etc, etc. All but one of the Sussex area organisers co-operates. The Ceroc franchisee will have to make a choice, and if they choose to join in they will be welcomed :flower:

But, the big question is, will Ceroc let the new Brighton Franchise holder join in with our local scene?

Liz
10th-November-2006, 03:26 PM
:yeah:

Have some rep:flower:

Thanks! :grin:

DavidY
10th-November-2006, 09:13 PM
New game!Bit late, but I couldn't resist: 9,860 hits for "My Name" Jive :whistle:
OK, none of them are for me, as such, but what the hell.:yeah: Not on the 1st 10 pages, at least..

*Though, a quick look at the results seem to show that having a fairly common name does help! :na::yeah:

Alice
11th-November-2006, 11:09 AM
Bit late, but I couldn't resist: 9,860 hits for "My Name" Jive :whistle::yeah: Not on the 1st 10 pages, at least..:yeah:

All I got was a lot of hits for one of the victims of Jack the Ripper:tears: :tears:
The word Jive didn't seem to have much effect on the results- unless of course the historians over the years have neglected the fact that she was a jive fanatic in her spare time:whistle: :whistle:

Nice to see these things* passed down in the family:wink: :devil:

(*the dancing, not the murder part:eek: )

Andy McGregor
11th-November-2006, 12:00 PM
I've just done a search for "Andy McGregor" jive and got 1020 hits. The first page is actually about me. But on page two there's an entry that starts "Balding Andy McGregor began it all with the pulsing techno of the early nineties" :tears:

Tessalicious
11th-November-2006, 04:43 PM
My search brings up nothing about me that I can see, but the second result says
The Bring Britney Spears to New Zealand petition to Jive was written by Tessa...:what:

MartinHarper
11th-November-2006, 04:59 PM
Ceroc-centrism is dull.


Creating a dance community the size of which is second to none in comparision to any single dance style in any single country in the world.

Last I heard, in the UK MJ is outnumbered by nightclub dancing and Salsa, probably more. Worldwide, several forms of dancing in the USA will outnumber the UK MJ contingent, simply because it's a much bigger country. I also expect that traditional dances in countries like India outnumber MJ.


Got more people dancing who never danced before than any other dance organization (of any form)

I doubt they've beaten Arthur Murray yet. Not that either of us have any numbers to back up our guesses.

El Salsero Gringo
11th-November-2006, 05:07 PM
I doubt they've beaten Arthur Murray yet. Not that either of us have any numbers to back up our guesses."Ceroc's No.2. We try harder." ???

Russell Saxby
11th-November-2006, 08:00 PM
Remember, EVERY beginners class is scripted to the nth degree. The teachers are told which beginners routine to do on each night. This is both good and bad. Good because it means that beginners will not get duplicated classes in a given week, bad because the individuality of any given teacher will always be struggling to come out.

Rubbish - two teachers teaching the same beginners routine and you say individuality will not shine through - of course it does.