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JoC
13th-July-2005, 09:01 PM
A question for leads... how would you feel, or do you feel, about receiving requests for moves?

Followers are broadly speaking at the mercy of the lead in terms of which moves are done during a dance, and this is fine as that's the whole point of leading and following. And in terms of learning moves you're going to pick the ones you like I know.

But...sometimes I find myself craving particular moves, or enjoying moves that I'd like to pass onto other leads as 'a move I especially like', in the hope that they might find they like it too and add it into their repertoire when dancing with me.

If I say it like it is, I'm talking about asking someone to learn a move I like but hopefully resulting in mutual benefit and enjoyment. I currently employ not very subtle hints like 'I really love that 'insert dodgy description' move' :whistle: .

(Me me me :rolleyes: )

So, dancing faux pas or would such occasional requests help solve the dilemma of which move to next add to your ever expanding repertoire...?

And fellow followers, agree, disagree with train of thought?
;)

Gadget
13th-July-2005, 09:22 PM
one problem: I never know what moves I have done, or the names of them. (especially if it's move just done in class) :blush:
I can bias my dancing (& have on request) to include more spins, less spins, some dips, use one hand in particular, include walks, include poses, give the lady lots of room, keep it simple...

What I tend to find is that when someone asks me to include something, I spend most of the dance trying to think on that something and how it can be done,.. and it flits out of the head untill I suddenly realise that my partner wanted to do/not do this and then there's a spate of three or four hasily done moves. :sick:

JoC
13th-July-2005, 09:34 PM
What I tend to find is that when someone asks me to include something, I spend most of the dance trying to think on that something and how it can be done,..:
I can understand that which is why I've tended to keep it to mentioning whilst chatting so far, rather than for a specific dance announcing that 'I would like to do the thingy move' (I'm with you when it comes to names but mime can be effective :grin: ).

Andreas
13th-July-2005, 09:53 PM
Well, I do know the names to the vast majority of all moves I do, though, you don't.

Apart from that, to be totally honest: I HATE IT! My former dance partner has done that a couple of times, well, tried. It makes me focus on what the follower wants for a move rather than what I feel the music dictates, consequently musical interpretation suffers due to distruction. :tears:

Funily, even if you'd say 'you can do drops' or 'you can spin me' would not end up in something that you'd enjoy. Somehow I have the very bad habit (sorry) to take that literally and throw the follower into anything that belongs to the requested group. The result is that the follower has lost orientation after the third move and it stops to be fun on behalf of both. So no, better not request, thank you ;)

El Salsero Gringo
13th-July-2005, 09:59 PM
I'm quite happy to be asked for a particular move, and quite often am - especially by one partner.

It's no problem for me to include it in a dance.

JoC
13th-July-2005, 10:43 PM
I HATE IT!......musical interpretation suffers due to distruction. :tears:...... it stops to be fun on behalf of both. So no, better not request, thank you ;)
So that's a no then? You sure?


I maybe should've split this into two scenarios, being asked to 'learn' a new move, and being asked to 'do' a move you already know.

(Would that make any difference Andreas because you didn't sound that convinced to me...)

Andreas
13th-July-2005, 10:44 PM
So that's a no then? You sure?


I maybe should've split this into two scenarios, being asked to 'learn' a new move, and being asked to 'do' a move you already know.

(Would that make any difference Andreas because you didn't sound that convinced to me...)

If you want to learn a move then I am happy to teach. But if you want to 'call what should be done during a song/night' I'll not comply.

I am sure my reasoning is pretty selfish: It disrupts my creativity, which the follower is exposed to during most of a dance. :blush:

JoC
13th-July-2005, 10:58 PM
If you want to learn a move then I am happy to teach.

I know it already, I want you to learn it :whistle::devil: (then use later at your leisure, preferably while I'm there...)

Pah, I was trying to avoid the smilies in honour of ESG's presence on the thread.

Andreas
13th-July-2005, 11:06 PM
Bring it on. For as long as it can be led anyway :flower:

ducasi
13th-July-2005, 11:30 PM
Something similar was recently suggested to me – that I establish a sort-of "library" of moves liked by my favourite partners. In combination we should find a move or two that we both really like and works well, and then the guy can surprise the lady with them, or the girl can request one of them without feeling she's placing a burden on the guy. I think it's a great idea. Thanks to the lady who suggested it. :flower:

I guess you have to be careful – as for men every partner will have a different favourite, while for followers, if everybody knows the moves you like, you'll find that everybody uses them and it may get a bit boring after a while...

I've never had any requests, but I've had one or two girls telling me how much they liked a particular move I did and have tried to always use it again with them to repeat the experience. Unfortunately, as my repertoire is still rather limited, currently all the ladies I dance with get pretty much all the moves I know!

(Anyway, I'm going to take a look at my DVDs this weekend to see if I can figure out a certain two moves... :whistle:)

bigdjiver
13th-July-2005, 11:49 PM
I like all of the feedback I can get. I hate it because I cannot remember it from week to week - too many partners, and a very poor dance memory.

El Salsero Gringo
14th-July-2005, 12:57 AM
Pah, I was trying to avoid the smilies in honour of ESG's presence on the thread.Hey, don't mind me. In any case, you're far from being first on the list to be put up against the wall when the smilie revolution comes.

MartinHarper
14th-July-2005, 01:49 AM
I am content for a woman to ask me to try a certain move with her, if I can already lead the move, she is of a sufficient standard to follow it cleanly, the move is appropriate to the conditions, and she doesn't anticipate it or backlead it. Otherwise, I'll say no.

I am happy to learn which moves a woman likes and dislikes, as I can use that information, aggregated over all the women I dance with, as well as my own likes and dislikes, to influence which moves I might learn, or learn better.

I dance with maybe a hundred different women on a regular or semi-regular basis. I learn, to my satisfaction, about one move a month. If I accepted just one request from each of these women, it would take me over eight years, by which time their tastes would all have changed, and many of them would no longer be dancing.

I am entirely happy for a woman to select every single move we do in every single one of our dances, with just one proviso: she leads them, and I (attempt to) follow them. That would be a good example of "mutual benefit and enjoyment".

robd
14th-July-2005, 08:32 AM
I've never had any requests, but I've had one or two girls telling me how much they liked a particular move I did and have tried to always use it again with them to repeat the experience. Unfortunately, as my repertoire is still rather limited, currently all the ladies I dance with get pretty much all the moves I know!


Snap! I forewarned one lady last night who asked me to dance (after I had asked for and enjoyed a dance with her earlier) that she might experience a serious case of Deja Vu!

Robert

JoC
14th-July-2005, 09:40 PM
Thanks for all the replies chaps, I shall probably proceed as I do now, by mentioning if I think a move is particularly fab, during chats. Whoever I've told can then choose what they wish to do with this information. Some will undoubtedly ignore, others may be sufficiently intrigued to investigate further.
As for asking for a particular move in a dance that someone already knows, and that I'd like to learn/improve, well I'll probably ask nicely someone I hope wont mind showing me. :)

JoC
14th-July-2005, 09:43 PM
I am happy to learn which moves a woman likes and dislikes, as I can use that information, aggregated over all the women I dance with, as well as my own likes and dislikes, to influence which moves I might learn, or learn better.

That's the sort of result I had in mind. :grin:

MartinHarper
14th-July-2005, 11:31 PM
It's also worth mentioning if you find a move cra^H^H^H less than 100% fab. A couple of women today said that some move in the intermediate class was "vile", for example, and that's useful info. (it may only have been vile the way I did, to be fair).

ChrisA
14th-July-2005, 11:49 PM
It makes me focus on what the follower wants for a move rather than what I feel the music dictates, consequently musical interpretation suffers due to distraction. :tears:

Are your dance partners required to call you "Sir" as well? :whistle:

David Bailey
15th-July-2005, 08:53 AM
Are your dance partners required to call you "Sir" as well? :whistle:
I'm with Andreas on this one - but then that could just mean I'm also a control freak.

I sometimes vaguely recall that one of my regular dance partners likes a particular move - and if I do, and if the music fits, then I'll put it in. But I won't warp the entire dance style trying to cram it in. If the follower likes the move, perhaps she should become a leader and lead it... :whistle:

John S
15th-July-2005, 10:07 AM
A few points:

I like feedback on whether my partner likes a particular move or not, and I try to remember next time (but usually fail and either do or don't do it anyway).

There's a market for embedding/consolidating all the new moves that are taught every week at intermediate classes or weekend workshops. If we men remembered them all and incorporated them into our routines, it would be pretty wonderful (especially for our partners!). Maybe it would help if each week one of the intermediate class moves were to be carried over to the next week's routine, as in the beginners' class?

Ladies in particular get a bad deal where they have paid their money for a class or weekend workshop, learned the moves perfectly, then never get the chance to dance them because their dance partners weren't at the workshop or couldn't quite get the moves, and so fallback on the tried and tested routines they know (and I know I'm guilty of this).

So yes, JoC, bring on the requests for particular moves - you've paid your money, so shape the dance experience so you get the most out of it!

David Bailey
15th-July-2005, 11:51 AM
If we men remembered them all and incorporated them into our routines, it would be pretty wonderful (especially for our partners!).
:eek: I suspect turning into Evil Move Monsters would not be wonderful for all our partners - especially the world-famous "27 count triple hatchback secret move columbiun headchopper hanger frozen marguerita with a slice of lemon and an olive combo." move...


Ladies in particular get a bad deal where they have paid their money for a class or weekend workshop, learned the moves perfectly
Do ladies (followers) learn moves at workshops? Why? :confused:

I'd have thought ladies (followers) would want style and following techniques, not to learn moves. Hell, I'm not even sure if workshops should teach moves to leaders, but I dunno, I've never done a workshop, ( :tears: )


So yes, JoC, bring on the requests for particular moves - you've paid your money, so shape the dance experience so you get the most out of it!
Nah, I'm still in the Andreas Control Freak Camp on this one - providing the creativity to shape the dance experience is to me mainly the lead's job.

John S
15th-July-2005, 12:17 PM
the world-famous "27 count triple hatchback secret move columbiun headchopper hanger frozen marguerita with a slice of lemon and an olive combo." move...
Point taken, especially with more complex moves - however, simple ones like you describe above should be no problem to the average dancer.


Do ladies (followers) learn moves at workshops? Why? :confused: .
Same reason as they learn moves in a Ceroc class, I guess, so they can follow them properly when they're led properly!


Nah, I'm still in the Andreas Control Freak Camp on this one - providing the creativity to shape the dance experience is to me mainly the lead's job.
Ceroc may be a male-led dance, but it sure as hell has to be a partner dance to get the full range of style and creativity!

Lou
15th-July-2005, 12:24 PM
A couple of women today said that some move in the intermediate class was "vile", for example, and that's useful info. (it may only have been vile the way I did, to be fair).Nope. I never did that particular move with you, and it was definitely vile with most other men. (There were only two with whom it actually worked). I'd assume that most men wouldn't want to include it anyway - so I wouldn't not request it (if you know what I mean by that double negative).

(btw.. The Vile Move: start with a left over right crossed double hand hold. Wrap the lady in by turning her a fair few times. Try not to wrench her arm out of her socket as you "encourage" her to sit on your knee. Unwrap to taste).

Gadget
15th-July-2005, 12:25 PM
Maybe it would help if each week one of the intermediate class moves were to be carried over to the next week's routine, as in the beginners' class?
:D Lorna does this most weeks. The move chosen is done by a show of hands. Good because it gives the teacher a chance to add some styling or additional lead/follow tips to the move. Sort of pants if you don't like the choice, but that's democracy for you. :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

David Bailey
15th-July-2005, 12:37 PM
(btw.. The Vile Move: start with a left over right crossed double hand hold. Wrap the lady in by turning her a fair few times.
Errr, surely you can only turn once, with a double-handed hold?

Lou
15th-July-2005, 12:39 PM
Errr, surely you can only turn once, with a double-handed hold?
Actually, it was practically one and a half, in order to get the lady into the correct lock position - so that we're* trapped into having to sit on the chap's knee.

(*I was a woman last night, obviously).

Andreas
15th-July-2005, 12:42 PM
I won't warp the entire dance style trying to cram it in. If the follower likes the move, perhaps she should become a leader and lead it... :whistle:

I should give you some more rep for that one but need to give ti to others first :cheers:

David Bailey
15th-July-2005, 12:42 PM
Actually, it was practically one and a half, in order to get the lady into the correct lock position - so that we're* trapped into having to sit on the chap's knee.
I get it - ooer, The Vile Move sounds like an excellent description.

Almost as bad as the Archie Spin... :whistle:

Zebra Woman
15th-July-2005, 12:56 PM
Oh that move?!

This has just reminded me of my second from worst ever dancing accident.

I was being led into the vile move.... :sick:

I could see the knee.

I didn't know whether I was expected to sit astride it (treble vile :sick: ) or sit sideways like a secretary taking notes sitting on the side of a desk, or walk around the man while he knelt on the floor. :really:

I hesitated...then I made a choice (astride) :rolleyes:

At that point my lead overbalanced backwards so he was lying flat on the floor. :eek:

Too late, by then I had already assumed the 'astride' position on top of him. :eek: :eek: :eek:

Luckily the man wasn't hurt and had VVGSOH

Oh, how we 'improvised' :drool: :devil:

Er.... I mean. Oh, how we laughed :rofl:

killingtime
15th-July-2005, 01:26 PM
I'd certainly be ok with a woman asking if I could fit in a certain move. Often I'll do the same move a few times in a dance just because I want to try and perfect that move. I fully understand my partner might also want to do just the same and work on a move for whatever reason (maybe they just like it :nice:).

I mean I do this with people who have less moves under their belts than I do anyway (I've just really started intermediate sessions so I'm not a seasoned dancer by any means) where we go over the beginners moves that lesson and maybe branch from there.

I'd prefer if she told me at the start rather than hollering out names part way through :D.

bigdjiver
15th-July-2005, 02:23 PM
The last few requests I have had have been for "pulling through the legs" and moves involving turning the lady upside down. These are moves I am loath to request and introduce in freestyle because I think the ladies might hate them. I am wondering if I should try them more often. Unfortunately there are to few ladies that will say that they do not like a particular move, or that they would like to try a more adventurous one.

JoC
16th-July-2005, 06:55 PM
It's no use, I tried to resist...


But I won't warp the entire dance style trying to cram it in. :rofl: Ya big drama queen!!! And same to Andreas for agreeing. :na:


If the follower likes the move, perhaps she should become a leader and lead it... :whistle:All in good time my friend, with 3 lessons as lead under my belt I'll be snapping at your heels in no time. :D

So, I have another thing added to my list for if I ever have the pleasure of a dance, for winding up, or avoiding purposes depending on whether I'm feeling :innocent: or :devil: . Hat of course being number one.

David Bailey
16th-July-2005, 09:44 PM
It's no use, I tried to resist...
Give in to temptation, I always do.


:rofl: Ya big drama queen!!! And same to Andreas for agreeing. :na:
Technically, I was agreeing with Andreas, but yes, we're both pretty precious :innocent:


with 3 lessons as lead under my belt I'll be snapping at your heels in no time. :D
That's a new move on me... :confused:

Andreas
16th-July-2005, 10:43 PM
Technically, I was agreeing with Andreas, but yes, we're both pretty precious :innocent:

Thank you so much! And I already thought only my mother was able to recognise my actual value. :rofl:

Purple Sparkler
18th-July-2005, 11:37 AM
I don't ask for moves from partners, and just hope in the cases of people I dance with a lot that they'll include ones I especially like when I'm dancing with them. I'm not usually disappointed. Just enjoy the dance for what it is, and don't worry about particular moves.

As for the moves done in class, one particular forumite (you know who you are) has told me before that I'm the only one who will put up with him practicing the moves from the lesson. I never mind practicing if he wants to, I just enjoy the dance. The same would be true of any partner, though obviously I'd get a bit bored if the entire freestyle was taken up with practicing moves from the class.

Though I would like to point out to DavidJames that the more complex (and thus more interesting) intermediate moves- and most of the LESS complex ones- still require the follower to know what the hell they're doing. This is why beginner women don't do the advanced class, if you see what I mean.
It's also why you have to concentrate when dancing with Rhythm King. He's not someone you can anticipate.

David Bailey
18th-July-2005, 12:28 PM
Though I would like to point out to DavidJames that the more complex (and thus more interesting) intermediate moves- and most of the LESS complex ones- still require the follower to know what the hell they're doing. This is why beginner women don't do the advanced class, if you see what I mean.
Totally - following is a definite and distinct skill, which IMO Ceroc don't teach as much as they should. Passive following doesn't mean not concentrating / being a good follower. I'd expand that phrase, in fact, to say that all moves are improved by better following skills, complex or otherwise.

The follower-lead relationship gets more complex the more you think about it, it's not at all a simple case of Do What The Leader Tells You, and I don't think either I or Andreas were saying that.

But to me there's definitely more "overall creativity" in the leader role, in terms of interpreting the flow of the whole dance - invitationally, sure, but still interpreting. To my mind, follower skills are more at the "tactical" level of interpreting each invitation as it comes along.

Sorry, I know this all sounds very precious and control-freaky, but I can't think of another easy way to describe the process.


It's also why you have to concentrate when dancing with Rhythm King. He's not someone you can anticipate.
:clap: for RK, that's the way it should be. Straightjackets, that's the way to go... :)

JoC
18th-July-2005, 12:58 PM
Do ladies (followers) learn moves at workshops? Why? :confused:
I'd have thought ladies (followers) would want style and following techniques, not to learn moves.

Was PS's reply to this bit? :innocent:
Agree though that a lot of the learning for a follower is maybe more accurately described as interpretation of lead signals. But then you could perhaps describe a lead/follow 'unit' as a move, which means the ladies are learning moves, couldn't you? Or is a 'move' the whole shimmy, shebang, swizzle and return added together... oh dear I've jumped in now

David Bailey
18th-July-2005, 02:32 PM
Was PS's reply to this bit? :innocent:
Agree though that a lot of the learning for a follower is maybe more accurately described as interpretation of lead signals. But then you could perhaps describe a lead/follow 'unit' as a move, which means the ladies are learning moves, couldn't you? Or is a 'move' the whole shimmy, shebang, swizzle and return added together... oh dear I've jumped in now
Ooh, "shimmy, shebang, swizzle and return", sounds like a great move to me!

My main point, slightly tongue-in-cheek, was that if a follower has to learn a signal to do a move, or even has to learn a move, I'm not that impressed with that move. Followers should learn to follow, leads should learn to lead.

David "Master Of The Obvious Universe" they call me...

JoC
18th-July-2005, 02:36 PM
Ooh, "shimmy, shebang, swizzle and return", sounds like a great move to me!

Does that mean I've just successfully manipulated you into learning a move that I would like you to do with me?

David Bailey
18th-July-2005, 02:48 PM
Does that mean I've just successfully manipulated you into learning a move that I would like you to do with me?
Err... dunno, have you? :whistle:

I thnk "wibble" is the appropriate answer again.

JoC
18th-July-2005, 02:56 PM
Err... dunno, have you? :whistle:
It was a devious route using a diversionary tactic but I'm sure it worked, victory is mine.

David Bailey
18th-July-2005, 02:59 PM
It was a devious route using a diversionary tactic but I'm sure it worked, victory is mine.
Fine, I'm off to Windsor races for the afternoon, I'll have to grudgingly concede victory. :tears:

JoC
18th-July-2005, 03:07 PM
Fine, I'm off to Windsor races for the afternoon ...and as I'm stuck in the office for another several hours I have to concede that you get the last laugh there

animaltalk
18th-July-2005, 07:47 PM
I like all of the feedback I can get. I hate it because I cannot remember it from week to week - too many partners, and a very poor dance memory.

I have to agree :)
Love feedback - poor memory - too many ladies :blush: :blush:

Ideally tell me before track starts -easier to slot in
Also happy to be reminded. - My priority is to give you the best dance I can, and that means giving you your favourite moves to the current tune - But then I also like ladies sabotaging me and enforcing their own breaks/shines/improvisation - Kind of saying to me "I'm feeling this, What about yo?"

I'll may or may not agree but I do like the input - otherwise I'd go and dance with a hatstand :rofl:

PS - Guaranteed way to get second/third dance - If I fail to fit it muscially in before the end of the song . . .Worth trying?? :whistle:

Daisy Chain
18th-July-2005, 08:05 PM
Do ladies (followers) learn moves at workshops?




I don't. I don't need too (praps I'm odd?). After all, in freestyle it's the man's job to lead me properly. IMHO, a lady doesn't need to know any moves if she can respond to the man's lead.

Workshops are useful for the ladies if the follower on the stage is stylish. We can watch her and nick style points and subtle body movements with which to impress the men at a later date.

BTW Boys, I really like that walky, flippy, spinny move that we did in class last week so be sure to incorporate it every time you dance with me. Ta.

Daisy

(An Observant Little FLower)

Gojive
18th-July-2005, 08:29 PM
I don't. I don't need too (praps I'm odd?). After all, in freestyle it's the man's job to lead me properly. IMHO, a lady doesn't need to know any moves if she can respond to the man's lead.

Workshops are useful for the ladies if the follower on the stage is stylish. We can watch her and nick style points and subtle body movements with which to impress the men at a later date.

BTW Boys, I really like that walky, flippy, spinny move that we did in class last week so be sure to incorporate it every time you dance with me. Ta.

Daisy

(An Observant Little FLower)

I looked out for you at Nantwich the Saturday before last Daisy, to show you just such a move....but alas, you were elsewhere apparently, leaving the Mavericks to play "Dance the night away" to a room utterly devoid of walky, flippy, spinny things :tears: . Next time D, next time...... :wink:

I have no problem with anyone asking me about any move, and I'm happy to help in anyway I can....I just don't always know what which move they're talking about! :blush: