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Dance Demon
13th-July-2005, 08:33 AM
Hmmm.... what about MJ'ers who dance at independent venues in, say, a city in the South West of England, and therefore don't have these "membership numbers" of which you speak? Or are we to be excluded from your clique? Smacks of Hotshot behaviour to me.... :whistle: :innocent: :wink:


Prompted by a comment by Lou on another thread..........what exactly is an "Independant Organisation"?........Is it one that operates purely under it's own banner. If So are all dance organisations not "Independant"...including the larger ones........ or are independants so called because they are" independant " of the larger ones....... and if so...what does that make the larger ones..:devil: :D

Lou
13th-July-2005, 09:12 AM
:D Oh, DD! It was just a term I used to point out that some of us dance at classes that aren't part of a bigger Collective™, and so have no need of "membership numbers".

Besides, I am not a number, I am a free... oh, drat! :na:

Andy McGregor
13th-July-2005, 11:33 AM
I am not a number, I am a free... .. man?

Just couldn't resist it :devil:

David Franklin
13th-July-2005, 11:58 AM
Top Ten Signs Your Venue May Not Be Independent:

10. Joining forms only slightly less complicated than your tax return.
9. It's like the Stepford Wives - all the teachers are mysteriously young and good looking.
8. "Footwork? What footwork?"
7. Teacher insists on counting "5, 6, 7, 8" rather than the much cooler "zip, zap, zippety, zappety".
6. Staff greet you with a scanner.
5. You discover the girl in the black and orange T-shirt who keeps asking you to dance doesn't fancy you - she just thinks you really need help. :tears:
4. Teacher thinks "No, your other left" is the funniest joke ever.
3. All move names include a (tm).
2. Nigel still not allowed in your venue...

And the number one sign your venue may not be independent:

1. "Semi-circle to the left, and step back..."

Andy McGregor
13th-July-2005, 12:42 PM
9. It's like the Stepford Wives - all the teachers are mysteriously young and good looking.If my venue stopped being independent would I suddenly become younger and better looking?

Anna
13th-July-2005, 12:49 PM
And the number one sign your venue may not be independent:

1. "Semi-circle to the left, and step back..."

That semi circle to the left deal is tragic, we never used to have it out here til my dance partner arrived from the UK and continued teaching out here.

He ALWAYS says it in the classes.. like at least SIX TIMES.. and i have to stand there and attempt to keep a straight face while watching the class look at him with confused faces..

cos us kiwi's dont even know what a semi circle is, let alone where our left's at :rofl: :rofl:

David Franklin
13th-July-2005, 12:56 PM
If my venue stopped being independent would I suddenly become younger and better looking?Either that or you'd be 'disappeared'. I guess it depends which option is more difficult:

[Wayne's world / Scooby Doo ripple/fade into fantasy world]

Wizard of 'roc: Andy, as a reward for joining the collective, I can grant you one wish.

Andy: I want my venue to be the greatest on the planet. I want magic air conditioning units that keep the air as cool and fresh as a spring morning. I want the dance floor to be at least 1 square mile, and made of purest gold. It must have huge chandeliers using nothing but the finest diamonds. The bars must serve nothing but the finest champagne (free of charge).

Wizard of 'roc: You ask too much. Do you know how hard it is to find gold deposits these days? And for a whole square mile. And the airconditioning - Maxwell's Demon is all very well in theory, but do you know how many of the bugg*rs you need to cool somewhere that big? And the chandeliers - it's hard work squeezing a lump of coal into a diamond you know. And who's going to know if it's diamond anyway? And the champagne - with the amount dancers drink?

Andy: Well OK - maybe you could just make me young and good looking.

Wizard of 'roc: {pauses}...So, how many chandeliers do you want for this venue?

(Yes, I know it's an old joke...)

ChrisA
13th-July-2005, 01:13 PM
2. Nigel still not allowed in your venue...

:grin:

Although, in fairness, ISTR in the RebelRoc take-over blurb wasn't there something about N&N continuing to do a monthly class...??

Andy McGregor
13th-July-2005, 01:18 PM
:grin:

Although, in fairness, ISTR in the RebelRoc take-over blurb wasn't there something about N&N continuing to do a monthly class...??I went to it last week. But the venue is currently branded RebelRoc. Will N&N continue to teach there when the venues are fully assimilated?

clevedonboy
13th-July-2005, 01:56 PM
I went to it last week. But the venue is currently branded RebelRoc. Will N&N continue to teach there when the venues are fully assimilated?
When we were at a workshop with N&N recently I'm sure they kept saying soto voce "Resistance is futile"

MartinHarper
13th-July-2005, 02:15 PM
Teacher insists on counting "5, 6, 7, 8" rather than the much cooler "zip, zap, zippety, zappety"

I do have a soft spot for Frankie Manning's "a-one, a-two, you know what to do". I also liked Jordan and Tatiana's "five, six, ready, go", which I thought had cool cultish overtones going on.

Minnie M
13th-July-2005, 02:18 PM
Top Ten Signs Your Venue May Not Be Independent:

10. Joining forms only slightly less complicated than your tax return.
9. It's like the Stepford Wives - all the teachers are mysteriously young and good looking.
8. "Footwork? What footwork?"
7. Teacher insists on counting "5, 6, 7, 8" rather than the much cooler "zip, zap, zippety, zappety".
6. Staff greet you with a scanner.
5. You discover the girl in the black and orange T-shirt who keeps asking you to dance doesn't fancy you - she just thinks you really need help. :tears:
4. Teacher thinks "No, your other left" is the funniest joke ever.
3. All move names include a (tm).
2. Nigel still not allowed in your venue...

And the number one sign your venue may not be independent:

1. "Semi-circle to the left, and step back..."

:yeah: Brilliant :rofl: wish I could give you rep, but too soon after the last lot :blush: :hug:

Minnie M
13th-July-2005, 02:25 PM
Wizard of 'roc :innocent:
I would have said "Friary Roc Mother" - Or is that Andy's name :whistle:

KatieR
13th-July-2005, 02:57 PM
That semi circle to the left deal is tragic, we never used to have it out here til my dance partner arrived from the UK and continued teaching out here.

He ALWAYS says it in the classes.. like at least SIX TIMES.. and i have to stand there and attempt to keep a straight face while watching the class look at him with confused faces..

cos us kiwi's dont even know what a semi circle is, let alone where our left's at :rofl: :rofl:

We dont use it in OZ either (well not in Adelaide anyway) and I dont think Nicky and Robert in Sydney teach it either. It looks quite naff if you ask me.

Purple Sparkler
13th-July-2005, 03:08 PM
What Is An Independant Venue

Prompted by a comment by Lou on another thread..........what exactly is an "Independant Organisation"?........Is it one that operates purely under it's own banner. If So are all dance organisations not "Independant"...including the larger ones........ or are independants so called because they are" independant " of the larger ones....... and if so...what does that make the larger ones..:devil: :D

I know! I know! An independant venue is a mis-spelled independent venue.

Sorry, but I think you'll find it's pronounced pedant... (and yes I know I've used that one before)

CJ
13th-July-2005, 03:09 PM
We dont use it in OZ either (well not in Adelaide anyway) and I dont think Nicky and Robert in Sydney teach it either. It looks quite naff if you ask me.

KatieR,

what do you think of the semi-circle to the left/right currently used in some non-independant dance classes??

:flower:

Lou
13th-July-2005, 04:59 PM
I know! I know! An independant venue is a mis-spelled independent venue.
Good point. :) Since the introduction of the slo comb (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=129140&postcount=31)™, a true independent organisation should be more particular with its spelling!

Dance Demon
13th-July-2005, 05:04 PM
Hmmm..... i just wondered why it seems that anything that isn't Ceroc, is classed as an independent. So we have large Companies which operate in various regions, and we have small local operations. But sureley if they all operate independently of each other, they are all "independent"...including the large ones............So why is it when people ask " is there any dancing in *where ever*" the response is often " well there's *this venue*, but it's not Ceroc(tm)..it's an Independent......independent of what? :confused:

bigdjiver
13th-July-2005, 07:35 PM
I know! I know! An independant venue is a mis-spelled independent venue...
or hanging out there ...

or corruption of "in deep end, ennit?"

David Bailey
13th-July-2005, 08:17 PM
Hmmm..... i just wondered why it seems that anything that isn't Ceroc, is classed as an independent. So we have large Companies which operate in various regions, and we have small local operations. But sureley if they all operate independently of each other, they are all "independent"...including the large ones............So why is it when people ask " is there any dancing in *where ever*" the response is often " well there's *this venue*, but it's not Ceroc(tm)..it's an Independent......independent of what? :confused:
:yeah:
To me, an "independent" is a single-person franchise - Leroc etc. are just "other organisations" which happen to be not Ceroc.
For example, independent MPs - interestingly, George Galloway is not called an independent MP, but "The Respect MP", simply because he belongs to an organisation.

Lou
13th-July-2005, 10:02 PM
:yeah:
To me, an "independent" is a single-person franchise - Leroc etc. are just "other organisations" which happen to be not Ceroc.
For example, independent MPs - interestingly, George Galloway is not called an independent MP, but "The Respect MP", simply because he belongs to an organisation.
No.

No no no no no.

*sob*

How many times do I have to say it. LeRoc is not an organisation. It's a bleedin' generic term. :rolleyes:

Let me explain by means of examples.

The lovely forumista John Eastman runs Clifton LeRoc. He has absolutely no affiliation with the equally lovely Sherif Uthman, who runs LeRoc2000. Neither John, nor Sherif, have any business relationship with the everso lovely Steve Wannacott of Kingswood LeRoc. These people are all INDEPENDENT, as are their organisations. And then there's other Bristol groups, and Welsh groups, and when it comes down to our cousins in Brighton.... :eek: :D

LeRoc is a dance.

Ceroc™ is a business.

Now, when it comes to mid-sized organisations, like yer Blitzes and yer MoJives, etc, it might be different. But I cannot comment on them.

And how can a franchise be independent? It's like saying one branch of Dominos Pizzas is independent of the others. OK - so the management might differ, but the menu is identical.

philsmove
13th-July-2005, 11:13 PM
..............

LeRoc is not an organisation. It's a bleedin' generic term. ..............



I think, and i could be wrong :innocent:

The generic term is Modern Jive

LeRoc is a name invented to avoid the using a registered trademark

Minnie M
13th-July-2005, 11:37 PM
How many times do I have to say it. LeRoc is not an organisation. It's a bleedin' generic term. :rolleyes: ........


The generic term is Modern Jive
LeRoc is a name invented to avoid the using a registered trademark
AFAIK I agree with Philsmove

http://www.leroc.org.uk/index.htm

bigdjiver
14th-July-2005, 12:05 AM
Lou uses the term, she should know. AFIK the "LeRoc French Jive Federation" is not the same thing as "Leroc". For example David Plummer in Bedford runs "Jive Vibe" under the Leroc banner, but I could not find him anywhere on the Federation site.

Lou
14th-July-2005, 07:38 AM
I think, and i could be wrong :innocent:

The generic term is Modern Jive

LeRoc is a name invented to avoid the using a registered trademark
Hi Phil,

Of course Modern Jive is a generic term. :) However, so is LeRoc - for the exact reason you give. So, I think you're actually agreeing with me. Unless I've totally misunderstood what you're trying to say?

Minnie - yup, the LeRoc Federation exists, but, (as has also been discussed on several occasions in the past - for example here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3272&highlight=federation) , here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3619&highlight=federation) and here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10027&highlight=federation#post10027), and also somewhere in the MJDA thread), it's entirely voluntary to join. As BigDJiver points out, there are many LeRoc organisations that aren't members. In the example I used higher up this thread, John's in the Federation (and in a very esteemed, highly responsible position, too), however Sherif & Steve aren't. So, again, this illustrates the use of LeRoc as a generic term.

However, if anyone wants to argue whether LeRoc organisations who join the Federation lose their status of "Independent Venue" without being assimilated into the Collective™*.... now, that would be an interesting discussion.... :whistle:

(*and a chance to use those Star Trek jokes again. :D )

Gadget
14th-July-2005, 09:19 AM
And how can a franchise be independent? It's like saying one branch of Dominos Pizzas is independent of the others. OK - so the management might differ, but the menu is identical.
As far as I am aware, all the "collective" does is give support to the franchisees (in terms of literature, branding, deals, access to other teachers & training...) and suggest ways to sucessfully run their venues.
Sure, all the branches may serve the standard "ham & mushroom" and "margarita", but the franchisee could choose to serve "Chocolate and marshmallow" if they wanted!

I know that every teacher is different, with a different style and a different emphisis on various things - to presume that every franchise/class/teacher is a true clone is even more wrong than saying that "because a teacher belongs to the LeRoc foundation, they must teach the same thing".

David Bailey
14th-July-2005, 09:47 AM
[QUOTE=Lou]Minnie - yup, the LeRoc Federation exists, but, (as has also been discussed on several occasions in the past - for example here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3272&highlight=federation) , here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3619&highlight=federation) and here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10027&highlight=federation#post10027), and also somewhere in the MJDA thread), it's entirely voluntary to join. As BigDJiver points out, there are many LeRoc organisations that aren't members.
[//QUOTE]
I think this misses the point - Leroc is an "organisation", the whole concept of a "group of independents" doesn't seem semantically sound to me. (and the ".org.uk" gives an impression of, well, an organisation...)

Of course, it's a much nicer organisation than ceroc :flower: :wink:

Lou
14th-July-2005, 10:04 AM
[QUOTE=Lou]Minnie - yup, the LeRoc Federation exists, but, (as has also been discussed on several occasions in the past - for example here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3272&highlight=federation) , here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3619&highlight=federation) and here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=10027&highlight=federation#post10027), and also somewhere in the MJDA thread), it's entirely voluntary to join. As BigDJiver points out, there are many LeRoc organisations that aren't members.
[//QUOTE]
I think this misses the point - Leroc is an "organisation", the whole concept of a "group of independents" doesn't seem semantically sound to me. (and the ".org.uk" gives an impression of, well, an organisation...)

Of course, it's a much nicer organisation than ceroc :flower: :wink:

Ermmm... exactly how is Leroc an organisation? Sorry David, you're going to have to explain it to me very simply, as I can't follow what you're saying. It's too hot!

Lounge Lizard
14th-July-2005, 10:06 AM
There is no criteria or training needed to open up a Leroc venue, any forum member coud open one today.
Try opening a venue and calling it Ceroc, Blitz or Mojive

there is a Leroc federation, but you do not have to join it to run a Leroc club or use the name Leroc

The leroc federation currently offers a simple (cheap) membership which has a few benefits, including insurance and a chance to share moves or ideas with other organisers throughout the country
A memberclub/organiser involved with the Leroc federation is not restricted by the federation in any way........
It (or they) can employ any teacher or DJ from any other organisation
It can teach whatever it wants
It can open venues wherever it wants
It can use whatever Logo it wants (only members can use the Federation Logo but only if they choose to do so)
it can change the format or formula of the class structure

Within Ceroc, Blitz, Mojive there will be certain rules or formats which will be found at each of their venues, with Leroc no such rules exist

but with Ceroc etc. there is a minimumum standard the dancer can expect, currently with Leroc there is no minimum standard with Leroc, If the teacher/organiser is cr*p there is no one (apart from the dancers) to say sorry you are not good enough to teach LeRoc

So Ceroc etc & LeRoc are not the same in many ways

Generic terms - LeRoc was in use way before the name MJ was first used (By Robert Austin I belive).
Peter

under par
14th-July-2005, 10:12 AM
So having digested all of the above.

You are not independant if you are ceroc tm

you can be independant if you are leroc but might not be.

You are independant if you are not ceroc tm or leroc unless you are not. :whistle:

Clear as mud :tears: :tears:

Lou
14th-July-2005, 10:18 AM
So having digested all of the above.:
hehe! Not quite all - Ms Sparkler will be cross that you still spell independent wrong! :na:

under par
14th-July-2005, 10:21 AM
hehe! Not quite all - Ms Sparkler will be cross that you still spell independANT wrong! :na:

I think I was wrongfooted by the flying " ANT"s thread. :flower:

Lou
14th-July-2005, 10:25 AM
I think I was wrongfooted by the flying " ANT"s thread. :flower:
Please let's not bring footwork into this discussion too! :whistle: :D

under par
14th-July-2005, 10:30 AM
Please let's not bring footwork into this discussion too! :whistle: :D

I would hate to step forward and trip you up with footwork discussions so I'll hotfoot it to another tread. :whistle:

Lounge Lizard
14th-July-2005, 10:41 AM
So having digested all of the above.

You are not independant if you are ceroc tm

you can be independant if you are leroc but might not be.

You are independant if you are not ceroc tm or leroc unless you are not. :whistle:

Clear as mud :tears: :tears:nope
if you are Leroc you ARE independant, joining the federation does not remove your independance
joining Ceroc, Blitz, Mojive would
P

David Bailey
14th-July-2005, 11:24 AM
nope
if you are Leroc you ARE independant, joining the federation does not remove your independance
joining Ceroc, Blitz, Mojive would
P
OK, but joining any organisation must surely, well, "dilute" your, ahem, independence to some degree?

So I stick to my guns: the only "fully" independent venues are the one-man band ones, everything else is less independent, to some larger or smaller degree.

Lou
14th-July-2005, 11:46 AM
So I stick to my guns: the only "fully" independent venues are the one-man band ones, everything else is less independent, to some larger or smaller degree.
OK - so are you saying that LeRoc2000 is independent, Clifton LeRoc isn't? Even though they are similarly sized organisations, both basically "one-man bands", both offering two classes a week, and a monthly freestyle in the Bristol area, both running well-respected competitions? The only difference being that John & Jackie are Federation, and Sherif & Jenni are not.

Do you still maintain that they're not the same, despite the fact that LL has already stated that the Federation do not restrict members in any way, and just provide certain benefits for their members?

Or are you saying that neither LeRoc2000 nor Clifton LeRoc are independent because they have the word "LeRoc" in their name? :wink:

Andy McGregor
14th-July-2005, 11:52 AM
OK, but joining any organisation must surely, well, "dilute" your, ahem, independence to some degree?

So I stick to my guns: the only "fully" independent venues are the one-man band ones, everything else is less independent, to some larger or smaller degree.I think there's truth in either stance. If you're a member of the LeRoc fed and start doing topless lessons or dangerous lessons you might be asked to leave. But mostly I get the impression that the LeRoc fed are more along the lines of a trade federation. And, in my experience, there is a lot of variation between LeRoc classes. On the other hand, like all franchises, Ceroc have a manual and expect their members to stick to it. I wouldn't even be surprised if they had mystery inspections to see if their classes follow all the guidelines.

The other thing is that you can leave the LeRoc fed any time you like. I'm sure it's much harder to stop being a Ceroc franchise holder due to contractual obligations.

As an independent organser who's neither a member of Ceroc or the LeRoc Fed I can say that you still can't do what you want. Your customers tell you what they want and you try to give it to them - even if it's by the Mavericks or Eric Prydz...

And as we've all got pretty much the same customers telling us what they want we all offer a very similar product :flower:

David Bailey
14th-July-2005, 12:31 PM
OK - so are you saying that LeRoc2000 is independent, Clifton LeRoc isn't?
...
Or are you saying that neither LeRoc2000 nor Clifton LeRoc are independent because they have the word "LeRoc" in their name? :wink:
Err, dunno what I'm saying, I'm probably now in the "too hot" camp :phew icon:

But I guess what I'm saying is that there are degrees of independence, with, say, Cashbah as one end and my front room at the other...

Swelter swelter...

Lou
14th-July-2005, 12:52 PM
But I guess what I'm saying is that there are degrees of independence, with, say, Cashbah as one end and my front room at the other...

Swelter swelter...
Does your front room contain a pitcher of frozen (melon flavoured) margarita? If so, I'll be around, pronto! :D

bigdjiver
14th-July-2005, 01:29 PM
AFIK Leroc is the name of the original dance given to it by Michael Ange Lau.
MJ Hall of fame (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4630&highlight=ange+lau)

It is a name used by organisations, and by independent individuals.

Think vacuum cleaner salesman, rather than "Hoover" salesman, or "Dyson", or ...

Minnie M
14th-July-2005, 02:03 PM
.......Generic terms - LeRoc was in use way before the name MJ was first used (By Robert Austin I belive)
The story as I know it:-
In the old days, there were three main organisations - Ceroc / LeJive and LeRoc - we all know Ceroc is TradeMarked and they are extremely hot about it, I believe LeJive were too, however, the LeRoc founders (Michael Ange Lau & Christine Keeble) didn't follow it through (putting a trade mark on their name) - hence newly formed dance organisations (the Independants) hooked onto the name (for recognition) - so loosly speaking Lou is correct, however, the true generic name is Modern Jive or when I first learnt it (before Ceroc :whistle: ) it was French Jive, in fact some people still know it as French Jive :really:

BTW the French Jive I learnt as a kid, is so similar to the dance we know today (all this has been repeated on lots of old threads - where is Martin Harper when you need him)

AND what about the ex-Ceroc organisations :whistle: there are a few of those about

David Bailey
14th-July-2005, 05:42 PM
Does your front room contain a pitcher of frozen (melon flavoured) margarita? If so, I'll be around, pronto! :D
Well, it used to contain 1 litre of home-made strawberry-and-banana smoothie with crushed ice cubes.

But that was 2 hours ago. :innocent:

Will
15th-July-2005, 01:03 AM
LeRoc is a dance. and a business (or businesses)


Ceroc™ is a business. and a dance.

Conversly I'd argue that Modern Jive is a description of the dance form. Ceroc and Leroc are both more accurate names for the dance as those terms were around long before "Modern Jive". I've said this before - It's quite possible that Salsa would have eventually ended up being called something like "Hispanic Jive" or "Latin Jive" if the inventors of it had Trademarked the name "Salsa".

All that said, at the end of the day, if people want to refer to the dance form as "Modern Jive" then that's fine. I just think it's wrong if people get all shirty when you refer to the dance form as Ceroc or Leroc.

bigdjiver
15th-July-2005, 07:21 AM
... Conversly I'd argue that Modern Jive is a description of the dance form. Ceroc and Leroc are both more accurate names for the dance as those terms were around long before "Modern Jive". I've said this before - It's quite possible that Salsa would have eventually ended up being called something like "Hispanic Jive" or "Latin Jive" if the inventors of it had Trademarked the name "Salsa".

All that said, at the end of the day, if people want to refer to the dance form as "Modern Jive" then that's fine. I just think it's wrong if people get all shirty when you refer to the dance form as Ceroc or Leroc.Ceroc trademarks (http://webdb4.patent.gov.uk/tm/text?searchtext=ceroc&typeofsearch=S&classselected=99&crosssearch=Y&statusselected=A)

"Booking agency services for performing artists; theatre production services;
instruction services, relating to dance the performing arts and physcial
exercise; ..." Read and believe. If some Ceroc employees take jobs outside Ceroc the the franchisee can demand a comission.

"Ceroc" is a trademark, which is commonly, and wrongly, applied to one section of the services supplied under that mark, a particular form of dance. It is wrongly applied to similar dance forms. Some in the buiding industry probably referes to "Ceroc" as something completely different. (Trademarks can be allowed for different activities where there is very little chance for confusion.)

Leroc was the name originally given to a dance form originated by a group of people, and is commonly used to refer to that dance form as it has been developed by organisations using that name, and is sometimes used for derivitive and similar dance forms.

"Modern Jive" is the name commonly applied to dance forms derived from, or similar to, Leroc, or the similar dance forms that has been taught under the "Ceroc" or other trademarks.

Lou
15th-July-2005, 07:37 AM
(Leroc)... and a business (or businesses)
Ahhh... it depends on what you mean. Surely the business would be (for example) Elmgrove LeRoc, or Kingswood LeRoc? Neither of these organisations are related and are run by completely different people. However, both teach the dance that is called LeRoc. Unless you mean that they're in the business of teaching LeRoc?


(Ceroc)... and a dance.
Done at those Ceroc™ venues :wink:


All that said, at the end of the day, if people want to refer to the dance form as "Modern Jive" then that's fine. I just think it's wrong if people get all shirty when you refer to the dance form as Ceroc or Leroc.I danced ceroc last night. ;)

Minnie M
15th-July-2005, 07:46 AM
I still call clear sticky tape Selloptape - regardless of the make and still say, "....do the Hoovering" :D :whistle:

David Bailey
15th-July-2005, 08:46 AM
Ahhh... it depends on what you mean. Surely the business would be (for example) Elmgrove LeRoc, or Kingswood LeRoc? Neither of these organisations are related and are run by completely different people. However, both teach the dance that is called LeRoc.
To me, as a simple user / consumer of dance, the best description of what I dance is Modern Jive. I know it's a cumbersome name, but if we never promote the name, it'll never register in people's minds the way that salsa has.

Calling it "Ceroc dancing" or "Leroc dancing" or for that matter "David dancing" is not going to raise the profile of the dance, and I for one am sick and tired of saying "well, you know salsa? OK, it's a bit like that" after spending two minutes trying to describe it to someone. If "Modern Jive" had more support, it'd have more profile. Hell, I could even make a case for Ceroc supporting the name Modern Jive, simply because of that reason.

And the whole "XXXroc is a dance / business / organisation / style of shoe" discussion... argh... Lory, can I have that "banging head on PC" icon please?

I've heard nothing that's convinced me that Leroc is not an organisation. OK, it has different and much looser "rules", but a Ceroc (business) defender, were they brave enough to pop their heads above the parapet, would argue that Ceroc franchisees also exercise a lot of freedom and flexibility.

So from where I spin, the difference is one of degree. And the only truly independent dance venue is still my front room. :grin:

Lounge Lizard
15th-July-2005, 09:18 AM
I've heard nothing that's convinced me that Leroc is not an organisation. OK, it has different and much looser "rules", but a Ceroc (business) defender, were they brave enough to pop their heads above the parapet, would argue that Ceroc franchisees also exercise a lot of freedom and flexibility.
we have no rules in leroc, I could teach ballroom at my Leroc venue if I wanted to and not bother with MJ classes - the only thing stopping me is the punters.
To use the same name is not an organisation
there are 1000's of companies called xxxxxxx builders, some belong to groups like federation of master builders, none are linked the only thing in common is they build. Using your argument, because they use the term 'builder' they must be part of an organisation

When I started Hastings Leroc I joined the federation, I now have other Leroc classes around me, we are not linked, but they use the tem Leroc, there are venues where the teacher has no training whatsoever, others with no insurance.

So from what you are saying
YOU could hire a village or church Hall next week, put an advert in a local paper offering LEROC classes, even if you only know 4 moves and have never taught in your life.
By doing this you would you become part of the 'Leroc' organasation - methinksnot
If you applied the same senario but called it MODERN JIVE (instead of Leroc) would not become part of an organisation.
Peter

Lou
15th-July-2005, 09:59 AM
And the whole "XXXroc is a dance / business / organisation / style of shoe" discussion... argh... Lory, can I have that "banging head on PC" icon please? :whistle: :rofl:
According to BigDJiver's Trademark link, CASE DETAILS FOR TRADE MARK 1422438 state that Ceroc is:

Chemical products for use in industry; chemical products for use in the building and construction industry; accelerators; air void formers being additives for mortar and for concrete, release compounds for concrete shuttering; additives for mortar, cement, concrete and for flooring plaster, all for acceleration of hardening, for waterproofing and for heightening of stability; all included in Class 1.
So I hope that now finishes the debate about whether ceroc is a dance, for once and for all!


I've heard nothing that's convinced me that Leroc is not an organisation. OK, it has different and much looser "rules",I don't know why we're not managing to communicate the differences clearly. I'll have another go, but if this doesn't work, maybe the best thing would be for you to explain exactly why you think LeRoc is still an organisation.

You see, there is no umbrella LeRoc organisation. Each LeRoc organisation is autonomous.


but a Ceroc (business) defender, were they brave enough to pop their heads above the parapet, would argue that Ceroc franchisees also exercise a lot of freedom and flexibility.
However, despite their freedom & flexibility, Ceroc HQ still has considerable control over the franchisee. (Otherwise the whole franchise & brand system, of which Ceroc is rightly proud, would totally fail.)

I wonder if your confusion comes from the existence of the LeRoc Federation. Which, as people have tried to explain, is a voluntary organisation that LeRoc organisers can optionally join in order to recieve certain benefits such as insurance, obtain qualifications, and discuss best practices with other members.

And I don't know about the membership figures UK-wide, but in Bristol about half the clubs are Federation members, half are not, if that helps explain about the optionality part.

LL has already said that he's a member. When I took over GrahamW's class & started Viva LeRoc, I didn't have membership. (However, we did have insurance, etc. through the hall, and I did take Andy McG & Nigel's teacher training course). If I were still teaching now, I'd probably do the Fed exams, because I can see that the qualification & membership of the association would be useful. But I wouldn't need to. Does this help explain? I would still structure the classes how I wanted, teach a syllabus that I felt suitable, and be at liberty to teach whatever footwork I wanted. :whistle:

Maybe a better way to illustrate the difference is to say that if Ceroc HQ said jump, all franchisees would have to. If the Federation said jump - half the LeRoc clubs wouldn't know (not being members), and those that are, would probably go back & have a meeting to find out why, and then decide for themselves if it was a good idea. ;)

As LL says - there are no rules!

So - is it any clearer?

David Bailey
15th-July-2005, 11:02 AM
So I hope that now finishes the debate about whether ceroc is a dance, for once and for all!
Works for me...


explain exactly why you think LeRoc is still an organisation.
Because a group of you get together to be, you know, organised? Because you use the same name?

And because, to quote the front page of www.leroc.org.uk:
"The LeRoc French Jive Federation is an organisation of teachers of this ever popular modern jive dance."

I don't know if you noticed the use of the O-word? :whistle: (I subtly emphasized it, in case you missed it :innocent: )

I'm very happy to concede that it's a very very loose O-word, but I'm going to still assume it has "organisational characteristics"...

Lou
15th-July-2005, 11:20 AM
And because, to quote the front page of www.leroc.org.uk:
"The LeRoc French Jive Federation is an organisation of teachers of this ever popular modern jive dance."

I don't know if you noticed the use of the O-word? :whistle: (I subtly emphasized it, in case you missed it :innocent: )

I'm very happy to concede that it's a very very loose O-word, but I'm going to still assume it has "organisational characteristics"...
But, dearheart, The Federation may well call itself an organisation - but LeRoc is not the Federation! :)

You and I may well be members of the same organisation somewhere (do you have a funny handshake?). In fact, I suspect we are. Do you have a Ceroc™ membership card? :wink: This doesn't mean that either of us are less independent for that fact! (And, of course, aren't we both members of the anti-group group ;) )

BTW... love the phrase "organisational characteristics"! :D

clevedonboy
15th-July-2005, 12:08 PM
If the Federation said jump - half the LeRoc clubs wouldn't know .....

Which was the correct foot to jump from and where the lady should place her left hand :whistle:

bigdjiver
15th-July-2005, 12:27 PM
... because, to quote the front page of www.leroc.org.uk:
The LeRoc French Jive Federation is an organisation of teachers of this ever popular modern jive dance."

To the left is the logo, "The LeRoc French Jive Federation", which is an organisation, like the "Builders Federation" would be an organisation. Being a builder or allegedly doing building does not not make you in the least bit organised. :tears: I can give you references ... :tears:

David Bailey
15th-July-2005, 12:48 PM
To the left is the logo, "The LeRoc French Jive Federation", which is an organisation, like the "Builders Federation" would be an organisation. Being a builder or allegedly doing building does not not make you in the least bit organised. :tears: I can give you references ... :tears:
Sure - I never, ever, ever, ever, said that organisation = organised / controlled / franchised, whatever.

I just have this an*l habit, wherever I see a grouping calling itself an organisation, of assuming that it's an organisation.

But what I mean by organisation is a "grouping", rather than any particular "controlling". Organisations don't have to be hierarchical, although most are.

And, in that context, I don't therefore believe that LeRoc-affiliated members can be said to be "independent", simply by virtue of the fact that they belong to an organisation.

I'll concede that the difference is semantic rather than practical however, as it's Friday lunchtime and I'm losing the will to argue :eek:

Lounge Lizard
15th-July-2005, 03:28 PM
And, in that context, I don't therefore believe that LeRoc-affiliated members can be said to be "independent", simply by virtue of the fact that they belong to an organisation. :
is it Me?
We have been saying from the start that lots of the clubs using the name Leroc do not have have any links whatsoever with thr federation
so how does your argument stand with these clubs - are they independant?

Would they be independant if they operated in the exact same way but replaced Leroc with Letsroc
peter
ps Big J fink used sama analogy earlier

bigdjiver
15th-July-2005, 05:27 PM
... however, as it's Friday lunchtime and I'm losing the will to argue :eek:
I had lost the will to argue before my last post :sad: , but habit is a terrible thing ...