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johnthehappyguy
8th-July-2005, 09:36 AM
I travelled to attend the class in Perth last night, and it was excellent. :nice:

The choice of sweets on offer was an indication of the consistent high quality to come. :yum:

Beginners class time :-Innovation 1

James taught beginners and Melanie offered a class in the Review room.


Most of the intermediate dancers went to Melanies class. I am afraid I cant remember the official title of the class :confused: , however a variety of techniques are taught over the weeks.

Last night the concentration was on latin style movement and footwork. Melaie also pointed out how to adapt the movement to other styles, e.g. "do this and it makes it more boppy".

The quality of the teaching was excellent. I have been taught similar things at Dancebase, the Scottish Centre for Dance in Edinburgh, by a teacher who is regarded to be the best in Edinburgh. Melanie's teaching surpassed it.



Intermediate time:-

James taught , and Melanie Demo'd. Their teaching was an excellent balance between explaining how the moves should be executed, while maintaining the interest of the whole class.

The ratio of women to men was almost ideal too.

New innovation number two:-

At the end of the intermediate class James announced that at 10:00 he and Melanie would be available in the review room for an intermediate review.

I went along and discovered that the idea was to help you with the moves, and get you back quickly to dance the rest of the night away.

I was even bigger than my ego, and welcomed the additional one to one advice at this review time, which was offered in a very constructive way.


The innovations on offer were excellent, so why not go along to Perth so you can try it yourself ?


johnthehappyguy :nice:

ducasi
8th-July-2005, 09:57 AM
I travelled to attend the class in Perth last night, and it was excellent. :nice:

The choice of sweets on offer was an indication of the consistent high quality to come. :yum: :yeah:
I really liked my visit to Perth back in May (http://ducasi.org/blog/2005/05/20/perth/) for all the reasons you mentioned.

James and Melanie are really great teachers. :worthy:

It's just a shame Perth is so far away. :tears:

bigdjiver
8th-July-2005, 01:32 PM
I travelled to attend the class in Perth last night, and it was excellent. :nice: ...
Beginners class time :-Innovation 1

James taught beginners and Melanie offered a class in the Review room.


Most of the intermediate dancers went to Melanies class. I am afraid I cant remember the official title of the class :confused: , however a variety of techniques are taught over the weeks.

Last night the concentration was on latin style movement and footwork. Melaie also pointed out how to adapt the movement to other styles, e.g. "do this and it makes it more boppy".

The quality of the teaching was excellent. I have been taught similar things at Dancebase, the Scottish Centre for Dance in Edinburgh, by a teacher who is regarded to be the best in Edinburgh. Melanie's teaching surpassed it....

The innovations on offer were excellent, so why not go along to Perth so you can try it yourself ?


johnthehappyguy :nice:For the improving dancer I am sure that this innovation was welcome, however I do hope it does not become common practise without good statistics to back it up.

I believe that "everybody in the beginners class" is one of the great strengths of the Ceroc system.

I hope I am not misusing Martins quote:


...As someone who has been dancing MJ for over 10 years, having ran a dance company and taught extensively, this has been a good experiment.

A totally new dancer, experiencing 3 different dance classes and the people who also attend.

For my son. He does not want to go back to the "specialised beginners evening" - this is no reflection on the wonderful teacher or staff. It is simply that, he did not like the "in line" instruction from the "less than advanced" folowers. The lack of advanced girls who could help him out after the class also made the freestyle time a bit dead...

I am all for trying different formats, but I want to see the information Ceroc collects used properly in deciding policy. Verbal feedback and poorly collected and interpreted statistics can both lead to wrong conclusions. I would guess that a majority would prefer the consolidation format, but I am also sure that most people are not first or second timers.

The current format means that everybody feels part of the Ceroc community from the start, not part of a separate group.

Chicklet
8th-July-2005, 03:02 PM
The current format means that everybody feels part of the Ceroc community from the start, not part of a separate group.

Understand where you're coming from but I for one, from personal experience of the night at Perth, am quite sure that there can be few places where everybody could feel more part of it all than there!!

It does help when you know the form of the night and the venue but there is no doubt in my mind that this is a great thing to try for that venue! :clap:

Dare I suggest that at least part of the reason that this is good for Perth is that the beginners class might have been sooo succesful and therefore busy that having some in the other room improves the beginners class by giving them good space per couple?

James and Melanie both come across as fully committed teachers, really keen to pass on as much of their knowledge, skill as they can, with care and enthusiasm for all standards of dancers and I applaud them and Franck for coming up with something that allows them BOTH to be involved in doing this, and look forward to getting my backside up there again shortly....when I can just get off the bl**dy codiene...

C :grin:

filthycute
8th-July-2005, 03:37 PM
As far as i'm aware, the structure we have at our venue is not Ceroc structure, merely a Perth one. The idea of the technique class alongside the beginners was Franck's, so i can't comment really on where it all came from. He originally ran it with Sheena and they worked with intermediate couples. But with Franck being the busy bee he is, no longer had time to commit to it and so i took it over. I however changed the format and turned it into a solo class. This way it gives the dancers a chance to work on styles to suit the music, footwork, body movement.....and it's much easier to practice alone.



I believe that "everybody in the beginners class" is one of the great strengths of the Ceroc system.



Because my class is solo stuff it tends not to take too many men away from the beginners. Men don't seem to want to dance on their own....but the women are a diffrent kettle of fish. All the more moves to add to their repetoir when they are dancing round their handbags :na: :whistle:



I am all for trying different formats, but I want to see the information Ceroc collects used properly in deciding policy.

Like i said i'm not sure where the format originally stemmed from, but i can be sure that if it wasn't working, it wouldn't be happening....simple as that. Fortunately it works for our crowd so i don't see any problem continuing with our structure.

Now i'm all for getting beginners up to scratch, i remember not so long ago when i trained James.....2 words....task & master.....thats all i have to say :whistle: ;) and he certainly wasn't anywhere near an intermediate class for the first 4 months.
There are a vast amount of intermediate dancers who take part in the beginners class and try to dance with them throughout the evening......and of course we have the taxi's...bless them :innocent:
What i do get concerned about though is why intermediate dancers are treated like babysitters. Do we only train them up to look after beginners? When do the intermediate's get to work on their dancing skills? Are they only allowed to progress if they go to specialized workshops or in the privacy of their own home. I know Ceroc wouldn't use a structure that jepordises the learning rate of our beginners......but i'm sure it also wouldn't be too happy if it were losing it's more experienced dancers to the Salsa class along the road, because it wasn't catering for their needs.

Everyone needs looking after sometimes......not just beginners.

As long as people keeping enjoying our little 'added extras', i guess we'll just keep on rockin' :waycool:

filthycute x x

Jive Brummie
8th-July-2005, 06:40 PM
:yeah: Everything Melanie said and just a wee bit more.....


The structure we have in place in Perth, so far, seems to work really well. The reason we put on the intermediate revue was basically because we felt concerned that the loyal intermediate dancer was fed move after move week after week and had no source of information of assistance to help them out with the odd trickier move...as in taxi's for beginners. Initially the idea was to put on a 30 minute revue from 10 'till half past. However, after much discussion with different people, it was advised to keep it as short as possible so as not to keep the more experienced off the floor...so this is what we do. In short we're an 'intense' taxi class for intermediates. As the revue takes place in a more intimate atmosphere of 'the back room' more people seem happier about receiving one to one tuition rather than the embarrassment sometimes felt if 'instructed' on the public floor. So far it's been popular and to reemphasise what Melanie wrote, this as far as we're aware, is only a Perth thing not a Ceroc thing...

It works for us...come up and see for yourself if you like...we could do with a few more chaps.

J.

p.s. thanks for the nice comments John and Ducasi...and Chicklet :hug:

Little Monkey
8th-July-2005, 08:51 PM
Well, I might just have to come and see for myself next week, if anyone can be bothered to give a Little Monkey a lift from Dundee? :)

I've only heard good things about your classes, James and Melanie, and am soooooo dissappointed I normally work on Thursdays, and can't make it to Perth more than a couple of times a year! :(

LM :hug:

johnthehappyguy
9th-July-2005, 03:04 PM
..
Last night the concentration was on latin style movement and footwork. Melaie also pointed out how to adapt the movement to other styles, e.g. "do this and it makes it more boppy".

The quality of the teaching was excellent. I have been taught similar things at Dancebase, the Scottish Centre for Dance in Edinburgh, by a teacher who is regarded to be the best in Edinburgh. Melanie's teaching surpassed it.

:

To make things a bit clearer.

It was a Latin Salsa improvers course that I attended over 12 weeks, with the best Salsa teacher in Edinburgh, CaroleAnne Weatherup(?) of Salsa Angels.

johnthehappyguy :nice:

bigdjiver
11th-July-2005, 12:28 AM
I have just re-read this thread, and Ducasi's blog. It seems to me that this "great improvement" is due to having two enthusiastic teachers instead of one average one, and them doing extra work as well. I would still like to see the figures for the comparative beginner retention rate. It would be great if the figures backed the extra effort being put in.

MartinHarper
11th-July-2005, 01:10 AM
I would still like to see the figures for the comparative beginner retention rate.

Isn't the idea more about the intermediate retention rate?


Because my class is solo stuff it tends not to take too many men away from the beginners. Men don't seem to want to dance on their own...

(time for wild overgeneralisations based on very limited experience...)
Men seem happy enough to do solo stuff, but are less happy when asked to do stuff that works better with a female body - IE: hips, breasts, etc. So you won't get many guys in belly/pole/African dancing, but you'll get more even numbers in tap/jazz/charleston. The attitude (and sex) of the teacher can also make a difference.

Cruella
11th-July-2005, 09:13 AM
Isn't the idea more about the intermediate retention rate?



.
IMO that is Cerocs downfall. The focus always seems to be on the beginners and getting new dancers in. Basically it's all down to revenue!! Get them hooked at beginner level, and they'll keep coming. But unfortunately once a dancer gets to a certain level there isn't anything for them at a normal weekday venue. You find that most experienced dancers tend to do just freestyles or maybe turn up after 9.30 for the last hour or so on a weeknight. So the format that Melanie and James are offering gives something to encourage the experienced dancer to come early to a weekday venue. Surely that is a positive thing? As melanie says why are experienced dancers expected to be used as babysitters for the beginners. They pay their money to come dancing. Maybe ceroc should think of a way of encouraging experienced dancers to help out in the beginners lesson by letting them in free or at a reduced rate if they are there early. (not instead of taxi dancers though). If anyone could think of an easy way to implement this, please post your ideas.
I've never posted so much before, or so seriously, i think i need to lay down for a bit. :sick:

bigdjiver
11th-July-2005, 10:02 AM
Isn't the idea more about the intermediate retention rate? ...No.

Non nerds are advised to move on to the next post.

Beginners have the zeal of the newly converted, and very quickly bring their closest friends along. The number of beginners retained is of the form X to the power of Y, where Y is an increasing function of the number of classes attended. (Simply, the longer you have been coming, the more likely you are to return.) For this reason the forms beginners fill in should have boxes for previous MJ, partner dance, and dance class experience.

The number of new recruits a necomer brings in is of the form Y to the power of Z, where Z is a declining function of the number of classes attended. (Simply, the longer you have been coming the less likely you are to have anybody new to tell the good news to.)

Functions of the form X ^ Y ^ Z are very sensitive to the values of Y and Z. It is very difficult to get statistics reliable enough to draw conclusions from in a Ceroc type situation. It is even more difficult to get reliable estimate without statistics. If the average beginner comes 2.8 times instead of 3.2, and brings along 2.6 new members instead of 2.9 it is probably not going to be noticed for a long time, and when it is the cause of the decline is unlikely to be recognised.

There are other problems with assessing the impact of innovations. The simple fact of introducing changes is likely to raise interest, and may produce an initial positive response even though the long term effect is adverse, Change may work the other way. Attendances have reportedly declined since Ceroc Central started to go non-smoking. This may be non-related, or may be a short term effect, or may actually improve the beginner retention in the long run. Once again, it would be nice to be able to dissect the statisitics. In this case it should be possible to draw real conclusions, because the introduction was staggered.

Zebra Woman
11th-July-2005, 11:21 AM
No.

Non nerds are advised to move on to the next post.

Beginners have the zeal of the newly converted, and very quickly bring their closest friends along. The number of beginners retained is of the form X to the power of Y, where Y is an increasing function of the number of classes attended. (Simply, the longer you have been coming, the more likely you are to return.) For this reason the forms beginners fill in should have boxes for previous MJ, partner dance, and dance class experience.

The number of new recruits a necomer brings in is of the form Y to the power of Z, where Z is a declining function of the number of classes attended. (Simply, the longer you have been coming the less likely you are to have anybody new to tell the good news to.)

Functions of the form X ^ Y ^ Z are very sensitive to the values of Y and Z. It is very difficult to get statistics reliable enough to draw conclusions from in a Ceroc type situation. It is even more difficult to get reliable estimate without statistics. If the average beginner comes 2.8 times instead of 3.2, and brings along 2.6 new members instead of 2.9 it is probably not going to be noticed for a long time, and when it is the cause of the decline is unlikely to be recognised.

There are other problems with assessing the impact of innovations. The simple fact of introducing changes is likely to raise interest, and may produce an initial positive response even though the long term effect is adverse, Change may work the other way. Attendances have reportedly declined since Ceroc Central started to go non-smoking. This may be non-related, or may be a short term effect, or may actually improve the beginner retention in the long run. Once again, it would be nice to be able to dissect the statisitics. In this case it should be possible to draw real conclusions, because the introduction was staggered.

:rolleyes:
Mmmmm yes well BigD....

I can see how the ceroc beginner works in real life, and agree with what you say. No idea about the formulae to represent their behaviours, I'll have to take your word for that.

What is the model for the intermediate dancer who has been attending for 6m months - 5 years and then stops?

They stop because they:

Don't feel like they are learning anything anymore.
Don't feel included.
Don't like the music.
I'll leave the smoke argument OK :innocent:

They may have found anther venue that they prefer, or another dance form.

Of course there are many other reasons for stopping dancing family/work/injury/ex-partner problems/new more interesting hobby.

Do you have any information at all on why people give up Ceroc? Is there any plan to try and turn this around?

Obviously this question is more important to me than retaining beginners. :whistle: I expect there is some numbers pyramid which shows how beginners outnumber intermediates 20 to 1 so they will have a greater effect on profits etc.etc. But without some action the beginners are only going to become disillusioned intermediates and then leave unless their needs are recognised and catered for. Seems sensible to me to find out why people leave and if there is a theme to the answers then do something about it. No one I know has ever been asked why they have stopped.


I am really pleased to hear Melanie and James are giving something extra to the intermediates. If I had £7 and was choosing where to dance in their area, providing the music was good (which I expect it would be) I would choose their gaff.

Most of the intermediate women I know are crying out for some styling tips. Yes they are on offer at weekenders but 300 people in a class a couple of times a year, improvement is bound to be slow. Workshops are great but not everyone has the time or money to do them.

Teaching styling during the class time is perfect IMO as it is a well known fact that a lot of experienced dancers treat the class as a slack time either arriving late to avoid it or chatting to friends while it goes on. I don't think it will be anymore divisive on the group than seeing people come in late and not join in the class or talk amongst themselves while the class goes on. Plus the beginners themselves will benefit in time when they are ready to join in.

Good Idea Frank :worthy: and Good Luck James and Melanie that's what I say. :clap:

MartinHarper
11th-July-2005, 11:34 AM
Sorry - I was unclear. I meant that the given reason for this particular change is to improve intermediate retention, so that's probably how its success should be measured. (provided, of course, that it doesn't make the beginner retention rate worse)

John S
11th-July-2005, 02:02 PM
Because I'm a taxi dancer at Perth I stay in with the "beginners" class and never really get to go to Melanie's "intermediate" session, which I'm sorry about, as I think it's a very worthwhile experiment.

There is a slight downside in that after their class the beginners then go into the "taxi" revision class, so they don't really get on the dancefloor with intermediates until the final freestyle session - as they haven't met each other in a class situation beforehand it maybe makes it more difficult to then ask for a dance from someone in the "other" group. But Perth is a reasonably compact venue and the seating/dancing arrangements overcome most of that problem - it might be more of an issue in larger/other venues.

However, Melanie & others are absolutely right that intermediate dancers who come for the whole evening should be given a class appropriate to their own needs - the Perth arrangement achieves this, and I know there has been disappointment on the rare occasions it has had to be cancelled. The standard Ceroc arrangement has the alternative merits of (a) everyone getting to know each other in the "beginners" class, and (b) true beginners getting some informal advice in the class from more experienced dancers - but that can sometimes be problematic in itself!

James' "intermediate taxi" class is a positive step as well - it just shows what can be achieved with a good venue (ie a separate taxi/revision room) and two dedicated teachers. :worthy:

JoC
11th-July-2005, 02:14 PM
Just want to throw in the viewpoint of one regular at these classes.

First off I love the format.

The classes with Franck and Sheena (when the idea was first trialed) for me answered so many technical questions that I could have spent months bugging teachers with, for example about spinning, tension and compression, frame to name but a few. I got a huge amount of value from these classes and am still regularly referring back in my mind to what was taught.

In Melanie's classes we're learning amongst other things how to adapt our dancing to different styles of music, how to adjust posture or style arms and legs to fit with the music. Again, judging by how packed the room always is I'd say this class is going down a storm. Because we're covering a variety of styles I believe there's something for everyone.

This option really gives the intermediates something extra to look forward to of an evening and hopefully helps 'bring us on' that bit better. Also it certainly gets me along earlier more often. (I should probably still be tidying up my beginner moves mind you... :blush: )

I guess time will tell whether this works as a long term format, but for now (and it has been going for a while now) it looks to be working extremely well!

David Franklin
11th-July-2005, 05:46 PM
Isn't the idea more about the intermediate retention rate? ...
No.Yes. :wink: Or, it depends...

The truth, I would say, is that Ceroc (and MJ classes in general) have a very good intermediate retention rate, and a relatively poor beginner retention rate. The way it works is that most beginners go to 2 or 3 classes, never get the hang of things, and quit. But those few that stay for 7 or 8 classes will usually stay for months, probably even years.

Actually, you could change either of these to improve numbers. Get the average length an intermediate stays to go up from 3 years to 6 years, and you'd (more-or-less) double numbers. Get twice as many beginners to get 'addicted' and you'd also double numbers. (N.B. in both cases the doubling would take years).

But pragmatically, it's a lot easier to try to get more beginners to stay - you're starting from such a low base, after all! And conversely, it's hard to get intermediates to stay longer - yes, some feel they need new classes, but many simply move on. They get a new job, or a new relationship, get older, or have children. Not much you can do about any of those conditions.

As far as modelling goes - the other thing about concentrating on beginners is that it is much easier to monitor how you're doing. If you get a beginner through, say, 8 Ceroc classes, you've got a very good chance of getting them coming for years. It's very easy to see whether your beginners are coming back for those 8 classes or not - you don't have to wait for years and years. And it's also not disasterous if you get it totally wrong for a short period; losing all the beginners who come through the doors for 4 weeks won't kill your venue. Losing all the intermediates most certainly will.

Jive Brummie
11th-July-2005, 06:59 PM
I think some emphasis needs to be placed on the idea of 'change'. It's been said and seen at many a class that beginners and sometimes intermediates tend to fade away. Sometimes through boredom, sometimes inability sometimes because they might not like somebody at the venue...possibly even the teacher :sick: :really: :tears: . So the way Melanie and I have tried to combat this is by adding something different to the mix. We try and approach our Perth venue with an open mind...what would we like to walk into, who would we like to see on the front desk...what sweets do we like etc...Not that we're anything special and nor should the venue reflect a cloned image of melanie and james....However, at one time we were the typical 'member/learner/beginner/intermediate' and so can easily remember what we would have liked to have seen at our venue. Now we've in essence got our own, we can put all these idea's into practise...

And don't worry Perth Posse....there's still a few more ideas left :whistle:

Oh and another thing....we talk and listen to our patrons. It's amazing what you can pick up from just being a host/hostess.

J x x

David Bailey
11th-July-2005, 07:22 PM
But pragmatically, it's a lot easier to try to get more beginners to stay - you're starting from such a low base, after all! And conversely, it's hard to get intermediates to stay longer - yes, some feel they need new classes, but many simply move on. They get a new job, or a new relationship, get older, or have children. Not much you can do about any of those conditions.
:yeah: Excellent points.

Ceroc is a business (not a dance :devil: ), and a beginner is more valuable in terms of revenue than an intermediate (assuming you can get that beginner over the initial learning curve), because of the evangelising effect, and because of the marketing opportunities - new name on database, merchandising, etc.

Hence Ceroc concentrates most of the effort on beginners. I don't like it, but that's because I'm not a beginner... :sad:

bigdjiver
11th-July-2005, 07:32 PM
I think some emphasis needs to be placed on the idea of 'change'. It's been said and seen at many a class that beginners and sometimes intermediates tend to fade away. Sometimes through boredom ...

... And don't worry Perth Posse....there's still a few more ideas left :whistle:

Oh and another thing....we talk and listen to our patrons. It's amazing what you can pick up from just being a host/hostess.

J x x :yeah: :worthy:
There is a watershed social engineering experiment which led to the so-called "Hawthorne effect". Basically the researchers tried varying the work conditions and monitoring the results. Every change they made improved the results, including the change back to the original working practices. The conclusion was that the combination of variety in the workplace and people taking and interest in them inspired the workers. The effects on morale were more important than the actual changes made. Having a variety of classes and an interested management may be a substantial part of the "Perth effect".

TA Guy
21st-September-2005, 02:13 PM
:yeah: :worthy:
There is a watershed social engineering experiment which led to the so-called "Hawthorne effect". Basically the researchers tried varying the work conditions and monitoring the results. Every change they made improved the results, including the change back to the original working practices. The conclusion was that the combination of variety in the workplace and people taking and interest in them inspired the workers. The effects on morale were more important than the actual changes made. Having a variety of classes and an interested management may be a substantial part of the "Perth effect".


That matches my experience :) Novelty is an underated tool at Ceroc.

Down my way, about a year ago, the format of the classes changed. I don't know if this was just following on from a change at Ceroc (mine is an independant organisation), so this might be old news to yuz guys. Instead of a four move beginner class, break, and a four move intermediate class, it changed to a three move beginner class, break, a three move intermediate class leading staight into a two move advanced/intermediate class. This was a bit of a seachange towards intermediates. At the time of it's implementation, it did add a little buzz to the intermediates night, whether that translated into better retention and whatnot, I have no idea, but just the extra buzz was welcome, if only for a short period. I also like the idea of rotating teachers. All my organisations venues are pretty close together, so if you really like a teacher, it's quite possible to find them, those of us who weren't *that* bothered about particular teachers, having a different teacher every six months or so also added a little extra spice every once in a while.

I do understand the importance of uniformality, but within the framework of a ceroc 'night', there are lots of things you can do to 'buzz' it up a bit and stop the dreaded boredom disease.

El Salsero Gringo
21st-September-2005, 02:48 PM
I do understand the importance of uniformality, but within the framework of a ceroc 'night', there are lots of things you can do to 'buzz' it up a bit and stop the dreaded boredom disease.You could *even* teach different moves from one week to the next, if you want a bit of novelty...

TA Guy
21st-September-2005, 07:29 PM
You could *even* teach different moves from one week to the next, if you want a bit of novelty...

Heh, well.... we don't wanna go to far.
:)