Spinning on the teapot

[robd]

Just a quick question for others in the light of recent freestyles. One of my favourite current moves is a simple teapot that, after walking round for 2 beats, I spin myself twice then reconnect the teapot hold and continue walking for 2 beats then exit the teapot in usual fashion. Simple and relatively easy to lead. What is surprising me is that when I begin to spin (or more accurately describe as turning quickly on the spot) about half of the ladies do not spin (the desired behaviour!) and about half start to spin themselves which leads to the move falling apart. Ladies, what would you expect to do in the above scenario - spin yourself or just continue to walk around the spinning man? Has anyone been taught this in a lesson? What was the advice there?
Ultimately it hardly matters as no-one is injured and we just regroup and start again but I am intrigued as to why there's a 50/50 split between people doing one thing and others doing the opposite.

Robert

[tsh]

I can't decide if you want the ladies to spin or not! What lead do you give to the lady?

And why is it that when I lead a lady to walk round me (with my left hand raised over my head) do a significant proportion decide to spin themselves as they walk round?

Sean

[robd]

I would prefer the ladies not to spin otherwise the moves break down as I am unable to retain a grip if we both spin.

I don't really give a lead other than launching in to the spin underneath my left/her right hands which are raised just above my head level (to assist spinning). Not really sure what lead I could give to indicate that I don't want her to spin other than a verbal one, and a verbal lead is not a lead it's an instruction.

Robert

[El Salsero Gringo]

and a verbal lead is not a lead it's an instruction.Why is an instruction not a lead? Or why is any other kind of lead not an instruction? If a quiet word in her ear does the trick... go for it. There's a move that I do which goes significantly more smoothly when you give the lady one word at just the right moment - and the word is "DUCK!"

[Cornish Pixie]

And why is it that when I lead a lady to walk round me (with my left hand raised over my head) do a significant proportion decide to spin themselves as they walk round?

Sean

I get this problem as well, i think its because they believe that just walking round you is too simple to be a move so guess you want them to return.

Wurlitzerrocks

[robd]

I thought that might provoke a reaction. It's all semantics really though I guess my definition of a lead would be something that the follower interprets. If it is clear then the interpretation is easy, if it's not then the interpretation is harder. With a verbal 'lead' there's really very little interpretation which is why I prefer to think of it as instruction. And I do accept that some moves really are very difficult to pull off succesfully without giving a verbal cue as to what you want the partner to do - I don't believe a Teapot Man-Spin for want of a better phrase fits into this category though.

Robert


Why is an instruction not a lead? Or why is any other kind of lead not an instruction? If a quiet word in her ear does the trick... go for it. There's a move that I do which goes significantly more smoothly when you give the lady one word at just the right moment - and the word is "DUCK!"

[Rhythm King]

I get this problem as well, i think its because they believe that just walking round you is too simple to be a move so guess you want them to return.

Wurlitzerrocks
:yeah:

I have a couple of moves like this. One was taught by Bill Cooper and at the time, he showed us how to give a lead which would tell the lady not to turn herself whilst walking round. The move consists of leading the follower to walk around the leader clockwise, whilst the leader step-turns back and forth rapidly under his raised hand. Keeping connection with the leading hand over the leader's head and gently keeping the tension should stop the follower from turning.
Doing the move with ladies who weren't at the class results in either a) the move works because the follower listens to subtle leads, or b) the follower either misses the subtle lead, or anticipates, and turns herself and the move usually ends in a mess. Not wishing to yank unneccessarily, I have resorted to the verbal lead, to pre-empt this.
Surely anything which conveys intent is a lead, be it by tension, compression, leverage, verbal, visual or whatever?

R-K :cheers:

[El Salsero Gringo]

I thought that might provoke a reaction. It's all semantics really though I guess my definition of a lead would be something that the follower interprets. If it is clear then the interpretation is easy, if it's not then the interpretation is harder. With a verbal 'lead' there's really very little interpretation which is why I prefer to think of it as instruction. And I do accept that some moves really are very difficult to pull off succesfully without giving a verbal cue as to what you want the partner to do - I don't believe a Teapot Man-Spin for want of a better phrase fits into this category though.

RobertAs far as I can see, successful partner dancing involves giving leads that are completely not open to "interpretation" - i.e., leads that the can only possible understand one single thing and that thing being exactly what you intended. It's when there's "interpretation" going on that things go awry!

Having said that, it is more satisfying to lead a move without giving a verbal lead, I agree! And you're trying to lead "do nothing" which is very difficult. Most ladies (at least the more unconfident ones) find it very disturbing not to be doing something like turning or spinning on the beat - since not moving is equated with not dancing. Which is a pity - I think it's nice to stand still for a beat or two, and wiggle hips or something else.

[Gadget]

I would prefer the ladies not to spin otherwise the moves break down as I am unable to retain a grip if we both spin.

I don't really give a lead other than launching in to the spin underneath my left/her right hands which are raised just above my head level (to assist spinning). Not really sure what lead I could give to indicate that I don't want her to spin other than a verbal one, and a verbal lead is not a lead it's an instruction.
The lead you want to give is that the lady remains stationary.
Part of this is having your hands above your head without leading the lady into you or having her turn.
Part of this is keeping your hands completley fixed in three dimensional space while you turn yourself.
Part of this is countering any movement that the lady starts with a lead in the opposite direction.
... all while turning.
I would say that your best bet is to catch them off-guard and while they are stepping away - you are more likley to pull them towards you in the spin, and this will conter the step back of the lady.

Good luck

[Zebra Woman]

There's a move that I do which goes significantly more smoothly when you give the lady one word at just the right moment - and the word is "DUCK!"

!! :eek:

Oh? Is that what you said?





The music is so loud in here!

:what:

[DavidB]

I haven't done a teapot in over 20 years. I can always remember someone doing their best to look like a teapot, complete with handle and spout, and everyone else desperately trying not to laugh. However I do a couple of other moves where I turn* without turning the lady.

The way of turning yourself whilst not turning the lady is to:
- just before you turn, lead her to stop.
- move your hand above your own head (and as far as possible away from her head) when you turn.
- keep your hand stationary, so there is nothing that could be construed as a lead. Presumably you don't need the lead yourself to do your own turn!

However the most important part is to lead every other turn properly.
Remember that lifting your hand up is not a lead for a turn. It is a lead for the lady to lift her hand up. If you want her to turn you have to lead that separately - either by using the other hand, or creating some turning motion with your raised hand. You should also make sure you lead all her turns with her hand above her own head. Then when you put your hand above your own head, and don't lead any other turning motion, she will notice the difference.

David

*When I say I turn, I don't mean that I turn. That would mean moving my feet! In reality I stand still, and move the dance floor around me.

[Rhythm King]

*When I say I turn, I don't mean that I turn. That would mean moving my feet! In reality I stand still, and move the dance floor around me.[/QUOTE]
:rofl: - and whilst simultaneously not spilling your pint! :wink:

[MartinHarper]

Why is it that when I lead a lady to walk round me (with my left hand raised over my head) do a significant proportion decide to spin themselves as they walk round?

Raising the girl's hand above head height is a cue for her to spin. Cf turns and returns.
One solution is to get down so that when you raise your left hand above your head, it is still below her shoulder height. This is kinda Lindy-ish, so it may not suit your dance style.

[tsh]

Raising the girl's hand above head height is a cue for her to spin. Cf turns and returns.
One solution is to get down so that when you raise your left hand above your head, it is still below her shoulder height. This is kinda Lindy-ish, so it may not suit your dance style.

Suits me, even though it sounds a bit tricky.

[spindr]

Raising the girl's hand above head height is a cue for her to spin. Cf turns and returns.
Rubbish :) Raising her hand over her head is a cue for her to spin (turn).

There is an easy solution if the lady is shorter than you -- :devil: hold your hand so high that the lady is pulled up onto tiptoes and then while she's tottering on the spot, then spin under that hand yourself :devil:

SpinDr.

[David Bailey]

Why is an instruction not a lead? Or why is any other kind of lead not an instruction? If a quiet word in her ear does the trick... go for it. There's a move that I do which goes significantly more smoothly when you give the lady one word at just the right moment - and the word is "DUCK!"
Hey, I know that move - you thief! :mad:

Anyway, as a general principle, this sounds like a good anticipation trap (see Straightjacket) - and a good way of sorting the Women from the Girls.

A good follower will, to me, not anticipate a turn where none is led - that way lies back-leading madness IMO. So if you're sure you're not leading a turn, this move gives you a good way of determining how good a follower is... :whistle:

[MartinHarper]

Raising her hand over her head is a cue for her to spin

By the time my hand is over her head, she's already started to spin. This is particularly true in a travelling return. I find that if I raise my hand above shoulder level in any move, there will be at least one woman who will try to spin under it.
I say "cue" rather than "lead" in deference to DavidB's comments.

[Lou]

A good follower will, to me, not anticipate a turn where none is led Ahhh... but a naughty follower might do anything! :wink:

[spindr]

Ahhh... but a naughty follower might do anything! :wink:
It's ok, the octuple windmill usually cures that :)
SpinDr.

[Gadget]

By the time my hand is over her head, she's already started to spin. This is particularly true in a travelling return. I find that if I raise my hand above shoulder level in any move, there will be at least one woman who will try to spin under it.
As DavidB says, that's the key point: actually lead all your turns rather than starting the lady on the way and raising your hand.

In a traveling return, you are already turning her as she is traveling; your lead hand has travelled accross the follower's body, away from. If you don't raise the hand, then it will turn into some sort of wrap thingie. If you stop raising at shoulder height, then it will turn into a shoulder wrap.

If you start to raise the hand without leading the lady to turn, she should be wealking towards you, and may interperate the lead as a turn in the opposite direction - but if anticipating, should only actually start the turning once they are in close so you can 'hold' them before doing your turn or do it in sync.

Personally, I always start the lady traveling forward before I give them any idea of what's going to happen next: a first move, man-spin, step accross, shoulder-slide,...etc. all start identically for the lady. Same with a wrap, cattapult, traveling return... etc. : The idea is that the lady starts traveling directly towards me, and I move out of her way or arround her path to execute the move. It gives a more "controlled" look/feel to the dance. {or so I am assured :wink:}

[Trish]

After reading this thread yesterday, I was quite curious so I tried this move out with various girls last night. Generally they followed well, the one who didn't as someone has already said seemed to be the less confident types (or they weren't concentrating) - it's as though just stepping forward is too easy and they think that if you're spinning they should be doing something too. I then asked them whether they felt like I lead them into a turn, and they told me that it didn't feel like that, it was more that they just panicked and turned anyway! I'll try it again though, it's a nice move, and it's probably just one of those moves you have to have tried a few times to get the feel of with different followers.