t-t-timing

[Gary]

I'm at a frustrating stage where I'm trying to time the end of some nifty move to a dramatic hit that I know is coming up in the music, but I'm mostly hitting the end of the move a beat or so too early or too late. Is anyone else stuck at this stage, (or better, found any good tricks for getting past it)?

Some tricks that kind of work are to hit the breaks with moves that don't take many beats to complete (so I don't have to plan ahead), or that I can "hold" for a beat or two before finishing them (so it's not such a drama if I start too early). There are a bunch of moves where those tricks won't work, or don't look good, though.

Are there some techniques/exercises to get me better at this stuff? Or should I not even be trying in case it sucks the spontaneity out of the dancing?

[DavidB]

Don't worry about always getting the end of a move to hit a break. Jive moves are so long that you would need to have an exceptional understanding of music and the dance to do this all the time.

Instead learn to disect a move. Take a simple move - eg yoyo - and for each step in it figure out a way of hitting the break.

Step back - hit a line
Step in - hold the lady
Twist out - twist with the lady to keep the same position
Twist back - hold the lady
Turn - do it double speed & hit a line
Step Back - hit a line
Return - double speed again
Step back - hit a line.

A yoyo takes 16 counts of music - as long as you start it towards the end of the verse/chorus where the break is going to be, you can hit the break.

(I would love to take credit for this - but this is what Robert Cordoba teaches...)

David

[Gadget]

Originally posted by gcapell
I'm at a frustrating stage where I'm trying to time the end of some nifty move to a dramatic hit that I know is coming up in the music, but I'm mostly hitting the end of the move a beat or so too early or too late. Is anyone else stuck at this stage, (or better, found any good tricks for getting past it)?
I know what you mean; I only manage to nail about one a night :waycool: (if I'm lucky :sick: ).
I think that half the skill is knowing the track - some may complain that songs are played night after night, but that just means that you know all the breaks and when the end of the track is looming.
I also think that listening to a lot of music in general; listening to the ebb and flow of songs, you can almost predict where songs are going, even if you have never heard them before.

I also find that if the finishing move is finishing before the end of the song, and you realise half way through it, you can slow it right down so that the last couple of phases are slow and slinky.

The other thing is knowing finishing bits that you can turn almost any move into; Gus's leans & dips workshop showed a couple of different leads into roughly the same dip: I would recommend taking workshops.

[TheTramp]

I also think that listening to a lot of music in general; listening to the ebb and flow of songs, you can almost predict where songs are going, even if you have never heard them before.This is sooooo true. Very few songs have 'random' breaks - where the music just stops suddenly without any warning.

Most of the breaks come at the end of phrases of music, which are often the same number of bars length throughout the song - an easy example of this would be 12 bar blues, where every phrase is, wait for it, 12 bars long.

Usually, just before a break, there is a clue that it's coming - the music gets louder - or quieter or speeds up slightly - or slows down, are obvious clues - although there are other more subtle ones.

Robert Cordoba (that chap again) put us through an exercise when we did his musicality class in September where he played a bit of American music that none of us had heard, and got us to raise our hands when we heard a break coming. After about 1/2 of the song, most people were raising their hands at the right point (although, it could be that those who didn't know were just raising their hands at the same time as those who did know :D ).

If you start to listen closely to the music, instead of just concentrating on the moves you are doing (in most cases I see, this is usually (although not exclusively) the reason I think most breaks are missed). When it comes down to it, the actual moves are far less important than what the music is doing anyhow. What David said earlier is a good idea. I would also suggest that you take a track you know well that has a lot of breaks in it, and do lots of simple things - travelling returns, step under etc. that are short moves, easily led, and then see if you can hit all the breaks in that track (you might want to get a partner who you know, and explain what you're doing, else she might get bored and never dance with you again).

Hope this helps
Steve

[horsey_dude]

I haven't heard the term "Break" used before (unless it was something like if you drop your partner try to break her fall). Can someone give me a definition?

Thanks.

[TheTramp]

Ummm. When the music 'pauses' or does something different from it's usual flow.

Steve

[Gary]

Originally posted by DavidB
Don't worry about always getting the end of a move to hit a break. Jive moves are so long that you would need to have an exceptional understanding of music and the dance to do this all the time.

Instead [ be ready to hit the break at any count within the larger moves ]

David

(Hope the paraphrase didn't lose too much).

That sounds like a great compromise for this bear of little brain. I've done stuff like that before ("oh bugger, break is here and I'm halfway through the move, let's do something here anyway"). It's nice to now be able to call it a "strategy" :-)

I've sometimes thought that I know that the big hit I want is on the "one" count two bars from now, if I know how many counts move X takes, I can arrange to start it at (say) the 2 count in the previous bar. But I'm worried that while I'm doing all this mental arithmetic I'll just be leading returns for a few bars (and my partner will walk off before the hit), or my head will explode. I'm guessing some talented/experienced folks do that kind of "arithmetic" unconsciously.

[DavidB]

(I'm neither a musician, or a music teacher. This is a dance-based view of music.)

A break is an interruption in the music. You are expecting a beat - but there isn't one. The idea of "hitting the breaks" is that if the music stops, then you should stop moving. And when the music starts again - you start moving again. It is sometimes called the second stage of musical interpretation (the first is dancing in time!)

Since is a partner dance, hitting the breaks looks best when you both do it. Unless you are doing a choreographed routine, or are both telepathic, you have to try to lead the pause. This is when you get 2 problems - when is the break coming, and how do you lead it.

Knowing when the breaks are coming is fairly easy - even if you have never heard the song before. Although each song is different, within each song the breaks are almost always in the same place. As a dancer I generally count music in eights (ie 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8, 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8, etc.) In pop music there are 4 eights to a verse or chorus. In Blues music there are 6 eights in a verse or chorus. The break is usually on the 1 or the 5 of the last eight in the verse
So count all the way through the first verse, and note when the break happens - is it on the 1 or the 5. (Don't worry about hitting the first break.) Then when you want to hit the next break - start counting at the beginning of a verse. It will be in the same place. The only problem is that you have to dance at the same time...

Leading the breaks is harder in jive than other dances. Jive emphasises the odd beats (1 3 5 7), whereas most other dances emphasise the even beats (2 4 6 8). In other dances, it is immediately noticable when you emphasise an odd beat, because you are doing something different. But in Jive we do this anyway. To do something different tends to mean leading differently - usually 'bigger'. If like most jivers you already lead big - you risk injuring your partner. This is why if you notice the people who are good at hitting breaks (Nigel, Roger Chin etc) they have pretty light leads in the first place.

The other thing is don't assume you have to do everything. If you have a good partner, then the chances are she can hit breaks all by herself. So give her a chance - and just take the credit!

When you start playing around with all this, expect your dancing to get worse. Most people can only think of one thing at a time when dancing - usually for the men this is what move do I do next. As soon as you start thinking about the music, the rest of your dancing will go downhill very quickly, and you will feel like a beginner again. But it is worth it.

David

(Again I didn't discover any of this by myself - this time credit goes to Mario Robau.)

[horsey_dude]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Wasn't mine good enough for you??Steve What the hey?

I seem to have double vision.... My post is there twice..... hmmm, not quite sure what happened there.

To answer the original post:

I'm a bit baffled by talk about stopping during a break. I only really stop at the end of a song. The exception would be where I have deliberately sped up part of the move to leave a bigger gap at the end. e.g. layback bring the lady up fast so you can look her in the eye just a moment longer for effect.

I have visions of a hall full of dancers suddenly freezing because the music stopped for a second (this would be helpful for photographers).

I think, number one: know the music! when I started I would listen to dance tracks I liked over and over again visualising what moves would go where. If you do this you don't have to worry about stuffing up a move and upsetting your partner and you can include moves you don't actually know how to lead in real life so that when you actually do them in class its not such a struggle to fit them in.

two: freestyle, freestyle, freestyle..... you can talk about ceroc and you can read about ceroc and you can even watch it on video but at the end of the day your biggest improvements come from getting out there and doing it.

[TheTramp]

I have visions of a hall full of dancers suddenly freezing because the music stopped for a second Wow. Wouldn't that be great!!!

Steve

[DavidB]

Originally posted by horsey_dude
I'm a bit baffled by talk about stopping during a break.Fair point. You don't have to freeze - most of the better dancers don't. It is just that stopping is the easiest thing to do (other than ignoring the break completely). If you are learning how to listen to the music, then don't worry about your dancing at the same time.

Hitting the breaks is usually the first thing that you learn in musical interpretation, because it is the easiest thing to do, and the most obvious when you don't. But it is only a small (and sometimes over-rated) part of interpreting the music.

I think, number one: know the music! when I started I would listen to dance tracks I liked over and over again visualising what moves would go where.If this works for you then keep doing it. Anything you can do that gives you more enjoyment from your dancing is worth it. I get the most fun from dancing to a really good track the first or second time I hear it.


two: freestyle, freestyle, freestyle..... you can talk about ceroc and you can read about ceroc and you can even watch it on video but at the end of the day your biggest improvements come from getting out there and doing it. Couldn't agree more. It's just that I can't dance at work, or at home...

David

[Dr. Feelgood]

Originally posted by DavidB

In pop music there are 4 eights to a verse or chorus. In Blues music there are 6 eights in a verse or chorus.

There's no rule that says that pop music has to have verses/choruses of a particular length. They come in all sorts of sizes. Same with most (and possibly all) music.


:cheers:

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Dr. Feelgood
There's no rule that says that pop music has to have verses/choruses of a particular length. They come in all sorts of sizes. Same with most (and possibly all) music.Like I said - I'm a dancer, not a musician. If is said "pop music usually has 4 eights to a verse/chorus, and blues usually has 6 eights to a verse/chorus" - would that be better?

If its a song you have never heard before, and you are trying to anticipate what is coming, you have to make some assumptions. The first assumption is that the song is danceable! Then you hope it is consistent - if the first verse has 4 eights, then the other verses and chorus will be the same. Another is that if there is a change in the bass line after the first 2 eights of a verse, then it is going to be 6 eights, not 4 eights. And finally if there is a break on a particular beat in the first verse, then it will be in the same place in the other verses.

You can't anticipate what happens in a bridge (is that the right word?). And you can't do anything about musicians deliberately confusing you, eg where thay occasionally throw in an extra beat, or change the timing completely.

David

[jiveoholic]

I find ending with a flourish on the beat not only very difficult but real good fun trying. Just to see the look on the ladies face as I start doing man-spin after man-spin to fill in a gap and then to start the intended move, realise that I have dropped her to my left hand side two beats early and then have to twirl her to my right hand side and drop her too late for the beat!

Hey - you don't have to have style or be technically correct to have fun, fun fun!

Serously, though, with a good partner, one can truncate moves. For instance, for the First move drop, I would normally turn the lady out and then back before dropping her. However, if the music demands it, I might just pull her in and drop her straight away. I would repeat that it is important that you can lead well, the lady responds to leads and does not second guess the whole move and that the lady can also feel that something is going to have to change to pick up the mosic break.

[Ronde!]

For competitions, where timing (and ending on the beat) is important, I was taught some *great* ideas by a couple of the lovely teachers here, Brian and Christine.

They taught me some "filler" moves that add style but aren't a "stop" in the dance. For example, the "Ginger Lean": just a First Move entry, but the man's R hand goes to the lady's waist to stop her stepping back; then the man broadens his stance with the left foot, and leans left, keeping his body straight with his right leg. The effect is a lunge to the left. The lady keeps her body straight, and can extend her arm above her head for style. She can also bring her outer knee up, keeping her foot pointed, this looks very elegant.

If the music is working to a finish, but you're not sure of the timing, this is a really easy move to get into quickly; you do the Ginger Lean, slowly and dramatically... then on the final beat, the man can (for example) straighten his left leg from the lunge and fast dip the lady directly from the lean, for a perfect finish. :)

A slightly tricker version would be to get upright slightly sooner, and do a Glen's Return straight into a dip or drop.

Live passionately,

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Ronde!
For competitions, where timing (and ending on the beat) is importantTiming yes - but why is ending on the beat important in a competition?

I would expect it in a showcase, but not in freestyle. Every competition I've seen, the judges have made their mind up long before the end of the song. The only thing you can do at the end to influence them is to make a mistake - like literally dropping your partner.


They taught me some "filler" moves that add style but aren't a "stop" in the dance. I like this idea, especially the changing tempo from a slow move to hitting a line.


Originally posted by in various threads
Ginger Lean, Swan Drop, Tango Drop, Nose Dive, Winder Dips, Astaire Dip, Salsa Dip, Sway Tornado Dip, Roaster, ...I take it you learn a lot of drops in Australia...

David

[Ronde!]

Originally posted by DavidB
Timing yes - but why is ending on the beat important in a competition?


You reach your crescendo with the end of the music, ending in a nice pose with a dip instead of either reaching your dip prematurely and holding it for four bars... or missing it and dipping when the music's stopped! (The latter is obviously less preferable than the former, if one *had* to mis-time the end).



I would expect it in a showcase, but not in freestyle. Every competition I've seen, the judges have made their mind up long before the end of the song.


Beginnings and endings add polish and professionalism to your freestyle routine. A standard C-for-Ceroc lead-in lacks the polish of a performance, which is what freestyle comp is. There's a panel of judges and 1500 people in an auditorium watching you on stage.

Sure, a big beginning and end isn't going to win a comp on their own; but they give you an edge in style and polish that might just tip the scales in your favour against another couple who are just as good at dancing, but haven't done it with a little flair and style.



I take it you learn a lot of drops in Australia...


Yes, we learn at least one drop every lesson. :) We don't use them all the time, but here it's considered acceptable to use dips and drops during social dancing, if the situation is evaluated as not dangerous, and the lady consents. Safety is highly stressed every lesson. The ladys love the variety, and people watching get a thrill. We started on the empty dance floor at the beginning of tonight (NYE celebrations at the Hyatt), and got applause from the other party-goers for doing dips!

My favourite at the moment? Possibly the Pretzel lead Winder dip, it's stunning. :)

Live passionately,