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View Full Version : That ole devil called Pain again



JoC
1st-July-2005, 07:01 PM
I know this crops up fairly regularly but thought I'd like to mention it again.

Had fantastic evenings dancing recently. One dance though, actually felt like my back could have potentially been quite strained during a double handed double spin (don't know name but both my hands are above my head and I'm being twirled round). Partner was a known 'yanker'.

Think the problem was either I was too far away or the lead was making an exaggerated circular motion with our hands above my head. Either way, I felt I was being pulled very off balance but rather helpless and my back muscles essentially took the strain to stop me from tipping over.

I'll do my best in future to make sure I'm not too far away but am really thinking I'm going to ask this partner to be more gentle (heck I've been dancing for 8 months now so I'm getting quite brave!). Is this reasonable? Trouble is I don't know how it'll sound coming from an upstart like me, being said to someone who's obviously been dancing longer than me...

There are always plenty of reminders during the classes about protecting shoulders and being gentle but they don't seem to be getting through to everyone...

Someone please condone what I am about to do!!!

David Bailey
1st-July-2005, 09:45 PM
Partner was a known 'yanker'.
...
I'll do my best in future to make sure I'm not too far away but am really thinking I'm going to ask this partner to be more gentle (heck I've been dancing for 8 months now so I'm getting quite brave!). Is this reasonable?
It's essential - I know, awkward, but he may even appreciate some advice.

Trouble is I don't know how it'll sound coming from an upstart like me, being said to someone who's obviously been dancing longer than me...
Yeah, but clearly not doing it well... Failing that, maybe a taxi dancer could help break the news to him?

Someone please condone what I am about to do!!!
Condone, Condone! You only have one back, you can always find another partner.

The same limitations apply to shoulders and knees - so many dancers get joint problems, it's scary. Especially old decrepit folks like me :sad:

Whitebeard
1st-July-2005, 10:48 PM
The same limitations apply to shoulders and knees - so many dancers get joint problems, it's scary. Especially old decrepit folks like me.
Know all about creaky painful joints, but I think they're just an inevitable product of advancing years; and not caused by dance per se. In fact it constantly amazes me that once I get up there in the beginner line-up all that jazz seems to disappear for the rest of the night. Except for the feet; they sometimes give me hell ;-Ow

Clive Long
2nd-July-2005, 02:29 AM
<< snip >> all that jazz seems to disappear for the rest of the night.

If only that were true at all venues :devil: and take "Hey Big Spender" with it
(sorry for manipulating your posting young Clive)

MartinHarper
2nd-July-2005, 03:12 AM
There are always plenty of reminders during the classes about protecting shoulders and being gentle but they don't seem to be getting through to everyone...

Well, the advice in class is normally along the lines of "be gentle, or you'll hurt someone's shoulder". This is mostly useless - you might as well talk to poor people and say "spend less, or you'll run out of money". It's good, and they mean well, but we shouldn't expect it to solve all problems.

What's more useful is specific advice. For example, recently someone told me that on beat 5 of a Lindy Turn, the lead I was applying to her back/shoulder was uncomfortable. This sort of feedback is easier to work with.

David Bailey
2nd-July-2005, 07:20 AM
Know all about creaky painful joints, but I think they're just an inevitable product of advancing years; and not caused by dance per se.
Oh sure - in fact, dancing will help avoid those pains, with luck. Did anyone see that programme on the Beeb a few years back, about the original jivers from the 1940s, who were still dancing (well) in the 90s? There was a quote in a review of that which sticks with me, something like: "These people almost deny the ageing process". Inspirational stuff.

But there's a difference between dancing well and sensibly, and being yanked around - and the latter can cause injuries. For example, I've had a shoulder impingement myself, and know several dancers who've had shoulder problems.

Take care of your body, and don't take any cr*p from people who yank it around.

Andy McGregor
2nd-July-2005, 10:17 AM
I have 2 bits of advice for JoC. Firstly, have a connection that you can release if the tension gets too much or is tuggy/jerky. Practice letting go of your partner's hand(s) when he pulls too hard (I've never known a female lead to be jerky or rough :flower: ). Secondy, in the turns it's up to the person being turned to control the height of their hand over their head: have the back of your hand so close to your head that you can almost feel your own hair. This has two affects, you will find the turns are more controlled and you won't feel like you're being pulled over because you're too far apart - unless you're too far apart! If you find you're too far apart remind your partner that the teacher always says "step IN to return youre partner anti-clockwise", lower the hands and step-back" - NOT "step back and turn your partner".

David Bailey
2nd-July-2005, 10:52 AM
Secondy, in the turns it's up to the person being turned to control the height of their hand over their head: have the back of your hand so close to your head that you can almost feel your own hair. This has two affects, you will find the turns are more controlled and you won't feel like you're being pulled over because you're too far apart - unless you're too far apart!
Excellent advice.

Some guys seem to be truly abysmal at simple turns and returns, it's strange. A friend was dancing with a guy at the Casbah last night; he's quite a bit taller than her, but still managed to hit her head with his hand every time he turned her. After the 8th time this happened, she stopped him to say something - he then took offence and walked off. Twit.

No loss, of course, and it's better to say something than not - just be aware that men's egos are fragile. :grin:

bigdjiver
2nd-July-2005, 11:29 AM
It is better that you lose a partner than you lose dancing.

RogerR
2nd-July-2005, 07:11 PM
Yes say something, Try to make it constructive so that you dont run out of dance partners though!

Yes do something! the best dances i have had used a light contact not a grip, and if my partner wanted to break the hold she always could. keep your hands OUT of grips just keep them pressed gently into contact so there is touch for a lead but no grip to apply force.

ChrisA
3rd-July-2005, 07:11 PM
but am really thinking I'm going to ask this partner to be more gentle (heck I've been dancing for 8 months now so I'm getting quite brave!). Is this reasonable?

Very much so.


Trouble is I don't know how it'll sound coming from an upstart like me, being said to someone who's obviously been dancing longer than me...

The worst dancers, strangely, are not the newest. New dancers are usually quite receptive to feedback, relatively free from ego, and keen to improve. :clap:

The worst dancers are very experienced at putting all their effort into doing it exactly as they've been doing for years, and any bad habits have become completely entrenched. :(

So the likelihood is that if they've been dancing a long time, with not many people brave enough to tell them that they've been causing pain all this time, they'll be unreceptive to feedback. :tears:

In which case, protect yourself, and don't dance with them anymore. :eek:

It's all very well, as some people do, taking the moral high ground and saying how great it is to never turn anyone down, but you didn't pay your money to have pain and injury inflicted on you.



Someone please condone what I am about to do!!!
Not just condoned, but positively encouraged. :hug:

JoC
4th-July-2005, 01:48 PM
Thanks everyone for the advice and support, I feel like I've just been to a therapy group! My name is JoC and I am the causer of over-assertive leading.


Firstly, have a connection that you can release if the tension gets too much or is tuggy/jerky. Practice letting go of your partner's hand(s) when he pulls too hard I'll make a note of the connection... and see if it is possible to let go, I can't remember off hand how easy that would be...


Secondy, in the turns it's up to the person being turned to control the height of their hand over their head: I didn't know this, or forgot if I knew it, but have to ask... how? I am but a helpless weak thing of fragility being controlled by big burly male creatures.


This has two affects, you will find the turns are more controlled My turns are frequently uncontrolled... :o


If you find you're too far apart We are often too far apart, and I concede I could have a significant role to play in the 'not getting too far apart' game.

Like the recommendation of giving move-specific advice and have done that a once or twice, only where I've worked out why a move isn't working though.

Hopefully I might get a second opinion this evening from someone who knows what they're talking about... :flower:

JoC
4th-July-2005, 02:19 PM
Anyway it doesn't matter now because I found a solution. It's easy, simply mask pain, with even more pain.

This can be achieved by spending your Friday night trying to breakdance as you might have in, say the 1980's, specifically trying to do the caterpillar floor walk (my name for it), you know the one where you dive onto the floor chest first then roll back again and again.

This was not alcohol induced, it just seemed a good idea at the time.

Ow.

ducasi
4th-July-2005, 02:32 PM
This can be achieved by spending your Friday night trying to breakdance as you might have in, say the 1980's, specifically trying to do the caterpillar floor walk ... :eek:

Yikes! Did you have an audience for this, or was it something you just felt like doing in the privacy of your own home? :really:

JoC
4th-July-2005, 02:34 PM
I can't remember now if the cat left the room in disgust or not.

ducasi
4th-July-2005, 02:39 PM
Sounds like you could work for this company. (http://orangecow.org/pythonet/sketches/confuse.htm) :wink:

JoC
4th-July-2005, 02:59 PM
Tee-hee!

tsh
4th-July-2005, 03:58 PM
There are always plenty of reminders during the classes about protecting shoulders and being gentle but they don't seem to be getting through to everyone...


Specific feedback is always useful... It's not always obvious to us when we're doing something wrong! Normally the only feedback we get is seeing if you nearly fall over after a turn or not - which isn't a great way of knowing if the lead was right or not!

Sean

Andy McGregor
4th-July-2005, 05:27 PM
I didn't know this, or forgot if I knew it, but have to ask... how? I am but a helpless weak thing of fragility being controlled by big burly male creatures.Dance with the shorter, weaker men - we'll love you for it :wink:

Trish
5th-July-2005, 10:59 AM
I'll make a note of the connection... and see if it is possible to let go, I can't remember off hand how easy that would be...

I would say this depends on how loose the guys grip is, unfortunately yankers often seem to also crush your hand!


I am but a helpless weak thing of fragility being controlled by big burly male creatures.

Yes I know what you mean here, especially when the guy is a lot taller than you it can be difficult to do this effectively, even though it's a good idea in principle!


My turns are frequently uncontrolled... :o

We are often too far apart, and I concede I could have a significant role to play in the 'not getting too far apart' game.

I don't know if this is true or not, being as I haven't danced with you (or not that I know of anyway!), but if you are uncontrolled and too far apart, sometimes something as simple as just stepping with smaller strides can help - however if you're dancing with some bloke with great long legs this can also be difficult.

[QUOTE=JoC] Like the recommendation of giving move-specific advice and have done that a once or twice, only where I've worked out why a move isn't working though.
[QUOTE]

Yes this can often work.

I had a situation where a guy with arms like a chimpanzee was always yanking me around when he danced with me. I did mention to him about four times that short of jumping off the floor I actually couldn't reach that high (he's about a foot taller than me) and that it would be more comfortable if he put his hand just above my head when turning me, I also mentioned that it isn't very nice when someone keeps treading on your toes! He has been dancing years and just looked at me like a cheeky upstart each time, so eventually I told him I was not going to dance with him any more, as I didn't want to be hurt and he hurt me every time. He looked fairly offended, but hasn't asked me since, and although I felt a bit guilty, I certainly don't regret it, it's better than injuring my already slightly dodgy shoulder and not being able to dance for months!

Lou
5th-July-2005, 11:33 AM
I had my shoulder put out again last night duing a class. :(

The move was a rather nice catapult variation which involved spinning the lady a couple of times at the end. :drool: Trouble is, the men couldn't decide which way the lady should turn. Half were leading it clockwise, the other half anticlockwise. Having experienced both versions, I admitted to my next partner that I was unsure about the move.

"Don't worry", he said, "I know what I'm doing....", only to pull me quite roughly through the move. On hearing my resulting "Ouch!", he looked at me quizzically.

"That was a bit forceful", said I.

The poor man looked extremely indignant, but said nothing. Luckily, it was rotation time again....

David Bailey
5th-July-2005, 11:59 AM
"Don't worry", he said, "I know what I'm doing....",
Words to put fear into the hearts of anyone hearing them in my experience... :eek:

On hearing my resulting "Ouch!", he looked at me quizzically.
Ouch indeed - :hug: - you should have clunked him one!

The only valid people who should be consistently refused a dance are sleazebags and yankers. And you should feel no shame or guilt about such refusals, ever.

JoC
5th-July-2005, 12:37 PM
Speaking of guilt, I feel guilty about my original post now.

...mopes off miserably to cupboard trailing large bunch of birch twigs behind to self-flagellate (which may or may not be connected to the guilt)...

MartinHarper
5th-July-2005, 12:43 PM
The poor man looked extremely indignant, but said nothing.

I can sympathise. Decent feedback is rare in MJ, as opposed to drooly luvvie nonsense. Often we do something for several weeks before someone points out that it's less than ideal, so it's easy to get defensive and such. I genuinely love getting unsolicited dancing advice (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3884), but it can still take me a few dances or rotations to get over myself and properly accept what's been said.

It often takes me a while to translate follower-feedback into leader-advice. If my partner genuinely experienced a lead as "too forceful", sometimes the correct response is to do the same move, but exert half the force, but that's rare. More often it's to do with when the force is applied: too early, too late, not adaptive enough, wrong place, "body lead" vs "arm lead", and so forth.

Lou
5th-July-2005, 01:04 PM
I can sympathise. Decent feedback is rare in MJ, as opposed to drooly luvvie nonsense. Often we do something for several weeks before someone points out that it's less than ideal, so it's easy to get defensive and such. So, my dearest Martin, are you suggesting that the conversation might've been better as:

Lou: I'm not sure which way I should be turning - the other men so far have done it differently.

Bloke: Don't worry. I know what I'm doing...

Lou: Ouch!

Bloke: [quizzical look]

Lou: [flutter] Oooh... you're so forceful, you hunky, macho thing, you, I could fall in a heap at your feet... [simper] ... Oh, and you're the best I've ever had....

:whistle:

I thought my "that was a bit forceful" was pretty tactful by my standards. :D

Gadget
5th-July-2005, 01:07 PM
More often it's to do with when the force is applied: too early, too late, not adaptive enough, wrong place, "body lead" vs "arm lead", and so forth.
:yeah:

MartinHarper
5th-July-2005, 01:30 PM
So, my dearest Martin, are you suggesting that the conversation might've been better as...

I think the conversation went great. True things were said. Thought was provoked. Drooly luvvie nonsense was skillfully avoided. The brief look of indignance, far from being a bad thing, is a sign that stuff might actually change as a result. Good work: 9/10. Would have been 10/10, except you said it was "a bit forceful", when you clearly meant to say "Hey! I'm attached to that arm, you klutz!"

I was just sympathising (empathising?) with the guy. I'd sympathise with you too, but I've not been put in that situation... yet.

JoC
5th-July-2005, 01:34 PM
Lou: [flutter] Oooh... you're so forceful, you hunky, macho thing, you, I could fall in a heap at your feet... [simper] ... Oh, and you're the best I've ever had....

Can I use that please?

Lou
5th-July-2005, 01:48 PM
I'd sympathise with you too, but I've not been put in that situation... yet.
Yet. :devil:


:rofl:

(Sorry. I'm crotchety. :flower: I always am when my shoulder plays up. )

:D @ JoC. Feel free!

Andy McGregor
5th-July-2005, 02:09 PM
Lou: [flutter] Oooh... you're so forceful, you hunky, macho thing, you, I could fall in a heap at your feet... [simper] ... Oh, and you're the best I've ever had....You've been saying that to other guys? :tears:

Can I use that please?Any time you like :devil:

ducasi
5th-July-2005, 02:48 PM
Can I use that please? Use that on me and I'll say your dances are worth more than 25p in future! :D

So how did it go last night?????

JoC
5th-July-2005, 04:03 PM
So how did it go last night?????
Wasn't there... hence guilt, paranoia, has he read this? Does he know who he is? Have I caused him to leave and never return...? Hopefully not, he's a nice chap.

ducasi
5th-July-2005, 04:59 PM
Ohh poor Jo... :hug:

JoC
17th-August-2005, 10:29 PM
Little belated update in case anyone is interested, a suitable moment arose and the subject was broached, issues were gotten off chest and all was well :D The subject can now be brought up I hope using humour in future with same person and improvement has come to pass. :grin:

In this instance saying something worked out. If you don't know it, you can't do anything about whatever it is.

RogerR
20th-August-2005, 09:15 AM
The best leads are all finely honed by the followers that care.

Sheepman
22nd-August-2005, 11:06 AM
Speaking of guilt, I feel guilty about my original post now.I can't see why you should feel like that, hopefully you're not too bruised from all that flagellating! :really:
I don't know from your original post whether it was double speed turns you were doing, (something I don't think I ever do double handed) I think plenty of guys think they need to force such moves to make them happen, when a better approach would be if you can't get it to work without forcing it too much, then don't do it at all. (Of course there is always the subjective decision of what is "too much force.")

Andy is right about the position of the hands above the head when doing turns, it should be only just above the head, (usually just in front of the forehead to describe a "halo" on the turn) and if the guy is not doing this right, then the lady should be determining the height. That's not going to be easy to do if he's gripping firmly and forcing hands high up, but I can't think of any turns where there should be a firm grip.

Greg

TiggsTours
22nd-August-2005, 11:41 AM
If only that were true at all venues :devil: and take "Hey Big Spender" with it
(sorry for manipulating your posting young Clive)


NO, NO, NO!!!! ALL THAT JAZZ, MORE, MORE, MORE!!!! MY FAVOURITE DANCE TUNE EVER! AND HEY BIG SPENDER, LOVE IT!!!! :clap: :clap:

TiggsTours
22nd-August-2005, 11:42 AM
The best leads are all finely honed by the followers that care.
:yeah:

stewart38
22nd-August-2005, 12:57 PM
NO, NO, NO!!!! ALL THAT JAZZ, MORE, MORE, MORE!!!! MY FAVOURITE DANCE TUNE EVER! AND HEY BIG SPENDER, LOVE IT!!!! :clap: :clap:

If only i could hit all the breaks every time, love those types of songs

JoC
22nd-August-2005, 01:09 PM
I can't see why you should feel like that, hopefully you're not too bruised from all that flagellating! :really:Don't like to think I've made anyone feel bad. I'm a sensitive little thing sometimes :flower:. I only broke the skin in a couple of places that time.

I don't know from your original post whether it was double speed turns you were doingNope, just regular speed double handed turn. I think it was a 'stirring the pot' scenario with a slightly too firm grip when I wasn't close enough in the first place that resulted in a bit of a wrench on my back as he stirred back towards himself while I was facing the other way. Had no idea he was doing it. We also talked generally about over-enthusiasm and how gentle is more comfortable and pleasant for a lady (moi) and the gentleman in question resolved to be more gentle. Might need a little reminding now and then but at least we can go there now. :)

Sheepman
22nd-August-2005, 01:59 PM
Might need a little reminding now and then but at least we can go there now. :) It sounds to me like this should work out being beneficial all round. Maybe they'll be mutual respect and you'll both be able to discuss any future problems.
(And there'll be peace and harmony in the world! :sick: )

(And please don't take that the wrong way! When we danced the only problems I noticed were me trying to cope with the lack of space, and how below par I was!)

Greg

JoC
22nd-August-2005, 07:07 PM
When we danced the only problems I noticed were me trying to cope with the lack of space, and how below par I was!Well in that case I can't wait to have a dance with you when you're on (or should it be above or over...not good on the old golf terms) par!(Was a little crowded wasn't it?)
I can't claim to have been under par but was in super-concentrating-trying-to-be-ready-for-anything-because-I've-no-idea-what-moves-any-of-these-new-people-are-going-to-spring-on-me-mode... never mentioned it previously but I'm sure that must have been one of the best exercises a person could do regards working on following and ironing out any traces of anticipation.