V&L - Dance gods, or just gods??

[TheTramp]

Okie, I thought it was time I was controversial..... :D

Question:

Everyone raves about Viktor and Lydia. If he was bald, fat and overweight, and she was plump with spots and bad hair, do you think that they would get quite so many rave reviews, even if they danced exactly the same way.

They are undoubtably great dancers, but does the fact that he's muscled and fit, with a great smile, and she's gorgeous, fit, with a great smile and that hair add to their legend. Or would they be the same if they were just normal human beings??

Jealous? Hell yes, of course I'm jealous!! :D

Steve

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Gus
PLease Delete

Please delete what ? did you change your mind about something controversial or are you talking to theTramp ? :)

Anyway, dancing well and looking good has nothing at all to do with body shape, looks or anything other than style, musical interpretation and ability. Why I even saw this guy once who was a simply superb dancer even though he looked like an American football linebacker, wore a green zoot suit and glasses. He was probably born in Wales (Im a good judge).


:D

[Basil Brush (Forum Plant)]

Originally posted by TheTramp
If he was bald, fat and overweight, and she was plump with spots and bad hair, do you think that they would get quite so many rave reviews, even if they danced exactly the same way.
No. I think it's about the 'look' as well as the style....

I saw that guy in the green zoot suit as well - who WAS that? :wink:

[Gus]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe


Please delete what ? did you change your mind about something controversial or are you talking to theTramp ? :)
:D

Fraid I was not asking for our plump Green garnished friend to be deleted ..... I had merely reflected on my post (which gave an example of great dancers who may not have been gifted with adonis like features). I made the wise choice that calling someone an 'ugly git' on the forum was possibly not the best way to make friends and influence people ... so I withdrew my post.

[Dreadful Scathe]

No thats quite OK. I AM an ugly git after all :)

[Ronde!]

To be compleeeetely honest,

yes, the "look" can be part of the dance. Watching an awesome dance partnership is a thing of beauty, and you get an edge in a partnership from every ounce of beauty you can bring to it. It's the reason that competitors in Ballroom Internationals have numerous costumes for each style; and I've been told that each ladies Waltz outfit can have a replacement value in the region of 500 pounds / US$750 / AU$1500. At that level, you want to be as stunning as money can (and can't) buy.

If you're born with "The Look," so much the better for you; I just wish I had a little more of it. :( ;)

The disclaimer: being beautiful doesn't make you a better dance partner, though. :) My favourite dance partner isn't a covergirl, but on the dancefloor, she gets my heart racing like nobody else can. :)

Live passionately,

[Debster]

Don't try and tell me the look is unimportant.

I have performed my own personal experiment at Ceroc... What I am wearing has an enormous impact on my evening dancing.

Admittedly it was at one of the more harsh London venues (the same place I used to see V&L), where I have found that if you show a bit of skin in a fashionable outfit your chances of getting a dance are mutliplied tremendously. It's also the only thing that has brought compliments from the teachers of the class.

You'd think that the guys could maybe remember the fun you had with them and your dancing skill and ask for a dance the following week also, but unless the 'look' is there too, it just isn't the same (or as enjoyable). Many guys just don't ask unless you qualify as attractive. And if it was only the guys who didn't care about dancing that applied to I'd understand, but it relates to the good dancers too.

On the original question - I agree that someone with a less than svelt figure can look good dancing, but it's got to be harder for them just in the loss of flexibility alone.

(BTW the ballroom dresses are actually worth much MUCH more than £500 :sick: )

[TheTramp]

I agree that someone with a less than svelt figure can look good dancing, but it's got to be harder for them just in the loss of flexibility alone.Ummmm..... Bigger people have less flexibility?? Not sure that I can agree with this one.

Steve

[Debster]

On re-reading my reply several times, I feel a little bit harsh...

I have many friends I have great fun and dancing with at that venue now, whatever I wear.

I'm just jealous/mad that some of the other good dancers there don't know I exist until they can see my legs... :confused:

[Debster]

Ummmm..... Bigger people have less flexibility?? Not sure that I can agree with this one.
OK, maybe I just can't see their hips moving in isolation or the range of movement in their back...

[TheTramp]

Now, now Debs. There's no need to be fattist!!

You wanna pick any skinny person you like, and I'll compete against them in the flexibility stakes, and also in the hip wiggle stakes too :D

Steve

PS. I think you've got great legs ;)

[Debster]

My legs thank you Steve for your appreciation ;)

And I'm not saying you couldn't beat the butts off anyone, and you know I really enjoy dancing with you too!!

But I am sure people like us who are not blessed with perfect bodies have to work harder to do as well as V&L to look good on the dancefloor (Even if we could dance as well!). :tears:

[TheTramp]

and you know I really enjoy dancing with you too!!So, when am I going to get to see you for a dance then??

Are you coming to Bognor this year?

Steve

[Will]

Hi Debs

Long time no see. Happy New Year!!!

Just for the record, you do know that I would dance with you even if you were wearing an Nuclear protective anti-radiation suit.

[Debster]

Will, I am so tempted to try that out...

Anyone know where I could get a Nuclear protective anti-radiation suit? Preferably in black with some sparkles :)

D

[TheTramp]

Debs....

I've got one right here. I'll bring it along to the next dance.....

Are you coming to Bognor this year??

Steve

[Bill]

I don't doubt that the way V&L looks adds to their overall appeal and the visual impact they make but I reckon even if they weren't as good looking as they are they would still be seen as great dancers.

Being a very good dancer can also make someone appear to be more attractive to others. On the other hand a good looking dancer who can't dance very well might still get a few dances but wouldn't have the same appeal for many men/women.

This has been touched on before on several threads but as for what you wear I think that a dancer might stand out - whether they are good or bad - depending on what they are wearing and it's not necessarily a decision based on attractiveness. So many dancers at Ceroc classes wear black that people can almost blend in so if a woman wears a bright colour and a dress she might be noticed more.

When I look around for someone to dance with the most important criteria is whether the woman is smiling ( and therefore might say yes !!) If a woman looks very tired - or has just come off the floor I might not ask as she may want a rest and if she isn't smiling I might pass by. There isn't that much time to dance during a normal class night but at a party where you might not know some of the dancers it's a case of asking and hoping she says yes.

A smile is much more important to me - and I'm sure many other dancers than a colourful or 'revealing' outfit.

And yes V&L are wonderful.

[Siobhan (Forum Plant)]

I think that looking the part makes you feel better about yourself and often dance with more confidence. But truly amazing dancers always look great- but can look even better if they are gorgeous too in my opinion.

Victor and Lydia are nice, but I have seen better.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Siobhan

Victor and Lydia are nice, but I have seen better.

Interesting comment .... V&L have been fairly dominant in the UK for some time and I've always wondered when who would be the next 'New Thing'. I've heard great things about Robert Cordobo ... but never seen him ... also heard good things about Adam Nathanson ... but also sadly have yet to see for myself..... who would you suggest is 'better' .... keen to see.:nice:

[TheTramp]

Robert Cordoba is amazing to watch (with Debra (and I'm not even going to attempt to spell her surname)). V&L, good though they are, aren't even a patch. However, I don't think they count as either the Next great thing - I think they've been around together for quite some time. The main reason that you don't hear about them much, is because they are based in the States. They are also WCS, rather than jive.

Anyone booking them to teach in the UK though is guarenteed one person at least at the class. And I can't remember the last time I paid to do a class! :D

Adam is an extremely good teacher - I'd put him right up there with any other UK teachers (interestingly enough, he was originally turned down 5 times to be a ceroc teacher!!)

Steve

[TheTramp]

I just have to point out that neither Robert or Adam is in any way paying me for my above comments. Though, they can if they want!

Steve

[Lydia]

Hellooooo everyone!:waycool:

First time this year that I check out the forum.. boy you guys never rest! Just went thought all the posts on this thread...
Regarding the Being Good looking v Not so good looking on the dancefloor is concerned.... I have one thing to say, it doesn't make a difference! And that's my true opinion.. if anyone has knowledge of the salsa scene there's a dancer/ teacher called Robert Charlemagne and the man is HUGE and I mean HUGE... but you should see him on the dancefloor... everyone stops to watch.. he's agile on his feet (he's dubed the Mambo King!) and a dream to dance with.. not only is he a great dancer but a personality to match.. and that's what counts on the dancefloor.. if you're good looking and don't have the "charisma" to attract attention.. no matter how good dancer you are, people won't see you! Another example.. there's a black girl who goes to my Salsa classes..and she too is big, but I can't stop watching her dance.. she is so confident and cheeky that she shines on the dancefloor.. and she's also VERY popular with the guys! She moves those hips probably even better than any slimline girl could ever do... so no I don't think being good looking is a must have to be a popular dancer!

As far as Robert Cordoba and his partner are concerned.. I have to agreed that they are both AMAZING, I definately look up to them and if they were teaching around here.. it'd be pure bliss. They are the best dance couple I have seen for a while (without including Salsa/Mambo) I had never seen West Coast Swing before and I just loved it.. footwork, music interpretation, the fact that you have plenty of time to play around .. if anyone knows about West Coast Swing classes in London.. please let me know!

Also regarding the does what you wear make you have more dances... Errrrr... from experience.....I wear little tops and things that shows a little bit a skin...OK..lots of skin (I take advantage of it while I can... won't be able to do it when I'm 40-50!!).. and I spend most of my freestyle sitting down! No one ask me to dance.. I don't think I'm scary and I do smile :grin: but I still don't get asked... so I don't agree with the skimpier the more dances you get!

I think that's about it for me..got to get back to work!:sick:
Hope to see you around sometimes.

Lots of love

Lydia

[Gus]

Originally posted by Lydia
Also regarding the does what you wear make you have more dances... Errrrr... from experience.....I wear little tops and things that shows a little bit a skin...OK..lots of skin
.......and I spend most of my freestyle sitting down! No one ask me to dance.. I don't think I'm scary and I do smile :grin: but I still don't get asked... so I don't agree with the skimpier the more dances you get!

Lots of love

Lydia Good points well made. If someone has an excellent figure I don't see that they should have to walk around in sackcloth and ashes.:yum:

Re the not getting asked ... I must admit that I still have to pluck up courage to ask Lydia to dance .... even though she is a total delight to dance with. I think some of it is that at the back of my mind I know I can never satisfy her like Viktor, in the same way that Linda B intimidates me because of trying to live up to her usual partner, Mike Allard. I KNOW thats illogical but maybe its not just me that feels that way. Male egos are a delicate thing etc etc etc:sorry

Oh ... the above doesn't stop me lecturing everyone to dance with all the best dancers they can find .... "do as I say, not do as I do ...."

[Bill]

Originally posted by Lydia
Hellooooo everyone!:waycool:

and I spend most of my freestyle sitting down! No one ask me to dance.. I don't think I'm scary and I do smile :grin: but I still don't get asked... so I don't agree with the skimpier the more dances you get!

Lydia Well Lydia............... unlike Gus I did pluck up the courage to dance with you when I was at Stockport last year. I've been to several of your workshops and 'plucking up the courage' is the correct term.

Like it or not, when you have the reputation you and V have ( and some of the other top dancers) it's like Gus says..........we can't help thinking that there's no way we can dance like Viktor so you're not going to enjoy it. That's an unfortunate side effct of being considered so good even though having spoken to many really good women they say that they just enjoy dancing - however good the man might be.


The other reason men don't ask you is that they might assume you've been on the floor all night and so need a rest. And of course you've had several injuries over the last year or so and I didn't ask you at one event because you're leg was hurting.

But I do agree about the personality over the clothes issue.

Bill

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Lydia
As far as Robert Cordoba and his partner are concerned.. I have to agreed that they are both AMAZING, I definately look up to them and if they were teaching around here.. it'd be pure bliss. They are the best dance couple I have seen for a while (without including Salsa/Mambo) I had never seen West Coast Swing before and I just loved it.. footwork, music interpretation, the fact that you have plenty of time to play around .. if anyone knows about West Coast Swing classes in London.. please let me know!
Well - funny you should mention that...

Robert is coming to the UK from 25 Feb until 11 March. He will be teaching at a number of venues in and around London. In particular we are running whole day of WCS workshops on Saturday 8th March in North Kensington. This will have Robert teaching three 1.5 hour workshops entitled 'Whip variations', 'Extended Patterns & Variations' and 'Lead & Follow/Playing & Improvising'.

There will also be a free* beginners workshop in the morning to teach the basics of West Coast Swing, taught by myself and Lily. (*Free as long as you pay for at least one of Robert's workshops.)

It now looks like we will be taking him up to Blackpool on 1 March to watch the competition. If anyone is interested in a private lesson with Robert on this day, please let us know and we will see what we can arrange.

A number of private lessons are also available in London throughout his stay. Again if anyone is interested, let us know.

For more details send me a PM.

David

[Lydia]

David you're a STAR :cheers: !! We luckily don't have any bookings on the 8th of March... could you please let me have all the details as far as booking our space is concerned.. & also the morning lesson with you & Lily! Want to make the most of it!!!!!! If you need my email address just let me know! Thank you for that xxxxx
:kiss:

[Siobhan (Forum Plant)]

Originally posted by Bill
..........we can't help thinking that there's no way we can dance like Viktor so you're not going to enjoy it.

From the female perspective, we feel the same about dancing with godly males. How can they possibly enjoy it when we can't follow their moves with any style or grace, because we're concentrating so hard on not cocking up!

Lydia- you are soooo smooth- how d'ya do it? Tips please. . .

[tubby]

I've just read through all the posts about size, looks etc. I'm not the smallest of girls and I love dancing so I don't wait for the guys to ask me - I ask them! Heck! We all pay to have a good time! If I feel that some bloke doesn't want to dance with me for my looks well that's his loss - I'm not too bad on my feet so I wont waste my time on him.

I have to say though, for personal favourites, I love watching Bill Cooper and Becky Tucker Johnson (Uxbridge) dancing together. Oh and yes, I have to mention Brady dancing with Mhairi(Glasgow).

[Carla]

Being a larger lady, I disagree with some remarks in this thread-they are a bit size-ist!

[Gus]

Originally posted by Carla
Being a larger lady, I disagree with some remarks in this thread-they are a bit size-ist!

Must admit that I wasn't aware that not being an Adonis was a barrier to dancing well!! I think that looking good and dancing good are not always the same thing. There is a chap on the Southern circuit, think his name is Stuart who is decidedly less than petite .... he's very pleased to have lost around 5st ... and he's still well over16st now ... but he's a great dancer, nice to watch and he does moves I can only aspire to.

Size (or lack of it) is about as important as age ... i.e. it ISN'T! Enjoying dancing is about a couple who's lead and follow is more or less together, who enjoy each other moves and enjoy the track they are dancing to ... all else is superflous (IMHO) :grin:

[Bill]

Originally posted by Gus
Size (or lack of it) is about as important as age ... i.e. it ISN'T! Enjoying dancing is about a couple who's lead and follow is more or less together, who enjoy each other moves and enjoy the track they are dancing to ... all else is superflous (IMHO) :grin: and I'll drink to that !!!!!:D

I had several dances with women I hadn't danced with before at the Edinburgh party last Saturday and they were all fun regardless of the woman's height, weight or outfit. Indeed one of the best dances I've had for a while was with a lady slightly older than myself and was wonderfully light on her feet ( sorry I didn't get your name).

As I said earlier a smile and a look of enjoyment is so much more important than anything else and having fun on the floor is what we all go along for isn't it !? :na: :cheers:

[Dancing Veela]

I think it's one thing to say that enjoying a dance isn't about how anyone looks - it's all to do with how it feels, but let's face it when it comes to competitions looks do come into it - if you are fat and ugly you have to dance better than the beautiful couple to win it!

Let's keep an eye out for it at Blackpool and see how many of the beautiful people win :sick:

[TheTramp]

Or how many of the fat, ugly people win :D

It could just be (of course), that the beautiful people are also the best dancers......

Steve

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gus
and he's still well over16st now And what is wrong with being over 16st????

[Gus]

Originally posted by DavidB
And what is wrong with being over 16st????
Oracle, dear chap, what I meant to say is that he doesn't wear it as well as you do ... can't see anyone calling you fat ...wheras I'm afraid with the other chap that word does spring to mind..
..... not that there ois anything wrong with being overweight'..:sorry if I continue digging myself in any deeper I'll soon be in Australia

[TheTramp]

Actually, Stuart is a lot heavier than 16st.

He's heavier than me, and I weigh over 18st.

Steve

[Debster]

Originally posted by Dancing Veela
I think it's one thing to say that enjoying a dance isn't about how anyone looks - it's all to do with how it feels, but let's face it when it comes to competitions looks do come into it - if you are fat and ugly you have to dance better than the beautiful couple to win it!

Let's keep an eye out for it at Blackpool and see how many of the beautiful people win :sick:

Well said DV! I entirely agree. Sad, but true.

See you at Blackpool :wink:

[Carla]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Actually, Stuart is a lot heavier than 16st.

He's heavier than me, and I weigh over 18st.

Steve

You are not who I thought you were Steve!!!! OOPS...

[Bill]

Originally posted by Debster
Well said DV! I entirely agree. Sad, but true.

See you at Blackpool :wink: Possibly true and I don't think that there can be any doubt about how important 'looking good' is to the Ceroc organisation - and some would argue that there's nothing wrong with that.

However, as others have now said, there are quite a number of dancers who are large but who dance beautifully - male and female. If they dance well and look as though they are enjoying themsleves I think someone who is large and less attractive than some other dancers should still do well.

Maybe it's a coincidence that some of those deemed to be very good, or who win comps are seen as attractive and if you dance a lot there might be more chance of being fitter and slimmer than non- dancers. Then again some dancers are attractive on the floor but might be very 'average' off it - the very act of dancing well can make them appear to be more attractive than they are.

Be interesting to see who competes in Blackpool then..... only 3 weeks to go ! :sick: :cheers:

[Sandy]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Actually, Stuart is a lot heavier than 16st.

He's heavier than me, and I weigh over 18st.

Steve

A case of quality and quantity!

Sandy;)

[TheTramp]

Now then Sandy. You're just trying to redeem yourself after the bullshi**er comment, aren't you :D


You are not who I thought you were Steve!!!! OOPS...Ummm. Does this help then Carla?? (I'm the one in the white shirt :D)

Steve

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Now then Sandy. You're just trying to redeem yourself after the bullshi**er comment, aren't you :D

Ummm. Does this help then Carla?? (I'm the one in the white shirt :D)


You appear to have something stuck to your shirt. ! :D

[TheTramp]

Ummm. That'd be Vanessa :D

Steve

[Sandy]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Now then Sandy. You're just trying to redeem yourself after the bullshi**er comment, aren't you :D

Ummm. Does this help then Carla?? (I'm the one in the white shirt :D)

Steve

Is that an intermediate or advanced move would you say??:devil:

Sandy:cheers:

[John S]

Originally posted by Sandy
Is that an intermediate or advanced move would you say??:devil:

Sandy:cheers:

It looked more like Steve intended it as a preliminary to other moves he was thinking about.:devil:

[Jayne]

Steve,

your beard's not ginger is it?

J :what:

[PeterL]

Originally posted by Sandy
Is that an intermediate or advanced move would you say??:devil:

Sandy:cheers:

With Steve just being a beginer I had presumed that they had just fallen over:devil:

[Sandy]

Originally posted by PeterL
With Steve just being a beginer I had presumed that they had just fallen over:devil:

Yep Peter you are probably right! Hope he can stay upright tonight at the party!:devil:

Sandy

[Ronde!]

Originally posted by Gus
if I continue digging myself in any deeper I'll soon be in Australia

:reallymad ...And WHAT is wrong with being in Australia??? :reallymad

:wink:

Leo

[Gus]

Originally posted by Ronde!
:reallymad ...And WHAT is wrong with being in Australia??? :reallymad


Absolutely nothing, dear chap ... just one heck of a long way from which to commute to my local club!