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LMC
22nd-June-2005, 11:08 PM
There seems to pretty much be general agreement that it's easier for beginner women to get into freestyle than beginner men - because they are following rather than leading. I would tend to agree, although the difficulty of learning to follow is possibly under-rated IMO - especially judging by the number of men who complain about back-leading!

However - and this is the point of this thread, just in case it gets lost in my usual "going off at a tangent": it seems to me that there is a point, somewhere around 'after a few intermediate classes' where men and women are pretty much even in terms of the steepness/difficulty of the learning curve. A "leap of faith" is needed between "new intermediate" and "true intermediate". For women - trusting the lead. For men - not having to be a hot shot and know as many moves as possible. IMO, this is the 'true' division between beginner and intermediate - it's technique and attitude rather than the moves you know. Of course, style comes into it too, but I don't want to open that can of worms right now.... :eek:

I'm tempted to put this next bit in tiny text in the hope that it will look like I've not gone on so long. But since that hope will be vain, I'm just going to go ahead with submission of evidence for this hypothesis:

I've been complimented a number of times on being a good follower, which is nice :nice: . But now I'm not "obviously" a complete beginner, men are getting brave and trying out fancy stuff on me - more complicated moves, dips/leans, etc - which is great and I'm mostly lovin' it - but here's the downside.

There are times when I 'lose' the ability to follow - I'm still learning the "signals" (rather than the moves themselves - I know only the leader needs to know those in theory). Also, I am not a small girl and I have insulted a number of men by casting aspersions on their physical strength :rolleyes: - yep, I know I'm supposed to take my own weight on a dip/lean and I can if it's led properly - but I will obviously be off-balance and I simply don't trust 'em to be able to catch me! If I'm not confident with their lead, then I will not be confident to let them dip me.

A nice link to my next comment - leading properly (maybe this'll bring the popcorn out. The following opinion is strictly that of the author blah blah blah.) Unlike women, beginner men are limited to the moves they know. And it seems to me that an awful awful lot of them get a bit over-excited when they have learned a few intermediate moves, and rather than trying to learn to lead a few moves well, just want to learn the largest number of moves possible - and completely forget all the good 'beginners' advice about leading - e.g. hand position/height. I have danced with very few partners who have wanted to practise the moves 'just done' in that intermediate class - unless they like them - which seems strange. A couple of guys have been keen to work with me on going over them a few times to 'fix' them. But it seems that many (not 'all' before you all start shouting "I don't do that", but many) have the attitude "ok, I've done the class, I know the moves, I'm bored with those ones now and want to do the ones I learned last week instead, even though I've actually forgotten them because I didn't 'fix' them".

This sounds slightly jaundiced and it's not meant to be - I'm so grateful to the many fantastic dancers who have helped get me to the stage where I'm recognising some of this stuff - and therefore also to the less-than-fantastic dancers who have given me the basis for comparison :D

What's other people's experience? (see ^^^^ up there somewhere amongst the clouds for the original question). It would be nice to hear about the quantum leap between intermediate and advanced as well. Tell me some nice stories - c'mon, share!

Please don't shoot me if this has been done to death, I don't want to be up to my armpits in popcorn again. Links appreciated - searches on appropriate subject matter came up with sooooooo many results :eek: but no actual "thread" with this title although there is plenty of relevant stuff in many of the results. Plus I want to talk about it. So there :D .

Trousers
22nd-June-2005, 11:39 PM
Wow Tension!

If you wanna practice the moves from the class just ask the bloke. Normally most blokes will be quite happy to be asked for their help - i would. Bu the the words "twice through and into Freestyle" can always be substituted with "you're under starters orders. . . .and you're off!" Freestyle after all being the real reason we are there (and for all you pendants) IMHO!

I as i'm sure all the guys do, get lots of ladies say "I've only been 4 times" or "I'm a beginner" my stock answer is always "So?"; but I lead and if my physical lead ain't cutting it I'll do verbal leads too (I do those anyhow not just beginners tho). It really is a case of if the lady wants to be lead you can take a rank beginner and have a great dance.

It sounds a little like u've just looked up seen the moon and decided you wanna move to Mars.

Where is the rush, take your time, enjoy what you do.

I've been at it 5 years now and I still think I'm crap, but some nights the floor is glass my partners spin like tops the music inspires me and it is heaven and I have a whale of a time and no-one can take that from me. That is mine . . . All mine . . . gollum!

bigdjiver
22nd-June-2005, 11:47 PM
In order to just learn to do a few moves well the beginner male has to learn to discard all of the intermediate moves that he does not want to assimilate yet. In most cases that is the entire intermediate class. That is why most men do not want to practise the class, they are still practising selected moves from the classes from weeks ago.

I think that the learning curve is just as steep for leaders as for most followers. The leaders are learning a smaller set of moves in greater detail, and the followers are at the mercy of the freestyle leader, learning a far greater number of moves in enough detail to follow (or avoid).

Andy McGregor
23rd-June-2005, 01:21 AM
I think there is a huge difference between the leaders and followers learning curves - they are very different. Followers can learn from their leaders. But leaders have got to learn by practicing what they've been taught. I do think that there is a point where, on average, leaders and followers will be at the same level of ability. But I think time it takes to reach that point has got more to do with where they dance than the time they've been dancing.

I think it's because followers learn from the leaders that they reach a ceiling when the leaders at their venue have got no more to teach them. Whereas the leaders reach their ceiling when they stop getting any more out of the lessons at the classes they attend. Maybe this is why people start travelling, to find leaders that can stretch them and teachers that have got more to give than the one they started with.

But, to pour water on NewKid's theory. It all assumes followers/leaders want to get better or care if the leaders/followers they started with have the same learning curve. In the main I think most people who attend MJ are there to have a good time. At one end of the scale there are people have a good time by becoming a better and better dancer, at the other end of the scale there are 'dancers' who have a good time by chatting at the bar and dancing to one or two tracks and watching, feeling slightly quizzical about the motivation of, the good/aspiring dancers sweating out there dancing to every track. I am one of the former group. And I'm sure I'm in a tiny minority.

So, my answer is that you should concentrate on your own enjoyment and not worry about comparative learning curves - and add toffee popcorn to the menu :flower:

MartinHarper
23rd-June-2005, 01:35 AM
I like "true intermediate". It could be a great insult: "Martin, you're the most intermediate dancer I've ever seen!". That kinda thing.
I do agree, though, that at early intermediate level, the learning curve is about equal. At some point beyond that, my feeling is that it's harder for followers than leaders, as it's a little harder to add style whilst still following than it is to add style whilst still leading. We've discussed before who has the hardest job (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4281).

-----


In order to just learn to do a few moves well the beginner male has to learn to discard all of the intermediate moves that he does not want to assimilate yet. In most cases that is the entire intermediate class.

This is very true. Besides, if I were to set out to "practice" MJ, the last thing I'd do is repeat the four moves from the class I'd just done. Ffrom a learning point of view, it would be far better for me to do some simple lead/follow exercises. Better for my partner too, I expect.
Another problem is that it is much harder to learn to lead a move when my partner has been primed for it by the preceding class. Chances are she'll anticipate or backlead. Another good trick is where I'm told off for leading the move wrongly, when I was trying to lead a simple variation on it.

In order to learn to lead a move, I must first practice it a couple of hundred times. By definition, during this time I will be attempting to lead a move that I cannot lead. It's not that I've forgotten how to lead it, it's that I never knew how to lead it. Similarly, learning to lead a move well involves leading it badly a few thousand times. It also involves leading other moves badly too, to get an idea of the differences and subtelties. I think this is sometimes lost on women who experience bad leads, and jump to the conclusion that their partner doesn't care about leading well. In reality, it's a long-term investment in a future of good leading. (no, really)

Andreas
23rd-June-2005, 01:41 AM
I pretty much agree with what Andy said/wrote.

In general, the learning curve of guys is a lot steeper, meaning they have to give it more of an effort to get anywhere. With the ladies, on the other hand, lies the responsibility not to get lazy. We all know how tempting it is to dance with a good lead and gently being 'forced' into the right position/move. Yet, there are a lot of ladies that take tis for granted and then complain about men that can't lead so well ... for whatever reason but mostly inexperience. Exactly these ladies will also be the ones who - knowingly or not - kill the self esteem of inexperienced guys.

So guys have a mission to practice their stuff, ladies have a mission to fuel their own motivation to practice. Both hard jobs to do.

:flower:

MouthoftheSouth
23rd-June-2005, 04:06 AM
Freestyle after all being the real reason we are there (and for all you pendants) IMHO!


I am not a pendant - I'm just hanging around :rofl:

ducasi
23rd-June-2005, 07:55 AM
... In order to learn to lead a move, I must first practice it a couple of hundred times. By definition, during this time I will be attempting to lead a move that I cannot lead. It's not that I've forgotten how to lead it, it's that I never knew how to lead it. Similarly, learning to lead a move well involves leading it badly a few thousand times. ... Yikes! I hope this is an exaggeration! During the class you maybe get to practice each move about a dozen times.

How do you get the couple of hundred practices of a move if you don't try it out in a freestyle? :confused:

ducasi
23rd-June-2005, 08:45 AM
I have no idea about the difference in learning curves between followers and leaders beyond that for men it is, at least initially, steeper, and for each person it varies.

A "leap of faith" is needed between "new intermediate" and "true intermediate". For women - trusting the lead. For men - not having to be a hot shot and know as many moves as possible. IMO, this is the 'true' division between beginner and intermediate - it's technique and attitude rather than the moves you know. For this recent intermediate, it's not about just knowing as many moves as possible, it's about knowing the moves which help during the intermediate class and having enough different moves to not get bored by my own dancing. Nothing to do with being a "hot shot".

I don't think it's fair that beginners & new intermediates are criticised for wanting to know lots of moves by people who already know them. As a UK intermediate I'd like to know all the "beginner" moves listed on this Australian list of moves. (http://www.cerocwiki.com/index.php?title=Moves) Unfortunately I'm being taught complex variations of Wurlitzers, when I don't know the basic move first.

I'd say a "true" intermediate is one who knows all the "classic" intermediate moves well enough to easily recognise and lead variations of them. I don't, so I'm still a "new" intermediate, still trying to find my feet (if you excuse the pun :devil: )

(By extension, an advanced dancer knows all the variations that the teacher will ever teach and is instead making up their own.)

Unlike women, beginner men are limited to the moves they know. And it seems to me that an awful awful lot of them get a bit over-excited when they have learned a few intermediate moves, and rather than trying to learn to lead a few moves well, just want to learn the largest number of moves possible - and completely forget all the good 'beginners' advice about leading - e.g. hand position/height. I have danced with very few partners who have wanted to practise the moves 'just done' in that intermediate class - unless they like them - which seems strange. This doesn't seem strange to me, but does seem to contradict what you just said. You say that an "awful awful lot" of beginners get over excited by new moves, but you find very few partners want to practice new moves (unless they like them.)

A couple of guys have been keen to work with me on going over them a few times to 'fix' them. But it seems that many (not 'all' before you all start shouting "I don't do that", but many) have the attitude "ok, I've done the class, I know the moves, I'm bored with those ones now and want to do the ones I learned last week instead, even though I've actually forgotten them because I didn't 'fix' them". If I like the moves from the intermediate class and think I've learnt them well enough, I will use them in the freestyle after. This meant that when I started intermediate classes I didn't use any of them. Last night I used all the moves just taught during the freestyle. I didn't use any moves from last week though, as I have forgotten them. :tears:

For me the answer to this problem is a partner I can practice with outside of the class, to learn the classic moves with, and revise the moves just learnt in class.

I haven't yet found a partner though. :tears:

Lory
23rd-June-2005, 09:07 AM
it seems to me that there is a point, somewhere around 'after a few intermediate classes' where men and women are pretty much even in terms of the steepness/difficulty of the learning curve.
In the first stage of learning, the lead and follow just copy exactly what's taught on stage, no more, no less :)

During the subsequent weeks though, the lead, armed with only the knowledge gained from his lessons, will at best, be able to put together the basic moves, plus one or two intermediates, in a variety of different combinations :o but in the same small space of time, the follow, might have be exposed to a 100 different moves a night, during the freestyles. :waycool:

None of the classes will have covered all of these moves but she's 'learning' how to do her job, 'follow' with every dance.

Therefore, I believe, the only week the lead and follow will be at the same stage is the first week! (obviously a year or two down the line things will even out again)

And just to be controversial! :really: ... IMHO there's a point early on, in the learning curve of the 'follow', which I believe is actually 'hindered' by attending classes.

MartinHarper
23rd-June-2005, 09:19 AM
Yikes! I hope this is an exaggeration! During the class you maybe get to practice each move about a dozen times.

How do you get the couple of hundred practices of a move if you don't try it out in a freestyle? :confused:

It's not an exaggeration for me. Other folks may learn moves faster. Thus, I get my couple of hundred practices by trying moves out in freestyle - but not the freestyle immediately after the class.

Trousers
23rd-June-2005, 09:20 AM
I am not a pendant - I'm just hanging around :rofl:
:rofl:

Hmmmm that will teach me for posting and running without proof reading. But I think y'all got my gist.

David Bailey
23rd-June-2005, 09:25 AM
I'd say a "true" intermediate is one who knows all the "classic" intermediate moves well enough to easily recognise and lead variations of them. I don't, so I'm still a "new" intermediate, still trying to find my feet (if you excuse the pun :devil: )

Well, by that criterion, so am I...


(By extension, an advanced dancer knows all the variations that the teacher will ever teach and is instead making up their own.)
:eek: Looks like I'll never get to advanced then :tears:

Slightly more seriously, IMO knowing hundreds of moves doesn't make you an advanced dancer.


If I like the moves from the intermediate class and think I've learnt them well enough, I will use them in the freestyle after.

In an intermediate class, if I see a move I like, I will definitely practise it and, more importantly, play around with it to see if I can deconstruct / reconstruct it, maybe taking the parts I like and leaving the others alone. I won't practise the routine, ever (unless asked), because that's not helpful in assimilating moves into my (tiny) repertoire.

If I don't like any of the moves (quite possible), I won't use them - again, unless asked.

On the question of learning curve - dance is a conversation (I know, cliche), both people have to learn to talk well, so IMO the learning curve is the same. OK, the things you learn as followers / leaders are different, but the difficulty level is the same - you're both dancing the same dance. Well, hopefully :)

Tessalicious
23rd-June-2005, 09:33 AM
In the first stage of learning, the lead and follow just copy exactly what's taught on stage, no more, no less :)

During the subsequent weeks though, the lead, armed with only the knowledge gained from his lessons, will at best, be able to put together the basic moves, plus one or two intermediates, in a variety of different combinations :o but in the same small space of time, the follow, might have be exposed to a 100 different moves a night, during the freestyles. :waycool:

None of the classes will have covered all of these moves but she's 'learning' how to do her job, 'follow' with every dance.

Therefore, I believe, the only week the lead and follow will be at the same stage is the first week! (obviously a year or two down the line things will even out again)

And just to be controversial! :really: ... IMHO there's a point early on, in the learning curve of the 'follow', which I believe is actually 'hindered' by attending classes.

Interesting point, I would say that in a way this is quite true - since although some classes will teach the follower what to do if certain leads are given (depending on how intuitively any individual follows leads like a block or signals like the pretzel or secret) but don't teach the technique of following; however hard some leads in the class try to lead properly and prevent the follower from anticipating the move, sometimes it just isn't possible. This frustrates leaders so much sometimes that they seem to stop bothering to lead in the class, which means that when they later dance the move in freestyle (if they bother) they don't really lead it and then look on in surprise as the lady falls flat on the floor/backleads into something she was expecting (delete as appropriate).

So to deal with this problem of lack of cooperation between partners, I was wondering if classes could be split, perhaps during one workshop slot at a weekender, so that a lead-only class and a follow-only class run at the same time, where the basic concepts of lead and follow, tension, grip etc are studied more closely with whichever group. Obviously you'd need some demo dancers to circulate the room, like taxis in beginners classes, who can give feedback on what is working and what isn't. Is this something that has ever been done/ever will be in the future? Does anyone else think this might help?

bigdjiver
23rd-June-2005, 09:56 AM
... (By extension, an advanced dancer knows all the variations that the teacher will ever teach and is instead making up their own.) ...The great photographer Cartier-Bresson said "Its the ones I throw away". You do not need too many words to write a great love song, the trick is to use the right words at the right time and place to the right woman, and it is all the better if the words are your own.

ducasi
23rd-June-2005, 10:12 AM
(By extension, an advanced dancer knows all the variations that the teacher will ever teach and is instead making up their own.) Please don't misunderstand what I'm saying here – I'm not defining what makes someone an advanced dancer here, just saying that the advanced dancer will implicitly know pretty much all the moves and variations.

But we're not talking about advanced dancers, which I why I put that as an aside in parenthesis.

Lynn
23rd-June-2005, 10:45 AM
And just to be controversial! :really: ... IMHO there's a point early on, in the learning curve of the 'follow', which I believe is actually 'hindered' by attending classes.I knew there was something good about there being no classes in NI! :rofl:

Seriously, aside from weekenders etc, I have been at very few 'intermediate' level classes and almost no classes at all for over a year - most of what I have learnt over the past year has been from simply freestyling and following.