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View Full Version : First part of the first move. Back right foot or left foot for followers



Andy McGregor
22nd-June-2005, 05:00 PM
There is some debate over which foot to go back with in the first move if you're following. This is the very first step back for the follower. So here is a poll.

clevedonboy
22nd-June-2005, 05:03 PM
Either?

Is it a trick question?

Andy McGregor
22nd-June-2005, 05:10 PM
Either?

Is it a trick question?No, you've got to move one foot or the other when you do that step back. Which one should it be?

Lou
22nd-June-2005, 06:08 PM
And once we've agreed (yet again) to disagree on this one - can we please sort out the footwork to the Hokey Cokey? :flower:

Piglet
22nd-June-2005, 07:02 PM
When I started dancing I stepped back on my left, but after many workshops, I've found it makes more sense to now step back on my right, so that's what I do :)

Jive Brummie
22nd-June-2005, 07:38 PM
Step back on either foot and step forward with both (bringing them parallel...not jumping...before anyone asks how you step forward with both!), this way your weight is evenly disributed over both feet which makes the weight transfer on the twist out far easier...IMO :wink:

LMC
22nd-June-2005, 07:44 PM
I think left is easier to be honest. But on that first 'step back' you don't KNOW that it's a first move coming in freestyle - and I find all the other moves easier if I go back on the right first. So I always step back on my right foot.

So it stands to reason that if it's a first move as the first move then I will have stepped back on my right foot. To start with, it felt odd - because I always had to shuffle around a bit so I could get my weight right to pivot on my left and back with my right on beat 3 (at least I think it's beat 3, I rarely remember beat counts because I'm not leading :innocent: :whistle: ) but I seem to have got that sorted now - I can follow a 'first move' and small talk if my partner wants AND smile all at the same time now. That's an achievement, 'cos I'm blonde.

LMC
22nd-June-2005, 07:45 PM
Step back on either foot and step forward with both (bringing them parallel...not jumping...before anyone asks how you step forward with both!), this way your weight is evenly disributed over both feet which makes the weight transfer on the twist out far easier...IMO :wink:

:yeah: (JB posted while I was carefully composing my epic to be ON topic for a nice change)

David Bailey
22nd-June-2005, 08:01 PM
I can follow a 'first move' and small talk if my partner wants AND smile all at the same time now. That's an achievement, 'cos I'm blonde.
Hey, it's more than I can do, and I'm grey :(

Lou
22nd-June-2005, 09:49 PM
It depends. :D If it's a Monday or Tuesday I'll step back on my left. On Thursdays I step back on my right. On Fridays and Saturdays it'll mostly be the right, but sometimes left. Does it matter? Both work. :D

Jive Brummie
22nd-June-2005, 10:10 PM
what happens if you step back on your partners left foot...and is it easier than stepping back on your partners right foot? :sick:

DavidB
22nd-June-2005, 10:42 PM
what happens if you step back on your partners left foot...and is it easier than stepping back on your partners right foot?Never managed to find out. After stepping on one of Lily's feet, the response was "If you do that again I'll make sure you never step again"

MartinHarper
23rd-June-2005, 12:05 AM
I step back left, so obviously that's correct and the only possible way to do it. :)
Some folks kick-ball-change instead of stepping back, which means that their weight is on the opposite foot to the one it initially looks like from their body angle. So that's fun.

Jazz_Shoes (Ash)
23rd-June-2005, 12:07 AM
I had to think about this one, but I think I usually use my left foot. But now you've all gone and confused me :what: is it suppossed to be the right or left, or does it not matter? I know that it what this poll is for, but is there an actual answer?

Andy McGregor
23rd-June-2005, 12:44 AM
IMHO the footwork in most MJ goes right, left, right, left, etc, etc. It's difficult to go left, left, etc. Assuming that the follower has to go back with the right foot on count 5 you must go back with the right foot to start off otherwise you need to do a ball-change skippy thing to change feet at some time.

Here's how I see it.

1 - step back right
2 - step back left (to join right)
3 - step forward right
4 - step forward left (to join right)
5 - step back right (pivoting on left)

I'm not sure where the skippy thing comes in at LeRoc. And, I think it's the skippy thing that makes LeRoc different*.

*and wrong :devil:

El Salsero Gringo
23rd-June-2005, 12:44 AM
Before I answer, do you mean boy-left or girl-left?

Andy McGregor
23rd-June-2005, 12:45 AM
Before I answer, do you mean boy-left or girl-left?I mean follower, boy or girl. And it could be follower-right.

El Salsero Gringo
23rd-June-2005, 12:51 AM
I mean follower, boy or girl. And it could be follower-right.Like I said, boy-left, or girl left? Oh, never mind, Andy...

Yliander
23rd-June-2005, 02:39 AM
Here's how I see it.

1 - step back right
2 - step back left (to join right)
3 - step forward right
4 - step forward left (to join right)
5 - step back right (pivoting on left)

I have always been taught to step back left to start with so for a first move my footwork goes like this

1 - step back left
2 - step back right(to join left)
3 - step forward left
4 - step forward right (to join left)
5 - open out pivoting on the left - weight going onto right

Lou
23rd-June-2005, 07:12 AM
1 - step back left
2 - step back right(to join left)Oooh! Never done this one! :D

Lovely as it is, why do you effectively step back twice on beats 1 & 2. Same question to Andy. Surely the leader would have started leading you forward for beat 2?

(Assuming beats are musical beats - beat 5 is where the follower turns out and steps back on her right foot - equivalent to count 3 in MJ counts*)

*unless you're in Nailsea where it would be count 2. :rolleyes: Don't ask....

Lou
23rd-June-2005, 07:18 AM
I step back left, so obviously that's correct and the only possible way to do it. :)Young Paduan, strong you are in the ways of the Foot...

El Salsero Gringo
23rd-June-2005, 07:54 AM
Oooh! Never done this one! :D

Lovely as it is, why do you effectively step back twice on beats 1 & 2. Same question to Andy. Surely the leader would have started leading you forward for beat 2?

(Assuming beats are musical beats - beat 5 is where the follower turns out and steps back on her right foot - equivalent to count 3 in MJ counts*)

*unless you're in Nailsea where it would be count 2. :rolleyes: Don't ask....
To step on each beat, the Australian way is.

Like this the El Salsero Gringo way way is:

1. A step with the Left...
2. ...and a jump to the Right
3. You put your hands on her hips....
4. and bend your knees in tight
5. You do the pelvic thrust,
6. It really drives you insay-yay-yay-yay-yay-yane
7. Lets do the First Move again!

Lou
23rd-June-2005, 09:04 AM
7. Lets do the First Move again!It's sooo dreamy.....

Bad Gringo! You've put me in Magenta mode...

There are a number of people, like Nigel Anderson, who have told me "right foot back" (and I have to admit it feels darn comfortable at times), however, sie wollen mein Herz am rechten Fleck, doch seh ich dann nach unten weg da schlägt es links.

I vote left!
:D

MartinHarper
23rd-June-2005, 09:29 AM
1 - step back left
2 - step back right(to join left)
3 - step forward left
4 - step forward right (to join left)
5 - open out pivoting on the left - weight going onto right

So, is "4" a tap step where you don't put any weight on it? Or do you do an extra step between 4 and 5 so that your weight is on the left foot and you can pivot on it for 5? Or something else?

Yliander
23rd-June-2005, 09:54 AM
So, is "4" a tap step where you don't put any weight on it? Or do you do an extra step between 4 and 5 so that your weight is on the left foot and you can pivot on it for 5? Or something else?4 - isn't a tap step & there is no extra step.

You put your weight onto your right foot and then transfer weight back to left foot to do the pivot

Andy McGregor
23rd-June-2005, 10:03 AM
4 - step forward right (to join left)
5 - open out pivoting on the left - weight going onto rightThis is the bit that I don't get. You step forward with your right foot and put your weight onto it and then you need to step back with your right foot - but you can't because you've got your weight on it :confused: And you need to pivot on your left foot - but you can't because it's unweighted :confused: :confused:

So you need to, at some point, to do the LeRoc shuffle to get the weight onto the left foot to pivot on it to step back with the right when the leader turns you out on count 5. My question is why go to all that trouble when you could just start with a step back on the right foot? And it really is the foot that's led back when the leader pushes the follower's right hand back ...

Of course you can do the first move commencing with a step back on the left. But it makes it a more difficult, and different, move. So my question is, why, why, why?

p.s. Didn't you prefer me when I was getting threads sent outside?

Gadget
23rd-June-2005, 10:08 AM
Shouldn't the follower step back on whichever foot they are led to step back on?

And shouldn't that depend on where their weight was on the prior move?

Lynn
23rd-June-2005, 10:08 AM
I don't tend to think much about what my feet are doing - they seem to have a mind of their own...but I think I always step back right as a follower. Could be because I did some salsa about the time I started learning MJ, maybe its because the lead is leading me to step back with my right hand...I don't know but stepping back right just feels 'right' and it works for me.

Are there moves where starting with a step back right as a follower would cause problems? (My feet would just figure something out by themselves anyway if it did I suppose).

Lou
23rd-June-2005, 10:23 AM
Shouldn't the follower step back on whichever foot they are led to step back on?Ahhhh.. Gadget. A very good question. :)

But do leads ever/always lead that step back with a push in MJ?

MartinHarper
23rd-June-2005, 10:32 AM
4 - isn't a tap step & there is no extra step.

You put your weight onto your right foot and then transfer weight back to left foot to do the pivot

Ahh - I would call this transfer of weight from the right foot to the left foot a "step", but that's just a terminology thing. I remember asking the same question the last time we had this discussion, now I think of it.
I found this footwork pattern a little rushed, as the woman has to do a complete weight transfer, a full 180° pivot, and another weight transfer (back onto the right foot) in a single beat - between "4" and "5".

Lou
23rd-June-2005, 10:38 AM
I remember asking the same question the last time we had this discussion, now I think of it.
We could do with a link..... :whistle:

cicamica
23rd-June-2005, 10:42 AM
All these rights and lefts are so confusing and still i don't get it why it is a problem............. :eek:

For the followers:

If you stepped back on the left at first (and transferred the weight on that foot) then you take a step forward on your right. I know it sounds bizarre as the right foot is already at the front but you can still step a bit forward on that foot to step in for the second beat and you join the other foot so they are parallel and the weight is equally distributed on each foot!! On beat 3 you can pivot and turn out to step back on your right foot.

If you step back on your right foot (and transfer the weight on it) then you step forward on the left and join the other foot parallel once again your weight is distributed equally and you can pivot and step back with the right!!

So it really does NOT matter which foot you step back on!! :flower:

Zebra Woman
23rd-June-2005, 10:54 AM
IMHO the footwork in most MJ goes right, left, right, left, etc, etc. It's difficult to go left, left, etc. Assuming that the follower has to go back with the right foot on count 5 you must go back with the right foot to start off otherwise you need to do a ball-change skippy thing to change feet at some time.

Here's how I see it.

1 - step back right
2 - step back left (to join right)
3 - step forward right
4 - step forward left (to join right)
5 - step back right (pivoting on left)

I'm not sure where the skippy thing comes in at LeRoc. And, I think it's the skippy thing that makes LeRoc different*.

*and wrong :devil:

I agree mostly with Andy :whistle: :innocent:

I think his steps are how I was taught to dance at LeRoc :wink:.

About a year later I started doing the 'skippy foot thing' at the start of most moves. I don't know for sure what's going on...I learned it by dancing parallel to a woman who was doing it at Ceroc :whistle: and copying her feet (I have never seen it taught in a lesson although I have met lots of women who have wanted to learn it ). I try to do it very very close to the ground so the skip bit smooth and imperceptible.

This what I think my feet do these days:

1 - I end up going back on my left foot by doing a right kick ball change (weight seems to go left, right, left, with tiny point of the right foot along the floor with right foot)
2 - Step onto left in place
3 - step forward right
4 - step forward left (to join right)
5 - step back right (pivoting on left)

Loads of women seem to do the same as me with their feet, I'm not sure I've described it totally accurately :sick: . Any ideas ladies?

Lou
23rd-June-2005, 11:10 AM
At its most simple:

1. Step back on right
2. Pause
3. Replace weight on left, bring feet together and start to...
4. Pivot on left
5. Step back on right

Bristolian:

1. Step back on left
2. Pause
3. Replace weight on right
4. Transfer weight to left & pivot
5. Step back on right

Walking:

1. Step back on right
2. Replace weight on left
3. Bring feet together, replace weight on right
4. Transfer weight to left & pivot
5. Step back on right

There's no LeRoc shuffle. There's a step on the "and" beat, but that's not important, as there are 2 in the walking style. Now can I go back to sleep, please Andy? :na:

Andy McGregor
23rd-June-2005, 12:32 PM
About a year later I started doing the 'skippy foot thing' at the start of most moves. I don't know for sure what's going on...I learned it by dancing parallel to a woman who was doing it at Ceroc :whistle: and copying her feet (I have never seen it taught in a lesson although I have met lots of women who have wanted to learn it ). I try to do it very very close to the ground so the skip bit smooth and imperceptible.I've never noticed ZW doing this skippy foot thing on her step back so she must be very good at it and use it some of the time, but not all of the time. I want to learn the skippy foot thing for my following - and I'm going to be pestering ZW to show me how to do it - as opposed the the things I usually ask her to show me (and do to me :wink: ).

Now we're dissecting the moves I think the skippy/kicky foot thing needs a thread of it's own. So I've started one here. (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=128227#post128227)

But, getting back to the first move. It is still my contention that the "First Move (tm) (Basic)" should be initiated with a step back on the right foot for the follower. It's led that way and doesn't require a skip or shuffle to pivot on the left and go back with the right at count 5. So far on this thread I've not seen an example of how the basic first move works with a step back on the left.

Lou
23rd-June-2005, 12:39 PM
So far on this thread I've not seen an example of how the basic first move works with a step back on the left.
The post above the post above this one, Andy. HTH :)

Piglet
23rd-June-2005, 12:39 PM
OMG! I think I'm doing the First Move totally wrong!!! Aaaaaargh!

Don't care though, cos my way works for me! :D

Yliander
23rd-June-2005, 12:51 PM
This is the bit that I don't get. You step forward with your right foot and put your weight onto it and then you need to step back with your right foot - but you can't because you've got your weight on it :confused: And you need to pivot on your left foot - but you can't because it's unweighted :confused: :confused: step forward with right foot - this brings feet together - transfer weight to left foot - pivoting on it opening out - at the end of the pivot/opening out you right foot is behind and weight is transfered to it.


So you need to, at some point, to do the LeRoc shuffle to get the weight onto the left foot to pivot on it to step back with the right when the leader turns you out on count 5. no no LeRoc shuffle (what ever that is) required


Of course you can do the first move commencing with a step back on the left. But it makes it a more difficult, and different, move. So my question is, why, why, why?still the same move - not more difficult just different

one thing I have noticed teaching this move is that - when we get the girls doing it correctly (as we teach it in Aus) the girls are less likely to anticpate being opened out - and follow the guys lead - either of a basic first move or of one of the umpteen first move variation

clevedonboy
23rd-June-2005, 12:52 PM
I said it was a trick question

Yliander
23rd-June-2005, 12:53 PM
OMG! I think I'm doing the First Move totally wrong!!! Aaaaaargh!

Don't care though, cos my way works for me! :DIf it ain't broke don't fix it :wink: :na: :flower:

Cruella
23rd-June-2005, 12:55 PM
Oooh! Never done this one! :D

Lovely as it is, why do you effectively step back twice on beats 1 & 2. Same question to Andy. Surely the leader would have started leading you forward for beat 2?

(Assuming beats are musical beats - beat 5 is where the follower turns out and steps back on her right foot - equivalent to count 3 in MJ counts*)

*unless you're in Nailsea where it would be count 2. :rolleyes: Don't ask....
:yeah: I too am confused. :what: Surely it's step back on 1, forward on 2 then pivot on 3, to face on 4,turnout on 5, step back on 6, return 0n 7, step back on 8. :confused:

bigdjiver
23rd-June-2005, 01:10 PM
I still cannot see any problem. Whatever foot I step forward on when I bring my other foot to its side I can either keep my weight on the standing foot, balance it between the two, or transfer it to the other foot. I have complete control on how much weight I transfer, and the time difference between just a tap and a complete weight transfer is neglible in the context of normal MJ. Like they keep telling us, it does not matter very much which foot you step back on.

If it does flow better one way or another I am wondering if I, or other leads, unconciously tailor the next move to which foot the lady steps back on.

Andy McGregor
23rd-June-2005, 01:36 PM
step forward with right foot - this brings feet together - transfer weight to left foot - pivoting on it opening out - at the end of the pivot/opening out you right foot is behind and weight is transfered to it. So, in Yliander's and Lou's (Lou posted at the same time as I was writing my previous one) of the first move;

1. Step back with the left
2. Bring right back to join left
3. Step forward with the left
4. Step forward right then to join left then step in place to get weight on left foot (LeRoc Shuffle).
5. Go back right (pivoting on left).

Why complicate a perfectly simple move with the need for a step in place?*

And to get to the reason I started this thread. I think this version of the basic first move creates a habit that makes followers who've got it more difficult to lead. When I lead a partner back whilst holding his/her right hand I expect them to go back with the right foot. But, if I'm leading with my left hand and my partner's been to a LeRoc class and learnt the first move he/she will probably go back with the left foot. When I led the follower to go back with the right foot I had a move planned, usually one that required them to follow my lead - which was to step back with the right foot. So now I've got a partner who's got their weight on their left foot rather than the right and my plan has been thwarted :tears:

And it gets worse, those followers who learnt the back left first move get into the habit of doing a LeRoc shuffle/step-in-place to change feet. This makes dancing smoothly difficult because they are often doing their shuffle when you're not expecting it/haven't led it - and you can even feel that shuffle through the connectiontension between you an your partner which makes the dance feel a bit wobbly. Even more frustratingly it's impossible to dance double time with a follower who's already peppering her dancing with step-in-place which is already double time.

*which I'm calling the LeRoc shuffle.

N.B. The 'skippy foot thing' Zebra Woman described is not what I'm talking about. That skip produces the same affect as a step back with the right on commencing the first move.

Lou
23rd-June-2005, 01:40 PM
So, in Yliander's and Lou's
Yliander's & Lou's aren't the same, Andy. :)

Donna
23rd-June-2005, 01:45 PM
Never managed to find out. After stepping on one of Lily's feet, the response was "If you do that again I'll make sure you never step again"

MEEOOOWWW!!! :D :D Have to say that's so funny!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Gadget
23rd-June-2005, 02:34 PM
I am now of the opinion that the "step back" is not actually part of the 'first move'(tm) - it is only a preperation that can be substituted for any movement that gets the follower to the lead's right hand side in a L-R hand hold.
Therefore the question is redundant and I go for the fourth option: none of the above.
:na:

Purple Sparkler
23rd-June-2005, 02:53 PM
If we're talking which foot moves, then when I'm following on the first move I MOVE my right foot, then transfer my weight back onto it briefly before I'm led back in.

To me it makes no sense to step back on your left foot if you're following- it looks much smoother if you use your right and avoids any risk of leg-entanglement, surely?

Andy McGregor
23rd-June-2005, 05:17 PM
Yliander's & Lou's aren't the same, Andy. :)Lou is right. When I've watched people taught at LeRoc in Bristol they go back with their left, then their right - then they step in with their left and do a sort of skip on the way in that has the same affect as the step in place described by Yliander. But it's done while travelling. And it's still not really a nice easy first move (basic) for teaching beginners (IMHO). The question is, why make it more difficult when there is such an obvious easy alternative. It's a beginners move so it should be the easiest version to learn.

N.B. It seems to me that we can't even agree on how the first move should be done. How can anyone expect the independents to get together. I got the silver medal in the advanced section of the UK LeRoc champs last October and I think I'd fail the LeRoc teaching exam because, as far as they're concerned, I don't even do/teach the first move properly :whistle:

Lou
23rd-June-2005, 05:53 PM
Lou is right. Lou is always right.


When I've watched people taught at LeRoc in Bristol they go back with their left, then their right - then they step in with their left and do a sort of skip on the way in that has the same affect as the step in place described by Yliander. :rofl: No they don't. They step back with their left, then replace their right foot. Then there's a weight transference to the left, to start the pivot, and then they step back on the right. Trust me, Andy, it's really simple. :)


How can anyone expect the independents to get together. Somehow I suspect that variations on the First Move footwork is at the bottom of the list of why that'll never happen. :D


I got the silver medal in the advanced section of the UK LeRoc champs last October Congratulations. :flower:


and I think I'd fail the LeRoc teaching exam because, as far as they're concerned, I don't even do/teach the first move properly :whistle:I also suspect Mr Eastman is far more tolerant than you're giving him credit for. Have you actually asked him? :whistle:

I'm bored of discussing the first few steps of the First Move. Can we move onto the Yo-Yo, please?

Andy McGregor
23rd-June-2005, 06:41 PM
I also suspect Mr Eastman is far more tolerant than you're giving him credit for. Have you actually asked him? :whistle:The reason I'm not doing the exam is not because I think I'd fail it (does this sentence make sense? :confused: )

But I do think we've established that there are many ways to teach/do the first move. There's the right way and there's the others :whistle:

Lounge Lizard
23rd-June-2005, 08:01 PM
:yeah: I too am confused. :what: Surely it's step back on 1, forward on 2 then pivot on 3, to face on 4,turnout on 5, step back on 6, return 0n 7, step back on 8. :confused:well that way works for me

Andy McGregor
24th-June-2005, 12:12 AM
well that way works for meWe're talking about the step count, I think, rather than the dancing count*.

*We all know a few of these :devil:

Minnie M
24th-June-2005, 12:47 AM
.. the dancing count........
does he only dance at night :whistle: and avoids the daylight :rofl:

Lou
24th-June-2005, 07:01 AM
But I do think we've established that there are many ways to teach/do the first move. There's the right way and there's the others :whistle:
This might seem obvious to you, but I haven't figured it out yet. :confused: Which way is the right way, Andy? :)

Minnie M
24th-June-2005, 08:13 AM
This might seem obvious to you, but I haven't figured it out yet. :confused: Which way is the right way, Andy? :)
Why should there be a right or wrong :what: dancing should be about dancing to the music and enjoying yourself, if it feels right, go for it.

Some people need continued dance lessons, some just need some to get them started and some never need them, they feel the music and copy. Franky Manning has never had a dance lesson, nor did Fred Astaire and the famous American swing dancer Dawn Hampton said "The only Count I know is Count Basey"

Life's too short to worry which foot you are moving :eek:

Lou
24th-June-2005, 08:59 AM
Ahhh... but Minnie, I'd worry if I didn't have something to worry about... :nice:

Andy McGregor
24th-June-2005, 10:44 AM
Ahhh... but Minnie, I'd worry if I didn't have something to worry about... :nice:And it's too hot to discuss something that really matters :flower:

BUT, just to raise the temperature of the debate I thought I'd post what the Jive Addiction side says about LeRoc footwork;


Observations:

Plodding to the beat does not work. the lady cannot just step on each half-count or each count, she must vary the timing to be on the correct foot for each turn. This is particularly noticeable between a clockwise and anticlockwise turn, but also at the start of a move that starts with a left foot back and proceeds into a clockwise turn.

Advantages:

Links between moves will put the lady on the correct foot, requiring no bodged footwork.
There is a better chance of compatibility - but only with other LeRoc dancers.
Ultimately, the person may reach a higher potential at dancing.

Disadvantages:

The lady must learn her footwork from the start and some may not be looking for such a hobby and give up.
The man must think more about when to use returns based on the following move to ensure she is always correctly footed. LeRoc ladies will generally be wrong footed by Ceroc dancers.
It may not be obvious on which foot a lady should be on for some moves, so men may lead wrongly.
This dance is less flexible on footwork.

Conclusion:

Much more of a strict dance with steps defined, but the advantage is worth it, but only if both obey the rules.

It's this bit that I found most interesting "LeRoc ladies will generally be wrong footed by Ceroc dancers". Having started dancing LeRoc in Brighton I don't think of myself as doing Ceroc, but no wonder I have trouble dancing with LeRoc dancers from Bristol :tears: On the other hand, I have no problems with the footwork of Ceroc dancers, they go where you lead them and move the foot you've led :clap:

Does anyone remember that thing with magnets for school? You put the N & S poles of 2 magnets together and they attract but try to put together the N and the N and they squirm and to anything to stop going where you're trying to put them. Well that's what it sometimes feels like when I'm trying to lead the footwork of some Britol LeRoc dancers - whilst other Bristol LeRoc dancers follow like a dream - especially the gang that travel the M4 to Hipsters. Maybe they make that long pilgrimage the length of the M4 because they have trouble dancing with everyone else in Bristol :wink:

eastmanjohn
24th-June-2005, 10:57 AM
I got the silver medal in the advanced section of the UK LeRoc champs last October and I think I'd fail the LeRoc teaching exam because, as far as they're concerned, I don't even do/teach the first move properly :whistle:

No Andy, you wouldn't necessarily fail the exam because we are very open to people who have a consitent approach that they can put across to their pupils.

I've thought about all this stuff for years. There is no right answer. There are essentially 2 different ways.

1. the follower transfers weight on every beat (including during the turns)
2. the follower doesn't step every beat, there are some points where it is unnecessary to take 2 steps where 1 will do

I have heard that Carol Haines has been teaching a reduction in the amount of footwork (or steps) for a First Move for the follower in her style class for followers. I would guess that she is essentially following version 2 as opposed to version 1.


Version 1 I think goes a little like this (in MJ counts)

and step weight onto left foot (maybe with a movement back)
1 step back on right
and step forward left
2 step forward right (to meet left)
and step and pivot out on the left
3 step back onto right
and step and turn in front of lead on left foot
4 step right foot to join left foot now facing the lead
and start your turn by transfering weight onto left foot
5 continue the turn on the right foot
and finish the turn stepping onto your left foot (now facing the lead again)
6 step back right foot
and start the return on the left foot
7 transfer weight onto the right foot (continuing to turn)
and the step weight onto left foot (now facing)
1 step back right foot



The "LeRoc" or minimised footwork goes like this. Note that there is movement happening on most of the "and" counts here and your are in position on the count. In the version above there is often movement across the count.

and weight on right foot
1 step back left
and step forward right
2 bring left foot to meet right (sometimes a subtle tap of the foot to mark this beat)
and transfer weight onto left foot as pivot out
3 step back weight on right foot
and step forward left foot turning in towards partner
4 bring right foot to meet left (no weight transfer yet)
and turn by stepping and "spinning" on right foot
5 use left foot as a break to finish the turn (now facing)
and step weight onto left foot
6 step back on the right foot
and return on left foot
7 use the right foot to break
and weight onto right foot
1 step back left

In version 2 because the turns can be faster (done as a "supported" spin on one foot as opposed to 2 steps while rotating) there is the opportunity for pauses and changes of speed. When every beat of the music is a step then the footwork could become monontonous. Variety is then down to the follower adding their own styling (which is good for experienced dancers, but can be intimidating for the beginner).

Both versions work, it's just a different feel, and guess what, you can combine the 2 and that might depend on subtleties of your partners lead from the hand, the music you are dancing to or your mood at that particular time. There is no right answer.

If we asked Deep Thought this question it would come up with an answer but would then say we need to define the question better!!

Oh, and I should add, it all depends on what happended at the end of the previous move. Same applies to the question of whether there should be returns or not, which is not an unrelated topic.

Lynn
24th-June-2005, 11:16 AM
BUT, just to raise the temperature of the debate I thought I'd post what the Jive Addiction side says about LeRoc footwork; Jive Addiction? Is there another Jive Addiction from the weekenders/holiday people?

(Sigh - mentioning that reminds me of Spain, and looking at the rain outside makes me wish I was back there! :tears: )

Lou
24th-June-2005, 11:28 AM
Jive Addiction? Is there another Jive Addiction from the weekenders/holiday people?
He meant Jiveoholic.... :flower:

Lou
24th-June-2005, 11:36 AM
It's this bit that I found most interesting "LeRoc ladies will generally be wrong footed by Ceroc dancers". Having started dancing LeRoc in Brighton I don't think of myself as doing Ceroc, but no wonder I have trouble dancing with LeRoc dancers from Bristol :tears:
:tears: Awww..... Although any problems you have with me are probably down to the fact that I'm trouble, as opposed to my footwork. ;)

I experimented with the lovely MartinHarper last night. My conclusions are:
1. When dancing with a Ceroc™ lead, it's tricky to stick to Bristol footwork, as he may well lead you to step back on a different foot. But that's OK.
2. When deliberately sticking to Bristol footwork, and dancing normally, it still works OK.
3. When the leader deliberately tries to wrong foot you - it breaks! :rofl:

No big surprises there, then... :whistle:

Andy McGregor
24th-June-2005, 11:42 AM
:tears: Awww..... Although any problems you have with me are probably down to the fact that I'm trouble, as opposed to my footwork. ;)
I don't think I've had trouble dancing with Lou. I think that maybe our outfits clashed a bit :innocent:

Lynn
24th-June-2005, 11:44 AM
He meant Jiveoholic.... :flower: Ta

Still thinking about Spain though...(work colleague has just got back from a week there).

Andy McGregor
24th-June-2005, 11:46 AM
He meant Jiveoholic.... :flower:Sorry :blush: It's very hot and my brain has fried. What is this "First Move" I have spoken of :confused:

Daisy Chain
24th-June-2005, 12:02 PM
Why should there be a right or wrong :what: dancing should be about dancing to the music and enjoying yourself, if it feels right, go for it.


Life's too short to worry which foot you are moving :eek:

:yeah:

I was told ages ago that if the man is holding the lady's left hand, she should step back with her left foot. If he's holding her right, she should step back with her right foot. Something about open shapes?

Dunno if this is right, but it seems to work for me. However, I have noticed that if the man does a sneaky hand change at the last moment, my feet do a flying change all on their own :eek:

Daisy

(An Airborne Little Flower)

Gadget
24th-June-2005, 12:18 PM
Oh, and I should add, it all depends on what happended at the end of the previous move. Same applies to the question of whether there should be returns or not, which is not an unrelated topic.
Ammendment:
Neither the step, or the return are part of the "first move" - they are constructs made up depending on the moves immediatly prior/proposed.
The movements that actually constitute the "first move" are the side-to-side, twist out, and reverse to collect side-to-side again. The only reason that the step and return are included at the start/end is to introduce a common element with every other move and "cerocise" it. It makes the move more 'familure' and gives people a comfort zone to return to.
The "Step" is only taught because the "Return" is taught: There is a 'common' place where you know the dancer will be before they perform this move.

Yes, steps and weight transfer are fairly important - but they are common to the beginning of almost every move: why should a first move be special? How can the follower anticipate "oh, this is the step back for the first move" and change her footwork to match? Why should they? The first "clue" that it's a first move should be that they are beside the lead with their right arm on the lead's right shoulder and the lead's right arm as a barrier infront of them.

{... all IMHO o course :whistle:}

Lou
24th-June-2005, 12:40 PM
I have heard that Carol Haines has been teaching a reduction in the amount of footwork (or steps) for a First Move for the follower in her style class for followers. I would guess that she is essentially following version 2 as opposed to version 1.
I did that Carol Haines workshop. It was meant as a style tip for those followers who use the standard "walking" pattern, and reduces the number of steps for those followers who choose to step back on the right to begin. But, yes, the timing is very similar to version 2.

Except that I disagree with the timings that you've written:


and weight on right foot
1 step back left
and step forward right
2 bring left foot to meet right (sometimes a subtle tap of the foot to mark this beat)
and transfer weight onto left foot as pivot out
3 step back weight on right foot

I thought we actually did the "step forward right" on 2.

The and contains the "bring left foot to meet right (sometimes a subtle tap of the foot to mark this beat and transfer weight onto left foot as pivot out"

So it goes 1, 2 and 3. That way, the significant movements are on the downbeat. Step back, step in, step back. That also ties in nicely to all the right foot variations.

However, I'm now totally unsure of my timings! :confused:

eastmanjohn
24th-June-2005, 01:06 PM
I thought we actually did the "step forward right" on 2.

The and contains the "bring left foot to meet right (sometimes a subtle tap of the foot to mark this beat and transfer weight onto left foot as pivot out"

So it goes 1, 2 and 3. That way, the significant movements are on the downbeat. Step back, step in, step back. That also ties in nicely to all the right foot variations.



If you count out loud and call all the "ands" as well you'll find that you're actually coming forward on the right foot on the "and" between 1 and 2. Try it. I'm right :wink: .
Count yourself in with "and 7 and 8" and you'll find you actually do your first movement on the "and" before 1. As I said, the movements happen on the "and".

Lou
24th-June-2005, 01:46 PM
If you count out loud and call all the "ands" as well you'll find that you're actually coming forward on the right foot on the "and" between 1 and 2. Try it. I'm right :wink: .
Oh - you're always right, John! :D All Bristol people are!

JoC
24th-June-2005, 01:59 PM
When I started dancing I stepped back on my left, but after many workshops, I've found it makes more sense to now step back on my right, so that's what I do :)


Me too. A few moves seem to be easier from a right foot step back, e.g going straight into a cross over step to followers left (can't think of the others off hand). Because you don't know what move is about to happen I feel more ready for these moves.

Actually come to think of it, I'm not sure anyone has ever led me in freestyle into a move where it mattered, perhaps I am in fact readying myself for a move that may not even exist.

I have now argued myself into a position of confusion and ambiguity and am definitely not worth listening to or argueing with.