United we stand

[Lounge Lizard]

With Rebel Roc becoming Ceroc should the independants join together for the benefit of the dancers and organisers
or
would we become a poor example of Ceroc

what is the benefit from doing this or will it dilute the product

Independants do not need qualificaions to start up (some do not even have insurance)
but independants can step beyond the Ceroc model and perhaps offer a good alternative.

My views on this can be found throughout the forum, I do have a reason for my interest in the debate (which I hope develops) - but please don't use it to have a go a Ceroc, but would bringing all the smaller dance organisations together affect Ceroc in any way.
peter

[Andy McGregor]

My own opinion is that this is a very worthy objective. But, I believe it would be difficult to achieve. I think this thread presents no opportunity to have a go at Ceroc as an organisation. It's a compliment to Ceroc that this thread was created.

IMHO Ceroc would welcome the fusing of us independents into a cohesive force. It would make us a target that's easier to hit as we would be better defined and easier to combat as a consequence.

My own opinion is that the existence of independents benefits the consumer as it means there is choice and competition. However, I do believe there should be a way of accrediting dance teaching to ensure that there is a quality standard. But should it be done by an organisation that currently teaches followers to step back on the left foot in the first move?

[Trousers]

My own opinion is that the existence of independents benefits the consumer as it means there is choice and competition. However, I do believe there should be a way of accrediting dance teaching to ensure that there is a quality standard. But should it be done by an organisation that currently teaches followers to step back on the left foot in the first move?
:rofl:

some things just tickle you don't they

[philsmove]

As a consumer

I think it best if the independents stay just that “independent”


There are lots of advantages for them if they coordinate with each other

But that’s all

There is a federation to which some local Bristol organisers belong

But as a consumer there is no noticeable difference between those who are members of the federation and those who are not

Personally I’m not bothered if the teacher has a paper qualification

I’m not too bothered about insurance ether

Most insurance policies are designed to protect the organiser rather than the consumer. if you are worried about having an accident, you should take out your own personal cover

[Lou]

But should it be done by an organisation that currently teaches followers to step back on the left foot in the first move?
Of course. Is there another foot? :whistle:

I like the independents. And the independence. I like the way they have complete control over their own organisation, without the input of a shadowy figure pulling the strings. An independent can look at other organisations & use their best practices without becoming a faded copy of the original. An indpendent has the ability to align and ally itself with other organisations if it chooses to do so. It would be highly unlikely they would choose to pull together in such a manner as LL suggests.

[Gus]

An independent can look at other organisations & use their best practices without becoming a faded copy of the original. An indpendent has the ability to align and ally itself with other organisations if it chooses to do so.To date, I think that the problem with the non-Ceroc organisations has been the variability of quality. Although I wouldn't say that ALL Ceroc venues provide a quality product, at least they have good direction as to what they should achieve and are helped to do so. My experience of a fair few independants (noticable exception maybe LeRoc) is that they try to become "me-too" Ceroc look alikes but without the training or expertise (IMHO).

HOWEVER, I think that a UK map which is totaly painted Orange (Ceroc) would be a BAD thing. Competition is a GOOD thing and must be maintained.

[Andy McGregor]

Of course. Is there another foot? :whistle: Not at my classes. I like to keep it simple. There's the left foot on the end of the right leg and the left foot at the end of the left leg. And LeRoc ladies go back with the wrong left foot - IMHO :wink:


It would be highly unlikely they would choose to pull together in such a manner as LL suggests. :yeah:

[bigdjiver]

There are retail chains that have a branch in virtually every town of substance. Independent competition still exists. IMO the map has tp be "painted orange", there should be no Ceroc free areas. There will always be room for other multiples and independents. Dance is about music and style, and there are infinite variations, It is impossible for one organisation to suit all.

[Jive Brummie]

My own opinion is that this is a very worthy objective. But, I believe it would be difficult to achieve. I think this thread presents no opportunity to have a go at Ceroc as an organisation. It's a compliment to Ceroc that this thread was created.

IMHO Ceroc would welcome the fusing of us independents into a cohesive force. It would make us a target that's easier to hit as we would be better defined and easier to combat as a consequence.



ho hum...I agree with Andy...again (must stop doing this he'll think I like him :flower: ).

There's nothing wrong in providing competition to what could otherwise become a monopoly. I feel very strongly about monopolies of any kind. I think they end up becoming a victim of their own success and ultimately things tend to become rather stale for the paying customer... I think this is purely because the company falls into the way of thinking that they don't have to try quite so hard anymore as they're the only ones 'around' doing what they do....inturn less effort is made and the 'punters' lose out in quality.

Always go with quality rather than quantity (said like a true short arse!)

I think it'd be good for all parties if there was a large independant modern jive dance organisation. It'd be like price wars between Tesco's and Safeway...while they sort out their differencs, trying so hard to be better than the other...the real winner is the customer...and when monopolies form, I think that the customer often get's forgotten about :tears:

Doesn't really make sense to me.....but then I'm simple! :wink:

[Lou]

I think it'd be good for all parties if there was a large independant modern jive dance organisation. It'd be like price wars between Tesco's and Safeway...while they sort out their differencs, trying so hard to be better than the other...the real winner is the customer...and when monopolies form, I think that the customer often get's forgotten about :tears:
Not all parties! It might be good for those areas on the map that are already painted orange, as it'd provide more choice & competition. However it would result in less choice for those of us where we already have a healthy number of competing and co-existing clubs, if they were to merge. :)

[Yliander]

.... teaches followers to step back on the left foot in the first move?umm and the problem with this is???

[Daisy]

There are retail chains that have a branch in virtually every town of substance. Independent competition still exists.

I beg to differ. I get bored stupid going to every town and finding the same old thing in the same old shops. Where is the differentiation and variety. How can we express ourselves as individuals if we're only ever 'spoon fed' one type of product? :sad:

I have absolutely nothing against Ceroc, after all it's where I started, but it is nice to be able to choose to go to something different , if that's what you want. :nice:

Hopefully Ceroc will continue to diversify within itself and offer choice as part of the Ceroc product. From what I have observed mike Ellard is not opposed to diversity. :clap:

Keep the independent flag flying but try to standardise the quality of product they are offering. No money for 'old rope' nonsense please. :whistle:

[Gadget]

I beg to differ. I get bored stupid going to every town and finding the same old thing in the same old shops. Where is the differentiation and variety. How can we express ourselves as individuals if we're only ever 'spoon fed' one type of product? :sad:So every Ceroc class is the same? Every teacher teaches the same thing in the same way to the same level?
Yes, there may be the same shops in every town - but in the Ceroc system, each shop has the same basic range, same posters in the window, same layout. But each store also has a completley different range of stuff in addition to these! It's like putting in a different gourmet chef into every BurgerKing who can prepare their own menu.

Stagnation is bad: But monopoly does not automatically equate to stagnation, the deterioration of services/products or squeeze of prices for same product/service.

[Gus]

Stagnation is bad: But monopoly does not automatically equate to stagnation, the deterioration of services/products or squeeze of prices for same product/service.One word: MICROSOFT

[David Bailey]

Stagnation is bad: But monopoly does not automatically equate to stagnation, the deterioration of services/products or squeeze of prices for same product/service.
:yeah:
I don't believe that, if every other independent MJ venue / organiser / teacher disappeared*, Ceroc would suddenly become a low-quality dance experience. If it did, people just wouldn't go there - leisure activities are much more optional than eating. Well, for most of us :)

There's a lot of regional and national variety within Ceroc as it is with the franchise model - I'd imagine this would continue or even increase in the absence of any competition.

* Hmmm, maybe I shouldn't give some people ideas...

[Andy McGregor]

umm and the problem with this is???That it requires a shuffle weight-change thing so the girl can go back with her right foot when the guy takes his left hand down to the ladies hip to turn her out. Lou was shocked when she realised this at a workshop earlier this year. The first move is a beginners move. All beginners moves require two musical beats for each weight transfer to make the moves easy and suitable for beginners. A first move where the girl goes back with her left foot doesn't work to that timing without a LeRoc shuffle. Besides that, there are two other reasons for this, the first is that you're leading the lady back with her right hand so you're leading her right leg and the second reason was given to me by Nigel Anderson and it's got something to do with every other swing dance going back with the right.

It doesn't mean LeRoc is wrong. Just that it's teaching a different dance to the rest of us where one of the beginners moves is harder to learn and the lead isn't obvious.

N.B. To those people in the cheap seats armed with popcorn and strawberries, I'm sorry I can't be more combative in this post. It's too hot and I can see the other guy's point of view - must be getting soft ...

[Lou]

The first move is a beginners move. All beginners moves require two musical beats for each weight transfer to make the moves easy and suitable for beginners. I disagree.


N.B. To those people in the cheap seats armed with popcorn and strawberries, I'm sorry I can't be more combative in this post. It's too hot and I can see the other guy's point of view - must be getting soft ...I agree.

[Andy McGregor]

I disagree.With moves being made easy for beginners?


I agree and I want to have Andy's babies.Quite understanable :innocent:

[David Bailey]

Quite understanable :innocent:
I now have an image of a stick-rabbit figure, moving around and banging a drum. Scary thought...


One word: MICROSOFT
Linux.

[Minnie M]

I now have an image of a stick-rabbit figure, moving around and banging a drum........
ah........... the penny had dropped ........... the 'drummer' issue :o feel silly now :blush:

And I was going to get all serious and mention that I divorced a drummer - good musician but couldn't dance, had to get rid of him :rofl:

[Lou]

- good musician...
I thought you said you'd married a drummer :whistle:

[Will]

There are retail chains that have a branch in virtually every town of substance. Independent competition still exists. IMO the map has tp be "painted orange", there should be no Ceroc free areas. There will always be room for other multiples and independents. Dance is about music and style, and there are infinite variations, It is impossible for one organisation to suit all.
:yeah:
I totally agree. Ceroc everywhere is the best possible situation in my opinion. It is important that they are seen to the outside non-dancing world as a genuine nationwide company to help them get our dance a higher profile and more people to get into it. HOWEVER, I wouldn't want to see all the indepedants go under. Whilst some just try to copy Ceroc, many provide a service that is different to what Ceroc provides. They keep people on the circuit who might otherwise vanish. I believe Gus' Cool Catz was of this kind of vision. We are following this ethos to a degree at Jango too.

It's also a good point that Competition breeds a better product for the customer as well as better value for money!

[Andy McGregor]

I believe Gus' Cool Catz was of this kind of vision. We are following this ethos to a degree at Jango too.

It's also a good point that Competition breeds a better product for the customer as well as better value for money!I'm posing this question in the assumption that nobody at the Borg reads the Forum. Does Will teach for Ceroc and run Jango? Does he have a foot in both camps? And does he go back left or right?

[Jon L]

I'm posing this question in the assumption that nobody at the Borg reads the Forum. Does Will teach for Ceroc and run Jango? Does he have a foot in both camps? And does he go back left or right?

I don't think Will runs jango Andy, in any case I think you'll find he's teaching it at the monster jive cocktail this weekend at Bisley, which is a ceroc event

Also there are other teachers at this weekend, who teach on the Camber/Bognor circuit.

I think one of the good "changes" of ceroc is that it is starting to realise the value of respected teachers at it's venues, slowly but surely. If this is the case it's to be welcomed.

[Will]

I'm posing this question in the assumption that nobody at the Borg reads the Forum. Does Will teach for Ceroc and run Jango? Does he have a foot in both camps? And does he go back left or right?
Actually I jointly run Jango (that's not a drug reference by the way), and am a Ceroc Affilliate. So I guess in one sense I do have a foot in both camps.

People on here often seem to paint Ceroc as the bad guys, but infact I think Ceroc is the best thing that has happened on the UK dance scene in living memory. Believe me, if you don't go around trying to steal their dancers, giving out your flyers in their venues, leafleting their venue car parks and generally slagging them off, they can be very ammenable people.

Indeed, we sometimes get dancers who've never done Ceroc / MJ and regularly tell them about Ceroc and where their closest venue might be. This helps us as our classes do tend to assume a certain level of Ceroc so we can then focus in on teaching the Tango side and how to fuse the two together.

As for which foot I step back on - it depends on the move I'm about to do.

[DavidB]

As for which foot I step back on - it depends on the move I'm about to do.No - it depends on which one Kate tells you to move.

[Jon L]

No - it depends on which one Kate tells you to move.
:rofl:

[Simon r]

No - it depends on which one Kate tells you to move.
:rofl:
unlike you dave who just does not mve at all

[Andy McGregor]

No - it depends on which one Kate tells you to move.And how far she tells you to move it.

And, I agree with everything Will has said about Ceroc. I have only 2 very specific things against Ceroc. They stopped Nigel and Nina teaching at Fleet and, AFAIK, far too many of their venues still allow smoking next to the dance floor :whistle:

[Andy McGregor]

:rofl:
unlike you dave who just does not move at allHe does move his feet when he gets on and off the dance floor. But I hear he's ordered a trolley so he can be wheeled on and off.

For sale. David Barkers old dance shoes. Three years old, soles like new - slightly beer splashed uppers :devil:

[DavidB]

He does move his feet when he gets on and off the dance floor. But I hear he's ordered a trolley so he can be wheeled on and off.The trolley is for the drinks to be brought to the dance floor.

The fork lift is for me to get to the floor in the first place.

[Jon L]

And how far she tells you to move it.

, AFAIK, far too many of their venues still allow smoking next to the dance floor :whistle:


Yes and I agree but I gather you have had problems with this in some independent venues - you can't hold it against Ceroc generally. Indeed all credit to Annalisa who runs ceroc Surrey - when she acquired another franchise she banned smoking immediately.