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Heather
22nd-June-2005, 08:17 AM
Why is it that the most controversial threads( those where there is some heated debate) always seem to end up in the 'Outside' section of the Forum?
Do the moderators think that the Forum members are such sensitive little souls that they should not be exposed to their contents?
Who decides that a thread is so.ooo...ooo bad that it should be relegated to the 'outside'. Or do the contributors complain and then it is removed?
Can someone please enlighten me?
The Fletch thread and the dancing DJ thread were among the most interesting on the Forum at the moment and both have been removed! :sick:

Thanks,
:hug:
Heather,
XX

David Bailey
22nd-June-2005, 08:51 AM
Why is it that the most controversial threads( those where there is some heated debate) always seem to end up in the 'Outside' section of the Forum?
Err, 'coz that's what it's for? I.e. an area, away from the normal set of things, where people can flame each other at will.


Who decides that a thread is so.ooo...ooo bad that it should be relegated to the 'outside'.
That's why they're called moderators... It's a thankless job, and it requires some judgement, which is always going to be subjective and sometimes controversial.

For each time, it's a question of whether the moderators feel a thread can be "pruned" by editing / deleting individual posts, or feel that the whole thread has gone bad, and needs to be uprooted and moved.

It's a shame that in the latter case, the good goes with the bad, but that's where the judgement comes in.


The Fletch thread and the dancing DJ thread were among the most interesting on the Forum at the moment and both have been removed!
I had no problems with the Dancing DJ thread being Out-ed; it had mutated a long way from my original question, and had degenerated IMO to a bit of a slanging match. Dunno about the Fletch thread, Andy may well have an opinion :)

Another point - you can of course still post in the Outside area, there are no more restrictions than normal. And some people might prefer it Outside if they really want to let rip... :whistle:

Gadget
22nd-June-2005, 09:03 AM
Personally, I think that they should be removed from the forum: I think that they add nothing to it. The posts have degraded into discusing how & what to post and questioning motives of posters. This is a Dance/MJ/Ceroc forum - I want to read about that, not some locker-room gossip, chinese whispers and speculations of hidden agendas. :mad:
You like that stuff? Go watch Neighbours or EastEnders.

Dance Demon
22nd-June-2005, 09:07 AM
Hmmm......I've tried three times to post on that thread, and my post gets referred to the moderators, then doesn't appear :confused: .....Post doesn't contain swear words, or personal insuts, or anything inflamatory.......but doesn't get past the moderators for some reason...............

Zebra Woman
22nd-June-2005, 09:12 AM
I was very disappointed that the dancing DJ thread went outside. I think the discussion over whether DJ's should attempt to dance and DJ and how they go about it was interesting and had a lot more mileage in it.

Once the thread has turned into a slanging match and been moved outside there is less chance of a sensible discussion continuing from that point. And that is a pity. I know some people enjoy personal arguments on the Forum, that would be Andy and who else? :devil:

The Fletch thread may has well have started outside, I could see from the first post exactly where that one was going. :sick:

Tiggerbabe
22nd-June-2005, 09:19 AM
but doesn't get past the moderators for some reason...............
Your post is there now John, unfortunately when you posted it, I was asleep (and I'm guessing the other moderators were too) and I didn't log onto the forum until 9am this morning.

You can still post to a thread that is outside but all posts there are referred to the moderators and you may have to wait before it appears.

Guests to the forum cannot view the *outside* and *upstairs* forum threads, but the threads are still accessible to members.

Lorna
22nd-June-2005, 09:32 AM
Personally, I think that they should be removed from the forum: I think that they add nothing to it. The posts have degraded into discusing how & what to post and questioning motives of posters. This is a Dance/MJ/Ceroc forum - I want to read about that, not some locker-room gossip, chinese whispers and speculations of hidden agendas. :mad:
You like that stuff? Go watch Neighbours or EastEnders.


:yeah:

Personally, I am fed up of people using this forum as an excuse to slag people off. I have sent PMs to a few people now not for any reason other than to make them aware that posting in this manner can be damaging to their reputation.

I know that I read these posts and think twice about what sort of individual is horrible enough to do this. Not the sort of person that I would want to know or associate with for fear that I may be next in line. :sad:

I live in a dream world most of the time and those who do know me will verify this but in this little world of mine I try to live by one simple rule - treat people the way you would want to be treated yourself. Simple but effective!!
Not always easy but worth a go.

I don't understand why anyone would dedicate any of their time writing horrible stuff about people they clearly don't like or respect. Perhaps it stems from some other emotion. I don't know. Anyway it's not big and not clever. :angry:

Lotsa love Lorna x-x

Lynn
22nd-June-2005, 09:40 AM
Once the thread has turned into a slanging match and been moved outside there is less chance of a sensible discussion continuing from that point. And that is a pity. :yeah:

I like debate - but why does it have to get personal?

DavidB
22nd-June-2005, 10:05 AM
Only just realised that threads moved outside don't appear in the New Posts, or in any other searches.

I have no objection to this at all - I think I prefer it this way. But is it possible to post a new locked thread just saying that it has been moved?

foxylady
22nd-June-2005, 10:19 AM
Only just realised that threads moved outside don't appear in the New Posts, or in any other searches.



Hmm strange, Outside threads appear in my 'new posts' search when updated.. :confused:

David Bailey
22nd-June-2005, 10:21 AM
Your post is there now John, unfortunately when you posted it, I was asleep (and I'm guessing the other moderators were too) and I didn't log onto the forum until 9am this morning.
Slacker... :whistle:

Plus; you sleep? :eek:


You can still post to a thread that is outside but all posts there are referred to the moderators and you may have to wait before it appears.
Oh right, I wondered about that too - thanks for explaining.


I was very disappointed that the dancing DJ thread went outside. I think the discussion over whether DJ's should attempt to dance and DJ and how they go about it was interesting and had a lot more mileage in it.
Yes - it was a wonderful idea wasn't it? :innocent:
One flaw in the system is that there's no easy way to select the "good bits" from a thread; short of creating two threads (one for slanging and one for discussing) - but even then, there's no guarantee of quality.

OTOH, there's nothing stopping anyone from starting a new thread of "I still want to discuss DJs dancing" or something... :grin:


Once the thread has turned into a slanging match and been moved outside there is less chance of a sensible discussion continuing from that point. And that is a pity.
Perhaps, if a thread carried on and got more sensible outside, it could be moved back in after a cooling-off period, if people wanted to discuss it still?


The Fletch thread may has well have started outside, I could see from the first post exactly where that one was going. :sick:
:yeah: I was amazed it lasted so long - slow news day I guess...


I know that I read these posts and think twice about what sort of individual is horrible enough to do this. Not the sort of person that I would want to know or associate with for fear that I may be next in line. :sad:
...
I don't understand why anyone would dedicate any of their time writing horrible stuff about people they clearly don't like or respect. Perhaps it stems from some other emotion. I don't know. Anyway it's not big and not clever.
If it's any consolation, some people are far more, err, intense, online than in real life - the whole "virtual identity" thing, plus the anonymity of Web posting, tends to turn people a leetle bit more opinionated than they may otherwise be. Not me, of course :innocent:

Andy McGregor
22nd-June-2005, 10:22 AM
I was very disappointed that the dancing DJ thread went outside. I think the discussion over whether DJ's should attempt to dance and DJ and how they go about it was interesting and had a lot more mileage in it.

Once the thread has turned into a slanging match and been moved outside there is less chance of a sensible discussion continuing from that point. And that is a pity. I know some people enjoy personal arguments on the Forum, that would be Andy and who else? :devil:

The Fletch thread may has well have started outside, I could see from the first post exactly where that one was going. :sick:I agree with everything ZW has said to a greater or lesser extent. My guess is that the dancing DJ thread went ouside because individual dancing DJs were named - that meant it had got personal :tears:

The Fletch thread started off personal and I would have started it in the Outside area if I could have. ZW has implied, I think, that I'm the only one who enjoys personal arguements on the forum. I think the fact that the Reality of Fletch thread has been viewed over 2,000 times proves differently.

I also agree with ZW about there being less chance of a sensible discussion once a thread has gone outside. But who said we always want a 'sensible discussion?

.. squashed strawberry anyone? :devil:

Gus
22nd-June-2005, 10:22 AM
:I don't understand why anyone would dedicate any of their time writing horrible stuff about people they clearly don't like or respect. Perhaps it stems from some other emotion. I don't know. Anyway it's not big and not clever. :angry:
My view has always been that the Forum is as much a place for arguing a point of view as it is for the exchange of information ( and unfortunately for banal chit chat). The problem for "exchanges of viewpoints" is that fine line between debate and entrenched argument. There have been a number of cases recently where these debates have got a little personal and respect for the debaters has been lost (ok, maybe guilty of that myself sometimes). The problem is that given the same facts, two people can legitimately come to radically different view points depending on their culture, experiences and background knowledge.

The one thing that I found attractive. About the original debates is that once the smoke had cleared then people used the PM system to rebuild bridges. Given the nature of some of the debates I'm not sure that that is possible. I find it curious that the Forum has got through the debates re "is Ceroc evil", "are competitions bad" etc with a greater understanding yet the "is UCP dangerous" debate seems to stir up real animosity and I'm not sure that it moves things forward.

Are there some debates that need to be finished before they start (censorship) or is it the way they are debated that needs to change? As Fletch said, should there be a Q&A to guide newbies?

David Bailey
22nd-June-2005, 10:29 AM
Only just realised that threads moved outside don't appear in the New Posts, or in any other searches.
:confused: Really? I thought they did - still, I could be wrong...


I have no objection to this at all - I think I prefer it this way. But is it possible to post a new locked thread just saying that it has been moved?
:yeah: It'd be handy to see some form of "banner" posting by a moderator in the middle of the thread, saying "I've moved this outside". With or without reasons; ideally with, but it should generally be obvious.

This would be especially useful for those of us who mainly use the New Posts facility to browse the Forums, as we don't usually keep track of what thread is in what area.

DavidB
22nd-June-2005, 10:37 AM
Hmm strange, Outside threads appear in my 'new posts' search when updated.. :confused:On my 'New Posts', the oldest posting is dated 22 June 2005 02:51AM. But there was a posting on the Fletch thread dated 22 June 2005 08:08AM.

Maybe Franck has implemented the Ignore Thread feature I asked for, and merged it with an ESP interface??? :worthy: :worthy:

Dance Demon
22nd-June-2005, 10:45 AM
Your post is there now John, unfortunately when you posted it, I was asleep (and I'm guessing the other moderators were too) and I didn't log onto the forum until 9am this morning.



Asleep!!!!!.....you mean moderators sleep?......jeez, yet another myth destroyed..... :wink: ...........Thanx Sheena, that explains things :hug:

Andy McGregor
22nd-June-2005, 11:10 AM
Personally, I am fed up of people using this forum as an excuse to slag people off.

Anyway it's not big and not clever. :angry: I think Lorna has shown us how easy it is to 'slag people off'. She writes a post which starts by saying she's fed up with people using the Forum to 'slag people off' - and then she ends her post by doing that very thing.

I wouldn't have pointed it out but she has rather requested it by saying this;

treat people the way you would want to be treated yourself. :innocent:

LMC
22nd-June-2005, 11:21 AM
sweet or salted?

David Bailey
22nd-June-2005, 12:21 PM
sweet or salted?
BOTH!

I'm just so sick of people ignoring my repeated demands for mixed flavours. It's terrible that a bunch of grownups can't accommodate this perfectly reasonable request and have to divert the topic into ridiculous abuse. Or even sensible abuse.

I'm now going to the park for an hour (or more) of well-earned (!) sunshine, sod the hayfever, I expect my 'corn to be waiting for me when I return. You've been warned.

David Bailey
22nd-June-2005, 12:24 PM
As Fletch said, should there be a Q&A to guide newbies?
Yep, and there is, it's called the FAQ (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3458) - is that what you meant?

LMC
22nd-June-2005, 12:32 PM
BOTH!

I'm just so sick of people ignoring my repeated demands for mixed flavours. It's terrible that a bunch of grownups can't accommodate this perfectly reasonable request and have to divert the topic into ridiculous abuse. Or even sensible abuse.

hands over a bucket of each - mix yer own. Then pick your toys up and put them tidily back in your pram :non-existent stern waggy finger guy:


Yep, and there is, it's called the FAQ - is that what you meant?

It also says perfectly clearly at the top of the forum list that if this is your first visit you should read said FAQ. It might be worth adding 'Frequently Asked Questions' in brackets just to make certain as not everyone understands the acronym (hard though that is to believe for those of us who have been messing round on the internet since 1742).

Also, I do NOT want to re-open an argument, but I am sure that I'm not the only one who sent a friendly PM with some 'tactful advice for a newcomer'

CJ
22nd-June-2005, 01:15 PM
Personally, I think that they should be removed from the forum: I think that they add nothing to it. The posts have degraded into discusing how & what to post and questioning motives of posters. This is a Dance/MJ/Ceroc forum - I want to read about that, not some locker-room gossip, chinese whispers and speculations of hidden agendas. :mad:
You like that stuff? Go watch Neighbours or EastEnders.

Sometimes I like burger; sometimes I like steak. Sometimes I even like a little montage prepared by the chef to challenge my taste buds and expand my horizons. :waycool:

Wouldn't it be nice if there was one restaraunt which catered for all those tastes and moods? :)

Please note, I didn't say I liked poison.

The DJ thread started as a serious discussion and shifted monumentally in a process I still don't understand. :confused:

The Fletch thing?? :confused: :tears: :what:

What I am saying is:

We have lots of forumites, lots of view points, lots of different moods on different days. Just as an MJ night provides lots of different things, so should the forum.

If you pass a conversation @ a party night on politics, you don't have to join in: away and dance!! Similarly, if there are threads that don't interest you:
DONT BLOODY READ THEM!

A little more live and let live??

Gus
22nd-June-2005, 01:29 PM
Yep, and there is, it's called the FAQ (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3458) - is that what you meant?I think I meant more a guide to Net Ettiquette than technicalities

Gadget
22nd-June-2005, 01:42 PM
The DJ thread started as a serious discussion and shifted monumentally in a process I still don't understand. :confused:Yup. but....

if there are threads that don't interest you:
DONT BLOODY READ THEM!how can we tell they contain "inappropriate" material untill we have read them? The DJ thread being a prime example - the talk on the methods of DJing was entertaining, but when it degenerated into personal attacks, it became like an argument between some members of your family that could be heard by folk in the street. {...Perhaps your family is a little better behaved/quieter than mine :blush:}

I don't get it: we've discussed politics and religion and even the existance of God while keeping civil and having some livley debate.
The problem only seems to arrise when folks start putting forward views/opinions in terms of "We" instead of "I" and referring to people in the third party instead of addressing them directly.
{This is just my observation on the way language is used within the 'problem' posts: with my reputation on using English, I may be mistaken. :wink:}

DavidB
22nd-June-2005, 02:22 PM
Only just realised that threads moved outside don't appear in the New Posts, or in any other searches.They have reappeared. Now I can ignore them knowing I haven't missed anything.

David Bailey
22nd-June-2005, 02:48 PM
The DJ thread started as a serious discussion and shifted monumentally in a process I still don't understand. :confused:
Me neither. Although if I had to pick one line where It All Started To Hit The Fan, it'd be "Thank you for your suggestion. When my DJing has hit an all-time slump, I'll come to you for your next one.", which in hindsight could possibly have been a leeetle bit undiplomatic? :whistle:

Having said that, the reaction / overreaction thing from people then just went into overdrive for a while, so it's not one person's responsibility, just one of those things... (cowers and hides)


A little more live and let live??
:yeah:


They have reappeared. Now I can ignore them knowing I haven't missed anything.
You could say that about any thread... :whistle:

But that thread seems to have got more civilised now - should we take it out of the naughty room, now it's learned its lesson, if it promises to behave?

CJ
22nd-June-2005, 03:15 PM
Me neither. Although if I had to pick one line where It All Started To Hit The Fan, it'd be "Thank you for your suggestion. When my DJing has hit an all-time slump, I'll come to you for your next one.", which in hindsight could possibly have been a leeetle bit undiplomatic? :whistle:


Thank you for your honesty. However, I would offer the "I suggest that until you are perfect, using your chosen medium of playing, then you keep those opinions less public." sentence as an alternative.

Sparkles
22nd-June-2005, 04:19 PM
The problem only seems to arrise when folks start putting forward views/opinions in terms of "We" instead of "I" and referring to people in the third party instead of addressing them directly.
{This is just my observation on the way language is used within the 'problem' posts: with my reputation on using English, I may be mistaken. :wink:}

:yeah: I seem to remember a whole thread (started by me) dedicated to this topic... :whistle:
As soon as someone takes a topic away from the general and into the personal things start getting messy - it's a shame that has to happen because some interesting debate is being missed out on.
S. x :flower:

stewart38
22nd-June-2005, 04:26 PM
That's why they're called moderators... It's a thankless job, and it requires some judgement, which is always going to be subjective and sometimes controversial.

:whistle:

Main point for me is why has it changed so much in last 3/4 months

I posted for a good 2 years and maybe got 2 things deleted (and agreed with)

Now must be 5 or 6 things in a short while ?? :mad:

David Bailey
22nd-June-2005, 04:32 PM
Thank you for your honesty. However, I would offer the "I suggest that until you are perfect, using your chosen medium of playing, then you keep those opinions less public." sentence as an alternative.
Oops, yes. I didn't spot that one - that'll teach me not to read the whole of people's posts; your comment just stuck out for some reason. My apologies, that's the New Start Of Where It Went Bad.

Oh and :flower: :blush:


Main point for me is why has it changed so much in last 3/4 months

I posted for a good 2 years and maybe got 2 things deleted (and agreed with)

Now must be 5 or 6 things in a short while ?? :mad:
:eek: That's as long as I've been a member.

Nahh, just a coincidence, I'm all sweetness and light me :)

Andy McGregor
22nd-June-2005, 04:47 PM
I posted for a good 2 years and maybe got 2 things deleted (and agreed with)I'm not sure you had as many as 2 things agreed with :devil:

stewart38
22nd-June-2005, 04:59 PM
I'm not sure you had as many as 2 things agreed with :devil:

I still think the ash trays idea at Hammersmith champs was a good idea ?

On serious point just think its not easy being a moderator but do think m*** th**** are mod****** now da**

Maybe a good think maybe a bad thing

Lory
22nd-June-2005, 05:00 PM
Main point for me is why has it changed so much in last 3/4 months

I posted for a good 2 years and maybe got 2 things deleted (and agreed with)

Now must be 5 or 6 things in a short while ?? :mad:
Are you sure you mean deleted, not just moved to a more appropriate thread?

Magic Hans
23rd-June-2005, 09:35 PM
...
Guests to the forum cannot view the *outside* and *upstairs* forum threads, but the threads are still accessible to members.

:clap: :clap:
Which, for me, is the crux and purpose of both *upstairs* and *outside*. I wouldn't want guests and visitors to the forum witnessing any manner of "hanging out of dirty washing" or any infighting. The chances are, it would give them a baised view of the forum community.

However, I also don't like the idea of posts being deleted, unless there is some real, serious legal threat to forum. It reminds me too much of censorship, which then can open questions regarding the agendas of the forum administrators/moderators.

I remember seeing that a particular user had been deleted, as that user account had been found to be one that was being used by another user, purely to create disharmony. The posts themselves remained, but with a visible comment noting that the user had been deleted and the reason.

Personally I feel that these mechanisms (Deleting users, *outside* and *upstairs*) work very well on this forum, if I had a gripe, it would be that I would like to see them used , just a little more.

!an

David Bailey
23rd-June-2005, 09:40 PM
Personally I feel that these mechanisms (Deleting users, *outside* and *upstairs*) work very well on this forum
:yeah: and :worthy: to moderators.


if I had a gripe, it would be that I would like to see them used , just a little more
Not having been around long enough to form an opinion, I won't comment.

My only gripe is that there's no transparent automatic "inform" mechanism to tell people when something's been done in this way. E.g. a "THIS THREAD HAS BEEN OUTED" posting or something...

Tiggerbabe
24th-June-2005, 07:51 AM
My only gripe is that there's no transparent automatic "inform" mechanism to tell people when something's been done in this way. E.g. a "THIS THREAD HAS BEEN OUTED" posting or something...
Comment noted David, Franck has asked that in future we leave a *re-direct* in the area where the original thread started.
Wording is along the lines of "this thread has been moved and can now be viewed in the *outside/upstairs* area of the forum."

John S
24th-June-2005, 01:04 PM
I think Lorna has shown us how easy it is to 'slag people off'. She writes a post which starts by saying she's fed up with people using the Forum to 'slag people off' - and then she ends her post by doing that very thing.
Lorna is quite capable of looking after herself, and may have done so privately, I don't know. However, I'll do the gallant knightly thing and come to her aid anyway!

I may be wrong, but what I took from her message was her concern about the Forum being used for individual and personal attacks/abuse. She expressed that in a general, non-specific way without identifying anyone, and I believe it is quite wrong to accuse her of doing what she is concerned about.

Personally I haven't read any of the threads that have been mentioned here, because my life's full enough without reading anything that the poor moderators have had to endure and throw in the bin outside - I trust them to do their thankless job.

David Bailey
24th-June-2005, 01:15 PM
Comment noted David, Franck has asked that in future we leave a *re-direct* in the area where the original thread started.
Wording is along the lines of "this thread has been moved and can now be viewed in the *outside/upstairs* area of the forum."
Good grief; I don't expect people to actually listen to me.... :eek:

How about "Double rep points for anyone with the initials DJ"? I'm sure it's a valid request...

Oh, and thanks. :flower:

azande
24th-June-2005, 01:18 PM
~snip~

:yeah:

Also



I think Lorna has shown us how easy it is to 'slag people off'. She writes a post which starts by saying she's fed up with people using the Forum to 'slag people off' - and then she ends her post by doing that very thing.

has reinforced my belief that this guy is going to stay in my ignore list for a very long time!

Andy McGregor
24th-June-2005, 02:30 PM
has reinforced my belief that this guy is going to stay in my ignore list for a very long time!And my belief that "if you're not close to the edge you're taking up too much room". Azande is my barometer of edgyness. If he starts reading me I'll know I've lost mine.

And if Martin Harper starts reading me and responding I'll know he's no longer a softie :devil:

Clive Long
24th-June-2005, 02:33 PM
And my belief that "if you're not close to the edge you're taking up too much room". Azande is my barometer of edgyness. If he starts reading me I'll know I've lost mine.


... and how how about "I don't believe in Andy McGregor?" :devil: :wink:

ooops, slippery slope, we've been here before, retract, retract .......

LMC
24th-June-2005, 02:44 PM
ah, looks like this is the place to park my bucket for a while...

Yoo-hoo folks - it's over here now

Magic Hans
27th-June-2005, 02:49 PM
ah, looks like this is the place to park my bucket for a while...

Yoo-hoo folks - it's over here now

...and I thought you had a nice car!! :eek: :whistle: :whistle: :flower: