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Dance Demon
16th-June-2005, 09:57 AM
Now before I go any further, I know this has been discussed many times before, so don't need anyone supplying links to other threads..... :)
Prompted by a comment made by Dreadful Scathe on the Southport thread about a couple of female friends that were groped by some sleazebag....and by comments and information I have recieved since coming home, I think this is a problem that we now have to address ASAP. I now think it is time for venue organisers, and I include myself in that group, to make it priority to inform their customers that any inapropriate behaviour will not be tolerated, and any coplaints of behaviour of this kind will be taken most seriously. of the incidents that DS referred to, I know that one involved a guy trying to put his hand up her skirt. When she politely but forcefully told him to keep his hands above her waist, he just laughed at her and said " ach you are loving it really"...........I have also been informed by Scot, who runs Ceroc in Edinburgh, that one girl who was on the receiving end of similar treatment has been in touch with him to say that she is considering giving up dancing because she was so upset. When the girl in the first incident told me what had happened, I told her she should in form John or Wes, as they would most definately deal with it, but I don't know if she did............Now comes the other point. I have been reliably informed that moves that could be considered to include inapropriate touching ( certainly if you were dancing freestyle with a stranger)..were being tought in one teachers classes :eek: ...and the people attending the class were told at the beggining....."this is not a dance class.....it's a singles club :really: ).....now, if a teacher is teaching such moves in his class, and men are trying them out on unsuspecting females, who didn't attend the class, and therefore don't have a clue as to what they are trying to do, it is understandable that ladies will be upset...... as would the husband or partner of a lady who was on the receiving end of unwanted and unsolicited touching. If I was to see some geezer trying to put his hand up my wifes skirt when he was dancing with her, I might not be responsible for my actions :wink: .......So do we need this kind of stuff being tought at weekenders?
Sorry to go off on a rant, but I know that Both John and Wes put an incredible amount of time and effort to put together the best weekender in the country. I also know for a fact, that if they received complaints about behaviour of this kind, they would act on it immediately. I am sure that any event organiser worth his salt would act similarly. perhaps it is time for organisers to issue a policy statement about this in their literature?

Andy McGregor
16th-June-2005, 10:15 AM
I have been reliably informed that moves that could be considered to include inapropriate touching ( certainly if you were dancing freestyle with a stranger)..were being tought in one teachers classes :eek: ...and the people attending the class were told at the beggining....."this is not a dance class.....it's a singles club :really: ).....now, if a teacher is teaching such moves in his class, and men are trying them out on unsuspecting females, who didn't attend the class, and therefore don't have a clue as to what they are trying to do, it is understandable that ladies will be upset...... as would the husband or partner of a lady who was on the receiving end of unwanted and unsolicited touching. If I was to see some geezer trying to put his hand up my wifes skirt when he was dancing with her, I might not be responsible for my actions :wink: .......So do we need this kind of stuff being tought at weekenders?
Sorry to go off on a rant, but I know that Both John and Wes put an incredible amount of time and effort to put together the best weekender in the country. I also know for a fact, that if they received complaints about behaviour of this kind, they would act on it immediately. I am sure that any event organiser worth his salt would act similarly. perhaps it is time for organisers to issue a policy statement about this in their literatureI've been banging this particular drum for ages. And I will go further. Inappropriate moves are just that. No kind of warning or verbal statement will stop some guys doing those moves in freestyle. They see the fact the move was taught in a lesson at the weekender as endorsement of the use of that move in freestyle.

What people need to do is look at the teacher line-up and decide if they want the kind of move taught by some teachers done to their wives, daughters and female friends! I don't think staying away from the class is sufficient as it's the guys that attend the class who do those sleazy moves on our unsuspecting women. My advice is to tell the weekender organisers that you will not be attending if they continue to allow classes that have moves drawn from the sleazy world of porn and perversion - no matter what statements the teacher makes or warnings that are given!

under par
16th-June-2005, 10:21 AM
These incidents must be reported to the organiser, if not the police if they are as bad as trying to place a hand up a womans skirt. Sounds almost a sexual assault.

All women have a right to be treated with respect at a dance venue.

Any actions taken that make you feel uncomfortable probably are inappropriate and the person resposible should be told to stop.

This could and should be the highly publicised policy of every venue.

As well as telling the person to stop, there should be an easliy accessible complaints form to provide the venue organisers with written descriptions of suspects and events.

A policy of educating the clientelle at all venues should start with the teachers giving the brief explanation of the policy at the end of most lessons.

ie. "this is a dance class, please note that any inappropriate touching is offensive. Nobody should accept any actions during dancing that make you feel uncomfortable. ask the person responsible to stop it. report any problems to me or you may use the forms at the desk. we want you all to enjoy the dancing"

If all organisers took up the idea, the pervs would soon be hounded out of Mj :yeah: .

David Franklin
16th-June-2005, 10:44 AM
of the incidents that DS referred to, I know that one involved a guy trying to put his hand up her skirt. When she politely but forcefully told him to keep his hands above her waist, he just laughed at her and said " ach you are loving it really"To agree with Under Par - my personal preference is that not only should the organisers have been informed, but the perpetrator should have been warned a repeat incident would result in involving the police.


Now comes the other point. I have been reliably informed that moves that could be considered to include inapropriate touching [...] now, if a teacher is teaching such moves in his class, and men are trying them out on unsuspecting females, who didn't attend the class, and therefore don't have a clue as to what they are trying to do, it is understandable that ladies will be upset[...]So do we need this kind of stuff being tought at weekenders?On one hand, I agree with you - a class with some sultry sensual moves is one thing, but some teachers seem to be trying to keep uping the "outrageous" content and end up going more for the simulated sex approach. Even neglecting whether those moves are inflicted unsuspecting partners, I just think it's really sad and tacky.

However, I do think there's a place for classes that are strictly "consenting adults" only. The obvious example would be airsteps classes (vested interest? moi? ) - there are a lot of moves that involve contact that would be unacceptable on a social dancefloor. But in all such classes there should never be any confusion about whether they are acceptable without prearranged consent from your partner.

Dance Demon
16th-June-2005, 11:09 AM
..........Now comes the other point. I have been reliably informed that moves that could be considered to include inapropriate touching ( certainly if you were dancing freestyle with a stranger)..were being tought in one teachers classes :eek: ...and the people attending the class were told at the beggining....."this is not a dance class.....it's a singles club :really: ).....now, if a teacher is teaching such moves in his class, and men are trying them out on unsuspecting females, who didn't attend the class, and therefore don't have a clue as to what they are trying to do, it is understandable that ladies will be upset...... as would the husband or partner of a lady who was on the receiving end of unwanted and unsolicited touching. If I was to see some geezer trying to put his hand up my wifes skirt when he was dancing with her, I might not be responsible for my actions :wink: .......So do we need this kind of stuff being tought at weekenders?


The above statement was made based on what I was told by other people, as I didn't personally attend this class. the reason i mentioned this was to see if anyone else thought that teaching these moves contributed to the problem of inapropriate touchers. I am sure that the majority of men who attended this class, would never use these moves as an excuse to grope women, and I have been informed that the singles club comment was made tongue in cheek. I do not think that classes of this kind are the cause of gropers in MJ.....they existed before this kind of class was being taught, ...but in some cases they don't help either. Unfortunately, for every 100 decent guys out there, there is always one who will use the fact that he was taught it in a class as an excuse for trying it on with every one. However, I have also been informed that people attending this class were told that the moves were just a bit of fun and were not for use in general freestyle..........

David Bailey
16th-June-2005, 11:10 AM
My advice is to tell the weekender organisers that you will not be attending if they continue to allow classes that have moves drawn from the sleazy world of porn and perversion
Cripes, that's half my repertoire gone... :innocent:

Seriously, I fully support promoting and publicising procedures to deal with inappropriate contact by dancers. And I very much support seriously slapping teachers who try to sell dancing as sex - generally, they're not the best teachers anyway, so losing them wouln't be any great loss IMO. And the whole "teacher as sex magnet" thing is uber-sleazy, I suspect that's a motivation for certain people, but let's not go there...

However, let's get some perspective here: we're talking about 1 or 2 people out of, what, 1,500? I'm amazed that the sleazebag factor is actually that low - I'm not sure you'd get 1,500 people anywhere else in that sort of situation and have a problem rate of 0.1 percent.

So 99 + % of MJ dancers are fine, which is more than you can say for almost any other social gathering. Deal with the sleazebags, deal with them promptly and firmly and publicly, but don't let it influence your choice of dancing or venue.

LilyB
16th-June-2005, 11:23 AM
........ However, I do think there's a place for classes that are strictly "consenting adults" only. The obvious example would be airsteps classes (vested interest? moi? ) - there are a lot of moves that involve contact that would be unacceptable on a social dancefloor. But in all such classes there should never be any confusion about whether they are acceptable without prearranged consent from your partner.
The "crotch lift", for example, eh? :devil: There's absolutely no way any guy's going to do that one without his partner's consent! :rofl: Come to think of it, I can't recall anyone else over here (perv or otherwise) doing that particular move ..... :whistle:

David Franklin
16th-June-2005, 11:29 AM
The "crotch lift", for example, eh? :devil: There's absolutely no way any guy's going to do that one without his partner's consent! :rofl:Well, given where the lady's knees are on the entry, it's fairly easy for her to take preventative action. Spitting out teeth does tend to reduce the libedo...

Andy McGregor
16th-June-2005, 11:29 AM
However, I do think there's a place for classes that are strictly "consenting adults" only. The obvious example would be airsteps classes (vested interest? moi? ) - there are a lot of moves that involve contact that would be unacceptable on a social dancefloor. But in all such classes there should never be any confusion about whether they are acceptable without prearranged consent from your partner.Let's not get confused here. The 'contact' required in airsteps is a necessary evil where you need to get your hand in a centre of balance to execute a lift and, in some cases, that 'centre' might be somewhere intimate :what:

The simulated sex acts are just that, they aren't a necessary evil between two athletes working on a very difficult aspect of their chosen sport. The simulated sex acts are an unnecessary evil. IMHO, if you want sex, find a consenting adult and have sex with them somewhere private. If you want to do a social dance, go out and do that with loads of other people. To me there is no blurring of the boundaries. BUT, it seems to me that some people have difficulty knowing where that boundary lies and are teaching and therefore endorsing acts on the dance floor between strangers that should only be performed between intimate partners in private.

And, as alluded to by David Franklin, part of the attraction of classes that simulate sex acts is that they are outrageous. But once you've got used to them you need to top them by being more and more outrageous the next time. And if you're in a lesson with 300 couples doing the same lewd act it can quickly seem to be acceptable - you might even thing people will see you as a prude for not going along with it! Before we know it we'll have a dance floor where the guys are standing there with the girls using them as their pole to bump and grind against. And what after that? Maybe getting people to change into kinky underwear the teacher supplies? The ultimate end-point for this trend is to have a class for naked dancers! And all the while the teacher will try to hide behind the warning "This class is for consenting adults, don't do this in freestyle" :angry:

David Bailey
16th-June-2005, 11:39 AM
Before we know it we'll have a dance floor where the guys are standing there with the girls using them as their pole to bump and grind against. And what after that? Maybe getting people to change into kinky underwear the teacher supplies?
Sleazebags are sleazebags - they'll use every excuse they can. They know it's wrong, they don't "misunderstand", they just want their partners to think they misunderstand. Fair enough, let's not give them any excuse - but outrageous dancing classes are not the core problem, it's the sleazebags who are the core problem.

Ban the sleazebags (I'd guess any experienced female dancer will know who they are) and you can teach anything you want, any way you want, to any state of clothing you want. Although I don't think the world's ready to see me in kinky underwear. In fact, I don't think I'm ready to see me in kinky underwear...

Purple Sparkler
16th-June-2005, 11:45 AM
All excellent points from everyone. I really, really like the suggestion of the well-publicised (to women AND men) complaints procedure for inappropriate behaviour on the dancefloor. I still remember being put in a comb very early in my dance career by a horrible man who told me he wasn't going to let me out of it "unless I wiggled". Mild, but it really bothered me.

The thing with the more risque of the close moves is that they need to be taught by someone damn good- Howard and Nicola have taught some at Hammersmith and places, and it's been fine- usually because they're lady-led. But I think really there ought to be some limits imposed- you don't necessarily have to get 'more outrageous' in what you're taught next time- why not just teach some different variations in terms of footwork, styling, and other technical things. I mean, how many variations of a basic seducer are there without anything more outrageous?

I've done really quite outrageous moves with a partner before, but it was someone I knew well and felt comfortable with. I wouldn't attempt them with a stranger, and I certainly think that ought to be a rule- don't use close moves on anyone you don't know, or on beginners, and don't use them without asking how your partner feels about them first- just like dips, drops or aerials/lifts.

David Franklin
16th-June-2005, 11:50 AM
Let's not get confused here. The 'contact' required in airsteps is a necessary evil where you need to get your hand in a centre of balance to execute a lift and, in some cases, that 'centre' might be somewhere intimate :what: I'm not sure it's that straightforward. I've seen men I consider, shall we say, "on the sleazy side" doing lifts where the contact is somewhat intimate. Maybe I'm just cynical, but I'm not convinced the contact isn't the goal, rather than the side effect. I've also had a man explain to me "I like doing airsteps classes, you always get a good grope". :sick:

In any move involving such contact, I think it needs to be made very clear you need to get prior consent before doing the move. It is totally unacceptable for people to think "it's a dance move" is justification for putting a hand up a stranger's skirt.


The simulated sex acts are an unnecessary evil. IMHO, if you want sex, find a consenting adult and have sex with them somewhere private. If you want to do a social dance, go out and do that with loads of other people.I don't disagree with any of that, but I am aware that what one person considers sensual another may consider pornographic. It's a very subjective issue. Of course, if any individual wants to boycott a class (or event containing that class) because they disagree with it, they'd get nothing but my support for sticking to their principles.


...And all the while the teacher will try to hide behind the warning "This class is for consenting adults, don't do this in freestyle" :angry:Problem is, what else can a responsible teacher say? Again, the same problem exists for airsteps. But maybe you're right and not having the class is the only real solution - for similar reasons I'm uncomfortable with teaching aerials at a mass event like a weekender.

under par
16th-June-2005, 11:57 AM
I don't feel slating one of the classes or another or one teacher or another is actually very productive to the victims.

A perv is aperv is a perv! FULL STOP

What the victim wants to know is "how to deal with it"

This is why I feel that the education of class attendees and the publicity of a common policy by all organisers at all venues, which is given out by the teachers at every class would enable the meeker, weaker victims to feel able to deal with a perv.

So stop casting aspersions on the past lets promote a safer brighter future for all dancers.

Promotors and organisers take note it is now time to act to promote an anti perv policy.

Educate your teachers to publicly declare the policy as regularly as possible.

Be proactive and allow all dancers to enjoy the pleasures of modern jive


(gets off soap box curtsees and exits stage left)

David Bailey
16th-June-2005, 12:01 PM
I don't disagree with any of that, but I am aware that what one person considers sensual another may consider pornographic. It's a very subjective issue. Of course, if any individual wants to boycott a class (or event containing that class) because they disagree with it, they'd get nothing but my support for sticking to their principles.
:yeah: X 3


Problem is, what else can a responsible teacher say?
Well, they can say "Here's the complaints process" loud and clear at the start of the class / workshop / weekender, or in the promotional material for that class / workshop / weekender.

That should make it crystal-clear that sleazebags will be given the boot in no uncertain terms, and means someone knows they can make a complaint, there and then, in writing, which will be recorded and can be used as evidence later on. Rather than, say, a week later, as a third-hand hearsay story on the Internet...

But I doubt many people will do that, as it might adversely affect their revenue. Feedback, feedback, feedback... I may have mentioned this topic once or twice before, but I think I got away with it :)

Danielle
16th-June-2005, 12:06 PM
All excellent points from everyone. I really, really like the suggestion of the well-publicised (to women AND men) complaints procedure for inappropriate behaviour on the dancefloor. I still remember being put in a comb very early in my dance career by a horrible man who told me he wasn't going to let me out of it "unless I wiggled". Mild, but it really bothered me.

The thing with the more risque of the close moves is that they need to be taught by someone damn good- Howard and Nicola have taught some at Hammersmith and places, and it's been fine- usually because they're lady-led. But I think really there ought to be some limits imposed- you don't necessarily have to get 'more outrageous' in what you're taught next time- why not just teach some different variations in terms of footwork, styling, and other technical things. I mean, how many variations of a basic seducer are there without anything more outrageous?

I've done really quite outrageous moves with a partner before, but it was someone I knew well and felt comfortable with. I wouldn't attempt them with a stranger, and I certainly think that ought to be a rule- don't use close moves on anyone you don't know, or on beginners, and don't use them without asking how your partner feels about them first- just like dips, drops or aerials/lifts.


I see what you're saying and agree that before teaching a class involving close moves perhaps the teacher should recomend that the guy asks before doing close moves on unknown ladies. But i don't think altering the class would make a difference - as said before 99% of people dancing are there because they love it and not to sleaze on people, and are happy to learn closer moves as its a different style of dancing. If a man tries a close move which you are not comfortable doing, gentle resistant on his nearest shoulder is enough to tell him you'd like your space and most dancers totally respect that.

Its the 1% of strange sleazey people who don't that cause the problems, And as said before the only way to stop this is to report them to the venue manager, because although most people on this forum have the experience to deal with this type of behavoiur (if i'm really unhappy, have told the guy and he still persisits i will leave the dance floor) most beginners don't, and are to polite to say anything - they just don't come back, and for there sake i think its important for the more experienced people to speak up!!!

Trish
16th-June-2005, 12:18 PM
I think I'm very lucky - I've never really come across creeps like those mentioned at Ceroc. OK one or two guys who look at you in a slightly letchy way and make you feel uncomfortable, but no deliberate inappropriate touching. The one guy I reported for looking me up and down in a sleazy fashion and making inappropriate comments was also reported by several other girls, and left Ceroc. I know our venue manager had a word with him, but I don't know if he was officially chucked out or went of his own accord. The only time I've come across someone trying to put his hand up my skirt was in a nightclub, and I elbowed him very hard in the stomach and stamped on his toe - I hope that put him off a bit! If this happened to me at Ceroc I would stop dancing with him immediately and slap him very hard round the face, I would then tell all the other girls what he'd done and report him - the more fuss the better. If that didn't stop him I don't know what would, and I don't think this type of thing should be tolerated at all.

As to the sleazy classes at freestyles, they are definately not my cup of tea, so I don't go to them, although I know other people who have been and quite enjoyed some of it, I also know people who have been and walked out. I don't think they're going to make your average modern jiver turn sleazy if they weren't of that persuasion in the first place though. I've got no qualms with close moves/blues as long as they're done in a gentlemanly fashion, but would soon say so if someone had over stepped the mark by inappropriate touching.

LMC
16th-June-2005, 12:22 PM
I see what you're saying and agree that before teaching a class involving close moves perhaps the teacher should recomend that the guy asks before doing close moves on unknown ladies.

:yeah: - no excuses then is there?


Its the 1% of strange sleazey people who don't that cause the problems, And as said before the only way to stop this is to report them to the venue manager, because although most people on this forum have the experience to deal with this type of behavoiur (if i'm really unhappy, have told the guy and he still persisits i will leave the dance floor) most beginners don't, and are to polite to say anything - they just don't come back, and for there sake i think its important for the more experienced people to speak up!!!

As a beginner myself who has NO problem asserting meself at work/in other areas of life (in case you hadn't noticed :rofl: ) it's not necessarily just "politeness" but could be inexperience - I said on another thread somewhere that I was getting over "slo comb discomfort" - that doesn't mean that the guy was behaving inappropriately (in fact, I've only had one 'dodgy' experience so far and that was an "interestingly" positioned basket :mad: ). Some teachers have been brilliant in explaining 'sabotage' methods and/or warning of the "pitfalls" - e.g. where a lady steps to correctly position a sway ('nuff said? :innocent: ). As a beginner, you see other dancers doing "apparently" identical moves and being comfortable with them (because a beginner don't see the subtle differences in position) - it's only maybe a bit later that you 'fine tune' what's a appropriate and what's not.

I would hope that these things would be all that should be necessary. "Advertising" a complaints procedure too heavily might give people a false impression that there's a high number of sleaze bags - perhaps a discreet leaflet in the membership card wallet that people get when they join would be an idea?

David Bailey
16th-June-2005, 12:37 PM
"Advertising" a complaints procedure too heavily might give people a false impression that there's a high number of sleaze bags - perhaps a discreet leaflet in the membership card wallet that people get when they join would be an idea?
Trouble is, if it's too discreet, no-one will notice it. :sad:

My ideal world solution is a "feedback / comments form", to everyone, which would include space for complaints if required, but also comments on venue, teaching, music, etc. But now I'm even boring myself on the Great Feedback Issue, so I'll shut up about it. :rolleyes:

Of course, we don't want beginners to think MJ is full of sleazes - and it isn't. But "name and shame" is I believe the only way to actually get something done; the glare of publicity will scare these people away. And I don't even think it's 1%, but I'm willing to be corrected.

stewart38
16th-June-2005, 12:58 PM
And, as alluded to by David Franklin, part of the attraction of classes that simulate sex acts is that they are outrageous. But once you've got used to them you need to top them by being more and more outrageous the next time. And if you're in a lesson with 300 couples doing the same lewd act it can quickly seem to be acceptable - you might even thing people will see you as a prude for not going along with it! Before we know it we'll have a dance floor where the guys are standing there with the girls using them as their pole to bump and grind against. And what after that? Maybe getting people to change into kinky underwear the teacher supplies? The ultimate end-point for this trend is to have a class for naked dancers! And all the while the teacher will try to hide behind the warning "This class is for consenting adults, don't do this in freestyle" :angry:



As to the sleazy classes at freestyles, they are definately not my cup of tea, so I don't go to them, although I know other people who have been and quite enjoyed some of it, I also know people who have been and walked out. I don't think they're going to make your average modern jiver turn sleazy if they weren't of that persuasion in the first place though. I've got no qualms with close moves/blues as long as they're done in a gentlemanly fashion, but would soon say so if someone had over stepped the mark by inappropriate touching.

Ok lets stop this rubbish now and not get everyone with a personal gripe on hear to knock what are well attended (men and women) classes which lets say have a 'adult theme'. Often there fixed partners and its clealry spelt out what they are. If you dont like then dont go but pleaseeeeeeeee dont go and try and say their encouraging sleezyness.

I would suggest there was over 500 who attended said class at 6pm on sunday at camber in May. Probably the most well attended class of the weekend

There well organised fun classes and thats all that they are.

SilverFox
16th-June-2005, 01:00 PM
Sleazebags exist/thrive/survive in the MJ scene for 2 reasons.

i) Some women actually like them. :eek:

Let's be honest we all know of at least one sleazy man. We know about him, the venue knows about him, in fact nearly all the regulars know about him. If he was judged by all women to be so sleazy, he would surely have had his come-uppance by now (or lost the use of at least one testicle).

I often speak to female dancers about particular sleazes and hear an assortment of responses such as: "He's harmless really" "He's OK once you tell him your limits" "He knows not to try it on with me" "He's cheeky isn't he".

It is this type of woolly reaction that allows these sad little men to continue doing their worst to beginners et al.


ii) The organisers don't want to get involved and/or are protecting their revenue.

What a load of tosh. I have been in the bar/club game for over a decade and have thrown out and barred literally hundreds of people. If the premises are licensed you do not even have to give a reason. Most MJ organisations are 'members only' as well. Include some rules about inappropriate behaviour in the membership T & Cs and use those rules to kick these men out. A lot more straighforward than people imagine.

As far as revenue loss goes, well if a business is going to miss less than say 0.5% of it's turnover so badly I would suggest a change of career is in order. By kicking out sleazes permanantly lots of beginners are more likely to continue attending due to a safer, more pleasant environment.

Sorry, I feel better now. Aaaaaah..... :flower:

spindr
16th-June-2005, 01:12 PM
http://www.afterfive.co.uk/guide/latest/html/dancing_with_confidence.html#respect_your_partner

bigdjiver
16th-June-2005, 01:25 PM
I find it very sad that we have had all of these discussions before on this forum, but when push came to shove the forum readers there appear just to have tolerated this behaviour at the time, and complained about it afterwards, and another serial groper (assuming that there was only one) was allowed to continue.

Andy McGregor
16th-June-2005, 01:26 PM
In any move involving such contact, I think it needs to be made very clear you need to get prior consent before doing the move. It is totally unacceptable for people to think "it's a dance move" is justification for putting a hand up a stranger's skirt. This what I'm talking about. Many people go to a dance class to learn a dance. And then when they get to freestyle they do the dance they've learnt. To some guys the fact that the move has been taught in a group lesson is all that's required to make them consider the move to be a normal part of the dance. The only way we can stop that permission being given is to stop teaching the moves in large group lessons.

As has been said earlier, we know that any group of people will have a few sleazy guys in it. I see this as a compelling reason NOT to teach sleazy moves to ANY group of people.

Of course we need a way of identifying and weeding out these guys. But to commit these offences they need means, motive and opportunity. Teaching guys moves from porn give them the means and provides them with their first opportunity. Identifying these guys and excluding them doesn't stop them committing their first/second/third act of sleaze and every other one up until the moment somebody is brave enough to act against them. I suppose the route organisers choose to take depends on which world you'd rather live in: one where people commit crimes and are identified and punished or one where less crimes are committed. At the moment weekender organisers are not just in the first world, they are endorsing giving the offenders the tools to offend in allowing the teaching of simulated porn in their lessons :angry:

Gadget
16th-June-2005, 01:34 PM
Two things:
1) Accusation does not equate to guilt. Once an accusation has been made, the target will never be innocent.

2) Normal -> Sensual -> Sexy -> Sexual -> Sleasy -> Assault. Everyone's perception is different as to where the line is, depending on the partner, music, self confidence and company.

I'm all for having a recognised policy and actions that should be taken in the event of someone being a sleaze, but I think that grabbing a rope and a possie has a knee-jerk reaction that will get innocent people hung.

CJ
16th-June-2005, 01:34 PM
As has been said earlier, we know that any group of people will have a few sleazy guys in it. I see this as a compelling reason NOT to teach sleazy moves to ANY group of people.


Will the last one to leave please turn out the lights....

GREAT thinking...

We should stop selling alcohol in case someone gets blind drunk, and causes offence.

Let's stop selling motor cars so that no-one will drive recklessly and kill an innocent.

Let's stop broadcasting TV in case someone sees some violence that offends them.

Let's stop selling prams so that poeple on forums have nothing to throw their toys out of!!

How about: every perv that gets caught has his scrotum removed in as long and slow a way possible, without anasthetic. THAT would deter people from doing it AND those that can enjoy such moves/dancing without causing offence or crossing boundaries are free to do so...

(OK, so extreme example, but make the punishment far outweigh the crime and the crime wont happen.)

Andy McGregor
16th-June-2005, 01:45 PM
(OK, so extreme example, but make the punishment far outweigh the crime and the crime wont happen.)And I'm accused of being extreme!

What I'm saying is that there is no need to teach moves in large lessons with names like the "spit roast" or other moves that simulate sex acts between humans or even dogs :sick: Dancing is not enriched by this, it is lessened.

Of course there is an element of sexual innuendo in many of the moves we do. BUT there are moves that are taught which you would not do without permission and it is those moves that I believe should not be taught in mass classes. After all, who is going to say "do you mind if I do the move where I put my hand up your skirt?" That request alone is probably enough to get you up before the "Moves Magistrate".

IMHO we have enough to learn in MJ without the absolute sleaze that some teachers peddle :mad:

David Franklin
16th-June-2005, 01:53 PM
To some guys the fact that the move has been taught in a group lesson is all that's required to make them consider the move to be a normal part of the dance. The only way we can stop that permission being given is to stop teaching the moves in large group lessons.Well, the alternative approach is to, you know, like, tell them it isn't acceptable in normal dancing. Of course, some won't listen... :tears:

However, I'm going to stop playing devils advocate here. I have no problem with sensual moves. But I think there's a line. If a move leaves me wondering "is his hand really rubbing her crotch?", I don't think it belongs in modern jive. And I am really fed up of certain individuals leaving me trying to decide "is this mutual, or am I witnessing a sexual assault?".

And I think your point about mass classes is a good one (and correlates with my feelings on aerials). If you want to have specialist workshops that teach such moves, fair enough. But I don't think it is possible to adequately control such classes when you have 100+ people participating.

MartinHarper
16th-June-2005, 02:04 PM
I appreciate that I'm not the quickest learner on the dancefloor, but I still reckon I can figure out how to slip my hand up someone's skirt without needing an hour-long lesson on the subject.


I am really fed up of certain individuals leaving me trying to decide "is this mutual, or am I witnessing a sexual assault?".

I think this goes with bigdjiver's point - that nobody did anything at the time. Has anyone here ever mistaken mutual stuff for an assault? I'd imagine that would be wildly embarassing for all concerned...

Andy McGregor
16th-June-2005, 02:11 PM
I appreciate that I'm not the quickest learner on the dancefloor, but I still reckon I can figure out how to slip my hand up someone's skirt without needing an hour-long lesson on the subject.The point I'm making is that after an hour-long lesson you could use as your defence that you thought it was part of the dance as you'd just done a workshop where the teacher taught you that move. And because you joined the lesson late you weren't there when the teacher gave out any instructions on when and where that move was appropriate.

stewart38
16th-June-2005, 02:23 PM
I find it very sad that we have had all of these discussions before on this forum, but when push came to shove the forum readers there appear just to have tolerated this behaviour at the time, and complained about it afterwards, and another serial groper (assuming that there was only one) was allowed to continue.

No because once again we have one one or two individuals that have personal gripes with one two others , these are not 'discussions'.

You might have had 1 or 2 individuals out of 1200 ? who caused offence the 'solutions' to that have been dicussed. We dont know if it was the same groper or anything.

If someone puts a hand up a girls skirt she reports it to the police or organiser full stop, no discussion required on a forum where none of us I assume witness it.


You dont need armies of people to go weeding them out

Its usually the men that make the noise

There turning women away from weekenders like southport

The impression is given that its a massive problem I dont believe it is and then to try and say 500 'adults' are sleezy because they take part in a class is sad.

Lou
16th-June-2005, 02:30 PM
Some women actually like them. :eek:

Let's be honest we all know of at least one sleazy man. We know about him, the venue knows about him, in fact nearly all the regulars know about him. If he was judged by all women to be so sleazy, he would surely have had his come-uppance by now (or lost the use of at least one testicle).

I often speak to female dancers about particular sleazes and hear an assortment of responses such as: "He's harmless really" "He's OK once you tell him your limits" "He knows not to try it on with me" "He's cheeky isn't he".

It is this type of woolly reaction that allows these sad little men to continue doing their worst to beginners et al.
Your comments have got me thinking....

There's a dancer in Bristol who has been spoken to by a number of organisers for inappropriate moves. But I continue to dance with him, as I've made it clear what I find unacceptable. And, fair play, he doesnt overstep the mark. In general, I'm very uncomfortable with close-up moves anyway (maybe even more so than your average lady), unless I totally trust my partner. So I have absolutely no problem in asking someone to tone it down.

But are you saying that I'm unwittingly adding to or indeed causing the problem, because I don't take it further than that by talking to the organisers? Or that, by taking what I think is an assertive, or pro-active approach, it's actually causing problems for less assertive victims?

bigdjiver
16th-June-2005, 02:31 PM
The point I'm making is that after an hour-long lesson you could use as your defence that you thought it was part of the dance as you'd just done a workshop where the teacher taught you that move. And because you joined the lesson late you weren't there when the teacher gave out any instructions on when and where that move was appropriate.As I posted once before I saw a guy use the fact that he had been taught such a grope move to demonstrate, i.e. grope, a teacher off-floor in the presence of her boyfriend and several others. She obviously did not like it, but we all took her lead and let it pass. I suspect, and hope, that there were repercussions in private.

Andy McGregor
16th-June-2005, 02:34 PM
The impression is given that its a massive problem I dont believe it is and then to try and say 500 'adults' are sleezy because they take part in a class is sad.What I'm saying is that sleazy guys are more likely to get away with it if what they do was taught in a lesson. I'm not saying that adults can be infected with sleazyness.

Dance Demon
16th-June-2005, 02:46 PM
Its usually the men that make the noise
There turning women away from weekenders like southport
The impression is given that its a massive problem I dont believe it is and then to try and say 500 'adults' are sleezy because they take part in a class is sad.

I don't think anyone has said that 500 people were sleazy because they took part in the class.........It has already been stated that the VAST majority of people who attended the class enjoyed it and didn't use it as an excuse to molest anyone. But there are always the rogue few..... Also, this thread was posted to find out if people thought there was a connection between classes that teach this kind of move, and people who see it as an excuse to grope someone because it was taught in a class. There is more than one teacher teaching this kind of class, at Southport it was Mikey, but at other weekenders other teachers have tought classes with similar content. Many people enjoy them, others don't. Let's not let this become a witch hunt against one person.
Re the comment about It's usually men that make the noise.....that's because many ladies seek out a male friend to tell if they have been groped. Many ladies are reluctant to make a fuss in case they are falsely accused of leading men on. They tell a male friend that knows them well and knows that would not be the case, and they in turn bring the subject up on their behalf. With the number of threads that we have had about this subject, it obviously is still a problem, even if it's only a small one in your eyes.......

Minnie M
16th-June-2005, 02:46 PM
The quote below is taken from a well known dance site:-

Dance Lambada This very sexy Brazilian dance is performed in close thigh-to-thigh, pelvis-to-pelvis contact. You'll learn the rotating hip movements and how to improvise dips and swirls. It's a great dance to do with someone you really like.

NB: Note the last sentence :whistle:

pervs should be ex....ter.....min...ate.....ted.......

SilverFox
16th-June-2005, 02:48 PM
There's a dancer in Bristol who has been spoken to by a number of organisers for inappropriate moves. But I continue to dance with him, as I've made it clear what I find unacceptable.

But are you saying that I'm unwittingly adding to or indeed causing the problem, because I don't take it further than that by talking to the organisers? Or that, by taking what I think is an assertive, or pro-active approach, it's actually causing problems for less assertive victims?The blame here has to lie with the organisers. It is exactly this attitude that seems to prevail in most venues. Why are the organisers still speaking to this man? Pathetic! Bar him.

You Lou on a secondary level are doing what you feel is best for you..and rightly so I suppose. But.. your behaviour would - in the perpetrators mind - legitimise inappropriate behaviour towards those not so assertive or well informed as you.

David Franklin
16th-June-2005, 03:02 PM
Re the comment about It's usually men that make the noise.....that's because many ladies seek out a male friend to tell if they have been groped. Many ladies are reluctant to make a fuss in case they are falsely accused of leading men on.I think the other big thing is that a lot of the unpleasant dancers are hiding in the "grey area" of dancing. The hands go a little too high or too low, they linger a little too long, the lady is pulled a little too close. At the end of it, the lady is feeling sleazed, but there's little concrete to complain about. (Some may notice parallels with the Michael Jackson trial).

What I find deeply concerning about the Southport anecdotes is that things seem to have moved a long way beyond that "grey area". If someone can claim putting a hand up your partner's skirt is a reasonable dance move, we really are in a sorry state. I do implore anyone witnessing such an event to inform the organizers.

As far as embarrassment at thinking something is untoward when it isn't: I've intervened incorrectly (at college, not at dance), and yes, it was very embarrassing. I think ignoring the situation and finding out the next day someone had been assaulted would have been worse. But on the gripping hand, I have to say it's made me less happy to intervene unless the lady shows clear signs of distress.

Getting back to the dancing context, I think if you want to do those moves, you can't be too surprised if people get the wrong idea. And if you really are making people think they're witnessing harassment/assault, maybe you need to rethink what you're doing...

Lou
16th-June-2005, 03:14 PM
You Lou on a secondary level are doing what you feel is best for you..and rightly so I suppose. But.. your behaviour would - in the perpetrators mind - legitimise inappropriate behaviour towards those not so assertive or well informed as you.
I don't know what to feel right now.

On one hand I'm feeling really guilty for being the unwitting cause of the continuing perving...

Yet I'm also very cross and uncomfortable that as an assertive woman, I'm being blamed for being the very same unwitting cause of that continuing perving.

What am I supposed to do? I don't have a problem with the way this person dances with me, because I've spoken with him, and he's modified his behaviour. I'd feel hypocritical. Especially if I hypothetically chose to indulge in mutual sleezier moves with someone else on the next dance.

I'm worried about the way that this thread is going. I'm an adult woman. It's up to me what moves in the "grey area" I feel comfortable with, and it's my responsibility to say what my comfort zone is and ensure it's respected.

As an experienced dancer, if I see someone making a beginner lady feel awkward, I'll make sure from now on I'll speak to her & say that if something makes her uncomfortable, she should have no qualms in talking about it to the organiser. Any more than that I'd feel I was interfering too much.

CJ
16th-June-2005, 03:17 PM
Any more than that I'd feel I was interfering too much.

Don't interfere too much, that's the Perv's place!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:blush: :blush: :blush:

stewart38
16th-June-2005, 03:24 PM
We have



As to the sleazy classes at freestyles,

then



I don't think anyone has said that 500 people were sleazy because they took part in the class


I don’t think dancing in a blues room close up and consensual is sleazy

If they were groping each other and even if it was consensual maybe I would

In my mind sleaze bags are those who impose them selves unwontedly on women or men (rare but it happens, maybe not rare im no Brad Pit ?)

Is salsa sleazy is micky class sleazy, I guess we don’t even have any consensus on what is sleazy. If people see these classes as sleezy are they not suggesting those who take part are sleezy ?

Lou
16th-June-2005, 03:30 PM
Don't interfere too much, that's the Perv's place!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:blush: :blush: :blush:
Oi! That's you banished to the naughty step...

mick
16th-June-2005, 03:31 PM
...........about a couple of female friends that were groped by some sleazebag....I think this is a problem that we now have to address ASAP. ........any inapropriate behaviour will not be tolerated...............one involved a guy trying to put his hand up her skirt................, he just laughed at her and said " ach you are loving it really"...........inapropriate touching ...........[?


Whitley Bay Academy of Musicality Summer School 2005
practical classes for ladies, addressing "Dealing With The Sleazebag"
by our residential Jujitsu master
techniques including: Face Slapping, The Knee In The Testicles, and Effective Use Of The Elbow

CJ
16th-June-2005, 03:35 PM
Oi! That's you banished to the naughty step...

Coooooooooooooool... U gonna put me over your knee?!? :yum: I mean, er, :blush:

MartinHarper
16th-June-2005, 03:47 PM
To my mind, if a "sleazebag" is dancing properly with an assertive pro-active woman who can handle him without worry, then he's not sleazing over anyone, and there isn't really a problem. It's a temporary fix, at least.


At Southport it was Mikey

Viktor (men's styling) and Robert&Nikki (close moves) both taught moves that were arguably inappropriate with complete strangers. Not up to Mikey's standards, of course.

LMC
16th-June-2005, 03:49 PM
In my mind sleaze bags are those who impose them selves unwontedly on women or men (rare but it happens, maybe not rare im no Brad Pit ?)



:yeah:

There's always going to be an element of instinct. I'm still really cross with myself for not 'saying something' when it happened to me. I would now though, now I've had, oooh, a whole fortnight's more experience (with guys who gentlemanly-like 'let go' after one beat when I didn't twist far enough over on the basket/swizzle/sway!!)

And some partners are always going to 'get away' with closer contact - because you know them better, like them better (or they smell better - my first stinker last night, lucky me :yum: )



Yet I'm also very cross and uncomfortable that as an assertive woman, I'm being blamed for being the very same unwitting cause of that continuing perving.

What am I supposed to do? I don't have a problem with the way this person dances with me, because I've spoken with him, and he's modified his behaviour. I'd feel hypocritical. Especially if I hypothetically chose to indulge in mutual sleezier moves with someone else on the next dance.

I'm worried about the way that this thread is going. I'm an adult woman. It's up to me what moves in the "grey area" I feel comfortable with, and it's my responsibility to say what my comfort zone is and ensure it's respected.


I can relate as I would consider myself "tougher" than many. Unfortunately, however little we like it, it's the way it is. And if that meant 'denying' myself a dance with this person for the "greater good" then I think I'd probably do just that - there's usually more than one man at most venues I've been to, even if there are rarely enough to go all the way round.

I would consider it my absolute inalienable RIGHT to refuse to do a move with one guy that I might be quite comfortable with doing with another. If the refusee took offence - tough.


As an experienced dancer, if I see someone making a beginner lady feel awkward, I'll make sure from now on I'll speak to her & say that if something makes her uncomfortable, she should have no qualms in talking about it to the organiser. Any more than that I'd feel I was interfering too much.

As a beginner myself - YES, PLEASE DO. I already owe several women :flower: :flower: :flower: for advice on some of this kind of stuff (I'm gonna name & shame DianaS for one - thanks again :) ). FWIW, my advice to a beginner lady now would be that if you're uncomfortable once, for one or only a couple of beats, maybe 'let it lie' - especially as beginners moves do not include the same 'sneaky grope' potential as some of the lifts you guys have been talking about! I would hope and am sure that a reasonably sensitive lead will notice that discomfort and adjust. If it happens again/repeatedly, or the guy has 'held on' for too long, then say something.

Lou
16th-June-2005, 04:01 PM
Coooooooooooooool... U gonna put me over your knee?!? :yum: I mean, er, :blush:
Look - if I spanked you, every pervert in this place would think it was their god given right to demand a spank from all the other innocent forumettas. And then what would Andy McGregor say?

Lucy Locket
16th-June-2005, 04:05 PM
I've read all your messages & i think it's a difficult one to sort out. Beginners are too afraid to say no or to speak up if anyone is in their personal space which is probably a bigger space than someone who has been dancing a long time. I'm a venue manager & take the refresher class & always always insist the men keep their hands at ladies waist/hip level, I do say accidents happen coz they do, but i also tell the ladies they can & must push the man's hand away, slap his face, tell me, whatever if he persists. Beginners don't know what is & isn't acceptable & will put up with something inappropriate & not mention it & never come back but what's worst is i don't get to hear about it so i do nothing.
If i'm not comfortable with how a man is dancing with me i'll never dance with him again & will mention it to other ladies, but what is not acceptable to me might be acceptable to someone else. Difficult one. However, this incident is definitely not an accident & definitely unacceptable by all.

CJ
16th-June-2005, 04:07 PM
Look - if I spanked you, every pervert in this place would think it was their god given right to demand a spank from all the other innocent forumettas. And then what would Andy McGregor say?

That is SOOOOOOOOOOOO unfair!! :tears: No-one has a God-given right to a spanking. :angry: At least, I earned mine!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :D

And anyway....

"Innocent Forumettas"!?!?!?!?!?!!? We are back to DS being a moron again aren't we?? :rolleyes:

Andy McGregor
16th-June-2005, 04:44 PM
Look - if I spanked you, every pervert in this place would think it was their god given right to demand a spank from all the other innocent forumettas. And then what would Andy McGregor say?Harder? :sick: :what:

spindr
16th-June-2005, 06:03 PM
If someone can claim putting a hand up your partner's skirt is a reasonable dance move, we really are in a sorry state.

More of a rock'n'roll style move, but if I know my partner well, and she's wearing a circle skirt *and* petticoats *and* spinning, then I may kneel and ruffle the edge of her skirt as she spins. Not a move I'd use on maybe more than one or two people.

SpinDr.

Gus
16th-June-2005, 06:12 PM
Seomone earlier made the point that people can vote with their feet. I make a point of avoiding any event where a certain teacher appears and have told organisers that if they use him I wont teach or DJ for them. Not much of a threat ( :blush: ) but its a start.

Mr Cool
16th-June-2005, 06:55 PM
Seomone earlier made the point that people can vote with their feet. I make a point of avoiding any event where a certain teacher appears and have told organisers that if they use him I wont teach or DJ for them. Not much of a threat ( :blush: ) but its a start.

Guys and gals if you hate body contact become lindy hoppers.
Personally i think dance has to have close moves and needs to be Cool Smooth and Sexy
Girls. if you dont want to dance with him just say NO
I promise you most people only want to dance with partners who really want to dance with them !!!
:waycool: :waycool: :waycool: :waycool:

David Franklin
16th-June-2005, 07:09 PM
Guys and gals if you hate body contact become lindy hoppers.It's not about hating body contact. Have you actually read the thread?

Personally i think dance has to have close moves and needs to be Cool Smooth and SexyPersonally, I think someone who thinks a dance has to have close moves is someone I'd advise women not to dance with. Sorry, but that's my genuine opinion.

RogerR
16th-June-2005, 07:22 PM
The trouble is that no two people can agree where "offensive" starts. Its a cultural, dance and personal thing, and it VARIES with the other person involved. Some of the moves I see in rehearsed performance by established dance partners look great but would be extremely offensive if forced on a stranger in freestyle. But having to have a list of moves and approve them before each dance with a new partner......... I dont think there are many non-contact dance moves.

I am bald fat 50+ and male and still remember two women who were so intimidating that I found it very offensive, both assumed the exclusive rights to dance with me and would cut me off if I tried to go and dance with anyone else. Strangely I dont dance with either of them now! One has gone on to be a MJ teacher!

Tessalicious
16th-June-2005, 07:26 PM
I don't know what to feel right now.

On one hand I'm feeling really guilty for being the unwitting cause of the continuing perving...

Yet I'm also very cross and uncomfortable that as an assertive woman, I'm being blamed for being the very same unwitting cause of that continuing perving.

What am I supposed to do? I don't have a problem with the way this person dances with me, because I've spoken with him, and he's modified his behaviour. I'd feel hypocritical. Especially if I hypothetically chose to indulge in mutual sleezier moves with someone else on the next dance.

I'm worried about the way that this thread is going. I'm an adult woman. It's up to me what moves in the "grey area" I feel comfortable with, and it's my responsibility to say what my comfort zone is and ensure it's respected.

As an experienced dancer, if I see someone making a beginner lady feel awkward, I'll make sure from now on I'll speak to her & say that if something makes her uncomfortable, she should have no qualms in talking about it to the organiser. Any more than that I'd feel I was interfering too much.
Well said.

I have to say I can distinctly remember been in both situations - as a beginner (and sometimes even now a year later) being made to feel uncomfortable by a guy who takes it over the sleazy line, and dancing quite comfortably with a guy who I have heard many others talk about as sleazy but with whom I feel able to control their behaviour (someone pass me a wooden spoon... :devil: ). Where a guy crosses that line, despite being asked not to, then it is time to consider reporting them to the venue manager. If that makes no difference then avoiding dances with that individual (and encouraging your friends to do the same) will often have the effect of putting him off asking you or even returning to the venue (extreme, sure, but in some cases justified). But on the other hand, if you don't have a problem with an individual dancing UCP or whatever you wish to call it, you don't have a duty to stop dancing with them like that just because it might encourage them to behave inappropriately to others - it is more important that everyone is informed that it is ok to tell someone when they are dancing too sleazy than to inforce complete lack of UCP to make beginners feel more confortable.

As far as the teaching of classes including moves which increase sleaze-factor is concerned, I've done classes like this myself, and my only request would have been that being slightly sexy had been a prerequesite for class entry... :whistle: (especially since I've noticed that, in general, us ladies complain much less about sleazy guys that are gorgeous than about the ones that, ahem, aren't)

RogerR
16th-June-2005, 08:07 PM
So-
1/ you want the right to accuse, attack, or assault anyone who offends your idea of good bahaviour.

then

2/ You say the boundary moves.


???????????????????????????????????

Mr Cool
16th-June-2005, 08:19 PM
It's not about hating body contact. Have you actually read the thread?
Personally, I think someone who thinks a dance has to have close moves is someone I'd advise women not to dance with. Sorry, but that's my genuine opinion.

You missed my point about saying NO everybody should be comfortable and happy with whom they dance. I know I only want to dance with ladies who truly want to dance with me, I have had unwanted advances. However i go dancing for the fun and i like to make it a drama and the pure enjoyment of dance. There are many classic dance moves that can only be performed correctly with body contact.
So please dont call close dancing dirty you will miss out on a important part of dance.
P.s. Classes like strictly sinful are not dance just fun for none dancers. :waycool: :waycool: :waycool: :waycool:

David Franklin
16th-June-2005, 08:37 PM
You missed my point about saying NO everybody should be comfortable and happy with whom they dance.No, I didn't. But there are two opposing points - firstly, people do find it very hard to say no. You may wish it otherwise, but that's a fact. I know I have ended up dancing with people I really didn't want to dance with. Secondly, someone won't be uncomfortable until after the first assault has happened. Which is too late.

Conversely, I think you've missed two of my points:

I'm not concerned about banning close moves. I am concerned with people who think it's acceptable to put their hand up a stranger's skirt or try to grab their breasts. I see no gray area, no different comfort zones. It's unacceptable. The only defense is if the other person says it's OK (and then it's still tacky IMHO).

As far as my comment to you - I do really think there's a problem if you feel a MJ dance has to have close moves. Lots of people don't like close moves. If you can't deal with a partner who doesn't want to do those things, I'm not sure MJ is the right dance for you. [N.B. a similar argument applies if you replace "close moves" with "drops"]. In all fairness, I suspect "has to" was hyperbole on your part.

David Bailey
16th-June-2005, 08:50 PM
Guys and gals if you hate body contact become lindy hoppers.
Body contact is one thing, groping is another. For me, touching boobs / bum / other intimate areas, is crossing the line.

Plus, I almost feel obliged to defend lindy-hoppers now... well, almost :whistle:


So please dont call close dancing dirty you will miss out on a important part of dance.
Um, I don't think anyone did call close dancing dirty. And I'd never throw stones in that direction myself, couldn't afford to... :whistle:

But from what I hear of moves like the "spit roast" :sick: , well, there's close dancing and there's just farcical dancing.

Gadget
16th-June-2005, 09:23 PM
So-
1/ you want the right to accuse, attack, or assault anyone who offends your idea of good bahaviour.

then

2/ You say the boundary moves.
Not quite: it's women you're talking about - they reserve the right to move the goalposts whenever it suits. What may have been alright two minuites ago is now invasive and rude and should have you neutered and hobbled.

Sorry, but the male dancing population is being branded as potential gropers and sleasebags whenever any close move or accidental physical contact occurs - I'm just re-dressing the balance: I think that you will get as many ladys "crying wolf" as you will serial sleasers. Especially if there is any "relationship" bagage.

{braced for neg rep impact...}

RogerR
16th-June-2005, 09:27 PM
..... other intimate areas, .....
.

The problem is that, as posted above the definition of "intimate" varies in the girl's mind according to the man's perceived F- factor.

(especially since I've noticed that, in general, us ladies complain much less about sleazy guys that are gorgeous ) -- Tessalicious

Mr Cool
16th-June-2005, 09:29 PM
No, I didn't. But there are two opposing points - firstly, people do find it very hard to say no. You may wish it otherwise, but that's a fact. I know I have ended up dancing with people I really didn't want to dance with. Secondly, someone won't be uncomfortable until after the first assault has happened. Which is too late.

Conversely, I think you've missed two of my points:

I'm not concerned about banning close moves. I am concerned with people who think it's acceptable to put their hand up a stranger's skirt or try to grab their breasts. I see no gray area, no different comfort zones. It's unacceptable. The only defense is if the other person says it's OK (and then it's still tacky IMHO).

As far as my comment to you - I do really think there's a problem if you feel a MJ dance has to have close moves. Lots of people don't like close moves. If you can't deal with a partner who doesn't want to do those things, I'm not sure MJ is the right dance for you. [N.B. a similar argument applies if you replace "close moves" with "drops"]. In all fairness, I suspect "has to" was hyperbole on your part.

I guess everybody has danced with partners that do not suit. However surely if a man had put his hand up a ladies skirt or fondles her inappropriately, she would refuse to dance with him again and she should speak to her friends and they too should refuse him, quickly he would find himself with no partners, end of problem.
Most MJ dancers have difficulty dancing to slow music so lets encourage close moves, do them with panache but only if your partner enjoys them too. I for one hate to see men leading the same old moves to classics like Summer Time or Fever and guys most ladies hate the same old moves too.

David Bailey
16th-June-2005, 09:48 PM
The problem is that, as posted above the definition of "intimate" varies in the girl's mind according to the man's perceived F- factor.
Sigh... I was trying to be euphemistic, guess that'll teach me. :rolleyes:

I didn't mean erogenous zones, I meant "hand up skirt" area. Clear? I suspect pretty much all women would find that a bit too intimate for a dance, call me crazy on that one, I don't care.

And just to remove all further romance and mystery from it ( :( ), I'd say that, in general:
- A man's hands should only wander up and down a lady's back, and never (OK, rarely!) up and down her front.
- Touching legs (thighs), face, neck or hair should be avoided unless you know the partner.

Blimey, I know, sounds boring as hell to mechanically dissect things like that, but at least that's clear...

Gadget
16th-June-2005, 10:14 PM
Perhaps we sould go this far then:
You have to sign a release form accepting that your instructor may hold you close, touch you and invade your personal space. (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=ourWorldNews&storyID=8706045)

RogerR
16th-June-2005, 10:43 PM
See also the BBC R2 satire "the worst week of the week" about 2210 thur 16 june on listen again. Same stoey in "I'm sorry I'll read it again" style sketch

http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/networks/radio2/aod.shtml?radio2/r2_badweek

David Franklin
16th-June-2005, 10:48 PM
Perhaps we sould go this far then:
You have to sign a release form accepting that your instructor may hold you close, touch you and invade your personal space. (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=ourWorldNews&storyID=8706045)If you're going to make a habit of moves involving putting your hand up someone's skirt, it's probably not the stupidest plan in the world. Though I have a suspicion you won't need many forms!

I didn't mean erogenous zones, I meant "hand up skirt" area. Clear? I suspect pretty much all women would find that a bit too intimate for a dance, call me crazy on that one, I don't care.Maybe we're just prudes and sexually repressed. Yeah, that must be it. :devil:

MartinHarper
16th-June-2005, 11:56 PM
I almost feel obliged to defend lindy-hoppers now...

There's not really a need for a defence. Lindy does indeed seem to have slightly less body contact, though (eg) Lindy Jig Walks are as close as anything in Ceroc. More relevantly, there's less in the way of UCP: no slo combs, no bum leads, no basket wiggles.


There are many classic dance moves that can only be performed correctly with body contact.

Name one.

spindr
17th-June-2005, 12:48 AM
There's not really a need for a defence. Lindy does indeed seem to have slightly less body contact, though (eg) Lindy Jig Walks are as close as anything in Ceroc. More relevantly, there's less in the way of UCP: no slo combs, no bum leads, no basket wiggles.

Hmmm, Messin' Around? Then of course there's all those Bal-Swing moves :)

SpinDr.

Gary
17th-June-2005, 12:57 AM
I think sleazebags are less of a problem here (Sydney) than it sounds like they are over there (maybe because we're smaller?). (Then again, I'm a boy, so maybe it's happening and I'm just not noticing and haven't heard about it).

I don't think banning the X-rated moves workshops/classes is appropriate. I went to a Mikey-inspired workshop over here, and no one with any respect for women would think of doing those sort of moves on someone they don't know (very well), whether there's an explicit disclaimer or not. My (life) partner and I found it all very tacky and sat out most of the class, but I wouldn't like to see it banned, because lots of people did seem to enjoy it.

ads
17th-June-2005, 07:34 AM
We do have problews from time to time but also we don't teach as raunchy moves that you do in the UK but my term for these people is PLUGGERS because they like plugging into the girls. So when we know one is in the area a "plugger alert" goes out to all of the ladies and then word soon spreads!

David Bailey
17th-June-2005, 09:08 AM
There's not really a need for a defence. Lindy does indeed seem to have slightly less body contact, though (eg) Lindy Jig Walks are as close as anything in Ceroc. More relevantly, there's less in the way of UCP: no slo combs, no bum leads, no basket wiggles.
Yeah but, you know, it's boring... :whistle:




There are many classic dance moves that can only be performed correctly with body contact.
Name one.
Actually, I'd second that - I can't think of any either; depends what you mean by "classic" and "body contact" of course :)


Maybe we're just prudes and sexually repressed. Yeah, that must be it. :devil:
Yup, that's me down to a T - I'm Mr Repressed, just ask anyone...

Lou
17th-June-2005, 09:37 AM
I'm not concerned about banning close moves. I am concerned with people who think it's acceptable to put their hand up a stranger's skirt or try to grab their breasts. I see no gray area, no different comfort zones. It's unacceptable. The only defense is if the other person says it's OK (and then it's still tacky IMHO).
Even in that, there's a grey area. Occasionally, particularly if the lady is "ample bosomed" :whistle:, it's hard to tell whether the touch is accidental, or deliberate. I've had a couple of dances where I've not been sure the first time - then had to jokingly ask the man what he thinks he's doing the next. That normally works.

David Franklin
17th-June-2005, 09:53 AM
Even in that, there's a grey area. Occasionally, particularly if the lady is "ample bosomed" :whistle:, it's hard to tell whether the touch is accidental, or deliberate. I've had a couple of dances where I've not been sure the first time - then had to jokingly ask the man what he thinks he's doing the next. That normally works.I understand what you're saying - I remember one lady so "ample" even a first move involved a fair level of contact. But in getting on for 10 years of dancing, I've never grabbed (as opposed to brushed etc.) someone's breasts, other than when a move went really wrong (i.e. it was a case of "if I hadn't grabbed you, you'd have landed on your head").

Lou
17th-June-2005, 09:57 AM
I understand what you're saying - I remember one lady so "ample" even a first move involved a fair level of contact. But in getting on for 10 years of dancing, I've never grabbed (as opposed to brushed etc.) someone's breasts, other than when a move went really wrong (i.e. it was a case of "if I hadn't grabbed you, you'd have landed on your head").
:rofl:
:blush: Sorry! But the image really made me laugh.

spindr
17th-June-2005, 10:12 AM
I think sleazebags are less of a problem here (Sydney) than it sounds like they are over there (maybe because we're smaller?). (Then again, I'm a boy, so maybe it's happening and I'm just not noticing and haven't heard about it).
I'm getting flashbacks to "Crocodile Dundee" -- maybe your dancers aren't as "hands-on" as Mick was in the party scene.

#Hey there you with the sad face...#

SpinDr.

Petal
17th-June-2005, 10:42 AM
Sleazebags exist/thrive/survive in the MJ scene for 2 reasons.

i) Some women actually like them. :eek:

:

:confused: Can't be many women like that.

Petal
17th-June-2005, 10:48 AM
I don't think anyone has said that 500 people were sleazy because they took part in the class.........It has already been stated that the VAST majority of people who attended the class enjoyed it and didn't use it as an excuse to molest anyone. But there are always the rogue few..... ....

I, and a couple of my friends didn't take part in the uc&p classes at southport because of the risk of "sleaze" and we don't have fixed partners. But we were taught the moves later in the day by a guy we know well and trust, and it was all done in the "best possible taste" and a lot of laughter.

Petal
17th-June-2005, 10:52 AM
However surely if a man had put his hand up a ladies skirt or fondles her inappropriately, she would refuse to dance with him again and she should speak to her friends and they too should refuse him, .

:clap: :yeah:

Will
17th-June-2005, 11:51 AM
Name one.
The Sweeping Layback.

Andy McGregor
17th-June-2005, 01:03 PM
Name one.The Cheek to Cheek :whistle:

CJ
17th-June-2005, 01:07 PM
Name one.

The move is the Lean, but I shall name him "Martin."

Dreadful Scathe
17th-June-2005, 01:22 PM
You have to sign a release form accepting that your instructor may hold you close, touch you and invade your personal space.


ooer missus - does this happen all in one move ? :)

Will
17th-June-2005, 01:22 PM
Yes, but apart from :

- The Sweeping Layback
- Cheek to Cheek
- and The Lean (a.k.a. Martin)

...what have the Romans ever done for us?

CJ
17th-June-2005, 01:26 PM
Yes, but apart from :

- The Sweeping Layback
- Cheek to Cheek
- and The Lean (a.k.a. Martin)

...what have the Romans ever done for us?

What do you mean, "what have the Romans ever done for us"?!?!?!?

*looks round shiftily*

Ere, you're not in People's Front of Judea are you??

Clive Long
17th-June-2005, 01:27 PM
Ere, you're not in People's Front of Judea are you??
No, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Judea

Will
17th-June-2005, 01:44 PM
No, the Popular Front for the Liberation of Judea
Splitter!






Sorry - that was amazingly predictable wasn't it.

Lou
17th-June-2005, 02:03 PM
Will and Clive - go and join CJ on the naughty step. :angry:

Lory
17th-June-2005, 02:10 PM
Splitter!

I don't like the sound of THAT move! :whistle:

Purple Sparkler
17th-June-2005, 02:11 PM
Will and Clive - go and join CJ on the naughty step. :angry:

Which one? The Sweeping Layback, the Martin or the Cheek to Cheek? :na:

David Franklin
17th-June-2005, 02:25 PM
I don't like the sound of THAT move! :whistle:Honestly, it doesn't hurt once you've done it once...

johnah
17th-June-2005, 03:26 PM
When the girl in the first incident told me what had happened, I told her she should in form John or Wes, as they would most definately deal with it, but I don't know if she did............

Sorry to go off on a rant, but I know that Both John and Wes put an incredible amount of time and effort to put together the best weekender in the country. I also know for a fact, that if they received complaints about behaviour of this kind, they would act on it immediately.

No-one informed us of any such incidents whilst we were at Southport, had a certain lady have done at the time, make no mistake - we would have taken immediate action and had the perpetrator ejected from the site. Both Wes and I have spoken to the lady subsequently, and we are both deeply concerned by the distress she has been caused.

We both wish she had spoken to us at the time of this disgraceful incident, because we would have made an example of this sleazebag! After the weekender, we can do very little, but we have a description and we are trying to identify him. If we can positively, beyond reasonable doubt, then he will be banned from ever attending our events again! That's how serious we deem this kind of action to be! It's totally unacceptable behaviour.

But ladies, for us to deal with such incidents, we have to be told immediately if such occurs. Only then can we deal with it in the manner warranted! And, if any sleazebag is reading this you have been WARNED!

Minnie M
17th-June-2005, 03:51 PM
No-one informed us of any such incidents whilst we were at Southport, had a certain lady have done at the time, make no mistake - we would have taken immediate action and had the perpetrator ejected from the site. Both Wes and I have spoken to the lady subsequently, and we are both deeply concerned by the distress she has been caused.

We both wish she had spoken to us at the time of this disgraceful incident, because we would have made an example of this sleazebag! After the weekender, we can do very little, but we have a description and we are trying to identify him. If we can positively, beyond reasonable doubt, then he will be banned from ever attending our events again! That's how serious we deem this kind of action to be! It's totally unacceptable behaviour.

But ladies, for us to deal with such incidents, we have to be told immediately if such occurs. Only then can we deal with it in the manner warranted! And, if any sleazebag is reading this you have been WARNED!

:yeah: :clap: :yeah: :clap: :yeah:

Dance Demon
17th-June-2005, 04:33 PM
No-one informed us of any such incidents whilst we were at Southport, had a certain lady have done at the time, make no mistake - we would have taken immediate action and had the perpetrator ejected from the site. Both Wes and I have spoken to the lady subsequently, and we are both deeply concerned by the distress she has been caused.

We both wish she had spoken to us at the time of this disgraceful incident, because we would have made an example of this sleazebag! After the weekender, we can do very little, but we have a description and we are trying to identify him. If we can positively, beyond reasonable doubt, then he will be banned from ever attending our events again! That's how serious we deem this kind of action to be! It's totally unacceptable behaviour.

But ladies, for us to deal with such incidents, we have to be told immediately if such occurs. Only then can we deal with it in the manner warranted! And, if any sleazebag is reading this you have been WARNED!


:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:
Exactly the response I told her she would get from you John.........I think she was just so taken aback at the time that she didn't know how to deal with it......But great reassurance from you and Wes John...I hope all the ladies take heed :worthy: :worthy:

Andy McGregor
17th-June-2005, 05:50 PM
But ladies, for us to deal with such incidents, we have to be told immediately if such occurs. Only then can we deal with it in the manner warranted! And, if any sleazebag is reading this you have been WARNED!And what will you do when a lady complains that a guy did the sleazy move during the lesson when that move is that one the teacher was actually teaching? Or a lady complains that a guy did the sleazy move in freestyle that the guy was taught in the "moves from porn' lesson? The guy has the, not unreasonable, defence that he was just doing something that was taught at the actual weekend :angry:

RogerR
17th-June-2005, 07:30 PM
And please what do the organisers do when they get a description that describes half the attendees. Ladies you must be your own best friend before anyone can help. Prompt reporting and accurate neo-unique description preferably within only a few minutes. If a promoter humiliates the WRONG person they MUST EXPECT to be on the wrong end of a court case, and would be looking at a legal bill of four to five figures.

djtrev
18th-June-2005, 12:44 AM
Quote from Sparkles
Granted that the cabaret team needed extra time to get ready (and I know this is not your fault and am in no way blaming you) - but there are ways and ways of keeping a crowd entertained and I did not appreciate the manner in which it was done this time round.
Maybe less offensive diversions can be thought up in case a similar event happens again?

I know Mikey is not the most popular person on this forum-there I've said it-and he knows it;but really, give the guy a break.He was the compere for the evening and he obviously had to fill in some awkward gaps.What did you expect him to do-read you a story!!This is Mikey we are talking about not Mother Theresa.
Embarrasing,cringeworthy.Maybe;but offensive.Surely not.
As I recall,there was one particular guy in the parade,dressed as a woman,who was far more embarrasing and cringworthy than anything Mikey served up.

Andy McGregor
18th-June-2005, 01:13 AM
I know Mikey is not the most popular person on this forum-there I've said it-and he knows it;but really, give the guy a break.
There are deserving causes that deserve a break. But, why should we give Mikey one? As far as I can see, most of us on here have a vision of the direction that MJ should go in the future - that vision does not contain any moves called the "spit-roast" that Mikey taught in his "menage a trois" lesson at Bognor. And, for me it MJ is not "strictly sinful". It is a dance form as taught by the likes of Nigel and Nina.

I am joining Gus in his statement;

Someone earlier made the point that people can vote with their feet. I make a point of avoiding any event where a certain teacher appears and have told organisers that if they use him I wont teach or DJ for them. Not much of a threat but its a start.I know I'd love to DJ a 70s Soul and Motown themed night at Camber but I will follow the lead of Gus in this. Sometimes we need to make a stand, and I am making one for decency and for MJ being a dance form rather than a simulated sex act :tears:

djtrev
18th-June-2005, 01:27 AM
Andy,everybody on this forum is well aware of your position regarding strictly sinful classes and a certain teacher.Thats is your perogative.But this has nothing to do with that.
At the risk of repeating myself;Mikey was asked to compere the cabaret.It would seem he had to 'pad it out a bit'.It was a bit of harmless somewhat embarrasing nonsense.Certainly not offensive.

Andy McGregor
18th-June-2005, 01:32 AM
Andy,everybody on this forum is well aware of your position regarding strictly sinful classes and a certain teacher.Thats is your perogative.But this has nothing to do with that.
At the risk of repeating myself;Mikey was asked to compere the cabaret.It would seem he had to 'pad it out a bit'.It was a bit of harmless somewhat embarrasing nonsense.Certainly not offensive.I wasn't there so I have only second-hand information to go by. The people that told me what happenned were offended! Perhaps you'd like to describe what happenned so we can all make our own decision.

djtrev
18th-June-2005, 01:58 AM
I am not aware that I missed anything but I can only assume that the offending item during the cabaret was the 'underpants' break.Three men were 'persuaded' to go backstage and remove all their clothes and return to the dancefloor wearing what looked like mens G-string style pants.In the event,apparently,they all decided not to.Perhaps,they were told not to bother as it was a bit of a wind up to fill in a gap in the proceedings,we will never know.
Hang on!!While writing this reply I have just recalled another 'fill in'.I am definately getting old and forgetful.
You are referring to the pole dancing item.
Yes I have to agree I can see where somebody could be offended by what went on there.
But in Mikey's defence(please dont pick me up on this as well) although he introduced it, it was the ladies who made it offensive.Especially the first one
who simulated oral sex(censor me if you dare admin)The other two were tame by comparison.
With respect I shall withdraw my previous comments and apologise to anybody that I may have offended.

Dance Demon
18th-June-2005, 02:20 AM
I think that we are being a bit harsh on Mikey in this instance,. compereing the cabaret spots is a very difficult thing to do. No doubt mikey had the whole thing thought out, then he was asked to fill in & ad lib to allow time for the two members of the Spaced Out team to get ready. To his credit, he managed this by doing what he did. With regards to the underwear thing, it was Mikey himself who told the guys not to put it on and it was explained to them that he was only trying to fill in time. The pole dancing thing was just harmless fun, although as has been stated, one girl maybe went a bit far, however Mikey wasn't to know she was going to do this. it would have been even more cringeworthy, if he had just left long silences and made apologies for the lateness of the two cabaret members.
While we might not all agree with some of the things Mikey does, lets not get carried away with criticism just for criticisms sake.Most likely he would rather not have had to do the fillling in bits,, but given the circumstances i think he coped very well.

djtrev
18th-June-2005, 02:24 AM
Quote from DD
I think that we are being a bit harsh on Mikey in this instance,. compereing the cabaret spots is a very difficult thing to do. No doubt mikey had the whole thing thought out, then he was asked to fill in & ad lib to allow time for the two members of the Spaced Out team to get ready. To his credit, he managed this by doing what he did. With regards to the underwear thing, it was Mikey himself who told the guys not to put it on and it was explained to them that he was only trying to fill in time. The pole dancing thing was just harmless fun, although as has been stated, one girl maybe went a bit far, however Mikey wasn't to know she was going to do this. it would have been even more cringeworthy, if he had just left long silences and made apologies for the lateness of the two cabaret members.
While we might not all agree with some of the things Mikey does, lets not get carried away with criticism just for criticisms sake.Most likely he would rather not have had to do the fillling in bits,, but given the circumstances i think he coped very well.

:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

RogerR
18th-June-2005, 07:48 AM
A freestyle dance is by definition a variable item. Also the definition of "too sleazy" is variable from girl to girl and according to her opinion of how attractive the man involved is. And Yes some girls are "serial victims" by their own actions -- as an ambulance driver I see girls going into hostels after abusive partners several times before they realise that They also have to change.

We put our promoters into a lose-lose situation. By the end of anyone's first year's dancing they will have come into body contact with someone, in the queue or by, or on the floor. Most contacts will be instantly regarded as harmless accident, but IF we expect promoters to take positive action they must take them responsibly and to an accepted standard. I remember being "tapped on the shoulder" by a promoter for leading a seducer as a "Forbidden Airstep" on a spacious floor on the day he had taught the seducer in his intermediate class. I still regard this man as brilliant but insane and irrational - teach a move then ban its use????? All people have diferent ideas of personal space one of my female work coleagues regards a hug and a kiss as "saying Hello" even while her GF is watching. another says hello from 10 paces. My crew partner is a muslim man and I've met his wife but not seen her as she wears the hijab and it would offend them seriously to shake her hand - unaccptable body contact.

And we expect our promoters to know and understand all the variables and take strong action on the basis of
!/ hearing later,
2/From a third party,
3/that someones variable personal space was invaded,
4/beyond their variable tolerance point
5/ by a person nearly six feet tall wearing a black shirt black trousers and black shoes with dark receding hair ie one of about 50% of the men there.

Then you want the promoter to publicly humiliate this person and take action against them putting themselves at risk of a libel suit especially if they have "got the wrong man"

Only if the "offence" comes into the realm of the statute law sexual offences will the police become involved and they will NEED immediate and positive identification of the victim and the accused.

Who'd be a promoter!!!!!!!!!!

under par
18th-June-2005, 09:11 AM
Who'd be a promoter!!!!!!!!!!

Who'd be a VICTIM!!!!!!!!!!

point one..... EDUCATE all they do not have to put with anything they feel uncomfortable.

point two........ inform all that the FIRST response to any action that feels uncomfortable is to ASK person to STOP.

point three......... if actions continue after being asked to STOP. LEAVE dance floor immediatley CONSIDERr telling promoter organiser verbally or by writing details on clearly located report forms.

most people will take a request to stop an action as a warning. IF they then continue then that should be considered as intentional.

Therefore giving poor old promoters every oppurtunity to have relevant evidence to challenge said individual about their behaviour on dancefloor.

As stated all peoples perceptions of what is inappropriate are very different so promoter will have to be an arbiter how bad said inappropriateness is.

Minor matters reported may not be dealt with straight away BUT the promoter will have a record of what occurred and MAYBE the minor matters may start to add up with certain repeat offenders a pattern may appear and this will now become apparent to promoter as it does NOT now.

Victims will have support and feel their concerns can and are being dealt with.

RogerR
18th-June-2005, 10:14 AM
Having been a victim of a girl who had never even met or spoken to me making "unspecified accusations if sexual impropriety" to the college where we both studied, and finding that they had found me guilty BEFORE any contact with me and finding that they refused me a reference despite being the best student ever on the course. I would DEFINITELY sue anyone who made unspecified unproven complaint against me and would DEFINITELY look for MAJOR compensation if I had been Libelled or slandered - publicly humilliated.

NO-ONE should be a victim and the promoter has the unenviable task of trying to retain a good reputation in accordance with the varying opinions of good taste and dance style There are some obvious extreme cases where the promoter should involve the police, and there are many examples of couples enjoying a happy and harmless dance. There are some cases where the "invasion of personal space" offends some but not others and the promoter has the task of satisfying all parties at all times ----- The Comb is an accredited move prob on the beginners list but is also the subject of complaints!!!!!??????

Dreadful Scathe
18th-June-2005, 10:34 AM
PS Smirf you where fab too. Best dance we very had .....thanks x

SMIRF ?? Whats a SMIRF ? You're going the right way for a spanking young lady :)

Little Monkey
18th-June-2005, 12:38 PM
Just to add my thoughts (again) to the whole Mikey discussion....

IMHO it would have been nice to just have some more freestyle dancing, then bring on the rest of the cabarets later. My feet and my back were in total agony by the end of it all, it just dragged on for too long. As for Mikey, I will in future vote with my feet - I don't like his classes and his "entertainment", but then nobody's forcing me to attend or watch, are they? I can simply choose not to go to his classes, and can just walk out if he's in charge of the entertainment. And so can everyone else if they don't like it!

Saying that, in Southport I was squashed up at the far end of the hall, unable to get out even if I'd wanted to! :( So I watched his entertainment, and thought it was thoroughly embarrassing and distasteful, made more so by one of the ladies in the 'pole dancing'.... :eek:

I peeked in at Mikey's 'Mr. Bombastic' class last weekend, and thought it was cringeworthy and just yuc! Most of the guys seemed to enjoy it, though (and there were lots more of them than there were women!!), and surely if people thought it was horrible, they could have just walked out?? But I do second the opinion voiced by other forumites in other threads: Teachers should make a point to explain that these moves are not suitable for the social dance floor, or for dancing with people who are unprepared for them! They are just 'fun' ( :confused: ) moves to be done with a partner/close friend, not to be inflicted on innocent strangers....

Anyway, that's just my opinions....

LM

jivecat
18th-June-2005, 12:47 PM
NO-ONE should be a victim and the promoter has the unenviable task of trying to retain a good reputation in accordance with the varying opinions of good taste and dance style

Has the reputation of the Southport event suffered as a result of one, isolated, event, beyond the power of the organisers to control, and which clearly, they would have dealt with if they had known about?

Do weekenders, or MJ events, in general, have a bad reputation as being dens of iniquity where no woman is safe?

Are there any MJ venues with such a poor reputation that women, in droves, will not go for fear of molestation?

I would suggest the answer to all these questions is no, which puts the problem into proportion.

So can we just stick with the sensible, down to earth, unhysterical policies suggested by Under Par, Silver Fox and others. Publish them clearly in the literature and the venues, keep a log of complaints, issue warnings systematically, deal with any serial patterns that emerge and get on with the dancing.

Andy McGregor
18th-June-2005, 02:24 PM
I think that we are being a bit harsh on Mikey in this instance,. compereing the cabaret spots is a very difficult thing to do. No doubt mikey had the whole thing thought out, then he was asked to fill in & ad lib to allow time for the two members of the Spaced Out team to get ready. To his credit, he managed this by doing what he did. With regards to the underwear thing, it was Mikey himself who told the guys not to put it on and it was explained to them that he was only trying to fill in time. The pole dancing thing was just harmless fun, although as has been stated, one girl maybe went a bit far, however Mikey wasn't to know she was going to do this.Being the compere is a difficult job where you sometimes need to ad-lib to fill in time. And people do it every day without resorting to sleaze. It should come as no suprise that someone chooses to simulate oral sex when asked to perform by a person who teaches a routine to hundreds of people where a woman having simulated sex and oral sex with two men at the same time (a la menage a trois).


But I do second the opinion voiced by other forumites in other threads: Teachers should make a point to explain that these moves are not suitable for the social dance floor, or for dancing with people who are unprepared for them! They are just 'fun' moves to be done with a partner/close friend, not to be inflicted on innocent strangers....One of the problems with this is that people are not there for the whole lesson to hear the warning. And why teach a class that requires that warning? As I've said before, it is my opinion that our dance is lessened by the teaching of simulated moves from pornography. One thing we should consider is the affect the wide publicity of this type of lesson could cause. What would be the result if a weekender were to receive a visit from a TV crew and the teaching of moves like the "spit roast" were televised? Many nice people might be put off trying MJ that we would love to see at the classes. And, more worryingly, some people might be attracted to MJ classes that we would rather NOT see attending :tears:

Andy McGregor
18th-June-2005, 02:29 PM
The Comb is an accredited move prob on the beginners list but is also the subject of complaints!!!!!??????I must be teaching the comb wrongly. Where is the inappropriate contact? :confused:

Gus
18th-June-2005, 03:16 PM
I peeked in at Mikey's 'Mr. Bombastic' class last weekend, and thought it was cringeworthy and just yuc! Most of the guys seemed to enjoy it, though (and there were lots more of them than there were women!!), and surely if people thought it was horrible, they could have just walked out??Fair comment. My problem is, as a teacher of UCP, when I get asked is what I teach similar to Mikey's? :tears: I have to explain, NO ... mine involves close moves but it also includes dancing, a significant difference. :wink: :whistle:

fletch
18th-June-2005, 04:22 PM
Well, first of all can I say "hello" to everyone on the forum.

I learnt about the forum after dancing with some of it's members and thought it sounded like a great place to log onto and chat. But, upon reading what has being written here I am shocked ! I had got the impression it was going to be a pleasant place where everyone chat happily about dance, but having read some of what is here and noting some of the very personal attacks it certainly left me wondering whether to join or not sadly.

But i have decided to join if only to be blunt, since i am known for being outspoken by my friends. i think some of the attacks on Mikey as a teacher are rather shameful, seems to me he is a rather easy target due to his popularity, in my opinion if Mikey was not doing the classes he is, or he stopped, it would not be long before his shoes were filled by someone else anyway ! The amount of people who attend his classes and certainly seem to have fun at them were even friends of mine and i can assure you, they did not return perverts as a result. I did the latin passion taught by Mikey and enjoyed it as did all the crowd with me, male and female alike, none of us or anyone else i spoke to felt it to be perverse in anyway ? He did talk about and warn both men and women not to cause offence with strangers when dancing, which was fair i thought, but what more could he or any other teacher do ?


Viktor (men's styling) and Robert&Nikki (close moves) both taught moves that were arguably inappropriate with complete strangers. Not up to Mikey's standards, of course.

I was taught a move called "The Tart" along with a few others,last thursday by one of the guys that he learnt in Nicky and Roberts class over the weekend. certainly as full on as anything Mikey taught at the weekend. Should they be banned and slatted for teaching those moves ? are they ? no, only it seems Mikey ? I wondered why ?




And what will you do when a lady complains that a guy did the sleazy move during the lesson when that move is that one the teacher was actually teaching? Or a lady complains that a guy did the sleazy move in freestyle that the guy was taught in the "moves from porn' lesson? The guy has the, not unreasonable, defence that he was just doing something that was taught at the actual weekend :angry:

So who, Andy are you talking about here ? One individual or all that taught or teach anything you feel is inappropriate ? Are you saying Viktor, Mikey, Robert and Nicky along with anyone else who dare teach beyond the norm ( up close and personal moves )be banned ? And then shall you have a huge debate and attack those that replace them ? I am sorry this may seem a lot for a first post, but i did sit and read before deciding to join, as the sight of all this had initially put me off and has put of some of my friends too. Who now have decided not to join the forum.
Some people have said they will vote with their feet, are you not cutting your own nose of to spoil your face, ( something like that ) surely this is a choice we all have and do so in all aspects of life ? there are individuals in every aspect of life who are over bearing sexually, in work, at clubs, pubs, everywhere anyone can go. But we are all grown ups and if behaviour is wrong, we deal with it as we see fit. If it was way beyond acceptability we make decisions on how to deal with it, publicly, privately, legally...


My thought s as a woman on this whole issue is that men most men dance and judge the reactions of dance partners. If they have lots of eye contact and smiles on both sides, they get closer. if that closeness is not wanted, most men note it and any woman would show it was not wanted. In general people love to dance for it's contact, it's fun, it's flirting on occasions, but yes sadly there are a very very small number of people ( i am sure men and women alike ) who overstep acceptability and have no regard for how their dance partner is reacting, but they are everywhere as i said before, work, pubs, clubs and yes, at dance !

Will stopping Viktor (who, by the way I had a wonderful and sexy dance with, hope i didn't scare him ), Mikey ( whom i also danced with and was just as sexy and did not overstep any mark, even doing moves he had taught that weekend ) , Robert and Nicky ( sorry, no dance to compare, not sure Nicky might have said yes ! ) actually stop individuals from going to far ? no, i think not, they would be doing it anyway, regardless of what or whomever taught them, and that is the reality.

I do think that pushing notes and over doing the BE WARNED perves about will just as quickly stop people joining our dance world as much as anyone who actually read some of what i have seen on this forum, which is a real shame, truly.! I do not think much more can be done than is already done by most teachers, (yes including your best friend Mikey, Andy) to combat this, other than any lady or Man ( lets not be sexist here) who feels they have had their personal space invaded in an unwanted fashion bring it to the attention of the organiser at the time, not later, or days later, tell a friend, who tells a friend, who might possibly (chinese whispers) get things wrong and then put it up on a public discussion and blame the teachers who are in the public eye.

My last note, which i had forgotten earlier, was to ask who taught the move at Southport where a man was told to put his hand up a woman's skirt ? i did mikeys classes, my friends did Robert and Nickys, and the also Viktors was covered, never seen or heard of the move being taught ? So why is the action of an individual be accredited to the teachers for the offence caused to the lady in question ? i sincerely hope the next time anything like that happens any person has the sense to tell an organiser, so they can make a note. Should an organiser then find that the same individual has being complained about on different occasions, they can decide on an action and deal with it ! Or if the complaint was strong enough, deal with it immediately !

I really hope no one is offended by my post and if you are, I am sure you will tell me so from what i have read thus far.

Fletch

fletch
18th-June-2005, 04:25 PM
I must be teaching the comb wrongly. Where is the inappropriate contact? :confused:

Not being a woman, you may not realise it, but some moves as simple as the Comb and even the Basket variations can and have being made very close and personal by men, they can do it with any move if it is thier mind to do so, thats the reality, you need to grasp :sad:

fletch
18th-June-2005, 04:28 PM
Who'd be a VICTIM!!!!!!!!!!

point one..... EDUCATE all they do not have to put with anything they feel uncomfortable.

point two........ inform all that the FIRST response to any action that feels uncomfortable is to ASK person to STOP.

point three......... if actions continue after being asked to STOP. LEAVE dance floor immediatley CONSIDERr telling promoter organiser verbally or by writing details on clearly located report forms.

most people will take a request to stop an action as a warning. IF they then continue then that should be considered as intentional.

Therefore giving poor old promoters every oppurtunity to have relevant evidence to challenge said individual about their behaviour on dancefloor.

As stated all peoples perceptions of what is inappropriate are very different so promoter will have to be an arbiter how bad said inappropriateness is.

Minor matters reported may not be dealt with straight away BUT the promoter will have a record of what occurred and MAYBE the minor matters may start to add up with certain repeat offenders a pattern may appear and this will now become apparent to promoter as it does NOT now.

Victims will have support and feel their concerns can and are being dealt with.

:yeah: :yeah: :yeah: and I now realise who you are, thank you for my dance in the early hours of Monday and can i say you and your wife looked fab in costume :grin:

mick
18th-June-2005, 04:34 PM
Whitley Bay Academy of Musicality Summer School 2005
practical classes for ladies, addressing "Dealing With The Sleazebag"
by our residential Jujitsu master
techniques including: Face Slapping, The Knee In The Testicles, and Effective Use Of The Elbow

by popular request we are also including "Toe Stamping, for beginners and improvers".

Little Monkey
18th-June-2005, 05:01 PM
Fair comment. My problem is, as a teacher of UCP, when I get asked is what I teach similar to Mikey's? :tears: I have to explain, NO ... mine involves close moves but it also includes dancing, a significant difference. :wink: :whistle:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Ha-ha-ha!!! Aaaaah (Monkey wiping away tears of laughter....)

Yes, there's not much 'dancing' in Mikey's class(es) (I have only witnessed the one), unless you count pole-dancing?


One of the problems with this is that people are not there for the whole lesson to hear the warning. And why teach a class that requires that warning? As I've said before, it is my opinion that our dance is lessened by the teaching of simulated moves from pornography. One thing we should consider is the affect the wide publicity of this type of lesson could cause. What would be the result if a weekender were to receive a visit from a TV crew and the teaching of moves like the "spit roast" were televised? Many nice people might be put off trying MJ that we would love to see at the classes. And, more worryingly, some people might be attracted to MJ classes that we would rather NOT see attending

I do agree..... Was just trying to say that people do also have the choice of walking out if they don't like what they're getting served, and that there should be a warning label attached for people who naively think that this kind of dancing belongs on a social dance floor. But yeah, if people are not there at the beginning of the class to hear the warning, and lack the social skills to know the difference between indecent behaviour and socially acceptable behavior, it won't help... :sad: It seems like Mikey's classes are quite popular, but maybe he should not be invited to teach at venues such as Southport, so that people won't get the wrong idea of what's socially acceptable on the dance floor? I don't know. :confused:

Humble Little Monkey (No Oracle) :whistle:

fletch
18th-June-2005, 05:14 PM
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Ha-ha-ha!!! Aaaaah (Monkey wiping away tears of laughter....)

Yes, there's not much 'dancing' in Mikey's class(es) (I have only witnessed the one), unless you count pole-dancing?



I do agree..... Was just trying to say that people do also have the choice of walking out if they don't like what they're getting served, and that there should be a warning label attached for people who naively think that this kind of dancing belongs on a social dance floor. But yeah, if people are not there at the beginning of the class to hear the warning, and lack the social skills to know the difference between indecent behaviour and socially acceptable behavior, it won't help... :sad: It seems like Mikey's classes are quite popular, but maybe he should not be invited to teach at venues such as Southport, so that people won't get the wrong idea of what's socially acceptable on the dance floor? I don't know. :confused:

Humble Little Monkey (No Oracle) :whistle:

so let me get this straight, you and gus, along with the chap Andy magregor all think that mikey's popular classes as you stated should not be allowed and his livlihod efected because you all disaprove ? you yourself state above you have only ever witnessed one class ! I am inclined to think your following like a lamb instead of actually making an informed opinion.
I can tell you as one of a crowd who attended his classes he does give warnings at the beginning, during when teaching certain moves and key points, not forgetiing the end and his final words. but then, you don't like his classes and obviously you would not know that as a fact would you ? And it seems Andy and Gus do not even attend events he teaches at, but they to think he should have his livlihood taken away too.. sounds more like jealousy rather than anything concrete and i doubt many would see it differently after reading al the comments in some of thse posts.
i do not even know Mikey personally and i have now found myself fighting his corner, it seems few on here stand up for him and i wondered why he is not on here himself to answer your remarks, but if he was, would you still be so forward i wonder ? :what:

fletch
18th-June-2005, 05:19 PM
I have a question for Gus, Andy and little monkey..
"Do you find your attitude and comments regarding Mikey, whom some of you have only ever seen teach once, to be socially acceptable behaviour ?" :whistle: personally, I am embarrassed for you.. :blush:

Feelingpink
18th-June-2005, 05:32 PM
I have a question for Gus, Andy and little monkey..
"Do you find your attitude and comments regarding someone, whom some of you have only ever sen teach once, to be socially acceptable behaviour ?" :whistle:

Fletch,

I know you have only just joined ... but some of the people you mention above have been around for years (and I mean that in the nicest possible way :hug: ) and have reasons for posting what they have ... and for what they don't. I can understand that newly having arrived on the forum there seem to be some strong comments - some of these are and some are tongue-in-cheek. If you want to be flag-waving supporter of Mikey, that's your right - go ahead. But if you're the kind of person who thinks it is prudent to find out about office politics while in the first weeks of a new job before aligning yourself to anyone, you might want to apply the same principle here.

There are some very, very nice people on the forum ... and I hope you get to meet some more of them, dance with them, share cake and generally hang out with them as well as sharing dance & other thoughts on here.

Banana Man
18th-June-2005, 05:35 PM
/SNIP/
I do agree..... Was just trying to say that people do also have the choice of walking out if they don't like what they're getting served, and that there should be a warning label attached for people who naively think that this kind of dancing belongs on a social dance floor. But yeah, if people are not there at the beginning of the class to hear the warning, and lack the social skills to know the difference between indecent behaviour and socially acceptable behavior, it won't help... :sad: It seems like Mikey's classes are quite popular, but maybe he should not be invited to teach at venues such as Southport, so that people won't get the wrong idea of what's socially acceptable on the dance floor? I don't know. :confused:

Humble Little Monkey (No Oracle) :whistle:

I agree with LMs sentiments, and that this is confusing area. FWIW although I didn't do any of them, it sounds like the close moves and "naughty" workshops were really popular. What's acceptable to one person might be offensive to another, and similarly what's okay with a regular partner might be uncomfortable with a stranger.

Mikey is booked to teach because (IMHO) he is popular. Personally I don't like what he teaches much, but I do think he deserves to teach at events like Southport and hats off to J&W for putting on classes to please all tastes and all levels. I do worry about unacceptable behaviour, but I think it is ridiculous and dangerous to try to link specific teachers or the teaching of close or lewd moves to an assault (actual or attempted).

There have been other posts on the forum (a few by ESG I think) where new dancers have found some beginners moves uncomfortable because contact/touching other than handholding was involved. This surely illustrates the difficulty of finding common levels of acceptability. It is difficult to please all of the punters all of the time. I think Southport must have come pretty close do doing that. :worthy:

It's a shame that some of the threads on the forum are now turning into veiled (or sometimes blatant) personal attacks (not just against Mikey) that seem to be repeated ad nauseam. :angry:



from Sleazebags thread http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=126937&postcount=101
I learnt about the forum after dancing with some of it's members and thought it sounded like a great place to log onto and chat. But, upon reading what has being written here I am shocked ! I had got the impression it was going to be a pleasant place where everyone chat happily about dance, but having read some of what is here and noting some of the very personal attacks it certainly left me wondering whether to join or not sadly.
:yeah: 'nuff said

fletch
18th-June-2005, 05:45 PM
Fletch,

I know you have only just joined ... but some of the people you mention above have been around for years (and I mean that in the nicest possible way :hug: ) and have reasons for posting what they have ... and for what they don't. I can understand that newly having arrived on the forum there seem to be some strong comments - some of these are and some are tongue-in-cheek. If you want to be flag-waving supporter of Mikey, that's your right - go ahead. But if you're the kind of person who thinks it is prudent to find out about office politics while in the first weeks of a new job before aligning yourself to anyone, you might want to apply the same principle here.

There are some very, very nice people on the forum ... and I hope you get to meet some more of them, dance with them, share cake and generally hang out with them as well as sharing dance & other thoughts on here.

Thank you for the heads up, but i did take the time to read a lot of the past as well as recent and then made my comments. But regardless of how long someone has being around, does not give them grandad rights to make some of thier comments, and i am able to explain any comment I make, I sadly see little other than vendetta in some posts with little or no explanation. I also note that several other members have passed comments on this very fact and i am sure they have being around some time too..
But i posted my thoughts on what I read, as they did or are you saying i need to earn the right to do so first ?

Little Monkey
18th-June-2005, 05:54 PM
I have a question for Gus, Andy and little monkey..
"Do you find your attitude and comments regarding Mikey, whom some of you have only ever seen teach once, to be socially acceptable behaviour ?" :whistle: personally, I am embarrassed for you.. :blush:

Dear oh dear....?

Are you trying to take everything we say very personally?

To put some things straight - Yes, I do think it is socially acceptable to have an opinion about someone's dance class..... I am not having a go at Mikey, he's teaching style just not my cup of tea, and as I have pointed out several times already, if people have a problem with his classes, NOBODY'S FORCING THEM TO ATTEND!

I did not say that I consider Mikey's classes to be 'not socially acceptable', just that people attending them should be aware that doing what they were taught in some of Mikey's clases on a social dance floor, with an unsuspecting, innocent partner is not socially acceptable. Unfortunately, as seen at Southport, some people did not listen to Mikey's warnings during his class, and tried to do these very UPC moves with people who really didn't want that kind of contact with a stranger on a dancefloor. This upset some people. This is why we're having this discussion. I was on the receiving end of this kind of dancing myself, and was less than amused. The person I danced with obviously paid no attention to what Mikey's warnings at all, and thought that he could use these moves with whoever he wished. :sick:

As I said, I do think his classes are popular, so obviously the guy is doing something right? I do not want Mikey to loose his livelyhood, just pointing out that this kind of class might not be the right thing to teach at venues like Southport? I'm sure there's other things he can teach, or maybe just tone the sexual content of the class down slightly for this kind of venue? I'm glad you enjoy his classes - proving the point that Mikey is a good teacher.

Oh, and by the way. My opinions are not based on the single class I attended, but also by the entertainment on Saturday night, and numerous stories from friends who have attended Mikey's classes before, as well as being subjected to the moves taught in his class as mentioned above.

LM

Feelingpink
18th-June-2005, 06:07 PM
Thank you for the heads up, but i did take the time to read a lot of the past as well as recent and then made my comments. But regardless of how long someone has being around, does not give them grandad rights to make some of thier comments, and i am able to explain any comment I make, I sadly see little other than vendetta in some posts with little or no explanation. I also note that several other members have passed comments on this very fact and i am sure they have being around some time too..
But i posted my thoughts on what I read, as they did or are you saying i need to earn the right to do so first ?


You appear to be defending your right to post your opinion (without having to "earn the right") but also saying that others do not have the right to post some of their opinions. So which is it? You do not need to "earn the right" to post. EVERYONE has the right to post their opinions/comments (even the red-sequinned one :devil: ) ... within the bounds of avoiding libel/slander - that's the joy - and difficulty - of an on-line forum.

fletch
18th-June-2005, 06:10 PM
Dear oh dear....?

Are you trying to take everything we say very personally?

To put some things straight - Yes, I do think it is socially acceptable to have an opinion about someone's dance class..... I am not having a go at Mikey, he's teaching style just not my cup of tea, and as I have pointed out several times already, if people have a problem with his classes, NOBODY'S FORCING THEM TO ATTEND!

I did not say that I consider Mikey's classes to be 'not socially acceptable', just that people attending them should be aware that doing what they were taught in some of Mikey's clases on a social dance floor, with an unsuspecting, innocent partner is not socially acceptable. Unfortunately, as seen at Southport, some people did not listen to Mikey's warnings during his class, and tried to do these very UPC moves with people who really didn't want that kind of contact with a stranger on a dancefloor. This upset some people. This is why we're having this discussion. I was on the receiving end of this kind of dancing myself, and was less than amused. The person I danced with obviously paid no attention to what Mikey's warnings at all, and thought that he could use these moves with whoever he wished. :sick:

As I said, I do think his classes are popular, so obviously the guy is doing something right? I do not want Mikey to loose his livelyhood, just pointing out that this kind of class might not be the right thing to teach at venues like Southport? I'm sure there's other things he can teach, or maybe just tone the sexual content of the class down slightly for this kind of venue? I'm glad you enjoy his classes - proving the point that Mikey is a good teacher.

Oh, and by the way. My opinions are not based on the single class I attended, but also by the entertainment on Saturday night, and numerous stories from friends who have attended Mikey's classes before, as well as being subjected to the moves taught in his class as mentioned above.

LM

So your telling me that someone informed you he was executing mikey's moves from his class, which you found offensive , but continued to put up with ? Or did you stop him, as was your right ? If yes, did he continue to offend and you continue to dance with him ? just curious to know how you dealt with it ? Are you sure it was just Mikey's moves, not Viktors or Roberts and Nickys, since it has being pointed out they also taught UPC moves, how do you know it was not from thier class or any other out of interest.
My point is that the whole issue is very dangerously as BananaMan pointed out getting layed on one teachers shoulders along with comments like " he should not be allowed to teach at events like Southport, not the cleverest of moves in my personal opinion. you stated this discussion was due to unwanted moves bu an individual, the wrong is in people attributing the blame to Mikey alone, who saidd he taught the individual, who aid he created the bad person, who actually seen this move etc.. no one, it is something reported after the event, DAYS after ! and some of the forum members on here who quiet plainly have personal issues with Mikey have taken it upon themselves to make him the scapegoat !!! Thats what bugs me, it would bug me regardless of who the teacher was.
And once again as you said, you have seen one class ( all or part ? ) one saturday night comparee which has now being pointed out became very diffficult for Mikey after cabarets had problems, something none of us were aware off, plus and the worst of all.. "stories" from your friends.. stories are like chinese whispers sadly.. they change and grow from person to person.. If you note the thread on Sleazebags, dance demon strted it with a remark from Mikey's class (3rd hand) and later apologised because he was told the remark out of context ! Are you so confident what you hear is not out of context, either?

fletch
18th-June-2005, 06:27 PM
Mikey is booked to teach because (IMHO) he is popular. Personally I don't like what he teaches much, but I do think he deserves to teach at events like Southport and hats off to J&W for putting on classes to please all tastes and all levels. I do worry about unacceptable behaviour, but I think it is ridiculous and dangerous to try to link specific teachers or the teaching of close or lewd moves to an assault (actual or attempted).


It's a shame that some of the threads on the forum are now turning into veiled (or sometimes blatant) personal attacks (not just against Mikey) that seem to be repeated ad nauseam. :angry:


:yeah: 'nuff said

Extremely valid points which have also being pointed out by other members and sadly no notice taken. I had a friend look at this earlier from his office and he agrees, this whole discussion is getting very dangerously close to ending in legal Action and if that happened it would be a very sad state of affairs.
My mother used to say "if you don't have anything goos to say, don't say it anything at all" now while we cannot be litteral in that andd say nothing when we dislike .. i do feel there are boundries that should not be crossed and this forum really looks close to that boundry. None of my friends from souhport want to join now after seeing all this and think I am mad for doing so myself, but as i said, i am outspoken, but sensible with it.
Now as soon as i can figure out how to resize a pic, you can all see my wonderful smile, and put a face to the name.. :grin:

jivecat
18th-June-2005, 06:43 PM
Fletch,

I know you have only just joined ... but some of the people you mention above have been around for years (and I mean that in the nicest possible way :hug: ) and have reasons for posting what they have ... and for what they don't. I can understand that newly having arrived on the forum there seem to be some strong comments - some of these are and some are tongue-in-cheek. If you want to be flag-waving supporter of Mikey, that's your right - go ahead. But if you're the kind of person who thinks it is prudent to find out about office politics while in the first weeks of a new job before aligning yourself to anyone, you might want to apply the same principle here.

There are some very, very nice people on the forum ... and I hope you get to meet some more of them, dance with them, share cake and generally hang out with them as well as sharing dance & other thoughts on here.

Fletch had every right to say what she did, regardless of length of time on the forum. She has shown up some of the forum antics in a less than flattering light because she sees things freshly and objectively rather than as one of the "in crowd". She should be listened to. Do we just want new members that creep around not daring to post until they have found out what the acceptable, received forum wisdom is on any particular issue, and then toeing the party line? I don't think so.

And one way to work office politics is to speak your truth firmly but without aggression - and it seems to me that's what Fletch has done.

Fletch - you're well and truly blooded now! I'll rep you but I gotta go change ready to dance. :hug:

fletch
18th-June-2005, 06:50 PM
Fletch had every right to say what she did, regardless of length of time on the forum. She has shown up some of the forum antics in a less than flattering light because she sees things freshly and objectively rather than as one of the "in crowd". She should be listened to. Do we just want new members that creep around not daring to post until they have found out what the acceptable, received forum wisdom is on any particular issue, and then toeing the party line? I don't think so.

And one way to work office politics is to speak your truth firmly but without aggression - and it seems to me that's what Fletch has done.

Fletch - you're well and truly blooded now! I'll rep you but I gotta go change ready to dance. :hug:

:worthy: :worthy: :worthy:

Feelingpink
18th-June-2005, 06:50 PM
Fletch had every right to say what she did, regardless of length of time on the forum. .....

And that is exactly what I said in another post above.

David Bailey
18th-June-2005, 06:52 PM
First of all, Hi Fletch, and welcome!
Secondly:

I must be teaching the comb wrongly. Where is the inappropriate contact? :confused:

Not being a woman, you may not realise it, but some moves as simple as the Comb and even the Basket variations can and have being made very close and personal by men, they can do it with any move if it is thier mind to do so

Sure, but I believe Andy's question was aimed at the teaching rather than any pervy implementation.

I suspect the answer is in this flippin' hip push thing, we've had a recent discussion (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5098) about this area.

Little Monkey
18th-June-2005, 06:59 PM
So your telling me that someone informed you he was executing mikey's moves from his class, which you found offensive , but continued to put up with ? Or did you stop him, as was your right? {snip}

No, I recognised the moves from sitting through the class, and watching the whole routine. The guy also told me himself that it was what he'd learned in Mikey's class that day. And yes, I told him loud and clear that those moves were not acceptable, and even had to physically stop him, as he wouldn't listen. In the end I walked off the dance flor. Later on some of my friends got subjected to the same guy and the same moves (I did tell my friends about the guy to warn them, unfortunately too late for some of them! Also looked out for the organisers, but being such a busy venue, I didn't see them until loong after the guy had vanished). Believe me, I like UPC moves, and spent most of the weekend in the blues rom, where I was dancing very close to a lot of men I'd only just met (!!! :blush: ), so I'm not prudish! But I did not like being subjected to those very sexual moves, and told him so!

I have no personal issues with Mikey. Don't know the guy, but have been told by some people that he's a really nice chap. The issue is really people who attend classes where overtly sexual dance moves are taught, and do not understand/listen to the teachers warning, and later inflict them on total strangers. Different people have different tolerance levels. As I said above, I like UCP moves, but "sometimes" they go too far. I went to a few classes in Southport that taught some very close moves, and thoroughly enjoyed it! Other people might want some more personal space when dancing, which is fair enough. I have never been to any other class that teaches moves that look more like simulated sex, but have been to loads of blues-style classes where you are VERY close to your partner, without it being distasteful.

My "stories" from friends (very good dancers) who have attended other clases like the one mentioned above, have included the demonstration of moves they were taught in class, to illustrate why they found the class to be "not quite their cup of tea". They have not been rants. They have not just been stories told by friends who have been told by other friends who have heard from someone that "..........." (etc). If it was like the latter, then the story could very easily spiral out of context. When based on personal experience, I'm more confident what I hear is right, specially when shown the moves from the class.

Also - the class I saw was not on the Saturday night. That was just the entertainment, not the class! I also sat through a class during the day on Saturday. Two separate occasions. One cabaret/show/entertainment piece. One class.

Why are you trying to twist everything I say? Or are you simply trying to wind me up???? :confused:

Confused Monkey

David Bailey
18th-June-2005, 07:04 PM
I learnt about the forum after dancing with some of it's members and thought it sounded like a great place to log onto and chat.
As a newbie myself, I believe it is...


but having read some of what is here and noting some of the very personal attacks it certainly left me wondering whether to join or not sadly.
:what: By "internet forum" standards, this is definitely a friendly and welcoming community. Try viewing some usenet groups, especially the unmoderated ones - you'd be truly amazed at the level of drivel, abuse and vitriol there.

The "subscription" requirement, combined with the constant efforts of the hard-working moderators :flower: keep most people relatively honest most of the time. And that's as good as you generally get for these things. But I hope you stick around.


i think some of the attacks on ...{ etc. }
Hmm, I haven't actually seen any public attacks on, well, anyone really. Although if there have been, I'd expect the moderators to act to remove them, if only for legal protection reasons.

EDIT: oops, just spotted what you are referring to - my apologies. Although I'd call it more of a mildly bitchy comment than an attack. That Gus, he's just Evil, he is :innocent:


there are individuals in every aspect of life who are over bearing sexually, in work, at clubs, pubs, everywhere anyone can go.
Totally - and I believe (hope!) the numbers of such individuals is lower in the MJ community than in an average club / pub; certainly people are much much safer in an MJ club than a normal night club.


to combat this, other than any lady or Man ( lets not be sexist here) who feels they have had their personal space invaded in an unwanted fashion bring it to the attention of the organiser at the time, not later, or days later, tell a friend, who tells a friend, who might possibly (chinese whispers) get things wrong and then put it up on a public discussion and blame the teachers who are in the public eye.
To which I can only say :yeah:
Rumours, after-discussions etc. don't help much.

The only caveat I'd add is that this "do it now" course of action should be better publicised by the organisers, especially at weekenders...


I really hope no one is offended by my post and if you are, I am sure you will tell me so from what i have read thus far.
Ooooh yes... :)

fletch
18th-June-2005, 07:07 PM
First of all, Hi Fletch, and welcome!
Secondly:


Sure, but I believe Andy's question was aimed at the teaching rather than any pervy implementation.

I suspect the answer is in this flippin' hip push thing, we've had a recent discussion (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5098) about this area.

Thank you for the welcome..

but if in all honesty new ladies to dance are being educated that a man touching her hip is in-appropiate then thats where the problems and peoples reactions to certain teachers are starting ! There are, i was informed over 4000 ceroc moves, and in the classes i have attended many moves were taught using the ladies hips or hip to guide, which had more resistance than a potential floopy arm ! How often is leading via a hip being taught in ceroc venues all over the UK ? are you thus saying that it is ceroc that is teaching badly ? I think not, no, you obviously having read your previous posts also have a problem with just one teacher in particular, so whats your reasons ?

fletch
18th-June-2005, 07:12 PM
Hmm, I haven't actually seen any public attacks on, well, anyone really. Although if there have been, I'd expect the moderators to act to remove them, if only for legal protection reasons.

EDIT: oops, just spotted what you are referring to - my apologies. Although I'd call it more of a mildly bitchy comment than an attack. That Gus, he's just Evil, he is :innocent:


if in all seriousness you believe there have being no personal attacks on teachers such as Mikey then you sadly are very blinkered in your reading of this forum, because myself and many others have certainly seen plenty of it and find it disgusting and sad on a dance forum. the attacks in questions are atempting to have a teacher removed from his livlihood, if you think thats not personal, please explain what is, i am blonde, but not stupid.... :sad:

David Bailey
18th-June-2005, 07:15 PM
Thank you for the welcome..

but if in all honesty new ladies to dance are being educated that a man touching her hip is in-appropiate then thats where the problems and peoples reactions to certain teachers are starting !
Yes, I think I said pretty much the same thing. Or at least, I would have, I'm sure :)


There are, i was informed over 4000 ceroc moves,
:eek: Holy cr*p, that's 3,600 more for me to learn... :innocent:
(OK, you know you added a zero there, right :) )


are you thus saying that it is ceroc that is teaching badly ?
Well, it's not inconceivable, but I think my attitude was that it's "PC Madness" basically...


I think not, no, you obviously having read your previous posts also have a problem with just one teacher in particular, so whats your reasons ?
Who me? :innocent:
Errr, I don't think I have any problems with any teachers at the moment.

If it's the person you refer to previously, I've never met that person nor done any of that person's classes. So I'd look a bit silly expressing an opinion about that person as a teacher or a, erm, person...

(OK, "I'd look even sillier than normal"...)

David Bailey
18th-June-2005, 07:17 PM
SMIRF ?? Whats a SMIRF ? You're going the right way for a spanking young lady :)
Hey, good acronym though. Let's see now....

- Society for Multi-Integrated Retro-Fitters? Nah...
- Socially Mature dance Immigrants are Really Fun? Maybe...

Any others?

fletch
18th-June-2005, 07:33 PM
Also - the class I saw was not on the Saturday night. That was just the entertainment, not the class! I also sat through a class during the day on Saturday. Two separate occasions. One cabaret/show/entertainment piece. One class.

Why are you trying to twist everything I say? Or are you simply trying to wind me up???? :confused:

Confused Monkey

i'm sorry, but i am not twisting what your saying and if your confused, :sick: no, idea why..
I did Mikey's Latin Pasion class on saturday and no one from our group found it offencive or overly sexual, perhaps your confused as to who Mikey is ? buy the video, watch it again, then pass comment once more.. I did some of that class with Under Par in the early hours of Monday, does that make him anything more than a dancer ? No, it does not, it was a good class and had some nice moves actually and yes he did make some comments to men about not going beyond certain points of acceptability, but did you hear that ? have you pointed out any positive ? Hard to understand how such a popular, but highly disgussting negative teacher from this forums general opinion should be so popular at so many events and venues across the UK ? As for the cabarets and bits in bewteen, I missed Mikey teaching or telling anyone what to do in those circumstances ? but your saying he was responsible for the actions of strangers who volunteered from the audience ? :sad:
next time you se Mikey, go talk to him, have a dance with him, you will be pleasantly surprised, i was, he was not what i expected, and very resepectful, but still very cheeky.

I do not intend to offend, confuse or twist, sorry...

David Bailey
18th-June-2005, 07:41 PM
if in all seriousness you believe there have being no personal attacks on teachers such as Mikey then you sadly are very blinkered in your reading of this forum,
Or just very unobservant. Or I don't think it's that important. Or all three...


the attacks in questions are atempting to have a teacher removed from his livlihood,
This is another Evil Forum Mafia Influence thing again, right? Damn, I wish I knew who was in this Mafia, I'd love to be made :innocent:

OK, slightly more seriously, I doubt that the random postings of people on a forum have too much influence over, well, anything really. Think of it as a pub discussion, with the disadvantage that dumb comments are preserved for eternity. Not, perhaps, to be taken too seriously.

Except for all my posts, of course, which should be taught to future generations as The Way To Post Really Well.


i am blonde, but not stupid.... :sad:
I'm grey / bald, and stupid, does that count?
Or, to quote the great MartinHarper: "Sorry, I really am that stupid sometimes" :)

Little Monkey
18th-June-2005, 07:46 PM
i'm sorry, but i am not twisting what your saying and if your confused, :sick: no, idea why..


Sorry, but...... As I said earlier, it was the 'Mr. Bombastic' class I went to..... Was that Sunday? I get it all mixed up.... It was not the latin passion class.

And again, my dear, I have pointed out several positive things, including the popularity of Mikey's classes, that he must be a good teacher, and that I've heard he's a really nice chap. Did you choose to overlok these points?

And I did not blame Mikey for the behaviour of volunteers from the audience. And yes, Mikey did warn people about NOT doing certain moves with strangers etc, but some people clearly don't listen, as I've already pointed out. Which is obviously NOT Mikey's fault!

Well done to Mikey for teaching popular classes, and being such a sought-after teacher. Great for everyone who enjoys them. The issue, as stated numerous times by now, is people who learn sexual dance moves, and do not listen to the teachers warnings about what's acceptable on the social dance floor.

LM

David Bailey
18th-June-2005, 07:51 PM
Look, can everyone just stop arguing about trivial matters, and focus on the much more important topic deciding decent SMIRF names?

Custom T-shirts don't print themselves, you know... :rolleyes:

Little Monkey
18th-June-2005, 07:58 PM
Look, can everyone just stop arguing about trivial matters, and focus on the much more important topic deciding decent SMIRF names?

Custom T-shirts don't print themselves, you know... :rolleyes:

Specially when you're actually arguing over points you agree on.... :rofl: Time to stop!

Hmmmm, this SMIRF issue...... Needs serious consideration....

LM

fletch
18th-June-2005, 08:00 PM
Sorry, but...... As I said earlier, it was the 'Mr. Bombastic' class I went to..... Was that Sunday? I get it all mixed up.... It was not the latin passion class.

And again, my dear, I have pointed out several positive things, including the popularity of Mikey's classes, that he must be a good teacher, and that I've heard he's a really nice chap. Did you choose to overlok these points?

And I did not blame Mikey for the behaviour of volunteers from the audience. And yes, Mikey did warn people about NOT doing certain moves with strangers etc, but some people clearly don't listen, as I've already pointed out. Which is obviously NOT Mikey's fault!

Well done to Mikey for teaching popular classes, and being such a sought-after teacher. Great for everyone who enjoys them. The issue, as stated numerous times by now, is people who learn sexual dance moves, and do not listen to the teachers warnings about what's acceptable on the social dance floor.

LM

I think your last paragraph is exactly to the point, what bugs me is the fact certain individuals are not listening or seeing that fact.. don't you agree.. for them , it is an oportunity for personal attack and nothing to do with the isue at hand. :mad:
By the way, have a dance with Mikey when you see him next.. :grin:

David Bailey
18th-June-2005, 08:03 PM
Hmmmm, this SMIRF issue...... Needs serious consideration....
That's all you have to say? Hah - you're just twisting my words now... :mad: :innocent:

DangerousCurves
18th-June-2005, 08:11 PM
The guy also told me himself that it was what he'd learned in Mikey's class that day. And yes, I told him loud and clear that those moves were not acceptable, and even had to physically stop him, as he wouldn't listen. In the end I walked off the dance flor. Later on some of my friends got subjected to the same guy and the same moves

This man is clearly not someone who innocently failed to hear the teacher advise on the unsuitability of some moves for freestyle with strangers. Leaving aside the fact that such warnings are routinely given by Mikey at the start, during, and at the end of all UCP classes (and I do know this - I am at pretty much every one. Mikey is my dearest friend and I photograph most of his classes for him. I would have been at Southport this last weekend, had I not been looking after our beloved pet during her final days), and were probably also given by the other fine and respected teachers who taught ucp/blues moves at Southport - here we have him ignoring what his partner is shouting in his ear!!! She physically restrains him! Does anyone really think that he was left in any doubt as to how appropriate his actions were? But he carries on.....

(Well done, Little Monkey by the way, for standing up for herself against such a horrid person!)

Reading other women's postings this man appears to have made use of innocous moves to paw and grope, dips to get closer, and any opportunity at all to stare down womens cleavage. He is an opportunist, who will use any means to achieve his goal.

Is the answer to ban any teacher who ever taught this man a move which he has subsequentially abused? Oh, and while we are at it, complain about his optician who has given him the continued means of focusing?

I understand that 500 people did Mikey's Latin Passion Class, and that it was one of the most popular of the weekend. I have many, many photos of literally thousands of happy laughing people enjoying his classes at previous weekenders. Should those people be denied that enjoyment? Should all UCP/blues type classes be banned? Should the blues room be closed to prevent repetitions, denying the blues fans their enjoyment? I say, no!

The person responsible for spoiling Little Monkey's dance was the perv. He would have spoilt her dance armed only with a basket wrap, a first move and a comb - because he was not there to dance but to perv. Banning a particular type of class will make no difference to an individual such as this. I can remember being shamefully groped by a perv during beginner moves when I first started dancing - its a problem that has existed long before the current popular UCP/Blues classes were being taught.

Its not the moves to blame, its the perv.

The only person who should be targetted for removal from weekenders and all other dance events is the perv.

Feelingpink
18th-June-2005, 08:11 PM
I think your last paragraph is exactly to the point, what bugs me is the fact certain individuals are not listening or seeing that fact.. don't you agree.. for them , it is an oportunity for personal attack and nothing to do with the isue at hand. :mad:
By the way, have a dance with Mikey when you see him next.. :grin:

"Certain individuals" (i.e. everyone) have the choice of agreeing with your points or not. I'm sorry if it bugs you that they choose not to, but that is life on the forum. I don't think I know of one thread that ends with a cosy conclusion between all participants (no, not even one about cake or chocolate).

I'm sure that LM will choose to either have a dance with Mikey or not, depending on her own preferences and not because you have now told her twice that she should. Last time I looked, we lived in a free country.

Little Monkey
18th-June-2005, 08:31 PM
I think your last paragraph is exactly to the point, what bugs me is the fact certain individuals are not listening or seeing that fact.. don't you agree.. for them , it is an oportunity for personal attack and nothing to do with the isue at hand. :mad:
By the way, have a dance with Mikey when you see him next.. :grin:

Yeah, I do see your point. There are some who have been a bit personal and nasty in their "observations", but I was hoping my post(s) didn't come across as being nasty personal attacks - especially as I don't even know the guy! :(

Happy dancing,

LM

Little Monkey
18th-June-2005, 08:34 PM
That's all you have to say? Hah - you're just twisting my words now... :mad: :innocent:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I am in deep meditation to seek the true meaning of SMIRF. Kindly do not disturb my important work with your childish posts and twisting my words... :D

Little Monkey in Search of the True Meaning (of Life, The Universe and Everything??)

Little Monkey
18th-June-2005, 08:44 PM
This man is clearly not someone who innocently failed to hear the teacher advise on the unsuitability of some moves for freestyle with strangers. Leaving aside the fact that such warnings are routinely given by Mikey at the start, during, and at the end of all UCP classes (and I do know this - I am at pretty much every one. Mikey is my dearest friend and I photograph most of his classes for him. I would have been at Southport this last weekend, had I not been looking after our beloved pet during her final days), and were probably also given by the other fine and respected teachers who taught ucp/blues moves at Southport - here we have him ignoring what his partner is shouting in his ear!!! She physically restrains him! Does anyone really think that he was left in any doubt as to how appropriate his actions were? But he carries on.....


:yeah:
Well said, Dangerous Curves!

Some pervs use the fact that "I was taught it in class" as an excuse for inappropriate behaviour on the dance floor, clearly ignoring everything the teacher has said about whats appropriate/not appropriate in a social dance setting. This sadly ruins the dance experience for others Which was what I tried to say in my posts. Clearly failing miserably. :whistle:

I very much enjoyed the rest of the weekend, though!!! :clap: :clap: Going back in September!!!!

LM

Feelingpink
18th-June-2005, 08:46 PM
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I am in deep meditation to seek the true meaning of SMIRF. Kindly do not disturb my important work with your childish posts and twisting my words... :D

Little Monkey in Search of the True Meaning (of Life, The Universe and Everything??)


- SMIRF - Serious Meditation Innit - Reveals Forty-Two!

(or Sombre Monkey Intuitively Revels in Rain Forests)

David Bailey
18th-June-2005, 08:51 PM
that is life on the forum. I don't think I know of one thread that ends with a cosy conclusion between all participants (no, not even one about cake or chocolate).
Or shoes :)
Hmmm, the BTC one came close...

:yeah: to all your points - as I said, try usenet groups if you want serious levels of vitriol, up to and including death threats.

Fletch, I admire your passion, and I think you're right to point out that derogatory comments about any individuals are a Bad Thing. I also believe that any "Pervy classes encourage pervs" is cr*p. I'm not sure on the "Pervy classes give pervs an excuse to be more pervy" argument , however - there are some plausible tales here, but I just dunno. But let's drop it now, huh?

Little Monkey
18th-June-2005, 08:56 PM
- SMIRF - Serious Meditation Innit - Reveals Forty-Two!

(or Sombre Monkey Intuitively Revels in Rain Forests)

Oh, you've got me in stitches!!!!!!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Little Sore-Tummied Monkey

Lou
18th-June-2005, 09:02 PM
- SMIRF - Serious Meditation Innit - Reveals Forty-Two!

(or Sombre Monkey Intuitively Revels in Rain Forests)
Obvious really. It's

Stop/Support* Mikey's Irresponsible/Innocent* Risqué Filth/Fun*

*delete as appropriate, depending on which side of the divide you are. ;)

Little Monkey
18th-June-2005, 09:11 PM
Obvious really. It's

Stop/Support* Mikey's Irresponsible/Innocent* Risqué Filth/Fun*

*delete as appropriate, depending on which side of the divide you are. ;)

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Aaaaaaahhhhh! Who needs a tv when you've got the forum?? SMIRF

Smiling Monkey In Risk of Fainting - too much laughter can kill!

DangerousCurves
18th-June-2005, 09:14 PM
:yeah:
Well said, Dangerous Curves!

Some pervs use the fact that "I was taught it in class" as an excuse for inappropriate behaviour on the dance floor, clearly ignoring everything the teacher has said about whats appropriate/not appropriate in a social dance setting. This sadly ruins the dance experience for others Which was what I tried to say in my posts. Clearly failing miserably. :whistle:

I very much enjoyed the rest of the weekend, though!!! :clap: :clap: Going back in September!!!!

LM

Look forward to seeing you then! I was really sorry to miss this fabulous weekender this time round.

Like you, I find that pervs have a whole range of ready excuses for why they have done something. This guy seems to have also used the line "You know you enjoy it really" with some poor victim. Do we believe that she did? nope! Do we believe that he managed to hear the teacher teach the move, but miraculously not hear the warnings as to unsuitability in freestyle? nope! Both are just excuses - and spectacularly poor defences!

I truly despise this sort of person - ruining not only the dance for the poor person in front of them, but potentially the enjoyment of UCP/Blues classes for all other dancers. And what will be next - apparently one poster heard a man talk of likeing to go to Arials classes "because you can get a good grope in"! :sick: People like him will always find some way to perv, even with the simplest of moves.

Fortunately I believe that there are enough people of good sense at dance to see through the issue and target the pervs, particularly by providing a clear complaints proceedure to anyone who has been victimised so that the perv can be stopped there and then.

Dance Demon
18th-June-2005, 11:04 PM
Fortunately I believe that there are enough people of good sense at dance to see through the issue and target the pervs, particularly by providing a clear complaints proceedure to anyone who has been victimised so that the perv can be stopped there and then.

Which is thhe point I was trying to make in the original posting. What I was also trying to find out through the original post, was whether people thought that pervs hid behind the " well I was tought the move in one of the workshops" excuse..when trying things on with women in freestyle. Perhaps I didn't phrase the original post properly. It was never my intention to start a witch hunt against any particular person. Unfortunately this has happened, and Mikey has been singled out for some harsh criticism. I wouldn't support any move to have him banned from teaching at weekenders, as his classes are popular with many people. No doubt that is why he has been booked to teach at all the Southport weekends. fortunately there have also been some very good &constructive posts, about how to handle pervs etc. Hopefully some good has come out of it. My apologies to anyone who has been upset by the nature of the thread.

stewart38
19th-June-2005, 12:45 AM
why was this post taken out ??

----------------------------------------


fletch has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - Southport
June 2005 - The Aftermath - in the Social events forum of Ceroc Scotland Forum.

This thread is located at:
http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5577&goto=newpost

Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************
so let me get this straight, you and gus, along with the chap Andy magregor all
think that mikey's popular classes as you stated should not be allowed and his
livlihod efected because you all disaprove ?
I can tell you as one of a crowd who attended his classes he does give warnings
at the beginning, during when teaching certain moves and key points, not
forgetiing the end and his final words. but then, you don't like his classes and
obviously you would not know that as a fact would you ? And it seems Andy and
Gus do not even attend events he teaches at, but they to think he should have
his livlihood taken away too.. sounds more like jealousy rather than anything
concrete and i doubt many would see it differently after reading al the comments
in some of thse posts.
i do not even know Mikey personally and i have now found myself fighting his
corner, it seems few on here stand up for him and i wondered why he is not on
here himself to answer your remarks, but if he was, would you still be so
forward i wonder ? :what:

____________________________



seems very acurate

Dreadful Scathe
19th-June-2005, 12:54 AM
if in all seriousness you believe there have being no personal attacks on teachers such as Mikey then you sadly are very blinkered in your reading of this forum,

Seems to me that you're just very biased. There have been many 'attacks' on people on this public forum because they are in the public eye and they are open for, sometimes constructive, criticism. People have opinions and they want to state them, thast what this forum is good for. There is rarely anything that is so bad it needs to be deleted but rest assured - if something is serious enough the moderators will have it removed. Its happened with many threads and posts in the past - lets name no names ;)


i'm sorry, but i am not twisting what your saying and if your confused, :sick: no, idea why..

This quote at little monkey followed many attempts you made to put words in her mouth, yet you cannot see any 'twisting'? LM has plenty words of her own without anyone elses help :)



buy the video, watch it again, then pass comment once more.

This sounds oh so very much like 'you have not come to the same opinion as me about Mikey so watch his video repeatedly until you do'. Not very open minded of you is it? Others are entitled to their own opinions, and others are certainly entitled to say it in a public forum. You said before that people you have spoken to will 'vote with their feet' and not join the forum now. Well its certainly their loss as they dont get to state their opinion and we dont get to hear it. No one on here will miss their cries of complaint because they wont ...er..actually be making any :confused:



next time you se Mikey, go talk to him, have a dance with him, you will be pleasantly surprised, i was, he was not what i expected, and very resepectful, but still very cheeky.

Maybe she will indeed but you telling her she will, will not make it so.

----------------------
SMIRF is clearly Scathing Material is Rather Funny

er...maybe not today though :)

did you hear the one about Viktor, the pineapple and Pans people?


a classic...

fletch
19th-June-2005, 01:24 AM
why was this post taken out ??

----------------------------------------


fletch has just replied to a thread you have subscribed to entitled - Southport
June 2005 - The Aftermath - in the Social events forum of Ceroc Scotland Forum.

This thread is located at:
http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5577&goto=newpost

Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************
so let me get this straight, you and gus, along with the chap Andy magregor all
think that mikey's popular classes as you stated should not be allowed and his
livlihod efected because you all disaprove ?
I can tell you as one of a crowd who attended his classes he does give warnings
at the beginning, during when teaching certain moves and key points, not
forgetiing the end and his final words. but then, you don't like his classes and
obviously you would not know that as a fact would you ? And it seems Andy and
Gus do not even attend events he teaches at, but they to think he should have
his livlihood taken away too.. sounds more like jealousy rather than anything
concrete and i doubt many would see it differently after reading al the comments
in some of thse posts.
i do not even know Mikey personally and i have now found myself fighting his
corner, it seems few on here stand up for him and i wondered why he is not on
here himself to answer your remarks, but if he was, would you still be so
forward i wonder ? :what:

____________________________



seems very acurate


It seems much of what i wrote today has been removed, apart from I found Sleazebags in take it upstairs section.. Perhaps I hit a cord of real truth that no one wants to admit too :what: or has the guts to admit too.. i would still like to hear from the above mentioned souls, if of course they have not lost thier voice all of a sudden when challenged on this open opinion of Mikey and his livlihood. :whistle:

fletch
19th-June-2005, 01:32 AM
"Certain individuals" (i.e. everyone) have the choice of agreeing with your points or not. I'm sorry if it bugs you that they choose not to, but that is life on the forum. I don't think I know of one thread that ends with a cosy conclusion between all participants (no, not even one about cake or chocolate).

I'm sure that LM will choose to either have a dance with Mikey or not, depending on her own preferences and not because you have now told her twice that she should. Last time I looked, we lived in a free country.

Well it would be nicer for her to comment on someone she has actualy danced with perhaps, i hardly told her as if she had no choice in the matter. :sick: Tell me has no one ever said to you FP "oh you should dance with ..?.. when you see him ? No, ? how sad.. never mind, it will happen one day.. see, i can sound sarcastic too, not clever though really , is it.. :wink:

stewart38
19th-June-2005, 01:34 AM
It seems much of what i wrote today has been removed, apart from I found Sleazebags in take it upstairs section.. Perhaps I hit a cord of real truth that no one wants to admit too :what: or has the guts to admit too.. i would still like to hear from the above mentioned souls, if of course they have not lost thier voice all of a sudden when challenged on this open opinion of Mikey and his livlihood. :whistle:


some people seem to have personal vendetta against him (I dont know him so cant comment)

But his classes are always well taught and as you say and its often repeated what the moves entail.

I would like to to think the forum encourages sensible unbias debate

fletch
19th-June-2005, 01:52 AM
Seems to me that you're just very biased. There have been many 'attacks' on people on this public forum because they are in the public eye and they are open for, sometimes constructive, criticism. People have opinions and they want to state them, thast what this forum is good for. There is rarely anything that is so bad it needs to be deleted but rest assured - if something is serious enough the moderators will have it removed. Its happened with many threads and posts in the past - lets name no names ;)...
Well it seems it has being deleted and if you can say I am biased, what are these people like Gus and Andy in that case ?




This sounds oh so very much like 'you have not come to the same opinion as me about Mikey so watch his video repeatedly until you do'. Not very open minded of you is it? Others are entitled to their own opinions, and others are certainly entitled to say it in a public forum. You said before that people you have spoken to will 'vote with their feet' and not join the forum now. Well its certainly their loss as they dont get to state their opinion and we dont get to hear it. No one on here will miss their cries of complaint because they wont ...er..actually be making any :confused:

On the first instance LM was talking about having watched Mikey at his Saturday class, saying it had many sexual moves, I simply knew she was wrong having done that class myself and suggested she watched the video and see it was not so.. however LM later realised she had actually watched a completely different class on a different day.. which you might have realised yourself if you had taken the time to read before commenting. :wink:

On the second note about my friends voting with thier feet and not joining the forum well your right, who is going to miss them, rather like Gus and Andy voting with thier feet and not attending weekend events that Mikey teaches at.. perhaps I should now reccomend to anyone who enjoys Mikey's classes to join the forum and see if it leads to harmonious posts ?

fletch
19th-June-2005, 02:02 AM
some people seem to have personal vendetta against him (I dont know him so cant comment)

But his classes are always well taught and as you say and its often repeated what the moves entail.

I would like to to think the forum encourages sensible unbias debate
:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

Andy McGregor
19th-June-2005, 03:07 AM
I've just read through this thread and have been surprised and disappointed by the posts I've read from fletch. Our new friend has decided to come in here, guns blazing and attack a number of us for our posts where we have expressed an opinion regarding the teaching of sleazy moves. This entry to the forum with a single issue is something we've seen before on the forum - anyone remember CarlaB? From what I've seen so far I believe that fletch has a single agenda and has nothing to add to the forum apart from criticism of many of it's members. Come on Fletch, have you got anything to say regarding dance that's not related to Mikey? We discuss a great deal of issues on here, not just Mikey. Perhaps Fletch would like to join in those other discussions too :innocent:

Andy McGregor
19th-June-2005, 03:23 AM
livlihood. :whistle:Gadget old boy, I think you may have a worthy challenger :wink:

Feelingpink
19th-June-2005, 06:38 AM
Well it would be nicer for her to comment on someone she has actualy danced with perhaps, i hardly told her as if she had no choice in the matter. :sick: Tell me has no one ever said to you FP "oh you should dance with ..?.. when you see him ? No, ? how sad.. never mind, it will happen one day.. see, i can sound sarcastic too, not clever though really , is it.. :wink:
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: I guess you don't know me very well. I was telling my best friend this week about several people who had told me what to do. Without hesitation, they replied "Where are they buried?"

Please explain how dancing with someone makes you better able to comment on someone's teaching? And I'm still waiting for a reply to my ealier post (number 123) where I asked for you to also explain why it was that you felt you had the freedom to post your opinions but others did not. Giving your opinion is one thing ... expecting everyone else to agree is something else entirely.

Danger Mouse
19th-June-2005, 09:25 AM
but they to think he should have his livlihood taken away too.. sounds more like jealousy rather than anything concrete

i do not even know Mikey personally and i have now found myself fighting his
corner

I'm standing with Mikey too, I didn’t go to his workshop this time as I had other things to do, but I have been before and he does indeed warn people. His workshops are very popular and I personally would think these weekend would be poorer without him. They are meant as a bit of lighthearted fun and I for one do not take them seriously and go along for a bit of a laugh.

Personally I wouldn’t dream of using any of his so called ‘naughty’ moves in a freestyle situation not even on my girlfriend as she would probably slap me. :blush:

I’m sure John & Wes realise that the forum only represents the feelings of a small (and increasingly elitist) minority and they surly will not base any major decisions on the diatribe coming from it.

Heather
19th-June-2005, 09:45 AM
Whitley Bay Academy of Musicality Summer School 2005
practical classes for ladies, addressing "Dealing With The Sleazebag"
by our residential Jujitsu master
techniques including: Face Slapping, The Knee In The Testicles, and Effective Use Of The Elbow


I don't need to enrol ... I know all of these techniques already !! :rofl:
And I certainly would not hesitate to use them , if I ever felt the need !!
MESS WITH ME AT YOUR PERIL!!!

:hug:
Heather,
xx

fletch
19th-June-2005, 11:17 AM
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: I guess you don't know me very well. I was telling my best friend this week about several people who had told me what to do. Without hesitation, they replied "Where are they buried?"

Please explain how dancing with someone makes you better able to comment on someone's teaching? And I'm still waiting for a reply to my ealier post (number 123) where I asked for you to also explain why it was that you felt you had the freedom to post your opinions but others did not. Giving your opinion is one thing ... expecting everyone else to agree is something else entirely.


if you are going to commemt on a person whom you have never spoken to and do not know, perhaps meeeting, dancing having a friendly chat with them miht give you more insight as o what kind of person they are... instead of judging the book by it's cover.. or the teaching in this case..
As for your post 123, I felt that 125/126 answered it sufficiently in my mind..

Lynn
19th-June-2005, 11:33 AM
On the second note about my friends voting with thier feet and not joining the forum well your right, who is going to miss them, rather like Gus and Andy voting with thier feet and not attending weekend events that Mikey teaches at.. Herein lies the danger in reading posts and jumping to conclusions. Gus did not name any teacher - you have assumed he was talking about a particular person and that he therefore had refused to attend a particular weekend event - which he was at. I'm not making any assumptions about who he was referring to. But you have. This is where the 'chinese whispers' that you have referred to come in - and you are now spreading them. I'm sorry, you talk about wanting to just speak your mind, but making comment like this just seems like stirring to me.

Little Monkey
19th-June-2005, 11:38 AM
On the first instance LM was talking about having watched Mikey at his Saturday class, saying it had many sexual moves, I simply knew she was wrong having done that class myself and suggested she watched the video and see it was not so.. however LM later realised she had actually watched a completely different class on a different day.. which you might have realised yourself if you had taken the time to read before commenting. :wink:


Sorry fletch, but I did state in my first post on the subject that it was the Mr. Bombastic class I sat through..... I just got the days mixed up. But as far as I know it was only one class called Mr. Bombastic , so you probably didn't read my post very well before replying..... :flower: So Smurf probably knew very well which class I was talking about...

LM

fletch
19th-June-2005, 11:41 AM
Herein lies the danger in reading posts and jumping to conclusions. Gus did not name any teacher - you have assumed he was talking about a particular person and that he therefore had refused to attend a particular weekend event - which he was at. I'm not making any assumptions about who he was referring to. But you have. This is where the 'chinese whispers' that you have referred to come in - and you are now spreading them. I'm sorry, you talk about wanting to just speak your mind, but making comment like this just seems like stirring to me.

hello lynn,

I actually based my opinion upon the e mail i recieved which gave me some background and explanation on Gus and Andy.. so including that in what I also read in posts, it seemed a bit obvious, but if i was wrong regards Gus, then I opolgise to him wholeheartedly. :grin:
I have found that many people have opinions which they are frightened to make public on the forum ( but happy to put in an e mail or private message) for fear of becoming a target, now that I found very sad :sad:

fletch
19th-June-2005, 11:48 AM
I've just read through this thread and have been surprised and disappointed by the posts I've read from fletch. Our new friend has decided to come in here, guns blazing and attack a number of us for our posts where we have expressed an opinion regarding the teaching of sleazy moves. This entry to the forum with a single issue is something we've seen before on the forum - anyone remember CarlaB? From what I've seen so far I believe that fletch has a single agenda and has nothing to add to the forum apart from criticism of many of it's members. Come on Fletch, have you got anything to say regarding dance that's not related to Mikey? We discuss a great deal of issues on here, not just Mikey. Perhaps Fletch would like to join in those other discussions too :innocent:

hello Andy,

i actually was told about the forum by some of it's members at Southport, but I think when the recommended it, all this had not began, because i had the impression it was a fun, friendly place.. not the sadly I seen when I sat and read some of this particular thread. I have in honesty seen very little of any value posted by yourself on this issue which did not include a blatantly personal agenda by yourself to have Mikey removed as a teacher ? I have received several personal messages and some e mails from members kindly explaining this has being the norm with your good self for quiet some time. Do you not think your time would be better spent on other matters besides having Mikey banned from dance weekenders and blaming him ( wrongly IMO and it seems many many more of the members) for all the wrong doing of dancers in this world. You attacked him for the classes he taught, it was pointed out that other teachers like Viktor and Robert & Nicky also taught UPC moves, however, not once, anywhere have you commented on these teachers ? nope, not once.
I have actually taken time to discuss what this thread was originally about and give my thoughts on the matter, perhaps you missed it, it's there, honest.
I have found that much of the direct questions i posted were removed, something highlighted by a chap called Stewart, which has again being removed.
i have joined the forum and found this to be the post which has taken up my ime presently, do not get me wrong, if it was any teacher being hunted as mikey is, I would have posted no differently.. and I will have things to say regards other matters, hopefully far more pleasant than this particular thread.

Fletch

Andy McGregor
19th-June-2005, 11:51 AM
Personally I wouldn’t dream of using any of his so called ‘naughty’ moves in a freestyle situation not even on my girlfriend as she would probably slap me. :blush: So, let me get this right. Danger Mouse is saying that he wouldn't do the 'naughty' moves taught in Mikey's lessons on his girlfriend. So why does he feel it's OK to do them in the lesson on total strangers? :confused: And, this is the thing to consider, some guys will and do not heed the warnings in the lesson and will do those moves on strangers in the freestyle - maybe even my wife or Danger Mouse's girlfriend :tears:

The argument about it being the pervs who do the moves is a bit like the gun-law argument. The argument goes that it's not the guns that kill it's the people pulling the triggers. But countries that have no guns have far less shootings than those that do. And, in many civilised countries you have to have a licence for a gun to make sure you're not going to use it inappropriately. This is not the case with teaching the kind of move that Danger Mouse wouldn't do on his girlfriend! Any guy can attend these classes and my guess is that if you are a perv you will be there :angry: Maybe the organisers should use the line of men in the lesson as an identity parade for the women who have been the victim of inappropriate moves :whistle:


hello lynn,

I actually based my opinion upon the e mail i recieved which gave me some background and explanation on Gus and Andy.. so including that in what I also read in posts, it seemed a bit obvious, but if i was wrong regards Gus, then I opolgise to him wholeheartedly. :grin:
I have found that many people have opinions which they are frightened to make public on the forum ( but happy to put in an e mail or private message) for fear of becoming a target, now that I found very sad :sad:
I'm quite concerned that Fletch received an email that meant she felt the need to join the forum to attack me and Gus. What must that email have contained? And why would it have been sent to Fletch? How many others must that email have been sent to? And who would have sent that email? And, the final question, how can Fletch be certain that the content of that email is true?

p.s. Anyone else notice that Danger Mouse is from Staffordshire and Fletch is from Stafford? Coincidence?

p.p.s. My own opinion is that we'd pretty much said everything that there was to say about the teaching of sleazy moves. It's only the sudden entry of Fletch that's kept up the debate.

fletch
19th-June-2005, 11:52 AM
Sorry fletch, but I did state in my first post on the subject that it was the Mr. Bombastic class I sat through..... I just got the days mixed up. But as far as I know it was only one class called Mr. Bombastic , so you probably didn't read my post very well before replying..... :flower: So Smurf probably knew very well which class I was talking about...

LM

well I am sorry if I missed that, but it just goes along with what dangerouscurves said, the guy was a perve FULLSTOP ! Mikey taught that class as a short routine to a set piece of music, which he stated was purely fun and not meant for general dancing. I think if you had told Mikey himself what had happened he would have being unhappy and spoke to the chap himself :what:

fletch
19th-June-2005, 12:05 PM
I'm quite concerned that Fletch received an email that meant she felt the need to join the forum to attack me and Gus. What must that email have contained? And why would it have been sent to Fletch? How many others must that email have been sent to? And who would have sent that email? And, the final question, how can Fletch be certain that the content of that email is true?

i did explain that i joined the forum after it was recomended to me by some of it's members at Southport. The e mail in question was sent to me after i joined as was the private messages, so i am very sorry Andy, but your barking up the wrong tree with that point. But I am still interested to hear in your own words what your actual problem is with Mikey, lets be honest here, it is very very obvious it has litle to do with his teaching really, although thats what you hide your comments behind in a sense. can you enlighten me perhaps ?



p.s. Anyone else notice that Danger Mouse is from Staffordshire and Fletch is from Stafford? Coincidence?

As for your comemt on myself and danger mouse knowing each other and perhaps having our own agenda, once again, sorry, but i have yet to make his aquaintance, beyond seeing his post earlier this morning. Coincidence was correctly identified, well done :wink:



p.p.s. My own opinion is that we'd pretty much said everything that there was to say about the teaching of sleazy moves. It's only the sudden entry of Fletch that's kept up the debate.

I think on that point a lot of it would have finished being said long before you blurred the issue with a personal agenda.. it sems, many members have pointed this out, but you ignored for your own reasons, which are.. whatever.. ?

Lynn
19th-June-2005, 12:08 PM
I have found that much of the direct questions i posted were removed, something highlighted by a chap called Stewart, which has again being removed. You may be referring to another instance of this on this thread - but the post that Stewart38 said was removed (in post 155) was still there (and still is there) in post 117. Neither have been removed.

Moderators only tend to remove posts if they are a duplicate posting, blatent advertising, offensive or libellous. They aren't Big Brother 'controlling' what is being posted.

Andy McGregor
19th-June-2005, 12:12 PM
hello Andy, I have in honesty seen very little of any value posted by yourself on this issue which did not include a blatantly personal agenda by yourself to have Mikey removed as a teacher ? I have received several personal messages and some e mails from members kindly explaining this has being the norm with your good self for quite some time. Do you not think your time would be better spent on other matters besides having Mikey banned from dance weekenders and blaming him ( wrongly IMO and it seems many many more of the members) for all the wrong doing of dancers in this world. You attacked him for the classes he taught, it was pointed out that other teachers like Viktor and Robert & Nicky also taught UPC moves, however, not once, anywhere have you commented on these teachers ? nope, not once.My comments are aimed at the teaching of moves which simulate sex acts. I have been to many classes by Viktor and a couple by Robert and Nicky - not once have I seen a move that simulates oral sex, sex between one woman and two men or any other kind of sex. I believe that the teaching of these overtly sexual moves takes our developing dance down a road it should not travel. To my knowledge there is only one teacher of these types of moves at weekenders. This is my opinion and you have every right to disagree with that opinion. You are right that Mikey's classes are popular at the weekenders and he is a good teacher and entertainer - it is WHAT he teaches that I disagree with. If other teachers jump on this particular style of teaching I will also say I don't like what they teach. At the moment I'm not aware of any other teachers travelling this particular road.


I have actually taken time to discuss what this thread was originally about and give my thoughts on the matter, perhaps you missed it, it's there, honest.
I have found that much of the direct questions i posted were removed, something highlighted by a chap called Stewart, which has again being removed. It's annoying to have posts removed, and it happens to all of us. I must admit that it's surprising to hear that a new member has had some of her first posts removed but the moderators must have had their reasons - they might even have told you what they were.

Magic Hans
19th-June-2005, 12:16 PM
Ding ding!! Round three thousand, four hundred and twenty four!

Do we really have to go over all this old ground again, defending our own positions, and attacking others for theirs?

What's the point? Where is it leading?

Generally, as far as I can see, in ever decreasing circles until it disappears up its own ... you know what!!

Mind you, I guess it does say, somewhere in a well known publication -
"An eye for an eye. A tooth for a tooth"

I'll be looking forward to an eyeless, toothless forum then, perhaps!!

Take care peops

!an

fletch
19th-June-2005, 12:19 PM
You may be referring to another instance of this on this thread - but the post that Stewart38 said was removed (in post 155) was still there (and still is there) in post 117. Neither have been removed.

Moderators only tend to remove posts if they are a duplicate posting, blatent advertising, offensive or libellous. They aren't Big Brother 'controlling' what is being posted.

Hi sweetie,
i am glad it is still there, while I have managed to understand and use a lot of the functions on the forum, still a newbie and these particular posts have moved about a few times, so I have lost track a couple of times.
You mentioned offensive, ;ibellous post being removed, I think some should have being removed on the sleazebags thread some time back since they strike me as offensive to Mikey, the teacher and bordering on libellous with certain content. I have only being here a short time and I actually do like the forum, just a little sad at some of the very unnessessary personal attacks hidden behind a valid thread :(

djtrev
19th-June-2005, 12:23 PM
I like to think that I am an outsider on this issue of Mikey.
Fletch,you are probably right in assuming that there are other issues at stake in this whole sorry business.My advise to you would be to let it drop;you most definately wont be told any more than you already know.Certainly not on this very public of forums.

Lynn
19th-June-2005, 12:24 PM
I was taught a move called "The Tart" along with a few others,last thursday by one of the guys that he learnt in Nicky and Roberts class over the weekend. certainly as full on as anything Mikey taught at the weekend. Should they be banned and slatted for teaching those moves ? A note on that move (and I have to add that I did this class and Mikey's Latin Passion one - fixed with my b/f) - was that the move Nicky taught was as far as I could tell very much controlled by the lady - the man can lead to walk round after the pretzel thingy but I don't see how he could lead her to do that move.

And I think this is maybe a key point. Teaching moves, whatever the warnings given, that men can control in freestyle can give pervs more moves to abuse (though I agree they can make a lot of basic moves uncomfortable). But if the move is controlled by the lady then she has the choice of how close to make it.

Gus
19th-June-2005, 12:30 PM
hello lynn,

I actually based my opinion upon the e mail i recieved which gave me some background and explanation on Gus and Andy:
SHARE ... PLEASE ... share :eek:

Andy McGregor
19th-June-2005, 12:35 PM
But I am still interested to hear in your own words what your actual problem is with Mikey, lets be honest here, it is very very obvious it has litle to do with his teaching really, although thats what you hide your comments behind in a sense. can you enlighten me perhaps? It is difficult to separate what someone does from who they are. Some philosopher who I wish I could name said "you are what you do" and I don't like what he does. There are others who do like what he does and there a some who agree with me.

This is what debate is all about. Debate is about dicussing the issues putting up cogent argument and counter-argument. It is very easy to debate the personalities but it is the matter in hand that was being discussed on this thread. Fletch has defended Mikey's freedom to teach what he likes without really entering the debate about the matter in hand. She has questioned the motivation of me and Gus. Has tried to tell Little Monkey that she was mistaken in her posts, etc. If Fletch has something new to add to the debate I welcome her but I think we've had enough of her accusations of bias. Of course we're biased, we have opinion one way or the other - that's what bias is. But, as far as I can see, there has been no prejudice, we've debated the matter at hand. In case Fletch has lost track of the question I posed, here it is;

Should moves that simulate sex acts be taught at dance weekenders, even when people are warned that they should not do those moves outside the lesson?

My own opinion is that they should not be taught. Some people have agreed with this opinion and others have not. Does Fletch have anything to say on this particular matter?

Magic Hans
19th-June-2005, 12:47 PM
...has something new to add to the debate I welcome her but I think we've had enough of her accusations ...
Point of order you're honour!!! .... I hope that I'm not included in the aforementioned 'we' pronoun.

I kind of object to that .... in a funny kind of way .... for some reason!!

[Any references to names have, and will be removed, in order to protect the guilty, and implicated the nearest (innocent) bystander (or byreader)!!!! ]

[Overuse of exclamation marks is, of course, optional(!!!!??), and not punishable by instant decapitation as some might like!!!!!!!]

Dreadful Scathe
19th-June-2005, 01:38 PM
Well it seems it has being deleted and if you can say I am biased, what are these people like Gus and Andy in that case ?

Andy and Gus have too often seen UCP moves taught and abused, if they happen to not like certain teaching styles, teachers, types of move they would say so - and they clearly have. Its good to hear others opinions, but we do not have to agree with them.


. which you might have realised yourself if you had taken the time to read before commenting. :wink:

I thought it was fairly clear what LM was talking about - 'Mr Boombastic' was the name of the class! Maybe LM should use highlighting colours in future for those less observant ;)


perhaps I should now reccomend to anyone who enjoys Mikey's classes to join the forum and see if it leads to harmonious posts ?

Perhaps you should. Perhaps they would state a counter point to others comments as opposed to your 'you're all wrong' arguments :).

DangerousCurves
19th-June-2005, 01:51 PM
I have a huge objection to the logic which calls for the banning of types of teaching.

Pervs do not generally hang their head, grin sheepishly and say "yes, I'm a creep" when confronted. They throw up a smokescreen of excuses.

Other commonly heard ones from my own experience have been....

"I did those moves with Mary and Jane just before, and they didn't mind" - so should we blame Mary and Jane and have them banned from dance events for having put up with a perv and furnished him with an excuse for further purving?

"I saw this woman dance like that with a different partner to the last track" - so shall we blame the victim and her last partner and similarly ban them, for furnishing an excuse?

"All the other people in the blues room were doing similar moves, why can't I do the same thing?" so should we castigate the blues dancers and close the blues room down?

In all these cases, you would be blaming and punishing the innocent - rather than actually targeting the cause. For this reason, calling for an end to a type of class is frankly silly.

There are a number of areas of dance where moves are taught under various cautions. UCP/blues is one (and I am pleased to have seen several contributers to this thread confirm the clear and continous cautions given during classes at Southport) - Dips and drops another, arials another again. Clearly, by hosting a class of arials the organisers do not imply that its absolutely fine for a man to walk out of the class, into freestyle, seize any woman he likes and fling her across the floor! In no sense is this "condoned" behaviour! Similarly, dops teachers are always at pains to point out that you cannot assume that every freestyle partner wishes to be dropped or dipped - some for medical reasons, some simply personal preference.

I was at a weekender a short while ago where I understand a man merely watched a class featuring some drops (which were properly and professionally taught by a fine teacher, who pointed out drops ettiquette throughout), and he promptly went into freestyle, grabbed an unsuspecting partner and dropped her on her head occassioning an injury which required hospital treatment. Following some of the logic on this thread, the poor teacher in question should have been run out of town on a rail!

I do not like to see what is supposed to be a discussion of an ISSUE descend into attacks against INDIVIDUALS - particularly, as is inevitable in our small world of dance, some of the individuals have HISTORY (or are rapidly acquiring it)! So I will avoid that path, but since I have given the ISSUE of excuses for perving some thought I do have a constructive suggestion to make....

Why not on weekender booking forms include a small box which contains text similar to the following:

"It is acknowledged that moves taught in UCP/Blues/Dirty Dancing Classes, Dips and Drops, and Arials Classes are not to be used in freestyle except with a partner who has verbally consented in advance to practising part of such classes."

This could be accompanied with a tick or inital box, which every attendee must mark in advance of the weekender, whilst sober, no arguments about not being aware of the rules. Bang go one set of excuses!

This is something which could spread as an etiquette and greatly improve a number of areas of dance. It does not throw off "perv alarms" - and also may reduce some physical injuries. In practice it is not unweildy - I have on several occasions been lead out to dance by someone who has said " I saw you in XXXX's class this morning - like to give it a try?" Ladies can easily accept or decline gracefully without giving offence..."Oh, it hurt my back after a bit, I'd rather not!"

As I've always said - lets use our energies to target the pervs - not waste our ammunition firing into the smokescreen!

ducasi
19th-June-2005, 01:57 PM
I know I shouldn't do this, but I can't stop myself...

First, I don't know any of the people involved in this rant – besides a couple of people earlier in the thread who weren't saying anything particularly contentious. I've never been to any "UCP" workshop, and the most UCP move I know is maybe a slow comb – not very UC or P, really.

For me the key issue here is that there are some nasty people in the world, and they need to be told how to behave better. And if they don't they need to be dealt with appropriately. At the same time, one has to be careful not to misunderstand innocent behaviour, or accidental contact. I'd hope though that experienced dancers and event organisers can clear up these confusions, leaving just the true miscreants to deal with.

The proposed appropriate "punishment" could range from a quiet word, all the way up to criminal prosecution, depending on the actual offence.

As for classes where particularly intimate moves are taught, I'm very much a "live and let live" kind of guy. I'm no idea what is taught, so I've no idea if they would be to my taste. (They certainly sound interesting though. :wink: :devil: )

(I'm actually wondering how you can dance and simulate oral sex at the same time, but perhaps I'm just naive.)

Some people have criticised them and labelled them "porn". Then gone on to imply that they are a cause of inappropriate behaviour, that they provide an excuse, and for these reasons should be banned.

At the same time, apparently hundreds of people attend these classes and don't seem to become perverts. Likewise, there are doubtless many pervert dancers who have never been to any of these classes but who still manage to creep out their partners. Perverts don't need an excuse, but they'll always have one ready...

I'm curious whether the move-censors also think that other things outside of dancing that are also labelled "porn" lead to inappropriate behaviour, provide excuses, and so also should be banned?

Because, again, millions of people appreciate "porn" seemingly without becoming perverts. (Though if they choose to act out what they see with other consenting adult(s), does that make them perverts? In fact, as people in private do choose to carry out this sort of stuff, then these moves are not so-much drawn from the world of porn and perversion as drawn from the world of consensual sex. No?)

In and out of the dance world, there is never an excuse to go beyond what another person wants to do with you, especially if they've already made it clear what the limits are.

Miss Fletch, I mostly agree with what you're saying, but I do think you're taking on an overly aggressive stance on the subject which has offended some people. I'm not offended by your posts, but I think you could still make your point without upsetting so many people. As you criticise people and blame them for keeping people from the forum, you may also be doing the same thing.

Just something to think about...

ducasi
19th-June-2005, 03:36 PM
Oops!

Suddenly this thread has gone quiet, and I've received positive reps from people on both sides of the recent argument. :really:

Seems I need to re-read my own advice. (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=125666#post125666)

:wink:

Andy McGregor
19th-June-2005, 03:47 PM
Oops!

Suddenly this thread has gone quiet, and I've received positive reps from people on both sides of the recent argument. :really:

Seems I need to re-read my own advice. (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=125666#post125666)

:wink:Sorry,I've been tidying the garage - it's Father's day and I can do what I like :wink:

Besides, Fletch has started calling us all "sweetie". Of course we're going to be nice :waycool:

I've noticed that Fletch has posted the content of a PM from Gus on this thread. I have also had a PM exchange with Fletch. I will not repeat what Fletch wrote to me as her message to me was sent as a Private one but I'm happy to repeat my reply to her PM'd question about what I've got against Mikey . Here it is;

I currently have no issues with Mikey. We fell out over business a few years ago, it was just that and no more. I've got over it. I have not spoken with him for years and can see no reason to do so. I am genuinely concerned about the possible decline of our dance due to the teaching of moves that simulate sex acts. And that is all I'm debating. To some extent it is a shame that Mikey and I have a history as it gives people a way of saying my opinions are biased without proper debate about the issues.

Thank you for PMing me and giving me the chance to explain further.

Kind regards.

Andy

I wonder why Fletch posted the content of a PM reply from Gus and not mine?

David Bailey
19th-June-2005, 04:40 PM
Sorry,I've been tidying the garage - it's Father's day and I can do what I like :wink:
And that's what you like? :what: That's "punishment" for me...

Personally, I like sitting in out of the sun and watching forum wars, so that's my, err, treat for today... :blush:

Dreadful Scathe
19th-June-2005, 05:58 PM
I wonder why Fletch posted the content of a PM reply from Gus and not mine?

Possibly because Gus's PM was more likely to support her ideas and yours wasn't? Call me cynical :)

I wonder if Fletch is named after the famous fictional investigative reporter ;)

Minnie M
19th-June-2005, 05:59 PM
Possibly because Gus's PM was more likely to support her ideas and yours wasn't? Call me cynical :)

I wonder if Fletch is named after the famous fictional investigative reporter ;)
more like the one doing porridge :whistle:

DangerousCurves
19th-June-2005, 06:10 PM
Possibly because Gus's PM was more likely to support her ideas and yours wasn't? Call me cynical :)

;)

....or possibly because she was answering Lynn's post, which didn't mention Andy.

.... or there again, possibly because Andy signed off with a polite "Kind Regards" whilst Gus opened his with a couple of insults questioning her impartiality and adding a sexual slur. Nice way to welcome a new Member!

So - Welcome Fletch! Hope you enjoy the Forum, with its lively cut and thrust of debate.... and enjoy even more the friendships and fun which go along with it if you stay on board and weather the storms!

Feelingpink
19th-June-2005, 06:15 PM
Extremely valid points which have also being pointed out by other members and sadly no notice taken.

Points may well have been made ... there is no obligation for anyone to agree with them.


I had a friend look at this earlier from his office and he agrees, this whole discussion is getting very dangerously close to ending in legal Action and if that happened it would be a very sad state of affairs.

If you can't get everyone on the forum to agree with you, get people outside to do that? Heaven forbid that we have differing points of view.


My mother used to say "if you don't have anything goos to say, don't say it anything at all" now while we cannot be litteral in that andd say nothing when we dislike .. i do feel there are boundries that should not be crossed and this forum really looks close to that boundry.

The forum will always have points of dislike as well as like because it is, by definition, a forum - a place for discussion. I love a cogent, well-argued debate from different personalities. What I dislike is someone cracking the whip, telling me that my point of view is invalid simply because it is not the same as theirs (if they're just cracking the whip, it's a different matter entirely :devil: ). Do you ever dance with girls Fletch?

djtrev
19th-June-2005, 06:46 PM
As there seems to be a slight lull in the proceedings while Fletch chills out,I would just like to say what a bloody good couple of days debate/discussion I have just had.What with this thread;also the ones on the aftermath of Southport and dance immigration;its been a damn good read.
Now can we all kiss and make up and arrange to see each other in September

David Bailey
19th-June-2005, 06:52 PM
Points may well have been made ... there is no obligation for anyone to agree with them.


I had a friend look at this earlier from his office and he agrees, this whole discussion is getting very dangerously close to ending in legal Action and if that happened it would be a very sad state of affairs.
If you can't get everyone on the forum to agree with you, get people outside to do that? Heaven forbid that we have differing points of view.
No, no, no, you're missing the point. Implying legal action is the next level in classic Usenet debating techniques, the classic goalpost-moving manoeuvre. Fantastic; real old school stuff. You young 'uns just don't appreciate the skill in these things you know.

I'm now eagerly awaiting the first 2005 Goodwin's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law) entry for this year. I think this thread can go the distance, I'm certainly rooting for it to happen...

(I know, we've had one in 2004 (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=74933#post74933), and Gus classically invoked it in 2003 (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=43704&postcount=66) but those were both before I joined. So obviously they don't count :innocent: )

DangerousCurves
19th-June-2005, 07:00 PM
Whilst it looks like everything that needs to be said on this thread has been said, (and then some), Mikey has asked me to correct a couple of factual inaccuracies in the PM from Gus that was quoted earlier....

1. The message could be taken to imply that Mikey and Gus "go way back". This is not so. Mikey has no recollection of Gus amongst the social dancers when he taught at Peterborough approximately 12 years ago. If he was there, they certainly were not acquaintances. Mikey is also puzzled as to why, if Gus saw him teaching there on a Ceroc stage, he is of the opinion that Mikey has no qualifications - since Ceroc only allowed Ceroc qualified teachers on their stages.

2. The one and only time Mikey ever recalls meeting Gus was in Manchester approximately 1 year ago. They were introduced to each other - obviously Mikey knew Gus's name from the forum - and were perfectly pleasant with each other. In Mikey's own words they were both "sweet as pie". Since then they have never spoken or met each other. Any opinions which Gus may have formed since then are not based on either a long acquaintance or first hand experience, but must rather be stories heard second-hand, or the infamous chinese whispers which plague this forum.

Hope that clarifies matters.

Dreadful Scathe
19th-June-2005, 08:49 PM
Hope that clarifies matters.

This is a new one. A Private Message being analysed on the forum. So who do we believe. Gus or Mikey (through his spokesperson). Listen.....

...
...

That was the sound of lots of people not particularly caring :)


Course if someone could go round and rake about in Gus's bins we could find out what hes been eating for dinner :) We really ought to know.

Bet he's an ASDA shopper.

Andy McGregor
19th-June-2005, 09:21 PM
Now, here's a thought. Fletch seems quite happy to post a PM from Gus. But she has not posted the PM/email which she received about me and Gus. Come on Fletch let's hear it all - what have you got to hide/lose?

.. sweetie :innocent:

David Bailey
19th-June-2005, 09:26 PM
Bet he's an ASDA shopper.
:rofl: You're probably right you know, I believe that Asda is the closest supermarket to him, living out in the sticks as he does... :)

Is ASDA an acronym or a name? I assumed it was a name?

Danger Mouse
20th-June-2005, 06:56 AM
p.s. Anyone else notice that Danger Mouse is from Staffordshire and Fletch is from Stafford? Coincidence?

Pure coincidence, the only Fletch I know was in Porridge. Anyway Staffordshire (aka Speed Camera county) is a rather large county.

DavidY
20th-June-2005, 09:56 AM
Is ASDA an acronym or a name? I assumed it was a name?I believe it's from "ASsociated DAiries"

Lynn
20th-June-2005, 10:07 AM
Now, here's a thought. Fletch seems quite happy to post a PM from Gus. But she has not posted the PM/email which she received about me and Gus. Come on Fletch let's hear it all - what have you got to hide/lose?

.. sweetie :innocent: No posting of PMs from anyone please! Unless, like Andy, you post from a PM you have sent yourself - but posting what someone else has written in a PM is not fair play, or good forum ettiquette. I didn't see it and am glad to see it has been removed.

I'm getting annoyed about all this, and it takes a fair bit to get me annoyed. :innocent: What I'm most annoyed about is someone coming on here and saying people are put off by what is written here, then that same person passing on 'chinese whispers', stirring things up and passing on things from PMs. :mad:

Now, can we get back to reasoned debate? :flower:

Well, OK, as reasoned as it gets on here!

Little Monkey
20th-June-2005, 10:48 AM
Now, can we get back to reasoned debate? :flower:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Aaaaah, Lynn, you've got me in stitches! Fab sense of humor.... :wink: :whistle:

Cheeky Monkey :hug:

Andy McGregor
20th-June-2005, 11:16 AM
I'm getting annoyed about all this, and it takes a fair bit to get me annoyed. :innocent: What I'm most annoyed about is someone coming on here and saying people are put off by what is written here, then that same person passing on 'chinese whispers', stirring things up and passing on things from PMs. :mad: My own opinion, FWIW is that Fletch does not exist in the real world as she has presented herself to us. Of course she exists - but I don't think she's being completely honest with us about her motivation or sources of information. I am not accusing Fletch of being a 'Sleazebag' so I've set up another thread for us to debate 'The Reality of Fletch'. You can find it here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5623).

Dreadful Scathe
20th-June-2005, 11:22 AM
I believe it's from "ASsociated DAiries"

Stop interupting this thread with real proable facts!! :)

MartinHarper
20th-June-2005, 04:09 PM
Hi fletch and welcome.


Cheek to Cheek

Meh - I wouldn't call that a classic move. The lean is clearly a classic Ceroc move, though - so fair point. I had my mind stuck on face-to-face or face-to-back contact, for some reason, and missed the obvious.


Especially the first one who simulated oral sex.

Would have been less tacky without the repeat. Poor girl was rather audience-struck. Must be tough to have your mind go blank mid-seduction, especially in front of an audience that big. Ick at performance anxiety.


Will stopping Viktor, Mikey, Robert and Nicky [...] actually stop individuals from going too far?

While I'm thinking of it, N&N taught a variation in the "Dancing the Blues" class that they specifically noted was inappropriate for complete strangers. Again, female-led. Personally, I don't find the idea of a heel in the groin particularly erotic, but there you are.


This sounds oh so very much like 'you have not come to the same opinion as me about Mikey so watch his video repeatedly until you do'.

Well, there was a DVD just of the weekend, so anyone who wanted to reach an informed opinion can do so without contributing any money to Mikey's wallet (well, directly anyway). Sadly, I'm told it might take as long as eight weeks to arrive.

----

When my partner starts moving her body in a wildly sexy way, I tend to watch her. I figure it would be somewhat churlish to maintain fixed eye contact when she's playing around with some piece of styling that shouts "check me out!". In the light of this thread (and similar ones), is it safe to "look but not touch"?