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View Full Version : Is Ceroc a dance or an organisation?



Floyd
8th-December-2002, 04:03 PM
After many years of attending Ceroc events, and after a few days of perusing this forum, I am well aware that a large number of people believes that the dance they 'do' at Ceroc events is called Ceroc. People say things like 'can we Ceroc to this?', 'is it Cerocable?', they talk about 'dancing Ceroc'. And so on; the list of variations is endless.

Sometimes, of course, it is simply used as shorthand, but the widespread incorrect use of the word 'Ceroc' has created a general perception that Ceroc is a dance. The truth is the Ceroc is just one of many organisations teaching a form of jive. A very successful organisation, but that is not the point.

I have even heard people say, when the opportunity of attending a non-Ceroc, jive event comes up, '...but I can't jive...'. What do they think they are doing when they attend Ceroc events, I wonder. We don't talk about 'BSMing' when we mean driving...

Why is this? Does it matter? Does anyone else care?

TheTramp
8th-December-2002, 04:33 PM
Floyd,

I quite agree with you. But I don't think that this sort of thing is limited to dance/ceroc. Examples are:

Hamburgers - how many people go to get a hamburger, and how many go to get a MacDonald?

Football. People go to watch football, but would quite often refer to it by the name of the club they watch.

Indeed, it's only in certain parts of the country that ceroc would be used as the way to describe the local jive night. In Bristol and Brighton, then people would say 'can you LeRoc to this'. Indeed, when I first started dancing in Brighton, I was known as 'Ceroc Steve' (although, that's now changed!).

Personally, I call it jive, but I really don't think that it matters too much - except when people start to think that their own organisation is the limit to 'jiving'.

Steve

Gus
8th-December-2002, 04:52 PM
Originally posted by Floyd
The truth is the Ceroc is just one of many organisations teaching a form of jive. A very successful organisation, but that is not the point.


Ahhhh .. actualy the name Ceroc came before the phrase 'Modern Jive' ... and we certainly don't JIVE ... appraently thats another term for Rock'n'Roll ... OK ... I stand to be corrected on all the above but this i what I've been told by sage dancers who were there at the 'beginning'. When Messr Cronin brought back the original French 'Le Roc' .... he apparently modified both the dance and developed the teaching style and presnetation. Ceroc (appears to be) as much about its delivery as about the moves and 'dance style'.

So .. I would have to say that, from what I've been told, Ceroc IS a dance style ... though what others teach (LeROC etc ) is very similar ... but who was first?:wink:




Why is this? Does it matter? Does anyone else care?

Well ... on the inside of all this, away from the dancefloor ... there has been a lot of debate/argument/threats etc. But if you're just here for the dancing .... then no ... just dance where you feel free to and let the 'Organisations' worry about the politics.

Dreadful Scathe
8th-December-2002, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp

Hamburgers - how many people go to get a hamburger, and how many go to get a MacDonald?


Never heard anyone use that particular terminology unless they actually meant McDonalds but I know what you mean. The most common one is to ask for a 'coke' when you want a cola (coke being a trademark fo Coca Cola). Or talking about your 'hoover' when you have a Dysan vaccum cleaner etc..

as far as Ceroc goes Ive only over noticed people who only dance Ceroc to refer to jive as Ceroc, all the Le Roc people I know refer to it as 'Jive' or 'French jive' as that is the dance style. I disagree with Gus on this, Ceroc is certainly not a style in itself. there are plenty other companies that dominate teaching particular dances to the public in certain areas but their name doesnt become synonymous with the style of dance. This is probably mostly due to Ceroc being so well organized but insular, even to the point of not really advertising non-ceroc dancing - it propogates the myth, especcially to new people, that Ceroc is a dance - when it isnt - its prime feature is in its structure and teaching of jive, the moves differ round the whole of the jive world anyway or even within Ceroc itself. e.g. I learnt a move at a Ceroc class in London that had the same signal as a different move taught at an Edinburgh Ceroc class - so its not anymore confusing to learn moves at a non-ceroc jive class and use them at a Ceroc night...much less confusing sometimes. I think the 'who was first' is meaningless as modern jive is derived from French Jive. Anyway isnt 'Glasgow Jive' much older than Ceroc in the UK ?

Lou
8th-December-2002, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
all the Le Roc people I know refer to it as 'Jive' or 'French jive' as that is the dance style.
With the exception of me, that is! :wink: Oooh... and I call my Dyson "the Dyson". :what: :yum:

Floyd
8th-December-2002, 10:52 PM
I actually call my vacuum cleaner manufactured by hoover a vacuum cleaner

Gus
9th-December-2002, 12:25 AM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
. I disagree with Gus on this, Ceroc is certainly not a style in itself. there are plenty other companies that dominate teaching particular dances to the public in certain areas but their name doesnt become synonymous with the style of dance

Anyway isnt 'Glasgow Jive' much older than Ceroc in the UK ?

The point I was trying to make is that Ceroc was FIRST .... so therefore it ia 'alleged' that the other styles/associations copied Ceroc. Interstingly enough the Godfather of LeRoc in the UK (sorry forgot his name) claims in his book that a young James Cronin came to him with the idea to expand LeRoc ... into what was to become Ceroc. However, my contact who 'was there at the time' suggested that this was not the truth .... allegedly.

So dunno .... if the claim that Ceroc was the first to the market with its own blend of French Jive .,.. then it can rightly claim to be a dance style. The only other association that appears to have any claim would be LeRoc ... and even being in the game the short space I ahve I've seen obvious moves from some LeRoc operations to copy Ceroc ...so who knows the truth ... well unless James himself goes to print ... I doubt we will ever know:what:

Floyd
9th-December-2002, 09:51 AM
Jive existed long before Ceroc appeared. Ceroc has simply taken a load of moves from other forms of dance and now uses a successful format for putting them across. Sure, it has given moves new names and also adopted the very tedious practise of stringing loads of them together, giving them a long and tedious name and pretending it's yet another move. When you break them down there really are not that many moves taught by Ceroc - but that's another point entirely.

Gus
9th-December-2002, 11:38 AM
Originally posted by Floyd
Jive existed long before Ceroc appeared. Ceroc has simply taken a load of moves from other forms of dance and now uses a successful format for putting them across

Sorry ... but have to disagree with this. Jive is/was something else. Jive was originaly a term for Rock'n'Roll. Look at what Kav Kavanaugh (world Jive champ) teaches ... THATS jive ... as he says authentic 1950's jive.....and he quite clear it is NOT Modern Jive.

As I said ... what Ceroc teach is something that James Cronin (OR LeROC) developed and so is clearly a new dance. The only real debate point is what came first ... Ceroc or Modern Jive?

PS: nice debate but bit like establishing the origins of Stone Henge ... interesting but not really of much impact these days....:nice:

TheTramp
9th-December-2002, 11:56 AM
I'm not sure, and am prepared to be shot down in flames on this one...

Does it actually matter who came first? Ceroc is still an organisation, whether they developed the style or not. The style is still jive, whether you call it modern, or French.

Someone developed Rock & Roll. But whoever it was, is long forgotten, and it's the style that remains. I guess it's possible that originally there was a company called 'Rock & Roll', but it's probably unlikely.

I imagine that one day in the future, there is the possibility that the organisation will no longer exist, but the dance will still be there. It's unlikely that it will be called ceroc in that case.

Once again, I'm not sure that I've put across quite what I mean. I'm prepared for debate!! (If anyone is still interested and awake!!)

Steve

Gus
9th-December-2002, 12:42 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Does it actually matter who came first? Ceroc is still an organisation, whether they developed the style or not. The style is still jive, whether you call it modern, or French.
Steve

Fair point ... don't think it really matters (unless you are in business of modern jive then it can matter lots....).

The intersting thing is that I'm yet to hear anyone define what Modern Jive is. Ceroc is whatever Ceroc teach ..... not sure if taht makes any more or any less sense.

Re it being called JIVE .... sorry .. that I really do have a problem with. say JIVE to Jo Puiblic and they're thinking retro dancing, quiffed haircuts and rock around the clock ... no wonder we've got an image problem! The whole reason I got into Ceroc/Modern Jive was that I could dance it to modern music at places where normal people go i.e. parties, weddings, nightclubs ... not just some little village hall somewhere... personal view entirely :wink:

Jusr re-rad what I wrote. Ceroc CAN be all things to all people ... some popel like the retro-R&R thing ... and thats great. Its just that I don't ... each to their own etc. :waycool:

Franck
9th-December-2002, 01:21 PM
Originally posted by Floyd
Sometimes, of course, it is simply used as shorthand, but the widespread incorrect use of the word 'Ceroc' has created a general perception that Ceroc is a dance. The truth is the Ceroc is just one of many organisations teaching a form of jive. A very successful organisation, but that is not the point.Hi Floyd, and welcome to the Forum.

The premise you raise, while interesting, is too limiting to do the subject proper credit.

Ceroc is a dance in its own right. The moves and styles of music are clearly defined. It does however cover such a wide range of musical styles as well as dance styles, that you could also say that Ceroc was a form of Salsa, or a form of Swing, as well as a form of Jive...
Ceroc takes its inspiration from the French form of Jive, referred to as "Rock'n Roll" in France, often shortened to "le rock", as in "Tu sais danser le rock?".
French Rock'n Roll, as discussed in another thread is already very different from the British version(s) of Jive, but both took their inspiration from the American GIs during the second world war...

Ceroc is also an organization with a stated aim to promote dancing to as wide an audience as possible. It also provides the best training infrastructure for all Ceroc teachers and a network of support for all new and existing franchisees. Opening a new night in a new area is tough and can take a lot of time and effort. Ceroc, as an organization, has been very successful at opening in new areas of the UK and in the process, created a huge market and appetite for other dance styles.

This is where your premise: dance vs organization fails though. Ceroc is both, but ultimately, Ceroc is much more than either. Ceroc is a concept, whereby you could take complex dances / moves and simplify them to their essence, where footwork and musical style don't matter anymore.
Ceroc is (and hopefully will remain IMHO) a place where everyone is welcome, and where any style (or lack thereof) does not matter as long as the participants are having fun and enjoying their own dance with their partner!
Of course, Ceroc did not invent dancing, or most moves, but it did create a way of teaching the moves that made them accessible to anyone, whether they have 2 left feet or not. :nice:

In the light of the above, whether people choose to call the dance Ceroc or something else, does not really matter, but the reason they do (and the dictionary + a few recent novels agree) is that there is no other 'suitable' word for what is a new(ish) concept. Modern Jive / French Jive are more descriptions than names.

I hope the above helps (though I agree it's probably to long :sad: )

Franck.

P.S. I agree about the overly long moves as well, eventhough, they serve a purpose as they offer ideas / variations that might not occur to the less experienced dancer. :nice:

TheTramp
9th-December-2002, 01:44 PM
Thanks for clearing that up then Franck!

I even read all the post :D

Steve

Basil Brush (Forum Plant)
9th-December-2002, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by Floyd
Jive existed long before Ceroc appeared. Ceroc has simply taken a load of moves from other forms of dance and now uses a successful format for putting them across....

Yes- I agree with you Floyd. I was at a ceroc class recently where we were taught a mambo move, and another last month where we did some lindy kicks. Ceroc however has cleverly adapted moves from other styles and put them into a simplistic format making it a very accessible dance style. It could be construed as bit synthetic, and I have heard some refer to it as a stepping stone to 'proper' dancing.

I think it is a great concept thought. I am not really bothered whether or not it's a dance form in it's own right, but I think it deserves to be after x(?) years.

James Cronin... he must be well bolted!

TheTramp
9th-December-2002, 01:55 PM
James Cronin... he must be well boltedIt's not true. I've seen James on several occasions, and I can confidently state that he doesn't have any bolts what-so-ever. He doesn't even have an earring. I can't speak for any interesting piercings though. You'll have to ask Janie that one....

Steve

Gus
9th-December-2002, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by Basil Brush
James Cronin... he must be well bolted! Translate?

TheTramp
9th-December-2002, 02:03 PM
Well.....you've seen Frankenstein, haven't you....

Least, that's what I took it to mean :rolleyes:

Steve

DavidB
9th-December-2002, 02:43 PM
Definition
I still haven't found a decent definition of Modern Jive. The best I can come up with is:
"Modern Jive is a lead-follow partner dance, based around a combination of simple 2-count walked steps. There is no fixed footwork, and virtually any variations can and do get used. The timing emphasises the downbeat, with the lead on the upbeat. Most leads are hand-to-hand, in an open position. The dance is usually circular, as opposed to being slotted, and typically there is movement from both the leader and the follower."

(The US Swing Dance Server describes it as: "The French form of the dance, where there is NO footwork, so it's very easy. These make up for that by doing very complex 6/8 beat moves with the arms. Looks very good for a while, but is mechanical, and contains little expression. ")

Is Ceroc a dance.
Sorry - no. I would only consider it to be THE name for the dance if:
- non-Cerocers only used the name Ceroc, and no other name.
- only Ceroc taught it at the beginning, and for the first few years
- Ceroc took it to an established dance body and asked for it to be formalised.
- Ceroc allowed the name to be used by anyone else

I know Ceroc didn't invented the dance. The only common theme to any of the claims are that it started in France, not London. The first people to teach it (whoever they are) learned it in France. It seems to have its roots in the single-step swing of the '60s, and the 3 & 4 count hustle & Disco-fox if the '70s. Ceroc might have helped develop the dance in the early years, but not recently. (Sorry - I don't think of new combinations of moves is 'developing' the dance.)

But Ceroc is definitely a major influence on Modern Jive. They are the largest organisation that teach Jive. They have standardised the teaching, and introduced different combinations of moves. They have set up a large number of classes around the country. Most importantly they have got a huge number of people dancing, and enjoying it.

Is Ceroc a style?
To me that means you have to be able to recognise a distinct difference between people who have only done Ceroc classes, compared to those who have learned another style of Modern Jive (from a non-Ceroc teacher!)

David

PS Ceroc did not invent good teaching, or simplifying dancing, or including other dance styles, or stringing together moves. They do not have a monopoly on teaching non-dancers to have fun, or dancing to a range of musical styles & tempos. Jive is not the only dance where you don't have to do footwork, or can improvise.

TheTramp
9th-December-2002, 02:54 PM
Ceroc allowed the name to be used by anyone elseActually, I think that's the best reason for not calling it a style that has been put forward.

Steve

PS. Thanks for the dance on Saturday David. I enjoyed it, even if I do have a way to go on my following!!!

Franck
9th-December-2002, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
I know Ceroc didn't invented the dance. The only common theme to any of the claims are that it started in France, not London. The first people to teach it (whoever they are) learned it in France. Ceroc never started in France as such, the inspiration for Ceroc in the UK (London to start with), came from France. To its great loss, France does not have any Ceroc (or other similar) dance classes / nights. Most Rock'n roll classes in France are very similar to the format used in Jive / Swing classes in the UK, with a strong emphasis on footwork / technique.
The only reason France inspired the creation of Ceroc, was that most French people are either very lazy or very relaxed, and they would take a few classes to pick up a few useful moves, and then proceed to make up the rest on any dance floor; with the main aim to be able to ask a girl for a dance!
That general attitude is what you can see at most French Balls, discos, clubs, etc... There are (quite) a few serious dancers in France, and from my experience, they spend their time criticizing those that dance for personal enjoyment rather than show!
I learnt a bit of French Rock'n Roll when I was 12/14 in secondary school, picked up a few moves, was pretty useless at it, but it served me in reasonably good stead at all the 14th July dances, so I did not have to be a wallflower :nice:

PS Ceroc did not invent good teaching, or simplifying dancing, or including other dance styles, or stringing together moves. They do not have a monopoly on teaching non-dancers to have fun, or dancing to a range of musical styles & tempos. Jive is not the only dance where you don't have to do footwork, or can improvise. Indeed not, Ceroc did not invent any of those things in isolation, but certainly brought them all together and standardized them across all Ceroc classes.
We do not have a monopoly on teaching non-dancers to have fun, but again from my perspective / experience, most other dance classes take the technique / footwork so seriously that they put off new people before they get the chance to discover the fun aspects! I would be interested in hearing otherwise though, and I agree, that there must be classes out there that deliver, but not on the same scale and with the same guarantees as Ceroc!
The only exception I know, is Ceilidh dancing in Scotland, where everyone gives it a go, everyone learns the basic steps on the night (if required) and most people don't care if things don't work out, they just laugh it off and keep dancing!
I wish there was more of that in the dance world!

Franck.

Franck
9th-December-2002, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Originally posted by DavidB
Ceroc allowed the name to be used by anyone elseActually, I think that's the best reason for not calling it a style that has been put forward.Ceroc is keeping the name to protect its goodwill / reputation and standards. There are already many 'Cow-boy teachers' out there who run very poor nights, and given the chance they would use the name Ceroc, bringing all other nights into disrepute.
Ceroc is (rightly) proud of its training course and standards across the board, it would be a shame to jeopardize all that.
I can't see either Hoover or Dyson allowing other companies to re-badge their vaccuum cleaners either, even if in the real world, people will still call a Dyson imitation made by another brand a 'Dyson', or even a Hoover!

Whether people decide to call the style of dancing Ceroc or not is out of our remit / spheres of influence, as long as no better name comes forward, people will use the most logical one (be it Ceroc, Leroc or otherwise) depending on what the largest presence is.

Franck.

TheTramp
9th-December-2002, 04:17 PM
Sorry Franck,

I wasn't intending critiscism in this, and I understand the reasons for ceroc to protect it's name (in the same way that other companies would do exactly the same).

This was, to me, just the reason for not calling it a dance style, rather than an organisation promoting this particular style.

While I have my own views on ceroc, I would agree that they have been instrumental in bringing many people into dance, that would previously have never thought that they would be interested (including myself). I also agree that their standard format of a nights dancing is very sucessful.

Steve

Franck
9th-December-2002, 04:25 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
I wasn't intending critiscism in this, and I understand the reasons for ceroc to protect it's name (in the same way that other companies would do exactly the same).

This was, to me, just the reason for not calling it a dance style, rather than an organisation promoting this particular style.No worries, I did not take it as a criticism at all :nice:
I was keen to clarify the point you raised however, as Ceroc (the dance and the philosophy) are subjects very close to my heart :nice:
I probably sound evangelical most of the time, but I do believe the hype!

There are many things that could be improved with Ceroc (the dance and the organization), and I and other franchisees are working with Ceroc HQ to improve Ceroc on a day to day basis.

Anyway, thanks for your words, and I 'do' hope you get the opportunity to grace the Ceroc nights down South with your presence once more :wink:

Franck.

TheTramp
9th-December-2002, 04:29 PM
I 'do' hope you get the opportunity to grace the Ceroc nights down South with your presence once more I'm not quite sure that most people down here (or anywhere else for that matter) see my presence as being particularly graceful!! But thanks for the compliment :yum:

Steve

Dance Demon
9th-December-2002, 06:46 PM
I am in total agreement with Floyd. However having gone to various different styles of jive class, I now find myself incorporating all the different styles into my own dancing, which can be a bit awkward when dancing with a dedicated Ceroc taught dancer. Back in the good old days!!!!! both Leroc and Ceroc were referred to as French Jive. The term Modern Jive seems to have replaced this recently, possibly because there are so many other organisations now teaching the dance to Modern music. I take on board the point about rock 'n' roll, which is my preferrence, and I have no quibble with being called a jiver as originally I attended Leroc and Ceroc to learn how to Jive. It is worth noting that the original Jive style was Lindy Hop or Jitterbug. All of the other Jive syles have evolved from there. It's all a matter of personal taste. If your preference is to dance to chart music or "handbag music" then Ceroc is definately for you.

Gus
10th-December-2002, 01:56 AM
Originally posted by Dance Demon
If your preference is to dance to chart music or "handbag music" then Ceroc is definately for you. And if you want to dance to cool jazz and the like Ceroc can still definitely be for you :wink: Though it has its downsides, I've found Ceroc to be a very adaptable dance style ... maybe more so than the classic swing dances. (IMHO of course)

Question, don't you find the Lindy style dancing a bit restrictive in that it appears that it can only be used to Swing music ... or am I doing it a great disservice? ... honest question ... not being ODA for once.

Dance Demon
10th-December-2002, 06:32 PM
you have a valid point there, and there are a lot of swing dancers who will only lindy to traditional swing e.g. Basie Miller Goodman etc. Others prefer the more modern style swing E.G Indigo Swing, The Jive Aces. My own preference is for the more roots R'n'B style of Amos Milburn, Joe Turner, T Bone Walker, which is a more universal style of music as it lets you dance just about any style of Jive, and makes the lindy style moves look more dynamic.

Floyd
10th-December-2002, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by Dance Demon
If your preference is to dance to chart music or "handbag music" then Ceroc is definately for you.


Originally posted by Gus
I've found Ceroc to be a very adaptable dance style

The above quotations highlight the problem - the word Ceroc is being used in two different ways (I think - apologies if I've got the wrong end of the stick)

I understand Dance Demon's comment to mean that if you like dancing to chart music then Ceroc,the event, is ideal because most of the music played at Ceroc events is, sadly, modern chart stuff.

Gus, on the other hand, is using the word Ceroc to mean the dance form taught by Ceroc. That dance form is indeed very adaptable and can be danced to any music with an even number of beats to the bar (i.e. not 3/4 etc.). My preference is to use elements of what I was taught at Ceroc for jiving to jive/swing/r'n'r music - it takes the dance form onto another plane instead of just going through the motions which is how dancing to chart music feels (to me).

Incidentally, the dance taught by Ceroc is not unique in that it can be danced to any even timed music. Any dance form designed to be danced to even timed music can be danced to any even timed music. Any dance designed to be danced to 3/4 music can be danced to any 3/4 music. etc.

So - you can jive to Mozart's Eine Kleine Nacht Musik and you can waltz to Peter Spence's post-punk, 3/4 time, classic 'Winter of Discontent'.

Of course, some music is more appropriate for certains styles of dance than others... which takes me back to my comment on the music which I prefer to jive to....


:cheers:

Will
11th-December-2002, 12:27 AM
The answer to the title of the thread is that Ceroc is both a dance and an organisation (or to be more accurate, a business).

Ceroc isn't Modern Jive. Modern Jive is a descriptive word of Ceroc, rather like calling Salsa 'hespanic jive' or something like that. Like Gus said earlier, the term 'Modern Jive' was born long after 'Ceroc'.

Basically what happened was that when James Cronin invented Ceroc, he was able to copywrite the name, but not the dance style (It's nigh on impossible to copywrite a dance style). Hence, people were able to replicate the style, but not the name (at least in the UK), so naturally a common descriptive name evolved - e.g. Modern Jive.

To use the Hoover / Vacuum Clearner analogy is actually a bit off the mark. To correct this analogy:- Imagine the first company to come up with a vacuum cleaner patented the name 'Vacuum Cleaner' instead of Hoover. Now imagine another company starts to manufacture the same basic device, but because it can't use the name 'Vacuum Cleaner' calls it's product a 'suction powered cleaning device' (i.e Modern Jive).

I know that there is some confusion about the roots of Ceroc. i.e. "How can Ceroc an original dance style if they've been doing it in France for years and someone just brought it over to the UK in 1980?" Well to answer that question for yourself, just go to France and dance (as I have). You'll find that it is Significantly different. To make the point, I've been doing Ceroc for a number of years, but when to France to do French Jive I stuggled terribly. However, I danced with this one girl, and as soon as we started to dance, she said to me that she had been in England for 3 months and done something called 'Ceroc' in London, and that she thought that I was a Ceroc dancer. It really is so blantantly different to what they do in France.

Hope this helps :nice:

Floyd
11th-December-2002, 01:06 AM
Originally posted by Will
The answer to the title of the thread is that Ceroc is both a dance and an organisation (or to be more accurate, a business).



I don't see how the dance can be called Ceroc when the dance exists in its own right outside Ceroc (the business) e.g. most of the moves can be seen in very old dance-related film clips.

Ceroc (the business) has 'simply' produced a slick and successful package of which the various moves (which have existed for a very long time) form a part.


:cheers:

Gus
11th-December-2002, 02:17 AM
Originally posted by Floyd


I don't see how the dance can be called Ceroc when the dance exists in its own right outside Ceroc (the business) e.g. most of the moves can be seen in very old dance-related film clips.
:cheers:
Sorry but I have to disagree with this. As Will pinted out what has taken place is that a style of dancing ... the original Le Roc ... was taken from France ... reformed, and modified significantly THEN re-introduced to the UK. Over the last 20 years or so a number of moves jave been added which have been 'borrowed' from Lindy, Salsa, Hip Hop ... but what is taught is under the umbrealla 'style' name of Ceroc.

Ceroc is not unique in that ... and I take on board all the valid points raised by DaveB ..... but Ceroc is as original as Lindy ... that too is a hybrid, developing dance form ... so why shoud Ceroc be seen as being any diferent. If someone can define where the boundries of Ceroc are then please do!

There has been some comments about taking Ceroc then modifying it to take it to another plane ... but isn't that just taking Ceroc and doing it well?? Watch the top Cerocers ... V&L, H, Paul Tavanausa, Tubsy and Janine .... thats Ceroc that they do, just with their particular idiom. Agreed that a lot of the moves have origins in preceeding dance styles ... but many more do not!


So ... the point is??? who cares:wink: ....but I do think that people should seperate Ceroc the organisation from the dance. Ceroc organisation led the way to make partner dance sovcially acceptable and has been more succesfull than any other form of dance I've seen (I stand to be corrected) ... and many of the Modern Jive organisations trying to make their own mark are simply breakaways from Ceroc and its franchises.

Scot
11th-December-2002, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by Gus

and many of the Modern Jive organisations trying to make their own mark are simply breakaways from Ceroc and its franchises.

I have to agree with Gus on this one most of the Modern Jive organisations that I am aware of have had their orgins in Ceroc directly Eg Mojive, Blitz or indirectly having learned to Dance via Ceroc. It is therefore hard to see how this could not have influenced them in their own endeavours.

One of the things that always amazes me is that a lot of the people who started in Ceroc but then subsequently move on to something more technical or start up their own brand of Jive invariably criticize the very thing that got them dancing in the first place. In the extreme they become evangelistic about the difference between say Leroc and Ceroc where as in reality what they are in actual fact doing is Ceroc
Obviously those that move on to something more technical are not. However for those that I have seen that have moved on to swing etc when things go wrong they invariable revert to Ceroc to keep the dance going until they can reformulate what it was they were doing in the first place.

As regards hand bag music I take exception to that. Ceroc attempts to play a balance of music to cater to all tastes. Like many I prefer the older type music and if it were my choice ÒBrown Eyed GirlÓ and ÒMan I feel Like a WomenÓ would never see the light of day. However the floor is never busier than when these tracks are playing. From this I would conclude that my personal tastes in music are somewhat in the minority.

Ceroc has never claimed to be a technical dance. However it does have its own moves and it does have its own unique style much replicated by many. There was a tendency some time ago to join moves together and call them new moves. However these sorts of moves are no longer accepted by Ceroc and are in fact are being actively weeded out in favour of more original moves. Ceroc does of course take inspiration from other more Technical Dance styles but hey how the hell did dancing get started in the first place? it evolved!

Oops sorry got a bid carried away there

Gus
11th-December-2002, 12:17 PM
Originally posted by Scot
Like many I prefer the older type music and if it were my choice ÒBrown Eyed GirlÓ and ÒMan I feel Like a WomenÓ would never see the light of day.

Way to go Scott ... BUT ... "Brown Eyed Girl" IS older type music isn't it?? When I was a spotty youth listening to my Heavy Rock albums all those years ago, even then Messr Van Morrison was regarded as being from the time of the dinasours!


.......though I do agree with you about Shania Twain:wink:

Scot
11th-December-2002, 12:20 PM
Originally posted by Gus


Way to go Scott ... BUT ... "Brown Eyed Girl" IS older type music isn't it?? When I was a spotty youth listening to my Heavy Rock albums all those years ago, even then Messr Van Morrison was regarded as being from the time of the dinasours!


.......though I do agree with you about Shania Twain:wink:

Ah but is it "Hand Bag Music"

TheTramp
11th-December-2002, 12:25 PM
who started in Ceroc but then subsequently move on to something more technical or start up their own brand of Jive invariably criticize the very thing that got them dancing in the first placeSpot on Scot.

One of the main reasons that I've not moved on with Lindy is the supercilious attitude towards jive of a number of people (but by no means all) who do Lindy.

I was at beach boogie in 2001, and at one of the evening dances, a lady who I'd never met before asked me for a dance. After about 3 seconds, I realised that she wanted to lindy, so I got her in close, and said that I didn't do that. She looked at me like I was something that had crawled out from under a rock (no comments please), and said in a vastly superior tone of voice, 'Oh, you're a cerocer are you'.

Of course, it took me about another 3 seconds to work out that she was actually quite bad, and didn't even have the beat (a fact I confirmed a little later with a friend of mine who is a rather good Lindy dancer).

So, I've now started doing salsa instead. And having a great time. Course, the slightly more sexy style does sort of suit me! :D

Steve

Gadget
11th-December-2002, 12:29 PM
This thread makes interesting reading - thought I would add in my tuppence...

Originally posted by Floyd
I don't see how the dance can be called Ceroc when the dance exists in its own right outside Ceroc (the business) e.g. most of the moves can be seen in very old dance-related film clips.

?? the Ceroc franchise teaches you to dance. It takes individual elements or building blocks and strings them together to form moves and mini-routines.
You can know all the bits, but it is the way you are taught them and how to put them together that makes the dance uniquely 'Ceroc'.

I don't know if I am explaining myself very well: If you have a pile of Lego and no instructions, you can build stuff - putting it together to build what you want. But the Lego came with instructions to build what's on the front of the box.
Ceroc gives you a set of the bricks and some instructions. Freestyle lets you build your own model.
But there are other sets - space Lego and medieval Lego. They have roughly the same blocks and bits can be interchanged with no problem, with some bits definitely belonging to one set or another.
If you want to go and get other bits from other sets to add to your dancing, Ceroc lets you.
If you want to just use the blocks Ceroc gives you, you can.
If you want to build a repertoire for a specific music style, you can.

My vision of 'Ceroc' as a dance is of it being a melting pot for all the 'moves' that can be seen in every other form of dance - the 'best' ones {subjective term} being assimilated into the collective.(...perhaps with slightly less 'Borg' overtones :grin:)

So dancing 'Ceroc' is a dance style - just not a very specific one. One that is easy to get the basic bricks for, even if you don't follow the instructions or use them go on to a different style.

Ceroc as a franchise is basically there in an attempt to bind all the moves of Ceroc (as a dance) together - since the source and direction of every move is so diverse, without this binding and over time, it would fragment and loose the whole. By keeping 'Ceroc' as the main element, you can still have 'Jive', 'Blues', 'Club', 'Handbag'... sub-sections that perform two functions: They further enhance the main source and allow dancers to delve deeper into styles that suit them without leaving the familiarity of a core they know.

(sorry;:sorry: I know the 'Lego' thing is a very 'boy-ish' analogy, but I always used to get a little Lego model in the stocking at the end of my bed for Christmas :D)

Gus
11th-December-2002, 12:36 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp

One of the main reasons that I've not moved on with Lindy is the supercilious attitude towards jive of a number of people (but by no means all) who do Lindy.Steve

Thats hit a chord here too. I'm SICK TO THE BACK TEETH of Lindy hoppers who use the ...." oh when you're ready you can progress to Lindy".:reallymad :reallymad Sorry, but been there done that got the T-shirt and didn' like it! trained with Simon Selmon (lovely guy, great teacher), did Jumpin at the Woodside (did a Frankie Manning class ..... what a guy!!) ... still didn't get into it.

I do Ceroc because I like it more and it suits my style. I really don't aprrecaite being told that someones a better dancer than me just because they do Swing/Lindy!

Right ... calming down can I say that this attitude does not pervade all Lindyers ... I epecialy like the way that SSS expressed himeslf elsewhere in the forum.

I have a lot of time for LindyHop as a dance form ... its does look good and there are aspects of the dance that I've tried to borrow. I will alwyas enjoy watching the likes of Jump'n'Jive and 'Hev Mates' dancing ... and at least they don't ram the Lindy Superiority thing down my thoat.


....off now to lie in dark room and think of 1st moves and octopuses......

Scot
11th-December-2002, 02:11 PM
Originally posted by Gadget


(sorry;:sorry: I know the 'Lego' thing is a very 'boy-ish' analogy, but I always used to get a little Lego model in the stocking at the end of my bed for Christmas :D)

The Lego thing is fine its the the "borg" thing that worries me.....

Stubob
11th-December-2002, 02:24 PM
I started dancing modern jive about 2 years ago. The LeRoc venue I attended (Rosyth) closed, but was taken over by Scot and Ceroc Edinburgh. Having never been to a Ceroc venue I did not know what to expect, however I personally noticed very little difference in the moves or the music......I do have to say that the teacher is completely mad....! Rosyth is very different from any dance venue I have ever attended...!!!

I have also been learning WCS and Latin.....which I have been able to take back and add to my Ceroc. What I am doing more of in Ceroc is footwork....and am enjoying the dance more as a result of this.

Scot's point about people learning Ceroc, moving on to something else and then ripping the p**s out Ceroc is something I have encountered too. Ironically, the people I am thinking about do still attend Ceroc nights........strange...! There's nowt stranger than folk lad!

Stuart

Scot
11th-December-2002, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by Stubob
I started dancing modern jive about 2 years ago. The LeRoc venue I attended (Rosyth) closed, but was taken over by Scot and Ceroc Edinburgh. Having never been to a Ceroc venue I did not know what to expect, however I personally noticed very little difference in the moves or the music......I do have to say that the teacher is completely mad....! Rosyth is very different from any dance venue I have ever attended...!!!

Stuart

There wouldn't be since Robert who was your previous Teacher orginally went to Ceroc in Livingston spookly enough my Class.

Mad is such a strong word I would like to think that I am slightly more expressive in Rosyth. Lets face it because the class is so small and I know everybody personally I can get away with it a bit more than I can at other nights.

PS Quick correction Ceroc Edinburgh did not take on this night I did. It is way to small to be an offical Ceroc Night. If it was made a Ceroc Night I would have to pay to keep it running.

DavidB
11th-December-2002, 03:03 PM
I agree that the name doesn't really matter. Most people realise that when talking about the dance, Ceroc, Leroc, Modern Jive etc are all the same thing. If someone calls their own dancing Ceroc then I don't mind. I would only object if somebody insisted that I was doing Ceroc.


Originally posted by Scot
However it does have its own movesCeroc may have moves that it teaches, and no-one else does. But I would doubt if any of them are unique to Ceroc, or any other form of dance. I can't prove this - my argument is that there are only so many ways you can hold, and lead, a lady. There are only so many directions she can turn or move. There have been too many people dancing in the past for virtually every possibility not to have been done. (This argument also works for any other dance.)
However you can prove that there are moves unique to Ceroc if you can show or describe a move that is not done in any other dance...


and it does have its own unique style much replicated by many.This is more interesting - what is this 'Unique Ceroc Style'?

David

Scot
11th-December-2002, 03:38 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
However you can prove that there are moves unique to Ceroc if you can show or describe a move that is not done in any other dance...

This is more interesting - what is this 'Unique Ceroc Style'?


As you say the same is true for any other dance. However out of every dance comes originality I suspect that this is how dance evolves as it has done before our time. I doubt that there is nothing more original to be done. Hope not anyway.

As for Style I believe that Ceroc (Modern Jive lets not get into that argument again), by its non adherence to strict dance technique, allows far more individual interpretation and thus allows an individual, should they wish, to develop a style of dance that is unique them. This is possible within other Dances of course but it is often less obvious except amongst the more accomplished dancers.

So I guess where you are coming from is does Ceroc have Style, Is it a Style or do people that do it have style. If I had to pick one I would go for the third one V&L being at the top of the pile.

John S
11th-December-2002, 04:02 PM
I haven't got involved in this discussion so far as it seems to have more heat than light in it - what matters most (to most people) is that they enjoy the dance and the atmosphere, rather than the company politics or the semantics of what exactly is meant by "Ceroc" etc. It all smacks a little of political correctness.

In Scotland "Ceroc" is a useful shorthand, even if it's not wholly accurate, but as I travel about the UK a bit I do tend to speak of "Modern Jive" rather than the "company" name (eg in the North of England I would never describe the dance as "Blitz" , as rightly or wrongly I think of this as an organisation rather than a dance.)

But I do agree with Scot that the way in which Ceroc (and its derivative companies) teach the dance allows individuals to develop their own styles - I'm sure we could all pick out the distinctive styles of individuals in our clubs without seeing their faces, eg just by seeing them dance in silhouette. This makes judging/comparing abilities very difficult, but does allow everyone to progress along their chosen style-path at their own pace.

It also reminds me of a point I think DavidB (?) made a long time ago, about the ratio of Enjoyment: Effort in learning different dances. "Ceroc" provides a very high ratio, as one can dance 4 moves after just 1 lesson, other (more technically strict) dances demand much more Effort before the Enjoyment kicks in.

DavidB
11th-December-2002, 05:08 PM
Originally posted by John S
I haven't got involved in this discussion so far as it seems to have more heat than light in it This whole discussion was worth it for this statement. Thanks John


... a point I think DavidB (?) made a long time ago, about the ratio of Enjoyment: Effort in learning different dances. "Ceroc" provides a very high ratio, as one can dance 4 moves after just 1 lesson, other (more technically strict) dances demand much more Effort before the Enjoyment kicks in. I agree - I just wish it was me who said it.

David

John S
11th-December-2002, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by DavidB

I agree - I just wish it was me who said it.

David

Sorry, David - just thought it was the sort of profound statement you would have made!

I have now used my sole remaining brain cell to perform a word search, and it was actually Jiveaholic we have to thank for casting this particular pearl of wisdom before us ..... (I think I'll stop there)

TheTramp
11th-December-2002, 06:44 PM
I haven't got involved in this discussion so far as it seems to have more heat than light in itGreat quote. I think I'll be using this in the future. Do I need to pay copyright on it?? :rolleyes:

Steve

Floyd
11th-December-2002, 07:57 PM
Phew.....

Having just read through the last few pages I'd like to make it clear that in starting this whole thing I was certainly not 'having a go' at Ceroc. Far from it. My life changed overnight in April 97 when I discovered Ceroc. Ceroc taught me to jive and for that I'm grateful. Had it not been for Ceroc I doubt very much that I'd have discovered other forms of jive/swing based dance and my life would have been less enriched. If I ever come across anyone wanting to learn to jive I point them in the direction of Ceroc. I also object to superior attitudes in whatever dance genre they are found; thankfully this is not something that I find often. I mix and match styles with people from all different dance backgrounds - and that's what I find most people do.
My only gripe with Ceroc is that most of the music played is modern chart stuff which is not the most fun music for jiving to. I enjoy Scot's 'older music', as he called it, and wish he would play more of it. That's my opinion, of course, although many other people share it. As a business it makes sense for Ceroc to play what the punters want. I understand that - but it means that I have to look around for other events offering different music because Ceroc can no longer quench my dancing thirst... although I do still turn up at Ceroc. Incidentally, the moves that I use more than any others at any jive event are the moves that Ceroc taught me. I'm grateful for them and would always be the first to aknowledge where I learned them.



:cheers:

Basil Brush (Forum Plant)
11th-December-2002, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by Floyd
Had it not been for Ceroc I doubt very much that I'd have discovered other forms of jive/swing based dance and my life would have been less enriched.
Hear hear


Unsure about the alleged 'non adherence to strict dance technique allowing far more individual interpretation'. Swing (to which it's been compared to this thread) allows much much more individual interpretation than modern jive/Ceroc in my opinion.

Ceroc however offers the whole package: a class, a high enjoyment:effort ratio (ref. DavidB), a great social night, and an accessible ticket into the world of dancing.

Dance Demon
11th-December-2002, 09:22 PM
I take on board floyds point about modern music. I recently attended a Monday night in Marcos, and asked Brian the DJ if he would play a couple of tracks from an R'n' B disc I had taken along, which he duly did. Someone took exception to this, and asked the venue manager if this was a Ceroc night or a Rock'n'Roll night. He also played a few swing tunes and again was asked if this was a swing night. Personally I felt that the mix of music was very good, although the majority was still modern music. Having a mix of all types is a trait that Scot has down to a T , a point bourne out by the attendance on Thursday nights. I appreciate its a modern jive(here we go again ) night , but it is nice to have some swingier and jivier tunes as well.

Will
12th-December-2002, 01:12 AM
Originally posted by Gus


Thats hit a chord here too. I'm SICK TO THE BACK TEETH of Lindy hoppers who use the ...." oh when you're ready you can progress to Lindy".:reallymad :reallymad Sorry, but been there done that got the T-shirt and didn' like it! trained with Simon Selmon (lovely guy, great teacher), did Jumpin at the Woodside (did a Frankie Manning class ..... what a guy!!) ... still didn't get into it.

I do Ceroc because I like it more and it suits my style. I really don't aprrecaite being told that someones a better dancer than me just because they do Swing/Lindy!

Couldn't agree with you more Gus. I have much the same experiences and feel much the same way about it.

Right on! Preach it Brother :waycool:

Gus
12th-December-2002, 08:53 AM
Originally posted by Will

Couldn't agree with you more Gus. I have much the same experiences and feel much the same way about it.

Right on! Preach it Brother :waycool:
Going a bit off-thread here ... but

Have you noticed how the people who come out with the all knowing comments are rarely the ones who are actualy the ones who are really good. I've chatted with the likes of Simon S, Nigel, Rena .... the people who are respected for their superb dancing ... and never once have they tried the 'swing superiority' line .... they let their dancing talk for itself. However, go to your local Ceroc club where there is some munter who's done a few months of Lindy and they sem to think they are now a Lindy expert and allowed to look down on the other dancers doing 'just' Ceroc.

Anyway ... each to their own. I think (as has being mentioned earlier) that the best way for Ceroc is to absorb what is usefull from other styles and incorporate it into its own 'style' .... much as its has over the last 20 years. Spookily enough, a little like the Bruce Lee quote below....:wink:

Floyd
12th-December-2002, 09:27 AM
This thread is for disscusing the question of whether or not Ceroc is a the name of a dance or 'just' the name of an organisation/business.

It was not intended as a place for people to slag forms of dance other than the jive taught by Ceroc, or indeed a place for people to slag Ceroc. See earlier for my own praise of the organisation.

To hold the view that Ceroc is not the name of the dance taught by Ceroc does not have a requirement that one:

Actually participates in any other form of dance

Does not go to and enjoy Ceroc events

Has a superior attitude about a particular form of dance


Let's be clear about that and perhaps someone would like to start another thread if they want to discuss unrelated issues.



:cheers:

Gus
12th-December-2002, 10:11 AM
Originally posted by Floyd
This thread is for disscusing the question of whether or not Ceroc is a the name of a dance or 'just' the name of an organisation/business.

It was not intended as a place for people to slag forms of dance other than the jive taught by Ceroc, or indeed a place for people to slag Ceroc. See earlier for my own praise of the organisation.

Let's be clear about that and perhaps someone would like to start another thread if they want to discuss unrelated issues.

:cheers: Ahhem.... I think that you may be doing a slight disservice to the discussion that your original posting has prompted. I don't think that anyone really has 'slagged off' other dance styles.... in fact I think that a large degree of mutual respect has been stated ... I think what has been slagged off is the attitude of a minority of dancers.

Re the going off thread ... well, welcome to the Ceroc Scotland Forum:wink: The attraction of the Forum, and probably the reason for its huge success, is that contributors are free to wander off thread a little to incorporate parallel points. In the end the discusion usually wanders back to the original point ... well sometimes.

Gadget
12th-December-2002, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by Floyd
My only gripe with Ceroc is that most of the music played is modern chart stuff which is not the most fun music for jiving to.
...for you perhaps.
I think that the main problem is that most people actually define the dance they are doing by the music they are dancing to {or more accurately the 'feel' of the music they are dancing to}.
Since Ceroc is danced to almost every type of music, people have a hard time defining it. The music played at venues (and so danced to) will ultimately depend on the DJ and their experience. If they are a regular DJ, they will know the ÔfeelÕ of the most requested tracks and bias the night in that direction. :cool:
There is also the problem of the range of venues/night to dance: Down south, there are probably a multitude of venues offering salsa/meringue/ceroc/swing/jive; all with slightly different flavors of music Ð The attitude of the dancers is one of compartmentalization {assumptions from previous posts}; the mentality is that a style of dance should stay within itÕs own boundaries and itÕs own music: no dancing salsa to ÔpopÕ, no dancing ceroc to Ôbig bandÕ, no dancing swing to ÔbluesÕ É :sick:
If we were that picky, we wouldnÕt get to dance/enjoy ourselves so much. And thatÕs the whole point. Luckily we Scots have no objections to blends as well as single malts. :D

Getting back on topic Ð I think that ÒCerocÓ is the franchise and ÒcerocÓ is the dance.

{Ceroc as a franchise prides itÕs self on being accessible to/for all, therefore the music played at itÕs venues must be to suit a wide range of tastes and styles. There are several threads in ÔThe DJÕs BoothÕ discussing this.}

Phil Motley
12th-December-2002, 12:49 PM
In this lively debate on what we choose to call our style of dancing may I offer the following explanation for one possible difference between the name Jive and Modern Jive. I have for the past 12 years learnt Jive (together with the Waltz, Foxtrot, Quickstep, Tango, Rumba, and Samba with forays into Salsa, Lindy and Hip Hop) and the Jive footwork IS different from Ceroc, LeRoc, Blitz or other forms of 'Modern Jive'. The Jive has an extra step in it with a side to side chassis done on one beat before a back step. Yes this can be incorporated into Ceroc, LeRoc, Blitz, as I incorporate other forms of dance that I have learnt - but whereas this forms the basic footwork in the Jive - it is not in Modern Jive.

Lou
12th-December-2002, 01:15 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
Getting back on topic Ð I think that ÒCerocÓ is the franchise and ÒcerocÓ is the dance.
Errmmm... so if I danced with a Ceroccer at a Ceroc night, I'd be dancing ceroc, even though I've only ever had one Ceroc lesson in my entire life? And if that Ceroccer came with me to a LeRoc class or event, would he be dancing LeRoc, or ceroc, or what? :what:

TheTramp
12th-December-2002, 01:17 PM
Lou,

What about if you and one of your partners from Bristol who had never done a ceroc class, both went to the ceroc dance. Then what would you be dancing??

Steve

Lou
12th-December-2002, 01:30 PM
And what if... right... I went to my cousin's wedding and did double trouble with a guy from LeJive & Rachel here... whilst surrounded by a ring of Lindyhoppers & Swallerinas... *lol*:really:

Gadget
12th-December-2002, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by Lou
Errmmm... so if I danced with a Ceroccer at a Ceroc night, I'd be dancing ceroc, even though I've only ever had one Ceroc lesson in my entire life?
If you are doing the same moves as taught in Ceroc and you are following your partner's lead then I would say yes.

And if that Ceroccer came with me to a LeRoc class or event, would he be dancing LeRoc, or ceroc, or what? :what:
...please excuse my ignorance of LeRoc, but if you are doing the same moves as taught in LeRoc and following your partner's lead, then I would say you are both dancing LeRoc.

To be quite honest I don't think it matters what you call the dance you do, where the influence for the moves came from or what music you are dancing to - you are just dancing. Moving your body to the music and becoming an extention of your partner. Lost in sound and movement, not thinking, just dancing. :waycool:
Everyone dances differently and the most an organisation or 'style' can say is that they have contributed to your style.

Lou
12th-December-2002, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by Gadget

If you are doing the same moves as taught in Ceroc and you are following your partner's lead then I would say yes.

...please excuse my ignorance of LeRoc, but if you are doing the same moves as taught in LeRoc and following your partner's lead, then I would say you are both dancing LeRoc.


If the moves are the same, though? Which, in essence, they are.

That's why we need the more generic Modern/French Jive handle ... you can't just say the dance is "ceroc".

DavidB
12th-December-2002, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by Lou
... I went to my cousin's wedding and did double trouble with a guy from LeJive & Rachel here... whilst surrounded by a ring of Lindyhoppers & Swallerinas... You would be doing double CeLeRoc-style Jive in a Swallindy Jam Circle. I could be more specific, but that depends on your cousin's religion...

Franck
12th-December-2002, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
I could be more specific, but that depends on your cousin's religion...Are we still talking about Gus' trousers here :really: :devil:

Franck.

TheTramp
12th-December-2002, 03:33 PM
David

I hate to be pedantic (:rolleyes: )

But surely, it'd be LeCeroc style (since ceroc came first). :wink:

Oh, and if the were all wearing tight leotards, then you'd be able to be more specific!!

Steve

TheTramp
12th-December-2002, 03:35 PM
Great minds yet again Franck..... :D

Steve

DavidB
12th-December-2002, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Great minds yet again Franck.....Where???

TheTramp
12th-December-2002, 03:41 PM
Good point yet again David.

Maybe it should be 'Fools seldom differ'.

Steve

Gus
12th-December-2002, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by Lou


That's why we need the more generic Modern/French Jive handle ... you can't just say the dance is "ceroc".

Echoing earlier (and subsequent posts) .. WHY NOT?

Ceroc IS the original name for the style of dance as was introdcued to the UK. 'Modern Jive', so I'm led to believe, was a phrase invented far more recently by a group of instructors who wanted to compete against Ceroc ..... Ask the majority of the population what the dance is and they'll say CEROC ...... quad erat domunstratum (or something like that):wink:

What is this LeRoc type imitation dance anyway .... never heard of it in London :na: :wink:

Scot
12th-December-2002, 04:08 PM
I think this thread is done !

TheTramp
12th-December-2002, 04:14 PM
Actually, there was an attempt to start up a LeRoc franchise in London.

It was done by 2 middle aged women who really didn't have any idea about what they were doing.

They asked me to teach for them, and I turned down the 'opportunity'.

Needless to say, it didn't last for long. :rolleyes:

Steve

Gadget
12th-December-2002, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by Lou
If the moves are the same, though? Which, in essence, they are.

That's why we need the more generic Modern/French Jive handle ... you can't just say the dance is "ceroc".
Again I am pleading ignorance, but where did LeRoc originate ?
What is the difference (in moves, not methology) between LeRoc and Ceroc and WCSwing and Jive and Rock & Roll and Merengue and Salsa...? Never mind the music they are danced to, or the rhythm - but the actual moves themselves.

As far as I can see, they all have almost identical 'moves' and the only difference between them is footwork: If you do ceroc with wholey salsa footwork, then it's salsa. If you do ceroc with wholly WCSwing footwork, it's WCSwing...
IMHO, ceroc is defined precisley by not being defined - there are no constraints on footwork, no constraints on timing, no default 'reset' position and no constraints on music. So the question really is "is the absence of a distinct style definable as a style in it's self ?"

{Tramp: if ceroc came 1st, then shouldn't it be CeRoc ?}
{Edit}
Scott: Naa not done yet: there is nothing else on the forum worth arguing about ;)

Lou
12th-December-2002, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by Gus
What is this LeRoc type imitation dance anyway .... never heard of it in London :na: :wink:
*lol* T'is true it's mainly down South West, Wales, etc....

It's funny how CEROC doesn't manage to gain a foothold here, even the Bath, Swindon, etc classes have gone to Ginger Jive now. I'm not sure why it's the case, I'm sure. LeRoc classes in Bristol and Newport/Cardiff are incredibly popular, as are Salsa type classes, so it's not as if we don't dance...

So no one around these parts dances "ceroc". Sorry Mister - we don't have that strange newfangled thing round yer..... Must be something to do with you city folks! :wink:

TheTramp
12th-December-2002, 04:31 PM
I think this thread is done !I guess not....

Steve

Lou
12th-December-2002, 04:33 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Actually, there was an attempt to start up a LeRoc franchise in London.

What's one of them, Steve? I thought you only got franchises in CEROC? :yum: :wink: :na:

TheTramp
12th-December-2002, 04:36 PM
What's one of them, Steve? I thought you only got franchises in CEROC? Good question. Is it still a franchise, if you don't have to get permission (or pay) to join, but still use the name. If not, what would you call it then?

Steve

Lou
12th-December-2002, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Good question. Is it still a franchise, if you don't have to get permission (or pay) to join, but still use the name. If not, what would you call it then?

Actually - to be serious for a moment - this is what I think is the main difference between Ceroc & LeRoc. As far as I'm aware, LeRoc came about when some people wanted to break away from what they perceived as the restrictions imposed by the Ceroc organisation -i.e. having to pay for a Franchise, signing away rights to teach even friends, the control & monitoring from Ceroc HQ, etc... And so the independant spirit of LeRoc was born. LeRoc was the first of these Ceroc spin-offs, and isn't a particular dance in its own right. Then followed LeJive, Mo'Jive, etc.... It's all basically the same thing, as you know.

Anybody can set up a Modern/French Jive class & call it LeRoc (or any of the other non-trademarked names). Perhaps I'd call it a "genre", "style" or a "label", but definitely not a Franchise.

DavidB
12th-December-2002, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by Gus
'Modern Jive', so I'm led to believe, was a phrase invented far more recently by a group of instructors who wanted to compete against Ceroc
.....
What is this LeRoc type imitation dance anyway .... never heard of it in LondonFunny that - I used to go to Leroc classes at the Charles Peguy Centre in Leicester Square in 1986. Back then everyone called it French Jive - even those who went to Ceroc classes.

I don't know when the term 'Modern' Jive started. I first heard it in the mid-90s. I always assumed that 'French' Jive fell out of favour because it was no longer anything like what they did in France.


Originally posted by Gadget
What is the difference (in moves, not methology) between LeRoc and Ceroc and WCSwing and Jive and Rock & Roll
If you want a history of swing dance - go to http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/d5timlne.htm.

Ceroc and Leroc teach the same dance. I'll call it Modern Jive - I don't care what anyone else calls it!
Ballroom Jive is a formalised version of East Coast Swing. Rock'n'Roll is basically the same as East Coast Swing, as is 6-count Lindy.

There are 3 main difference between Modern Jive and other forms of swing:
- Modern Jive has no 'recovery' step where you do nothing. Eg in ECS you have a rock step, in Lindy you have a twist twist, and in WCS you have an anchor step.
- Modern Jive also emphasises the down beat - all other swing dances emphasise the up-beat.
- Finally Modern Jive has no standard length of moves. Other dances are predominantly made up of 6 or 8 count patterns.

The main difference between ECS and WCS is that WCS is done in a slot, whereas ECS is circular.

All dances allow improvisation, but is is far more frequent in WCS.

All dances allow just as much freedom to develop your own style.

All dances have the same opportunity for musical interpretation. However each dance suits different tempos - WCS for slower music, ECS for faster music, and Modern Jive in the middle.

And virtually all the moves you can do in one dance will work in another. (And anyone who has ever danced with me knows I mix up all the moves all the time.)

David

Gus
12th-December-2002, 05:26 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Actually, there was an attempt to start up a LeRoc franchise in London.
Well actualy ... there was a thriving LeRoc club opposite the ancient mecca of Ceroc the Central club.

For those of you too young to know the legend...well here it is...

Once upon a time in a place far, far away (i.e. London) there was a magical place (The Central club) where all the greatest dancers (both in terms of style and ego) came to play. They were taught by the greatest teachers in the land and lo it was found to be good. Then a dark evil descended (Property Developers) and the magical place was taken away and its like will never be seen again....but the legend lives on..

Sufficeth to say this was a place where Viktor, Mike Allard and other dance genuii (OK spelt wrong) taught on a regular basis. It was quite simply The Best ... with some attitides to match. It was there where I started to dance ... where these great teacher where just another teacher who's moves I couldn't do and my only comments on seeing Nigel and Nina dancing was ..."who's that odd chap with the silly hat":sick:

ANYWAY ... across the road was the YMCA and a few mates dragged me across there to do some similar dancing (later I found it to be LeRoc. Similar moves except that after the grand sum of 4 weeks of lessons I was being taught hip-hops and 1st move jumps .. SCARY!

I think the female teahcer was actualy the lass who made the LeRoc video ... remember she moved to the US shortly after ... nothing to do woth me dancing at her class I hope!

Sorry for digressing a bit ... well quite a lot really:sorry

DavidB
12th-December-2002, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by Gus
...after the grand sum of 4 weeks of lessons I was being taught hip-hops and 1st move jumps .. SCARY!So - Ceroc did pick up a few things from Leroc...

TheTramp
12th-December-2002, 06:39 PM
Uh huh. I've seen both of those moves taught by ceroc teachers in normal weekly classes. Have to say that if they're taught well (which I'm sure that in most cases they are), and the dangers of doing them on crowded dancefloors are emphasized, I don't see a reason why they shouldn't be. Neither of those are particularly dangerous moves - done in the right circumstances, and done properly.

Of course, you are going to have people doing them who have only been dancing 4 weeks, and are in their first intermediate class. But I'm not sure how you'd avoid that. Besides, I've seen people who've been dancing for a matter of weeks who are far better some of those who've been dancing for years!! :rolleyes: It's pretty scary in some of those cases...

Steve

Gadget
12th-December-2002, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
If you want a history of swing dance ~snip~

And so the oracle once again quenches the thirst for knowledge :wink:
Cheers :cheers:

Will
13th-December-2002, 12:38 AM
Originally posted by Gus
Going a bit off-thread here ... but

Have you noticed how the people who come out with the all knowing comments are rarely the ones who are actualy the ones who are really good. Gus, this is getting spooky now.

I've had the same experience. I particularly remember one night having a chat with this guy in a pub after a Ceroc night in Fulham, only to listen to him slag off Ceroc as a dance for beginners that you could only take so far, and that if you really want to get serious about dancing you had to take up Lindyhop. I ended up just having to ask the guy why he bothered to turn up to Ceroc nights at all if that was how he felt.

....and the thing was, he was a very ordinary dancer, both Cerocer and Lindyhop.

I see I'm going to have to PM you names to compare. Wouldn't be at all suprised if we are talking about one and the same.

Will :wink:

Will
13th-December-2002, 12:59 AM
Seems to still be a bit of confusion over this debate about whether or not Ceroc is the name of a dance.

To put it another way:-

When Ceroc was invented, if the people who invented it hadn't formed a company with the same name and patented it, you'd have probably never heard of phrases such as 'Modern Jive', 'French Jive', 'LeRoc', etc.... But they did, so you do.

Conversly, as I illuded to earlier in the thread, if the first people to do Salsa had started a company with the name and patented it, you'd have Hespanic Jive companies springing up everywhere.

The amusing Irony of all of this is that neither Ceroc (the Company), nor any of the breakaway competitors want what the dance that other companys do to be called Ceroc, but for entirely different reasons. Well I think that it is quite amusing anyway.

At the end of the day though, if you remove all immotive, political and business/financial factors from it all, you are left with a dance called Ceroc (all be it with an ever increasing reportoire of styles coming through).

DavidB
13th-December-2002, 03:37 AM
Originally posted by Will
I particularly remember one night having a chat with this guy in a pub after a Ceroc night in Fulham, only to listen to him slag off Ceroc as a dance for beginners that you could only take so far, and that if you really want to get serious about dancing you had to take up Lindyhop.As I keep saying - there is nothing in any swing-based dance that makes it a better dance than the others.
But...
the average Lindy dancer is probably better than the average jiver.

Several reasons:
- Lindy is a bit harder to learn, so the people that stick with it may be a bit keener.
- In Jive you have the dance, and the atmosphere. But with Lindy you get people who are really into the music and the fashion as well. Again it might make people a bit keener.
- Many people that learn Lindy already do other dances - particularly Jive. So you don't get as many absolute beginners
- Lindy teaches more technique than jive. This might put some people off, but it means your average lindy dancer probably knows more about the basics of dancing.
- Lindy is danced worldwide. Jive is only done in the UK, and Australia/NZ. It gives more input into the evolution of the dance.
- The very best Lindy dancers are better than the top jive dancers. That raises the overall standard.

I would recommend learning another dance to any experienced jiver who has the time. Not because they are better dances, but simply to learn new things. But you don't have to learn another dance to become a good dancer.

David

Will
13th-December-2002, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by DavidB

- The very best Lindy dancers are better than the top jive dancers. That raises the overall standard.

Whilst I agree with some of your other points, I have to disagree with this. I've been to a few Lindy events and seen some great dancers, but nobody that stands out as looking better than the top Cerocers (Modern Jivers). Indeed, in my opinion I'm more impressed by V&L than by say Simon Selmon (great dancer that he is), and I suspect if you took a non-dancer off the street and showed them both couples, they'd be more impressed with what V&L do too.

I guess that at the end of the day it does come down to personal taste.

TheTramp
13th-December-2002, 07:30 PM
Have to agree with Will (sorry David).

It does all come down to personal taste, and I would agree that the average standard is higher.

But when you get right up there, I don't necessarily think that the best Lindy dancers (and I've seen Ryan Francois and Julie Oram - although, not Frankie Manning) are any better than the best jivers - although, it is difficult to say that someone is purely a jiver. Once they get to that stage, most diversify in some way, so they are no longer purely doing jive (ie. N&N, V&L etc.)

Have to say though - and you'll like this. The best live performance I've ever seen, was by Deborah and Robert - the world WCS champions. I hope that someone gets them coming back to the UK again soon (hint, hint)

Steve

DavidB
13th-December-2002, 09:07 PM
Originally posted by Will
I guess that at the end of the day it does come down to personal taste. It definitely does. So I thought I'd explain what I look for in a good dancer (to watch, not dance with)

- Musical interpretation. That means everything - playing with the beat, hitting the breaks, restarting after a break, phrasing the dance, highlighting little things in the music, using the emotion of the song, using the lyrics, matching the 'size' of the dance to how the music builds up, matching your style to the music, matching moves to the music.

- Lead & Follow - I hate choreographed moves done in freestyle.

- Individual dancing ability, and making the most of what you can do.

- A well-balanced couple - Reacting to each other, but still with the man showing off the lady.

- Interpretation

- Invisible leads - I should be watching the lady, and wondering how the man got her to do what she does.

- Variation in moves - not necessarily complex moves, but just not doing the same move over and over again. (One complaint I have with a lot of Lindy couples is the number of identical whips they do.)

- Performing to the audience when they are putting on a show


What I don't like is

- Lifts and drops for the sake of it

- Feeling uncomfortable - either because a move looks painful, or because it looks indecent.

David

(PS Franck - time for another thread...)

Dreadful Scathe
15th-December-2002, 03:49 PM
i thought this summed up the history of jive rather well

http://www.jiveriot.com/history.asp

no one doubts that Ceroc has made jive dance more popular, but the 'base dance' through all forms of modern jive is the same - thats why i never considered Ceroc to be a dance until Gus mentioned it here - just a big and well organised company that does jive. And as the style of jive differs around Ceroc venues, Ceroc can't be said to have a style either. Its not the moves its the way you do them that is 'style'.

Thats my sum up :)

Happy Dancing

Gus
15th-December-2002, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
i thought this summed up the history of jive rather well

http://www.jiveriot.com/history.asp

no one doubts that Ceroc has made jive dance more popular, but the 'base dance' through all forms of modern jive is the same
Happy Dancing

As ODA I fell duty bound to forward the view that JiveRiot may be being 'economical' with the truth..... of course in no way motivated by the fact that they are a rival organisation to Ceroc. As casual observer may point out that the statement, "The French took the dance, simplified it, mixed it in with the traditional Latin dances to form the dance that we now know as Modern Jive. " ... is curious as it has been mentioned by numerous people that Modern Jive as we know it isn't actualy danced in France! Answers to that minor point eagerly awaited.:grin:

The other slightly curious phrase is, "The dance now known as Modern French Jive can be seen throughout the UK, under many different guises. But the base dance is always the same, no matter how it is marketed.". Alwys the Same??? ... they have GOT to be joking ... just dance at a few venues round the country and you will see that the standard of teaching/dancing, the interpretation of moves and the base music varies tremendously.

Nice try ... but try again :devil: :devil: :wink:

{ODA ... back with a mission ... defending Ceroc though???:sick: }

TheTramp
15th-December-2002, 06:37 PM
"But the base dance is always the same, no matter how it is marketed.".

Alwys the Same??? ... they have GOT to be joking ... just dance at a few venues round the country and you will see that the standard of teaching/dancing, the interpretation of moves and the base music varies tremendously.Wheeee. Do I get to play ODA for a moment.

Have to say though, I actually agree with both of you. The standard, interpretation and teaching does vary all over the country (And let me just say here, that ceroc does not have a monopoly on the good teaching, I've seen some very bad ceroc teachers, and also some very good teachers who aren't ceroc based (and also some truly awful teachers who aren't ceroc based too)). But what DS said still stands. The base dance is the same - they all teach first moves, and combs, and arm jives, and pretzels, and......

I think that's what he meant. Although, he could, and probably will, say that himself.

Steve

Dreadful Scathe
15th-December-2002, 09:52 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
But what DS said still stands. The base dance is the same - they all teach first moves, and combs, and arm jives, and pretzels, and......

I think that's what he meant. Although, he could, and probably will, say that himself.


Indeed. thats exactly what I meant, the base dance and basic moves are the same. Im certainly not anti-ceroc in any way nor is this topic, so Im not sure why Gus feels hes 'defending Ceroc'.


Originally posted by Gus
just dance at a few venues round the country and you will see that the standard of teaching/dancing, the interpretation of moves and the base music varies tremendously.

..exactly, thats true of every individual Jive class, and thats why Ceroc is not always interpreted as a dance or even a dance style. All you say above is true but the base dance is still the same, and I notice you didnt try to deny that!! 'base music' differences is hardly the same thing
:D


Originally posted by Gus
is curious as it has been mentioned by numerous people that Modern Jive as we know it isn't actualy danced in France! Answers to that minor point eagerly awaited

It is fairly minor - every dance has its history and regional and country evolution will be different for them all. Ceroc classes within the UK themselves vary greatly in style as do other jive companies. And didnt someone mention the big difference between UK ceroc and NZ and OZ ceroc ? Thats evolution that is, who knows what the future will bring for jive in any country.

Im living up to my name with these Dreadfully Scathing remarks :)

Gus
15th-December-2002, 11:38 PM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
Im living up to my name with these Dreadfully Scathing remarks :) Touche young sir, well met ..... still think you're wrong though:na:

Dreadful Scathe
15th-December-2002, 11:51 PM
:D

I'll agree to disagree that you've won - if thats ok :confused:

next topic:

Salsa is a nacho topping, not a dance :)

Will
16th-December-2002, 01:23 AM
Originally posted by Gus

"The French took the dance, simplified it, mixed it in with the traditional Latin dances to form the dance that we now know as Modern Jive. " ... is curious as it has been mentioned by numerous people that Modern Jive as we know it isn't actualy danced in France! Answers to that minor point eagerly awaited.:grin:

Another quality post from Gus, but I thought it only fair to the Dreadful Scathe to point out that he is technically right in in the Jive Riot quote about the French in that Ceroc's founder inventor is indeed French, so from that point the abocve quote is correct. Whether he represents a whole nation though is stretching things a bit is true, but you'd expect a little "Economy" from a rival. :wink:

Gus
16th-December-2002, 10:09 AM
Originally posted by Will
but I thought it only fair to the Dreadful Scathe to point out that he is technically right in in the Jive Riot quote about the French in that Ceroc's founder inventor is indeed French, Aha ... but at what point was it invented?? Was it by the French for adapting it, the Yanks for introducing it, the original 1920's yanks for developing Lindy Hop???? The interesting thing about a dance that has evolved/developed is that I think it is difficult to put a mark in the sand and say THAT is the point where the dance was invented. Similalrly, I've recently had illustrated at there is not JUST Salsa ... there appears to be 3 different styles which have different footwork ..... would that be then a similar parrallel to Swing having ECS, WCS and Modern Jive???

OK ... bored now ... we need to question things that REALLY matter, i,e,... "what percentage of Kylie's body parts are 'natural' and untouched by implants, surgeons knife or other medical tampering?":what:

TheTramp
17th-December-2002, 03:07 PM
Sorry to continue this. But I found this on an official ceroc website....


The American G.I.s took Jive to France in the fifties and in the early eighties James Cronin, our founder, brought it to our shores, adapted it and called it CEROC (from C'est le roc... its Rock!)
~snip
Along the way other influences have made CEROC a versatile and popular modern partner danceJust thought that it was interesting - especially since it's on a ceroc site.

Steve

Dreadful Scathe
17th-December-2002, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Just thought that it was interesting - especially since it's on a ceroc site.Hmm 'other influences' no less. So it has been adapted and continues to be adapted - no less than what i said before. At least they admit it :).

Of course Gus has officially changed the topic to Kylie so he cant reply - he's barred from this thread :)

Gus
18th-December-2002, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
Of course Gus has officially changed the topic to Kylie so he cant reply - he's barred from this thread :) you wouldn't like to put money on tht would you?:wink:

I would say that it also backs up what I said . James adapted it ... possibly quite radically ... and the 'other influences' refers to the 'borrowing' of moves from Tango, Hip Hop, Lindy etc.....

Try again Big Boy:na:

DavidB
19th-December-2002, 02:25 PM
Here's an interesting post I found on the Leroc Bristol (http://www.leroc.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/index.htm) website. I can't find the original website it refers to.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
"Here is a post made by Chritine Keeble on another website that explains the early days of LeRoc / Ceroc...

If we put the debate into a historical perspective I can demonstrate that there is no essential difference between le roc and Ceroc other than ownership of companies and trademarks. I feel qualified to make this claim since I was a member of the original Ceroc cabaret team founded 1982. This was when Ceroc was just a club and not a franchise operation. At the same time as performing cabaret with Ceroc, I co-founded the original Le Roc club, Leicester Square (a non profit organisation run by a committee of 20). Both the Le Roc club and the Ceroc club cabarets were trained and choreographed by the same dancer, Michel Ange Lau. Both organisations made it their goal to spread the dance far and wide and both clubs taught simultaneously out of the Centre Charles Peguy, Leicester Square. I was not the only dancer who danced with both organisations. Sylvia Coleman started off as a member of the Le Roc club cabaret team. She then went on to teach in a disco off the Gloucester Road and finally joined forces with James Cronin to develop Ceroc as a Limited Company. When things started getting more commercial I was concerned that this was denying access to the dance for anyone living outside the London area. This is why I produced the How To Jive video (later relaunched as the How To Jive - le roc French jive video). The video enabled dance teachers outside the London area to gain access to the dance. About a year later (1991) James Cronin and Sylvia Coleman decided to start franchising Ceroc and this dramatically increased the reach of the dance across the country. Their first franchisee, Rob Austin broke away to set up another franchise group called Le Jive and this spread the dance even further. Another major force in spreading the dance was the work of Michel Gay in Bristol. In the early 1980's Michel Gay came to classes at the Centre Charles Peguy. His move to Bristol was a great loss for the girls at Leicester Square but our loss was Bristol's gain and Bristol now probably has the greatest concentration of superb dancers in the country. Michel Gay originally called his classes Ceroc - but when the Ceroc club became a limited company, and had to guard its trademark, he changed the name to Le Roc Bristol. Le Roc is the generic name and free for everybody to use while Ceroc is a made up, trademarked name and is only available to franchisees. Remember, Ceroc is an abbreviation for "C'est le roc". The style and quality of teaching does vary from one teacher to another and no one can generalise on this point. As a franchise operation Ceroc is responsible for its own reputation and would be unwise to employ an ineffectual teacher. Le roc is a name free for anyone to use and as such anyone can set up shop. However, the Le Roc French Jive Federation was formed to maintain and improve teaching standards and has been hugely successful in this goal (raising the level of dance both among members and non members). No one can join the Federation without passing an exam and the Federation sets high standards. Members meet regularly to exchange knowledge and expertise. This is why Le Roc teachers tend to have the reputation for being high quality teachers (but it is worth checking whether they are Federation members). Now I live in Paris where I do not need to worry about whether I am dancing with a Cerocer or a Le Rocer. If I were to ask a Frenchman which of those he was - well I would just receive a bemused shrug and be whisked onto the dance floor - heavenly bliss!!! Anyway happy modern jiving!!!!"

-------------------------------------------------------------------

David

Gus
19th-December-2002, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
Here's an interesting post I found on the Leroc Bristol (http://www.leroc.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/index.htm) website. I can't find the original website it refers to.

Both the Le Roc club and the Ceroc club cabarets were trained and choreographed by the same dancer, Michel Ange Lau.

-------------------------------------------------------------------

David

Interesting. In Michel's book he describes how a young James Cronin came to him with the original idea for expansion. I've heard from a third party that this was not how James remembers it. Has anyone got the Official Ceroc version of events, or would Ceroc agree with everything said by Christine?:devil:

Dreadful Scathe
19th-December-2002, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by Gus


Interesting. In Michel's book he describes how a young James Cronin came to him with the original idea for expansion. I've heard from a third party that this was not how James remembers it. Has anyone got the Official Ceroc version of events, or would Ceroc agree with everything said by Christine?:devil:

Aha. An account from someone who was there backs up my argument. Ceroc IS an organisation not a dance or a style :).
Gus's argument would only ever stand up if the founders of Ceroc Ltd were the only people to be involved in creating the original style of dance - but if there were more people involved in its beginnings that taught it too, then ceroc and le roc are both equally offshoots of that original style and neither can claim to be anything other than Modern Jive. :)

Kylie looks young for her age doesnt she ? :)

Gus
19th-December-2002, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
Aha. An account from someone who was there backs up my argument. Ceroc IS an organisation not a dance or a style Aha yourself ... your argument only stands up if what Michel says is TRUE .... and is it?:confused:
:Kylie looks young for her age doesnt she ? :)What age is she supposed to be .... anyway shes not human ... she's an elf ... look at that strangely squashed face ... the elongated jaw, wierd cheek bones and pointy ears are a dead giveaway......

Lou
19th-December-2002, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
"Le Roc is the generic name and free for everybody to use while Ceroc is a made up, trademarked name and is only available to franchisees. Remember, Ceroc is an abbreviation for "C'est le roc".
Hmmm... well.... does that mean that you all dance Le Roc? :wink: :devil: :what:

TheTramp
19th-December-2002, 04:56 PM
Aha yourself ... your argument only stands up if what Michel says is TRUE .... and is it?Well, unless you get all the people who were around at the time together, and get them to put out a definitive answer, I don't think anyone will ever know (or care about?) the truth.

I repeat (and enlarge upon) the arguement that I made several pages ago. Suppose ceroc made some disasterous decisions, and had to sell up the business, and someone other than a present franchisee (lets say Katy from Rebel Roc bought out the Cronins). She made the decision to completely change the name, country-wide to bring it all together under her own company. Even if any of the old franchisees decided at this point to split away, they would still have to come up with their own name, since Katy is holding the rights to the name 'ceroc', and hence, the name vanishes.

How long do you think it would take, in the above example, before very few people (even those who frequent the classes now) stopped using the word 'ceroc' to describe the dance. I doubt it would take very long at all. People would still be doing exactly the same dance under a different name though.

Hence, I (humbly) submit again, that while James Cronin undoubtably did his part in making the classes what they are today, ceroc is still an organisation, and not the style.

Steve

Gus
19th-December-2002, 04:57 PM
Originally posted by Lou
Hmmm... well.... does that mean that you all dance Le Roc? :wink: :devil: :what: Welll ,,, I would argue yes! I've always believed that LeRoc was the generic name ... Modern Jive was a recently created term.

Somehow don't think that Ceroc HQ would see it like that though.
Now as to whether the LeRoc Association teachers teach authentic LeRoc could be a whole different argument....

:devil:

TheTramp
19th-December-2002, 04:58 PM
The above arguement obviously applies to all the other organisations (in whatever form) that use their own name to describe the dance.

If all the LeRoc clubs were to stop using that name, then LeRoc would obviously soon disappear as well...

Steve

Lou
19th-December-2002, 05:20 PM
Originally posted by Gus
Now as to whether the LeRoc Association teachers teach authentic LeRoc could be a whole different argument....
Association or the Federation? If John Eastman were here he'd be arguing that yes, the Federation do teach authentic LeRoc. They have teaching standards & awards, etc... But it's far easier to say something is authentic CEROC, as there's the big bumper book of moves, scripts, rules, whatever - so it's far more rigid.
I was up at Elmgrove last night & whilst the teachers there aren't members of the Federation, the class is "approved" and they claim to teach "Pure LeRoc". I also regularly attend classes taught by Sherif Uthman, who is a fantastic teacher, but he's not "approved". (Now part of this I suspect is Bristol politics). Sherif teaches the same moves as Elmgrove.

I've started to whitter. Sorry. To sum up. Yes the Federation do teach authentic LeRoc. But so do other LeRoc teachers not in the Federation.

Ooops. Forgot to say - don't ask me to define what "authentic LeRoc" actually is, though!

Lou
19th-December-2002, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
If all the LeRoc clubs were to stop using that name, then LeRoc would obviously soon disappear as well...

True. And we'd still be arguing about a generic name! :wink: I guess it helps that it was an earlier name than the others...

Graham
19th-December-2002, 05:30 PM
Since we can't agree on the one true name, how about a new one: European Swing?

TheTramp
19th-December-2002, 05:40 PM
I was up at Elmgrove last night & whilst the teachers there aren't members of the Federation, the class is "approved" and they claim to teach "Pure LeRoc". That was Pure LeRoc last night???? Okie, I take it all back, Ceroc and LeRoc are really two different things!! :D

Steve

Lou
19th-December-2002, 05:51 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
That was Pure LeRoc last night???? Okie, I take it all back, Ceroc and LeRoc are really two different things!! :D
*lol* I think last night was a one off. I wish I'd got there in time for the class! But I did enjoy my dance with "Derricka" later in the evening.:nice:

TheTramp
19th-December-2002, 05:54 PM
I wish you'd got there in time for the class too. Instead of me :D

Although, I think I actually frightened most of the women who were leading me in the class, by actually being able to spin....!!

Steve

Lou
19th-December-2002, 05:56 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Although, I think I actually frightened most of the women who were leading me in the class, by actually being able to spin....!!
You frightened me with your spins enough in freestyle, matey!

TheTramp
19th-December-2002, 05:57 PM
Ooops.

Sorry!

:rolleyes:

Steve

Franck
19th-December-2002, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by Gus
Has anyone got the Official Ceroc version of events, or would Ceroc agree with everything said by Christine?:devil: The history I have, directly from Ceroc HQ and available on a few websites, is thus:

1980: James Cronin launches the first ever Ceroc night in London. The opening night attracts 30 people and within 6 months it's attracting 700 people a month.

1982: A team of Cerocers dance on the BBC 1 program 'Nationwide' _

1983: Ceroc moves to Pineapple Dance Studios where its taught four time a week. _

1984: The first Ceroc Charity Ball attracts 1700 dancers.

1986: Sylvia Coleman opens a weekly Ceroc night in a Central London nightclub.

1987: James and Sylvia form a business partnership._

Dance classes are combined with freestyle sessions to create the 'Ceroc formula'. _

1990: The first National Event takes place. This is in the form of a Marathon, run for charity.

1991: Ceroc Enterprises Limited is founded to manage and coordinate the growth of Ceroc.

The first Teacher Training Course takes place._

The first Ceroc Franchise opens in Norwich.

1992: The CTA (Ceroc Teachers Association) is created to ensure continuity in the standard of teaching. _

Added by Franck.
Ceroc Scotland is launched in Glasgow :wink:

1994: Taxi Dancers are introduced.

I wasn't there at the beginning, so I can't confirm either version. I don't particulary care either, as others have said, both dances are very similar and, in my view, the only differences are in the training and standards across the UK and the quality of the nights.

I would also like to repeat what John S said, and hope we can get more light and less heat. Leroc and Ceroc are both generally very good, and as long as more people are learning to dance as a result, it does not matter who came up with a name / concept first.

Franck. :cheers:

Dance Demon
19th-December-2002, 08:06 PM
Hear hear Franck. The more people that get introduced to jive whatever name you want to call it the better. I first learned to jive at a Leroc night but also started attending ceroc nights fairly soon after. I have since gone to try other jive related dance styles, all of which I enjoy, but I still attend Ceroc nights regularly, and still enjoy them. Variety is the spice of life, and it is nice to be able to dance different styles to different types of music. Life would be so much nicer without unneccessary rivalry.:devil: :devil: :cheers:

Gus
19th-December-2002, 09:29 PM
Originally posted by Dance Demon
. Life would be so much nicer without unneccessary rivalry.:devil: :devil: :cheers: Is there any bitter rivalry?? I know of a few areas of the country where there have been a few 'shoot-outs' between Ceroc Clubs and 'others' but my feeling was that over the last 12 months these have been few and far between.

When I first took on Ceroc Nantwich we had a fairly adversarial relationship with Blitz .... now the clubs work very much in harmony.

HOWEVER, there is an argument that says if there are rival clubs competing then the standard of the offerings gets better as the clubs try to win business ... as you would expect in any 'free-market' economy..... so a lack of competition may not alwys be a good thing.

Dance Demon
20th-December-2002, 01:26 AM
So lack of competitionis not always a good thing

Competition can also be different from rivalry. No one has a problem with friendly competition , but hostile rivalry is a different kettle of fish. Re. the quality of dance nights improving if there is competition, surely the paying punter is entitled to good quality all the time and not just because someone else has started a similar night. :devil: :devil: :na:

Gus
20th-December-2002, 12:01 PM
Originally posted by Dance Demon


Competition can also be different from rivalry. No one has a problem with friendly competition , but hostile rivalry is a different kettle of fish. Re. the quality of dance nights improving if there is competition, surely the paying punter is entitled to good quality all the time and not just because someone else has started a similar night. :devil: :devil: :na:

To this I would answer GPO to BT ..... whilst UK telecoms had only a single provider (GPO) an appaling phone system was accepted ... once competition entered the market, well things ain't perfect, but look at the improvement of the service over the last 15 years or so. Do you think Microsoft would subject us to such shoddy bug-ridden software if they had real competition.

There are a number of areas round the country where, becuase the franchise doesn't have to worry about the punters going anywhere else, they don't have to try too hard and it shows! I think these are the exception rather than the rule ... I hope.

Re the rivalry, totally agree. I remember hearing the tales of a few years back where rival groups would target the opponents car parks with flyers or even sneek into the venues to hand out flyers ..... not exactly cricket.

The modern day equivalent is if someone starts up a club in your patch just open up a venue on the same night and cut prices to strangle the club at birth .... now is that good for the punters or not?

Stubob
20th-December-2002, 12:49 PM
I heard a story about a certain LeRoc teacher in Glasgow posting flyers on the cars of people attending a Ceroc night. The story goes that this individual was 'chased', and was close to getting a little more than that......:devil:

Or another LeRoc teacher who banned a dancer from his venues' for talking about another organisation....:tears:

Rivalry is healthy providing that it is not destructive and dancers are not discouraged or penalised for attending other dance venues or styles. Dancers can and will choose where to dance and the venue numbers will reflect what is popular and what is not.

Stuart

Scot
20th-December-2002, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by Stubob
I heard a story about a certain LeRoc teacher in Glasgow posting flyers on the cars of people attending a Ceroc night. The story goes that this individual was 'chased', and was close to getting a little more than that......:devil:

Or another LeRoc teacher who banned a dancer from his venues' for talking about another organisation....:tears:

Stuart

Not that keen on seeing this type of stuff. However just to clarify things: I did the DJ for the Glasgow night that you refer to and the person posting the flyers was not chased or anything like it.

As regard the Leroc Teacher banning a Dancer for discussing Ceroc at his venue I have not seen this letter but I have seen membership correspondence from this Leroc Teacher asking members not to discuss any other forms of dance at his night. His choice, his conditions. He has that right, whether it is complied with is another matter.

However in defence of this teacher, who was one of my students oops does that mean he teaches Ceroc rather than Leroc. He is quite a nice guy and he has always sought to develop his own business without canvassing, ÒdirectlyÓ, existing Ceroc customers. Possibly he is just a little sensitive to losing his own customers and I am not sure I can blame him for that. Let me explain

Where a person departs Ceroc and in all earnest sets up a dance class generating his own customers from busking, advertising etc. I think good on them. However conversely when a person sets up on the back of an existing class or classes and whoÕs only form of advertising consists of directly approaching existing Ceroc dancers then I find that to be somewhat unsavoury. In essence it is simply capitalising on somebody elseÕs efforts. In other walks of life it might be called freeloading.

I am a Ceroc Teacher so I am maybe considered to be somewhat biased. However I would ask anyone a hypothetical question. If you ran your own business say a very successful retail shop and people stood at the front of your shop and handed out advertising material for the shop down the road would you be happy? Worse if the shop then moved right next door to you and the staff then came into your shop passing out advertising material would you be happy. Possibly not ? You might even ask them to stop passing out leaflets in your shop. Not unreasonable, However in the Dance world it is viewed as being draconian. Funny old world ainÕt it

As any teacher will tell you it is hard work to build a night and it is a bit soul destroying when others capitalise on your efforts.

The aforemenationed Leroc Teacher has not had to live with any of the aforemeantioned, but he is clearly worried about losing his customers and you cannot blame him for that even though his methods are a bit OTT.

Gus
20th-December-2002, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by Scot
....I would ask anyone a hypothetical question. If you ran your own business say a very successful retail shop and people stood at the front of your shop and handed out advertising material for the shop down the road would you be happy? ..... Good point well made. When I orginaly set up my clubs in Stoke and Congleton I spent a small fortune (over #1000) in advertising and marketing costs ... and lets be clear .... that was straight out of my own pocket. Imagine my 'joy' when two of the local cowboys came down to the venues specificaly to hand out flyers and canvass for their clubs. As you can picture, I was not too happy and informed both said gentlemen that this wasn't too nice and asked them to desist.

Of course they came back and tried again ... this time I really REALLY wanted to take them outside and express things more forcefully ... (OK ... I'd lost the plot this time) ... fortuntately for the two gentlemen, my crew interveened.

Its very hard to get clubs established and it never ceases to amaze me that poeple seem to then think that they can use this market for their own purposes for free! How can that be right?

Dreadful Scathe
4th-January-2003, 10:59 PM
Forgot all about this thread but thought Id say a few things after reading it again.
Originally posted by Scot
I am a Ceroc Teacher so I am maybe considered to be somewhat biased. However I would ask anyone a hypothetical question. If you ran your own business say a very successful retail shop and people stood at the front of your shop and handed out advertising material for the shop down the road would you be happy? Worse if the shop then moved right next door to you and the staff then came into your shop passing out advertising material would you be happy. Possibly not ? You might even ask them to stop passing out leaflets in your shop. Not unreasonable, However in the Dance world it is viewed as being draconian. Funny old world ainÕt it Your analogy with the shops is not a good one. Presumably the shops would be open 9 to 5 and selling the same goods
.... with jive dance nights even where they do clash on the same night, they are always going to be supplying a different 'product' in the form of the teacher and his/her ability, the moves they teach, the dance floor, the bar, the quality of clientelle etc. Venues taking a heavy handed attitude end up losing some custom by creating a bad atmosphere, but most dancers have no interest in politics and will go to where they can have the best dance and the most fun. So at the end of the day, somewhere well organised like a Ceroc venue will always get the people in the door and will likely 'win' against a dance event on the same night regardless of flyers that may be handed out. If other events do not compete for the same night then i dont see what the problem is in having flyers handed out anyway, I would say common courtesy would require the advertiser to request leaving flyers but if they wish to stand outside and pass them out, good luck to them, we are all mature adults able to make up our own minds after all :). This is exactly the way advertising has worked for years - once you express an interest in a particular 'product' advertisers will obviously target you with similar products knowing you are more likely to be interested - even more so with dance as it is something physical - at least if you buy a book it may not be for you and may be a bad guide of your reading habits, but by going to a dance night its a little more clear cut. Advertising is only ever a 'foot in the door' sales technique anyway, once you get a bit of interest you need to back it up - and with a close knit community like the dance one is, a bad reputation will follow you for ever. In fact I dont think such advertising is as a big deal as is sometimes made out. What it comes down to then, is providing a good product - if you do you'll get the people time and again. e.g. Look at how much Coca Cola spend on Advertising compared to Barrs yet Scotland is apparantly the only country in the world where Coca Cola is not the most popular soft drink it loses out to the better quality 'underdog' that is IRN BRU :)

TheTramp
5th-January-2003, 02:43 AM
IRN BRU???

What's that?

Steve

Basil Brush (Forum Plant)
5th-January-2003, 06:02 PM
Why is it that Ceroc are the only organisation who don't promote other dance stuff, whereas Leroc, Le Jive and most of the others don't have a problem with it (as far as I have seen- although I may be wrong)?
:confused:

The Swing scene seem to promote everything else at all their dance nights and classes.... and they are all running businesses in some form or other. And on the modern jive front, Beach Boogie for eg. had hundreds of fliers displayed for various events all over the UK.

As a regular dancer at everything :D (sad I know) in Glasgow and Edinburgh I think it's a shame that the politics up here are becoming like the South.

FYI Irn Bru is made in Scotland.... from girders....

Gus
5th-January-2003, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by Basil Brush
Why is it that Ceroc are the only organisation who don't promote other dance stuff, whereas Leroc, Le Jive and most of the others don't have a problem with it (as far as I have seen- although I may be wrong)?
:confused: Few points;

a) Ceroc HQ rules dictate that Ceroc franchisees MUST not advertise non-Ceroc events (or at least than used to be the case)

b) Some Ceroc franchisees ignore that rule

c) Given that in some cases its a competitive business, why would you want to compete a competitor?

d) LeRoc and LeJive clubs have similar policies at a local level ... depends on the franchisee ... and its often the cowboy's who are the worst offenders.....

In the North West we have the John Sweeney listing, a complete listing of all events in the North West .... but only a minority of clubs have it out at their venues as it promotes competitors nights.

Will
6th-January-2003, 12:47 AM
Because of Ceroc's size (it is the biggest dance company of any style in the country), and that it can be done in virtually any part of the country, almost any other event will be a competitor of some Ceroc event somewhere. This situation is unique to Ceroc because of its size. (Personally, I think that seeing Salsa as competitor is perhaps a bit much, but I can see the point of view.)

Other than that, many of the alternative un-licenced vendors of ceroc started at Ceroc or even as a ceroc franchise and then broke away. It seems crazy to think anyone would expect them to then promote them. :confused:

Gus
6th-January-2003, 01:00 AM
Originally posted by Will
Because of Ceroc's size (it is the biggest dance company of any style in the country), and that it can be done in virtually any part of the country, almost any other event will be a competitor of some Ceroc event somewhereUrr ...actually there are large areas of the UK with either no or a very small Ceroc presence. The North West is dominated by Blitz, there is no Ceroc in Wales, S West is Le Roc dominated (well south of Gloucester), South Coast is MoJive and Leroc etc etc.

Methinks LeRoc may be somewhat miffed to be described as a 'Ceroc breakaway':wink:

Will
6th-January-2003, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by Gus
Methinks LeRoc may be somewhat miffed to be described as a 'Ceroc breakaway':wink: I think they would be too, which is why I said "Many" as opposed to "all".

Changing the subject completely, what happened to the Ceroc franchise in Manchester??? :devil:

Gus
6th-January-2003, 01:16 AM
Originally posted by Will

Changing the subject completely, what happened to the Ceroc franchise in Manchester??? :devil:

Don't think there has ever been one!

The Old 'Ceroc North' had clubs in Bowden (N Cheshire), Chester, Sheffield Stockport and Leeds (I think ... don't quote me on this) .... it broke away in 98/99 (??)[...same time as MoJive] and became Blitz ... Stockport has closed but now has increased nights and has openned clubs in Loughborough, Darlington and soon in Middlewich.

The only Ceroc presence up here is Ceroc Nantwich

Why the interest Manchester ... thinking of escaping the slums of London?:wink:

Will
6th-January-2003, 01:31 AM
Originally posted by Gus


Don't think there has ever been one!

The Old 'Ceroc North' had clubs in Bowden (N Cheshire), Chester, Sheffield Stockport and Leeds (I think ... don't quote me on this) .... it broke away in 98/99 (??)[...same time as MoJive] and became Blitz ... Stockport has closed but now has increased nights and has openned clubs in Loughborough, Darlington and soon in Middlewich.

Funily enough, that was my point.

However, you do have my apologies for Encapsulating the whole of the North-West as "Manchester". I must have been living in the big City to long as I all too often refer to the entire South-East as London.


Why the interest Manchester ... thinking of escaping the slums of London?:wink:

I mustn't forget my roots. I was born there after all. Manchester is definately due a pilgrimage from me once City move into the new stadium. :nice:

Dr. Feelgood
7th-January-2003, 01:13 AM
Originally posted by Gus
Few points;


d) LeRoc and LeJive clubs have similar policies at a local level ... depends on the franchisee ... and its often the cowboy's who are the worst offenders.....



What is a 'cowboy' in this context?

:cheers:

TheTramp
7th-January-2003, 01:16 AM
It's the people with the hats and guns, who say things like 'Get off your horse, and drink your milk!!'.

:rolleyes:

Steve

Gus
7th-January-2003, 10:52 AM
Originally posted by Dr. Feelgood
What is a 'cowboy' in this context?

:cheers: Aha ... see how the phrase could be misinterpreted ....

The Cowboy bit did NOT refer to LeROC. In the North West (and possibly elsewhere) we had a situation with non-trained instructors (usually failed taxi dancers) setting up clubs and marketing these by handing out flyers either outside or inside established clubs .... a clear breach of accepted etiquette.

Franck
7th-January-2003, 11:39 AM
Originally posted by Basil Brush
Why is it that Ceroc are the only organisation who don't promote other dance stuff, whereas Leroc, Le Jive and most of the others don't have a problem with it (as far as I have seen- although I may be wrong)?
:confused: I take issue with the above as I don't think that is true. The best example I can think of is this Forum, where everyone can promote their own night / event. Comparing to other organizations' websites, where Ceroc tends to be 'deliberately ommitted', though indeed every other dance class is mentioned :wink:

On the nights, we do have a policy not to have leaflets or to promote other events, but mostly because we usually get swamped with requests!
Over and above that, I have no problem in promoting other dance classes (be it Salsa, Lindy, Jive etc...) and often do, my only reservation is that the classes have to be good. There are a lot of 'bad' dance classes out there, and I would let Cerocers down by advertising them.

I have no issue with competition, and typically find that it can benefit my business. The only issue I have is when a new class is open on the same night as an existing one and ostensibly offering the same 'kind' of dance, the you only end up splitting / diluting both nights and end up with 2 poor nights.

Franck.

Siobhan (Forum Plant)
7th-January-2003, 12:15 PM
I have been at ceroc for 6 months and the quality of the night has been top class, compared to a similar organisation in Glasgow. I also have learnt about other dancing opportunitise but thankfully have not been aware of this rivalry since moving up here!

Dr. Feelgood
7th-January-2003, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by Franck
I take issue with the above as I don't think that is true. The best example I can think of is this Forum, where everyone can promote their own night / event. Comparing to other organizations' websites, where Ceroc tends to be 'deliberately ommitted', though indeed every other dance class is mentioned :wink: Franck is to be applauded for letting anyone promote other events on his site. :cheers:
By the way, you'll find Ceroc links on www.boogienights.net ...
Originally posted by Franck
I have no issue with competition, and typically find that it can benefit my business. The only issue I have is when a new class is open on the same night as an existing one and ostensibly offering the same 'kind' of dance, the you only end up splitting / diluting both nights and end up with 2 poor nights.
[/B]Absolutely - it's a pity that your East coast colleagues did just this very thing a year ago!

I've just made the point about competition in another thread - the more good dance events there are the better. More dancers appear on the dancing scene and most tend to go to as many different events as they can rather than just one. Everyone's a winner...

:cheers:

Dreadful Scathe
7th-January-2003, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by Basil Brush
Why is it that Ceroc are the only organisation who don't promote other dance stuff, whereas Leroc, Le Jive and most of the others don't have a problem with it (as far as I have seen- although I may be wrong)?


That is most certainly not true - as someone else pointed out and Scot confirmed, there are some teachers of Jive who won't even hear the word 'Ceroc' mentioned in their class. There is of course a big difference between 'not promoting' and 'actively bad-mouthing'. I just think the promotion issue is generally not a big deal - gossip and malicious rumours about competing venues is liked by no one and thankfully quite rare (and dont ask 'what gossip?' i dont have any :) )

Siobhan (Forum Plant)
8th-January-2003, 12:06 PM
As long as we are all enjoying dancing- who cares? People will always go to whatever they want to as somebody already has said. Lots of people want to move on from ceroc when they become good so are glad to find out about other styles and classes by others. I think it is brilliant that there are so many things to choose from, although it is annoying when there's a clash eg Sat 18th but the Edinburgh night sounds best for me, (Aberdeen is too far away, adn I have just booked for boogie nights anyway-sorry). This forum is great and very informative about lots of stuff ceroc and otherwise I agree.

Gus
8th-January-2003, 02:12 PM
The biggest issue with cowboys muscling in is not at experienced level .... these dancers usualy can spot how bad the cowboys are ... its at beginner level. I've lost bgineers to cowboys who start teaching flash moves and the newbies think its looks great (rather like being seduced by the dark side of the force:wink: ). The problem is six months down the line they haven't learnt the basics or ettiquete and they are a danger to dance with ... or near to!

HOWEVER ... to reiterate an earleir point, I think the existence of competing professional clubs, say Ceroc, LeRoc, Blitz, MoJive onloy help o imprtove the standrad. People will migrate to the club that plays the music and teaches the move sthat they like ... and typicaly they will also dance more often. In my neck of the woods a lot people from Crewe dance on a Tuesday at Ceroc Nantwich then go to Blitz Bowden on a Thursday.

Dr. Feelgood
8th-January-2003, 02:32 PM
Well, I guess we're just lucky in Scotland cos we don't have any cowboys up here :)

:cheers:

Gus
8th-January-2003, 02:46 PM
Well ... after a recent event I think I may have to change my views on 'friendly rivalry'. After being out of the game for over a year, and after the great success of the freestyles at the Middlewich venue, I've responded to a number of requests and am setting up a regular Modern Jive night there ... under the Blitz banner.

Given the geography of Cheshire, its within striking distance of a bout 4 other clubs .... but given the number of clubs in the area thats hard to avoid ... but the main focus to bring in dancers from the Vale Royal area ... who currently don't seem to dance.

UNFORTUNATELY not everyone has seen this as a positive step and I now, at last, have something in common with The Tramp, and have been banned from Ceroc Nantwich ..... which considering I set the club up etc rankles a bit. Am I being a little naive or is this a little 'anti-competitive'?

Will
8th-January-2003, 02:53 PM
I could be wrong, but they are probably worried that you are going to go and start stealing there customers by personally advertising your own night.

However, if this is the case I feel that it is well out of order for them to ban you on the assumption that you would do something that you haven't actually done. What happened to innocent until proven guilty? You have my sympathy on this one.

Will (hoping they re-consider their decision)


P.S. How about offering to be frisked for flyers on your way-in :wink:

Gus
8th-January-2003, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by Will

P.S. How about offering to be frisked for flyers on your way-in :wink:

Depends who is doing the frisking!! Considering the gorgeous female crew at the venue that could make getting banned worth it! Wonder if they would demand a strip search:yum:

Fair comment re the fears about poaching but people will hear about the venue anyway so banning me from the venue won't make any difference. I would like to think that clubs in the area could work together ... the key point is that the vast majority of the target popluation still don't know about Ceroc/Modern Jive and we need to be focusing on getting their attention rather than fighting among ourselves.

Dr. Feelgood
8th-January-2003, 03:18 PM
I had the distinct impression that you were anti-competition - apologies if I've misunderstood your earlier posts...

And does this make you a cowboy?

:cheers:

Gus
8th-January-2003, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by Dr. Feelgood

And does this make you a cowboy?

:cheers:

Ahem ... I hope not. 'Cowboys' is a term we use to describe the plethora of ex-taxi dancers and failed teachers who have set up club in the North and have no concept of actualy teaching.

{Tramp ... before you complain that you also fit in this category I've had feedback from a couple of sources about your blues workshop that say you taught them rather well!!}

I've been a qualified teacher with Ceroc for 3 years, taught in NZ and bonny Scotland and will also undergo 'retraining' with Blitz. Additionaly Blitz is the largest Jive organisation in the North .... not exactly a 'cowboy' operation.

Re my earlier comments re competition v anti-competition ... I was trying to say that competition is GOOD but some of the techniques used by some jive organisation is BAD .... does that make some kind of sense?

Dreadful Scathe
8th-January-2003, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by Gus


Re my earlier comments re competition v anti-competition ... I was trying to say that competition is GOOD but some of the teachniques used by some jive organisation is BAD .... does that make some king of sense?

Its easy to miss the fact that you're the offical devils advocate Gus. Some people just think you're schizophrenic. :)

Dr. Feelgood
8th-January-2003, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by Gus
I've been a qualified teacher with Ceroc for 3 years, taught in (NZ and) bonny Scotland Was this on a regular or one off basis? (just trying to work out who you are)

:cheers:

PeterL
8th-January-2003, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by Dr. Feelgood
Was this on a regular or one off basis? (just trying to work out who you are)

:cheers:

Just think big orange trousers I think.
Gus please feel free to correct me if I have the wrong person.

Gus
8th-January-2003, 04:53 PM
Originally posted by PeterL


Just think big orange trousers I think.
Gus please feel free to correct me if I have the wrong person.

Not BIG enough ... they're a bit tight these days .... methinks I need to get down to the gym again.


Originally posted by Dr. Feelgood


Was this on a regular or one off basis? (just trying to work out who you are)

Was the main teacher at Nantwich from Early 2000 through to mid 2002. Resigned from CTA in August (I think) but have done cover teaching for Blitz in the North and teach workshops under the Gorgeous Gus Dance banner (Gorgeus Gus of course being our incredibly handsome 3ft gorilla mascot).

Also DJ'd all around the place including London

Dr. Feelgood
8th-January-2003, 05:26 PM
I'm none the wiser

:cheers:

TheTramp
8th-January-2003, 07:45 PM
Hiya Gus :)

And welcome to the club.

Methinks we should get some 'I've been banned by ceroc' t-shirts...


Ahem ... I hope not. 'Cowboys' is a term we use to describe the plethora of ex-taxi dancers and failed teachers who have set up club in the North and have no concept of actualy teaching.Incidentally, thanks for the compliment re. my classes.

Just wanted to say, on the teaching side of things. In defence of people that I've never seen teach. And quite possibly don't want to. I guess it's quite difficult to start off being a teacher. I'm lucky - I've taught many different things over time, to varying sizes of class, and I've also been on stage since I was about 9, so I don't really get nervous. But for people just starting off, I'm sure that it must be difficult. I wonder how good the ceroc classes were, when they first started all those years ago. Now, the structure is in place to ensure that all the teachers are at least fairly competant before they get up on stage.

Speaking from personal experience. I was put forward to become a ceroc teacher, 4 times by different franchisees, and each time, I was rejected without even getting an interview. It was only in frustration after being treated in that way, that I decided to 'go it alone'. At the time, I would have been highly delighted to become a ceroc teacher - and I wonder if any of said 'cowboys' are in the same boat as me. Age and body shape doesn't fit the criteria, so no matter how capable a dancer and/or teacher you would be, you stand no chance of being accepted by ceroc.

So. I'm always a little sympathetic towards anybody who does start up on their own. And Gus, I really hope that your venture suceeds. I'll look forward to the first opportunity I get to come dance there!! (Was in Altrincham today, and considered coming dancing up there, but with the snow, I thought that it would be more sensible to get home!).

Steve

Dance Demon
8th-January-2003, 08:05 PM
Well said Steve. Now that Ceroc has become established they can be choosy about who they recruit both as teachers and taxi dancers. The young slim and fit look is obviously more preferable.
In some instances they may lose out on a good prospective teacher, by sticking to this criteria. However if someone who has had a knockback decides to go it alone and is successful, more power to their elbow I say. I don't remember when I first got my Ceroc membership card, that it made me the sole property of Ceroc for dance purposes, and like many, I go where the teaching/dancing/music is good, regardless of who runs the event

DD:devil: :cheers:

Basil Brush (Forum Plant)
8th-January-2003, 09:31 PM
Hear hear DD. And sorry to hear about Tramp's failed venture!

It is a shame that entry into the teacher thing it's so strict, but I was once told this was to keep the profile of ceroc "young and sexy". The irony is that most dancers who attend (like myself) - are not! If potential teachers are chosen mainly through their image, do we therefore produce clones with the emphasis being on aesthetics rather than teaching ability? I doubt it, but that's what one might think.
like many, I go where the teaching/dancing/music is good, regardless of who runs the event Me too.

Nick M
5th-January-2004, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Does this mean that 'Ceroc' is now the name of the company rather than the style of dance.

Surely it always was, wasnt it? (asks Nick, in genuine ignorance)

TheTramp
5th-January-2004, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by Nick M
Surely it always was, wasnt it? (asks Nick, in genuine ignorance) Ooh... if only you'd been here when we had this big debate about it last year :D

Steve

Martin
5th-January-2004, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by Nick M
Surely it always was, wasnt it? (asks Nick, in genuine ignorance)
Tramp beat me to this one :mad:

Best check out the thread
Ceroc Scotland Forum > Ceroc / dance technical discussions > Let's talk about dance > Ceroc and Modern Jive History

Or the website
www.howtojive.com

:D

TheTramp
5th-January-2004, 02:36 PM
Originally posted by Martin
Tramp beat me to this one :mad: Always. Gotta get up earlier than that Marty! :wink:

Steve

Martin
5th-January-2004, 02:41 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Always. Gotta get up earlier than that Marty! :wink:

Steve
Takes time to quote correctly and provide details of thread and website instead of inane coments...:tears: :kiss: :kiss:

TheTramp
5th-January-2004, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by Martin
Takes time to quote correctly and provide details of thread and website instead of inane coments...:tears: :kiss: :kiss: That's why I tend to go with the inane comments, you Lemon! :D

Steve

Martin
5th-January-2004, 02:47 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
That's why I tend to go with the inane comments, you Lemon! :D

Steve
Ahh yes the "Lemon" :blush: :blush:

You win, English diction going down-hill, been here too long...:what:

Still your English must be suffering with you in no-mans land now...:rolleyes:

TheTramp
5th-January-2004, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by Martin
Ahh yes the "Lemon" :blush: :blush:

You win, English diction going down-hill, been here too long...:what:

Still your English must be suffering with you in no-mans land now...:rolleyes: Ah. Just a wee amount. Still, it's pretty bonny up here. And the lassies... well.... :wink:

Steve

Andy McGregor
5th-January-2004, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by Nick M
Surely it always was, wasnt it? (asks Nick, in genuine ignorance)
Speaking personally, I always thought Ceroc was just the name of the company. But other people use it as the name of the dance. The best people to tell you would be Ceroc HQ themselves.

Maybe Franck has the answer - if he's allowed to tell us:devil:

Franck
5th-January-2004, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Speaking personally, I always thought Ceroc was just the name of the company. But other people use it as the name of the dance. The best people to tell you would be Ceroc HQ themselves.

Maybe Franck has the answer - if he's allowed to tell us:devil: I don't have the answer, but here is a link to a previous post I made on that very subject. (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=9213#post9213)

I still think Ceroc is a great name for the Modern Jive dance known as Ceroc :wink: and I see no reason why it can't be used (other than it annoys the competition :devil: :wink: )

Franck.

Andy McGregor
5th-January-2004, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by Franck
I don't have the answer, but here is a link to a previous post I made on that very subject. (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&postid=9213#post9213)

I still think Ceroc is a great name for the Modern Jive dance known as Ceroc :wink: and I see no reason why it can't be used (other than it annoys the competition :devil: :wink: )

Franck.

I followed the link and it seems that the oracle disagreed with Franck.

So I agree with the oracle, I think the dance we know and love is not Ceroc - unless you are at a Ceroc class and they call it that:devil:

Franck
5th-January-2004, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I followed the link and it seems that the oracle disagreed with Franck.A common occurrence :wink:

However, I have to point out that the quoted posts was made prior to receiving 'Oracle' status, so he might have been mistaken :D

Ceroc is the dance, taught by the Ceroc organization, and copied by many other (mostly ex Ceroc) organizations (eg Blitz, MoJive, Riviera, Hipsters, etc...) most (if not all) of them were trained by the CTA, and dance / teach Ceroc under their own name / umbrella, with more or less success... :D

On a side note, what dance is it that you dance when you go to a non-Ceroc 'Modern Jive' night? Do you have a better name? I find Modern Jive particularly ugly!

I'll stop now before I re-start the whole thread again :wink:
Anyone would think I was putting off work... :innocent:

TheTramp
5th-January-2004, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by Franck
However, I have to point out that the quoted posts was made prior to receiving 'Oracle' status, so he might have been mistaken :D Surely not, or he'd never have made 'Oracle' status?? :rolleyes:

Steve

Gus
5th-January-2004, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by Franck

(eg Blitz, ....) most (if not all) of them were trained by the CTA :D


Urrr point of order Sir ..... I dont believe that ANY of Blitz's instructors (with exception of myself, and I'm an independant who happens to teach for Blitz) are Ceroc trained :devil:

Chris
5th-January-2004, 06:53 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
Is Ceroc a dance.
Sorry - no. I would only consider it to be THE name for the dance if:
- non-Cerocers only used the name Ceroc, and no other name.
- only Ceroc taught it at the beginning, and for the first few years
- Ceroc took it to an established dance body and asked for it to be formalised.
- Ceroc allowed the name to be used by anyone else
Originally posted by Franck
Ceroc is the dance, taught by the Ceroc organization, and copied by many . . . On a side note, what dance is it that you dance when you go to a non-Ceroc 'Modern Jive' night? Do you have a better name? I find Modern Jive particularly ugly!

An excellent example of failed fascism maybe lol? :devil:

In a strict sense, Ceroc has evolved a distinctive version of MJ, whether you call it the dance or a teaching method/structure. To say it has been copied is just hard cheese - anyone could have 'copied' it from the same roots, or 'copied' it from LeRoc, which had identical roots - the truth is there are a lot of MJ dancers frustrated by the rigidity of Ceroc and they fill a need. Who was there first makes no odds except to marketing and people's egos.

In a vernacular sense, all these other modern jive nights should be called ceroc by punters if they wish (with a small 'c') because that is the most common and understandable word that describes it and is recognisable to the man in the street. Eventually Ceroc's patent on the word will expire and probably everyone will refer to it as Ceroc (without fear of being sued) and maybe assert individuality some other way - 'Blitz Ceroc' or whatever!

It is unlike Franck to winge about the competition. Success breeds imitators and similar success stories, better, worse and indifferent, like in any other type of business. It's a compliment. Think of it as you would as children who have grown up and gone on to be a success in their own right if you will. Even if Ceroc did once have some almighty moral high ground, won with hard work over the years etc, we have passed the time when everyone should still pay obeisance to it. (You could just as easily say a new restaurant has built on the success of another restauarant!) Whatever good things Ceroc has done it has also made some terrible blunders (and still survived) - this 'holier than thou' attitude just doesn't wash except with the devotees. Stop griping and get on with trying to remain the best and innovative.

And remember to be nice to other organisations on the way up - you'll probably meet some of the same ones on the way down. :hug:

Ceroc is a case of successful branding that is hanging on to its namesake, like any other patent or trademark. To do so is reasonable business sense, however offensive to common sense!

(soothing vibes to anyone who finds this post too robust) :innocent: :innocent: :innocent:

Gus
5th-January-2004, 07:18 PM
Originally posted by Chris
Whatever good things Ceroc has done it has also made some terrible blunders (and still survived) - this 'holier than thou' attitude just doesn't wash except with the devotees.

{ODA Mode On}
Interesting post. Not sure that the "holier than thou attitude" exists. If I was running a successful franchise operation then several of the franchisees ran off to keep more of the loot for themselves ... I think I could be a bit miffed ... not that I'm saying this is what actually happened but some do perceive that as being the truth.

Also, WHAT terrible blunders ... please do tell :devil: :devil: For any 'blunder' made by Ceroc, I'm sure there are enough committed by the competition.

At the end of the day, even i the North west where blitz dominates, most people refer to Modern Jive as 'Ceroc'. Whether that lessens Ceroc's ability to hand onto the trademark is a question for lawyers .... but do the punters even care?

{ODA Mode Off}

Chris
5th-January-2004, 07:31 PM
Originally posted by Gus
any 'blunder' made by Ceroc, I'm sure there are enough committed by the competition.
Of course - and I should have maybe added 'IMO' about Ceroc blunders - as there will be some who think Ceroc has only done everything right of course. One could enumerate 'faults' - about Ceroc or other orgs - every organisation has faults and has made blunders - but there's no need (unless they are so hard headed as to claim - and sincerely believe it - the immaculate gold standard all the time). And where one group falls short another will often excel - that is the nature of good business.
:cheers:

TheTramp
5th-January-2004, 08:14 PM
I think that Gus was interested in actually what you thought of as Ceroc blunders. What exactly did they do wrong in your opinion?

Steve

Chris
5th-January-2004, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
I think that Gus was interested in actually what you thought of as Ceroc blunders. What exactly did they do wrong in your opinion?
Steve

Well if you (or anyone else) want to list Ceroc blunders that's up to you. If you want to claim they don't make any, why not do so? I only think it is relevant to the debate about whether ceroc is dance in terms of whether one believes ceroc is 'faultless' or not. (I'd rather get flamed for the points I'm making than the ones you want to make!)

TheTramp
5th-January-2004, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by Chris
Well if you (or anyone else) want to list Ceroc blunders that's up to you. If you want to claim they don't make any, why not do so? I only think it is relevant to the debate about whether ceroc is dance in terms of whether one believes ceroc is 'faultless' or not. (I'd rather get flamed for the points I'm making than the ones you want to make!) Oh. Come on Chris. You said something.....

Originally posted by Chris
Whatever good things Ceroc has done it has also made some terrible blundersYou obviously have an opinion on this. Gus (and I) were interested in what you had to say. I was interested in what blunders you thought Ceroc had made.

Don't be so defensive.

Steve

ChrisA
5th-January-2004, 08:48 PM
Originally posted by Chris
Whatever good things Ceroc has done it has also made some terrible blunders (and still survived)
Well I'd be interested to hear what these terrible blunders are supposed to be.

Seems to me that anyone who makes an accusation such as this should be prepared to substantiate it or withdraw it.

Chris

Chris
5th-January-2004, 08:59 PM
The list of flappers is sooooooo predictable - just cue Lounge Lizard to echo (yawn) but none of you have the b*llocks to claim Ceroc hasn't made blunders. No thanks. If the points I made are too fine for you to follow then have the argument without me. Bye.

TheTramp
5th-January-2004, 09:08 PM
Okie. So, at first I was genuinely interested in knowing what you perceived the blunders to be, in your post that was so completely anti-ceroc.

Please remember that I have no reason in the past to be a Ceroc 'devotee'. Having been turned down by their head office 3 times after being put forward by franchise holders to teach. As well as being banned for a year for something I didn't do.

Now, you've just done it all over again (antagonised people). Made comments which you won't follow up (despite being asked reasonably), followed by statements that could be taken as being personal . I do wonder what your motives and thoughts are sometimes Chris, and why you post what you do on here.

The whole point of my post was to ask you to enlarge on one of the points you made. I'm sorry if in my limited understanding it was too fine for me to follow without this....

Steve

Gus
5th-January-2004, 09:08 PM
Originally posted by Chris
The list of flappers is sooooooo predictable - just cue Lounge Lizard to echo (yawn) but none of you have the b*llocks to claim Ceroc hasn't made blunders. No thanks. If the points I made are too fine for you to follow then have the argument without me. Bye.

Ouch :sick: Considering both Tramp and myself have felt the direct vengance of Ceroc (both being banned from selected venues) and that I dont think I can claim never to have had a go at Ceroc (:devil: ) .... I think it is a mite unfair to say we've never claimed Ceroc has been 'less than perfect'. I think Trampy was, like myself, curious as to what you consiedered to be a blunder?

There are a whole range of accusations I've heard before but I've made myself more than unpopular before by airing them on this site (maybe justifiably so) ..... so I was keen to see the views of someone else with a different perspective :wink:

Franck
5th-January-2004, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by Chris
It is unlike Franck to winge about the competition. Success breeds imitators and similar success stories, better, worse and indifferent, like in any other type of business. It's a compliment. You're right Chris, it's unlike me :D
So unlike me in fact that I wasn't whingeing at all!
I was just having a few 'light-hearted' digs at an old thread / argument.
As you point out above, competition and success are tightly linked, and in many ways, a lot of the recent developments have come about through the very healthy dance scene that exists in the UK. I can only wish that it continues that way and that many more people discover or continue dancing, though obviously, I'd rather they did via Ceroc :wink:

I am (and always have been) fully aware that there are some excellent 'Modern Jive / Ceroc' nights that are not operated by a Ceroc Franchisee!

My point was really to say that as a generic name for the dance, then Ceroc is the best of the bunch, it is better than 'Modern Jive' and has already sipped into mass consciousness...

David Franklin
5th-January-2004, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by Chris
The list of flappers is sooooooo predictable - just cue Lounge Lizard to echo (yawn) but none of you have the b*llocks to claim Ceroc hasn't made blunders. No thanks. If the points I made are too fine for you to follow then have the argument without me. Bye.
Originally posted by Gus
Ouch :sick:
There are a whole range of accusations I've heard before but I've made myself more than unpopular before by airing them on this site (maybe justifiably so) ..... so I was keen to see the views of someone else with a different perspective :wink: To be fair to Chris, following his last few discussions, and as you say, the fact that such accusations tend to make you unpopular, I can see why he might feel everyone was waiting to jump on him the moment he actually said anything.

Dave

Chris
5th-January-2004, 09:22 PM
Originally posted by Franck
You're right Chris, it's unlike me :D
So unlike me in fact that I wasn't whingeing at all!
I was just having a few 'light-hearted' digs at an old thread / argument.
As you point out above, competition and success are tightly linked, and in many ways, a lot of the recent developments have come about through the very healthy dance scene that exists in the UK. I can only wish that it continues that way and that many more people discover or continue dancing, though obviously, I'd rather they did via Ceroc :wink:

I am (and always have been) fully aware that there are some excellent 'Modern Jive / Ceroc' nights that are not operated by a Ceroc Franchisee!

My point was really to say that as a generic name for the dance, then Ceroc is the best of the bunch, it is better than 'Modern Jive' and has already sipped into mass consciousness...

And I'm sure it may even slip into the Oxford English Dictionary eventually as such (which interestingly might even choose to give two definitions, the trade-marked one and a vernacular one). And the non-whingeing Franck is much more like the one I know :wink:
:cheers:

Andy McGregor
5th-January-2004, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by Chris
Eventually Ceroc's patent on the word will expire and probably everyone will refer to it as Ceroc (without fear of being sued) and maybe assert individuality some other way - 'Blitz Ceroc' or whatever!

-/snip/-

Ceroc is a case of successful branding that is hanging on to its namesake, like any other patent or trademark. To do so is reasonable business sense, however offensive to common sense!
[/B]

As I understand it Ceroc is a registered trademark. Trademarks do not expire like Copyright. A trademark is an asset of the business and is owned by the business. It does not expire.



Originally posted by Chris
Even if Ceroc did once have some almighty moral high ground, won with hard work over the years etc, we have passed the time when everyone should still pay obeisance to it. (You could just as easily say a new restaurant has built on the success of another restauarant!) Whatever good things Ceroc has done it has also made some terrible blunders

Blunders? What other franchise has allowed/been forced to accept what Ceroc has. Is there now a Blitzburger where there was once a Burger King is there a MoDonalds where there was once McDonalds? I don't think so:devil: I blame the lawyers:wink:

Chris
5th-January-2004, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
As I understand it Ceroc is a registered trademark. Trademarks do not expire like Copyright. A trademark is an asset of the business and is owned by the business. It does not expire.

True, not like copyright, but I think it can expire under certain conditions. Makes no difference as far as dictionary definitions go though

DavidB
5th-January-2004, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
As I understand it Ceroc is a registered trademark. Trademarks do not expire like Copyright. A trademark is an asset of the business and is owned by the business. It does not expire. Trademarks expire after 10 years, although you have the option of renewing them every time they are going to expire.

Copyrights last anything from 25 years from publication, to 70 years after the author's death. (The difference probably depends on how good your lawyer is.)

David

Gus
5th-January-2004, 10:50 PM
So .... can we expect all the competing 'Modern Jive' organisations to start claiming they teach CEROC :devil: And ... while they are at it ... can they defined what is Ceroc/Non-Ceroc???

I remember someone once telling me that Ceroc is defined by all the moves that are defined as 'moves' by the CTA! Wonder if anyone would still be confident enough to stand by that argument?

Andy McGregor
5th-January-2004, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
Trademarks expire after 10 years, although you have the option of renewing them every time they are going to expire.
David

How does DavidB know all this stuff? My understanding is that a trademark registration lasts for 10 years after which time a company can renew it. No other company can steal that registration at the time of renewal so it would remain the property of the company for as long as they require the use of it and kept their registration up to date. There is therefore no time when companies rights to exclusive use of that trademark expires against their will - which is what I meant in my post.

Also, I believe a company's rights to a trademark can be asserted without a registration. The can also be asserted by trading in that named product and making certain that all literature contains a line that says something like 'MoJiveBurger is a Trademark of BlitzBurger Ltd' - but you can not say that a trademark is registered unless it is.

This would make it very difficult for a company to start to use the name Ceroc even if it was not registered. This reminds me, some years ago I was told by Robert Austin (who ran the LeJive company that ran the first Modern Jive contests that were perceived by many to have questionable judging decisions) that he'd registered LeJive and was considering registering LaJive as well. I looked them up and there is no registration for LeJive or Lajive - so he didn't tell me the truth, was he honest about everything else I wonder:innocent:

ChrisA
6th-January-2004, 12:49 AM
Originally posted by David Franklin
I can see why he might feel everyone was waiting to jump on him the moment he actually said anything.

I wasn't doing any jumping. I was just expressing the same curiosity as Steve.

If Chris steps up to the plate and claims Ceroc has made some "terrible blunders", then I'm curious to know what they are.

I have no axe to grind one way or the other - I am very pro-Ceroc, but at the same time I'm conscious of some areas in which it's lacking. But areas for development aren't the same as "terrible blunders".

As I said, anyone (not just Chris) who is going to make substantial accusations such as that, in public, ought to have the "b*llocks" to defend them - in a reasoned and civilised way, of course - or withdraw them.

I don't understand the reluctance to elaborate. That's all.

Chris

bigdjiver
6th-January-2004, 01:06 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA
If Chris steps up to the plate and claims Ceroc has made some "terrible blunders", then I'm curious to know what they are.

I have no axe to grind one way or the other - I am very pro-Ceroc, but at the same time I'm conscious of some areas in which it's lacking. But areas for development aren't the same as "terrible blunders".

As I said, anyone (not just Chris) who is going to make substantial accusations such as that, in public, ought to have the "b*llocks" to defend them - in a reasoned and civilised way, of course - or withdraw them.

Chris

I am not aware of any terrible blunders. To say they have made such denigrates their management. IMO this sort of accusation should either be substantiated or withdrawn.

Gus
6th-January-2004, 01:08 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA As I said, anyone (not just Chris) who is going to make substantial accusations such as that, in public, ought to have the "b*llocks" to defend them - in a reasoned and civilised way, of course - or withdraw them.
[/B]

As ODA I feel compelled to stand up to the plate:devil: :devil: :devil:

Ceroc HAS (in the past) been extremeley 'pro-active' against competitors .... ask Blitz what happened, ask what happened re flyering outside venues after the Mo'Jive breakaway.

Ceroc were also very anti- events like Jive Spree. Teachers were openly told they could NOT attend .... (I didnt know any of this and turned up to my second Camber wearing my CTA jacket and couldn't understand the reponse I got).

CTA has been very focused on its intake ... and not always from a dancing and teaching perspective ...

I could go on but thats not the point. If you think Ceroc has been whiter than white then I'm afraid you just haven't been privy to a lot of what has gone on.

HOWEVER ... I would say that a lot has changed in Ceroc over the last 12 months or so (there was a time when teacher's contracts forbade them from entering comeptitions) ..... and I dont believe that Ceroc are any worse than any other dance organisation.

As has been said before, the world is a far better place with Ceroc and all its faults than simply without.
:waycool:

ChrisA
6th-January-2004, 01:16 AM
Originally posted by Gus
As has been said before, the world is a far better place with Ceroc and all its faults than simply without.
:waycool: Hear hear, and let the record show that Gus is clearly in possession of the previously mooted b*llocks. At least if there's a debate to be had, then it can be.

Chris

Andy McGregor
6th-January-2004, 01:28 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Hear hear, and let the record show that Gus is clearly in possession of the previously mooted b*llocks. Chris

Hey, I think I showed mine earlier, did nobody notice - again:tears:



Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Blunders? What other franchise has allowed/been forced to accept what Ceroc has. Is there now a Blitzburger where there was once a Burger King is there a MoDonalds where there was once McDonalds? I don't think so:devil: I blame the lawyers:wink:

bobgadjet
6th-January-2004, 01:29 AM
Originally posted by Franck

My point was really to say that as a generic name for the dance, then Ceroc is the best of the bunch, it is better than 'Modern Jive' and has already sipped into mass consciousness...

I'm new to this thing but read with slightly amused interest, the banter between you guys. it seems to me you've lost the "thread" more than just a little. (not you Franck)

It would make more sense to expand the thread instead of putting others off by your back chat, and certainly bringing up historic comments.

So, to expand the thread a little, my experience is that the name "ceroc" is not only put to a dance form, but also to "music".

I have lost count of the number of times I have been asked to play more "Ceroc music". I would much prefer that I was asked for "Modern Jive" music, but that's a personal thing, as all of my comments on this forum would be.

And on your argument about mistakes, well, how does one improve if you dont experiment? Would we have any inventive evenings if chances were not taken by any person, or organisation. Also, the bigger the organisation the more they are watched, and envied, and the more mistakes they are likely to make.

It's not so much the making of mistakes that matter, more the repairing of the situation afterwards, and being brave enough to own up and say that one has made a mistake in the first place. If any, I don't know what the mistakes are that you are mentioning, but so what, are those that criticize really THAT perfect.

Personally, if it was not for the Ceroc organisation I would not have improved my West Coast Swing, and would not have met my latest love, so thanks to them for all of that.

Andy McGregor
6th-January-2004, 01:43 AM
Originally posted by bobgadjet
I have lost count of the number of times I have been asked to play more "Ceroc music". I would much prefer that I was asked for "Modern Jive" music, but that's a personal thing, as all of my comments on this forum would be.

I agree with bobgadjet. From the "Ceroc music" I've heard at some (thankfully not all - not even most) Ceroc venues I'd much prefer to hear some other music played - you could call it "Modern Jive" if you liked:wink: :devil:

Some DJs seem to think that we need tracks with a continuous/monotonous beat with a fade at the end of every track - not just Ceroc DJs.

p.s. I've heard people who's opinion I respect giving praise to bobgadjet so he sounds like a great DJ:waycool:

Andy McGregor
6th-January-2004, 02:17 AM
Originally posted by bobgadjet
It's not so much the making of mistakes that matter, more the repairing of the situation afterwards, and being brave enough to own up and say that one has made a mistake in the first place. If any, I don't know what the mistakes are that you are mentioning, but so what, are those that criticize really THAT perfect.


One thing about learning from and repairing after mistakes is that we need to know when we've made them and we need to accept that a mistake has been made. Then we can 'own up' to the mistake and get on and learn from them. And sometimes and outsider is better placed to tell Ceroc when they've made a mistake. Remember, the person that never made a mistake never made anything.

Here on the forum people debate the actions of Ceroc (among other things). There is criticism, there is heated debate. It is usually constructive because we all like to dance (preferably in a smoke free atmosphere). The debate should be 'reasoned' that means people should give reasons for holding a particular opinion rather than something like 'I like black t-shirts with no sleeves' without saying why they like them. Some people write their ideas and opinions on here and they get upset when people disagree with them - this is normal. It is the start of the debate - if you like, the opening of hostilities. But the debate should not be an all out war with casualties that you never see here again. It should be more like a game of table tennis, the ball moves from one side of the table to the other with each player trying to outwit the other - and just to add spice, the players sometimes have the bat taken off them by another player - but at the end of the day it's just a game and we should all be able to meet in the bar afterwards for a lemonade and a chat about the game, even if we lost

One thing that stifles debate is name calling with no purpose. You could reasonably say 'In my opinion, anyone who dances is a black t-shirt is a mindless follower of Ceroc fashion'. But it does not further the debate to say "if you wear a black t-shirt you are a twerp!", we need to know why they're a twerp - which they obviously are by the way:wink:

And that brings me neatly on to my final point. Other people will read what we write and judge us by it. They can read it once or a hundred times and let it really start to bug them, they can quote something we said a year ago and make us look like we're contradicting ourselves. So my advice to new Forumites is 'go ugly early'. Make a fool out of yourself straight away like Gus:wink:

And occasionally we're silly - well actually most of the time, look here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1827) and here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1848) if you need any evidence:confused:

bobgadjet
6th-January-2004, 02:31 AM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor

p.s. I've heard people who's opinion I respect giving praise to bobgadjet so he sounds like a great DJ:waycool:

So, if I get the drift of the long explanitory note after the one with the above quote (eh ?), I should say "yes I am", rather than "thanks".

Anyway, thanks.

bigdjiver
6th-January-2004, 02:58 AM
We cannot really use Ceroc as the name for the dance (but we will). Apart from the trademark issue, the Ceroc dance moves are listed in a big book and the Ceroc style is taught during training and at regular updates. Both these sources are subject to continuous change. We should be proclaiming I do Ceroc 93 or Ceroc 01 or whatever.

I started a new thread "New Year - New Broom" in the beginners section, because changes are apparently on the way there, but we were also taught a new official way of walking around tonight in the intermediate class.

I never liked the idea of describing it as "Modern Jive" - age has a habit of making nonsense of that sort of title. We have a Bedford Modern School here - formed in the 15th Century. However I describe what I do as Modern Jive. I do many things in a non-Ceroc way.

Martin
6th-January-2004, 07:09 AM
Originally posted by bigdjiver
We should be proclaiming I do Ceroc 93 or Ceroc 01 or whatever.

I never liked the idea of describing it as "Modern Jive" - age has a habit of making nonsense of that sort of title. We have a Bedford Modern School here - formed in the 15th Century. However I describe what I do as Modern Jive. I do many things in a non-Ceroc way.

With the arrival of "Ceroc Plus" at Fleet (what's that Simon up to now...)

Maybe I could say I do "Ceroc plus" - Basic Ceroc plus all the bits I put into it...:cheers:

I normally tell people I do "Modern partner dancing". Then go onto explain what it is. This probably has something to do with the fact that I did not learn initially from a Ceroc franchise.


For simplicity in Sydney I sometimes use the term Ceroc as that is what they call it in this city, and in a room of 8 people there is normally one person who knows someone who has tried it.

Gus
6th-January-2004, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by bigdjiver
We cannot really use Ceroc as the name for the dance (but we will). Apart from the trademark issue, the Ceroc dance moves are listed in a big book and the Ceroc style is taught during training and at regular updates.

I think the 'Big Book' is a red herring .... there are many 'non-ceroc' moves in the book (i.e. classic salsa, Tango, RnR, Swing moves) that Ceroc has just assimilated .... so can the book be regareded as Ceroc(TM) moves ... dont think so :tears:

Gadget
6th-January-2004, 09:50 AM
Personally, I think that the term "Modern Jive" better for the form of dance than "Ceroc":

For people that have never seen or heard of Ceroc, what does the name tell you?
When mentioned, it would be in a dance related context, so you can assume that it's something to do with dance. Phonetically, it says "rock" which could reasonable assume to be a form of "rock and roll". The "See" would either be interpreted as a dance to be seen (ie show off), or a French thing, sounding pretentious.

The term "Modern Jive" however is much more descriptive - I imagine that "Jive" would conjure up big band, rock and roll type dancing. "Modern" would tell you that it's progressed and is danced to more modern music.
Although admittedly, the term could be mistaken for a 60's idea of "modern". :sick:

I would think that more people dance because it's fun and they like the music than because they want to show off.

bobgadjet
6th-January-2004, 10:28 AM
Originally posted by Gadget

I would think that more people dance because it's fun and they like the music than because they want to show off.

If that's what you think then you should probably take a better look at those around you, or maybe sit out and "people watch" for a few dances, especially if there is an expressive tune being played.

Why not show off anyway? If you've got the style, the stance, and the guts to do it well, and I mean, do it WELL, then why not show off.

Let it all go, and enjoy yourself, and what better place to do it than on a dancefloor to a great piece of music.

Put the two things together - SHOW OFF and HAVE FUN.

Oh, if we could all do it as well as those that REALLY can.

Andy McGregor
6th-January-2004, 10:45 AM
Originally posted by Gadget
I would think that more people dance because it's fun and they like the music than because they want to show off.

"Show off" is not the right term. It sounds too negative. Speaking personally, I love it when people are watching me and my partner dance and I consider the wathchers are being 'entertained' - that's part of the fun.

But, like Martin, I don't Ceroc. I hadn't even heard of Ceroc when I started MJ classes (I hadn't heard of MJ either). I went to LeRoc classes and I called it that.

The dance is not Ceroc any more than every hamburger is called a Big Mac.

My own opinion is that we need a new name for the actual dance we do. We know it's a variation of jive but is 'modern' the right prefix for now and the future. I think not. I rather like French Jive, I now know it's not French (thanks Franck) but it is rather like Argentinian Tango, it sounds exotic. And anyone doing French Jive is bound to be considered a fantastic lover:waycool:

Well potentially anyway:wink:

Anyone got any other names that might fit the bill?

Gadget
6th-January-2004, 12:14 PM
I dissagree; "Show Off" is exactly the term I meant when portraying what an outsider would imagine the dance to portray.

Admitedly, there is an element of display and entertainment in the dance ( :waycool: ).
But are you there to "show off" to your partner, your audience, your ghosts, your god, your self, or no-one?

Back on-topic :what: {well, almost: if you don't like the name "Modern Jive" or "Ceroc", what is there?}...
I like the connentations in "Jive"; it also is an acknowledgement of the dance's roots... how about "Freestyle Jive"? or just "Free Jive"?

bigdjiver
6th-January-2004, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Gus
I think the 'Big Book' is a red herring .... there are many 'non-ceroc' moves in the book (i.e. classic salsa, Tango, RnR, Swing moves) that Ceroc has just assimilated .... so can the book be regareded as Ceroc(TM) moves ... dont think so :tears:

Disagree - the law seems to be that nobody "owns" a dance move. If they are in the Ceroc book, they can be described as a Ceroc move. That description does not mean that they are not also Walts, Tango, Swing etc moves as well.

bigdjiver
6th-January-2004, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
I dissagree; "Show Off" is exactly the term I meant when portraying what an outsider would imagine the dance to portray.

Admitedly, there is an element of display and entertainment in the dance ( :waycool: ).
But are you there to "show off" to your partner, your audience, your ghosts, your god, your self, or no-one?

Back on-topic :what: {well, almost: if you don't like the name "Modern Jive" or "Ceroc", what is there?}...
I like the connentations in "Jive"; it also is an acknowledgement of the dance's roots... how about "Freestyle Jive"? or just "Free Jive"?

Mostly when I have heard the expression "show off" it has followed "Don't". However I also believe that showing off, exhibitionism, display and entertainment are all components in making the dance form what it is. I also believe that we should not force those elements on those that do it just for a bit of one-on-one social interaction.

I have always preferred the misnomer French Jive, but "Free Jive" would get my vote anyday. Someone with philanthropic intentions should nip down to the trademark office right away with that, before someone with commercial ones does it.

Will
6th-January-2004, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
My own opinion is that we need a new name for the actual dance we do. We know it's a variation of jive but is 'modern' the right prefix for now and the future. I think not. I rather like French Jive, I now know it's not French (thanks Franck) but it is rather like Argentinian Tango, it sounds exotic. And anyone doing French Jive is bound to be considered a fantastic lover:waycool:

I know what you're saying. Personally I think that any dance form that uses the word "Jive" to describe itself immediately makes it harder to attract the younger crowd due to it's mainstream film conatations of being old fashioned (mostly thanks to Hollywood).

As a separate and totally open question, do people think that the term "modern jive" would have come into existance if "ceroc" hadn't been made into a trademark?

TheTramp
6th-January-2004, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by Will
As a separate and totally open question, do people think that the term "modern jive" would have come into existance if "ceroc" hadn't been made into a trademark? Yes. Because of the LeRoc name. Certainly, in some parts of the country, there is no Ceroc, and has either never been any, or hasn't been any for some time.

There has always had to be a 'common name' to distinguish what is the same dance. I think that 'free jive' isn't a bad name. Although, maybe the use of the word 'modern' does help to cancel out the connatations of being old fashioned?

Steve

Will
6th-January-2004, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Yes. Because of the LeRoc name. Certainly, in some parts of the country, there is no Ceroc, and has either never been any, or hasn't been any for some time.
That's a good point. Leroc has existed since 1982 I believe, yet Ceroc didn't become copywrited till around 1990? On the other hand, I don't know about Brighton, but isn't it the case that that other well known Leroc enclave, Bristol, used to call it ceroc until the trademark came in? Maybe someone can confirm this?

Gadget
6th-January-2004, 04:56 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Although, maybe the use of the word 'modern' does help to cancel out the connatations of being old fashioned?
The point being that people have been using the word "modern" for so long that it no longer is true to the dictionary definition of "Characteristic or expressive of recent times or the present; contemporary or up-to-date" because "recent times" could be anything from the last 60 years.

To respond to Will's comment "Personally I think that any dance form that uses the
word "Jive" to describe itself immediately makes it harder to attract the younger crowd due to it's mainstream film conatations of being old fashioned (mostly thanks to Hollywood)."
True, this is the image it would portray, but the precursor should lend a different spin on the image - trying to say "yes, this is sort of what we do, but with a more up-to-date flavour."

How about "Pop Jive" or "Jive Pop" ? {crass commercialism here we come!}

Andy McGregor
6th-January-2004, 05:14 PM
Originally posted by Will
I know what you're saying. Personally I think that any dance form that uses the word "Jive" to describe itself immediately makes it harder to attract the younger crowd due to it's mainstream film conatations of being old fashioned (mostly thanks to Hollywood).


I like the sound of the jive bit. It makes the dance sound more macho than ballroom - which sounds a bit camp for your average man (but not me, want to see my modern and latin medals?). Even Hells Angels jive and nobody would call them camp - well not twice anyway:wink:

It would be nice if we could all agree on a single name. Maybe we should think up a few more then have a poll - although that does sound a bit too democratic:wink:

So far I think we've got

Modern Jive
French Jive
Free Jive
Pop Jive
Freestyle Jive

Any more to add? How about some that don't have 'jive' in the name?

Dr. Feelgood
6th-January-2004, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
How about "Pop Jive" or "Jive Pop" ? {crass commercialism here we come!}
Then we'd need a different name for what goes on at events which don't play 'pop' (of the up to the minute variety) but where the style of dance is largely the same same as that which goes on at most 'jive' events.

The 'problem' is that the same form of dance is danced to many different forms of music so the name of the dance really needs to be kept separate from the music.

I use the word 'jive' but I'm aware that to the uninitiated this will probably conjure up 50s, R'n'R images... and while this is part of the story, it isn't the whole story by any means. So perhaps 'jive' isn't the best word... but as soon as you try to tie one musical form to the word you exclude all others.

I would suggest "Universal Jive"... but I'm not keen on that either. The fact that the dance we dance is danced to many different musical styles is not a special feature of the dance. As long as the time signature is suitable then you can dance any dance to any music.

Perhaps the answer is to educate. Jive is cleary alive and well. It's hardly an underground phenomenon so it seems a little surprising that the general public is not more aware that jive hasn't gone away and is being danced regularly by 1000s of people, to many different styles of music including the 'music' of the present day.

Then we could simply call it what it is.

bobgadjet
6th-January-2004, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
Modern Jive
French Jive
Free Jive
Pop Jive
Freestyle Jive

Any more to add? How about some that don't have 'jive' in the name?

Disco Jive
Upbeat Jive
Jivalsa

I would think that more of the younger persons being sought for todays dance scene are probaly more aware of what Salsa is, than Jive. They know at least that Salsa is danced to a Latin rythmn, but as said previously, "jive" with ANY name attachments, still gives a 40's - 50's image.

Making a new name for a dance that 1000's of dancers already know is a bit superfluous really. I think education through media exposure is probably the best way, unless a compilation of names already in use actually fits the bill.

Celerocitz perhaps ?

Will
6th-January-2004, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
I like the sound of the jive bit.
And how old are you??? :devil: (no offence - and hec, I'm no spring chicken either!). That does kind of make my point!

What we need is a name / image that is gonna get Ceroc / MJ done in Justin Timberlake videos for example, the same way you see Hip Hop, Street Jazz, and Salsa in that kind of thing...

Andy McGregor
6th-January-2004, 05:58 PM
Originally posted by Will
And how old are you??? :devil: (no offence - and hec, I'm no spring chicken either!). That does kind of make my point!


I am 47 but I'm still too young to have done jive in my youth. We all did muggle dancing at my youth club. Jive was my dad's era.

The reason I like the sound of jive is that is doesn't sound camp. But I agree that something with jive in it might not be popular with people under 55. Which is why my post went on to ask if anyone could think of something which didn't contain the word jive. The alternative is to call the dance Ceroc, the problem with calling it Ceroc is that nobody but Ceroc can do that.

So we need a universal name. And I'm suggesting a poll because I know that people think differently from me. And some people are more creative than me with language so they might come up with something that captures the imagination and sticks:waycool:

Dreadful Scathe
6th-January-2004, 06:23 PM
Whats wrong with Jive ? Thats what it is ! :confused:

"Flared Trousers" are still called the same thing and that still has connotations of the 70's to me, but clearly not to the people who wear them. Why should "jive" be any different.

Maybe we should rename "Lindy Hop" too that has connotations of 30's black and white films for me :).

Dr. Feelgood
6th-January-2004, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
Whats wrong with Jive ? Thats what it is ! :confused:
Exactly

:cheers:

bigdjiver
6th-January-2004, 06:54 PM
Roc Fusion?

Gus
6th-January-2004, 07:56 PM
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
Whats wrong with Jive ? Thats what it is ! :confused:


Not sure that I agree DS (by the way, not heard from you for a while :) ) Jive is in my minds eye a 50's style dance similar to R'n'R .... modern Ceroc is a synthesis of a very different feel incorporating moves (and styling) from Blues, Salsa, Swing etc. Modern Jive may have its roots in classic Jive, but its now a distant cousin than a close relation (IMO).

Martin
6th-January-2004, 10:44 PM
Certainly NOT French Jive:tears: :tears: Have you seen the French jive? :blush: It is very basic and a fair way off what is danced in the UK. It has come a LONG way since then.

How about English Jive - after all that's what it is, Jive developed in England

Other suggestions Dirty Latin Jive (Melbourne - not sure mainstream Ceroc is as "dirty" as those Melbournites though)

Mamboroc (Newcastle, Australia)

I actually like English Jive, after all that is where it was developed, the French do not say they are doing American jive do they?

Dance Demon
6th-January-2004, 10:59 PM
Why do some people have a phobia about the word "Jive"..?
The basic moves that we all do are jive moves. there may be more blues and latin styling creeping in to it, but it is still jive. A quick comparison.....Rugby Union as it is played today is very much different to how it was played 20 years ago, it has become a much more technical and tactical game. It is still called Rugby Union, despite the changes. Ceroc, Leroc etc were branded as French Jive, when I first started dancing. yes things have morphed a bit since then, and modern Jve is probably the best description of what we do IMHO

ChrisA
7th-January-2004, 01:39 AM
Heaven forbid we ever agree on a name.

We'd have hardly anything to argue about then :innocent:

Tiggerbabe
7th-January-2004, 01:52 AM
Originally posted by ChrisA
Heaven forbid we ever agree on a name.
Fair enough Chris :D

Originally posted by Martin
How about English Jive - after all that's what it is, Jive developed in England................./snip/
I actually like English Jive, after all that is where it was developed.............. the French do not say they are doing American jive do they?
First of all........NO!:rofl:
Secondly.....heard you the first time :D
Thirdly.........the French can say what they like, they have much better accents :wink:

Neil
7th-January-2004, 02:26 AM
Originally posted by Martin
How about English Jive Surely you mean British Jive? :)

Neil

Andy McGregor
7th-January-2004, 02:55 AM
Originally posted by Sheena


Thirdly.........the French can say what they like, they have much better accents :wink:

Not better than the Scottish accent in my opinion:waycool:

Will
7th-January-2004, 03:09 AM
I was thinking about this tonight, and I reckon that "JiveSalsa" or "SalsaJive" wouldn't be too bad as it is at least as accurate a description if not more so than "modern jive" in my opinion. It keeps the Jive name but the Salsa reference helps with the image. I'm sure there are other good ideas out there though...

Andy McGregor
7th-January-2004, 03:12 AM
Originally posted by Will
I was thinking about this tonight, and I reckon that "JiveSalsa" or "SalsaJive" wouldn't be too bad as it is at least as accurate a description if not more so than "modern jive" in my opinion. It keeps the Jive name but the Salsa reference helps with the image. I'm sure there are other good ideas out there though...

On the other hand we could just call it Salsa. There's more of us than there are of them so they'd have to just change their name:devil:

Martin
7th-January-2004, 04:18 AM
Originally posted by Sheena

First of all........NO!:rofl:
Secondly.....heard you the first time :D
Thirdly.........the French can say what they like, they have much better accents :wink: [/B]

Seems like a no then, Maybe ...
"English Jive (including those from slightly north of England who also do it too since it's beginings in London)"
Or is that name too long?

Well Neil had an idea...


Originally posted by Neil
Surely you mean British Jive? :)

Neil

Actually Neil I did not mean British Jive, but would not like to get fried from the "Mad crowd" :really: I have been warned not to upset them,:tears: so could go with British jive for the sake of a peaceful life
:blush: :blush:

Gadget
7th-January-2004, 09:33 AM
Originally posted by Martin
"English Jive "
:what: I thought that the whole idea was to attract more people and have a uniform banner for people to congregate under?

Englandshire already think they are the centre of the universe - we don't need to encourage it. :devil::wink:


I don't like the idea of confusing Salsa with Jive - OK it is a better known dance, but why should we have to steal notoriety from another style?

Andy McGregor
7th-January-2004, 10:06 AM
Originally posted by Gadget
:what: I thought that the whole idea was to attract more people and have a uniform banner for people to congregate under?

That's what I think too.

The thing that prompted me to mention the MJ/Ceroc thing was that Ceroc Plus is advertising that it teaches Modern Jive. Does this mean that all Ceroc classes are going to advertise that they teach Modern Jive too? If Ceroc start calling it MJ then that is probably what it will be called everywhere. But why would they do that when they've got a brand name?:confused:

So we're still playing the name game. Any more suggestions?

bobgadjet
7th-January-2004, 10:18 AM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
That's what I think too.


So we're still playing the name game. Any more suggestions?


Has "Salsaroc" been suggested?

Dreadful Scathe
7th-January-2004, 11:37 AM
I suggest 'FreeDance' - why hang onto all those old fashioned names like salsa, jive, ceroc and leroc they have evil connotations ;).

Dr. Feelgood
7th-January-2004, 12:07 PM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
That's The thing that prompted me to mention the MJ/Ceroc thing was that Ceroc Plus is advertising that it teaches Modern Jive. Does this mean that all Ceroc classes are going to advertise that they teach Modern Jive too? If Ceroc start calling it MJ then that is probably what it will be called everywhere. But why would they do that when they've got a brand name?:confused:


There's nothing new about Ceroc associating itself with the term "Modern Jive", at least in Scotland.

To quote an advertisement from 1995:

"Ceroc - The energetic, stylish form of modern jive from France"

JamesGeary
7th-January-2004, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by Andy McGregor
That's what I think too.

The thing that prompted me to mention the MJ/Ceroc thing was that Ceroc Plus is advertising that it teaches Modern Jive. Does this mean that all Ceroc classes are going to advertise that they teach Modern Jive too? If Ceroc start calling it MJ then that is probably what it will be called everywhere. But why would they do that when they've got a brand name?:confused:

So we're still playing the name game. Any more suggestions?

They probably just like the name modern jive. But it means that if they ever leave ceroc, or get dis-enfranchised, then it is remarkably easy for them to carry on their business. Which in turn makes it easier for them to run their business whatever way they want without sticking to all cerocs rules.

Lindsay
7th-January-2004, 02:16 PM
Ch**ky teaches Edinburgh Jive- wot's that?

Gadget
7th-January-2004, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by Dr. Feelgood
To quote an advertisement from 1995:

"Ceroc - The energetic, stylish form of modern jive from France"
I know that it's just playing with words, but isn't that just an abreviated description of what they are trying to teach? An energetic, stylish, modern form of jive? or An stylish form of modern, energetic jive? or A form of energetic, modern, stylish jive?
A descriptive term instead of a name?

Gadget
7th-January-2004, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by Lindsay
Ch**ky teaches Edinburgh Jive- wot's that?
Isn't that another name for "east coast swing"? Like "Glasgow Jive" is another name for WCS?

Dr. Feelgood
7th-January-2004, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by Lindsay
Ch**ky teaches Edinburgh Jive- wot's that?
He also does, or used to do, "Modern Salsa"...

Dr. Feelgood
7th-January-2004, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
Isn't that another name for "east coast swing"? Like "Glasgow Jive" is another name for WCS?
In this particular case "Edinburgh Jive" is just another name for the same dance - taught by Ceroc, LeRoc etc. etc. etc.

LilyB
7th-January-2004, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
. . . Like "Glasgow Jive" is another name for WCS? Actually, "Glasgow Jive" is not another name for West Coast Swing. From what I have seen, ie. Graham & Diane dancing what they call "Glasgow Jive", that in no way resembles WCS. :confused:

LilyB

Dreadful Scathe
7th-January-2004, 02:43 PM
Originally posted by Lindsay
Ch**ky teaches Edinburgh Jive- wot's that?

Cheeky ? Is that one of the cheeky girls ? :)

Thought he still called it LeRoc ? but you're right of course, just did a search on google for "Edinburgh Jive" and Cheeky came top of the list.


singing.....

ooo oooh oooohh!
cheeky cheeky
we r the cheeky dancers, we r the cheeky dancers
u r the cheeky dancers, u r the cheeky dancers x2
we never ever try to do this right
we never ever try to do this right
don't be shy, its ur night x2
ooo oooh oooohh
we r the cheeky dancers x2
u r the cheeky dancers x2
oh cheeky cheeky
we r the cheeky dancers........

Gadget
7th-January-2004, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by LilyB
Actually, "Glasgow Jive" is not another name for West Coast Swing. From what I have seen, ie. Graham & Diane dancing what they call "Glasgow Jive", that in no way resembles WCS. :confused:
Maybe that's east coast swing then? Don't ask me; my knowledge of such things pales into insignificance against yours.

Dance Demon
7th-January-2004, 06:47 PM
Glasgow Jive is not another name for WCS. it is a seperate dance altogether. Graham & Dianne tought West Coast Swing, ( with a kinda latin twist)and Graham tought Glasgow Jive with Jean. Glasgow Jive is a much more energetic dance, and is mostly danced to more R&R style music.
Chalky.refers to Edinburgh Jive on his promotional material, probably to attract more people to his classes. It is the same dance that he used to teach i.e. Leroc. ( along with his other fun :big wink: routines like the bus stop, tradgedy, the ketchup song)The modern salsa reference was probably because he taught it to modern latin music ie, Ricky Martin , Shaft, lou Bega etc, rather than to trad Cuban music.

PS as far as I know , Graham & Dianne no longer teach together.

Jon Brett
14th-January-2004, 03:39 PM
Ceroc wasn't first. James Cronin was a member of a dance group inspired by French Rock n Rollers, the French term for rock n Roll being "Le Roc".

Le Roc is a modified version of 50's RnR which French people were spotted doing in a night club (in France). apparently they wanted to jive 50's style but the music was too slow, so they changed it to suit.

On returning to the UK, the original Le Roc (& subsequently Ceroc) moves were nicked from ballroom latin & salsa.

The term "Le Roc" is not copyrightable as it is a general term meaning Rock n Roll, so when Mr Cronin started his dance classes, he changed the name to Ceroc (apparently short for C'est Roc).

I understand that Ceroc being a money maker was not in the spirit of the original dance troup who reckoned it should be more fun than anything, so that's what started the Leroc/Ceroc "war".

Ceroc is NOT the dance, it is the company. Strictly speaking, the dance is "French Rock n Roll", or "Le Roc". "modern Jive" was a phrase made up by Robert Austin (ex LeJive) long after Leroc & Ceroc were being franchised, and has since been adopted by most organisations.

And finally, yes, we are all jivers.

Cheers,

Jon Brett

Lounge Lizard
14th-January-2004, 03:42 PM
and a big welcome to jb

Franck
14th-January-2004, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by Jon Brett
the French term for rock n Roll being "Le Roc".

/snip/

Ceroc is NOT the dance, it is the company. Strictly speaking, the dance is "French Rock n Roll", or "Le Roc". Not arguing with your history lesson, as I wasn't there, and heard so many different versions from different people that I guess I'll never know for sure, but just wanted to make a quick correction.

The French Rock 'n Roll is not called le roc, it is called (le) rock!

Calling Ceroc or Modern Jive 'French Rock 'n Roll' would be misleading as the dance still taught across many venues in France is very different from all forms of Jive in the UK. There is a big emphasis on footwork and arm movements that simply doesn't exist here.

The only parallel I can make with the French version is what is danced by a majority of French people at clubs or dances, after taking only a few lessons (usually at after school clubs) and improvising happily :D

I agree that regardless of historical versions, Ceroc have 'nicked' moves and ideas from Salsa, Ballroom, Lindy hop, ballet, hip hop, swing and pretty much every other dance around, but the result is a very different dance to what it started as, and I would argue (though DavidB might disagree :wink: ) a proper dance (which I would rather call Ceroc than Modern Jive).

Will
14th-January-2004, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by Jon Brett
"modern Jive" was a phrase made up by Robert Austin (ex LeJive)
This is interesting. I knew that the term "Modern Jive" was coined long after Ceroc / Leroc was invented for political reasons, but I didn't know who by. Did Nicky Haslam have to give any cash or credit to Robert Austin when she used it in her company name?

You certainly seem to know alot about it Jon, (though other versions I've heard give a little more credit to Ceroc being different / unique from any previous form of Jive - call it le roc, french jive, etc.. that had been around at that time). When Kate told me you'd been around a long time, I thought she was just being rude! :wink:



And finally, yes, we are all jivers.

Speak for yourself! I'm a happily married man :what:

Will :cheers:

Andy McGregor
14th-January-2004, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by Jon Brett
Ceroc is NOT the dance, it is the company. Strictly speaking, the dance is "French Rock n Roll", or "Le Roc". "modern Jive" was a phrase made up by Robert Austin (ex LeJive) long after Leroc & Ceroc were being franchised, and has since been adopted by most organisations.


Welcome to the Forum JB, it's surprising what you see (through the smoke:devil: ) from behind those decks:waycool:

Robert Austin also told me he 'invented' the name 'modern jive'. I suppose someone had to.


Originally posted by Jon Brett
And finally, yes, we are all jivers.

Cheers,

Jon Brett

Correct, I've even seen JB dancing - he's really good too!

Dreadful Scathe
14th-January-2004, 04:59 PM
Originally posted by Will

Speak for yourself! I'm a happily married man :what:


He said jiver not swinger :)

bobgadjet
14th-January-2004, 05:39 PM
Originally posted by Jon Brett

And finally, yes, we are all jivers.

Cheers,

Jon Brett

So I'm FINALLY a Jiver, at least I know ! ! !
Some might argue tho !

Lory
14th-January-2004, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by Will


Speak for yourself! I'm a happily married man :what:

Will :cheers:
Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe
He said jiver not swinger :)

Who say's you can't be all 3?:rofl:

LilyB
15th-January-2004, 03:17 AM
Originally posted by Will
. . . I'm a happily married man :what:

Will :cheers: How come we weren't invited to the wedding???!!!:reallymad

LilyB