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Feelingpink
15th-June-2005, 12:07 AM
A few weeks ago, a bunch of forumites descended on the Greenwich Ceroc Party night, probably making up about a third or more of the attendees. It was a sold out night with good music (Toby WK & Dan Hudson) and room to dance (because of restricted numbers) and enough men to dance with (tickets sold to balance numbers). We forumites loved it. So far, so great.

So tonight I'm at a regular Greenwich Ceroc night (I've become a convert since it's half an hour door to door, the music is good, fun lessons, room to dance and nice people) and chat to one of the regulars about the same party night. She mutters darkly about a "bunch of ring-ins" (that'll be us forumites) who mostly danced within their own group and also about the "local" guys who were too intimidated to ask any of the "visiting" women to dance. She also disliked Toby's music (this, I happen to disagree with).

I think she has a point. It seemed that very few of us danced much outside "our own" but I wonder whether we have an obligation to, when "our own" makes up such a substantial proportion of an event and we are visiting? If we were moving to a new country, there would be the expectation that we learn the language, culture and integrate to some extent. Why not here? Is it right that we should make the regulars feel nervous? Another 'regular' woman I spoke to tonight said she thought it should work both ways - with 'regulars' asking 'visitors' to dance as well.

I also wonder if it would benefit us with a bit of cross-pollination? One of the regulars I danced with at the party night is now on the forum and promises to come to Jango, another couple (if not two couples) also might pop along (sorry Russell & Dan if it seems as if I'm pilfering your punters - I'm sure they can do two dance nights a week :devil: :hug: ). What do other people think?

PS The next Greenwich Party night is on August 20 and tickets are only been sold in boy/girl pairs ... and I need a "boy" to go with - any takers?

under par
15th-June-2005, 07:22 AM
It is a very good point you make, as one of the visiting crowd I recall dancing with many forumites and feeling well within my comfort zone.

I did and generally do venture out of that zone.

I asked many ladies to dance who where not known to me and several who where sat out a lot.

I'm not sure how common this is amongst all of us though!

David Bailey
15th-June-2005, 08:33 AM
I think she has a point.
:yeah: And :worthy: to you for raising this, it's an interesting question.

It could be that the whole forum social gathering thing is a victim of its own success - if you have a large group of friends descending on an event, it's likely they'll dance with each other more than "outsiders".

And the "outsiders" aren't stupid - they can feel the vibe, the body language, and will understandably resent that - the "Over paid, over sexed, over here" syndrome :)


It seemed that very few of us danced much outside "our own"
That's a shame. My personal approach is to not even consider a girl's forumetta-status when asking someone to dance - I generally don't know, nor do I care overmuch, whether my dance partner is on the forums or not, only whether I think we'll have a good dance together.

But I appreciate that approach may not work for most people, I'm just weird that way :grin:


Another 'regular' woman I spoke to tonight said she thought it should work both ways - with 'regulars' asking 'visitors' to dance as well.
Certainly, but I feel there's more onus on the away team in such a situation to not abuse the regulars' hospitality by ignoring them.

Lory
15th-June-2005, 09:19 AM
I'm not exactly the shy and retiring type but even I can find it quite intimidating to ask people I don't know, who are standing about, laughing and chatting with their mates. :blush:

I've often feel I might be seen as interrupting, or pushy or heaven forbid, thought of as hitting on someone's boyfriend, :what: you can never quite be sure what the dynamics are. :sick:

It's much easier if you can catch someone as they exit the floor, then, after dancing with him, ask if he could introduce you to some of his mates. :na:

So, what you've just described is exactly the same, just in reverse. 'we' turn up mob handed, all excited, chatting and laughing and totally unaware how we might appear to others, 'we're' just having a good time. :innocent:

It takes a brave and confident person to try to break into 'that circle' :cool:

SOOOO In the interest of harmony between the 'home team' and the 'away side,' I think the only way to over come this problem, is to have a few organised 'excuse me' dances, where everyone has to dance with a stranger and swap about. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

under par
15th-June-2005, 09:23 AM
SOOOO In the interest of harmony between the 'home team' and the 'away side,' I think the only way to over come this problem, is to have a few organised 'excuse me' dances, where everyone has to dance with a stranger and swap about. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:


With all this home and away team analogy (sp?) could we have a penalty shootout or golden goal to sort out any disagreements. :whistle:

Gojive
15th-June-2005, 09:52 AM
With all this home and away team analogy (sp?) could we have a penalty shootout or golden goal to sort out any disagreements. :whistle:

Look out for a net...she's a lovely dancer :na:

Divissima
15th-June-2005, 09:59 AM
So tonight I'm at a regular Greenwich Ceroc night (...) and chat to one of the regulars about the same party night. She mutters darkly about a "bunch of ring-ins" (that'll be us forumites) who mostly danced within their own group and also about the "local" guys who were too intimidated to ask any of the "visiting" women to dance. She also disliked Toby's music (this, I happen to disagree with).I can see the point you are making, FP. I can understand how, to the non-forum people, it seemed like we were a big gang, but I'm not really sure it's quite true. There were forumites there who I barely knew and had never danced with before (JiveP, for example). There were lots of other forumites there who didn't know each other. I know you made a point of going round asking as many men to dance as you could, whether on the forum or not. I didn't ask many men to dance :blush: but I certainly tried to be as polite, friendly and approachable as I could and danced with everyone who asked me. After a collision on the dancefloor (my fault) I made a point of going up to the non-forumite collidee and apologising fully - a few minutes later he asked me to dance and we had two lovely dances. I'm sure many other forumites also asked non-forumites to dance and accepted offers for dances from all-comers. The lady you spoke to obviously had a clear perception of 'us-and-them' from the night, but I'm not sure it's a balanced perception. Nevertheless, that is how she felt about the night, and she is entitled to her opinion. I'm not sure there's much we can do to prevent people from forming such perceptions - I think we are generally a friendly bunch who love to dance with our friends, and with new people too but ultimately we can't control how people perceive us. What we can do is make an effort to be friendly and integrate - and I think most of us already do (which is not to say that I/we couldn't do more). At the next Greenwich night (can't wait, by the way, can't wait! can't wait! :clap: ) I will make more of an effort to ask men who I do not know to dance, but I also want to dance with my friends. No matter how much effort we all make, I doubt there is any way to ensure that there won't be a single disaffected non-forumite - although, of course, it would be fantastic if everyone went away thinking we were all a lovely friendly bunch.

It is the same with the music - I know lots of people on the night thanked Toby for his set, and I'm sure there were others who agreed with the lady you spoke to - as all DJs (and organisers) on the forum know, no matter how much effort you make, you just can't keep everyone happy all of the time.

Clive Long
15th-June-2005, 10:03 AM
<< snip >>
So, what you've just described is exactly the same, just in reverse. 'we' turn up mob handed, all excited, chatting and laughing and totally unaware how we might appear to others, 'we're' just having a good time. :innocent:

It takes a brave and confident person to try to break into 'that circle' :cool:
<< snip >>

:yeah: :yeah:

I really think Lory has identified a "barrier" to "dance integration"

I remember seeing RK and ESG at Greenwich dancing with a number of ladies I believe were non-forumites / locals - and I am sure I put myself about - so, as has been covered elsewhere (I'm too lazy to find the link, although I now know how :D ) it's an individual responsibility to dance with new people - and you will find gems, as I did at Casbah last Friday - although the delights of encouraging a new dancer wear thin after the 4th dance with a tense / bouncy / uncoordinated / unrhythmical dance partner (old ground I know, I know).

Love, life and cod liver oil.

Clive

Lory
15th-June-2005, 10:25 AM
I've just thought of another thing

If you took say, 50 random 'forumite's' and 50 random 'nony's' (I just made that word up :D ) I think we'd find in general, the forumites will have some of the top players, have been on the scene longer, are probably generally better dancers and know more people.

We know, we're gonna have some real 'premier league' in there. :waycool:

So, just imagine how it must feel, if you been going to the same club every week and you've worked your way up to becoming one of the clubs 'top score's' :clap: and next minute, you've been relegated, :( talk about have your nose put out of joint! :tears:

Divissima
15th-June-2005, 10:32 AM
So, just imagine how it must feel, if you go to the same club every week and you were one of the clubs 'top score's' :clap: and next minute, you've been relegated, :( talk about have your nose put out of joint! :tears:I remember feeling precisely this way a few years ago with the arrival in my regular venue of some top-league lady dancers. I'm not terribly proud of it and I wish I could immediately have seen it as an opportunity to watch and learn (although I came to do so after time).

There will be some who get the 'nose-out-of-joint' feeling, but there will also be others who can immediately seize the opportunity to dance with new and good dancers, or to watch and learn.

Clive Long
15th-June-2005, 10:33 AM
... and I've just thought of another couple of things

I have vague recollections that when my mother and father went social dancing that there was always a "mixer" or two where the gentleman would ask a lady with whom (?) he had never (or rarely) danced.

... and ...

In my own experience at any dance venue I have been to: Finchley, Cheshunt, Twyford, Oxford, Kidlington, HurstpierPoint, Greenwich etc. (apart from small areas near the stage of Hammersmith and South Ken :whistle: ) - that the majority of people present are open and welcoming - which is why I'm comfortable, nay look forward, going to any venue. Thinking about it, it's that single feature that has kept me going dancing for, well, longer than I wish to admit.

Clive

under par
15th-June-2005, 10:50 AM
I've just thought of another thing


We know, we're gonna have some real 'premier league' in there. :waycool:

snip>> same club every week and you've worked your way up to becoming one of the clubs 'top score's' :clap: and next minute, you've been relegated,


:worthy: you could get the GOLDEN BOOT for that many scores between posts :worthy:

David Bailey
15th-June-2005, 11:03 AM
The lady you spoke to obviously had a clear perception of 'us-and-them' from the night, but I'm not sure it's a balanced perception. Nevertheless, that is how she felt about the night, and she is entitled to her opinion.
:yeah:
It's not even relevant if this opinion was "correct" or not - if she feels that way, she feels that way. And if she's representative - if other people feel that way - to me that's a problem.


I think we are generally a friendly bunch who love to dance with our friends
Hey, speak for yourself - I'm a miserable bugger, ask anyone....


No matter how much effort we all make, I doubt there is any way to ensure that there won't be a single disaffected non-forumite - although, of course, it would be fantastic if everyone went away thinking we were all a lovely friendly bunch.
Possibly a little less clumping in groups would help, and a bit more individual mingling?


It is the same with the music
I'm not concerned about that comment - you always get differences of opinion, you can't please all the people etc.


If you took say, 50 random 'forumite's' and 50 random 'nony's' (I just made that word up :D ) I think we'd find in general, the forumites will have some of the top players, have been on the scene longer, are probably generally better dancers and know more people.
Hmmm... I'm not totally convinced on the first three. It's easy to develop blinkered vision about how representative the forum is of dancers in general. And this especially applies to the "actively social" members of the forum.

Being actively social does of course make you a lovely person :flower: , but doesn't AFAIK make you a better dancer.

There are some awesome, gob-smackingly good, stylish and sexy dancers out there, many of whom have never even heard of the forums (amazingly enough :) ). They just happen to be sh*t-hot dancers.

Fair enough, I think the fact that a lot of the main posters are also involved in the business in some way "skews" the ability curve, but apart from that, I really dunno. Talking about dancing isn't dancing. Although it's a good substitute :)

Andreas
15th-June-2005, 11:24 AM
She mutters darkly about a "bunch of ring-ins" (that'll be us forumites) who mostly danced within their own group ...

All that means is SHE did not bother asking any of the new guys and was annoyed that none of them made the way across. Whose fault is it?


... and also about the "local" guys who were too intimidated to ask any of the "visiting" women to dance.

That is a bit of an issue but again, everyone is free to ask. Lack of self confidence can be improved by being asked by a good dancer but can hardly be blamed on good dancers nnot asking.


Her points are worth considering but not worth losing sleep over.

Russell Saxby
15th-June-2005, 01:48 PM
She mutters darkly about a "bunch of ring-ins" (that'll be us forumites) who mostly danced within their own group PS The next Greenwich Party night is on August 20 and tickets are only been sold in boy/girl pairs ... and I need a "boy" to go with - any takers?

Naughty, naughty forumites - I will have dance cards printed for the next one, and I expect to see at least half the names to be non-forumites :whistle:



One of the regulars I danced with at the party night is now on the forum and promises to come to Jango, another couple (if not two couples) also might pop along (sorry Russell & Dan if it seems as if I'm pilfering your punters - I'm sure they can do two dance nights a week :devil: :hug: ).

No complaints from me. A bit of cross-pollination is a good thing (is that a word????)



PS The next Greenwich Party night is on August 20 and tickets are only been sold in boy/girl pairs ...

Still trying to decide if this is a good idea or not, :confused: but we do have plenty of time, so happy to try selling as pairs for a few weeks, if this doesn't work, we will open it up.

Having said that they have started to sell, so it can't be all bad. Get in quick, all begging texts and emails received during August will be deleted without guilt :devil:



... and I need a "boy" to go with - any takers?

Will you be vetting all applications???? Can I apply???

Lory
15th-June-2005, 02:04 PM
Will you be vetting all applications???? Can I apply???
Well if FP doesn't want you, can I have you? :devil: :D

stewart38
15th-June-2005, 02:06 PM
why has my post been taken out :what:

LMC
15th-June-2005, 02:11 PM
So, what you've just described is exactly the same, just in reverse. 'we' turn up mob handed, all excited, chatting and laughing and totally unaware how we might appear to others, 'we're' just having a good time. :innocent:

It takes a brave and confident person to try to break into 'that circle' :cool:



Yeah, but that's life/human nature. This thread strikes me as a bit "paranoid" to be honest (and I am the WORST for over-analysing things to death normally).

Andreas
15th-June-2005, 03:29 PM
Yeah, but that's life/human nature. This thread strikes me as a bit "paranoid" to be honest (and I am the WORST for over-analysing things to death normally).

That is a matter of how you look at it. I would not call it paranoid because the feedback came from an outsider, only been relayed by FP.

If a big group of better (?) dancers 'takes over' a place it can be very intimidating to the locals. And people should be aware of it.

As I said in an earlier post, it is nothing to worry too much about but certainly something to be aware of.

stewart38
15th-June-2005, 03:48 PM
That is a matter of how you look at it. I would not call it paranoid because the feedback came from an outsider, only been relayed by FP.

If a big group of better (?) dancers 'takes over' a place it can be very intimidating to the locals. And people should be aware of it.

As I said in an earlier post, it is nothing to worry too much about but certainly something to be aware of.


Agree now lets all descend on Ashtons wearing yellow shirts with 'im better then you'

LMC
15th-June-2005, 04:14 PM
If a big group of better (?) dancers 'takes over' a place it can be very intimidating to the locals. And people should be aware of it.

Agree, I wasn't making myself very clear. But my comment below about why shouldn't a group go out and have fun stands - just maybe not too frequently at the same venue



As I said in an earlier post, it is nothing to worry too much about but certainly something to be aware of.

Agree there too, sorry, missed that bit somehow :blush:

And sorry to change the order of your post, but here's the argumentative bit:


That is a matter of how you look at it. I would not call it paranoid because the feedback came from an outsider, only been relayed by FP.

I was mentally comparing it to going for a quiet meal out a deux to find that there is a good-humoured but noisy party at the next table. Not quite the same I know, but some of the psychology applies: as long as the group is NOT being intimidating, why shouldn't they go out and have a good time as a group? Taking it further, in a ceroc venue, as long as they are not being exclusive and refusing to dance with 'non-group' people, then I would say that if "outsiders" are feeling "intimidated" enough to whine about a 'one off' several weeks later then it is their problem and not the group's.


Agree now lets all descend on Ashtons wearing yellow shirts with 'im better then you'

Can I have the red option which says "I'm worse than you, please take pity on me?"

bigdjiver
15th-June-2005, 06:17 PM
:devil: This crowd came in, could dance a bit, except that they suffered from intermittent paralysis in the middle of a track, and occassionally started twitching instead of dancing. Odd thing was that they seemed to think that they were doing it better. Didn't they see the "CEROC" sign? :devil:

LMC
15th-June-2005, 07:09 PM
:devil: This crowd came in... < snip > and occassionally started twitching instead of dancing. < snip>

Aren't there better places to go bird-watching? :innocent:

Gadget
15th-June-2005, 08:36 PM
Depends on the 'birds' :innocent:

Andreas
15th-June-2005, 10:26 PM
Agree now lets all descend on Ashtons wearing yellow shirts with 'im better then you'

I'd also go with the red option. :rofl:

It is quite an interesting idea. Makes you wonder what people would look out for when searching a particular dancer. They no longer use simple elimination tactics by sorting people by colour of clothes :D


I was mentally comparing it to going for a quiet meal out a deux to find that there is a good-humoured but noisy party at the next table. Not quite the same I know, but some of the psychology applies: as long as the group is NOT being intimidating, why shouldn't they go out and have a good time as a group? Taking it further, in a ceroc venue, as long as they are not being exclusive and refusing to dance with 'non-group' people, then I would say that if "outsiders" are feeling "intimidated" enough to whine about a 'one off' several weeks later then it is their problem and not the group's.


I agree. As I mentioned before, it all comes down to 'who do YOU blame that YOU did not have the courage to ask'. It is totally understandable that a group of friends goes out for a dance will also want to dance among themselves. And for as long as they don't make that a reason to decline others that ask for a dance - nothing wrong with it.

:flower:

LMC
15th-June-2005, 10:35 PM
As I mentioned before, it all comes down to 'who do YOU blame that YOU did not have the courage to ask'.


You did, I'm just not as polite as you are :D


Depends on the 'birds' :innocent:

I was going to say aren't there better places for an ornithologists convention, but that didn't have so much "potential".....

RogerR
15th-June-2005, 10:46 PM
In the centre of a metropolis the crowd will often be people from work, the session will end in time for reasonable commute home. people will likely NOT have their life partner with them so will dance around more than suburban or small town dances. Which start later after the punters have gone home, showered, and fed. At a provincial group the people attend in couples and often resent being asked to dance by an incomer.

Daisy
15th-June-2005, 11:56 PM
Why is it that some people seem to resent it when a bunch of friends, who just happen to be decent dancers, turn up to a venue together & have a good time? :rolleyes:

Are they jealous that they can't dance as well as the interlopers? :angry:

Are the miffed that they arn't being asked to dance by the regular dancers, cos they are having a dance with some new blood? :sick:

Are they miffed that the new dancers are not forming an orderly queue to dance with them? :whistle:

As far as I can remember I was always ecstatic when new, good dancers turned up at a venue we were at cos it gave us an opportunity to watch, learn and make new aquaintances and even become friends! :nice: See it as a positive experience.

:hug:

djtrev
16th-June-2005, 12:35 AM
At the risk of getting neg.rep;if you were at Southport did you not get the feeling that the area around the bar in the Blues Room was definately an exclusion zone.Much as I enjoyed watching and listening;heaven forbid that I should have the nerve to ask one of them to dance;I found it very much a closed area to the 'rank and file'
Or have I got it wrong again!!!

frodo
16th-June-2005, 12:53 AM
Why is it that some people seem to resent it when a bunch of friends, who just happen to be decent dancers, turn up to a venue together & have a good time? :rolleyes:

Are they jealous that they can't dance as well as the interlopers? :angry:

Are the miffed that they arn't being asked to dance by the regular dancers, cos they are having a dance with some new blood? :sick:

Are they miffed that the new dancers are not forming an orderly queue to dance with them? :whistle:

As far as I can remember I was always ecstatic when new, good dancers turned up at a venue we were at cos it gave us an opportunity to watch, learn and make new aquaintances and even become friends! :nice: See it as a positive experience.

:hug:

It does seem pretty understandable. There is a difference between a few good dancers who don't change the character of a place the locals know and presumably like, and a large number. Especially if they seem to bring strange music with them.

It perhaps could be considered that advanced incoming dancers are effectively doing another type of dance entirely. They like and look for different things. 'Good' dancing for one group may not equate to good dancing for another.

Consider if a favourite venue was invaded by large numbers of Country and Western dancers, doing an unknown form of dance ( and they brought their music with them ).

bigdjiver
16th-June-2005, 06:48 AM
It does seem pretty understandable. There is a difference between a few good dancers who don't change the character of a place the locals know and presumably like, and a large number. Especially if they seem to bring strange music with them.

It perhaps could be considered that advanced incoming dancers are effectively doing another type of dance entirely. They like and look for different things. 'Good' dancing for one group may not equate to good dancing for another.

Consider if a favourite venue was invaded by large numbers of Country and Western dancers, doing an unknown form of dance ( and they brought their music with them ). :yeah: I still do not understand why my more obscure rendering of the same argument generated a comment about bird-watching.

Some venues treasure their "everybody knows everybody, everybody dances with everybody" ethos, others have their own cliques. In either case nomadic bands of "Hotshots" can expect a mixed reception. I sometimes attend venues where strangers not wearing beginner stickers tend to be isolated. It can appear rude to walk past someone you know to ask a stranger to dance.

David Bailey
16th-June-2005, 08:20 AM
Why is it that some people seem to resent it when a bunch of friends, who just happen to be decent dancers, turn up to a venue together & have a good time? :rolleyes:
Well, for yet another analogy, think of a crowd of local football club supporters, being "invaded" by a group of Japanese tourists at an important match, wearing all the club colours, knowing all the club songs, fanatical about the club performance, but sticking to themselves and hogging all the best places to view the action. As a local, you might well feel a little aggrieved by this behaviour?



Are they jealous that they can't dance as well as the interlopers? :angry:
Yep, as we all are. Anyone not jealous at some time or other is not human.


Are they miffed that the new dancers are not forming an orderly queue to dance with them? :whistle:
Yes, disorderly queues are just sooo annoying.



As far as I can remember I was always ecstatic when new, good dancers turned up at a venue we were at cos it gave us an opportunity to watch, learn and make new aquaintances and even become friends!
Totally agree, on an individual basis. But on a group basis, no, especially if that group stays together and makes it difficult for "regulars" to break into the group.

I'm also still skeptical about the difference in relative abilities of the two groups, but I don't believe that matters. What matters is if there were two different groups.

under par
16th-June-2005, 08:29 AM
At the risk of getting neg.rep;if you were at Southport did you not get the feeling that the area around the bar in the Blues Room was definately an exclusion zone.Much as I enjoyed watching and listening;heaven forbid that I should have the nerve to ask one of them to dance;I found it very much a closed area to the 'rank and file'
Or have I got it wrong again!!!

Definitely got it wrong there Djtrev.

Ask and you will receive!

It was the music driving the dancing not the dancers commanding the floor.

I have never danced with so many new faces as I did on all 3 nights in the blues bar area, so you definition of"rank and file" does not exist IMHO.

I can only say that it was the bar area, it was well lit, it was a small area in comparison to the other rooms and it was a bit of a squeeze to dance at times, there was lots of seating around and lots did sit and watch probabaly making it more of an amphitheatre and possibly more intimidating than the other rooms.But it was so so so friendly! :flower:

But the music WOW! It was always challenging, moody sometimes sublime.

I found itdifficult to sit down and hardly missed a track.(except whilst waiting for drinks at bar occasionally)

Thanks to LL, DD, Trampy, Marc, Paul Amos and anybody else I missed out :worthy: :worthy:


PS no neg rep from me either you make a valid observation.

MartinHarper
16th-June-2005, 09:27 AM
On a group basis, no, especially if that group stays together and makes it difficult for "regulars" to break into the group.

Nod.
One thing I notice is eye contact - if a group never makes eye contact outside their immediate circle, it tends to imply that they are uninterested in all those they don't know. Also, closed circles send a clear "do not disturb" message, whereas open circles appear more friendly.

Like trev, I found parts of the Blues room intimidating at times - though I'd put that down to the quality of the dancing rather than anything negative in the attitude of the dancers.

Daisy
16th-June-2005, 10:14 AM
Totally agree, on an individual basis. But on a group basis, no, especially if that group stays together and makes it difficult for "regulars" to break into the group.

Nobody deliberately makes it 'difficult' for anyone to break into anything at any of these dances! :confused:

If they want to dance, just ask. How hard can it be. :whistle:

David Bailey
16th-June-2005, 10:35 AM
Nobody deliberately makes it 'difficult' for anyone to break into anything at any of these dances! :confused:

If they want to dance, just ask. How hard can it be. :whistle:
Actually, very hard, if you're all visibly in a group. The study of group dynamics is a weird and wonderful thing - if you're interested, here's a couple of links: Link 1 (http://www.mapnp.org/library/grp_skll/theory/theory.htm) and Link 2 (http://www.wilderdom.com/Group.html).

I'm no expert, but I know that the bahaviour, reactions and responses of a group is different to those of the individuals in a group. And this behaviour is pretty much unconscious - you have to make a real effort to break out of the group sometimes and do your own thing.

Certainly, I'm not accusing anyone of conscious Evil Excluding Groupism; but perceptions of "groups", "elites", etc. do very much exist in Ceroc (just look at all the threads about this topic). I'd hope we should all make an effort to avoid generating such perceptions. And achieve World Peace whilst we're at it :)

On a personal note, as an OAP (Officially Antisocial Person), I don't do groups, so this is all academic to me anyway :innocent:

Lou
16th-June-2005, 10:54 AM
On a personal note, as an OAP (Officially Antisocial Person), I don't do groups, so this is all academic to me anyway :innocent:
As another self confessed OAP, can I join your group?

Oh, wait..... just one problem with that idea.... :whistle:

David Bailey
16th-June-2005, 10:59 AM
As another self confessed OAP, can I join your group?

Oh, wait..... just one problem with that idea.... :whistle:
:rofl:
Certainly, please join the Anti-Group Gender-Confused Group, or AGGCG (there's an acronym to conquer the world with).

Lory
16th-June-2005, 11:48 AM
Definitely got it wrong there Djtrev.

Yes, I'm afraid I have to agree with Underpar here Trev, I danced all over the place, including the bar area and I'm certainly not one of the elite but I never felt an unfriendly or un-welcoming vibe either. :clap:

I didn't ask Jordan to dance, simply cos I don't know enough WCS, not cos I felt intimidated by the fact he's a great dancer. ;)

I actually felt privileged to be able to witness some of the really good guys freestyling together, a bonus I didn't have to pay extra for. :worthy: :cheers:

and to be honest, I felt sorry for Jorden and Tatiana, cos they couldn't just have a normal dance, I'm sure they felt slightly embarrassed, that every time they got up to have a dance, people around them stopped dancing and formed a crowd. :blush:

I met Tatiana outside, looking totally shattered and she said, I'm soo tired, I can't even face dancing tonight. :tears:


Like trev, I found parts of the Blues room intimidating at times - though I'd put that down to the quality of the dancing rather than anything negative in the attitude of the dancers.
Martin, you danced with me, in that VERY SPOT didn't you? :wink:





Totally agree, on an individual basis. But on a group basis, no, especially if that group stays together and makes it difficult for "regulars" to break into the group.


So here's an analogy.... say for instance, I'm a good dancer, I'm away from home on business and I fancy a night of dancing, it's OK with you if I go to the local venue on my own but I can't arrange to meet up with 'peter, paul and sheila from the forum', (all good dancers) who I haven't seen for ages and just happen to be in the area on the same night too :confused:

This thread's making me sad and paranoid. :( :sick: :blush: :rolleyes:

David Bailey
16th-June-2005, 12:13 PM
say for instance, I'm a good dancer
OK; "you're a good dancer" :grin: (You are, really you are, I just couldn't resist, sorry)


it's OK with you if I go to the local venue on my own but I can't arrange to meet up with 'peter, paul and sheila from the forum', (all good dancers) who I haven't seen for ages and just happen to be in the area on the same night too :confused:
Hey, anything you do is OK with me :flower:

But if you arrange to meet 30-40 people, out of, say 200 or so, and spend time talking and dancing mainly within those 30-40 people, you are creating a grouping pretty much by definition.


This thread's making me sad and paranoid.
Well then, my work here is done... :innocent:

FWIW, I'm not too bothered by groupings; I'm big enough (metaphorically speaking!), confident enough (relatively speaking) and ugly enough (literally speaking) to take care of myself most of the time. But group dynamics of these sort do exist, and people should be aware of them.

Making an effort to reach out from a group is, I believe, quite healthy, and more in the spirit of Ceroc (dance with anyone, anywhere, any level, any time) than staying within the same group. However, I'm biased, being an OAP and all, so don't listen to me.

MartinHarper
16th-June-2005, 01:05 PM
Martin, you danced with me, in that VERY SPOT didn't you? :wink:

Didn't stop me being intimidated. :)
One of my partners (can't remember who) asked me "can we dance a little further away from Viktor, please?", so I guess it wasn't just me who felt a little out of place.

stewart38
16th-June-2005, 02:37 PM
Yes, I'm afraid I have to agree with Underpar here Trev, I danced all over the place, including the bar area and I'm certainly not one of the elite but I never felt an unfriendly or un-welcoming vibe either. :clap:

I felt sorry for Jorden and Tatiana, cos they couldn't just have a normal dance, I'm sure they felt slightly embarrassed, that every time they got up to have a dance, people around them stopped dancing and formed a crowd. :blush:

I met Tatiana outside, looking totally shattered and she said, I'm soo tired, I can't even face dancing tonight. :tears:


Martin, you danced with me, in that VERY SPOT didn't you? :wink:



( :sick: :blush: :rolleyes:

Yes felt no exclusion zone anywhere in fact I think I was turned down 2 times the whole weekend and then think they were genuinely tired or just nauseated by the sight of me

I to stopped and watched some of the ‘giants’ dance, although I would usually agree its not good to do so, although I didn’t clap !

Cruella
16th-June-2005, 06:19 PM
At the risk of getting neg.rep;if you were at Southport did you not get the feeling that the area around the bar in the Blues Room was definately an exclusion zone.Much as I enjoyed watching and listening;heaven forbid that I should have the nerve to ask one of them to dance;I found it very much a closed area to the 'rank and file'
Or have I got it wrong again!!!

Yes you have definately got it wrong. Yes there were some great dancers in there, for me that was part of the draw because sometimes we want to dance with people that are better dancers than ourselves. I didn't feel excluded at all in fact found everyone very friendly and welcoming. :hug: Also it was the only room where you didn't start sweating as soon as you walked into it. :whistle:

Minnie M
16th-June-2005, 06:54 PM
On a personal note, as an OAP (Officially Antisocial Person)..
does that make me an OAP OAP :rofl:

David Bailey
16th-June-2005, 08:34 PM
does that make me an OAP OAP :rofl:
I very much doubt you'd fit into the anti-social group (:) ), and of course we wouln't want you anyway :grin:

Daisy
16th-June-2005, 09:01 PM
I can't recall a time when a group of 30 - 40 good dancers or otherwise have all turned up, en-mass to a freestyle event ever, unless it was a weekender!

I can't ever remember a group bringing along their own music, especially music that no-one else could dance to either!

I have never seen such a group at a freestyle stick exclusively to themselves to the exclusion of anyone else

I have never seen such a group dance exclusively with only one another for the entire night!

As far a Greenwich is concerned there may have been a number of 'good' dancers, who are friends with the venue organisers and the visiting DJ who came along to lend their support and make it a great evening, which it was, and what is more we will probably go again.

As Lory says, why should it be wrong to go along to a freestyle, with your friends, who just happen to be good dancers, and have a good time with each other?

I'm losing the will to live where this kind of topic is concerned.......live & let live for goodness sake.

Minnie M
16th-June-2005, 09:01 PM
I very much doubt you'd fit into the anti-social group (:) ), and of course we wouln't want you anyway :grin:
Wanna be in your group too, I like to be part of ALL groups :tears: OK one out of two ain't bad :flower:

MartinHarper
17th-June-2005, 12:22 AM
Why should it be wrong to go along to a freestyle, with your friends, who just happen to be good dancers, and have a good time with each other?

In many ways we are still very territorial creatures. Many folks consider that when they venture further afield, they are "guests" of those who are regulars at that venue (the "hosts"), and vica versa. That attitude implies certain responsibilities on both guests and hosts, just as at a dinner party. This is a good culture to have, as it leads to a venue that is friendly to beginners and visitors. This often goes along with a sense of ownership amongst regulars, who may have recruited friends when numbers were low, spent time as a taxi dancer or demo, helped arrange local events, and so forth.

This applies to far more than dancing, incidentally - perhaps the most striking example is tourism.

David Bailey
17th-June-2005, 09:16 AM
This applies to far more than dancing, incidentally - perhaps the most striking example is tourism.
Well, I still prefer my football analogy, but I do like the idea of Forumites and Forumettas putting their towels down first and grabbing all the best spots... :)


Wanna be in your group too, I like to be part of ALL groups :tears: OK one out of two ain't bad :flower:
:rofl: I suspect your missing the point of the Anti-Social Group here, young Minnie person... :devil:

bigdjiver
17th-June-2005, 09:54 AM
We all know who and how we are, it takes someone else to tell us how we are perceived.

The regulars at a venue will quickly pick out new faces. If a group of 5 or more friends agree to meet up at a venue they will naturally form a little huddle, probably displaying almost a complete circle of backs to the rest of the venue. They will rapidly be identified as a group. It is very difficult to walk away from a regular partner to dance with a stranger, so the guys will tend ask the ladies in the group to dance first, and will spend much of the early part of the evening dancing with them. Any spare ladies will probably huddle, catching up with the news, and it seems rude for a local guy to break into such a group to ask for a dance.

If this group dance differently from the locals, then the early impression is that they are "not one of us". The DJ may well recognise them, and play some of "their" music. The locals may find that challenging, and will at least recognise it as unusual, and will notice that the "invaders" are relishing it. The locals will also notice that the new group are good dancers, and any hint that they think they are "better" will be picked up.

What we have here is a common scenario, with perfectly normal and acceptable behaviour giving the first impression of being an invasion of a group of exclusive "hotshots". Once so identified and "boxed" the locals are likely to persist with that view despite later evidence of mingling.

The "invaders" are perfectly entitled to think that any such wrong initial view of them is the problem of the locals, or they could accept that such a perception is natural, and undesirable.

I do not like pointing out problems without suggesting solutions. Perhaps, quite early in the proceedings, once the group has swapped the important news, someone could take the initiative and say "We are looking like a clique, bomburst!" At which point everybody in the group splits off on their own to ask someone outside the group to dance.

Clive Long
17th-June-2005, 11:52 AM
We all know who and how we are,

Speak for yourself ...


it takes someone else to tell us how we are perceived.

Ah, a wise man ...

Clive

Banana Man
17th-June-2005, 01:22 PM
SOOOO In the interest of harmony between the 'home team' and the 'away side,' I think the only way to over come this problem, is to have a few organised 'excuse me' dances, where everyone has to dance with a stranger and swap about. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:
:yeah:
Joseph Sewell always does this at Bojangles Jive. It's a new venue this year, so it's a great way to get both experienced and new dancers to mingle. The only down side is he usually uses the same tunes to mingle to each week.

I haven't been to Greenwich, but I did get down to Charlton before Christmas. I thought the atmosphere was great, but I think FP might have a point. If it's a ticket only event and not all the locals get in then a large contingent of strangers may be resented.

Having said that I don't think there's anything wrong with a group of friends going dancing and only dancing with each other; they've paid their money, they are comfortable with each others' company and dancing and maybe don't want to interact outside the group. Other dancers may have different agendas, they may want to mix more to try different styles, they may be looking to improve leading or following skills by dancing with strangers.

I like to see new people at the venues I go to, some stay and add to local vibe - like FP at Greenwich, some are only visiting. It's also great to see some of the names and watch some fab dancers in action.

Personally I think some people take the whole thing far too seriously, it's dance, it's meant to be enjoyable. For me it's a great way to switch off and relax.

David Bailey
17th-June-2005, 02:39 PM
Perhaps, quite early in the proceedings, once the group has swapped the important news, someone could take the initiative and say "We are looking like a clique, bomburst!" At which point everybody in the group splits off on their own to ask someone outside the group to dance.
I love that name and idea :clap: - great imagery :)

Gojive
17th-June-2005, 05:16 PM
I do not like pointing out problems without suggesting solutions. Perhaps, quite early in the proceedings, once the group has swapped the important news, someone could take the initiative and say "We are looking like a clique, bomburst!" At which point everybody in the group splits off on their own to ask someone outside the group to dance.

Hmmm....what a great idea for a bit of fun :D . Anyone up for a trial run at MJC next weekend? :waycool:

Purple Sparkler
17th-June-2005, 05:33 PM
Hmmm....what a great idea for a bit of fun :D . Anyone up for a trial run at MJC next weekend? :waycool:

I am. But can we make it a Turtle Club? We bomburst, but (see the Jokes thread for the dare this comes from), we can still go up to other members and say "Are you a member of the Ceroc Forum?" and their response must be a yelled "YOU BET YOUR ASS I AM?"

:sick:

It's been a long day.

Gojive
17th-June-2005, 05:43 PM
I am. But can we make it a Turtle Club? We bomburst, but (see the Jokes thread for the dare this comes from), we can still go up to other members and say "Are you a member of the Ceroc Forum?" and their response must be a yelled "YOU BET YOUR ASS I AM?"

:sick:

It's been a long day.

I'm up for anything, so long as I remain clothed in public! ;)

djtrev
17th-June-2005, 10:05 PM
Rather than walk away with my tail between my legs I will pursue my original observation.
Quote from Lory
If you took say, 50 random 'forumite's' and 50 random 'nony's' (I just made that word up ) I think we'd find in general, the forumites will have some of the top players, have been on the scene longer, are probably generally better dancers and know more people.

We know, we're gonna have some real 'premier league' in there

That is exactly how it appeared to me.
Over the three days the blues area was taken over by predominantly "forumites";The teachers and 'premier league' were mainly in the bar and the forumites were in the seating area.The forum was even given the opportunity to hold an exclusive reception in the blues area,even to the point of putting a class back to almost midnight to accomodate it.I believe ZW even managed to persuade John and Wes to give TWK a slot in the latin room on Sunday night.While I agree that this added to the general enjoyment of the weekend is it not a bit arrogant of us to think and even expect that we can influence how a weekend is organised
As a relative newcomer to the forum and weekenders it struck me that the majority of the forum were reasonably familier with each other so the chances of the likes of Underpar or Lory standing on the sidelines waiting for a partner for any length of time was highly remote.In the main ballroom it was not unusual to be asked by complete strangers to dance but in the blues room,apart from the Forum possee(you lovely ladies know who you are) I was not asked by one single stranger to dance.

Quote from Underpar
But the music WOW! It was always challenging, moody sometimes sublime.

I agree completely and one would assume that all those people who were stood on the sidelines felt the same way.So why didn't they get up there and dance.I personnally think they felt that they didn't 'belong'.

Please dont look at this as a criticism or an attack on the forum in general;it is merely an observation.

Quote from Daisy
I'm losing the will to live where this kind of topic is concerned.......live & let live for goodness sake.

Sorry Daisy but I'm getting paranoid about this.I am fed up with being on the outside I want to be on the inside,I want to be part of the crowd,I want to be able to dance like the big boys,but I can't,I hate standing and watching,its bl***y frustrating,I want to be having the same fun they are having.

jivecat
17th-June-2005, 11:01 PM
Over the three days the blues area was taken over by predominantly "forumites";The teachers and 'premier league' were mainly in the bar and the forumites were in the seating area.



I really enjoyed being in the blues room and spent much of the weekend there. But without really thinking about it I did avoid the area next to the bar. The unconscious reasons probably were
*It seemed to be a bit of a thoroughfare.
*It seemed to be populated by the "creme de la creme" and I didn't want to take the risk of asking anyone to dance down there.
*It was very much a "goldfish bowl" with lots of spectators, even more than the upper blues area.


So why didn't they get up there and dance.I personnally think they felt that they didn't 'belong'.

I have a friend who refuses to go anywhere near the blues room, despite being a blues musician, because he says he "is not good enough". He quite definitely feels he doesn't "belong", and won't be persuaded otherwise.



Sorry Daisy but I'm getting paranoid about this.I am fed up with being on the outside I want to be on the inside,I want to be part of the crowd,I want to be able to dance like the big boys,but I can't,I hate standing and watching,its bl***y frustrating,I want to be having the same fun they are having.

Thanks for this brilliant bit of posting, DJ Trev. Just one of the things I like about MJ is that after half a lifetime of wanting to have the same fun as everyone else seemed to be having, when I'm having a really good dance night, I know I AM having the same fun as everyone else. Or rather, I don't even notice whether everyone else is having fun (except for my dance partners, of course) because I'm at the epicentre of my own personal world of fun.

Sorry, DJ Trev, this is of no help to you. All I can say is that "having fun" or "belonging" are sometimes merely a matter of attitude and illusion. If you were on that floor, dancing, then other people on the sidelines would assume unquestioningly that you were part of that world just because you had the confidence to get up and participate, and might, in their turn, be faintly envious of you.

Daisy
17th-June-2005, 11:48 PM
Sorry, DJ Trev, this is of no help to you. All I can say is that "having fun" or "belonging" are sometimes merely a matter of attitude and illusion. If you were on that floor, dancing, then other people on the sidelines would assume unquestioningly that you were part of that world just because you had the confidence to get up and participate, and might, in their turn, be faintly envious of you.

:yeah:

djtrev
18th-June-2005, 12:18 AM
Sorry Jivecat and Daisy,I didnt make my point very well there.Believe me I have fun when I take to the floor and dance,as in deed I did, but in this case what I was trying to say was that in the blues room at southport the dancers there had progressed not only beyond my MJ standard but also they were doing;I believe;WCS and as I have never been taught WCS I felt very reluctant to ask anyone to dance.I didnt really feel comfortable asking somebody to "come down" to my MJ level when it seemed that they might be looking at something slightly more challenging.

Lynn
18th-June-2005, 12:47 AM
but in this case what I was trying to say was that in the blues room at southport the dancers there had progressed not only beyond my MJ standard but also they were doing;I believe;WCS and as I have never been taught WCS I felt very reluctant to ask anyone to dance.I didnt really feel comfortable asking somebody to "come down" to my MJ level when it seemed that they might be looking at something slightly more challenging. I can understand what you mean. The first time I was at Southport I stood at the edge of the blues room watching - hoping no-one would ask me up as I didn't know what I was doing, but loving the music. The second time I had met more forumites so sat with them and had a few more dances. But it was a case of getting used to the style of dancing, not about feeling 'outside'. And it would be easy for me to feel 'outside' as I'm right on the edge of MJ here in NI and have no classes to go, easy for me to feel inadequate. But that's one nice thing about the forum - I can get up with other forumites and not only have lovely dances, but it improves my dancing because of that challenge. Though I'm still shy of asking guys to dance in the blues room and wouldn't want to dance right beside J&T or Viktor (would rather like to dance with Viktor though!)

jivecat
18th-June-2005, 12:18 PM
[QUOTE=djtrev]..........they were doing;I believe;WCS and as I have never been taught WCS I felt very reluctant to ask anyone to dance.[QUOTE]

Oops, I didn't notice this. (But then I wasn't looking very hard.) Maybe I've been doing it all wrong?? :eek: :blush:
Aaah, what the hell.........

Glad you WERE having fun, DJ Trev! :hug:

Banana Man
18th-June-2005, 04:18 PM
Rather than walk away with my tail between my legs I will pursue my original observation.
/SNIP
That is exactly how it appeared to me.
Over the three days the blues area was taken over by predominantly "forumites";The teachers and 'premier league' were mainly in the bar and the forumites were in the seating area.The forum was even given the opportunity to hold an exclusive reception in the blues area,even to the point of putting a class back to almost midnight to accomodate it.I believe ZW even managed to persuade John and Wes to give TWK a slot in the latin room on Sunday night.While I agree that this added to the general enjoyment of the weekend is it not a bit arrogant of us to think and even expect that we can influence how a weekend is organised. Nice post DJTrev, but I'm a bit confused. Do you not consider yourself a forumite? I only know a few fellow forumites from the London area, so for me, the blues area could have been mainly full of non-forumites, I had no way of telling as I missed Fri night.


As a relative newcomer to the forum and weekenders it struck me that the majority of the forum were reasonably familier with each other so the chances of the likes of Underpar or Lory standing on the sidelines waiting for a partner for any length of time was highly remote.In the main ballroom it was not unusual to be asked by complete strangers to dance but in the blues room,apart from the Forum possee(you lovely ladies know who you are) I was not asked by one single stranger to dance.I think UP and Lory don't wait long for a dance because they are friendly, open people who want to dance lots, and as such rarely, if ever, say no, and are prepared to ask complete strangers (IMHO). I don't think it's anything to do with them being forumites. I think the benefit of being on the forum is when you do go to events outside your own area you can say hi and dance with people you've chatted with online but maybe never met before.

I spent Fri and Sat evenings in the latin and blues rooms and was really pleased TWK was asked to do a set. It's great that John and Wes are receptive to requests from punters, whoever they are. I think your inference that ZW used some sort of Forum influence to coerce John and Wes is unfair. TWK is a superb DJ who regularly DJs at both Ceroc and non-Ceroc venues and as such surely appeals to a cross-section of dancers.



But the music WOW! It was always challenging, moody sometimes sublime.I agree completely and one would assume that all those people who were stood on the sidelines felt the same way.So why didn't they get up there and dance.I personnally think they felt that they didn't 'belong'.

Please dont look at this as a criticism or an attack on the forum in general;it is merely an observation.


I'm losing the will to live where this kind of topic is concerned.......live & let live for goodness sake. Sorry Daisy but I'm getting paranoid about this.I am fed up with being on the outside I want to be on the inside,I want to be part of the crowd,I want to be able to dance like the big boys,but I can't,I hate standing and watching,its bl***y frustrating,I want to be having the same fun they are having.I don't agree DJT. I felt the same way and didn't get up and dance too much, I enjoyed watching. I did make an effort and asked complete strangers, and was also gratified to be asked by a couple as well - these were my best dances of the weekend. :flower: People in the blues room (experienced dancers, nonys, teachers, DJs) were there for a variety of reasons, to dance, to watch, to listen, to socialise. Daisy is right, let them get on with it, I think you're overanalysing the situation.


Sorry Jivecat and Daisy,I didnt make my point very well there.Believe me I have fun when I take to the floor and dance,as in deed I did, but in this case what I was trying to say was that in the blues room at southport the dancers there had progressed not only beyond my MJ standard but also they were doing;I believe;WCS and as I have never been taught WCS I felt very reluctant to ask anyone to dance.I didnt really feel comfortable asking somebody to "come down" to my MJ level when it seemed that they might be looking at something slightly more challenging.Fair point, but IMHO if you'd looked around you would have found a mixture of styles - WCS, latin, MJ, or even just plain dancin! Maybe your eye was drawn to the superb WCS dancers that were there. When I asked strangers to dance I simply asked if they were okay if we didn't do WCS, didn't encounter any problems. For me the music in the main ballroom was very strongly MJ and it was difficult to dance other styles properly. Similarly in the latin room Sat night, there was a lot of Salsa that didn't lend itself too much to MJ. Not for me, but everyone else was having a fab time. The music in the blues room was ideal if you wanted to do something other than MJ but you could still MJ if you wanted to. I think it's right that there was somewhere that you could WCS, some people did want to practice what they had learnt in the classes.

Great posts DJTrev, glad you had fun, cheers.

spindr
18th-June-2005, 05:49 PM
Some hints for "mafia" wanabees (http://www.salsamafia.com/index.php?Load=Mafia_Wannabe.html).

SpinDr

Banana Man
18th-June-2005, 05:51 PM
Some hints for "mafia" wanabees (http://www.salsamafia.com/index.php?Load=Mafia_Wannabe.html).

SpinDr


:worthy:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

David Bailey
18th-June-2005, 06:44 PM
Nice post DJTrev, but I'm a bit confused. Do you not consider yourself a forumite?
You know, that's a really interesting question. In the context being discussed, I know I don't...


I think UP and Lory don't wait long for a dance because they are friendly, open people who want to dance lots, and as such rarely, if ever, say no,
Being a gorgeous blonde probably doesn't hurt. And Lory gets a few dances as well.


I think the benefit of being on the forum is when you do go to events outside your own area you can say hi and dance with people you've chatted with online but maybe never met before.
Different people get different things out of it. For me, the benefit is in making me think about, and discussing, dance issues.


I think your inference that ZW used some sort of Forum influence to coerce John and Wes is unfair.
Wow, but that'd be good though, wouldn't it? A real Mafia thing then :)


I want to be having the same fun they are having.
I suspect everyone feels like this sometimes, I know I do. Including the ones having fun at the moment.


Similarly in the latin room Sat night, there was a lot of Salsa that didn't lend itself too much to MJ.
Hey, wash your mouth out, sir :mad:

Chicklet
18th-June-2005, 07:26 PM
I want to be having the same fun they are having.
I was not at Southport this time, but I was last time, and can picture the scene...having spent most of two long nights in the blues area, bar n'all, lovin it (hissy fit on loss and find of necklace notwithsanding :blush: ) .
I have no idea if I was part of the "them" of last time or not, I do know that I knew lots of people, often simply from the forum and was quite comfortable sitting down next to anyone who was there and having a silly 3 am type conversationette.
At no point did it occur to me that I wasn't having as much fun as anyone else.......so I'm really struggling with the above.....I'm a strong believer that these nights, events, BBQs etc are going to be what people make them....this forum has a hell of a lot of crap on it, ( and I'm happy to hold my hand up to responsibility for a fair whack of it many moons ago) but the bottom line that I see is that it breaks the ice for so many people, surely that first move ( :wink: ) is sooo much easier when you have a little knowledge of the person standing next to you with whom you'd love to dance/chat/drink/share a wiggly worm (an incrowd R66 joke - an even smaller clique :rofl: ) But there's only so much it can do....you have to USE the Force, the Force will help you, but it can't BE you.
C :grin: :flower:

Chicklet
18th-June-2005, 07:58 PM
woops, forgot to include the actual point of my post above... :blush:
DJT - I'm struggling to understand what your post is for....serious and genuine question - it seems like a big thing to "confess" on here,

Do you believe that "they" should have acted differently (towards you) on that night, in that place, at that weekender? if so, how?
or are you just being incredibly honest and admitting something that you see in yourself wondering if others can come up with ideas?

As I say, genuine question as I have a friend that no longer dances, and confesses her main reason as feeling the same way you do.... All the advice /councilling (sp?)/ reasurance /encouragement I have ever given has fallen on deaf ears and now she does not come at all, even although I know she loved it for a year.
C

(yes I've read all the moral obligations to newbies and "away venues", this isn't the same thing)

David Bailey
18th-June-2005, 08:10 PM
As I say, genuine question as I have a friend that no longer dances, and confesses her main reason as feeling the same way you do.... All the advice /councilling (sp?)/ reasurance /encouragement I have ever given has fallen on deaf ears and now she does not come at all, even although I know she loved it for a year.
People are funny. Sometimes, if you're in a, I dunno, 50-50 mood, you can go dancing and it'll lift you up. But you can also go dancing in such a bad mood and it'll depress you.

For me, it's usually in the first couple of dances. In other words, if I'm in a verging-on-stroppy mood, I can be snapped out of it by a great dance, typically by someone I know and can relax with, who I know won't worry if I'm not on top form. But if I have a couple of bad initial dances in a row, I then tip over into sulk mode...

LMC
18th-June-2005, 08:53 PM
I'm feeling very excluded by all this discussion about exclusion at Southport :devil:


I am fed up with being on the outside I want to be on the inside,I want to be part of the crowd,I want to be able to dance like the big boys,but I can't,I hate standing and watching,its bl***y frustrating,I want to be having the same fun they are having.


All I can say is that "having fun" or "belonging" are sometimes merely a matter of attitude and illusion. If you were on that floor, dancing, then other people on the sidelines would assume unquestioningly that you were part of that world just because you had the confidence to get up and participate, and might, in their turn, be faintly envious of you.

:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

I often go to venues on my own and I don't care what anyone says, it is more difficult to do this when you're a woman - both culturally and because there are usually more women than men, so we are more likely to get left sitting. I frequently feel like djtrev's comment, but try to behave like jivecat's. Unfortunately, just one "bad" dance can really knock your confidence if you're on your own. Perhaps "bombursts" should specifically look for poor wallflowers like me?

djtrev
18th-June-2005, 08:55 PM
Chicklet,
I have almost forgotten what my original post was about.
I guess the bottom line is that much as I loved the music and would have loved to dance I didnt feel that my level would have been good enough.Amongst my own group I would have felt quite comfortable to dance all night in the blues room,but amongst all those excellent dancers,all of a sudden I felt very inadequite.

Yogi_Bear
18th-June-2005, 10:28 PM
Chicklet,
I have almost forgotten what my original post was about.
I guess the bottom line is that much as I loved the music and would have loved to dance I didnt feel that my level would have been good enough.Amongst my own group I would have felt quite comfortable to dance all night in the blues room,but amongst all those excellent dancers,all of a sudden I felt very inadequite.There are stages to go through, DjTrev. If like many of us you began or restarted dancing with MJ, then when you get exposure to people dancing WCS, blues, Lindy or whatever and dancing really well, you naturally hit a learning curve if you want to join in. Don't worry about spending some time just watching and listening, taking in the ambience and looking how people adapt their style and what they dance to the music. If that's the direction you want your own dancing to take, you will get there. Go to workshops in the styles you like and with the teachers you admire...

Lory
18th-June-2005, 10:49 PM
People are funny.
:yeah:

As you say, people are funny creatures.. I sometimes wonder what makes people have such opposing outlooks on life...... :confused:

I remember walking in to a party with a friend once, where everyone was standing, chatting and laughing very loudly, I only knew two people but to me, the buzz felt really exciting and I couldn't wait to find out what the joke was! :clap: :clap:

Almost immediately though, I felt a sharp tug on my arm, as the friend I arrived with, made a begging face at me and mouthed, Ladies? :sick:

When we got in there, she said in a panicked voice, you will stick with me, won't you? We don't know hardly anyone and we'll stand out like sore thumbs! :blush:

I bloody hope so, i said giggling! :wink:

There we go, two people, same boat, two totally different feelings!

What one person finds really exciting, another finds daunting!

Optimism verses pessimism :confused:

Lory
18th-June-2005, 10:55 PM
To Add.... there's two way's to look at it.....

If you ever question yourself, which one do you use?????

Why would they want to dance/talk to me :confused:

Why wouldn't they want to dance/talk to me? :D

Minnie M
18th-June-2005, 10:56 PM
I guess the bottom line is that much as I loved the music and would have loved to dance I didnt feel that my level would have been good enough.Amongst my own group I would have felt quite comfortable to dance all night in the blues room,but amongst all those excellent dancers,all of a sudden I felt very inadequite.
It's all in your head djtrev - truly :really: your dancing ability is just as good as most of the leads in the blues room at Southport - honestly it really is :yeah: :flower: I certainly wouldn't throw you out of my 'dancing bed' and nor would any of my dancing friends :clap:

Lory
18th-June-2005, 10:58 PM
It's all in your head djtrev - truly :really: your dancing ability is just as good as most of the leads in the blues room at Southport - honestly it really is :yeah: :flower: I certainly wouldn't throw you out of my 'dancing bed' and nor would any of my dancing friends :clap:
:yeah: :hug:

djtrev
18th-June-2005, 11:07 PM
Thanks MM

As it was only the second time that we had met,you and the rest of the Forum Possee made me very welcome.

David Bailey
19th-June-2005, 09:40 AM
I'm feeling very excluded by all this discussion about exclusion at Southport :devil:
:rofl: Me too!


Unfortunately, just one "bad" dance can really knock your confidence if you're on your own. Perhaps "bombursts" should specifically look for poor wallflowers like me?
I love the "bomburst" idea, it'd be great to see it in action. Possibly a little scary, but it's a lovely dramatic image...

djtrev
19th-June-2005, 09:55 AM
It really bothers me on freestyle nights,when I am DJ'ing, to see the number of women standing at the side of the floor just waiting for someone to ask them to dance.There are a lot of ladies who find it difficult to ask a guy to dance so I have used the bomburst idea a couple of times and have received favourable feedback.But there are always the odd couple or so who dont want to play the game!

Yogi_Bear
19th-June-2005, 10:40 AM
Thanks MM

As it was only the second time that we had met,you and the rest of the Forum Possee made me very welcome.Good to see you at Southport. See you again in the blues room in September, dancing with MM and Lory, no doubt!

jivecat
19th-June-2005, 11:14 AM
To Add.... there's two way's to look at it.....

If you ever question yourself, which one do you use?????

Why would they want to dance/talk to me :confused:

Why wouldn't they want to dance/talk to me? :D

If I ask myself the first question I can never think of any good reasons.

I never ask myself the second question.

I've found it more productive to ask myself an alternative question, "Do YOU want to talk to/ dance with that person? You do? Well, bl**dy well get on with it then!"

LMC
19th-June-2005, 01:04 PM
If I ask myself the first question I can never think of any good reasons.

I never ask myself the second question.

I've found it more productive to ask myself an alternative question, "Do YOU want to talk to/ dance with that person? You do? Well, bl**dy well get on with it then!"

:yeah:

To get back to the original topic, even as a beginner who hardly knows anybody and goes to venues on my own, I still don't see any problem with (and might be envious, but NOT intimidated by) a large group going to a venue 'together' and having a good time - of course with the proviso that they don't "exclude" others.

Lory
21st-July-2005, 04:17 PM
Ah ha! :nice:

It would appear that all fears may have been slightly misguided, as apparently ALL the ladies tickets for the forthcoming Greenwich event were sold out on the FIRST night they went on sale. :eek:

According to Russel, they sold 'like hot cakes' to all the REGULARS, thus leaving NONE for the likes us forum woman! :tears:

So, I would assume from this that, the regulars MUST have had a very GOOD time, last time! :clap:

Hey girls, those 'regular' women are after OUR men! :devil:

Feelingpink
21st-July-2005, 04:23 PM
...

Hey girls, those 'regular' women are after OUR men! :devil: :yeah:... and who can blame them :hug:

Lory
21st-July-2005, 04:29 PM
and who can blame them :hug:
:yeah: not me!

Anyone else feeing insecure :blush:

Danielle
21st-July-2005, 05:58 PM
Ah ha! :nice:

It would appear that all fears may have been slightly misguided, as apparently ALL the ladies tickets for the forthcoming Greenwich event were sold out on the FIRST night they went on sale. :eek:

According to Russel, they sold 'like hot cakes' to all the REGULARS, thus leaving NONE for the likes us forum woman! :tears:

So, I would assume from this that, the regulars MUST have had a very GOOD time, last time! :clap:

Hey girls, those 'regular' women are after OUR men! :devil:

I've missed out on tickets too :sad: seeing as all us lovely ladies seemed to have missed out i have a suggestion :clap:

Mie and I were talking about trying a pole dancing class sometime for a bit of a giggle I wondered if anyone was free that day and fancied getting a group of girlies together for a class and a bit of laugh and maybe a few drinks after?????

if people are interested i'll find out whats about and if we can book a class :D

Cruella
21st-July-2005, 06:04 PM
I've missed out on tickets too :sad: seeing as all us lovely ladies seemed to have missed out i have a suggestion :clap:

Mie and I were talking about trying a pole dancing class sometime for a bit of a giggle I wondered if anyone was free that day and fancied getting a group of girlies together for a class and a bit of laugh and maybe a few drinks after?????

if people are interested i'll find out whats about and if we can book a class :D
I think the men would rather come and watch this than go to Greenwich :whistle: Sorry Russell but i think you may have an empty venue if this happens. :wink:

Gus
21st-July-2005, 07:15 PM
I think the men would rather come and watch this than go to Greenwich :whistle: Sorry Russell but i think you may have an empty venue if this happens. :wink:You obviously havent seen how the babes at Greenwich dance! :drool: :drool: :wink:

Feelingpink
21st-July-2005, 11:22 PM
I think the men would rather come and watch this than go to Greenwich :whistle: Sorry Russell but i think you may have an empty venue if this happens. :wink:I'm sure the men would too, but they are NOT invited. :devil:

jockey
22nd-July-2005, 04:33 AM
I bumped into a guy in the loo (as you do) and he said "its great to see some new dancers down here" (at Greenwich party night); I danced with loads of women and some were forumites I had just been introduced to but most werent. We arent anything special, are we? :cool:

Lory
22nd-July-2005, 08:03 AM
We arent anything special, are we? :cool:
Speak for yourself! :cool: :innocent: :wink:

Petal
22nd-July-2005, 10:48 AM
' I think the only way to over come this problem, is to have a few organised 'excuse me' dances, where everyone has to dance with a stranger and swap about. :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:


:yeah: I think this would be a great idea, during the freestyle part of a class and at freestyle events, it might make it less intimidating then when it was announced "dance with a stranger", what do others think?

Lynn
22nd-July-2005, 11:53 AM
:yeah: I think this would be a great idea, during the freestyle part of a class and at freestyle events, it might make it less intimidating then when it was announced "dance with a stranger", what do others think? This happened at one of the freestyles at Scarborough weekender. Someone played a track for everyone who had been at one of the workshops to practice what they had learned (can't remember what as I hadn't been at that workshop). Part way through everyone was told to leave their partner and go and get someone else onto the floor. Then I think they did it again. It was fun as people just asked whoever was near, they didn't go and try and find their friends. It was a good way to get people mixing a bit.