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MartinHarper
13th-June-2005, 11:21 PM
So, a fair number of popular MJ songs seem to have several bars of (to me) wishy-washy stuff in the middle, where the music goes quieter, and nothing much seems to happen. Currently I'm finding this mildly irritating, because I'm never quite sure how to deal with it. Any ideas?

Northants Girly
13th-June-2005, 11:33 PM
So, a fair number of popular MJ songs seem to have several bars of (to me) wishy-washy stuff in the middle, where the music goes quieter, and nothing much seems to happen. Currently I'm finding this mildly irritating, because I'm never quite sure how to deal with it. Any ideas?Give us an eg song Martin . . . .

Minnie M
14th-June-2005, 12:53 AM
Pink Panther ? the "other" version

All that Jazz ??

CJ
14th-June-2005, 12:57 AM
I assumed stuff like "Lola's Theme," or most contemporary dance tunes where they cut certain frequencies so it isn't a pause as such, just a really quiet bit in the piece.

But, until the Harper fellow replies, we shall never know... :tears:

MartinHarper
14th-June-2005, 01:10 AM
I can't think of names, but I'll get back to you - hard to remember songs I don't like... Generally I'm thinking of dance/pop rather than blues/swing.

The weird Pink Panther version is "challenging", but not what I'm thinking of - there are things happening, they're just difficult to dance to. The false endings of (if I remember the song from the name) "All that Jazz" can be awkward, but at least they're short.

David Bailey
14th-June-2005, 09:13 AM
I can't think of names, but I'll get back to you - hard to remember songs I don't like... Generally I'm thinking of dance/pop rather than blues/swing.
I do know what you mean, Martin - annoyingly, I can't think of any examples either :blush:

But some pop songs have 15-20 second gaps / slow bits, and holding a dip for that long is a/ boring, b/ challenging to my puny and underdeveloped muscles...

David Franklin
14th-June-2005, 09:20 AM
I do know what you mean, Martin - annoyingly, I can't think of any examples either :blush: Not sure this is the greatest example, but how about Hero (Metro Mix) - approx 2:30 into the track?


But some pop songs have 15-20 second gaps / slow bits, and holding a dip for that long is a/ boring, b/ challenging to my puny and underdeveloped muscles...Of course, I did a lift to that bit during our wedding dance! :blush:

Lou
14th-June-2005, 09:23 AM
I do know what you mean, Martin - annoyingly, I can't think of any examples either :blush:
OK - How about In-grid's In-Tango? There's a cute slow quiet bit about 2 and a half minutes into the ordinary mix (the bit that starts - "Ce soir, danse avec moi"). Lasts about 20 seconds.


But some pop songs have 15-20 second gaps / slow bits, and holding a dip for that long is a/ boring, b/ challenging to my puny and underdeveloped muscles...
Well....you could blues it for a bit, let the lady wiggle, do a number of dips & close moves, or simply have fun trying to interpret a different part of the music that isn't the rhythm section. There's more to life than drums. ;)

David Bailey
14th-June-2005, 10:01 AM
Well....you could blues it for a bit, let the lady wiggle, do a number of dips & close moves, or simply have fun trying to interpret a different part of the music that isn't the rhythm section. There's more to life than drums. ;)
Good to know :whistle:

Yes, I've occasionally been known to get involved with this strange wiggling thing people talk about.

But, hmmm.... I dunno, for some of these sections, it just doesn't fit in. I know that's not helpful, but I can't really describe it any better than it feels like I'm "marking time" to some of these sections. Possibly because I'm not expecting them, if they were played more often I could anticipate a bit better transition. But then, I'm kind of glad they don't get played so much anyway :)

Lou
14th-June-2005, 10:10 AM
Possibly because I'm not expecting them, if they were played more often I could anticipate a bit better transition.
Judging by the 2 examples so far - expect the unexpected about 2:30 into the song.... ;)

Daisy Chain
14th-June-2005, 11:43 AM
I'm never quite sure how to deal with it. Any ideas?

You could both nip off the dance floor for a quick drink and meet up where you left off when the beat starts again.

There. Sorted.
Daisy

(A Dry Little FLower)

Mary
14th-June-2005, 08:10 PM
I'm never quite sure how to deal with it. Any ideas?


Catch up on some gossip? Ok, I suppose you could do a slow stroll at the same time.

M

ElaineB
14th-June-2005, 08:18 PM
"All that Jazz" can be awkward, but at least they're short.

Last time I danced to that I had a wonderful partner........it was a pole at the Hammersmith Champs and I thought it interpreted the quite bits really well!!!! :rofl: :wink:


Elaine

MouthoftheSouth
14th-June-2005, 11:27 PM
Start with a snappy break, then do a walk-away and let the lady interpret the music while you perv...er....gaze appreciatingly at her......;)

Mary
14th-June-2005, 11:31 PM
Start with a snappy break, then do a walk-away and let the lady interpret the music while you perv...er....gaze appreciatingly at her......;)

Nah. Go for the good gossip opportunity - it's the only time I can hear what the **** someone is saying!!! :wink: :devil:

M

MouthoftheSouth
15th-June-2005, 12:17 AM
You can gossip any time - checking out the talent is often an activity fraught with risk for us blokes, but we have permission to do so while dancing!! :waycool: :devil: :flower:

Lory
15th-June-2005, 07:56 AM
Depends who your dancing with of course but I find, if it's the right partner, who I feel comfortable with, then a good old smooch for a few bars is quite acceptable. :nice:
And then, when the music kicks in again, do something big and dramatic, it adds a nice contrast :waycool:

David Bailey
15th-June-2005, 08:42 AM
Depends who your dancing with of course but I find, if it's the right partner, who I feel comfortable with, then a good old smooch for a few bars is quite acceptable. :nice:
That'll be the protein thing (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5567) then? :whistle:

Lory
15th-June-2005, 09:37 AM
That'll be the protein thing (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5567) then? :whistle:
:really: I said SMOOCH .... not SNOG!!! :rolleyes:

David Bailey
15th-June-2005, 09:47 AM
:really: I said SMOOCH .... not SNOG!!! :rolleyes:
I'm just out of touch with what you young people are calling it nowdays - but I always thought that smooching was snogging.

Hmmm, that probably explains a lot.... :whistle:

Clive Long
15th-June-2005, 09:51 AM
So, a fair number of popular MJ songs seem to have several bars of (to me) wishy-washy stuff in the middle, where the music goes quieter, and nothing much seems to happen. Currently I'm finding this mildly irritating, because I'm never quite sure how to deal with it. Any ideas?
Spooky Martin.

I said exactly the same thing to a couple of dance partners last week.

I can't remember the name of songs (nor dance partners) but I hate that "mush" that bears no relation to the rest of the song - change of mood that's related to the rest of the song - that's fine. I can't describe the difference clearly but I know it when I hear it.

Suggestion: chance to brush up cheesy chat-up lines for me. :D

CRL

David Bailey
15th-June-2005, 10:46 AM
There was a Danii Minogue track played last night at ISH, that had a slow bit of this type somewhere in it. It was only 10-15 seconds, so I managed to bluff my way through it somehow.

B52s "Love Shack" has a quiet bit too, as I recall; but at least that still has the beat clearly there, so maybe that's not a good example...

DavidB
15th-June-2005, 04:55 PM
In a lot of modern 'club' music you get a break that lasts for a whole 32-beat phrase of music. For want of a better name I call them phrase breaks. They are an integral part of this style of music.

One thing that makes music interesting is variation and contrast. The musicians and singers can vary the intensity, the rhythm, the key, the emotion etc. Blues for example varies the key and the rhythm in a very structured way, which makes it easy to dance to. Modern RnB varies the rhythm almost constantly throughout a track, making it harder/more interesting to dance to, depending on your point of view.

Modern club music does not vary the rhythm too much. What it does instead is vary the intensity of the music. It seems to consist of layer upon layer of music, and these layers are constantly being added or removed. Typically you start off with an introduction with a single layer. Then next layer is almost always the base line. Over the next 2 phrases (ie 2 lots of 32 counts) you get progressively more layers added. Then you get the phrase break, when all but one of the layers are removed. Then it starts building up again.

Musical interpretation of club music is different to blues music. You need to vary the intensity in your dancing more than the rhythm. Simple close moves when there are few layers, and big complex moves at maximum intensity. THe phrase breaks last so much longer than normal breaks. Don't think of hitting the start of them, but think more of what you do during them. Slow continuous moves, with body leads instead of hands, seem to work. Promenades, variable speed spins are good. Shadow dancing if your partner likes it (beware - lots of ladies dont!) Whatever you do, don't try to make a 'wiggle' last 32 beats!

The layering of the music tends to be a gradual build up, and a more sudden drop-off. The layering is most obvious coming out of a phrase break. As each new layer starts it provides a little 'hit' you can use.

The other key thing you can use is the vocals. (This does depend on knowing the song.) You get a lot of extended notes that again provide a 'hit' you can use - almost like a break in blues.

One of the hardest things is that the build-up in intensity is relentless at times. You put in all your big moves too soon, and you are left doing first-moves and yoyos at the highlight in the music. There is no need to rush things.

To write club music off as 'boring thump-thump music' is wrong. There is more going on in the music than anyone currently doing MJ can interpret. Of course none of this makes much difference if you don't like club music in the first place.

(Apologies to any musicians if I've used the wrong terms.)

David

PS I think I've written this before somewhere. Sorry for the repetition.

David Franklin
15th-June-2005, 06:08 PM
Great post as ever. My one comment would be about "thump-thump music". I find there are some tracks where the "thump-thump" percussion is so over-emphasised (i.e. loud :wink: ), that it overpowers everything else. This is by no means only club music though - a lot of swing sounds like that to me as well. It's one of the (many!) reasons I don't like live bands - because live drummers always seem to have their volume 'set to 11'.

Talking about "building up", breaks, and "quiet bits", Robert Royston taught something I'd never really had articulated before. Paraphrasing from memory:- A lot of music is structured in 'waves' of 32 beats broken up into 4 sets of 8. Typically the first 2 sets of 8 are near identical, the third set has a little more 'attack', and then the last set of eight really builds (both speed and power). But that doesn't mean there's (necessarily) a full-on break coming up - often, we just go back to another 'wave'. But you can still make great use of the structure. If you watch, say, Jordan and Tatianna, you'll often see them go into some insanely fast and complicated move on the last set of 8. Impressive stuff, but what really gets the reaction is the transition back to "calmer" dancing at the start of the next wave.

(Like hitting breaks, I think a lot of dancers do this, at least somewhat, just by listening to the feel of the music. But it was interesting to get it spelt out, and actually do the counting etc...)

Daisy Chain
15th-June-2005, 07:08 PM
... I'm never quite sure how to deal with it. Any ideas?

Just leave it to me. I'll hijack the lead, put you in a slo-comb and stroke the stubble on the back of your next until the beat kicks in. Any objections?

Daisy

(A Flirtatious Little Flower)

David Bailey
15th-June-2005, 08:25 PM
Modern club music does not vary the rhythm too much. What it does instead is vary the intensity of the music. It seems to consist of layer upon layer of music, and these layers are constantly being added or removed. Typically you start off with an introduction with a single layer. Then next layer is almost always the base line. Over the next 2 phrases (ie 2 lots of 32 counts) you get progressively more layers added. Then you get the phrase break, when all but one of the layers are removed. Then it starts building up again.

The other key thing you can use is the vocals. (This does depend on knowing the song.) You get a lot of extended notes that again provide a 'hit' you can use - almost like a break in blues.

This explains the whole Bodyrockers thing - fantastic!


To write club music off as 'boring thump-thump music' is wrong. There is more going on in the music than anyone currently doing MJ can interpret. Of course none of this makes much difference if you don't like club music in the first place.
Can I nominate this for the "most informative post" award?

Oh, and many :worthy: of course :)

David Bailey
15th-June-2005, 08:48 PM
Just leave it to me. I'll hijack the lead, put you in a slo-comb and stroke the stubble on the back of your next until the beat kicks in. Any objections?
Yeah, where's the next? Is that, like, after the previous? :confused:

:whistle:

Daisy Chain
15th-June-2005, 09:06 PM
Yeah, where's the next? Is that, like, after the previous? :confused:

:whistle:


Drat, I meant your neck :blush:

Daisy

(An Anatomically Challenged Flower)

MartinHarper
15th-June-2005, 11:42 PM
I'll [...] stroke the stubble on the back of your neck until the beat kicks in.

I knew there was a reason I wanted to get a shorter haircut...


You put in all your big moves too soon, and you are left doing first-moves and yoyos at the highlight in the music.

I think I suffer more from the opposite problem - I tend to dance simple moves anyway, and that leaves me nowhere to go when the music suddenly goes quiet. I should make an effort to pick up some "flash and trash" to get some versatility for this sort of track.
Watching other dancers, a lot of them seem to go into extended dip-to-dip mode, or else into some sort of wiggle overdose. I've never really felt comfortable with either style of dancing. Another thing to work on.