using the breaks

[Damien]

All the experienced dancers talk about using the breaks in music. As a relative beginner I'm OK with executing the move, even keeping with the beat and rhythm of the music. :) I'm less sure about all this break stuff. Can anyone explain this to me in very easy laymans terms. Also easy examples of how the less experienced dancer can use a musical break. Using the breaks has never been demonstrated in any of the classes I've attended :tears: Can anyone help the uninitiated 'break dancer'?

[Gadget]

Can anyone help the uninitiated 'break dancer'?
:D
A "Break" is normally where the base or drum stop for a beat or two. Since this forms your 'counts' in a move, the easiest way to interprate them is stop your count within that move, or extend it untill the beat picks up again.

"Hitting a break" is where a dancer predicts where this break will be in the music and is in a nice place to pose or go into a flash move to highlight it.
There are musical theorys about counts and beats and bars and repeating patterns and how to predict when one will arrive within a song, but I've found it easier to just listen lots or become familure with where they are in a "classic" song that your DJ plays semi-regularly.

Strictly speaking, a 'break' can be a break in vocals, in drums, in bass, in melody, or any of the layers that make up a track: they are musical highlights (or "lowlights") that are relativly easy to make the most of within a dance.

How to use them? Standard ways are to freeze or dip. But anything goes.

[Donna]

:D
A "Break" is normally where the base or drum stop for a beat or two. Since this forms your 'counts' in a move, the easiest way to interprate them is stop your count within that move, or extend it untill the beat picks up again.

"Hitting a break" is where a dancer predicts where this break will be in the music and is in a nice place to pose or go into a flash move to highlight it.
There are musical theorys about counts and beats and bars and repeating patterns and how to predict when one will arrive within a song, but I've found it easier to just listen lots or become familure with where they are in a "classic" song that your DJ plays semi-regularly.

Strictly speaking, a 'break' can be a break in vocals, in drums, in bass, in melody, or any of the layers that make up a track: they are musical highlights (or "lowlights") that are relativly easy to make the most of within a dance.

How to use them? Standard ways are to freeze or dip. But anything goes.

Hmmm....unless you're a musician and you can guess where the breaks come in (like my dance partner...such a swat he is!!! :flower: ) then it's a lot easier to do this if you know your music. :wink:

[spindr]

Bit pushed to do a full post -- there's a few notes and explanations at:
http://www.afterfive.co.uk/guide/latest/html/music_and_musical_interpretation.html#musical_brea ks

Hope that helps a bit.

SpinDr.

[Bill]

Hmmm....unless you're a musician and you can guess where the breaks come in (like my dance partner...such a swat he is!!! :flower: ) then it's a lot easier to do this if you know your music. :wink:


Unless you've been to one of Nigel's workshops !! ;)

It is much easier if you know the music but as he points out just being aware of the basic structure means you soon pick up where the beat is and when any break is likely to be as the pattern is repeated throughout the track. And you don't have to count tthem out and wait for them to appear! :rolleyes: :D

[David Bailey]

A good practical way of finding out about breaks and what to do with them, I think, is to wait for a "break-heavy" song (e.g. All That Jazz), and watch some experienced dancers to see how they interpret it.

(Although I usually go to the bar for that one, it's just too much breakage...)

Is there a list of "Break" tracks somewhere?

[Andreas]

Hmmm....unless you're a musician and you can guess where the breaks come in (like my dance partner...such a swat he is!!! :flower: ) then it's a lot easier to do this if you know your music. :wink:

No, you don't have to be musician to find breaks.

First of all is losing your focus on moves. Start to embrace the dance as a combination of music, your moves and your dance partner. Count external influences like audience in if you please.

Then, when you are at home, on your own, listen to various pieces of music, in particular Swing style. Just close your eyes and feel the tune. You will after a short while find that there is a natural flow in the music, which you can 'float' in. After a wee while you will also find that music builds up and then settles again. In some pieces this is only hinted (boring disco), in other ones you build so much tension that there can be nothing but a break coming up.

To get to a level where you recognise every single break in a piece you have never heard before is a long winding road. However, the more you can actually embrace the music in your dance the more you will feed off the the your pride when you recognise one, then two, then three .... breaks in a piece. It is a very rewarding feeling because not only does it give the dance for you much more depth and feel, it does the same for your partner ... and the audience if you can be bothered to care!


It is clear that not all people are gifted with the same level of musicality. However, everybody has at least the slightest sense for it and that is all it takes to predict what is coming up.

If it is easier for you, start counting music. A bar has four beats, two bars usually complete a harmonical wave (-> build up in first bar, release in second bar; and that is where musicians will attempt to kill me :D), which you should be able to easily recognise. Count four of those and you are likely to hit the end of the phrase. Breaks usually occur after (x*2 bars) => 8, 16, 32 beats. There are exceptions but chances are good that you hit breaks with this rule.

[Andreas]

Is there a list of "Break" tracks somewhere?

You mean break dance? :rofl: :rofl:

[David Franklin]

Some more advice taken from the rec.arts.dance FAQ (section 8.2 - Hitting the breaks (http://www.eijkhout.net/lead_follow/hit_the_breaks.html) - there's a lot more there than I've quoted):

Most "breaks" that you want to hit come at the ends of verses, chorus, or bridge, so you want to be aware of when these things are coming up. This isn't as hard as it may seem, because the phrasing in the lyrics and so on will often tell you. To hear when the breaks are coming, try listening closely to the bass lines. Think of each verse, (or bridge or chorus) in the song as a paragraph and the lines of each as sentences in the paragraph. You can tell, from inflection, etc., both in the words and in the instrumental section, when each "paragraph" is about to end. You can tell this even in a purely instrumental song, even if you come in the middle. The percussion will often build in certain ways leading up to a break. Part of the secret is that most songs are made up of *repeated* structures. Almost everything in American popular music (except 12-bar blues) is written in verses with four lines apiece; once you've heard the first verse, you know how long (in measures) all the rest of the verses will be. (In 12-bar blues, the verses are three lines long, and the second line is often a repeat of the first, though sung with different inflection.) Now, you don't have to count beats or even bars; you need only an approximate feel for how long a verse is, and then you can be aware of the cues (changes in the bass line, changes in the inflection on the vocals, etc.) that will tell you "last line of the verse coming up!"

[MartinHarper]

"relative beginner" is a fairly broad term... The simplest possible way to interpret a break is to dance through it. Some women actually prefer this, though I doubt many are on this forum.

The second simplest possible way to interpret a break is a very low key "in and out" or "side to side". Easy to lead into, allows some "play" space, easy to lead out of. It doesn't matter so much if you miss the start or end of the break.

[Chef]

If your only dancing exposure is Ceroc then you will probably need to go elsewhere for any training on hitting breaks. I am not bad mouthing Ceroc just pointing out that it is not some thing I have ever noticed them teaching in my area.

The best thing you could possibly do is to get yourself off to Nigel and Ninas classes on “Hitting the Breaks” and “Musicality”. Despite my pleading they have not made a DVD of these lessons – possibly because they need each lesson tailored to the needs of each class. Failing that I will pass you my two pence worth.

1) Learn to count the beats of the music so that you can know when a new group of 8 beats start in a piece of music. Listen to lots of music and count along the groups of 8. If you find you have trouble with this then ask around and you can usually find someone with musical traingin that can hlep you. You should notice that a piece of music has an introduction and then goes into a verse. This verse will probably repeat itself a few times before going into an instrumental section in the middle of the song and then there will be a few more verses and then the song will finish with an outro. It is the structure of the repeating verses that are most useful for you to understand as a means of predicting where the breaks will come. Grab a pen and paper and as you count each group of 8 beats draw a short vertical line. When the instruments stop playing just lift the pen off the paper and then put it back down when the instruments start playing again. A good tune to start practicing with is Elvis “All Shook up” and your verse structure that repeats all though the song would look like ] ] ] : ] ] ] : (ie four groups of 8 with no instruments playing in the final group). The final group of 8 where there are not instruments playing – that is your break, In general, when you get a piece of music where there is an instrumental section in the middle there will be no breaks in that section. Get a pen and paper and give it a go for a while – you have nothing to lose.

2) Try to have a simple move that is short that you can lead into a break. A travelling return is a good starting point since you don’t have to learn anything new and it is short (vital if you only realise a break is coming when it is a few beats away). If you find you are going to arrive at the break too early you can extend the move by leading the woman into an extra turn. If you are going to be too late to the break you can make the woman do the spin twice as fast if she is a very good spinner, but if she is not a good spinner don’t force her to do it. Just arrive as the break late – it is not worth losing a friend over. To stop the woman moving when you arrive at the break just apply gentle downward pressure on the womans hand by pulling her fingers straight down to the floor (gently!) so that her hand points down to along her mid line (wish I could think of a better way to say that). This will place her weight equally on both feet and will signal a stop.

3) Find an experienced follower that you have already seen hitting breaks and tell them of your desire to learn. Most will be very helpful in playing along with someone that genuinely wants to learn. They may backlead a little at the right times, just to help you, and they will stand still when music requires it.

4) Restarting the dance at the end of the breaks. If you take “all shook up” as an example track. The breaks are all 8 beats long, so you can do anything you like (but less will be more at this point so keep it small) up until beat 6 but on 7 and 8 both of you are getting ready to restart dancing just as you would if you had the teacher by your side counting 5,6,7,8.

Time to wrap up. Breaks are not always 8 beats long. They are usually 4,8 or 12 beats long. Any longer than that and there is a possibility that the track has just ended. At the moment don’t worry about having lots of ways of hitting breaks or having flashy things to do during them. When you feel you can reliably anticipate an impending break and hit it in a planned way, then start thinking about things to do during the break.

Well there is my two pence worth. Remember, it is just my opinion, and the stuff said above is a VERY basic beginner’s guide. The afterfive.co.uk link above is comprehensive but I hope my bit is a little more digestable.

Have fun.

[jivecat]

Is there a list of "Break" tracks somewhere?

"Come up and see me, make me smile" has breaks you could drive a horse and cart through.

A list would be really useful, any more, anyone?

[Lou]

"Come up and see me, make me smile" has breaks you could drive a horse and cart through.

As does "Wade In the Water" - Eva Cassidy....

[Gadget]

If your only dancing exposure is Ceroc then you will probably need to go elsewhere for any training on hitting breaks.Depends on the what workshops are going on and who's teaching them rather than the organisation behind them.


1) Learn to count the beats of the music so that you can know when a new group of 8 beats start in a piece of music.I don't think I have ever actually "counted" in a break - I listen to the music. You will normally find a slight build up before a break or a "shhh-t" of symbols. If you also "build up" your dancing to this, when the break comes it becomes more dramatic.


2) Try to have a simple move that is short that you can lead into a break.A freeze is not the only sort of break, although it is the easiest to lead and can be what the follower expects. I would say that having to be at a particular point of a move when a break comes is really, really hard to do: you are better to simply make wherever you are in a move the 'break point'. Simply extend a bit more and put some 'pose' value in at the point the beat stops.


3) Find an experienced follower that you have already seen hitting breaks and tell them of your desire to learn.Good idea - just be carefull not to be too commited in your leading and try not to 'drag' them through moves.


4) Restarting the dance at the end of the breaks.The advantage of "freeze-frame" in the middle of a move is that you can simply thaw out and resume it. :) Generally you will freeze in an open position, with lots of space between you - simply go to a closed position like a wrap or first move or slide & collect and continue: this will give you greater contrast in the emphisis of the break.


When you feel you can reliably anticipate an impending break and hit it in a planned way, then start thinking about things to do during the break.:what: planning? :confused: What to do during the break can be a puzzle - generally I simply elongate going into the next move or try and mirror the lady.

Good tips though. :D

[David Franklin]

As does "Wade In the Water" - Eva Cassidy....And Mambo #5 has the useful trick of someone calling out "Mambo number 5" just before each of the breaks!

It's interesting to mark out all the breaks and accents on something like "How long can a fool go wrong" as well - lots of structure to look at there....

[jivecat]

3) Find an experienced follower that you have already seen hitting breaks and tell them of your desire to learn. Most will be very helpful in playing along with someone that genuinely wants to learn. They may backlead a little at the right times, just to help you, and they will stand still when music requires it.




That's why it would be good to have a list of suitable tracks because someone's asked me for some help with this and it would be hard to practise breaks to music with, er, no breaks in. Duh.

I hate it when people dance through breaks and sometimes I just stand still, especially if it's a gentle or uncertain lead and I think I can get away with it. How naughty is this? I'm sure I did this with someone this weekend, who was it then? They gave me a very mild ticking-off.


But if it's a strong, directing lead (are there any other sorts?) there's no opportunity to escape and the dissonance between what I hear and what is led can be really jarring.

[Trousers]

I hate it when people dance through breaks and sometimes I just stand still, especially if it's a gentle or uncertain lead and I think I can get away with it. How naughty is this?

That happened to me tonight, a track I didn't know and the girl came into a first move and stopped.
I just firmly ushered her back out then heard the rythm break.

I smiled sweetly (yes i do sometimes) and said to her - "that would have been great if only I'd noticed it too" and just got on with the dance.

It was a good dance regardless.

[David Bailey]

I hate it when people dance through breaks and sometimes I just stand still, especially if it's a gentle or uncertain lead and I think I can get away with it. How naughty is this?

Not naughty at all, I'd say - if it's a weak or uncertain lead, you should be free to do what you want; nature abhors a vacuum and all that. Arguably, this is a good way of training leaders not to give weak or uncertain leads :)

Although I'd also say that interpreting every single break (especially for flippin' "All that Jazz") is not mandatory, one can be too much of a slave to the rhythm...


But if it's a strong, directing lead (are there any other sorts?)
I believe the ideal is a "clear, but invitational" lead. So you know what you should do as a follower, but you're not forced into it.

[Chef]

Tracks to practice breaks to.

I have had a trawl through my Ipod to find tracks that would be suitable to practice breaks to. Quite a lot of them come from a series of albums called “Swinging the blues” so I will just abbreviate that to STB.

All shook up – Elvis
Business of Love – Domino from the Mask soundtrack
Summertime Blues – Eddie Cochran

All have a similar structure and a good place to start.

Jailhouse rock – Elvis

Only use this one when you are hitting breaks in a planned way (not just “freeze frame” wherever you happen to be) because the breaks are 32 beats long and you would look silly standing on beat 3 of a pretzel (for instance) for that long. This track also gives you ample opportunity for playing and styling during the breaks.

Blue suede shoes – Carl Perkins
Red Light – Indigo swing
Rock on – STB
Hit that jive jack – Boyd Bennet
Big and hot – STB
Blue, blue world – The dynamic breakers
Pride and joy – Sophisticated swing album
Sharks in the water – STB
Road Runner – STB
Where’s my money? – STB
I want you – the jiving jamboree Vol 1 album
I just want to make love to you – Etta James
Stray cat strut – stray cats
Waddaya want – Casey MacGill and the spirits of rhythm
Pennsylvania 6-5000 – Glenn Miller
Good Rocking daddy – Brian Setzer.
Mustang Sally – the Commitments.

Since you said you were a relatively inexperienced dancer I would advise you to keep your moves to get you to a break relatively simple and short. This will allow you to hit a break in a PLANNED way (after all when you are doing a move you are already planning the next move so that it fits the music and the space available – right). Simply freezing wherever you happen to be just means that you haven’t heard the break coming, and that will not teach you anything.

Finding an experienced dancer that will play along and help you out will be invaluable. Experienced followers love breaks because it gives them a space where they can express themselves to the music. Charging through a break with an experienced woman really grates on them.

[jivecat]

Not naughty at all, I'd say - if it's a weak or uncertain lead, you should be free to do what you want; nature abhors a vacuum and all that. Arguably, this is a good way of training leaders not to give weak or uncertain leads :).........

I believe the ideal is a "clear, but invitational" lead. So you know what you should do as a follower, but you're not forced into it.

I should point out that not all gentle leads are uncertain. And some uncertain leads are not gentle. In fact, I positively revel in a gentle but certain lead which is what you are talking about as the ideal, I think!

[Minnie M]

........ I think, is to wait for a "break-heavy" song (e.g. All That Jazz)..............
(Although I usually go to the bar for that one, it's just too much breakage...)
:yeah:
I hate dancing to "All that Jazz" can't see what all the hipe (sp?) is :really: An experience dancer can find the breaks in most (if not all) tracks, and that is MUCH more fun :clap:

[Gojive]

:yeah:
I hate dancing to "All that Jazz" can't see what all the hipe (sp?) is :really: An experience dancer can find the breaks in most (if not all) tracks, and that is MUCH more fun :clap:

I'm the opposite!...I love All That Jazz :) . It gives me stimulus (with the right and willing partner :wink: ) to go way off the beaten track for a few minutes :drool: .

[Rebecca]

I'm the opposite!...I love All That Jazz :) . It gives me stimulus (with the right and willing partner :wink: ) to go way off the beaten track for a few minutes :drool: .

I've noticed that it isn't cool to like "ATJ". People often say they can't stand it. I suspect it's the cheese factor. However, as far as I'm concerned I'm with you Gojive - the cheesier the better (every now and again).

After a good number of dances where my attention is focussed almost entirely on the interaction with the guy with whom I'm dancing (which I love incidentally) , a track that's heavy on the breaks and predictable like "ATJ" gives me a chance to perform outrageously. Shameless I know :clap:

[under par]

I'm the opposite!...I love All That Jazz :) . It gives me stimulus (with the right and willing partner :wink: ) to go way off the beaten track for a few minutes :drool: .

I thinks All That Jazz is great for that OTT dance.

Give your biggest and best and show off for a minute or 2. :flower:

[Lou]

I thinks All That Jazz is great for that OTT dance.

Give your biggest and best and show off for a minute or 2. :flower:
I love ALT. I love to pretend I'm Velma Kelly. I think I must've been a 20s vamp in a past life....

[David Bailey]

I thinks All That Jazz is great for that OTT dance.

Give your biggest and best and show off for a minute or 2. :flower:
Yes, but what do you do for the other 10 minutes of the track? (OK, maybe it just feels that long...)

Seriously, there's what, 20 breaks in it? Too many - you can't get any sequences going, you pretty much have to plan your next break when the previous one finishes, no time to do anyhting but set the next one up. It's basically just a series of breaks occasionally interspersed with some music.

I prefer to have only 2 or 3 breaks in a track, that gives it more freshness and variety to my mind.

[under par]

Yes, but what do you do for the other 10 minutes of the track? (OK, maybe it just feels that long...)

Seriously, there's what, 20 breaks in it? Too many - you can't get any sequences going, you pretty much have to plan your next break when the previous one finishes, no time to do anyhting but set the next one up. It's basically just a series of breaks occasionally interspersed with some music.

I prefer to have only 2 or 3 breaks in a track, that gives it more freshness and variety to my mind.

It is just a really FUN track that should be played only every once in a while. :yeah:

[Gojive]

It is just a really FUN track that should be played only every once in a while. :yeah:

:yeah: :yeah:

OK, so you may not be able to do so many standard Ceroc/MJ sequencies to it, but you can have a real fun dance to it! :waycool: . From the multiple breaks with great snappy 'bang bang" style body movements, the varying tempo through the track, to the great finale - all in all, to me it's a great piece of powerful theatrical music, that I can disappear into and escape from the more regular stuff for a short while IMHO. But I can understand why others wouldn't like it :cheers:

[Chef]

Well I guess the feeling with regards to All that Jazz is that it is, like Marmite - you either love it or you hate it. Personally I love it so much that I have a favorite version (by Ute Lemper) but a breathy version that Peter Phillips has is really starting to grow on me.

This whole thread was started off by someone who said that they were a relatively inexpereinced dancer that wanted to learn how to use breaks. So all this talk about the relative merits of such a break heavy and theatrical peice of music is a bit academic to them. This is why I didn't include it in my "music to practice breaks to" list despite my love for it, because I felt it tough enough to put a beginner off rather than encourage them.

Whenever faced with a new challenge you have to go out of your "comfort zone". For the thread starter and anyone else wanting to use breaks (or aquire any new skill) you just have to accept that it is going to be very frustrating going from an area that you feel proficient to try things where you feel a complete klutz. The temptation is to just retreat into your comfort zone and not try anymore. My experience is that just when you are near to the point of giving up with something you suddenly get it. So if you find you can't handle the breaks of "all that Jazz" I would say keep trying - maybe you will come to love it when you find you and your partner hitting the acent points.

From another thread on "does doing weekenders change your dancing" a point was made that weekenders improve your dancing because you have a greater willingness to experiment there than you do at your home venue. The comments were that at your home venue that doing something new or different is "just showing off". This something about our culture I find baffling. Why on earth do we have the phrase "too clever by half"?

So can we just live an let live.

If you can do breaks (or spinning etc), or are trying too it is not "just showing off" it is just that we love dancing and just want to do it better.

People that try and fail have at least tried.

People that try and succeed are not "just showing off" or "too clever by half" they just had the combination of effort and talent that allowed them to succeed.

Wanting to excel at something is not being elitist. Trying to stop others is.

NOTE. These last comments are not aimed at anyone in particular. Just that in general, I have picked up from the forum the recurring theme that there is an "us and them" feeling. I am in neither camp - I just dance and want to be better next year than I am now.

[David Bailey]

in general, I have picked up from the forum the recurring theme that there is an "us and them" feeling.
Oh, I'm definitely in the "us" camp - it's just that everyone else is in the "them" camp... :innocent:

:yeah: :yeah: :yeah: to all your points, by the way :)

[Rebecca]

If you can do breaks (or spinning etc), or are trying too it is not "just showing off" it is just that we love dancing and just want to do it better.


So glad you have said that Chef. I know it's slightly off topic, but I constantly find that I hold back when I'm at my home venue as a result of not wishing to appear to be trying too hard / too showy etc.

Perhaps one reason that musical interpretation is difficult to pick up as a relative beginner is that until you reach the stage where you are travelling to different venues / weekenders etc you daren't give it a go, and the more experienced dancers that one watches for inspiration are perhaps holding back too in fear of disapproval??? :(

I say let's all give it our all, anywhere, anytime and hope that the inspiration spreads :clap:

[Mie]

I say let's all give it our all, anywhere, anytime and hope that the inspiration spreads :clap:

:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:
Couldn't have put it better myself!

Nice to see you on the weekend, btw. Only sorry we didn't have more time to chat. Or.. indead... dance OTT together.

[jivecat]

I know it's slightly off topic, but I constantly find that I hold back when I'm at my home venue as a result of not wishing to appear to be trying too hard / too showy etc.

Perhaps one reason that musical interpretation is difficult to pick up as a relative beginner is that until you reach the stage where you are travelling to different venues / weekenders etc you daren't give it a go, and the more experienced dancers that one watches for inspiration are perhaps holding back too in fear of disapproval??? :(

I say let's all give it our all, anywhere, anytime and hope that the inspiration spreads :clap:

:yeah: I feel a bit uncomfortable at doing anything that might attract judgemental attention at my home venue, but if I'm in the right mood, what the hell!? At weekenders there's no need to worry, as I can give it my all safe in the knowledge that everyone else will be gazing in wonder at Victor or some other star in the MJ firmament.

[Mr Cool]

[QUOTE=Chef]Well I guess the feeling with regards to All that Jazz is that it is, like Marmite - you either love it or you hate it.

For me all that Jazz is one of the best tracks to dance too.. All beginners should play and dance to it to get a understanding of basic musicality. Musicality is what real dance is about. Breaks and hesatations are fun why do so many modern jivers ignore them? I believe there are essentlialy two types of dancer. Talented Dancers who go with the music for them music is everything, and moves people that ignore all music and think moves are king, sadly 90% of dancers fit into the moves catergory.

Feel the music lead her with style make her smile.

At first you learn moves then one day you learn to dance it is so different,
:waycool: :waycool: :waycool: :waycool:

[Whitebeard]

Feel the music lead her with style make her smile.

At first you learn moves then one day you learn to dance it is so different,
I'd like to feel I was going that way. But sometimes I can't help feeling I'm just making a fool (an old fool) of myself.

[MartinHarper]

I hate it when people dance through breaks and sometimes I just stand still, especially if it's a gentle or uncertain lead and I think I can get away with it. How naughty is this?

Bad follower! No cookie!
(see this thread: Its official: ladies can lead a break (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1113))