The "No row"

[David Bailey]

Apparently, the No Row refers to the group row of women (usually women, apparently), at, ahem, certain venues. These women sit on the stage, in a row, and are "well-known" (not my words, I'm just the messenger) for saying "No" when asked for a dance.

Hence, the "No Row".

It's a new one on me, I must admit - anybody else come across this phrase?

(P.S. I'm too little to sit on the stage, so I'm not a No-Rower :) )

[Rhythm King]

Apparently, the No Row refers to the group row of women (usually women, apparently), at, ahem, certain venues. These women sit on the stage, in a row, and are "well-known" (not my words, I'm just the messenger) for saying "No" when asked for a dance.

Hence, the "No Row".

It's a new one on me, I must admit - anybody else come across this phrase?

(P.S. I'm too little to sit on the stage, so I'm not a No-Rower :) )

That would be "Refusal Row", front left of the stage at Hammersmith in days of yore... Only way to get accepted was to "audition" by showing off outrageously with a suitable and understanding friend! Then you might just get an acceptance. Ah I remember it well... :tears:

[Rebecca]

That's appauling - why on earth would anyone want to sit around on a stage instead of dancing :confused: ??

I'm familiar with the concept of 'auditioning' before experienced men began asking me to dance, but I rather hoped this was something that happened as new people are introduced to new venue's / crowds. If I thought that there was some sort of cattle-market assessment going on I think I would stay away. I've auditioned too many times in the past. Ceroc is about having fun. . . isn't it?

And the fact that it's mostly women - shame on them :angry:

[bigdjiver]

That's appauling - why on earth would anyone want to sit around on a stage instead of dancing :confused: ??It was not "instead of dancing", it was knowing a better offer would be forthcoming. A lot of people travelled long distances to Hammersmith freestyles to get a better quality of dancing, and had to contend with local opportunists who abused the "they don't say no" principle. Few people would expect anyone to dance with unskilled weirdos in a very crowded environment, and a lot of ladies followed a "better safe than sorry" policy.

[David Bailey]

Hmmm, I didn't realise this was in place elsewhere - it wasn't Hammersmith the guy was talking about either (but you're close :wink: ).


A lot of people travelled long distances to Hammersmith freestyles to get a better quality of dancing, and had to contend with local opportunists who abused the "they don't say no" principle.
Well, without getting into a rant about combining the phrases "quality of dancing" and "Hammersmith" in a single sentence, I really don't like this elitist approach.


Few people would expect anyone to dance with unskilled weirdos in a very crowded environment, and a lot of ladies followed a "better safe than sorry" policy.
Well, I'd say "dancing with unskilled weirdos" is part of the essential Ceroc experience :)

Although I'd possibly state it as more "dancing with beginners, because advanced people danced with you when you were a beginner"... As for weirdos, I don't really think all beginners are weirdos... :whistle:

MJ is potluck; that's the charm and the strength of it.

So put me firmly in the "anti-no-row" camp.

[bigdjiver]

...Well, without getting into a rant about combining the phrases "quality of dancing" and "Hammersmith" in a single sentence, I really don't like this elitist approach.... Well, I'd say "dancing with unskilled weirdos" is part of the essential Ceroc experience :) My info is old. Allegedly Hammersmith was known outside MJ circles as a place where you could get to grope a babe cheaply. It was only a few, but it only takes one to ruin a night.


Although I'd possibly state it as more "dancing with beginners, because advanced people danced with you when you were a beginner"... As for weirdos, I don't really think all beginners are weirdos... :whistle: Maybe it is luck, but I have not met any weirdo beginners. I am talking about people who apparantly had no intention of taking dance lessons. I met up with several ladies who had been more than once, and never taken a lesson, and seemed to be using the event as a pick-up joint. Hammersmith when I used to go was very congested and a big test of floorcraft, and not a good place for a first dance. I repeat - old info.


MJ is potluck; that's the charm and the strength of it.
So put me firmly in the "anti-no-row" camp. :yeah:
but circumstances alter cases.

[David Bailey]

My info is old. Allegedly Hammersmith was known outside MJ circles as a place where you could get to grope a babe cheaply. It was only a few, but it only takes one to ruin a night.
Ahh, I understand. And :eek: :sick:


I met up with several ladies who had been more than once, and never taken a lesson, and seemed to be using the event as a pick-up joint.
:mad: I never meet these women :sad:


Hammersmith when I used to go was very congested and a big test of floorcraft, and not a good place for a first dance.
Hasn't changed.

Love that phrase "a big test of floorcraft", by the way :grin:

[Rebecca]

Ahh we're all friends again :flower:

[Andreas]

Apparently, the No Row refers to the group row of women (usually women, apparently), at, ahem, certain venues. These women sit on the stage, in a row, and are "well-known" (not my words, I'm just the messenger) for saying "No" when asked for a dance.

Hence, the "No Row".

It's a new one on me, I must admit - anybody else come across this phrase?

(P.S. I'm too little to sit on the stage, so I'm not a No-Rower :) )


I haven't come across that phrase before either. However, there are people that tend to turn down when asked for dances rather frequently. The soothing thought should be that usually these people (male and female!) enjoy their mediocracy among themselves. If you look at who are the most arrogant people, you will easily see that these are people who think they are fabulous without a lot of substance to support that claim. It is a sad group with medium abilities that thinks they are too good for some dancers. Go and ask the better dancers, they are more fun to dance with and won't turn you down either.

This is something that I used to stress in class and should be done regularly: "You are never to good for another dancer. If you feel the other person is below your standard then maybe you need to work on your ability to accommodate and dance to the level of the other person."

:flower:

(This does not address harmful/dangerous dancing or any GOOD reasons.)

[David Bailey]

I haven't come across that phrase before either. However, there are people that tend to turn down when asked for dances rather frequently.
My guideline is, if I get refused, I don't ask twice in one night, and if I get refused "x" number of times in a row ("x" varies a lot!) by someone I don't know, then I just don't bother in future. I used to stress, but since I applied that guideline I worry much less about refusers.


The soothing thought should be that usually these people (male and female!) enjoy their mediocracy among themselves. If you look at who are the most arrogant people, you will easily see that these are people who think they are fabulous without a lot of substance to support that claim. It is a sad group with medium abilities that thinks they are too good for some dancers. Go and ask the better dancers, they are more fun to dance with and won't turn you down either.
I can only say :yeah: :yeah: :yeah: to that.


"You are never to good for another dancer. If you feel the other person is below your standard then maybe you need to work on your ability to accommodate and dance to the level of the other person."
Absolutely; you can have a fun dance with almost anyone at almost any level. If I ever turn into a serial refuser, just shoot me.


Ahh we're all friends again :flower:
Stick around, the day is yet young. :wink:

[JazzBug]

To be honest I tend to ‘charity’ dance (awful phrase I know) during the week and then cash in on the best dances at the freestyles. Is that bad??

The ‘No Row’ sound like a rather repugnant bunch :mad:, I think I’d steer clear on principle. Unfortunately it’s a universal principle, here in Southampton the quality of dancing takes a nose dive but we still have a hard core of dance snobs. They're usual repetitive at best and at worst I usual want to slap them for crimes again dance.

Drop them anywhere north of Fleet Services and they would be entirely lost on the floor.

I doubt they remember (or care) how it felt when they first danced with someone they really admired.

Dancing with noobies and improvers should be something everyone does although I know from first hand experience that it can get in long bouts.

[David Bailey]

To be honest I tend to ‘charity’ dance (awful phrase I know)
I've also heard it described as "mercy dance". Either way, it's a patronising phrase.

during the week and then cash in on the best dances at the freestyles. Is that bad??
Yes, you are evil. :)

I dunno, it's not an easy question, and I'm sure has been discussed to death here already. I'm certainly not going to dogmatically insist "you must always dance with everyone who asks you" (although I do, 99% of the time), and I certainly wouldn't attempt to say who you should and shouldn't ask to dance.

However, there are extremes of behaviour that people exhibit: serial refusal is one of them, and something I also find repugnant. If you don't want to dance, then sit down or go away from the dance floor - otherwise, to my mind, if you're on the edge of the floor, you are signalling you're available to dance with. And yes, I think this includes sitting on the stage.


The ‘No Row’ sound like a rather repugnant bunch :mad:, I think I’d steer clear on principle. Unfortunately it’s a universal principle, here in Southampton the quality of dancing takes a nose dive but we still have a hard core of dance snobs. They're usual repetitive at best and at worst I usual want to slap them for crimes against dance.

Drop them anywhere north of Fleet Services and they would be entirely lost on the floor.

:confused: Is there a real change in atmosphere at non-London events then? I confess, almost all my dancing has been in the Big Smoke, so I just assumed it'd be more or less the same everywhere...

[Zuhal]

Generally I am a never say no kind of guy but I was challenged recently by a lady in the rotation asking why I never asked her anymore....

Truth was that this lady is lovely to dance with and kind of on a level with me but I find her seriously and distractingly attractive. Since I am only there to dance I conquer the primeval reaction she creates by not going near her.

Try explaining that!!

Zuhal

[Cruella]

Generally I am a never say no kind of guy but I was challenged recently by a lady in the rotation asking why I never asked her anymore....

Truth was that this lady is lovely to dance with and kind of on a level with me but I find her seriously and distractingly attractive. Since I am only there to dance I conquer the primeval reaction she creates by not going near her.

Try explaining that!!

Zuhal

Oh that explains everything, i now know why i seem to do all the asking! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

I stand by the left hand side of the stage at Hammersmith whenever i go there. Does that presume i am part of 'refusal row'? It is very rare that i turn down a dance. I don't think it is predominantly women, i have been turned down many a time by men who seem to think they are part of the elite dancing crowd. :sick: If a guy refuses me twice (within no particular timespan) then i will not ask him again unless he redeems himself by asking me first. I'm sorry to say it is more common around London than out of the city.
Surely the dancing is about having fun and not worrying that a certain partner is 'not good enough for us' I want to dance with the man who smiles and makes me smile. :D

[JazzBug]

:confused: Is there a real change in atmosphere at non-London events then? I confess, almost all my dancing has been in the Big Smoke, so I just assumed it'd be more or less the same everywhere...

There's very little to be found certainly in Southampton and the immediate surrounding areas. On a good nice we could muster some impressive dancers but most tend to migrate north. Certainly very little to inspire me round here.

I went to Twyford last Saturday and was amazed at the quality of dancer and music! I felt I could really learn something by watching those guys.

My biggest gripe is the music! I’ve tried so often to give DJs CDs but very rarely hear anything i hand over. Even stuff i know works really well at other nights.

If the music was more inspiring we might eak a bit more musicality out of people, instead i get track after track of euro-pop rubbish (conservative wording) and stuff which I’ve heard for the past 8 years. And before i stick my foot in it (I don’t want to upset some of the better independent venues) I’m talking largely about the company that dominates a big chunk of the south coast between Portsmouth and Bournemouth that shall remain nameless.

Rant over. Sorry about that! :mad: :mad: :mad: I feel better now.

[David Bailey]

Oh that explains everything, i now know why i seem to do all the asking! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Indeed - clearly, you're too attractive for your own good.

Seriously: Zuhal? You're nuts, man.


I stand by the left hand side of the stage at Hammersmith whenever i go there. Does that presume i am part of 'refusal row'?
Don't ask me, this is all new to me. I only cottoned on to the fact that some of the "good dancers" (Hmmm...) are often clumped in the stage area myself a year ago. I'm just slow.


It is very rare that i turn down a dance. I don't think it is predominantly women, i have been turned down many a time by men who seem to think they are part of the elite dancing crowd. :sick: If a guy refuses me twice (within no particular timespan) then i will not ask him again unless he redeems himself by asking me first. I'm sorry to say it is more common around London than out of the city.
Surely the dancing is about having fun and not worrying that a certain partner is 'not good enough for us' I want to dance with the man who smiles and makes me smile. :D
:yeah:
Also, I'm sure none of the forumettas are "No row"-ers. :flower:

Just goes to show how fragile our egos all are... Comes of being geeks, don't you know? :innocent:

[ducasi]

Truth was that this lady is lovely to dance with and kind of on a level with me but I find her seriously and distractingly attractive. Since I am only there to dance I conquer the primeval reaction she creates by not going near her. :yeah:
I've felt a bit like that with a few girls, but then I noticed that a lot of other guys were avoiding them too, maybe for the same reason. So I've now decided not to fear asking attractive girls to dance with me.

As I result I'll usually get a great dance, and a good excuse if I mess up. ("Sorry, your smile dazzled me there for a moment. :grin:")

(I'll also assume that's why some girls don't ask me to dance. Right? ... Yeah?? ... What??? ... No???? :tears: )

[Robin]

snipped

If the music was more inspiring we might eak a bit more musicality out of people, instead i get track after track of euro-pop rubbish (conservative wording) and stuff which I’ve heard for the past 8 years.

Ahh .. he's obviously not been to Finchley then has he David ? :wink:

On topic though, whilst DJing it gets quite difficult to dance with people who ask - they even make a point of coming up on stage and asking too ......nows a good time to make a general apology I suppose !

[Minnie M]

There's very little to be found certainly in Southampton and the immediate surrounding areas. ........./snip/....My biggest gripe is the music! I’ve tried so often to give DJs CDs but very rarely hear anything i hand over.
Have you tried Kelly's MNP nights at Minstead Hall, I love her music :worthy: she is IMHO the best DJ you have your area. A mixture of Swing & R&B I travel all the way from Brighton for her nights (she has a dance in Totton this Saturday - I would have gone, but going somewhere else this weekend :whistle: )

[spindr]

Have you tried Kelly's MNP nights at Minstead Hall, I love her music :worthy: she is IMHO the best DJ you have your area. A mixture of Swing & R&B I travel all the way from Brighton for her nights (she has a dance in Totton this Saturday - I would have gone, but going somewhere else this weekend :whistle: )

Well, I reckon it's a close call between Kelly and Andy Kale (especially when he's just playing swing) :)

I quite often travel down to Saturday Showcases and Friday Freestyles down at the Admiral Lord Nelson school at Southsea (check out the details on Lyndas List). Some great dancers there -- and I've never had a problem getting a dance :whistle:

SpinDr.

P.S. There's also "salsa by the sea" at Southsea and Gary's Lindy hop classes are around there -- so it's not a bad place to wander along to.

[David Bailey]

Ahh .. he's obviously not been to Finchley then has he David ?
Well, I think we can forgive him (? - getting paranoid about gender now after the Lou Incident) for not going from Southampton to North London on a weekday night...


On topic though, whilst DJing it gets quite difficult to dance with people who ask - they even make a point of coming up on stage and asking too ......nows a good time to make a general apology I suppose !
Hmmm, the Dancing DJ question, I never really thought about it much. I just kind of assumed they sat behind their decks all the time :)

OK, new thread time...

[David Bailey]

If the music was more inspiring we might eak a bit more musicality out of people, instead i get track after track of euro-pop rubbish (conservative wording) and stuff which I’ve heard for the past 8 years.
This is exactly why some decent feedback mechanisms for venues would be a Good Idea.


Rant over. Sorry about that! :mad: :mad: :mad: I feel better now.
That's what we're here for :hug:
:)

[JazzBug]

Have you tried Kelly's MNP nights at Minstead Hall, I love her music :worthy: she is IMHO the best DJ you have your area. A mixture of Swing & R&B

I'll definitely give it a go! Thx a million. :grin:

Maybe i should stop complaining and start looking a bit harder :yum:

PS everyone seen the amazing feet on http://www.jordantatianaswing.com!! watch them go!! :worthy: :worthy: :worthy: i have new idols.

[Lory]

On topic though, whilst DJing it gets quite difficult to dance with people who ask - they even make a point of coming up on stage and asking too ......nows a good time to make a general apology I suppose !
Ahh but then, you always make us feel extra special when you do that spectacular leap off the stage and grab us for a quick dance, even though we never get to finish the track! :na:

[David Bailey]

From another thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=125729&postcount=16)


DJ: I had a go at a few on the "no row" - about 50% refusal rate. Moved about 5 metres from the stage - 100% acceptance, and 100% enjoyable dances.
Holy sh*t! 50% !?!?! :angry:
(I'm assuming you asked more than 2 here, if not, ignore me ranting...)

Who do these women think they are? I do better than 50% even in Columbian-heavy salsa places - 1 in 2 refusals is terrible for a Ceroc venue.

I'll admit, I was sceptical about reporting this "no-row" thing, but I'm somewhat surprised to find out I was correct... Honestly, this sort of behaviour is Evil. In fact, I'm so steamed, I'm outing the initial No-row venue I reported on - it's the Cashbah (Friday nights, S Kensington).

Ladies, please think of our fragile egos - if you don't want to dance, just get well away from the flippin' dancefloor, OK?

Grrrr....

[Purple Sparkler]

Who do these women think they are? I do better than 50% even in Columbian-heavy salsa places - 1 in 2 refusals is terrible for a Ceroc venue.


I completely agree, and must reiterate something: If you ask me and I turn you down, it will be because I'm completely effing exhausted and want to sit out- but if you then come and ask me at the end of that song, I'll be glad to have a dance with you.

The only people I avoid dancing with are guys I know to be really sleazy- ones who I feel entirely uncomfortable dancing with. So I just use a lack of eye-contact to avoid them asking me. :blush: But I honestly only do that if someone makes me feel really awkward. And actually, if I feel comfortable and can trust the partner not to cross any lines OFF the dancefloor (this being what puts me off close moves ON the dancefloor), then I'm more than happy to do close moves (as Dizzy will testify, having seen me at Hammersmith and indeed last night at a pub on Finchley Road with our communal dance bitch).

But you wouldn't catch me on the 'no row'- I know what it feels like to be turned down (I still get turned down even though it's a very long time since I was a beginner), so unless I have a very good reason (see above) I'm always well up for a dance.

[CJ]

Truth was that this lady is lovely to dance with and kind of on a level with me but I find her seriously and distractingly attractive. Since I am only there to dance I conquer the primeval reaction she creates by not going near her.

Zuhal

I can SOOOOOOOOOO relate to that.

Once, not so bad: and once REALLY bad: there have been two dancers with whom I have clicked on the floor, whom I have found to be so breath-takingly, ASTOUNDINGLY attractive that I had to avoid dancing with them. I, too, am only there for the dancing. :tears:

[Andy McGregor]

I love the idea that we call those stuck-up dancers sitting on the stage the 'No Row'. Are they all ladies?

Seven or eight years ago in Brighton there was a 'No Hatch' on a Tuesday night: there was a hatch which is probably used to serve food at other times and all the 'great' female dancers congregated around that. I started dancing in the same venue on a Monday but after a few weeks thought I'd try Tuesdays. The first night I went to the Tuesday class I got turned down by every single one of the 'No Hatch Hot-Shots' - as they'd never seen me before they didn't even know how bad I was* :tears: But I think they only said 'yes' if they knew how good you were ...

In those days there was a sort of uniform for the female dancer that thought she was good: it was a short circle skirt, and a strappy to or tight t-shirt. And most of them had a pony-tail and didn't smile much - which made them easy to avoid asking once you'd worked it out.

Is there an easy way to spot the 'No Row Refuser' if they're not in their usual station by the stage? Do they have a particular way of dressing or a way of doing their hair, etc?

*I was quite bad :blush:

[Martin]

I read this thread as I thought "No row" refered to those infuriating partners who insist on telling you what to do as you go up and down the row...
= No way, danced with you in the "row" and you "****ed me off"...

Get it often,even though been dancing MJ for 11 + years, partners can't help themselves to offer unrequested advice - my thoughts - no way, got you in the rows...

[MartinHarper]

An evil person would go dance on the stage, preferably with an extravagant "kicky" style... :)

[Lucy Locket]

This is something that I used to stress in class and should be done regularly: "You are never to good for another dancer. If you feel the other person is below your standard then maybe you need to work on your ability to accommodate and dance to the level of the other person."

:flower:

(This does not address harmful/dangerous dancing or any GOOD reasons.)[/QUOTE]


Hear Hear!!!!!! I was turned down by 3 men in a row at Hammersmith, put me off asking :devil: . I never refuse a dance no matter what level the man is, we were all beginners once !!

[MouthoftheSouth]

Generally I am a never say no kind of guy but I was challenged recently by a lady in the rotation asking why I never asked her anymore....

Truth was that this lady is lovely to dance with and kind of on a level with me but I find her seriously and distractingly attractive. Since I am only there to dance I conquer the primeval reaction she creates by not going near her.

Try explaining that!!


:yeah: :yeah:

Has anyone got a good answer for this..er...."problem"??!!

[MouthoftheSouth]

I find dancing with beginners is a bloody good way to improve my leading!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[David Bailey]

I love the idea that we call those stuck-up dancers sitting on the stage the 'No Row'. Are they all ladies?
Apparently - admittedly, this was all relayed to me second-hand, but it related specifically to ladies, yes. Not that some guys aren't guilty, but I'm less worried about that as I don't usually ask them :innocent:

Other terms could be "sit-uppers" / "stuck-uppers" :)


The first night I went to the Tuesday class I got turned down by every single one of the 'No Hatch Hot-Shots'
:worthy: I'm amazed you had the guts to keep asking - I usually give up after one failure...

[David Bailey]

:yeah: :yeah:

Has anyone got a good answer for this..er...."problem"??!!
Y-fronts, not boxers. :grin:

[Dizzy]

From another thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=125729&postcount=16)


Holy sh*t! 50% !?!?! :angry:
(I'm assuming you asked more than 2 here, if not, ignore me ranting...)

Who do these women think they are? I do better than 50% even in Columbian-heavy salsa places - 1 in 2 refusals is terrible for a Ceroc venue.

Grrrr....

I completely agree. Why pay money to go to a ceroc night if you are going to stand by the stage all night?

Purple Sparkler and I went to Hammersmith on saturday and didn't refuse anyone that asked us - even a complete beginner who had turned up with a friend.
Saying that though, we were towards the back of the hall so nowhere near the stage!! :grin:

I think it is bordering on rude to turn down a person without a totally valid excuse (i.e. toilet, drink, exhaustion).

You will never catch us (PS and me) in the 'No Row'!! :clap: :flower:

[Purple Sparkler]

I completely agree. Why pay money to go to a ceroc night if you are going to stand by the stage all night?

Purple Sparkler and I went to Hammersmith on saturday and didn't refuse anyone that asked us - even a complete beginner who had turned up with a friend.
Saying that though, we were towards the back of the hall so nowhere near the stage!! :grin:

I think it is bordering on rude to turn down a person without a totally valid excuse (i.e. toilet, drink, exhaustion).

You will never catch us (PS and me) in the 'No Row'!! :clap: :flower:

Bordering on? It IS rude, no argument.

I think perhaps we should start infiltrating the 'no row' and giving those stuck-up [edited because if you can't say anything nice...] our best Paddington Hard Stares as we get up to dance. Either that, or what might be better- start a Yes Row right opposite them- men AND women, because in my experience there is an unspoken 'no row' of men too- if a girl they don't know is standing near the stage, they don't ask her to dance.

[stewart38]

It was not "instead of dancing", it was knowing a better offer would be forthcoming. A lot of people travelled long distances to Hammersmith freestyles to get a better quality of dancing, and had to contend with local opportunists who abused the "they don't say no" principle. Few people would expect anyone to dance with unskilled weirdos in a very crowded environment, and a lot of ladies followed a "better safe than sorry" policy.


Im afraid the "no row" at Hammersmith is a ledgend itself

I remember as a 'newbie' with only 4 or 5yrs of dancing have a few rejections along the front stage. As a beaten man I went away and dance with my fellow blebs towards the back

It does however over the years seems to have shrunk (or ive got better). tends to be in top left area

I leave them alone most times but still occassionally chance my luck

ps i dont see myself as a unskilled weirdo

[Andy McGregor]

ps i dont see myself as a unskilled weirdoSorry, can't resist it.

What kind of weirdo do you see yourself as?

[stewart38]

Sorry, can't resist it.

What kind of weirdo do you see yourself as?

A semi skilled weirdo :nice:

I think im going into big brother next yr as Jack Dee

[Robin]

A semi skilled weirdo :nice:

I think im going into big brother next yr as Jack Dee

Don't worry Andy, you're safe ... no challenges for the crown yet!

hehe