Contact

[LMC]

Went to a workshop yesterday and the teacher taught a different (and apparently new) version of the slo comb to the one I was shown first time round - with the leader putting his hand on the follower's arm instead of the hip - apparently owing to 'complaints'. And we all had this big long discussion about the whole 'hand on hip' thing (also relevant to first move and probably a lot of others that I can't remember or don't know yet).

BUT - I actually find it easier to 'follow' a lead from a nudge on my hip - maybe that's because I'm inexperienced? I've only been dancing a few weeks and still find it a bit embarrassing to look a strange man in the eye on some of the "closer" moves (NO comments on 'strange' please :rofl:). But I'm rapidly getting over it - especially in the last week or so as I'm getting some freestyle experience. And if I can "get over it" (the embarrassment factor that is) then anyone should be able to! It's just dancing innit? - and if people can't stand the heat...

Any thoughts?

[Gadget]

one or two :wink:

New Verson of "Slow Comb" (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4130)
What's happened to the Comb? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5098)
and I think that these have some discussion on it as well:
Recent Changes (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4987)
Feedback on Recent Changes (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2425)
Unwelcome Close Moves (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3000)

[LMC]

:blush: - note to self - scroll down beyond first page next time - thanks Gadget

But having looked at those threads, I think the question of "get over it" still stands? (i.e. my main question was related to getting over the 'embarrassment factor' rather than whether hand on hip is a good or a bad thing)

[Dreadful Scathe]

with the leader putting his hand on the follower's arm instead of the hip - apparently owing to 'complaints'.


There'll be complaints about hand holding next :) People that complain about that sort of thing are probably complaining about the way it was done or the person doing it, not the hand on hip per se. However, i suppose at a workshop, a variation is fine.

[David Bailey]

But having looked at those threads, I think the question of "get over it" still stands? (i.e. my main question was related to getting over the 'embarrassment factor' rather than whether hand on hip is a good or a bad thing)
It's a good point; OK, we talk about it a lot, but that's because it's always relevant. Dancing is a contact sport; but that doesn't mean it has to be embarassing, and certainly never ever should mean you feel uncomfortable. It's supposed to be fun, not awkward - especially true for Modern Jive dancing. Fun is the most important part of it.

I've put hands on hips, shoulders, arms, hair ( : ) and other parts of my partner's body when dancing. But, and this is the big one, not with someone I don't know well, and not with a beginner; it'd be too easy to misinterpret this kind of move. If in doubt, as a leader, I don't do that sort of close move ("UCP" moves = "Up Close and Personal"); it's not as if there's a shortage of other moves to do.

Having said that, in terms of looking your partner in your eye, that's probably good practice anyway, if nothing else then for posture, and to make it easier for you to follow based on visual clues. So please, eye contact!

And yes, I'm in the "new version of slo(w) comb is crap" camp :)

[Cruella]

[QUOTE=DavidJames]
Having said that, in terms of looking your partner in your eye, that's probably good practice anyway, if nothing else then for posture, and to make it easier for you to follow based on visual clues. So please, eye contact!
QUOTE]


If you find eye contact embarrasing, as it is very intimate. Look at your partners nose instead!! They may think you've got bad eyesight though :rofl:

[LMC]

I've put hands on hips, shoulders, arms, hair ( : ) and other parts of my partner's body when dancing. But, and this is the big one, not with someone I don't know well, and not with a beginner; it'd be too easy to misinterpret this kind of move. If in doubt, as a leader, I don't do that sort of close move ("UCP" moves = "Up Close and Personal"); it's not as if there's a shortage of other moves to do.

The only way for a beginner to get used to UCP is to practise, and it's all very well practising with other beginners, but they are sometimes more embarrassed than I am (British stiff upper lip and all that, tsk - I got told by a guy earlier in the week not to stand so close - at a point when the next move was a turn and there was plenty of space for me to turn!). So if I'm dancing with someone more experienced, then as long as UCP moves are 'balanced' with others and you're not a yanker, stinker or sleaze then gimme gimme gimme.


And yes, I'm in the "new version of slo(w) comb is crap" camp :)

Having been taught the "original" version only 2 or 3 weeks ago and the "new" version yesterday, I confess I thought it was really really new (which is why I didn't check too far back on threads, sorry)

[Chef]

But having looked at those threads, I think the question of "get over it" still stands? (i.e. my main question was related to getting over the 'embarrassment factor' rather than whether hand on hip is a good or a bad thing)

Firstly - Hello and welcome newkid.

Many people who are new to social dancing are embarrased by close personal contact because (IMHO) their only previous experience has been that it is something that has led to a sexual relationship. The mental link between these two things is very hard to break and some people never "get over it".

The dance teachers are at great pains to point out how moves should be danced so that contact is avoided with those areas normally reserved for a sexual partner. So we should all know where the demarkation line between unacceptable points of contact and those required for the dance are.

The problem comes when the proximity required for the dance is something that you find you cannot bear and any contact beyond holding of each others fingertips makes you uncomfortable.

There have been two programmes on TV in the past few years where this problem has been shown up. One was "Charlie Dimmock goes latin" and the other was an episode of "faking it" where a tomboy had to fake it as an ultra sexy latin american dancer. Suddenly these peoples outer skin of confidence fell away when they had to be in close non sexual contact with someone they were only working with. This was a real barrier to their progress and it was only when they had been sent on an acting workshop did they manage to "get over it".

Just by dancing each week will desensitise you to this embarrasement - but if it is really something that is not getting better then maybe some sort of acting workshop may be the way for you to go (many theatres run these as part of their youth program).

The way that I think about it is that dancing is just acting to music. For the length of the dance you try to adopt the character that the music has chosen for you and when you are acting the music provides the script. When the dance is over you become yourself again. Contact during a dance does not make any promises to your partner. You walk away as free and uncommited as you started it.

[Gadget]

A common thing I've seen is that people tend to "Think" they are doing moves more UCP than they actually are: they lean in with the upper body - almost a challenge and assertive defining of personal space: "I want to get close to you, but you're not getting close to me!". Looks naff and can feel quite invasive.


I think that two things need to change before moves can be danced (well) closley:

Firstly, be comfortable with your own space and allow other people to enter within it. (This is more an 'expansion' of your space to include your partner rather than closing it down so that folk have to get really close before they hit it.)

Secondly, the "Close" bit is with the thighs and hips; you can lean back to create an elegant illusion of more space. Not necissaraly having contact between you, but reducing the distance between you and keeping a more "upright" stance.

[David Bailey]

If you find eye contact embarrasing, as it is very intimate. Look at your partners nose instead!! They may think you've got bad eyesight though
Or that they've got a really big spot on their nose :)


So if I'm dancing with someone more experienced, then as long as UCP moves are 'balanced' with others and you're not a yanker, stinker or sleaze then gimme gimme gimme.
Ooerr missus :)


Having been taught the "original" version only 2 or 3 weeks ago and the "new" version yesterday, I confess I thought it was really really new (which is why I didn't check too far back on threads, sorry)
There was a semi-plausible rationale behind the change as I recall (can't be bothered to check the facts, much easier to rant :) ).

But, to me, if you have to spend X amount of precious dancing / teaching time discussing the rationale, that's a sign that there's something wrong with it. I think that time should be spent learning and, you know, dancing... :whistle:


A common thing I've seen is that people tend to "Think" they are doing moves more UCP than they actually are: they lean in with the upper body
Hmmm, interesting - to me, UCP is lower-body contact. You could do upper body contact as well, but upper body only? :confused: That is weird, and I agree, that'd look naff.

Having said that, it's possible I've been Dancing UCP All Wrong all this time... :tears:

[RogerR]

You actually dont have control of your partner, you are in varying degrees of control of yourself, according to the situation. Dancing, like rugby, is a bodily contact sport, if you really can't stand body contact you can't dance partner dances- stick to handbags.
Beyond that You must come to a private ( and evolving ) idea of what is acceptable and what is not for you. Watching a dancefloor you do not realise at first sight who are UCP as an extension of their relationship and who are UCP as part of one dance.
Some of the jive scene's popular dancing couples are attatched to each other, some are un attatched and some are attatched elsewhere.

[Rebecca]

Dancing, like rugby, is a bodily contact sport,

Maybe this is where the people Gadget has seen "leaning in with the upper body" are getting confused. They're actually attempting some kind of tackle or scrum move.

[tsh]

:blush: - note to self - scroll down beyond first page next time - thanks Gadget

But having looked at those threads, I think the question of "get over it" still stands? (i.e. my main question was related to getting over the 'embarrassment factor' rather than whether hand on hip is a good or a bad thing)

I think the 'getting over it' comes from improving technique (e.g moves where close contact is required for a good lead) and also just through doing things like blues classes, which tend to be a fair bit 'closer' than anything taught at a normal class.

I don't think 'getting over it' particularly changes what is acceptable or not though. It just makes it easier to see where the boundary is!

Sean

[LMC]

Dancing, like rugby, is a bodily contact sport, if you really can't stand body contact you can't dance partner dances- stick to handbags.

:yeah:

And if I can understand that concept after only dancing for two months (salsa/ballroom before 1st ceroc 3 weeks ago), can't anyone? As someone implied on one of the threads Gadget referred to (sorry, haven't got time to check which) it's political correctness gone mad

[bigdjiver]

I have danced with some young ladies who were very "ticklish", and for whom the first move hand on waist was unacceptable contact. (An average of 1 every two years!) I lack the face for "The Comb". so I do not do it in freestyle, but I much preferred the old version.

[MartinHarper]

If I can understand that concept after only dancing for two months, can't anyone?

Some of the folks who have only been dancing for zero months can't. Personally, I'd have 'em all doing Jig Walks and see who runs away screaming, but for some reason Ceroc have a more gentle approach.