Feedback to venue owners

[DianaS]

Ya know I've been dancing now for 1 year 8 months and three days and have never seen any evaluation / feedback forms at venues (except weekenders)
Seems a shame 'cas people's business can often be afected bu all sorts of things and if there isn't a way to tell them except upfront which can cause problems they never know why you stop dancing there.

I would like to see a feedback box form and pens (tied down if necessary) on the desk where fliers are for further events etc

Last night every one I danced with moaned about the venue too full, being kicked, elbowed, no room to dance, too many people. I went home early ( a first) and decided not to dance there again

It struck me this morning that 200 people may had a crap night and 2oo people may be thinking the same thing :sick:

Thanks NG you were lovely...
i hope that your backs not bruised...
sorry you went early so did I :hug:

Sorry Cruella for butting in to say googbye, but I'd been kicked just one time too many :cheers:

OK so whats your thoughts?
Is this just morning after grumpiness
or do we need to do something here? and who??

I did have a few lovely dances btw
but kept turning people down cas it looked like a rugby scrum on the dance floor!
Shame

[Cruella]

Ya know I've been dancing now for 1 year 8 months and three days and have never seen any evaluation / feedback forms at venues (except weekenders)
Seems a shame 'cas people's business can often be afected bu all sorts of things and if there isn't a way to tell them except upfront which can cause problems they never know why you stop dancing there.

I would like to see a feedback box form and pens (tied down if necessary) on the desk where fliers are for further events etc

Last night every one I danced with moaned about the venue too full, being kicked, elbowed, no room to dance, too many people. I went home early ( a first) and decided not to dance there again

It struck me this morning that 200 people may had a crap night and 2oo people may be thinking the same thing :sick:

Thanks NG you were lovely...
i hope that your backs not bruised...
sorry you went early so did I :hug:

Sorry Cruella for butting in to say googbye, but I'd been kicked just one time too many :cheers:

OK so whats your thoughts?
Is this just morning after grumpiness
or do we need to do something here? and who??

I did have a few lovely dances btw
but kept turning people down cas it looked like a rugby scrum on the dance floor!
Shame
There were actually 240 people there last night, far too many for the venue. I have complained to Jon (franchise owner) numerous times that he needs a bigger venue but there doesn't seem to be one in the area. In fact he said last night "haven't seen you for a while" and i explained that although i love the music and floor it's just too busy so puts me off going. I actually sat outside for 1/2 hour to get over all my bumps and bruises and frustration. :tears: Will still go occasionally though because there are some lovely dancers and very friendly people there.
Think a suggestion box is a great idea but there is not always a solution to the complaints.
Good to meet you though Diana. :hug:

[DianaS]

There were actually 240 people there last night, far too many for the venue. I have complained to Jon (franchise owner) numerous times that he needs a bigger venue but there doesn't seem to be one in the area. In fact he said last night "haven't seen you for a while" and i explained that although i love the music and floor it's just too busy so puts me off going. I actually sat outside for 1/2 hour to get over all my bumps and bruises and frustration. :tears: Will still go occasionally though because there are some lovely dancers and very friendly people there.
Think a suggestion box is a great idea but there is not always a solution to the complaints.
Good to meet you though Diana. :hug:
Thanks
but seriously does any one carry feedback forms for punters so we can have a moan and be responded to even when the venue owners are rushed off their feet and we can't catch them??!!

[David Bailey]

Thanks
but seriously does any one carry feedback forms for punters so we can have a moan and be responded to even when the venue owners are rushed off their feet and we can't catch them??!!
I wish...

This has come up as a topic a couple of times recently - Gus suggested it first (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3720), then I asked a similar question (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5387) about feedback mechanisms.

I don't believe either of us got a satisfactory answer. I can only conclude that, with a few honorable exceptions, most venue owners don't really care about the quality of the dance experience, but are just trying to get as many feet-on-floor as possible.

Certainly, there is no structural feedback mechanism, and it looks like there won't be, even in this forum. I even went so far as to post a venue review, but that sunk without a trace :tears:

It's a shame, because, from the previous threads, it's something that works very well when implemented, to improve the dance quality of venues, DJs and teachers. But it probably doesn't directly increase revenue, at least not immediately - possibly because of an overall fear that comments may be too negative and would scare people away, or perhaps it's just seen as too much work. Both arguments are wrong, in my view, but there you go.

Still, at least I got a good sig out of that discussion...

David the ex-reviewer :sad:

[Gus]

I don't believe either of us got a satisfactory answer. I can only conclude that, with a few honorable exceptions, most venue owners don't really care about the quality of the dance experience, but are just trying to get as many feet-on-floor as possible.To date the only two venues I've come across that ever gave any consideration about numbers at a club night is Jango(T Jive) and Ceroc Greenwich. Both have publicly aknowledged that they are committed to keeping floorspace available.

There are three events that immdeatly spring to mind where they just don't give a d*mm about what the punters think (I would love to name them but I'm in enough trouble already without daring to speak the truth in public again :sick: ). Its up to the punters to speak with their feet and simply boycott the venues!

[bigdjiver]

The venue being packed to capacity is just about all of the feedback required. The organiser should put up the admission price and use the extra profits to open other venues, because they obviously know how to do it well.

[Northants Girly]

Unless I've missed somert (which is quite likely) then no-one has named the shameful Sat eve venue that myself, DianaS and Cruella had the misfortune to visit.
Well, I'll stick my neck out and say - it was Solihull!

Without exeption, every dance I had involved either myself or my partner or both being bumped or jostled by other dancers. :(

I (accidentially of course) gave someone's ankle a good kicking and someone else gave my (previously good ankle - as opposed to my bad ankle) a good kicking too. Now I have 2 sore ankles. :sad:

The final straw for me was being elbowed very hard and sharp in the middle of my back and it hurt like hell. :tears:
Then, even though there was still an hour left I went home - I'd had enough. I won't be going back again or encouraging anyone else to make a wasted trip.

However, I don't think punters voting with their feet will solve anything - as if they did do that at this venue, eventually there would be room enough to dance and those there would have a good night's dancing!

Don't ask me what the answer is though :confused:

end of rant

[Lynn]

I'm so glad to hear people complaining about venues being too crowded and not dancing or going home early! I was at a salsa venue last night and went home early for the same reason - it was way too crowded to dance safely and I didn't want an injury 2 weeks before Southport. But I was feeling like I was being overly fussy so thanks for making me not feel so bad! :hug:

The music was way too loud to have any conversations either so I was getting a sore throat trying to talk to friends. I was going to post some feedback on a local salsa forum but someone else posted about how much they had enjoyed it and I thought I would just sound like I was complaining needlessly. :sad:

Though to be honest most salsa dances here are much the same and I don't think the dancers know any better and they think they are getting a good evening's dancing with about 2 hours on a crowded, overheated, very smoky, 'broken glass/spilled drink/chewing gum on the floor' venue. :tears:

[Northants Girly]

I'm so glad to hear people complaining about venues being too crowded and not dancing or going home early! I was at a salsa venue last night and went home early for the same reason - it was way too crowded to dance safely and I didn't want an injury 2 weeks before Southport. But I was feeling like I was being overly fussy so thanks for making me not feel so bad! :hug:

The music was way too loud to have any conversations either so I was getting a sore throat trying to talk to friends. I was going to post some feedback on a local salsa forum but someone else posted about how much they had enjoyed it and I thought I would just sound like I was complaining needlessly. :sad:

Though to be honest most salsa dances here are much the same and I don't think the dancers know any better and they think they are getting a good evening's dancing with about 2 hours on a crowded, overheated, very smoky, 'broken glass/spilled drink/chewing gum on the floor' venue. :tears:Well it sounds like these Salsa dancers you know need educating Lynn!

Go on - make that posting! :hug:

[Gus]

Unless I've missed somert (which is quite likely) then no-one has named the shameful Sat eve venue that myself, DianaS and Cruella had the misfortune to visit.
Well, I'll stick my neck out and say - it was Solihull!This venue has been complained about before .... though I like Jon I'll never go back to that venue again because I think its disgusting to treat punters like that (IMHO).

[Lynn]

Well it sounds like these Salsa dancers you know need educating Lynn!

Go on - make that posting! :hug:Its easier just to not go to the venues - which means not dancing salsa. :tears: The problem is partly that some of the venues have free salsa dances - and no limit at all on numbers - and the venues probably want it to be hot to sell more drinks... So they end up really crowded - and with some non dancers who just happen to be there, and after several drinks get up and 'give it a go' - well you wouldn't expect them to have any floorcraft! The place last night had a decent floor (ie not filthy like in some other salsa venues!) and the music was OK - but still way too crowded to dance!

[MartinHarper]

Well, I'll stick my neck out and say - it was Solihull!

Solihull was pretty bad from a space point of view. My experience was much the same as NG's. I did have some good dances, but I also had some quite stressful dances. I think if it was a local venue, I'd go again, but with it being a fair distance away, I think I'll skip it in the future, unless I hear tell that it's improved.

Mind you, there was plenty of space on the stage.

[Northants Girly]

Solihull was pretty bad from a space point of view. My experience was much the same as NG's. I did have some good dances, but I also had some quite stressful dances. I think if it was a local venue, I'd go again, but with it being a fair distance away, I think I'll skip it in the future, unless I hear tell that it's improved.

Mind you, there was plenty of space on the stage.Ah ah!

That's interesting cos while I was there I thought to myself "There's someone that looks abit like that guy called Martin Harper on the forum"

Dint think Solihull was anywhere near you so assumed it was just a look alike! :rofl:

and dint say hello - sorry!

[Trousers]

Has anyone considered the fire regulations in all of this yet.

Being able to dance comfortably relies on a modicon of space (and awarenes of our fellows on the floor) but there must be a limit on numbers in some of these rooms. Night clubs have limits as do hotel function rooms.
It would be interesting to find out those limits on venues like Solihull and oooh lets say the Corn Exchange, Bedford. I've been to a few night there where the floor was rammed, like Solihull sounded but unlike Solihull there is no spill over room. The dance floor is all you get there. The admissions lady does however tick off one from a seating plan every time some one enters - it looks like a Corn Exchange seating plan from when they have films and shows on too. But there is seemingly no upper limit to the numbers that they will let in.
Also all the Ceroc Central venues use the same seating plan to keep track of numbers in the venue - how that works for smaller venues like Wellingborough heaven only knows.

But my point here is they know how many they have inside surely there has to be a point where safety is compromised which is going to be a legal issue or common sense is compromised.

I've been to Solihull on a week day and seen it brimming at the edges at 120 punters. Why therefore are people still being allowed in when number start approaching 200 as was quoted - Gross Stupidity.


This problem is not going away - there are newcomers (and welcome to them all) at every venue, every day but there are not that many old cerocers hanging up their shoes and taking to Tiddly Winks and Horlicks; the end result is that each week there are more people wishing to dance more often.

Do the Franchise owners need to start offering more than one freestyle in an area maybe even three - I know from my own experience I will and you will travel miles for a freestyle but more often than not it's only because there wasn't a freestyle closer to me or you. Having more choice will I'm sure thin the numbers down at some of the venues. This obviously would cost the franchise more (running two rooms, two DJ's, two Teachers and taxi teams) but maybe the revenue would end up more, possibly as there wouldn't be the subsequent drop off of takings the event after a bunfight one.

Personally I hate crowded dance floors - I loose the little musicality and rythm I have and my repotoire becomes even more limited as I spend all my time avoiding people.

Or you could bring up that old chestnut of tickets I suppose. It's gonna happen one day.

[El Salsero Gringo]

I think each venue licensed for public entertainments has a maximum number of customers allowed, and the limit is set according to the size, number of exits and so on. It should be quite easy to find out what that limit is. If you're feeling troublesome, you could always make a call during an event to the local fire service, and tell them that you think the venue is exceeding its licence. One theatre venue I know of was closed - mid-performance - for twelve months after a snap inspection by the fire brigade one night discovered rubbish piled up outside a fire exit.

[TheTramp]

I don't think that a crowded dance night will ever approach a venue's fire capacity. Dancing takes up much more space than rows of seats (for a performance for example). So while a venue might be crowded for dancing, I can't imagine that it'll ever be near actual capacity.

I imagine it's very difficult for organisers. What do you do when it starts becoming crowded? (We've talked about this before of course).

I remember going to one freestyle night, down in Minstead on the south coast. We got there about 9:30, and it was already crowded inside, and we were turned away - after a 90 minute drive, we weren't happy, and we never went back there. If we'd been let in, then maybe we'd have been squashed, but I imagine that we'd probably have gone back in the future - especially since we knew that it was going to be crowded before we went.

So, do you make these things ticket only. What do you then do when people travel from a distance to come, without realising that it's tickets only? Or your regulars who've supported you for years, but forgot to get a ticket this time? Especially if they turn up in a group with people who've already got tickets. You run the risk of upsetting at least as many people then, as who are upset about it being crowded.

Of course, for 'big' events, it's much easier to make it ticket only. For a regular once-a-month activity, or a class night, it's not so easy.

Gus has said that 2 events - Ceroc Greenwich and T-Jive limit numbers. Is that for a regular class night, for a regular freestyle night, or for a one-off big event? And if it's for the first two, how do they manage it? It'd be interesting to hear. Franck and Scot both limit numbers for big events (Christmas parties, Beach Ballrooms etc.) up here, and that works. But not for either of the first two types.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Gus has said that 2 events - Ceroc Greenwich and T-Jive limit numbers. Is that for a regular class night, for a regular freestyle night, or for a one-off big event? And if it's for the first two, how do they manage it? It'd be interesting to hear. Franck and Scot both limit numbers for big events (Christmas parties, Beach Ballrooms etc.) up here, and that works. But not for either of the first two types.I didn't think that the T-Jive numbers were limited; but the Ceroc Greenwich party the other weekend was (ticket only, as discussed on the Forum), and it was much appreciated by many. Although I think Russell came in for a lot of badgering for 'extra' tickets. (Somebody even asked me if I had any influence over him... HAH!). None of the Greenwich regular evenings that I've been to (the last was a few months ago) were sufficienly crowded to need to consider limiting numbers.

[TheTramp]

I didn't think that the T-Jive numbers were limited; but the Ceroc Greenwich party the other weekend was (ticket only, as discussed on the Forum), and it was much appreciated by many.
Ah. Here's the post I thought I'd seen...


To date the only two venues I've come across that ever gave any consideration about numbers at a club night is Jango(T Jive) and Ceroc Greenwich. Both have publicly aknowledged that they are committed to keeping floorspace available.

I can think of a number of organisers who limit space at big events off the top of my head. As I said, it's much easier for a big event, than for a regular freestyle (or class) night, where people will turn up, not expecting it to be ticket only. Though, Gus does say that numbers are limited for a 'club' night? That does imply a regular night, rather than a one-off big event. Care to clarify, Gus?

Of course, more popular nights will always have people unhappy at the crowding. Which is totally understandable (and yes, I've complained too). However, the organisers must be doing something right, to get the numbers turning up. If they weren't doing things right, then people wouldn't turn up, and they'd not be financially worthwhile.

It's hard enough finding venues to dance in, so there may not be anywhere larger. Which does limit what the organiser can actually do.

So, does anyone have any reasonable suggestions as to what organisers can actually do about overcrowding? Or do people think that ticketing regular nights is feasible? Cos I'm not sure that I'd agree.

[El Salsero Gringo]

So, does anyone have any reasonable suggestions as to what organisers can actually do about overcrowding? Or do people think that ticketing regular nights is feasible? Cos I'm not sure that I'd agree.Call me MartinHarper, but you might want to have a look at this thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5200) from last month.

[Dan Hudson]

We have a suggestion box!! :clap:

Although no suggestions for over a month, apart from someone asking for a naked Ceroc night!! :what: :rofl:

We are commited to limiting numbers at our party nights, we found following our first "big night" at Greenwich that if we have any more than 130 it becomes uncomfortable. :sad:

So thats why our last party and any subsequent ones will be strictly tickets only.

We did upset a few people in the process of limiting tickets and between myself and Russ we took over 50 emails/phone calls asking for tickets in the two days before the event. It remains to be seen if this just makes people not come back or creates a great night!!

As for regular nights, when the need arises we will limit numbers, it hasn't been a problem so far because the advanced classes take out 20 people from the freestyle therefore creates more space.
Any suggestions on how to limit regular class nigths will be greatfully recieved!!

[David Bailey]

We have a suggestion box!! :clap:

Although no suggestions for over a month, apart from someone asking for a naked Ceroc night!! :what: :rofl:

Ewww.... :sick:

Whilst I :clap: you for having the box, that's only halfway there - does the teacher state "there's a suggestions box, we're trying to make this the best ever, please let us know what you think?" at the end of each class?

You've got to promote a feedback mechanism, it won't promote itself. Hell, sometimes you've got to sit down and do surveys to find out what people want and think. That's what I mean by pro-active in seeking feedback, and I don't believe any MJ organisation does that level of customer-satisfaction determination exercise.

A good example of this is done by a certain DJ at a local venue, who plays "10 O'Clock spots", where he plays 2 songs and specifically asks people to vote on those two songs. And people do vote, so he gets to know what people really think, at least in a small scale.

[Gadget]

So, does anyone have any reasonable suggestions as to what organisers can actually do about overcrowding?
Most of these things have a "fun class" before hand, don't they? How about teaching some 'close moves' or 'floorcraft skills'?

How about the DJ playing some music that would either thin the numbers or encorage people to dance slower (Not a very good solution I admit, but it has posabilities)

How about clearing some of the tables and chairs - if it's that crowded on
the floor, some folk would rather dance on the carpet... there are worse surfaces to dance on (cobbles? :innocent: )

Perhaps a compare who could "encourage" folks to dance one off, one on rather than staying up for every track? (no-one would do that anyway... would they? :whistle: )

How about stopping people once it reaches capacity, but giving those stopped a 'half-price' stub for the next event?

Instead of tickets, how about a "guest list" where you could reserve your space(s) (if not taken by a specific time, those spaces go on a first-come door entry system.)

any more ideas?

[David Bailey]

Excellent set of ideas...

Most of these things have a "fun class" before hand, don't they? How about teaching some 'close moves' or 'floorcraft skills'?
How about doing this anyway, at every venue, all the time?


How about the DJ playing some music that would either thin the numbers
Light dawns; so that's why some DJs play, ahem, certain tracks... :)


How about clearing some of the tables and chairs - if it's that crowded on the floor, some folk would rather dance on the carpet... there are worse surfaces to dance on (cobbles? :innocent: )
:eek: No! Bad Idea! Down, boy!
In the first place, and even ignoring any health and safety legislation, dancing anywhere except on a proper dance floor is a non-good thing; it can damage knees, backs, you name it. In my youth I used to go to a Latin street festival as part of the Notting Hill Carnival, where we'd all dance on the street. And it damaged my back for days afterwards. OK, carpet is better than cobbles, but we should stick to proper sprung dancefloors wherever possible.

In the second place, I need somewhere to put my drink, and even occasionally sit down!


Perhaps a compare who could "encourage" folks to dance one off, one on rather than staying up for every track? (no-one would do that anyway... would they? :whistle: )
Can't see it happening myself; too much organisation / regimentation.


How about stopping people once it reaches capacity, but giving those stopped a 'half-price' stub for the next event?
Hmmm, not bad - but how do we define "capacity"? I know, for my local venues, when it's packed or not, and I have a very rough idea of what is good / bad. But as TheTramp says, dance capacity is much lower than rated H&S capacity...


Instead of tickets, how about a "guest list" where you could reserve your space(s) (if not taken by a specific time, those spaces go on a first-come door entry system.)
Could be, but again, it's a lot of work...


any more ideas?
OK, how about a loyalty-based system? Regulars get preferential prices or treatment, and you use this preference in crowded events to give first choice to locals?

Basically, it all boils down to money - how much short-term revenue would venue organisers sacrifice to ensure a high quality dance experience for a specific popular venue? The answer, I suspect, is "none", almost all the time.

Which is a shame, as in the long-term, this attitude could raise their general reputation enough to help promote other venues...

However, :clap: to Gadget for at least being creative!

[DianaS]

Solihuls next freestyle is Saturday, it will be interesting to hear whether it is as packed this month, so if any ones going can you let me know the numbers...
It was 240 last month... but not many people I know who went last month seem to be going this month... :whistle:
Which is a shame cas its an excellent venue, great teachers, clean air and very friendly people...

[Northants Girly]

Solihuls next freestyle is Saturday, it will be interesting to hear whether it is as packed this month, so if any ones going can you let me know the numbers...
It was 240 last month... but not many people I know who went last month seem to be going this month... :whistle:I won't be going :mad:

[DianaS]

I won't be going :mad:
let's stay in and drink cocoa :nice: :hug:

[Trish]

In the Ceroc Central area Mick Walker has been going around to all the venues " spot auditing" them, which is a great idea :clap: ! As far as Peterborough goes, in the space of less than a month, she has already: advised the taxi dancers on how they can help beginners better, got the venue managers to give name badges to their taxis (something I think they should have done ages ago), got enormous coolers in to help with the temperature (which are excellent), and spoken to punters about the smoking issue - which has meant that it was announced from the stage that the venue will soon be going no-smoking!! Hooray for Mick :clap: - I think every venue should do this - it's an excellent idea, and results in everyone feeling much happier and more listened to. I guess this means the organisers have to free up someone to do it, but it really does help.

The only thing I think she's not going to be able to change is the overcrowding - it's not always that bad, but it is sometimes a real squash! I think Phil has looked into this from what I gather, but again it's the problem of finding a suitable bigger venue. And adding an extra night doesn't help, as all the addicts just come on both nights instead! Personally I think with all this dance addition there is around at the moment, someone will soon have to decide to BUILD some bigger venues - they could make a packet!