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Lou
26th-May-2005, 01:05 PM
I can't seem to lead a Sway very well. Very often it results in my partner just slightly turning and looking at me with a puzzled expression on her/his face. I'm wondering if I'm just too gentle with it, or I'm leading it late? Has anyone else had this and, if so, what did you do?

CJ
26th-May-2005, 01:09 PM
when leading ur partner round to ur right, are u stepping in to "collect" them?

Sparkles
26th-May-2005, 01:11 PM
Sounds to me like you just need to be slightly more definite with the lead.
Also, taking a fairly large step forwards can be helpful - if you expect the lady to do all the running she'll think you're giving her space to prepare her for a spin, take that space away and she'll soon get the idea that a sway is what you're after.
Hope that helps :flower:
S. x

Lou
26th-May-2005, 01:15 PM
Mmmm.... I'm just transfering weight back onto the forward foot... maybe I should make a bigger effort to step further forward? I'll experiment! :D Cheers!

Gadget
26th-May-2005, 01:24 PM
I can't seem to lead a Sway very well. Very often it results in my partner just slightly turning and looking at me with a puzzled expression on her/his face. I'm wondering if I'm just too gentle with it, or I'm leading it late? Has anyone else had this and, if so, what did you do?
It's because the lead is taught in an "L" shape when actually it's more of a "U" shape, with you moving in (as CJ said) on the upward leg of the "U": your lead should encircle the follower's waist.

(If the follower is still not getting it, lead to the right more so that you are forcing them to start moving in this direction then (once they are moving), the forward bit guides them to continue this rotation.)

MartinHarper
26th-May-2005, 01:24 PM
I reckon the Sway lead used in JazzJive is clearer and more definite than is typically used in Ceroc. I'd recommend anyone in the area who has trouble with it hook up with TRDC for some Beginner/Intermediate 1 lessons. The same applies to a few other moves, such as the Lasso and Half Windmill. The same advice applies in reverse for those moves where the Ceroc lead is clearer, of course.

Gadget
26th-May-2005, 01:31 PM
I reckon the Sway lead used in JazzJive is clearer and more definite than is typically used in Ceroc.How? What do they do that's different?

{Curiousity; not defending Ceroc}

MartinHarper
26th-May-2005, 02:01 PM
In Ceroc if I give a half-hearted lead of "forward and round a bit", half the women lead themselves into a sway, whereas if I give the same half-hearted lead to JazzJive women, half of them lead themselves into a Ladyspin. As a result, intermediate Ceroc guys tend to give half-hearted Sway leads that are vividly demonstrated when they dance with JazzJive women. I find that my lead for the Sway gets lazy if I only dance with Ceroc women for a time.

Gojive
26th-May-2005, 07:28 PM
I find a slight downward movement with your arm when initiating helps as well, to create a kind of "down round and up" feel :)

DavidB
26th-May-2005, 07:51 PM
I find a slight downward movement with your arm when initiating helps as well,It does indeed. Although the alternative method of dislocating the lady's shoulder is more dramatic...

Gojive
26th-May-2005, 08:04 PM
It does indeed. Although the alternative method of dislocating the lady's shoulder is more dramatic...

:confused: :confused: I did say "slight"...am I missing something here? :innocent:

David Bailey
26th-May-2005, 08:45 PM
I can't seem to lead a Sway very well. Very often it results in my partner just slightly turning and looking at me with a puzzled expression on her/his face. I'm wondering if I'm just too gentle with it, or I'm leading it late? Has anyone else had this and, if so, what did you do?
Good God - a thread about, you know, dancing! :eek: :what: :confused:
Can't remember what they look like now... :innocent:

From my limited experience, it helps, when you're twisting the follower's wrist clockwise downwards, to combine that with a strong pull towards you, and step in simultaneously so you're checking her body with yours - then you can either pause to let the follower catch a breath, or go straight back into the sway-ing bit.

Actually, it's probably a pull first, then a twist. No, in fact, the twist comes naturally if you keep your right hand down, so ignore that bit. It's hard work envisaging these things... :blush:

For more emphasis, if you start the pull a bit further apart, that allows you a bit more strength on the pull-in bit; makes it more dramatic. But certainly, a sway requires a pretty strong lead.

Also, a sway is a great move to have a pause and be creative - e.g. whirl the left arm around to the music, take different steps, pause for effect, that sort of thing. It gives the leader so much control, you can lead any old weirdo combination and the follower has to put up with it :)

Caveat: no idea whether this is proper dance technique, but it works for me.

P.S. Minnie M does a really good sway :wink:

DavidB
26th-May-2005, 08:49 PM
I did say "slight"...am I missing something here? Sorry. I was agreeing with you, not having a go.

Too many people lead a sway without any downward motion. So for the arm to get round the shoulder has to go up. If you get this wrong you can dislocate the shoulder.

Taking the arm down makes it far more comfortable.

A sway is led with the co-operation of the lady, not in confrontation with her.

David Bailey
26th-May-2005, 08:51 PM
In Ceroc if I give a half-hearted lead of "forward and round a bit", half the women lead themselves into a sway, whereas if I give the same half-hearted lead to JazzJive women, half of them lead themselves into a Ladyspin. As a result, intermediate Ceroc guys tend to give half-hearted Sway leads that are vividly demonstrated when they dance with JazzJive women. I find that my lead for the Sway gets lazy if I only dance with Ceroc women for a time.
Hmm, very interesting....

I did find problems with a similar move in salsa - in Cuban salsa, that wrist-twisting is more of a signal to the lady to do a full turn into a lady-nelson; sways don't work so well in salsa, alas.

But as Cuban salsa is seen as boring and old-fashioned now :mad:, I guess it's more academic :tears:

Robin
26th-May-2005, 09:00 PM
It does indeed. Although the alternative method of dislocating the lady's shoulder is more dramatic...

unless of course, you're Adam , who manages to dislocate his own shoulder!

Minnie M
26th-May-2005, 09:05 PM
P.S. Minnie M does a really good sway :wink:
thanks DJ :blush: I'll pay you later

Gojive
26th-May-2005, 09:11 PM
Sorry. I was agreeing with you, not having a go.

Too many people lead a sway without any downward motion. So for the arm to get round the shoulder has to go up. If you get this wrong you can dislocate the shoulder.

Taking the arm down makes it far more comfortable.

A sway is led with the co-operation of the lady, not in confrontation with her.

Damn it David, why couldn't you have cleared that one up earlier?....I've just spent the last half hour, trying to sway every inanimate object in my house, just to see where I'm going wrong!! :yum: :blush: So far, I've managed dislocate three lampstandards, a coat stand, and my favourite teddy! :tears:

Oh the perils of mis-reading posts eh? :cheers:

Whitebeard
26th-May-2005, 10:53 PM
Also, a sway is a great move to have a pause and be creative - e.g. whirl the left arm around to the music, take different steps, pause for effect, that sort of thing. It gives the leader so much control, you can lead any old weirdo combination and the follower has to put up with it.
Not quite with you there. I have no trouble with the lead (yes, there is a downward element to that) but I do find that getting the lady nice and firmly tucked in to the side is more of a problem. And, unless you grab her left hand or wrist, the move can have a very loose and untidy feel to it. Very often there is little sense of being in any sort of control.

Gadget
26th-May-2005, 10:55 PM
For more emphasis, if you start the pull a bit further apart, that allows you a bit more strength on the pull-in bit; makes it more dramatic. But certainly, a sway requires a pretty strong lead.
:what: What DavidB said: the above is a really good way to "yank" someone's shoulder off. It's a lead people - start the momentum in the direction you want the follower to travel and guide that momentum to glide her into place.
It's NOT a haul, drag and wrestle! You want dramatic, make it sharper - not stronger. :(

{BTW I think that the 'downward' motion is at the start as you lead the lady towards you, it remains quite low in the 'arc' and returns to the prior level as she wraps in.*}

~edit~
Re: control - when the lady wraps in, you then should be close enough to connect hip to hip with the lady's left shoulder contacting your right pectoral: it's only when there is too much space between you that it looks messy and both partners become out of alignment with each other: your step in to collect should position your feet paralell to the followers. (again, if you're not, it looks more "messy")


{*assuming the follower is a "she"}

spindr
26th-May-2005, 11:58 PM
I usually think of the lead for a sway as a reflected "J".

And of course, you should easily be able to pick up the follower's left hand -- because they always remember to offer it for you to take.

SpinDr.

MartinHarper
27th-May-2005, 12:41 AM
David gives a good explanation of the real reasons for having some downwards motion in the sway lead. However, I still kinda prefer the "lies-to-children" version I was given - which went:

1) At the start of the sway, the woman will have her hand at waist level.
2) At the end of the sway (intro), the women will have her hand on her hip.
3) Women's hips are lower than their waists.
4) You do the math.


You want dramatic, make it sharper - not stronger.

Just because a lead is stronger than the lead for some other move, does not necessarilly mean that it is danger of yanking the woman's shoulder off.
Given that I'm not a muscle-bound hunk, I reckon I'm more likely to hurt my partner by giving her a lead that is too sharp than one that is too strong.


For more emphasis, if you start the pull a bit further apart, that allows you a bit more strength on the pull-in bit; makes it more dramatic.

One nice trick here is for the man to "dig in" - getting lower, spreading his feet, and generally setting himself up to give a very much bigger lead than he's actually going to use. This acts as a visual lead, as the woman will respond by setting herself up (weight, tension) to be moved in the indicated direction. Or run away screaming, of course.

David Bailey
27th-May-2005, 08:29 AM
Not quite with you there. I have no trouble with the lead (yes, there is a downward element to that) but I do find that getting the lady nice and firmly tucked in to the side is more of a problem. And, unless you grab her left hand or wrist, the move can have a very loose and untidy feel to it. Very often there is little sense of being in any sort of control.
Weeelll.... you've got lots of time to play with in a sway, you don't have to "grab", you can pause, gently offer, that sort of thing. I'm a big fan of sways, they're great :)

And as for control, the lady is tucked right up against you - you have close body contact (OK, maybe I've been doing it wrong), so you've got much more in the way of options to lead, you can read your partner better and give clearer signals.

Also, signals can be much more disguised from that position - so it can look as if the lady spontaneously takes control for a move, where you've actually led it by signalling with the body. Sounds a bit pervy :blush: , but hopefully you know what I mean...


However, I still kinda prefer the "lies-to-children" version I was given - which went:
1) At the start of the sway, the woman will have her hand at waist level.
2) At the end of the sway (intro), the women will have her hand on her hip.
3) Women's hips are lower than their waists.
4) You do the math.

:rofl: Nice one. Clear and concise...



Just because a lead is stronger than the lead for some other move, does not necessarilly mean that it is danger of yanking the woman's shoulder off.
Given that I'm not a muscle-bound hunk, I reckon I'm more likely to hurt my partner by giving her a lead that is too sharp than one that is too strong.

Indeed. From my point of view, I've got a right shoulder, so just for purely selfish reasons, I'm certainly not going to damage it with yanking people around all over the place.



One nice trick here is for the man to "dig in" - getting lower, spreading his feet, and generally setting himself up to give a very much bigger lead than he's actually going to use. This acts as a visual lead, as the woman will respond by setting herself up (weight, tension) to be moved in the indicated direction. Or run away screaming, of course.
Yes, the whole area of visual body leads; you're leading with your body not your hand. Wish someone had told me this stuff ages ago :tears:


:what: What DavidB said: the above is a really good way to "yank" someone's shoulder off. It's a lead people - start the momentum in the direction you want the follower to travel and guide that momentum to glide her into place.
It's NOT a haul, drag and wrestle! You want dramatic, make it sharper - not stronger. :(
My suggestion was to Lou - it sounds like she (got it right that time!) needs to make the lead more clear and strong, and that's one way I could think of for her to do that. Martin's suggestion is probably better-expressed.

Sparkles
27th-May-2005, 11:35 AM
And of course, you should easily be able to pick up the follower's left hand -- because they always remember to offer it for you to take.


Although I have to say I do feel rather silly when I offer my left hand in a sway (as a follower) and the guy not only doesn't take it but looks at me as if to say 'what did you put that there for :rolleyes: ?'
Maybe this should have gone on another thread...

S. x

David Bailey
27th-May-2005, 11:40 AM
Although I have to say I do feel rather silly when I offer my left hand in a sway (as a follower) and the guy not only doesn't take it but looks at me as if to say 'what did you put that there for :rolleyes: ?'
Maybe this should have gone on another thread...

S. x
Ahh, but that's when you run your hand up and down his chest suggestively... :whistle:

Lights yet more blue touchpaper...

Daisy Chain
27th-May-2005, 12:17 PM
....and my favourite teddy!



You don't look like a cross-dresser

Daisy

(A Surprised Little Flower)

Gojive
27th-May-2005, 01:00 PM
You don't look like a cross-dresser

Daisy

(A Surprised Little Flower)

You're right DC....I'm a happy one :waycool:

ps - do you really know what I look like? :eek:

Whitebeard
27th-May-2005, 02:35 PM
And of course, you should easily be able to pick up the follower's left hand -- because they always remember to offer it for you to take.



Although I have to say I do feel rather silly when I offer my left hand in a sway (as a follower) and the guy not only doesn't take it but looks at me as if to say 'what did you put that there for ?
Ceroc makes a point of ordering we leaders to ignore the proffered hand unless unless we intend to do some sort of variation; and I for one don't know any.

And yet, I do seem to recall from earlier times at jazzjive that we were taught to take the ladies left wrist (I believe it was the wrist) and then swing out into a much more exagerated turn out than the genteel Ceroc effort. Suppose I could treat that as a legitimate variation where the music encourages such exuberance.

David Bailey
27th-May-2005, 03:18 PM
Ceroc makes a point of ordering we leaders to ignore the proffered hand unless unless we intend to do some sort of variation; and I for one don't know any.
:what: Well, you'll never get anywhere by listening to the Borg. Listen to me, I clearly know what I'm talking about all the time :rofl:

Seriously, I dunno, but it does seem natural to me to take the lady's hand, and it gives more options for coming out of it - e.g. this crucifix thing. And it just seems a bit untidy to, you know, let it just hang out there :)

El Salsero Gringo
27th-May-2005, 03:28 PM
:what: Well, you'll never get anywhere by listening to the Borg. Listen to me, I clearly know what I'm talking about all the time :rofl:

Seriously, I dunno, but it does seem natural to me to take the lady's hand, and it gives more options for coming out of it - e.g. this crucifix thing. And it just seems a bit untidy to, you know, let it just hang out there :)It gives you the perfect opportunity to check the state of her manicure before deciding whether to take her hand or not.

spindr
27th-May-2005, 07:45 PM
Ceroc makes a point of ordering we leaders to ignore the proffered hand unless unless we intend to do some sort of variation; and I for one don't know any.

Sway back, as per normal
Sway forwards.
Nudge lady forwards and spin her 540 degrees anticlockwise using the left-to-left handhold.
(Optional: spin yourself 360 degrees).
Catch.

SpinDr.

Whitebeard
27th-May-2005, 10:30 PM
Sway back, as per normal
Sway forwards.
Nudge lady forwards and spin her 540 degrees anticlockwise using the left-to-left handhold.
Thanks (does it have a name?) and put like that it seems that even I should be able to pull it off. Will give it a try next week and surprise one or two ladies who must be finding me all too predictable.

[P.S. I can manage degrees, though I'd rather have turns, but (off subject) I really hate all those thousands of millimetres by which things are measured these days.




(Optional: spin yourself 360 degrees).

Catch.
If only !!!

Gadget
27th-May-2005, 11:26 PM
I think that once the lady is wrapped in, her left arm can add lots of style just in the way it's presented. (The best example of this I've seen is Lisa.)
If the man dosn't take the offered hand, then I think it looks better if they echo it - and echo the lady's movements of it: as she twists out, the hand can cross over her body to be re-offered on the twist back.
If the hand is not offered, It can also make quite a 'stylish' feature to take your left hand to the lady's left upper arm and and take the lady's arm up and out to slide down it and collect the hand.

I use the sway a lot to wave arms about and generally 'play' with the dance; the left arm is free to do whatever, the lady is close enough to involve her, you still have loads of control, and she can ham it up as well. Definetly a :waycool: move in my book.

Whitebeard
27th-May-2005, 11:47 PM
I use the sway a lot to wave arms about and generally 'play' with the dance; the left arm is free to do whatever, the lady is close enough to involve her, you still have loads of control, and she can ham it up as well. Definetly a move in my book.

Getting there my friend. Found a girl who really likes to ham it up; even with an old has-been like me. This may be the cross-over point, where I cease to think in terms of moves and just let myself go and dance.

El Salsero Gringo
28th-May-2005, 11:31 PM
Just been thinking about that 'downward pull' thing. It occurs to me that it's a very useful lead anytime you want your partner to come to or stay close to you, like in a close arm jive, or in leading a Backhander, or a Windmill. If you have some slight floorward tension in the lady's (straight) arm she can't step away. I suspect that to get a sway to work you might not have to do too much else, in fact. Have to try it out...