Condescending leads

[MartinHarper]

To women/followers - what styles/methods of leading do you find come across as condescending or patronising? As an example, a friend of mine dislikes guys calling out names of moves in addition to leading them. Apparently, it gives the impression that they don't trust her to follow the lead.
(the reality is probably that they don't trust themselves to give a correct lead, but there you go)

[David Bailey]

To women/followers - what styles/methods of leading do you find come across as condescending or patronising? As an example, a friend of mine dislikes guys calling out names of moves in addition to leading them. Apparently, it gives the impression that they don't trust her to follow the lead.
(the reality is probably that they don't trust themselves to give a correct lead, but there you go)
I got thrown last week - I was doing a weird and complex move with a new partner - 'coz I'm mean that way - and it's a straightjacket-type thing which usually puts the fear of God into most followers if they haven't done it before (you can see it in the whites of their eyes, I tell you :) ).

So, to ease the tension, I sometimes grin at the end of it and say "See, easy?", as I thought it helped allay their fears / buoy confidence, and usually I get a look of relief in return. Admittedly, that could be relief that I didn't do even more damage, but even so, I assumed it helped.

But last week a follower said "Why do you say Easy?", looking slightly indignant. I sputtered, "Err, well, you see...", and left it at that comprehensive answer.

So, is that being condescending? I'd like to know - I'll certainly think twice about saying that in future...

But calling out names, no - that's just silly, if you can't lead the move, expecting the follower to know what you want to do and correct your mistakes is just daft.

[Lou]

As an example, a friend of mine dislikes guys calling out names of moves in addition to leading them. Apparently, it gives the impression that they don't trust her to follow the lead.
And it wouldn't help me - we've got different names for things around here...

Good question. My biggest hate is when I've failed to perform a move with a partner & he just turns to me and says "Oh, you don't know that one, then? We do it at such-and-such venue". I find that very condescending. ;)

We also have one chap here who over-emphasises the move, signals loudly, and points to where he wants you to step, etc... It looks a bit naff, IMO. But some ladies might like it.

[Purple Sparkler]

The worst lead I know is a guy who, despite the fact he has no sense of rhythm and is generally just not, well, better than chocolate (I'm trying to be polite), tells me I'm doing things wrong. Even though I know I'm not, because I pay attention in classes, I think if I was a beginner and dancing with him (not that he would ever condescend to dance with a beginner), it would absolutely wreck my confidence.

As a result, I tend to avoid dancing with him. :blush:

[El Salsero Gringo]

Some people find the move(s) where you offer your right hand behind your back then take it away at the last minute condescending, I think - or so they've said in the past on the Forum, but I've always got a genuine (as far as I can tell) smile out of it. As I have with the chest-bounce, which kicked off a recent thread. So I guess a lot of it is in the execution.

[MartinHarper]

And it wouldn't help me - we've got different names for things around here...

That's ok. I'll just say the names loudly and very slowly... :)

[Purple Sparkler]

Some people find the move(s) where you offer your right hand behind your back then take it away at the last minute condescending, I think - or so they've said in the past on the Forum, but I've always got a genuine (as far as I can tell) smile out of it.

When a guy does that to me going into a 'you thought it was a pretzel but it's not' type move, I tend to make a playground-rude gesture with my other hand when we're facing each other. One of my favourite partners mirrors it. It's fun.

[Lou]

That's ok. I'll just say the names loudly and very slowly... :)
Oi! I'm not blonde*, you know! :na:




*Please don't start another poll, ESG... :rolleyes:

[JoC]

I might have to punch you in the nose if you routinely keep cocking (I believe that is the correct term) your head on one side in patronising fashion whilst I attempt to follow what you're leading. 'You' is no-one in particular but exists... Looks very 'ooh can you do this? Ooh what a clever little girl! (supposing it goes right)', leaves me waiting for a pat on the head, pat pat pat.

I'm going to regret this, I bet someone pats me on the head now and I'll probably deserve it!

[stewart38]

Some people find the move(s) where you offer your right hand behind your back then take it away at the last minute condescending, I think - or so they've said in the past on the Forum, but I've always got a genuine (as far as I can tell) smile out of it.

Only one women has ever said to me thats a stupid thing to do

A few dont get it

But most I think,think its fun especially if you do the face with thumb bit

I dont usualy do it with people who i dance with regulary and dont usually do it often

[Sparkles]

I don't like it when someone (usually someone you don't know or who dances with you infrequently) picks a move (that they've usualy lead badly) and repeats it over and over again until you (by some strange coincidence, as they've still not lead it properly) do what they want you to do and then they say something like "See, it's not that difficult is it?!" :angry:
It's one thing to be taught a move by a teacher, but when some irritating so-and-so who thinks they know best decided that you need training to do their moves it gets my back up. There are ways and ways of getting people to do what you want - I might suggest that leading it correctly would be the first and best option! :rolleyes:
S. x

[Sparkles]

I might have to punch you in the nose if you routinely keep cocking (I believe that is the correct term) your head on one side in patronising fashion whilst I attempt to follow what you're leading. 'You' is no-one in particular but exists... Looks very 'ooh can you do this? Ooh what a clever little girl! (supposing it goes right)', leaves me waiting for a pat on the head, pat pat pat.

I'm going to regret this, I bet someone pats me on the head now and I'll probably deserve it!

:yeah:
The first time I spoke to RK it was because he patted me on the head in jest (after he'd seen some b*gger had just done it to me in a patronising way).

Be warned JoC - there are patters out there and they may be picking you as their next target!
S. x

[El Salsero Gringo]

I don't like it when someone (usually someone you don't know or who dances with you infrequently) picks a move (that they've usualy lead badly) and repeats it over and over again until you (by some strange coincidence, as they've still not lead it properly) do what they want you to do and then they say something like "See, it's not that difficult is it?!" :angry:
It's one thing to be taught a move by a teacher, but when some irritating so-and-so who thinks they know best decided that you need training to do their moves it gets my back up. There are ways and ways of getting people to do what you want - I might suggest that leading it correctly would be the first and best option! :rolleyes:
S. xAs usual, I'll jump in with another construction on the same events: perhaps he's trying to perfect his lead rather than teach you the move? Perhaps it's because he recognises your competence that he's thinking - crikey, if I can't get Sparkles to follow this, I need to work on getting it right! Anyway, that's what I'd be thinking.

I'd do a move twice in a row (or in a short space of time) and if it didn't work I'd give up on it for that dance.

[Northants Girly]

Last week, after I successfully followed a long, complicated move a guy said to me "Well done!" :eek:


W****r! :angry: :angry: :angry:

[Gary]

I don't like it when someone (usually someone you don't know or who dances with you infrequently) picks a move (that they've usualy lead badly) and repeats it over and over again until you (by some strange coincidence, as they've still not lead it properly) do what they want you to do and then they say something like "See, it's not that difficult is it?!" :angry:...
That does sound bloody annoying. I've also been told, though, that (at least some) ladies prefer it if they miss a move that I try it again and give them (and me) a second chance at it. Is there some magic number of attempts to make?

[DavidB]

Is there some magic number of attempts to make?Yes - one less than the number they find annoying.

[David Bailey]

I might have to punch you in the nose if you routinely keep cocking (I believe that is the correct term) your head on one side in patronising fashion whilst I attempt to follow what you're leading. '
:eek: I think I'd better stop that "easy" habit right now :innocent:


I'm going to regret this, I bet someone pats me on the head now and I'll probably deserve it!
Blimey, I doubt anyone would dare... :D

[ElaineB]

That's ok. I'll just say the names loudly and very slowly... :)

But, can you manage a Bristolian accent me lover! :D


Elaine

[philsmove]

But, can you manage a Bristolian accent me lover! :D


Elaine

Awlrite Me Luvver
Dees Casn't Do dart even’n Art Cleff

[Tessalicious]

I don't like it when someone (usually someone you don't know or who dances with you infrequently) picks a move (that they've usualy lead badly) and repeats it over and over again until you (by some strange coincidence, as they've still not lead it properly) do what they want you to do and then they say something like "See, it's not that difficult is it?!" :angry:
It's one thing to be taught a move by a teacher, but when some irritating so-and-so who thinks they know best decided that you need training to do their moves it gets my back up. There are ways and ways of getting people to do what you want - I might suggest that leading it correctly would be the first and best option! :rolleyes:
S. x
I can totally identify with that one - while I don't have a problem with a guy repeating a move once to practice the lead (preferably interspersed with another move or two), or if you both agree it would be nice to work out how it should go, I do get slightly frustrated by the guys that give you the rolling eyes when a move doesn't quite work and then repeat it, over and over and over again without changing anything they're doing, just expecting you to magically work out what it is that you're not doing. If a guy does that too often it can discourage you from dancing with them because it is quite deflating to the old ego (not that I am under any illusions of being a wonderful dancer but it would be nice for the level of confidence I have not to be shattered by someone who has little right to act superior).

As far as calling moves beforehand is concerned, there is a lot of talk of 'verbal leads' for certain drops/aerials etc but generally they aren't necessary for social freestyle moves - I would have thought that, especially since many venues don't seem to teach moves by name, the follower is, in general, more likely to know the move from the lead than from the name!

[Gojive]

Last week, after I successfully followed a long, complicated move a guy said to me "Well done!" :eek:


W****r! :angry: :angry: :angry:

* Thinks: "Did I dance with NG last week? :eek: ...no, 'twas the week before thankfully! :waycool: " *

Being a little more serious, and hopefully near enough on topic :) , if a partner does something I like, like a sexy wiggle, or multiple spins, or just seems to do a move superbly, I often say things to her like "beautifully done". Is that sort of thing seen as condescending too? :innocent:

[JoC]

I often say things to her like "beautifully done". Is that sort of thing seen as condescending too? :innocent:

I don't think I'd find that condescending, can't speak for anyone else. I think comments like that could potentially by quite confidence boosting and complimentary. At least I hope so because I think that's the equivalent of where I say 'nice move' to a partner if they've thrown in a nice new move. Isn't it good to occasionally voice approval?

Don't ask me where the line is drawn though between a condescending comment and an encouraging appreciative one! I think you can probably sense when someone is being condescending through tone of voice and body language rather than choice of words alone. (Or language of voice and body tone, whichever you prefer to examine :D ).

[David Bailey]

* Thinks: "Did I dance with NG last week? :eek: ...no, 'twas the week before thankfully! :waycool: " *
Me too - and I'm nowhere near you guys. I suspect even Andreas and Yilander had a quick think... :)


Being a little more serious, and hopefully near enough on topic :) , if a partner does something I like, like a sexy wiggle, or multiple spins, or just seems to do a move superbly, I often say things to her like "beautifully done". Is that sort of thing seen as condescending too? :innocent:
God knows - I'm not even sure if I dare compliment anyone ever again now... :tears:

[JoC]

God knows - I'm not even sure if I dare compliment anyone ever again now... :tears:

Be brave my little soldier, you can do it, you've done sooo well up to now!

Think it's time to get a life and go dancing now isn't it little one!?!?!?! (in patronising voice, to myself!)

:innocent:

[frodo]

Last week, after I successfully followed a long, complicated move a guy said to me "Well done!" :eek:


W****r! :angry: :angry: :angry:

Kind of worrying ( unless the guy was relatively inexperienced ).

[Yogi_Bear]

When a guy does that to me going into a 'you thought it was a pretzel but it's not' type move, I tend to make a playground-rude gesture with my other hand when we're facing each other. One of my favourite partners mirrors it. It's fun.As I recall from Ceroc classes of long ago, a playground rude gesture was taught as an optional extra for moves of the 'false pretzel' type including another that developed out of some kind of pseudo-wurlitzer or other. Or maybe I am misinterpreting the type of gesture. Anyway, this kind of yah-boo approach is not one I normally favour.

[David Bailey]

Be brave my little soldier, you can do it, you've done sooo well up to now!
Actually, I quite liked that, found it nice and encouraging.

Must be the mother-fixation in me :blush:

[Gadget]

I never know when complements turn from being complimentory to patronising to creapy to sleasy... so I just shut up and grin lots. :D

... I hope I don't have a patronising grin :what:

[Ballroom queen]

Yes - one less than the number they find annoying.


:rofl: :rofl:

I started reading this thread, and instantly thought of those annoying types who lead a move, it doesn't work, for what ever reason (bad lead, bad following, naff move (- tunnels etc), etc) then they try it again and it still doesn't work. I guess the main thing, for me, is when it didn't work did they scowl at me as if it's my fault, or laugh and then try again. Did I say "I hate that move" or did they smile and say "lets try that again" to which I could reply "no" !!! If its made to be fun then its less of a problem / condescending, if its made to be totally the girls fault then I remember the phrase "The guy is in charge, if it goes wrong its his fault, always" .... :rofl: :rofl:

Remember, its supposed to be fun. :rofl:

Of course its totally different in a class / practicing / learning situation - eg nose quins, where we are repeating moving and trying to get them right, perfect them etc, compared to a total freestyle night / freestyle dance.

I hope that makes sense, and of course, as ever, all IMHO :rofl:

[Lou]

Awlrite Me Luvver
Dees Casn't Do dart even’n Art Cleff
Art Cleff? I darnt gaw darn thar, me lovel.. Sofa the rivel? :confused:

[Lory]

I don't like it when someone (usually someone you don't know or who dances with you infrequently) picks a move (that they've usualy lead badly) and repeats it over and over again until you (by some strange coincidence, as they've still not lead it properly) do what they want you to do and then they say something like "See, it's not that difficult is it?!" :angry:

:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

You've described that perfectly! :worthy:

A couple of weeks back I was dancing with a very 'mediocre' dancer, who kept leading 'something' :confused: confused, I faltered, smiled but carried on as if nothing had happened. Then he repeated the move again... and again, so I politely asked, am I doing something wrong?

So we stopped dancing and he showed me. :o

Then next time, even though his lead was completely wrong, I didn't wish to appear rude so I did what he'd showed me and with that, he turned to me, with a contented and smug smile, and proudly said, there you go, you've almost got it now! :what:

After that, I was fortunate enough to have him repeat the move at least 6 times, just to make sure I'd really mastered it! Each time getting a reassuring nod and wink! ;) :angry:

[Northants Girly]

* Thinks: "Did I dance with NG last week? :eek: ...no, 'twas the week before thankfully! :waycool: " *

Being a little more serious, and hopefully near enough on topic :) , if a partner does something I like, like a sexy wiggle, or multiple spins, or just seems to do a move superbly, I often say things to her like "beautifully done". Is that sort of thing seen as condescending too? :innocent:No of course it wasn't you Ian :flower:



Me too - and I'm nowhere near you guys. I suspect even Andreas and Yilander had a quick think... :)

God knows - I'm not even sure if I dare compliment anyone ever again now... :tears:This is maybe just a personal thing to me. For some reason I find comments during the dance a little condescending.

However, once the dance is over a "Thanks I REALLY enjoyed that!" or a "Thanks that was great!" are very much appreciated :grin:

[David Bailey]

However, once the dance is over a "Thanks I REALLY enjoyed that!" or a "Thanks that was great!" are very much appreciated :grin:
Well, of course - I always say that, whew, glad that's not too patronizing :whistle:

So, are we allowed to compliment (or in Gadgetspeak, "complement") a girl still? Just checking... :D

[Clive Long]

Last week, after I successfully followed a long, complicated move a guy said to me "Well done!" :eek:


W****r! :angry: :angry: :angry:
I do something equally as condescending.

If I am dancing with a woman I feel is a little nervous and has come on to the dance floor saying, "I've only been coming to this a couple of weeks, are you any good?"
I normally say, '"I have been dancing for years, but I'm nowhere near as good as I should be."

All very genuine. All very nice.

However, I tend to spoil it if we carry off a nice dip or drop (sorry, sorry, I know I shouldn't :blush: ), a move that involves some degree of trust & the woman following a lead, I tend to say (instinctively) "Good Girl" - as if to a horse that has executed a nice jump.

I do say at the end, if it is true, "Nice Dance. Thank-you."

You can send the hate mail (it will join the pile) just don't put more disturbing things through my letter box please :flower: . The neighbours are starting to complain.


Clive (a not very PC flower) (apologies Daisy)

[Northants Girly]

I tend to say (instinctively) "Good Girl" - as if to a horse that has executed a nice jump. Oh you don't really do you Clive?? :sick: :sad: :mad:

[Clive Long]

Oh you don't really do you Clive?? :sick: :sad: :mad:
Pay attention next time we dance Miss L. But I reserve the right to frisk you for sharp implements before we start.

Clive

[Northants Girly]

Pay attention next time we dance Miss L. But I reserve the right to frisk you for sharp implements before we start.

Clive :eek: :eek: :eek:

[bigdjiver]

So, are we allowed to compliment (or in Gadgetspeak, "complement") a girl still? Just checking... :DComplement: Something that completes, makes up a whole, or brings to perfection. :yeah:


Well, of course - I always say that, whew, glad that's not too patronizing :whistle:
...or in Gadgetspeak ... Dodge one pit, fall into another ...

[Northants Girly]

Dodge one pit, fall into another ...That's called being a bloke innit? ;)

[Clive Long]

:eek: :eek: :eek:
I'm not sure if that response is going to augur well for the next time we are in the same county.

Maybe it's best I don't know

CRL

[MartinHarper]

I tend to say (instinctively) "Good Girl".

Nod. Or, if I get a refusal - "Bad follower! No cookie!". The Lindy Hop "points" move is good for that...

To pick up on something I read elsewhere - what about wrist leads? Eg, grabbing the woman's wrist in a Ceroc Spin. Ok or not ok?

[Gadget]

So, are we allowed to compliment (or in Gadgetspeak, "complement") a girl still?
I hope my dancing complements the lady, I hope my grin is a compliment... depending on where I look first of course :innocent:

Dodge one pit, fall into another ...:grin: OK, so my spelling is the pits, but I quite like that one. :D

To pick up on something I read elsewhere - what about wrist leads? Eg, grabbing the woman's wrist in a Ceroc Spin. Ok or not ok?
Grabbing? not OK. Why should a lead that comes from anywhere other than the hand be condesending?

[Sparkles]

That does sound bloody annoying. I've also been told, though, that (at least some) ladies prefer it if they miss a move that I try it again and give them (and me) a second chance at it. Is there some magic number of attempts to make?

I have no problem with a guy practicing his lead on me (that didn't come out quite how I meant, but you know what I mean :rolleyes: ).
To repeat something, IMO, up to three times would be acceptable but more than that and it's weird; and I'm particularly talking about cases like the one Lory has related when it's quite obvious that the leader is not trying to perfect his lead but is just being plain patronising.

I have also, in the past, said things like "That was really fun!" or "What a great move!" whilst dancing with someone and they have repeated the move because I enjoyed it - no problem with that at all :D , and it's even better if they then show me how to lead it after our dance has finished! :worthy: :flower:

S. x

[JoC]

"Good Girl" - as if to a horse that has executed a nice jump.


Does that come with the a pat on the rump?

[Sheepman]

a guy said to me "Well done!" :eek: I said that once, to a woman I knew was a good dancer, though we'd only danced a couple of times. What she had just done was A M A Z I N G ! but not knowing her I was too shy to say anything like that, so it just came out as "Well done!" :blush:

Hopefully that was the first and last time.

Greg

[Northants Girly]

I know this is a little off topic but it is kind of related and I have to get it off my chest! :sick:


Just got back from an appointment at a certain Building Society . . .

"Sorry but your appointment was at 1 pm not 2 pm"

"That means you are one hour late!"


(oh really??)

:angry: :angry: :angry:

[Nick M]

But, can you manage a Bristolian accent me lover! :D


So that'll be a lambadal, followed by a bit of salsal and a halleluial then moi luvverrrrrrr?

[Dreadful Scathe]

I know this is a little off topic but it is kind of related and I have to get it off my chest! :sick:


Just got back from an appointment at a certain Building Society . . .

"Sorry but your appointment was at 1 pm not 2 pm"

"That means you are one hour late!"


(oh really??)

:angry: :angry: :angry:
Id be impressed by their ability to figure that out, you should have patted them on the head and congratulated them :)

[Dreadful Scathe]

Nod. Or, if I get a refusal - "Bad follower! No cookie!". The Lindy Hop "points" move is good for that...

To pick up on something I read elsewhere - what about wrist leads? Eg, grabbing the woman's wrist in a Ceroc Spin. Ok or not ok?
wrists, waist = ok

breasts, bum = not ok

(without at least written authorisation)

[Chicklet]

, I often say things to her like "beautifully done". Is that sort of thing seen as condescending too? :innocent:
may I offer "it ain't what you say, it's the way that you say it" ?

[Gojive]

may I offer "it ain't what you say, it's the way that you say it" ?

Yes you can - I just hope I say it the right way! :eek: :grin:

[MartinHarper]

Today I found my left-handed playground-rude "style point". Now I'm looking for a class that teaches two-handed variations for use during shines...

Interesting that there's been more made of the things we guys say whilst leading, rather than things in the lead itself. That's kinda reassuring, even if following Gadget's lead and shutting up would be something of a challenge for me.

[Gadget]

... even if following Gadget's lead and shutting up would be something of a challenge for me.Actually I'm trying to school myself out of singing allong since it looks pants (seemingly) - so I should really try to follow my own advice sometimes :blush:

[Lou]

Today I found my left-handed playground-rude "style point".
Really? I didn't notice... :whistle:

[JoC]

In a state of heightened 'compliment awareness' I noticed at Perth last night the appreciative compliments were flowing thick and fast before, during and after dances all around, there was love in the room and it felt good! :hug: :hug: :hug:

Thankyou to the anonymous gentleman who patted me on the head, and provided many words of encouragement during our dance. I doubt I earned them... :flower:

[Yogi_Bear]

:

Thankyou to the anonymous gentleman who patted me on the head, and provided many words of encouragement during our dance. I doubt I earned them... :flower: a pat on the head sounds like the ultimate in condescension.... :sick:

[JoC]

a pat on the head sounds like the ultimate in condescension.... :sick:
:rofl: Yes! Was thinking about trying the new move I've been working on called head-pat-into-harai-goshi-combined-with-leg-hair-tweak but I don't think I had the right partner to try that one on without more practice. ;)

[Yogi_Bear]

:rofl: Yes! Was thinking about trying the new move I've been working on called head-pat-into-harai-goshi-combined-with-leg-hair-tweak but I don't think I had the right partner to try that one on without more practice. ;)I would also add that touching a woman's hair is a very intimate gesture....and should not be indulged too often! :wink:

[David Bailey]

I would also add that touching a woman's hair is a very intimate gesture....and should not be indulged too often! :wink:
Yeah...? :whistle:

[Daisy Chain]

if a partner does something I like, like a sexy wiggle, or multiple spins, or just seems to do a move superbly, I often say things to her like "beautifully done". Is that sort of thing seen as condescending too? :innocent:

Sometimes, as I come out of a multiple spin, I notice that the man is standing still with his hand out looking a little lost and lonely. When I eventually take his proffered hand, I often say "Ooo sorry, did I keep you waiting?"

Daisy

(A Tardy Little Flower)

[Daisy Chain]

This is maybe just a personal thing to me. For some reason I find comments during the dance a little condescending.




If a man does an unsual or really nice move, I often say "Oooo, I like that move you just did" in the hopes that the man will use it again on a future occasion.

Daisy

(An Impressed Little Flower)

[Daisy Chain]

I would also add that touching a woman's hair is a very intimate gesture....and should not be indulged too often! :wink:

Especially if she has just been professionally blown by her hairdresser :angry:


Daisy

(A Coiffed Little Flower)

[David Bailey]

When I eventually take his proffered hand, I often say "Ooo sorry, did I keep you waiting?"
Assuming he's still there of course, and that he hasn't walked away, got a cup of tea, read War and Peace...

We should collect a "Great condescending lines we have received / given" list... :)

[Trish]

:rofl: :rofl:

I started reading this thread, and instantly thought of those annoying types who lead a move, it doesn't work, for what ever reason (bad lead, bad following, naff move (- tunnels etc), etc) then they try it again and it still doesn't work. I guess the main thing, for me, is when it didn't work did they scowl at me as if it's my fault, or laugh and then try again. Did I say "I hate that move" or did they smile and say "lets try that again" to which I could reply "no" !!! If its made to be fun then its less of a problem / condescending, if its made to be totally the girls fault then I remember the phrase "The guy is in charge, if it goes wrong its his fault, always" .... :rofl: :rofl:

Remember, its supposed to be fun. :rofl:

Of course its totally different in a class / practicing / learning situation - eg nose quins, where we are repeating moving and trying to get them right, perfect them etc, compared to a total freestyle night / freestyle dance.

I hope that makes sense, and of course, as ever, all IMHO :rofl:

Yes, that's exactly what I was thinking - It's all in the sense of enjoying the dance and trying to perfect it (whether it's the leader perfecting the lead, or follower understanding it), or looking down your nose at someone - which isn't very nice.

[Petal]

I
I'm going to regret this, I bet someone pats me on the head now and I'll probably deserve it!

This will be arranged for the next class. :whistle:

[Yogi_Bear]

How about condescending follows - if condescending is the right word - such as
"What am I supposed to be doing?"
"What are we dancing, exactly?"
Or most meaningless reason for refusing offer of a dance:
"No, I'm all right, thanks"
The most condescending way of refusing a dance, of course, has to be just walking off and ignoring the offer - it does happen...

[Petal]

Or most meaningless reason for refusing offer of a dance:
"No, I'm all right, thanks"
...

or just "NO" and no reasons given and they immediately choose someone else to dance with. :sad:

[JoC]

"What am I supposed to be doing?"

Oops! :blush: Is that a legitimate question if you've been condescended to first...?

I must remember though, today I am speading love and warmth so all is forgiven and I assume everyone reciprocates and forgives me.

[Yogi_Bear]

or just "NO" and no reasons given and they immediately choose someone else to dance with. :sad:Exactly - very poor form...and can work in reverse, of course. Just as bad if they give reasons...and then immediately dance with someone else without any sign of the apparent 'tiredness' or whatever... :wink:

[Yogi_Bear]

Another
"Why have you stopped dancing?"
thinks...."Because there's a break...oh, never mind" :rolleyes:

[Gadget]

"What are we dancing, exactly?"
I've had "What are you dancing? Because it's not Ceroc!" :sick:

[Lory]

"What am I supposed to be doing?"

I've said that loads of times, usually to much better dancers than myself but I definitely didn't mean to be condescending, I really and honestly wanted to know! :blush:

[MartinHarper]

How about condescending follows

Shoo! Get your own thread!
:)

[Rhythm King]

Another
"Why have you stopped dancing?"
thinks...."Because there's a break...oh, never mind" :rolleyes:

Should be in the quotes thread I know but...

on a recent dance holiday, I hit a break with a lady, who looked askance at me and said "oh, you're one of those are you?

:rofl: or :tears: , not sure which first though

R-K :flower:

[Daintyfeet]

I'm relatively new to MJ. Last Monday, I was happily dancing with a man when he said, in a condescending tone: "You are allowed to smile while you're dancing, you know".

I was so taken aback, all I could think to say in reply was "Oh, sorry, I was trying to concentrate on the moves".

When I returned to my friends after the dance and told them, they were equally astounded. They are all experienced dancers and felt the comment was out of order.

Of course, I then spent the rest of the evening smiling inanely with every other man that I danced with...

[El Salsero Gringo]

I'm relatively new to MJ. Last Monday, I was happily dancing with a man when he said, in a condescending tone: "You are allowed to smile while you're dancing, you know".

I was so taken aback, all I could think to say in reply was "Oh, sorry, I was trying to concentrate on the moves".

When I returned to my friends after the dance and told them, they were equally astounded. They are all experienced dancers and felt the comment was out of order.

Of course, I then spent the rest of the evening smiling inanely with every other man that I danced with...Hello Daintyfeet,

A big warm welcome to MJ, and to the Forum. I'm sure everyone will join me in wishing you many happy hours reading and posting.

Getting back to your comments: it might well have been me that said it, depending on the venue, although I honestly wouldn't have intended it to be patronising. Humble and sincere apologies on his and my behalf. Making something constructive out of your comment though, let me ask you, what do you think was on the guy's mind when he said that?

Speaking only for myself, I find very little pleasure in dancing with someone who remains resolutely stony-faced for three minutes (not that you were, of course) which might be because they're concentrating very hard on what they're doing - totally understandably, or else because they're bored stiff, or their partner (ie me) has suddenly gained an unpleasant odour, or some other reason.

So half a minute into a song with a partner whose face still looks like a thundercloud set in jelly, I'm always tempted to make such a lame comment, or crack some kind of joke, just to see if my partner's actually dancing with me or just using me like an animated broomstick to practice her moves.

Sorry if you took offence, but do remember that it's so much more pleasant to dance with someone who looks like they want to be with you for those three minutes....

[El Salsero Gringo]

....which reminds me of the time a few years ago at the Jive Bar when a lady of much more experience in MJ than I stopped me in the middle of our dance and told me I wasn't dancing on the beat. She insisted that I count out loud through four bars of music ("One, two, three, four...") joining in in her loudest school-mistress voice - before she'd let me carry on dancing.

[bigdjiver]

I'm relatively new to MJ. Last Monday, I was happily dancing with a man when he said, in a condescending tone: "You are allowed to smile while you're dancing, you know".
I was so taken aback, all I could think to say in reply was "Oh, sorry, I was trying to concentrate on the moves". :blush: Been there, done that ... :blush:

When I returned to my friends after the dance and told them, they were equally astounded. They are all experienced dancers and felt the comment was out of order. That's what friends are for.


Of course, I then spent the rest of the evening smiling inanely with every other man that I danced with... :devil: and that is why I will probably do it again :devil:

Concentrating with an appearance of deep pain was one of my beginner sins. In those days my partners were expected not to smile. Now I will try all of my tricks to get that first smile.

[David Bailey]

Hell, I've just realised I'm probably condescending all the time... :blush:

I remembered another habit - when dancing with beginner who is staring at her feet when dancing, I sometimes put a hand on her chin, tip their faces up a little to face level, and make some gesture to say "look at me, not the floor". I used to think this was helpful, now I'm wondering if everyone thought I was an Evil Condescender...

This is why I never attempt to teach - too much fear of looking like a smartass. (Insert obligatory ESG joke _here_).

[El Salsero Gringo]

Hell, I've just realised I'm probably condescending all the time... :blush: Yup, me too, by the sound of it.
I remembered another habit - when dancing with beginner who is staring at her feet when dancing, I sometimes put a hand on her chin, tip their faces up a little to face level, and make some gesture to say "look at me, not the floor". I used to think this was helpful, now I'm wondering if everyone thought I was an Evil Condescender...A sharp tweak on the nose, followed by a pat on the head and an "aren't you GOOD girlie!!?" works everytime for me.

[Daintyfeet]

Well, actually I'm never stony-faced! My natural expression is a smile... And two of my friends remarked that I do smile whenever I'm dancing with them.

As to what was on the man's mind when he said it - perhaps he's just a miserable *** who likes having a pop at other people in order to raise his low self-esteem!
Or perhaps he says it to every woman he dances with. I must say I was finding his leads unclear and so that's probably why I wasn't smiling! I'll look out for him next time and try watching the faces of the other ladies he dances with.

And as to looking like I want to be with the person I'm dancing with - being new I am just so grateful to anybody who asks me to dance that I thank them profusely at the beginning, as well as at the end.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Well, actually I'm never stony-faced! My natural expression is a smile... And two of my friends remarked that I do smile whenever I'm dancing with them.

As to what was on the man's mind when he said it - perhaps he's just a miserable *** who likes having a pop at other people in order to raise his low self-esteem!
Or perhaps he says it to every woman he dances with. I must say I was finding his leads unclear and so that's probably why I wasn't smiling! I'll look out for him next time and try watching the faces of the other ladies he dances with.

And as to looking like I want to be with the person I'm dancing with - being new I am just so grateful to anybody who asks me to dance that I thank them profusely at the beginning, as well as at the end.Wow. If the dancers to whom you're grateful get slagged off in public as condescending miserable gits with low self-esteem who can't lead, I can't wait to find out how you'd describe someone you don't want to dance with!

:whistle:

[Little Monkey]

I don't like it when someone (usually someone you don't know or who dances with you infrequently) picks a move (that they've usualy lead badly) and repeats it over and over again until you (by some strange coincidence, as they've still not lead it properly) do what they want you to do and then they say something like "See, it's not that difficult is it?!"


:yeah:
I've had the same thing happening to me, and it's VERY annoying! Also followed by pat on the shoulder, patronising smile and "well done". :angry: I've also had people trying to lead moves I know well, but in such a bad way that I simply don't have a clue what they're trying to do (!!), until the guy starts to explain what he wants me to do. I have in some cases tried to give him some helpful hints about his lead, trying to explain that if the move isn't lead properly, the girl can't possibly know what he wants her to do.... :rolleyes:


{snip}..... even though his lead was completely wrong, I didn't wish to appear rude so I did what he'd showed me and with that, he turned to me, with a contented and smug smile, and proudly said, there you go, you've almost got it now! :what:


Yep, experienced this, too....... :mad: Have danced with relative beginners (or people who have only danced for a few months), where they have done only beginners moves, and explained throughout the dance what they want me to do! ( Yeah, you step back, great, then to my side, well done, then you kind of twist, twist, then spin, great!) Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!!! :angry:

I must admit that after dancing with people like this, face frozen in what is probably a very stiff grin (biting my tongue so I won't scream: "if you want me to follow, learn to lead! In the meantime SHUT UP!!!"), I try to pick a partner who I love dancing with, and who is a bit of a show-off, then try to dance in front of where my previous partner is sitting....... Ooooh, bitch, me... Sorry....

LM :flower:

[El Salsero Gringo]

You know, one of the things that I find most condescending is when someone you're dancing with pretends to be following your lead, or pretends to smile, or pretends to enjoy themselves, or otherwise fakes some part of their dance, and then comes on to a public forum to bitch about it behind your back.

If we're not doing something right, then "playing along" isn't going to do anything but make the problem worse - whatever your motives (and being condescending is *always* done with the best motives.)

At least the lady that thought I was dancing off the beat had the strength of character to say something about it at the time.

Please, please, be clear, be precise, say what you don't like - at the time - then we can put it right.

Thank you all

:flower:

[bigdjiver]

I think that, perhaps, anybody reading this thread should remember that most of the lady contributors here have been dancing a long time, and are rather good at it. It is just possible the the "Well done" that will send you straight to hell if delivered to one of these, may just make the evening for a nervous beginner.

If an experienced lady is not smiling they probably have no reason to smile, and the fault is probably with the lead. Even then it may be nothing that the lead can fix. If a beginner is not smiling then it may indeed be because they are concentrating. For many beginners concentrating on smiling may be a better strategy in the long run. one reason is that you will not get the dances needed to improve if you look like you are in pain. Another reason is that dancing is about communication, and facial expression is a fundamental form of communication.
Jerome K Jerome wrote that he could contract a disease just by reading about it. I know how he felt. Either I am sometimes arrogant and condescending, or I have contracted those faults just by reading about them. :tears:
I may have to take a longer route home to consider these extra matters.

[Mary]

First of all I have tons of admiration for all those guys (and girls) out there who can lead. I think I am pants at leading, although I think I know how I like to be lead - basically if I can follow it then it's been led well.

On the social dance floor if I am lead, well, not great then that is not really the time or place to say anything - it sounds like nagging. If I am leading in a class I am always asking my partner for feedback. Tried leading at a Jango class (phew, hard or what!), but got loads out of in terms of leading precisely and had a spread of abilities in followers, and it became very clear when I was leading badly. Then trying to do it with timing......aargh. I had loads of giggles (and I think most of my partners did as well), and got loads of feedback and correction.

I think I have a lot more patience with guys who have not been dancing long and may (if the opportunity presents itself) suggest some things that might make some stuff easier. However, I suppose I must sound condescending when I say 'thanks' to people who I know have been dancing a while and should know better. And yes, I am very guilty of saying 'thank you, that was lovely' even when I have had my arm bounced out of it's socket!! It's just I'm a bad liar!!! Is that so bad? And I'm sure I've been on the receiving end of the same. I just live with it and try and improve.

Oh, dear, way past my bedtime. I must be an addict.

M

[JoC]

Since my original post I am now receiving a regular pat on the head.
:rofl: That'll teach me!!!

Be careful what you post here...

[David Bailey]

I think that, perhaps, anybody reading this thread should remember that most of the lady contributors here have been dancing a long time, and are rather good at it. It is just possible the the "Well done" that will send you straight to hell if delivered to one of these, may just make the evening for a nervous beginner.
:yeah: and many times :yeah:

There's definitely a fine line between condescending and encouraging, and sometimes it seems to be in the perception rather than the intention.

I also think through reading this thread, if I took it too seriously I'd actually make my dancing worse - I'd spending all my time wondering whether I was being condescending, and no time actually giving a lead. Let's not overreact to a very very specific and very infrequent complaints on either side.

This is the most divisive thread since, well, at least a week ago - can I just go against all my natural instincts here and call for a bit of calm?

Leaders: I don't believe you're seen as condescending 99% of the time. Please carry on providing encouragement as you have been; it's generally appreciated, especially by beginners.

Followers: I don't believe leaders try to be condescending 99% of the time. Give leaders the benefit of the doubt, and assume they're trying to help and encourage you, rather than patronize you.

Everyone - pat JoC on the head at every opportunity :)

[Mary]

Now I'm awake I have just read my response to this thread - think I was way off the point, sorry folks.

And I don't mind a pat on the head - most people do it 'cos I'm so short. I don't mind guys 'appearing' to be condescending (sometimes things sound condescending when they are not meant to be - it just comes out all wrong). So long as they are not rude I don't really mind.

M

[Little Monkey]

You know, one of the things that I find most condescending is when someone you're dancing with pretends to be following your lead, or pretends to smile, or pretends to enjoy themselves, or otherwise fakes some part of their dance, and then comes on to a public forum to bitch about it behind your back.

If we're not doing something right, then "playing along" isn't going to do anything but make the problem worse - whatever your motives (and being condescending is *always* done with the best motives.)


Actually, a few people take quite badly to being "corrected"..... Although I think you're right that most people appreciate being told they're doing something wrong, so they can correct it and become better dancers!

In most cases if a man is clearly leading a move wrong, I do try to say "maybe you should try xxxxx. That'll make the lead much clearer and easier to follow." It's just when the guy really thinks he's fab, and really patronizes you that I do my "grin-and-bear-it" act. It's all to do with the guy's attitude and the way he treats his dance partner.... And very often, if a man leads something I can't follow, I do say something like "Ooops, I have no clue what to do! Sorry! Could you show me that move again?" I make mistakes like everyone else, and do appreciate it if a guy takes time to do the move again, to show me what I'm doing wrong.

I think most people who have posted on this thread so far are describing general situations/behaviour rather than bitching about someone specific... I know I did....

Hmmmm, maybe we need another poll? "Do you fake it on the dance floor"? ESG - this seems to be your area of speciality.... ;) :rolleyes:

LM

[El Salsero Gringo]

Actually, a few people take quite badly to being "corrected"..... Although I think you're right that most people appreciate being told they're doing something wrong, so they can correct it and become better dancers!

In most cases if a man is clearly leading a move wrong, I do try to say "maybe you should try xxxxx. That'll make the lead much clearer and easier to follow." It's just when the guy really thinks he's fab, and really patronizes you that I do my "grin-and-bear-it" act. It's all to do with the guy's attitude and the way he treats his dance partner.... And very often, if a man leads something I can't follow, I do say something like "Ooops, I have no clue what to do! Sorry! Could you show me that move again?" I make mistakes like everyone else, and do appreciate it if a guy takes time to do the move again, to show me what I'm doing wrong.

I think most people who have posted on this thread so far are describing general situations/behaviour rather than bitching about someone specific... I know I did....

Hmmmm, maybe we need another poll? "Do you fake it on the dance floor"? ESG - this seems to be your area of speciality.... ;) :rolleyes:

LMI assume everyone 'fakes it' on the dance floor to some extent, after all not *every* dance is going to be great fun - and Mary's right to say that the social dance-floor is not the place for an extended teaching session. But if you do pass up the opportunity to deal with it at the time, how kind is it to bitch about it here afterwards?

If I had consented to being subjected to forty repetitions of the same poorly lead move because I refused to tell the man - "enough now!" - then actually I'd be the one feeling pretty stupid at the end of the dance. And then if I wrote all about it on this thread it would be only to poke fun at myself for having put up with it.

To be honest, if someone does or says something to me that I find condescending, I assume it's my fault for mistaking their intent or misreading the context. I envy some their unshakeable conviction that however much anyone's behaviour offends or upsets them, they have done nothing to contribute to it.

(And thank-you LM, for being one of those people who are prepared to say when we get it wrong.)

[MartinHarper]

I'm quite incapable of spotting condescension, so someone can quite happilly patronise me for an entire dance ("ooh, another first move! how original!") without me realising. Ignorance is bliss, eh? :)


Actually, a few people take quite badly to being "corrected".....

Indeed - some of them find being "corrected" condescending, for example... :)

[JoC]

Everyone - pat JoC on the head at every opportunity :)

This is playing havoc with my attempts to create a dangerous and seductive alter-ego.

And hands up who's complelety paranoid about every smile, laugh and comment now :rofl:

Have decided to turn evil to avoid any further confusion.

[Rhythm King]

Have decided to turn evil to avoid any further confusion.

There there, never mind little Jo, pat pat...







(:devil: Muhuhuhuhuhuhurrrr!)

[Dreadful Scathe]

And I don't mind a pat on the head

Ill make a point of it next time we dance Mary :) Course a pat on the bottom is probably sexist so Ill save that for Tony :)

[Dreadful Scathe]

:yeah:
I've had the same thing happening to me, and it's VERY annoying! Also followed by pat on the shoulder, patronising smile and "well done". :angry: I've also had people trying to lead moves I know well, but in such a bad way that I simply don't have a clue what they're trying to do (!!), until the guy starts to explain what he wants me to do. I have in some cases tried to give him some helpful hints about his lead, trying to explain that if the move isn't lead properly, the girl can't possibly know what he wants her to do.... :rolleyes:


Ive never much worried about that, I do tend to say Sorry a lot for confusing leads and just generally dancing rubbish, but I try to see every mistake as just a variation on the move I was actually trying to do - so as long as it fits the music :) I do sometimes repeat a move if i REALLY buggered it up completely which caused my partner to ad-lib and 9 times out of 10 she gets it the 2nd time, because I actually lead it properly :) Its comments like LMs that make me realise Im maybe not as bad as I think I am, which is good as I need the confidence. (and please no ..."oh you are good " follow ups...its just a comment :) )

[bigdjiver]

I danced with a first timer yesterday. Afterwards I told her that she had done very well, and that some of the moves we had done were not beginner moves. I did not think that was "condescending". Her next partner might disagree. It was a Taxi-dancer, and he put her into a single-handed, very shaky, drop, her hair almost touching the floor. :eek:

[Petal]

It was a Taxi-dancer, and he put her into a single-handed, very shaky, drop, her hair almost touching the floor. :eek:

Hope she doesn't scare easily, that would have put me off coming back to ceroc when i first started. :tears:

[Northants Girly]

I danced with a first timer yesterday. Afterwards I told her that she had done very well, and that some of the moves we had done were not beginner moves. I did not think that was "condescending". Her next partner might disagree. It was a Taxi-dancer, and he put her into a single-handed, very shaky, drop, her hair almost touching the floor. :eek:Was that at Bedford? :what:

Mmmmm . . . .

[bigdjiver]

Was that at Bedford? :what:

Mmmmm . . . .No MJ in Bedford on a Wednesday, alas, only three nights a week + freestyles.

[LMC]

It is just possible the the "Well done" that will send you straight to hell if delivered to one of these, may just make the evening for a nervous beginner.

:yeah:

But please be specific - "well done" can sound really condescending sometimes, as it don't really mean anything and a beginner (well, I may only be speaking for me here, to be fair) might think you are just being nice, because most of us are well aware that you experienced guys will probably have a more fun dance with a more experienced partner and appreciate you taking time out to "show us the ropes". (NB OK, I know this probably does not apply if the beginner lady is drop-dead gorgeous :rolleyes: ). I should punctuate that shouldn't I? WTH.

Getting back to the point - someone telling me that I follow well for a newbie, followed by a bit of constructive criticism/advice on what I could do better shows that they have been paying attention to me ( :rofl: @ needy me) and have put some thought into the 3.5 mins 'experience'. Means WAY more than "well done". IMVHO.

[David Bailey]

Getting back to the point - someone telling me that I follow well for a newbie, followed by a bit of constructive criticism/advice on what I could do better shows that they have been paying attention to me ( :rofl: @ needy me) and have put some thought into the 3.5 mins 'experience'. Means WAY more than "well done". IMVHO.
Can't deny it, but most of us men are just lazy - plus, after this thread, we're all way too scared of commenting on anybody's dance style :D

Also, I've had people ask me "what can I do better" and I just can't remember - generally I'm paying too much attention to the dancing to analyse someone's technique, unless I'm asked to do so beforehand.

Plus, there's the whole British thing of not wanting to criticize. Dumb, but it's there...

[LMC]

Forgot :blush:

If a beginner is not smiling then it may indeed be because they are concentrating.

:yeah:


For many beginners concentrating on smiling may be a better strategy in the long run. one reason is that you will not get the dances needed to improve if you look like you are in pain. Another reason is that dancing is about communication, and facial expression is a fundamental form of communication..

Noted, thanks :D <<< practising

[mick]

This thread makes mj seem like some kind of gruelling experience!

[bigdjiver]

This thread makes mj seem like some kind of gruelling experience! :yeah: Am I allowed to tell my partner that I like her dress?

[Northants Girly]

:yeah: Am I allowed to tell my partner that I like her dress? . . Yes

[ducasi]

I think you also get extra points for saying you like her shoes. :wink:

[DavidB]

This thread makes mj seem like some kind of gruelling experience!It is. That is why people keep saying "Please Sir, can I have some more?"

[Little Monkey]

(And thank-you LM, for being one of those people who are prepared to say when we get it wrong.)

You're welcome! :flower: As long as people don't pat me on the head and talk to me as if I'm a clever little doggie, I'll be nice and help if someone's stuck with a move. If not, I will be Evil Monkey with the Stony Face or Frozen Grin! :devil: :rofl: Very scary.



Indeed - some of them find being "corrected" condescending, for example...

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: Ooooh, this could get SO complicated!!! Maybe I should just shut up and dance..... Or just stop dancing, in case my footwork/shoes/smile/hairstyle/dance style might seem condescending/offensive to someone..... :whistle:


Ive never much worried about that, I do tend to say Sorry a lot for confusing leads and just generally dancing rubbish, but I try to see every mistake as just a variation on the move I was actually trying to do - so as long as it fits the music :) I do sometimes repeat a move if i REALLY buggered it up completely which caused my partner to ad-lib and 9 times out of 10 she gets it the 2nd time, because I actually lead it properly :) Its comments like LMs that make me realise Im maybe not as bad as I think I am, which is good as I need the confidence. (and please no ..."oh you are good " follow ups...its just a comment :) )

Sometimes mistakes work, and I've danced with guys who have done moves I've never seen before, and when I say "Wow! That was a cool move! Where did you learn that?", they reply "I haven't got a clue what I was doing there! Did it work?" :rofl: :rofl:

Ooooh, and Mr. Smurf, I can't wait to dance with you again! We can spend the entire dance apologising to each other for not leading/following properly! :D I keep saying sorry every time I don't follow properly, and some of my mates keep telling me off for doing so....

Anyway. I'll go away and practice smiling, saying sorry and NOT being condescending or bithcy now. ;) And hopefully a couple of people will still want to dance with me in the future....

Cheeky Little Monkey

[jockey]

I don't like it when someone (usually someone you don't know or who dances with you infrequently) picks a move (that they've usualy lead badly) and repeats it over and over again until you (by some strange coincidence, as they've still not lead it properly) do what they want you to do and then they say something like "See, it's not that difficult is it?!" :angry:
It's one thing to be taught a move by a teacher, but when some irritating so-and-so who thinks they know best decided that you need training to do their moves it gets my back up. There are ways and ways of getting people to do what you want - I might suggest that leading it correctly would be the first and best option! :rolleyes:
S. x
I can sympathise with this post to some extent but I would like to offer a different point of view, Sparkles....
First you have created a "straw man" - the dancer who repeats a move that didnt "take" "over and over again" until it takes and makes a patronising remark when all the time the fault usually lies in the lead. This may happen but more common is the scenario where an experienced dancer visits a new venue leads something unusual and tolerably well and the girl doesnt get it - the accepted (and acceptable, I maintain) thing to do is to repeat the move. This says - " I can tell you are a good dancer and the least I can do is try it again so you can see what I am getting at.." ; " if I dont repeat it you may think I think you cant do it and it would be insulting of me to leave you with that impression.."
Of course what the lead is up to vis a vis his ego and that of the girl can only be guessed at but, speaking for myself, I try to respect my partner and give her the best dance I can using my best moves in the belief that she will welcome something a bit different occasionally. This view should be distinguished from the well known practice of "testing" your partner.. which girls tell me they dont appreciate...Anyhow you are good but sorry about that overenthusiastic screwdriver at GWich..

[jockey]

Though I have been jiving for 5 years or more I still do a lot of classes, sometimes at far flung venues. Now, since the classes preceed the freestyle I leave myself open to plenty of condescention (sp?) as, to all intents and purposes one is Joe Bloggs as far as the class is concerned and EVERYONE assumes we are all of the same (low) standard.
The other week this occurred in spades: my Basque partner wanted to do Minnies Latin American workshop in Sussex..you do the beginners and I will do the intermediate, she said. Yes, says me (foolish boy..)
Now one has done a few manhattans in one"s time and one knows all about the "frame" dont ye know and I found myself having to cope with "spaghetti arms (is that appropriate for a salsa class, or what?) with a young lady who was fully aware that were a few plucky modern jivers around trying to pick up some "proper footwork". Becoming increasingly frustrated over dancing with porridge I suggested that we adjust our "frame" a tad, to which she replied, quick as a flash, "you are a jiver, aren"t you...." implying that I knew nothing and had some cheek attempting to correct her salsaing. We both downed tools and stood there arms crossed for the remainder of that section!

[David Bailey]

This may happen but more common is the scenario where an experienced dancer visits a new venue leads something unusual and tolerably well and the girl doesnt get it - the accepted (and acceptable, I maintain) thing to do is to repeat the move. This says - " I can tell you are a good dancer and the least I can do is try it again so you can see what I am getting at.." ; " if I dont repeat it you may think I think you cant do it and it would be insulting of me to leave you with that impression.."
:yeah:
Excellent point, Mr Jockey - that's what I was trying to say, but couldn't because of lack of articulacy.

Repeating a move isn't a bad thing - multiple repeats, maybe, but a repeat of a move, if the lead is sure he's leading it OK, is a good way to demonstrate something which may be new to the follower.

A classic example is this straightjacket (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5241) move. I'd say approximately 50% of the followers I do this with, the first time, they either get it wrong or get a look of terror on their faces. I carry on trying it, however, not because I'm a sadist, but because when you do get it right, it's a lovely move.

And that's one of the few moves that the follower can and does mess up - i.e. an anticipation trap. But I still do it, because it's a good move - did it lots of times just last night at Hipsters, for example (and where were all you forumites? Didn't see anyone... :sad: )


Becoming increasingly frustrated over dancing with porridge I suggested that we adjust our "frame" a tad, to which she replied, quick as a flash, "you are a jiver, aren"t you...." implying that I knew nothing and had some cheek attempting to correct her salsaing. We both downed tools and stood there arms crossed for the remainder of that section!
:rofl:
It's so true - I always think it's amusing that salseros (and salseras) think they have a "proper" dance in salsa, but Modern Jive isn't "proper", when the only real difference is that salsa has a small amount of defined footwork, and a more limited set of dancing options...

[Mr Cool]

And it wouldn't help me - we've got different names for things around here...

Good question. My biggest hate is when I've failed to perform a move with a partner & he just turns to me and says "Oh, you don't know that one, then? We do it at such-and-such venue". I find that very condescending. ;)

We also have one chap here who over-emphasises the move, signals loudly, and points to where he wants you to step, etc... It looks a bit naff, IMO. But some ladies might like it.

Real dance is about lead and follow. If the man cannot lead the move it is his problem. I think most ladies would agree that they want to be led with style and cofidence, and many prefer to be given time to add their own footwork shimmies etc. Gentelmen before you lead that lady into a complicated knot of a move think style think less is more.
:waycool: :waycool: :waycool: :waycool:

[Minnie M]

Real dance is about lead and follow. If the man cannot lead the move it is his problem. I think most ladies would agree that they want to be led with style and cofidence, and many prefer to be given time to add their own footwork shimmies etc. Gentelmen before you lead that lady into a complicated knot of a move think style think less is more.
:waycool: :waycool: :waycool: :waycool:

Wellllllllllllllllllllllllcommmmmmmmmmme :drool: Mr.Cool - where do you dance :blush: can I have a dance please :worthy: :blush: ;)

(just checked your location - I should have said when will you be dancing in the London area etc - Swindon is too far for me to travel to)

[Mr Cool]

Wellllllllllllllllllllllllcommmmmmmmmmme :drool: Mr.Cool - where do you dance :blush: can I have a dance please :worthy: :blush: ;)

(just checked your location - I should have said when will you be dancing in the London area etc - Swindon is too far for me to travel to)
Well as it happens I was at Hipsters last night I like to go big Freestyle events MJ or Swing I have been to the dances at hove town hall in the past so we have probably danced already

[Lory]

I was at Hipsters last night
So was I! Wonder if we danced :confused:

p.s. welcome to the forum! :nice:

[Minnie M]

Well as it happens I was at Hipsters last night I like to go big Freestyle events MJ or Swing I have been to the dances at hove town hall in the past so we have probably danced already
Didn't go last night :tears: mind you even if I did, don't know who you are :blush:

BTW I only go to the Phil's Charitry events at Hove Town Hall (not the other organiser :innocent: ) cors Phil's Events for Charity are the BEST...... next one is the Southport Weekend which is a shame as I would have gone

Looking forward to meeting you Mr. Cool, and then will introduce you to the rest of the gang (if you want me to that is :whistle: )

{apologies for going off thread}

[Lou]

Looking forward to meeting you Mr. Cool, and then will introduce you to the rest of the gang (if you want me to that is :whistle: )
Even more off topic:-
Ahhh... I know the lovely Mr Cool, and have danced with him on several occasions, including once in the middle of Swindon town centre. Might see you later, Andy, if I can bring myself to venture to Swindon tonight. Have you got your fancy dress sorted? Oh, and welcome to this forum, too... :D

[Mr Cool]

Didn't go last night :tears: mind you even if I did, don't know who you are :blush:

BTW I only go to the Phil's Charitry events at Hove Town Hall (not the other organiser :innocent: ) cors Phil's Events for Charity are the BEST...... next one is the Southport Weekend which is a shame as I would have gone

Looking forward to meeting you Mr. Cool, and then will introduce you to the rest of the gang (if you want me to that is :whistle: )

{apologies for going off thread}
I dance any where all I need is music that makes my feet want to dance and theres a lady with Rythm. I have been to at least two of the big charity events at Hove shame they seem to have stopped. Whats happened? I probably know your mates as i have danced with many ladies from the Brighton area at different events including Camber, (I love the music in the swing and blues room) and yes I am going to Southport next weekend it was great in September.
:waycool: :waycool: :waycool: :waycool:

[Mr Cool]

:
So was I! Wonder if we danced :confused:

p.s. welcome to the forum! :nice:


Thanks for the greeting I dont think we danced last night. Its a little while since I have been to Hipsters and I enjoyed it how would you describe the optimum lead? :waycool: :waycool: :waycool: :waycool:

[David Bailey]

Hi Mr Cool and welcome!

Alas, for our first correspondence, I have to disagree slightly...


If the man cannot lead the move it is his problem.
There's a lot of truth in this - most of the time, if a move goes wrong, it's because it's not well-led.

However, some moves do depend on the follower being able to follow - in the case of the straightjacket especially; I first learnt it from Mike Ellard a while back, and he specifically taught it as an anticipation-trap. In other words, if the follower anticipates by turning or moving (instead of basically just standing still / wiggling), then the follower will wreck the move, and there's very little the leader can do about it apart from frown disapprovingly :)

Note: I wouldn't generally advocate anticipation trap moves (it's too much like entrapment), but I liked the move, so I use it - at least with people I think can follow it.

So, the straightjacket can be well-led, but wrecked by poor following - this to me is a classic example of where "it's always the leader's fault" does not apply.

I think most ladies would agree that they want to be led with style and cofidence, Can't disagree there :innocent:


and many prefer to be given time to add their own footwork shimmies etc.Some do, some don't, but yes, "many" although not IMO "most".


Gentelmen before you lead that lady into a complicated knot of a move think style think less is more.
:yeah: many times over - complex moves are not by themselves good, and I'd never attempt to prove otherwise - too many move monsters out there as it is :eek:

However, complex moves done well don't look any worse than basic moves done well :)