Should shines be included in MJ?

[El Salsero Gringo]

I think shines could be taught in MJ and would make a nice addition to the standard repertoire of moves.

For anyone who's not sure, a shine is where you separate from your partner for some number of beats and each do separate 'fancy footwork', mirroring or watching each other. Then you come back together pick up the lead and carry on dancing. They're very common in some types of Salsa.

Anyone agree/disagree that we could use them in MJ?

(request to the moderators to move here some of the end posts in http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4744 say from post 90 onwards?)

[Divissima]

If enough people were interested, maybe we could arrange a lesson/mini-workshop. And maybe we could persuade the lovely Simon...... :clap:

[David Bailey]

Yes, what the hell - I've got my reservations about how they would transfer to MJ, but I'd like to see someone try :)

[Andreas]

I do throw shines into MJ every now and again. They do work well if the music is in a state os 'suspense' for quite some time. A number of pieces turn relatively monotonous for more than two bars of music. In that case, which usually is a good place for girls to do a solo play, the girls do run out of ideas reasonably quickly. Then it is useful to know shines and help the girl out of her miseery by taking over.

The danger I see with shines is, similar to Salsa, they may take over large parts of the dance when one of the two partners feels like they have to show the other person up. We all know that some people are more showy than others and shines can easily destroy a dance.

Even in Salsa I am hesitant doing shines before I know what the girl can do, in order to do something similar and not too over the top. The danger is here that people are more interested in complex shines that look increadibly impressive than in simple moves that work with what the other person can provide. Another risk is that people do not learn to break shines apart and/or stay on beat. So you could have somebody doing a whole phrase just solo work while the other person goes for a coffee. And once finished people may not find back to MJ timing. Shines will be executed twice as fast as MJ moves and a lot of peopple will have trouble swinging from one to the other and back.

So that is my pro and con :flower:

[Msfab]

I reakon MJivers could use shines, they could come in quite useful when one becomes separated from a partner during a dance! And instead of standing there wiggling or something that could be your moment to Shine!
'Ive taken up Salsa again'

[foxylady]

I do, frequently, with the right man (and there aren't many of them...)

Foxy

[Purple Sparkler]

I do, frequently, with the right man (and there aren't many of them...)

Foxy

Hmm- might have to get you to show me a few examples if you're at ISH tonight...

[Minnie M]

Hmmm..... sounds fun - they do 'copy the lead' moves in Zydeco which looks really impressive, mind you it takes an experienced follower to do it, are these called shines ?

[MartinHarper]

For:
* Shines are a way to recover more gracefully when I end up too far away from my partner.
* It's another way for us to move our bodies.
* It might convince folks that they can do other things in the slow comb, slow man spin, train, etc, other than walk and/or wiggle.

Against:
* The risk of trying a shine and being met with a blank stare or worse.
* If I want to learn shines I can always go to classes in other dances and learn them there.
* I'm unconvinced that the MJ teaching method is well-suited for teaching shines.

[Gadget]

OK, I'm confused - How do "shines" differ from giving a lady a window to 'do her thang' in? (And how do they differ from the lady "doing her thang"?)

:confused:

[Andreas]

OK, I'm confused - How do "shines" differ from giving a lady a window to 'do her thang' in? (And how do they differ from the lady "doing her thang"?)

:confused:

I believe the shines referred to here are:

1) for both, guys and girls
2) teach girls some more interesting stuff for variety's sake

In the past I used to include shines in my classes but only for girls. For the previously mentioned reasons I did not put them iin for the guys. However, there is sort of a need to do something for girls to avoid seeing bodywaves all over again. It aso stimulates their creativity. We all know, if you don't get taught this stuff you are not likely to present all that much. And if the guy gives you time to play the first thing girls think is usually "c**p, not again me alone" and then they try desperately to remember :rofl: :flower:

[Simon r]

just to clarify again

A salsa shine can be any multiple from a 8 beat count 8 , 24 ,32 and so on.
most are partner shines such as suzy que on a 8 beat up to the longest i know which is a full flair which lasts for a 64 beat count ...
I used to teach shines on a seperate night from salsa and spend an entire lesson teaching three or four shines ....
Most have a verbal signal to insure you both start the shine together but all are leadable but then require the follower to interpret the move quickly enough before it is over...
Shines can also be danced as a group with a caller abit like line dancing... not my cup of tea...
shines mainly come from cuban salsa so as divi said fit straight back into the footwork pattern and tend not to work so well with new york style but i have seen some put shines here as well..
Best place to see the pros check out the two venues at leicester square on a saturday night .... best teacher a guy called Romario owns most of the london venues and really nice bloke....
Si

[Andreas]

I'd discourage from teaching 'partner shines', i.e. shines that are being exectute by both standing in a line. Admittedly, I have included that in the past into a demo routine I choreographed, but don't really want to see it at comps. It breaks the connection and turns to a full show. If shines at all in MJ they should be executed separately. SuzyQ's are a bit different because you can hold on to each other. Still, the dance should be a dialogue, which means no two people should be talking at the same time ;)

[Simon r]

I'd discourage from teaching 'partner shines', i.e. shines that are being exectute by both standing in a line. Admittedly, I have included that in the past into a demo routine I choreographed, but don't really want to see it at comps. It breaks the connection and turns to a full show. If shines at all in MJ they should be executed separately. SuzyQ's are a bit different because you can hold on to each other. Still, the dance should be a dialogue, which means no two people should be talking at the same time ;)
nearly all shines can be mirrored so as with the suzy que you stay facing your partner,
a very large group of dancers in london give a full floor show of just how good this looks...
so this is still partner dancing... Once again this is led by the upper body but does rely sometimes on a verbal signal

Your right dancing is a dialogue but how much stronger is a word if two people are saying the same thing at the same time..
why are you suggesting for comps this works really well in free style as well but be aware a strong lead is required ..
I love it but have not practiced for a couple of years

[Andreas]

but be aware a strong lead is required ..
I love it but have not practiced for a couple of years

I know number of shines but only few of them can actually be led. Calling them names will also only work for a set group.

[El Salsero Gringo]

I'm sure that some person or people could invent or borrow (or just formalise into a teaching script) some solo 'groovy moves' that could be taught as MJ shines - without have to be a direct copy of Salsa ones - just like the moves in Ceroc that are borrowed and adapted from all over the place. They wouldn't have to be just footwork, but there'd need to be some at a whole range of different difficulty levels.

Anyone want to suggest one to start with?

[Sparkles]

Sorry, going slightly off thread here for a sec, but one thing that I loved doing in Salsa was the Rueda (where groups of four or more couple dance in a circle with the 'lead male' being a caller, calling out the moves, so that everyone dances together, frequently swapping partners). If this could be incorporated into Ceroc/MJ I think it would be great fun, esp at party nights etc.

I've been in dances where the guys swap their partners over and back again, and I've been involved in dances wit one leader and more than one follower, and vice versa, but I've never seen anything like the Rueda at a MJ night.

Do you think it would be possible?

Do you think it could be taught?

S. x

[Divissima]

Anyone want to suggest one to start with?You mean post it up here?! :what: I have some ideas but I'm not sure they're fully-formed and ready for public consumption.

I'd be happy to show you at the T-jive, though :wink:

[Divissima]

If this could be incorporated into Ceroc/MJ I think it would be great fun, esp at party nights etc.I like your thinking, oh-Sparkly one. It would be quite fun to have a simple rueda routine that you could have at party nights - you know, DJ could announce it and put on the track and then as many couples as wanted to could join in, either as a single group or in several smaller groups. I guess the problem is that those people there who don't know the routine or don't like the concept might be put off, but if it's only one track in the whole night, maybe it isn't beyond the realms of possibility.

I've seen a great team cabaret from Australia which was a rueda. Looked fantastic.


Do you think it would be possible?

Do you think it could be taught?I'm sure it is and it could be. I've never done it in salsa, but I could lend you the video of the Australian team cabaret if you wanted some ideas for MJ...

[spindr]

Anyone want to suggest one to start with?

If you're going to dance solo to swing music, the following "shines" from Lindy Hop might be ideal:

Boogie forwards
Boogie back
Suzi Q
Shorty George
Tick tock

or just pick some moves from the Madison, e.g. "T-time", etc. Probably easier than trying to shoe horn in shines directly from Salsa.

SpinDr.

[spindr]

I've been in dances where the guys swap their partners over and back again, and I've been involved in dances wit one leader and more than one follower, and vice versa, but I've never seen anything like the Rueda at a MJ night.

Do you think it would be possible?

Do you think it could be taught?

Yes, it's possible. Yes I've seen it taught -- I know it's been taught for MJ by Kerrin from Ginger Jive, and I seem to remember Andy and Rena teaching something on a Beach Boogie video for a swing rueda (with calls like "jelly", "jelly and custard" and "runny custard").

Do I think it's a good idea for jive freestyles -- probably not unless there's way more room than at most of them -- since the rueda "circle" tends to take more room than the same number of dancers freestyling.

SpinDr.

[foxylady]

I like your thinking, oh-Sparkly one. It would be quite fun to have a simple rueda routine that you could have at party nights - you know, DJ could announce it and put on the track and then as many couples as wanted to could join in, either as a single group or in several smaller groups. I guess the problem is that those people there who don't know the routine or don't like the concept might be put off, but if it's only one track in the whole night, maybe it isn't beyond the realms of possibility.

I've seen a great team cabaret from Australia which was a rueda. Looked fantastic.

I'm sure it is and it could be. I've never done it in salsa, but I could lend you the video of the Australian team cabaret if you wanted some ideas for MJ...

Didn't one of the team cabarets at the comps last year have a salsa v jive theme, and do a rueda/swapping partner sort of thing - I remember it being very cleverly done ?? I can't remember the name of the girl who choreographed it, but I think she teaches in surrey/sussex/kent ?

[Lynn]

I like your thinking, oh-Sparkly one. It would be quite fun to have a simple rueda routine that you could have at party nights - you know, DJ could announce it and put on the track and then as many couples as wanted to could join in, either as a single group or in several smaller groups. I guess the problem is that those people there who don't know the routine or don't like the concept might be put off, but if it's only one track in the whole night, maybe it isn't beyond the realms of possibility. I agree that it would be a good idea as a one track a night thing - then if folk didn't want to join in they would only miss one track. People would need to learn the basic la rueda step and some moves, but there would probably be some MJ moves that could be added in and used making it a MJ/rueda mix... well it would be fun to try and see what might work!

[MartinHarper]

Anyone want to suggest one to start with?

Aside from wiggles and walks, which Ceroc already teaches, I'd like to nominate Lindy twist-twists - partly because they're simple, but mainly because they look hot.

[David Bailey]

Aside from wiggles ... which Ceroc already teaches
:what: It does? Where's that then? Not in standard classes, surely...

I can't ever recall being taught to wiggle. Some people might say I should have been, but I can take criticism like a man.

(i.e. I'll run away, hide and cry)

[Purple Sparkler]

:what: It does? Where's that then? Not in standard classes, surely...

I can't ever recall being taught to wiggle. Some people might say I should have been, but I can take criticism like a man.

(i.e. I'll run away, hide and cry)

I've been told to wiggle in standard classes before. It was about 5 years ago (the first time I tried Ceroc) though. Cue many horrible sleazy men insisting on the wiggle. Oh the relief when I started again and we were informed that 'you CAN push the man away...'.

Though even if you're told to wiggle, you can't really be TAUGHT to do it, I don't think. The wiggle has to come from within. Y'know, like that bit in 'Strictly Ballroom'- "where do you feel the rhythm", but with wiggling...

OK. I'll stop now.

[MartinHarper]

Not in standard classes, surely...

Debbie of Ceroc Worcester/Kidderminster occasionally teaches basic wiggling technique in her weekly classes, for use in slow combs and the like. I can't imagine she's unique in that.

[Piglet]

Re wiggles:


Where's that then? Not in standard classes, surely... [/SIZE]

We get taught them in Aberdeen, but its up to the individual most of the time as to how creative (or not) they get. Got taught an extra technique for the comb by Lorna a couple of weeks ago where the lady raises her left arm above her shoulder with her hand placed beside her left ear - wow! I can't believe how nice that wiggle feels now doing that. (I'm sure Lisa also taught it before but I wouldn't have been confident enough or ready to give it a go when she mentioned it).

[David Bailey]

Sorry, going slightly off thread here for a sec, but one thing that I loved doing in Salsa was the Rueda (where groups of four or more couple dance in a circle with the 'lead male' being a caller, calling out the moves, so that everyone dances together, frequently swapping partners). If this could be incorporated into Ceroc/MJ I think it would be great fun, esp at party nights etc.

I've been in dances where the guys swap their partners over and back again, and I've been involved in dances wit one leader and more than one follower, and vice versa, but I've never seen anything like the Rueda at a MJ night.

Do you think it would be possible?

Do you think it could be taught?

S. x
I'd like to see it, certainly - as I recall, some clever, witty and handsome person suggested it here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5269&page=2&pp=28).

It's the only cool group dance I've ever seen, and I don't see why "CircleRoc" couldn't work in MJ. In fact, it may be easier to adapt rueda to MJ, than to introduce shines into MJ - people are used to following directions in MJ...

Rueda looks just as cool with 2 guys and 2 girls, the swapping between partners just looks like magic if you don't know how it works.

[David Bailey]

I've been told to wiggle in standard classes before. It was about 5 years ago (the first time I tried Ceroc) though. Cue many horrible sleazy men insisting on the wiggle. Oh the relief when I started again and we were informed that 'you CAN push the man away...'.

Though even if you're told to wiggle, you can't really be TAUGHT to do it, I don't think. The wiggle has to come from within.
Yes, I was talking about "how to wiggle" rather than being shown wiggle-type moves and then left to fend off sleazy scumbuckets :)

ie. wiggle technique, such as it is. I still think doing Merengue is the best way to learn to wiggle though...


Y'know, like that bit in 'Strictly Ballroom'- "where do you feel the rhythm", but with wiggling...
That was on satellite (UKTV?) last Sat - really great to see it again.

[bigdjiver]

I'd like to see it, certainly - as I recall, some clever, witty and handsome person suggested it here (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5269&page=2&pp=28).

It's the only cool group dance I've ever seen, and I don't see why "CircleRoc" couldn't work in MJ. In fact, it may be easier to adapt rueda to MJ, than to introduce shines into MJ - people are used to following directions in MJ...

Rueda looks just as cool with 2 guys and 2 girls, the swapping between partners just looks like magic if you don't know how it works.As I have stated previously I have once seen a class being taught in a circle "moved on" by passing the follow on to the next guy or waiting space. I loved it, but I never saw it again.

Rueda with two guys and two gals has been taught as a class often in fun nights at Ceroc Central, at at least once in a regular intermediate class. I have never got around to trying to organise it in freestyle.

[Lou]

Re wiggles:
We get taught them in Aberdeen, but its up to the individual most of the time as to how creative (or not) they get.
We also had a fab (ladies only) workshop last Saturday where the wonderful Carol Haines taught us quite a few wiggling techniques as part of her styling class. If you ever get a chance to attend one of these workshops - GRAB IT!

:worthy: :worthy:

Also, Carol mentioned that she's thinking of doing a DVD covering the topics in the workshop - I hope she does, as there will certainly be the demand for it.

p.s. Purple Sparkler - funnily enough, one of the things she touched on in the class was how to nicely keep sleazebags in their place during seducers. :innocent:

[Gadget]

I've been in dances where the guys swap their partners over and back again, and I've been involved in dances wit one leader and more than one follower, and vice versa, but I've never seen anything like the Rueda at a MJ night.

Do you think it would be possible?

Do you think it could be taught?
Mark taught a workshop of that very thing last time he was up in Aberdeen. I have one written down that's was sparked by this and some prior ideas I had, but I will have to talk with Mark before "publishing" it, since he could (rightfully) claim that I stole the majority of the concept behind it.

Yes, it's possable. Yes, it's teachable. Yes, it's fun. But try not to 'steal' partners who are lost in a connection {:blush: sorry Drathzel :flower:}

BTW - this is freestyle, not choriographed.

[spindr]

Also, Carol mentioned that she's thinking of doing a DVD covering the topics in the workshop - I hope she does, as there will certainly be the demand for it.

Lou, check out http://www.irisdebrito.com and her merchandise section -- if you're open minded enough to get past the fact that it's "salsa lady styling" it is a brilliant DVD and probably the only person I know who actually breaks down how to do body waves step by step.

Cheers,
SpinDr.

[Sheepman]

but I've never seen anything like the Rueda at a MJ night.

Do you think it would be possible?

Do you think it could be taught?

S. x
Where've you been?
Obviously not MJC, Beach Boogie, Rock Bottoms.
With Andy, Rena, or Hev Mate involved you know the emphasis is on the laughs!
I shan't be forgetting the one we did in our pyjamas, too early in the morning to be energetic, so we all did it sitting down, chaos, mayhem, and laughter followed...

Greg

[JoC]

Mark taught a workshop of that very thing last time he was up in Aberdeen.

That was a fun workshop, and as I recall the idea was that a bit of partner swapping was going to take place later on near the end of the party that night (I flaked out and had to go home before that bit) :tears: .

I seem to remember it being said that this works best with a group of consenting adults who've made some sort of agreement beforehand that some partner swopping play is about to take place, or you at least need two leads in cahoots beforehand, and be dancing with partners who are likely to be 'game'.

Some time after this course at a party night two of the guys that were at that workshop did a partner swop with myself and another lady (who I don't think was expecting it, not sure what the reaction was :whistle: ).

Think it would need practice to make the switches look good, ('parking' the lady you're 'getting rid of' at the other man's shoulder seemed like a safe option) but twas fun. :grin:

[CJ]

I thought Tramp taught "shines" on a regular basis.

Oh, my mistake...

It should be a comb, and he calls it a "polish!!" :D

[David Bailey]

Think it would need practice to make the switches look good,
:yeah: :yeah:

That's the part that looks magic, and that's the part that also looks difficult. Funny how those two often combine... :innocent:

[JoC]

:yeah: :yeah:

That's the part that looks magic, and that's the part that also looks difficult. Funny how those two often combine... :innocent:

The 'parking' option I mentioned didn't seem so tricky, you sidle up to your swop couple behind the lead, then deftly place your follower's hand on the other lead's shoulder while you sweep round (meanwhile the parked follower grooves away enjoying the rear view) and steal the other follower at which point the other leader can niftily turn into the welcoming arms of the new follower. Nice :) Does that make any sense?!?

[Debster]

and I don't see why "CircleRoc" couldn't work in MJ. In fact, it may be easier to adapt rueda to MJ, than to introduce shines into MJ - people are used to following directions in MJ...
Good name! Wish I'd seen this thread before I taught a little progressive routine at our party tonight, I could have called it CircleRoc and sounded far more impressive. ;) The routine was not quite as sophisticated as rueda I admit but it had the desired effect. (i.e. rotating everyone around to be social)

It looked a bit of a disaster at times, but everyone said it was great. Phew! We also included a little spot prize to make sure everyone took part, and kept it simple for the beginners.

I'm still curious about shiners... I think I need to see them in person to really understand.

Thanks for such an interesting thread :D

[spindr]

I'm still curious about shiners... I think I need to see them in person to really understand.

There are clips at www.salsamafia.com -- try the "Oh no! Pat shining - #XXX" clips.

SpinDr.

[Trish]

Sorry, going slightly off thread here for a sec, but one thing that I loved doing in Salsa was the Rueda (where groups of four or more couple dance in a circle with the 'lead male' being a caller, calling out the moves, so that everyone dances together, frequently swapping partners). If this could be incorporated into Ceroc/MJ I think it would be great fun, esp at party nights etc.

I've been in dances where the guys swap their partners over and back again, and I've been involved in dances wit one leader and more than one follower, and vice versa, but I've never seen anything like the Rueda at a MJ night.

Do you think it would be possible?

Do you think it could be taught?

S. x

I've done similar things to this at Ceroc Central freestyles, and also when our regular Ceroc teacher left and had a bit of a party night. She taught it in a big circle, and demonstrated in a line with three guys and two girls if I remember rightly, so the girls could move from one guy to the next, and the "spare" guy demoing moved to where he was needed (from the back of the line to the front) to keep the flow going if you see what I mean. It was really good fun, and everyone caught on to it very well, but I can't see it happening outside a fun class, unless a group of friends just decided to do it.

I think one of the best things about MJ is it's spontaneity, and for me, if we started doing things like this circle dancing, or shines or whatever that would be too much like a set routine - and if I wanted that I'd be at an aerobics class, not Ceroc. So, personally, in some ways, I don't really like the idea, but I can see that other people might. However, I do quite like doing footwork things, so I might possibly be wrong about the Shines, I guess it depends on how long they go on for, and not having done them/seen them, I don't know.

I also find (although this may well be me, I've never known anyone else comment on it!), that although if I'm inspired by the music I can do something fairly interesting in a break (wiggling or whatever), I can't do it "on demand" as it were. If some bloke suggests it when the music is just bulk standard boom, boom, boom stuff I just hate it! I think the other thing that helps with this is a nice dark blues room! :clap: . There were some great wiggling etc tips in the ladies' styling class at Camber!

[Lynn]

I think one of the best things about MJ is it's spontaneity, and for me, if we started doing things like this circle dancing, or shines or whatever that would be too much like a set routine - and if I wanted that I'd be at an aerobics class, not Ceroc. AFAIK Rueda is still a lead and follow dance, not a set routine, its just that there is one lead for the whole group and they need to watch the lead who 'signals' the next move. I could be wrong, I haven't done much La Rueda but that was the impression I got.

[Andreas]

AFAIK Rueda is still a lead and follow dance, not a set routine, its just that there is one lead for the whole group and they need to watch the lead who 'signals' the next move. I could be wrong, I haven't done much La Rueda but that was the impression I got.

Comparing Rueda to Ceroc or vice versa doesn't quite work. Yes, in Rueda the moves are called randomly but creativity is the sole job of the caller. It looks good because everybody in the circle is doing the same: not trying to be creative. MJ derives its attraction from individuality, being a result of its relative simplicity.

[Andreas]

It's the only cool group dance I've ever seen, and I don't see why "CircleRoc" couldn't work in MJ. In fact, it may be easier to adapt rueda to MJ, than to introduce shines into MJ - people are used to following directions in MJ...

Rueda looks just as cool with 2 guys and 2 girls, the swapping between partners just looks like magic if you don't know how it works.


It is actually reasonably complex to try and do MJ in a circle like rueda. The lack of a general basic step means you have to invent one. Sure, you could use Wurlitzer, which sort of resemble the rueda basic. In Hamilton, NZ, they tried to have dancers perform random moves and change on command. It works but doesn't look nice or is worth the effort ... messy. Most of the called moves would have to be combinations of two simple MJ moves because you need to cover some distance when changing partners. I used to spend some time thinking about it but it is a steep learning curve for all involved and experience indicates that not many people would stick with it.

[David Bailey]

It is actually reasonably complex to try and do MJ in a circle like rueda. The lack of a general basic step means you have to invent one.
Arm jive? Hell, maybe even first move? Or am I missing the point? (quite possible, I'm just demob happy from a two-day course :blush: )


I used to spend some time thinking about it but it is a steep learning curve for all involved and experience indicates that not many people would stick with it.
I agree; it's a quite small set of people who could do it and who'd be interested in doing it. It's fine for a weekender, but I can't see it appealing to a normal class on a regular basis. It's a niche dance even in salsa; it'd take a massive marketing push to sell it in MJ.

I also agree about the creativity point - although even in Rueda there's a little room for self-expression within the context of specific moves. But yes, generally may not appeal to the average MJ-er.

But we can dream - I still think it'd look cool... And I still think it'd be easier to teach than formal shines!

[jockey]

"Shines" are fun. I like to do unassisted spins and sometimes some retro disco stuff from the Michael Jackson locker. I would say they go down either really well oor like a lead balloon. I wasnt aware though that there was a should or shouldn"t issue here....
When I was a beginner and was invited to go to a freestyle night by a friend after one class (some friend..!) (i.e., one lesson only..) I did a shine and it lasted pretty near the whole evening as I loved the music and HAD to dance but didnt know any moves..