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Gadget
23rd-May-2005, 11:28 PM
There is a thread just now on the Ceroc Austrailia forum about advice for competition dancing - it's all about performance arts and skills rather than dancing: Project to the audience, what looks good, lines, orientation, connecting with the audience... all about delivery to an external audience.

Is that what competitons are about? A performance? You've got to be seen to be dancing well and engaging not only your partner, but everyone who's around watching.

OK, I admit that some 'acting' and dramatisims make for some great dancing, but they are to create a bubble to contain you and your partner that the audience can satisfy their voyeuristic intension. When you 'invite' the audience into this bubble, are you not then bursting this bubble and taking away from the connection between you and your partner?

David Bailey
24th-May-2005, 07:36 AM
Excellent, I was thinking we haven't had a discussion on competitions for a while :innocent:


Is that what competitons are about? A performance?
Yep.

Hmmm, not much of a discussion there.... :sad: OK; competitive MJ dancing and club MJ dancing are, it seems to me, very different beasts.

In comp MJ, you're practising intensely with the same partner, getting used to working with them, understanding and working with their strengths and weaknesses, tailoring your dancing to that person, and devising moves and styles specifically for that person, and also specifically to look good (crowd-pleasers).

In club MJ, you're dancing with as many different people as you can, and you're trying to create as good a connection as you can with each person, altering your dance style every time to the changing requirements of each partner and each dance. You aren't so concerned about the "visuals" as about the "feel" of the dance; you're pleasing yourself and your partner, rather than playing to the crowd (well, mostly :) ).

My 2p's worth....

ads
24th-May-2005, 07:37 AM
There is a thread just now on the Ceroc Austrailia forum
Ceroc Australia is actually its competitor it is the Ceroc and Modern Jive Forum and I think that the thread has some very good points.

ducasi
24th-May-2005, 07:48 AM
... competitive MJ dancing and club MJ dancing are, it seems to me, very different beasts.

{snip} I agree, but isn't DWAS/Lucky Dip somewhere in-between?

If it isn't, it should be. (I've never been to a competition, so I don't know.)

There has to be some category I'd have even a remote chance in, no? Please? :flower:

David Bailey
24th-May-2005, 08:16 AM
I agree, but isn't DWAS/Lucky Dip somewhere in-between?
Good point (darn it, I hate those).

DWAS comps are, to me, a good example of MJ ethos, and a good test of how well you can put "club" dancing techniques into practice.

They're still visual or display-oriented, and the pot-luck element does mean that the winners are usually not the best pair of dancers, but the ones who happened to click on that occasion. But again, that's like normal MJ club dancing.

The only 2 comps I've ever entered have been DWAS-type, I enjoyed them both. But I'd never (OK, probably never) go for a traditional competition.

Purple Sparkler
24th-May-2005, 10:35 AM
Good point (darn it, I hate those).

DWAS comps are, to me, a good example of MJ ethos, and a good test of how well you can put "club" dancing techniques into practice.

They're still visual or display-oriented, and the pot-luck element does mean that the winners are usually not the best pair of dancers, but the ones who happened to click on that occasion. But again, that's like normal MJ club dancing.

The only 2 comps I've ever entered have been DWAS-type, I enjoyed them both. But I'd never (OK, probably never) go for a traditional competition.

Having done the Lucky Dip at the Champs, I have to say David's right about how you win them. I really didn't click with the partner I got at all (serves me right for going in for something involving LUCK). And then he came up to me at a Hammersmith Freestyle Night and said "well, you've got plenty to work on now. I got into the semi finals of my other categories". I could have slapped him. There were plenty of dancers in the Lucky Dip who I would have been able to kick ass with, had I been paired with them.

And if I can find a partner I DO click with who's willing to try, I'm definitely considering going in for the Intermediate trophy next year. AND the Lucky Dip. And I'll probably go in for the competition at the Ashtons Beach Party next Monday, too. What can I say? I'm a glutton for punishment- making a complete idiot of myself in front of 500 people just WASN'T ENOUGH for me.

And re actual dancing- it depends on the category. In the Intermediate and Advanced competitions, the best dancers I saw (the ones I picked out, rightly, as medal winners) were all about the musicality, they were on the beat, had a smooth style, and were working well together.

In the showcase, Open, and double-trouble, (and to an extent the Team Cabaret), there was more of a sense of all of the above plus showmanship- playing up to the judges, putting in moves that were fun to watch (the Clowns in double trouble being a case in point), generally raising your game with some bells and whistles (in this case, CF Black Magic, the team that won the cabaret).

MartinHarper
24th-May-2005, 10:46 AM
I'm guessing Gadget is talking about CMJ's Connecting with the audience (http://www.ceroc.com.au/forum/showthread.php?t=1347) thread, amongst others.

Performance dancing is still dancing, so "performance or dancing?" doesn't make much sense...

RogerR
24th-May-2005, 10:54 AM
IN a comp The dancing skills are assumed and the performance skills are what counts for points.

Andreas
24th-May-2005, 11:14 AM
Well, if I see aerials in a DWAS (Lucky Dip) competition the idea of the event has been defeated for me. Aerials are not 'club' and unless you know your partner and can assume that certain signals to air steps are being understood you simply can't do them.

As to the actual topic of the thread, comps are more about performing than dancing. That is exactly why you see so little 'dancing' at comps. My opinion is that people take the wrong approach. They try to dance for audience and judges, which ends up in performing rather than dancing. In most cases competition couples have got hardly anything going on between each others in comps, they are not dancing with each other but for and also with a third party, judges and/or audience. A partner dance should be all about the other person. If that is accomplished then the judges and the audience will love you because you involve them in your story. Unfortunately this happens bugger all.

I would not put this lack of 'chemistry' down to comps only, even on a social dance floor you don't see a lot of it. In many cases one of the partnership feels 'forced' to dance with the other person, be it out of politeness or whatever reason. Rarely only will you see on a social dance floor a couple (strangers or not) that have 'something going on'. And it will make all the difference to those who watch, no matter if funky, cheeky or sexy. With chemistry lacking on a social dance floor the situation is naturally aggrevated at comps because focus changes to performance over just dancing.

The difference between performing and dancing, as I see it, is in the connection of the two dancers. If the other person is not the most important thing AFTER MUSIC, then it becomes a performance. A dance is involving the mind of watchers, a performance is only involving the eye.

:flower:

RogerR
24th-May-2005, 11:36 AM
There's always a connection tween partners, Just sometimes it goes past the dancing, Several performing partners are not romantically attatched, some are otherwise attatched. I want to a ballroom comp once and some of the men were so camp as to not want a female partner except for dancing.

When you get to serious comp work it is WORK and you have to find the partner that works well with you to turn a personal dance skill into a well presented performance.

DWAS is a ploy by organisers to try to bring people into comp the easy way and filling the floor with beginners after the pro competitors have just set a standart few even aspire to.

Andreas
24th-May-2005, 12:09 PM
There's always a connection tween partners, Just sometimes it goes past the dancing, Several performing partners are not romantically attatched, some are otherwise attatched. I want to a ballroom comp once and some of the men were so camp as to not want a female partner except for dancing.


This has got nothing to do with a romantic connection in real life or not. You either can act it out or you can't, that is where you have to divide dancers. A dance is a dance, it starts and ends on the dance floor. If a love song is played then for those 3 minutes the only person you love is the person you dance with. THAT is what the audience sees, flash moves or not.

I have seen many dances full of aerials and the first time I was impressed. Second time I saw it I was bored, third time very bored, fourth time I could not wait for it to finish. You can't keep the attention of an audience by impressing them unless you can top your performance each and every time you enter the dance floor. Otherwise people will quickly get bored with what you do. If you can tell a story and really involve people in your 'temporary relationship' then people will look at you and keep looking because they want to know what is next. Next time you come onto the floor to a different piece of music you tell a different story because the setting has changed. Again, people will follow you because you tell somehting completely different, yet the audience can associate with you. Third time is a different song again and again you will naturally change your story.

Not sure if it isn't obvious from that blurb but what I am saying is that you can't retain the attention of the audience unless you have 'something going on' or you keep topping your own show. That is exactly why competitions are often rather boring to watch, why people often show up for semis and finals but not heats: They don't want to see the same stuff strutted again and again and again. Would the general focus more be on interpretation of music and connection to the partner, I hazard the guess, people may actually be more entertained because they can 'read' what the competitors do.

I must have too much time :rofl:

David Bailey
24th-May-2005, 12:14 PM
Having done the Lucky Dip at the Champs, I have to say David's right about how you win them. I really didn't click with the partner I got at all (serves me right for going in for something involving LUCK). And then he came up to me at a Hammersmith Freestyle Night and said "well, you've got plenty to work on now. I got into the semi finals of my other categories". I could have slapped him. There were plenty of dancers in the Lucky Dip who I would have been able to kick ass with, had I been paired with them.
:eek: What a scumbucket. :hug:

Of my 2 DWAS, I did well in one, because I lucked out and got matched with a superb partner, with whom I clicked. I did poorly in the other, because I got matched with a novice, with whom it was more difficult to click. But I certainly would never have said anything like that to her - it's the luck of the draw - and we're quite good friends now through that comp.

As for Mr Scumbucket, just trust in Darwinian selection - it's likely he won't breed.

bigdjiver
24th-May-2005, 02:46 PM
As for Mr Scumbucket, just trust in Darwinian selection - it's likely he won't breed.So, how did all the Scumbuckets get here?

David Bailey
24th-May-2005, 03:04 PM
So, how did all the Scumbuckets get here?
Mutation, cosmic rays, atomic bomb tests - the usual.

Purple Sparkler
24th-May-2005, 03:15 PM
Mutation, cosmic rays, atomic bomb tests - the usual.

"Scumbuckets are Born, not Made: Discuss"

I think they get HERE through that pesky 'Ceroc being open to anyone' thing.

David Bailey
24th-May-2005, 03:35 PM
Not sure if it isn't obvious from that blurb but what I am saying is that you can't retain the attention of the audience unless you have 'something going on' or you keep topping your own show.
Excellent points, well-made. What are you, a nutter or something? :grin:

But seriously, :clap: :clap: and more :clap:

Tessalicious
24th-May-2005, 03:42 PM
"Scumbuckets are Born, not Made: Discuss"

I think they get HERE through that pesky 'Ceroc being open to anyone' thing.

I see a 'Do you dance with Scumbuckets' thread and poll coming round the corner... I look forward to see who defends the scumbuckets in that one :whistle:

Purple Sparkler
24th-May-2005, 03:57 PM
I see a 'Do you dance with Scumbuckets' thread and poll coming round the corner... I look forward to see who defends the scumbuckets in that one :whistle:

I don't think anybody does- because you don't KNOW they're scumbuckets until you talk to them. And then you try and avoid them, because they're scumbuckets.

David Bailey
24th-May-2005, 04:00 PM
I see a 'Do you dance with Scumbuckets' thread and poll coming round the corner... I look forward to see who defends the scumbuckets in that one :whistle:
:rofl: :rofl:
Or possibly "Do you dance with f*t or o*d scumbuckets"?

El Salsero Gringo
24th-May-2005, 04:02 PM
I look forward to see who defends the scumbuckets in that one :whistle:I'm up for it. (I like taking on baying mobs with pitchforks.)

Gadget
24th-May-2005, 09:43 PM
Performance dancing is still dancing, so "performance or dancing?" doesn't make much sense...As the posts above have said, "Dancing" is about the connection with your partner. "Performance" is about the connection with the audience.
Why do competitions put so much emphisis on the connection with the audience and so little on the connection with your partner? I thought that MJ was all about dancing with your partner to the music - not dancing with your partner to the audience. If I'm right, then wouldn't people's energys be better spent in working on that connection rather than the projection? Or is the "projection to your audience" a quick and easy solution to gloss over any failings in the connection?

I also think that DWAS is probably the best way to compete showing skill against skill. I'm not sure that the one 'fixed' random partner is the best way, but that's another thread.

MartinHarper
24th-May-2005, 11:53 PM
I'll happilly dance with "scum buckets" if the nature of their scumminess does not reduce my enjoyment of the dance. It's not like dancing with me is some great gift that I shall bestow only upon those worthy.


"Dancing" is about the connection with your partner. "Performance" is about the connection with the audience.

When the All Blacks do the haka, it's all about performance, and connection with the audience and the other team, but that doesn't stop it being dancing. I have no great love for fixed partner choreographed modern jive, for aesthetic reasons. It is still dancing. I guess I know what you're asking, but it's not (IMO, as ever) a good way to ask it.

On another note, good social dancing has elements of performance in it. The emphasis on performance is reduced, and varies between couples. All the same ideas about lines and such apply - these things are not weird esoterics of interest only to fixed partner competition dancers.

Andreas
25th-May-2005, 01:15 AM
What are you, a nutter or something? :grin:

:blush: This has to be one of the nicest compliments I have ever heard! :blush: What you doing tonight, sugar? :rofl: :rofl:

David Bailey
25th-May-2005, 09:39 AM
:blush: This has to be one of the nicest compliments I have ever heard!
Yeah? So where's my rep then, huh? :tears:

Andreas
25th-May-2005, 09:49 AM
Yeah? So where's my rep then, huh? :tears:

Sorry, you were the last one to receive rep from me, the board rules do not cater for outragous generosity :yum: :rofl:

David Bailey
25th-May-2005, 10:53 AM
For possbly the first time ever, I find myself in agreement with all of Gadget's points :confused:

Why do competitions put so much emphisis on the connection with the audience and so little on the connection with your partner? I thought that MJ was all about dancing with your partner to the music - not dancing with your partner to the audience. If I'm right, then wouldn't people's energys be better spent in working on that connection rather than the projection? Or is the "projection to your audience" a quick and easy solution to gloss over any failings in the connection?
Because "projection" is visible, whereas a lot of "connection" is tactile, and can only be clearly sensed by the couple themselves. (Good terms, by the way)

Whilst "connection" will presumably translate into a high-quality dance experience, it's more subtle than flashy visual moves, and won't be so obvious to an observer. Obviously, having both connection and projection is good for competition dancing, but some couples may well feel that projection is more important.

I'd hope that a MJ judge would focus on the connection, but I dunno. I doubt that anyone could win a competition by just doing the first move variations, no matter how well they were done. Although I'd love to see someone try... :whistle:


I also think that DWAS is probably the best way to compete showing skill against skill. I'm not sure that the one 'fixed' random partner is the best way, but that's another thread.
:yeah:

I think it's a Roger's point ("DWAS is a ploy by organisers to try to bring people into comp the easy way and filling the floor with beginners after the pro competitors have just set a standart few even aspire to.") may have some truth in it, but I also think DWAS competitions more accurately reflect the "DWAS ethos" of MJ in general.

Andreas
25th-May-2005, 11:05 AM
but I also think DWAS competitions more accurately reflect the "DWAS ethos" of MJ in general.

Which is probably why it has been scrapped off the list or the upcoming NZ champs. :whistle: :eek:

David Bailey
25th-May-2005, 11:19 AM
Which is probably why it has been scrapped off the list or the upcoming NZ champs. :whistle: :eek:
Yes, and...? Don't get funny with me, you ex-pat, I'm still owed some rep from you.

Seriously, so what? That could be a commercial decision, it could be taken because competition dancing is so different from proper club dancing (guess which one I prefer :) ), or any other reason.

I'd love to see a "rolling SWAS" competition - dancing with several strangers, and getting marks each time. That'd remove some of the element of chance of pairing up, and it'd test adaptation skills even more. I doubt it'll happen, too much hassle to organise. But if it did, I'd enter (and I never thought I'd say that :eek: ).

Simon r
25th-May-2005, 11:51 AM
Yes, and...? Don't get funny with me, you ex-pat, I'm still owed some rep from you.

Seriously, so what? That could be a commercial decision, it could be taken because competition dancing is so different from proper club dancing (guess which one I prefer :) ), or any other reason.

I'd love to see a "rolling SWAS" competition - dancing with several strangers, and getting marks each time. That'd remove some of the element of chance of pairing up, and it'd test adaptation skills even more. I doubt it'll happen, too much hassle to organise. But if it did, I'd enter (and I never thought I'd say that :eek: ).

Wow so much to say on competitions with ( how much experience have you had )
In America they already run a rolling DWAS comp and it works very well
Why is comp so diffrent from freestyle dancing i hardly change at all other than direct my finish in one direction so with your vast knowledge please explain how we differ from freestyle to comp because i just cant see it...

Andreas
25th-May-2005, 12:08 PM
Yes, and...? Don't get funny with me, you ex-pat, I'm still owed some rep from you.

Seriously, so what? That could be a commercial decision, it could be taken because competition dancing is so different from proper club dancing (guess which one I prefer :) ), or any other reason.

I'd love to see a "rolling SWAS" competition - dancing with several strangers, and getting marks each time. That'd remove some of the element of chance of pairing up, and it'd test adaptation skills even more. I doubt it'll happen, too much hassle to organise. But if it did, I'd enter (and I never thought I'd say that :eek: ).

:yum: :devil: :eek: :rolleyes: :innocent: :D

Their reasoning translates to 'it has not the level and class people want to see'. In a way they are right, DWAS is not necessarily for the audience and it will always remain a lucky dip. Add to it that only a few people really 'dance with a stranger'. And since it is hugely popular it always takes ages to sieve through the field. So in a way I can understand why they scrapped it. However, just as you mentioned: it represents the idea behind MJ. And for that reason it is pretty sad.

The 'rolling DWAS' is already practiced in OZ. Guys and girls are being judged seperately and have to change partner every 30 seconds. It works well but is quite a job for the judges.

Yliander
25th-May-2005, 12:29 PM
I'd love to see a "rolling SWAS" competition - dancing with several strangers, and getting marks each time. That'd remove some of the element of chance of pairing up, and it'd test adaptation skills even more. I doubt it'll happen, too much hassle to organise. This is the format that DWAS takes here - you dance with several different people in each heat/semi/final

not overly difficult to organise

we also have it at different levels - beg, intermediate & advanced

bigdjiver
25th-May-2005, 12:35 PM
...Their reasoning translates to 'it has not the level and class people want to see'... I have no experience of their DWAS. However if I were making a commercial for MJ I would want to use some clips from UK DWAS comps. From my limited experience Rena's winning performance from 98 being first on the list . The Ceroc winners (2001?) being second. They encapsulated, for me, what MJ is mostly about, sheer joy.

Sheepman
25th-May-2005, 12:42 PM
Because "projection" is visible, whereas a lot of "connection" is tactile, and can only be clearly sensed by the couple themselves. (Good terms, by the way) I think evidence of this can be seen in SDF too, where the judges have complained often that "James isn't leading Claire." Even these experts don't seem to be able to see that "connection." This is the same James that has been lauded by his teacher as a fantastic leader, and the same James that recently won a DWAS at Camber.



I'd love to see a "rolling DWAS" competition - dancing with several strangers, and getting marks each time. That'd remove some of the element of chance of pairing up, and it'd test adaptation skills even more. I doubt it'll happen, too much hassle to organise. This format was also used at Hipster's a while back.

Greg

David Bailey
25th-May-2005, 02:29 PM
This format was also used at Hipster's a while back.
Darn, and I was going to patent that one. Well, good to know I'm not totally dumb, despite:

Wow so much to say on competitions with ( how much experience have you had )
Almost none - I never let experience or facts get in the way of my ranting, surely you've got that by now?

I'm just a mouthy git, basically.