Ladies' sabotage advice

[jivecat]

A couple of guys I've danced with recently are keen on that corny old move where the lady has to put her hands on the man's chest and push him away. I hoped it had gone out of fashion. I always forget what I'm supposed to do so there's this dreadful pause while I look at the guy, thinking "Why's he stopped leading?" and he presumably thinks "This one's slow on the uptake." If I'm being really dense, sometimes he even points coyly to his chest, with a complacent smirk upon his face. (Sorry guys, but I am positive no forumite would behave in such a manner. :innocent: )

The trouble is, I don't usually want to put my hands anywhere near anyone's scrawny chest, especially if there's the slightest risk or suspicion that my hands are going to end up even remotely near his nipples, ach. But I'm put in a position where I can't very well refuse to do so, without appearing wilful and uncooperative - which of course I am, but would prefer to at least appear to be playing the game on the dance floor.

So, does anyone know a neat sabotage thingy evasive trick I can train myself to do when the atrophied pectorals/clammy digits interface looms imminent? (Er, not too technical please, if poss.)

[Lou]

So, does anyone know a neat sabotage thingy evasive trick I can train myself to do when the atrophied pectorals/clammy digits interface looms imminent? (Er, not too technical please, if poss.)
Yeah - knee him in the groin. That should stop him trying any corny moves again. :D

[jivecat]

Yeah - knee him in the groin. That should stop him trying any corny moves again. :D

Assuming I could coordinate kneeing him in the groin whilst placing my hands on his chest, even while sober, do you think that this would cause an interruption to the smooth flow of the dance?

[Rebecca]

I thought i was the only one who HATED that 'move'. Not sure what it is about it. You could always try preparing yourself for a twist turn as he's approaching the second 'in & out' and if he lets go of your hands off u spin lady!! He'll be dumbstruck and perhaps slightly nervous and you won't have to look at him whilst he tells you off for not playing. He'll also grab your hands naturally after the spin and away you dance :clap:

No lifting the arms though - he'll be close in and you might not want to give him a black eye - trust me it happens (oops)

[Gadget]

You're not being given a lead - do anything you want...
move them up instead of down?
keep moving forward untill your elbows are in contact with him, then use this additional leverage to shove him backwards?
grab his t-shirt and back away with him in tow?
take your hands away, look at them in disgust and wipe them on your trousers?

I confess that I sometimes use this move - but seldom actually perform it: I lead as if this is the move, but change it into something else... basically so I can smile at the look of releif on my partner's face. :D :innocent:

[El Salsero Gringo]

A couple of guys I've danced with recently are keen on that corny old move where the lady has to put her hands on the man's chest and push him away. I hoped it had gone out of fashion. I always forget what I'm supposed to do so there's this dreadful pause while I look at the guy, thinking "Why's he stopped leading?" and he presumably thinks "This one's slow on the uptake." If I'm being really dense, sometimes he even points coyly to his chest, with a complacent smirk upon his face. (Sorry guys, but I am positive no forumite would behave in such a manner. :innocent: )

The trouble is, I don't usually want to put my hands anywhere near anyone's scrawny chest, especially if there's the slightest risk or suspicion that my hands are going to end up even remotely near his nipples, ach. But I'm put in a position where I can't very well refuse to do so, without appearing wilful and uncooperative - which of course I am, but would prefer to at least appear to be playing the game on the dance floor.

So, does anyone know a neat sabotage thingy evasive trick I can train myself to do when the atrophied pectorals/clammy digits interface looms imminent? (Er, not too technical please, if poss.)I do that move reasonably often. (I don't think I've ever smirked though.)

If you don't want to bounce off the man's chest, the alternative is simply to bounce off his shoulders instead. That shouldn't cause offence, and unless he has a very unusual physiology should keep your hands well away from his nipples.

And I don't think there's any call for a knee in the groin, thank you very much.

[MartinHarper]

I do this move. :)

Like Gadget, I was always taught that if the man stops leading, the woman is within her rights to do whatever the heck she likes. If the only thing she can think of is grabbing his chest hair, that's not really the guy's fault.


So, does anyone know a neat sabotage thingy evasive trick I can train myself to do when the atrophied pectorals/clammy digits interface looms imminent?

As a lead, there's no realistic way I can force my partner to put her hands on my chest (and believe me, I've tried). So, I'm giving a physical lead for my partner to move forwards (ie: I pull on her hands), followed by a visual lead to stop (ie: I don't get out of the way). Once I've let go of my partner's hands, her arms both become "spare arms", and I have no control over how she chooses to style them.

As a bare "passive" minimum: follow the lead, as given, and ignore the signal. Walk towards him, stop before you run him over, and keep your hands in the government approved "thunderbirds" pose until he picks one of them up to start leading again.
A more "active" option: move towards him, stop, and do that sassy hands-on-hips thing girls do when they want to be impatient and sexy at the same time. If he's not offered a hand after a couple of beats, he's clearly happy for you to "play", so take advantage.
Alternatively, you could hijack: drop down as you come in, and place your hands on his hips instead of his chest. Fro there, lead him into a few swivels, hip spin, return, etc.

[Danielle]

I thought i was the only one who HATED that 'move'. Not sure what it is about it. You could always try preparing yourself for a twist turn as he's approaching the second 'in & out' and if he lets go of your hands off u spin lady!! He'll be dumbstruck and perhaps slightly nervous and you won't have to look at him whilst he tells you off for not playing. He'll also grab your hands naturally after the spin and away you dance :clap:

No lifting the arms though - he'll be close in and you might not want to give him a black eye - trust me it happens (oops)


You're not the only one - its one of my most hated moves as well (that and the side to side :eek: ) I find if you just stand there and just pretend to look confused he doesn't try it again :wink: (have tried the spinning out method but the guy in question just thought I couldn't follow his lead and kept trying it again and again :mad: )

[El Salsero Gringo]

...

Look, if you ladies don't like a move, why not just say "I don't like that move?" It strikes me as extremely condescending as well as just pointless to try to be clever and dodge your way out of it, then bitch about it on public forums about how the man doesn't "get the message".

When you dance, ladies, you ask for a clear lead from us. But this partner-dance-as-communication thing works both ways, you know - if you don't like something, just say so.

[Simon r]

...

Look, if you ladies don't like a move, why not just say "I don't like that move?" It strikes me as extremely condescending as well as just pointless to try to be clever and dodge your way out of it, then bitch about it on public forums about how the man doesn't "get the message".

When you dance, ladies, you ask for a clear lead from us. But this partner-dance-as-communication thing works both ways, you know - if you don't like something, just say so.

hmmm the cool exterior cracks..... how are these comments any diffrent from some of your own in recent threads. :whistle:

[Andreas]

So, does anyone know a neat sabotage thingy evasive trick I can train myself to do when the atrophied pectorals/clammy digits interface looms imminent? (Er, not too technical please, if poss.)

Why not just run your finger tip (finger nail more precisely) down his shirt w/o enough pressure to really touch him. Once you reach the gut stab him 'gently' in the side with your finger. If he enjoys that, next time you repeat the action but instead of stabbing him you step forwards onto his toes.

There are plenty of subtle moves to can bring across that you are not happy with the move :wink:

[Lou]

Why not just run your finger tip (finger nail more precisely) down his shirt w/o enough pressure to really touch him. Once you reach the gut stab him 'gently' in the side with your finger. If he enjoys that, next time you repeat the action but instead of stabbing him you step forwards onto his toes.
:rofl: That's even better than mine.

Cheer up, ESG. :flower:

[Gadget]

As a lead, there's no realistic way I can force my partner to put her hands on my chest (and believe me, I've tried). not strictly true :devil: ... But I'm not sure it's a good idea to post publicly with all these folk wanting to stab and maim leads who do it :what::tears:

[El Salsero Gringo]

hmmm the cool exterior cracks..... how are these comments any diffrent from some of your own in recent threads. :whistle:Which recent threads do you have in mind?

[DianaS]

A couple of guys I've danced with recently are keen on that corny old move where the lady has to put her hands on the man's chest and push him away. I hoped it had gone out of fashion. I always forget what I'm supposed to do so there's this dreadful pause while I look at the guy, thinking "Why's he stopped leading?" and he presumably thinks "This one's slow on the uptake." If I'm being really dense, sometimes he even points coyly to his chest, with a complacent smirk upon his face. (Sorry guys, but I am positive no forumite would behave in such a manner. :innocent: )

The trouble is, I don't usually want to put my hands anywhere near anyone's scrawny chest, especially if there's the slightest risk or suspicion that my hands are going to end up even remotely near his nipples, ach. But I'm put in a position where I can't very well refuse to do so, without appearing wilful and uncooperative - which of course I am, but would prefer to at least appear to be playing the game on the dance floor.

So, does anyone know a neat sabotage thingy evasive trick I can train myself to do when the atrophied pectorals/clammy digits interface looms imminent? (Er, not too technical please, if poss.)

Hmm JC,
take a step back and offer your spare hand with a smile.
It's fair enough

At times I just explain that I don't like or do that move (I hate the one where your supposed to slide your bottom up their legs and substitute it with a cross over walk and if they try and explain what they think I should be doing I just explain that I'd rather not)

[David Bailey]

When you dance, ladies, you ask for a clear lead from us. But this partner-dance-as-communication thing works both ways, you know - if you don't like something, just say so.
Hey, that sounds like me talking :confused: :grin:

It's a bit of a tricky one - it's certainly a legit move, and I think it can look pretty good in the right circumstances. I don't do it often, maybe only a couple of times a year, but sometimes the dance flows such a way that it's nice to do.

Having said that, it may be a bit too personal for some followers, and like all potentially-dodgy moves, you have to be a bit sensitive about who you do it with. I suspect that ESG is sensitive in this way, and jivecat's partners may not be.

I also agree with Gadget and MartinHarper*, in that of course if you supply no lead, the lady should do her own thing and wait until you do supply a lead (or walk off...).

However, the chest-spin is led - there is a signal, it's not obvious, but if you know the move and your partner, it should be clear from the position and momentum. Basically, in-and-out, then let go of hand and, err, stick your chest out :)

So if the lady declines the lead, OK, but the lead should be there.

I guess one possible diplomatic exit for the follower is to just put your fingertip on the chest rather than full palm, and push yourself back. That avoids nasty pectoral contact - how's that sound?

My bottom line is - it's a move, it's not the most fashionable, but it's legit, and the follower should follow a clear lead, otherwise anarchy will ensue...


sometimes he even points coyly to his chest, with a complacent smirk upon his face. (Sorry guys, but I am positive no forumite would behave in such a manner. )
Errr... :blush:

That is, "No! Of course not!"


* In fact, basically, I agree with everyone. Isn't that nice? :innocent:

[Lory]

The trouble is, I don't usually want to put my hands anywhere near anyone's scrawny chest, especially if there's the slightest risk or suspicion that my hands are going to end up even remotely near his nipples, ach.

I know I'm weird but this move always brings a smile to my face, it's sooo cheesy and funny and I've found loads of ways to 'play' it....

Sweaty scrawny chest = very straight index finger poke

Sleazy letch = Thumbs only, with fingers spread wide in the NO WAY styley

Can't bare to touch them at all = put your hands together and do a genie in a bottle action, straight up. out and round and grab their hands on the way out

Nice body :drool: = Stop and take a couple of beats to enjoy ;) run fingers slowly down from collar bones, through to middle of chest, then flat hands on both pec's and push away with a :wink: !

And silly cheeky mates get their nipples pinched really hard! :D

[El Salsero Gringo]

And another thing: If it's OK for ladies to talk about sweaty scrawny chests and atrophied pecs, does that mean I should complain - supposing it bothered me - about having to touch lard-mountain hips or wizened twisted old fingers ("ach") while I dance? Our bodies are whatever they are.

[David Bailey]

And another thing: If it's OK for ladies to talk about sweaty scrawny chests and atrophied pecs, does that mean I should complain - supposing it bothered me - about having to touch lard-mountain hips or wizened twisted old fingers ("ach") while I dance? Our bodies are whatever they are.
:yeah:
As the possessor of a, ahem, non-perfect bod, I agree!

[Mary]

And another thing: If it's OK for ladies to talk about sweaty scrawny chests and atrophied pecs, does that mean I should complain - supposing it bothered me - about having to touch lard-mountain hips or wizened twisted old fingers ("ach") while I dance? Our bodies are whatever they are.

Blimey! Must be that time of the month. Pah, pre-menstrual men. :cool:

:D

M

[Mary]

Blimey! Must be that time of the month. Pah, pre-menstrual men. :cool:

:D

M


Even if he is right - cuts both ways. :wink:

M

[bigdjiver]

Since my chest does not rate as an erogenous zone at all, I had difficulty realising that so many ladies had an aversion for touching it. Alas, there is no way of telling them from the others without trying it. ("Do you mind touching my chest, darling?" :eek: )

Having first been taught this move, and seen some of the fun play options being practised by others, I adopted it with enthusiasm. I pulled a lady towards me, and saw the look of consternation on her face as she averted her hands at the last instant and crashed into me with her bosom instead.

I put that down as an eccentricity, until it happened again, with a different lady. That was when I first realised that ladies were quite willing to do certain moves in a class, but not in freestyle. I have reluctantly dropped the hands on chest from my repetoire, although I really would like to try some variations on it.

[jivecat]

Well, thank you, folks. Plenty of stuff to work on there.

I especially like the single finger suggestions :eek: , as there's absolutely no danger of stabbing anyone with MY fingernails, in fact more likely to cause a skin infection after lengthy bouts of manuring the allotment. My fingers are probably sufficiently wizened and bony to warrant a terminal shove into a bread oven, though. And I didn't complain that anyone was sweaty, that was my digits I was referring to.

Guilty as charged as regards the body-fascist, anti-male, bitchy tone. And that was after I'd edited out the worst bits.

MartinHarper - you think dropping down and grabbing his hips would be an improvement?? Please demo the "Thunderbirds" pose for me next time I see you.

Lory - I'll be watching very carefully next time I see you dance!

Gadget - you're a gent.

DavidJames - Thanks for agreeing with everyone, always a good strategy. I should add that if in a moment of aberration a gentleman forumite did perform this move it would, by definition, be carried out with total style & panache.

Seriously, I take the point about following what is led, and communication. But there is usually no convenient point in the dance where I can say " I don't like that move" - once it's led, it's led, and I have to respond appropriately or in some way that doesn't spoil the flow of the dance, which is why I asked for sabotage moves. And because I'd like to learn more ways of adding my own improvisations to the dance, anyway.

Also, although (apparently) I feel strongly enough about it to have written a sexist, flippant, offensive post about it to raise a cheap giggle amongst lady forumites, I wouldn't feel strongly enough about it to make an issue of it with individual dancers on the dance floor. I knew there must be more graceful and witty ways of evading the move, as outlined so well by Lory.

Right. I'm off now to practise sassy, impatient, sexy moves in front of a mirror.

[Purple Sparkler]

about having to touch lard-mountain hips

At least you're putting your hands on the hips. The number of partners who've gotten that wrong in classes...

Actually the worst experience of this kind for me was being put into a comb by a horribly sleazy guy and being told "you can't move unless you wiggle". This was 5 years ago, and only when I took up Ceroc again after a break of 4-odd years was I told that you can actually push them away (all the pushing away advice on this thread from female forumites is excellent- and I agree wholeheartedly with Lory on what to do if the guy's attractive).

I don't mind doing the pushing away, in fact I think it's more fun and a good way of messing about with friends. But I have been known to resist sleazy moves from sleazy guys, using my best Dizzy English Tourist face (I call it that because it's the same one I used on a Vatican security guard to get let through a cordon so I could go round the Sistine Chapel again) to give an impression that I don't know the move. Before I get complained at by the men, I should point out that I would tell them 'I don't like that move', but in my experience the ones who you feel uncomfortable doing a particular move with are the ones who would just smirk at you if you said that. Most of the guys I dance with, however, are gentlemen when it comes to things like this.

[David Bailey]

But there is usually no convenient point in the dance where I can say " I don't like that move" - once it's led, it's led, and I have to respond appropriately or in some way that doesn't spoil the flow of the dance, which is why I asked for sabotage moves. And because I'd like to learn more ways of adding my own improvisations to the dance, anyway.
It's a problem for a follower, especially with the more subtle "invitation to play" moves, or moves you just don't like. Such as:
- Drops / Leans
- Seducers / UCP
- Aerials
- Twisty moves (tunnel, backhander)
In comparison to some of those, the chest-push is fairly harmless, in that you as a follower can control what you do, and the worst that happens is you feel a bit silly.



Also, although (apparently) I feel strongly enough about it to have written a sexist, flippant, offensive post about it to raise a cheap giggle amongst lady forumites
Yes - good work, keep it up.



Right. I'm off now to practise sassy, impatient, sexy moves in front of a mirror.
Ditto.

[MartinHarper]

The follower should follow a clear lead, otherwise anarchy will ensue...

I'll agree with that. Still, the guy sticking his chest out and/or pointing to it is a signal for a particular piece of styling, not a lead, which gives it a different character in my mind.

thunderbirds are go (http://www.wackywardrobe.com/photos/cartoons/thunderbirds.jpg)

[Lory]

thunderbirds are go (http://www.wackywardrobe.com/photos/cartoons/thunderbirds.jpg)
:rofl: :rofl: I laughed out loud when I looked at that pic! Yep, understand perfectly about the thundebird hands now! :worthy:

[spindr]

as she averted her hands at the last instant and crashed into me with her bosom instead.
Well, there is a lead for that variation, but it's shrouded in secrecy :devil:

Personally, I think that the move's a little passé using uncrossed hands -- I think it's much more fun to lead for a single-handed move, or even from crossed hands -- as it makes it much more surprising :)

SpinDr.

[David Bailey]

Personally, I think that the move's a little passé using uncrossed hands -- I think it's much more fun to lead for a single-handed move, or even from crossed hands -- as it makes it much more surprising :)
Ah, I was thinking of the single-handed version myself - I forgot about the 2-handed version.

Yes, obviously two-handed uncrossed is passé, pah, these boring old farts, stuck in the 90's.... err.... :blush:

[Bex]

I know I'm weird but this move always brings a smile to my face, it's sooo cheesy and funny

Have to agree with Lory on this, personally I don't have a problem with it and it does make me laugh, I haven't known any guy to do this move seriously.

As for guys not being able to lead the move so the ladies hands end up on their chest :confused: , I have danced with loads of guys who do this and it would be very difficult to sabotage even if I wanted to :D Try dancing with Simon R he does a cool version where he storms right towards you - there's no getting out of that one even when you leg it backwards!! :waycool:

The worst move for me though is the Train :sick: I can't bear it - its so naff, as soon as the guy leads it and walks forward, I'm shuffling behind thinking please don't turn round and make me do a stupid walk :tears: thankfully this move is a lot easier to sabotage!! :clap:

[Jooles]

Oh Bex I sooooooooooo agree with you. I hate that move and feel so stupid doing it. didn't know it was called the train, but should have guessed. I think it's the only move I really dread doing. Not necessarily following him, but when he turns around and makes you do it. I'm cringing just thinking about it.

[Lory]

but when he turns around and makes you do it. I'm cringing just thinking about it.
I can do a very good Laurel and Hardy 'sand dance' when pushed! :wink: :D

[Jooles]

and does it put him off doing that move again? I might try it if it does?

[Purple Sparkler]

I can do a very good Laurel and Hardy 'sand dance' when pushed! :wink: :D


and does it put him off doing that move again? I might try it if it does?

Personally I'm hoping someone will try the move on her tonight so I can see the sand dance in action!

(And wasn't it Wilson, Kepple and Betty rather than Laurel and Hardy?)

[Bex]

I can do a very good Laurel and Hardy 'sand dance' when pushed! :wink: :D


Oh Lory, that's excellent, can just imagine it :rofl: :rofl: :hug:

[Mary]

I can do a very good Laurel and Hardy 'sand dance' when pushed! :wink: :D


Brilliant. I have to try this.

M

[Daisy Chain]

I can do a very good Laurel and Hardy 'sand dance' when pushed! :wink: :D


I find the Morecambe and Wise "Bring Me Sunshine" move always get a reaction in these embarrassing train situations :whistle: (and I wonder why I find it such a struggle getting dance partners...)

Daisy

(A Sunny Little Flower)

[MartinHarper]

The worst move for me though is the Train :sick: I can't bear it - its so naff, as soon as the guy leads it and walks forward, I'm shuffling behind thinking please don't turn round and make me do a stupid walk :tears:

For me, this is one of the great paradoxes of Ceroc. On the one hand, I hear women lament how the guys are so controlling, and they never have any "play time". On the other hand, I hear women lament moves such as the train, which are basically one big excuse to play. Something's not right there.

Last I checked, nobody can make you do a stupid walk.

[Clive Long]

And another thing: If it's OK for ladies to talk about sweaty scrawny chests and atrophied pecs, does that mean I should complain - supposing it bothered me - about having to touch lard-mountain hips or wizened twisted old fingers ("ach") while I dance? Our bodies are whatever they are.
I'm sure I'm going to get into trouble for this ....

Yes it is perfectly alright for women to comment, sometimes negatively, about aspects of a man's physique.

Men make those comments about women pretty much all the time.

I will be bolder and assert that most men form most of their, OK let's be generous, initial opinion of a woman based on her looks.

Or maybe it's only the guys I hang out with. So what's sauce for goose etc. etc. cliche.

And no, a guy should not comment on a lady's appearance unless he finds some aspect of it genuinely appealing.

However, being the gentleman he is (no really) ESG would never write or say something derogatory about a lady's appearance even if he thought it.

So there.


Clive

P.S. :yeah: to what Martin has written. You let go guys, ladies, it's your chance to play.

[El Salsero Gringo]

I'm sure I'm going to get into trouble for this ....No, but I'm going to argue with you.


Yes it is perfectly alright for women to comment, sometimes negatively, about aspects of a man's physique.Men make those comments about women pretty much all the time.Not the men I know. Point me, please, towards a post on the Forum where a man has complained about how dancing with a woman was unpleasant because she was fat, or had saggy breasts, or her jowls were hanging round her collar-bones?
I will be bolder and assert that most men form most of their, OK let's be generous, initial opinion of a woman based on her looks.There's a big difference between saying what sort of body you *do* like to dance with and complaining about the ones that you don't. And there's a big difference between making a private judgement about what you find unattractive and giving a slagging for it in a public place.

[Lory]

There's a big difference between saying what sort of body you *do* like to dance with and complaining about the ones that you don't. And there's a big difference between making a private judgement about what you find unattractive and giving a slagging for it in a public place.
There's also a bit difference between 'really' meaning it and having a little friendly, tongue in cheek banter too! :rolleyes:

[RogerR]

OK can anyone explain why the "Comb" frequently ends with the girl drawing her finger down my chest?

[Tessalicious]

OK can anyone explain why the "Comb" frequently ends with the girl drawing her finger down my chest?
I don't think I've ever heard a guy complaining about that one before... :whistle:

[RogerR]

Just follow it with a ladies comb and watch the face!!!

[Cruella]

OK can anyone explain why the "Comb" frequently ends with the girl drawing her finger down my chest?
I guess she's trying to remove the sweat from your neck which is now on her hand on to your T shirt!! :whistle:

[bigdjiver]

I think some people will feel distressed to see their physique and personal characteristics discussed in derogatory terms. They will feel uncomfortable to think that they are in an environment where they may be being viewed in that manner.

I try to share the dances around so that everybody gets a turn, trying not to assume why that is the case. I have danced with several rather large ladies who have turned out to have been dance trained, and put my interpretation skills to shame, and I now trust to respect my favourite tracks, and many others who have a tremendous sense of fun. As for beauty always attracting offers, I have seen what I consider the most beautiful and best dressed woman in the room being neglected. I still do not know for sure why that was, she was a good dancer. I can only speculate that she looked too good to touch.

[David Bailey]

The worst move for me though is the Train :sick: I can't bear it - its so naff, as soon as the guy leads it and walks forward, I'm shuffling behind thinking please don't turn round and make me do a stupid walk :tears: thankfully this move is a lot easier to sabotage!! :clap:For me, this is one of the great paradoxes of Ceroc. On the one hand, I hear women lament how the guys are so controlling, and they never have any "play time". On the other hand, I hear women lament moves such as the train, which are basically one big excuse to play. Something's not right there.

Last I checked, nobody can make you do a stupid walk.
:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

I do occasionally go into a train-like maneuver, it's a great chance to do shines / other footwork in a non-standard way. What the lady does at this point is up to her.

The train also provides a great position for all sorts of back-leading, duck-turns, reverse crucifix wiggling and other merriment. As with a lot of these moves, it's all in the way you do it, and what you do to exit it. Plus, "Me Lead, You Jane".

So, long live the train!

[Lou]

I think some people will feel distressed to see their physique and personal characteristics discussed in derogatory terms. They will feel uncomfortable to think that they are in an environment where they may be being viewed in that manner.
Uhuh. So that's why you're joining in?


I have danced with several rather large ladies who have turned out to have been dance trained, and put my interpretation skills to shame, and I now trust to respect my favourite tracks,
So - you're saying you were surprised to discover that larger ladies should be able to dance well and interpret music? Why is that? What do you think their feelings would be if they were to discover that you'd pigeonholed them so?

Oh - I hate Monday mornings.... :(

[David Bailey]

So - you're saying you were surprised to discover that larger ladies should be able to dance well and interpret music? Why is that?
Well, I have some sympathy with bjdiver...

As a wee chap, there are certain physical constraints on what I can and can't do, and I do have to consider height / weight ratios when dancing with a partner - physical force requirements, momentum, and so on.

To some extent, these constraints apply even when dancing with a superb dancer, who's very light on their feet - for example, I can't do very good seducer-type of moves with someone who's not as light or lighter than me. So as a generalisation, I can't do as much, as stylishly, with a taller / heavier partner, as I can with someone who's smaller and lighter. There's no aesthetics or judgementalism, just practicalities.

That doesn't mean I'm dogmatic, and I can think of lots of larger (in both senses!) ladies who are a delight to dance with. But if I didn't know the person, and hadn't seen them dance, then yes, size matters :innocent:

[Bex]

P.S. :yeah: to what Martin has written. You let go guys, ladies, it's your chance to play.


Yeah, but can we play to a better move than a Train?? Pleeeease!

[El Salsero Gringo]

So - you're saying you were surprised to discover that larger ladies should be able to dance well and interpret music? Why is that? What do you think their feelings would be if they were to discover that you'd pigeonholed them so?... and aren't the fat people lucky to have mates like us to tell them how they should feel?

[Lou]

But if I didn't know the person, and hadn't seen them dance, then yes, size matters :innocent:

:rofl: Will have to make a point of ensuring I only dance with big men, then. :whistle:

[Clive Long]

Uhuh. So that's why you're joining in?


So - you're saying you were surprised to discover that larger ladies should be able to dance well and interpret music? Why is that? What do you think their feelings would be if they were to discover that you'd pigeonholed them so?

Oh - I hate Monday mornings.... :(
Sorry, I think you are being unfair on bigdjiver.

My reading of what he wrote was he was challenging and disagreeing with the views and values of others - he had to point out those values to disagree with them, surely !!!

He was being honest about the variations in people but certainly not pigeonholing people.

Dang, you made me break my no-posts-today vow !!! :flower:

Clive

[Lou]

Sorry, I think you are being unfair on bigdjiver.

My reading of what he wrote was he was challenging and disagreeing with the views and values of others - he had to point out those values to disagree with them, surely !!
I don't think I was unfair.

I just think it's hugely ironic that he showed exactly the same prejudices that he was arguing against in his post. I think it also illustrates rather well ESG's original objections to Lory's post, in that society is used to men making comments about women's appearance - yet it's still somewhat less acceptable for women to comment on men.

The sooner we all come to realise that we're all people, faults & all, the better. :)

[Cruella]

Well, I have some sympathy with bjdiver...

As a wee chap, there are certain physical constraints on what I can and can't do, and I do have to consider height / weight ratios when dancing with a partner - physical force requirements, momentum, and so on.


That doesn't mean I'm dogmatic, and I can think of lots of larger (in both senses!) ladies who are a delight to dance with. But if I didn't know the person, and hadn't seen them dance, then yes, size matters :innocent:

So if you hadn't seen the 'larger' lady dance would you avoid asking her or would you ask and use moves you feel appropriate? The reason i ask is although i have been dancing for 8 years, in the last 2 i have lost 4 stone. This has made a huge difference to how many men ask me to dance. Can't help thinking that most (not all) men will be inclined to ask the slimmer younger or prettier lady to dance. Maybe not just for the attractiveness reasons but because she looks more like 'a dancer'. An example of this for me is when i was on a dance week with approx 200 dancers ( so wouldn't exactly get lost amongst the throng of people) a certain very well known teacher seemed to avoid dancing with me for the whole week. :sad: Two stone lighter this same teacher was extremely eager to dance with me and i gave him a bit of a shock when i explained that i was that same lady. :whistle:

[David Bailey]

So if you hadn't seen the 'larger' lady dance would you avoid asking her or would you ask and use moves you feel appropriate?
If I danced with her, as with all partners, I'd try to use an appropriate set of moves - that set would depend on a number of factors, including:
- My judgement of her ability
- My judgement of her style
- Other non-verbal cues / feedback
- and, yes, any physical constraints.

A classic example of this judgement with regards to physical constraints would be the striaghtjacket (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5241) move - it only makes sense as a move if I can get my titchy arms wrapped around the lady, otherwise it looks silly (or, sillier :) ). So I'd avoid that move in those cases, simply because I couldn't do it justice.



The reason i ask is although i have been dancing for 8 years, in the last 2 i have lost 4 stone. This has made a huge difference to how many men ask me to dance. Can't help thinking that most (not all) men will be inclined to ask the slimmer younger or prettier lady to dance. Maybe not just for the attractiveness reasons but because she looks more like 'a dancer'.
That's possible - I'd like to give us men a bit of credit, but we are shallow visually-oriented buggers most of the time. Comes with being a hunter, apparently :rofl:

I'd like to think most experienced dancers would make judgements mainly on how good a dance they expect to get. But in the end, you have to judge and choose your partners somehow, unless you just work your way along a line :eek: .

And, I'd like to point out, this conversation was started by a woman posting about a man's physique... :whistle:

P.S. Wish I could lose weight dancing - maybe the post-dance smoothie rush isn't helping there :sad:

[Gadget]

But if I didn't know the person, and hadn't seen them dance, then yes, size matters :innocent:
I used to think so, * but I've danced with much smaller ladies and can still do combs, duck-under moves and all the rest. What made me realise that it was probably not the move or the lady; more likely to be my movements and my lead, was seeing a 6ft4 lead (built like a rugby player) lead a 4ft2 lady smoothly into and out of tunnels.
If he could do it, why couldn't I?

Admittedly, I may subtly change my moves for 'broader' ladies: If they can't put their hands on opposing hips, my arms are only so long. But I change my moves depending many other factors as well - the lady's size/shape is only one of them.

Normally I have found larger ladies to be more aware of their balance and quite light on their feet. I have found a lot of diminutive ladies start out very heavy handed and taking larger steps. :shrug:



{* I'm tall, I've seldom danced with ladies taller than me: it may be different for smaller men with larger ladies - I would think some moves are almost imposable if the lady is so much taller than the man.}

[Sheepman]

in the last 2 i have lost 4 stone. This has made a huge difference to how many men ask me to dance. I had to do a double take when I read this, and think back several years to when we first danced.

This is one of those topics (and of course well off thread now) where it's probably safer to say nothing, someone is bound to get upset, but that doesn't always stop me. :eek: Yes, my first impression was probably that you were a large lady, my second impression (and far more important) was how much you enjoyed dancing, and how much fun you are to dance with. That impression is the one that is far more lasting. (And it adds to the impression of what an attraactive lady you are... :blush: )

In recent years I'm probably more guilty than many of dancing mostly with friends and acquiantances who I know are great fun to dance with, and not getting around enough dancing with strangers. Maybe that's a consequence of just knowing so many more dancers. (And perhaps due to lots of competition practicing.) When I do dance with strangers, there is still often that sheer delight in finding someone where it all seems to work straight from the start.

But let's face it, given a "free" choice when dancing with strangers, where we have no idea how they dance, surely anyone would prefer to dance with the person that they find most attractive? (And we've already done the "what first attracts you" stuff elsewhere.) But we're affected by issues of self esteem, and what is the right thing to do.

I think there is another question of self esteem, especially as women are so scary, :what: and that is, if I perceive someone as being "so far up themselves" because of the way they look, then I'm very unlikely to ask them to dance. If they have such a high opinion of themselves, then I am hardly likely to be able to measure up to their requirements! (I should point out that although this is something I've come across on the MJ scene, it has been many years since I've been aware of an instance.)
Of course there is a contradiction here, because in being a good dancer, part of that is about striking poses and saying "look at me." But I don't think that's the same as the look which says "you're not worthy to cast your eyes upon me."

OK, now I've probably managed to insult anyone who's not "average," time to take cover...

But as a small sop to getting back on thread, the one lady who does the most blatant hijacking of moves with me, can be fun to dance with. The only problem is, she struggles to stay with the beat and be light on her feet, being the largest lady I know on the MJ scene! (And a non forumite :whistle: .)

Greg

[bigdjiver]

...So - you're saying you were surprised to discover that larger ladies should be able to dance well and interpret music? Why is that? What do you think their feelings would be if they were to discover that you'd pigeonholed them so?...(I deliberately spend part of my evening looking for ladies have spent a lot of time sitting out. I am surprised if I find that any of them are actually very good dancers. That has included what I considered the most beautiful and best dressed lady in the room. She was pure delight. I have been surprised that I have only found one, out of thousands, that suffered from odour problems, and only a very few were yankers, or beyond my abilities to lead.
I had pre-conceptions of what a ballet dancer, or even an ex-ballet dancer, would look like. I am also well aware that I am probably not up to their standards as a lead. I try.

[bigdjiver]

I don't think I was unfair. I do.


I just think it's hugely ironic that he showed exactly the same prejudices that he was arguing against in his post. I think it also illustrates rather well ESG's original objections to Lory's post, in that society is used to men making comments about women's appearance - yet it's still somewhat less acceptable for women to comment on men.One of my heros of dance is a guy on the 98 champs video who is generously built but floats through the air with style, charm and a superb smile. I am never going to attain that standard.

What I was trying to say was that I am surprised if any lady that has spent most of the evening sitting out turns out to a very good dancer. I was hoping to persuade more guys to give everybody a chance.


The sooner we all come to realise that we're all people, faults & all, the better. :) :yeah: :flower:

[Lou]

I do.
Sorry! :flower:

Wish you'd been at the venue I was at on Friday night. It was the first time I'd been. And after sitting out a lot, I could've done with someone who makes a habit of asking ladies to dance... :)

[bigdjiver]

Sorry! :flower:

Wish you'd been at the venue I was at on Friday night. It was the first time I'd been. And after sitting out a lot, I could've done with someone who makes a habit of asking ladies to dance... :)So many women, so little time ...

Unfortunately I get enough dance where I live to travel far. :tears:

[jivecat]

And, I'd like to point out, this conversation was started by a woman posting about a man's physique... :whistle:



Oh dear yes, SORRY, folks. Why didn't I just think for a nanosecond before I hit that submit button?

I don't condone discrimination on the basis of physical features. But like a few other people I would have to admit to a bit of prejudice & body fascism, though it doesn't ever cause me to turn down dances. I've been turned down myself too many times to do that to people.

In practice, I can & do cheerfully overlook ANY variations from absolute masculine perfection as long as he leads well. (My original complaint was not just based on criticism of physical features but on quality of leading.) As Bigdjiver points out, people who look too good can be off-putting. When selecting a partner at random I don't think I do select the one whom I find most attractive, it's a combination of "Looking like they would be good to dance with" and "Looking like they might say yes" that clinches the (split-second, unconscious) decision.

I don't know what men say about women in all-male company, doesn't bear thinking about. Rather naively, I assume that intelligent, reconstructed men, of which there are many, no doubt, to be found on the forum, wouldn't emphasise physical features in derogatory terms as the main standard to judge them by when talking about women.

Having tried to analyse how women talk about men from my own experience I think that physical features certainly do get mentioned but are not given more importance than features like manners, grooming & personality. Criticisms made of those features can be extremely harsh and dismissive, however.

WAAAY off thread.

[DavidB]

I don't know what men say about women in all-male company, doesn't bear thinking about.
The most in-depth discussion of women would go something like:
"Have you danced with xxxx"
"No - not yet"

We are more likely to be talking about sport/cars/movies/work etc than women.


WAAAY off thread.OK. So if led into a train, there is an easy way to both follow the move and express your delight at doing it. It is called the 'Virgin West Coast' variation. As Virgin only get 66% of their trains on time, you do 2 steps, and then just completely stop before doing the third. After a few seconds, you then leave your partner on the floor, and expect him to make alternative arrangements to finish the move.

[spindr]

A shopping trolley that's pilled high is less maneuverable (leadable) -- simply due to the physics of the situation -- it takes more effort to stop, stop, change direction or spin.

If you're a beginner/lazy leader -- then you may well try to draw similar conclusions on the dance floor -- especially if you're used to pushing and pulling your partner around like a shopping trolley.

Dancers can't defy physics but they can use good technique to make the most of what they can do. The problem is that one can't necessarily tell a "good" dancer when you're sat still. Even after 20 years of dancing, *I* still get it wrong -- I can get some idea of health, vitality, carriage, poise, interest and inclination -- but not technique. One glance at the floor, or leading a travelling return and I can make a pretty good guess tho'.

Anyway, a smile will knock years of your age and pounds off your weight -- so, guess how I chose my partners? :)

SpinDr.

[David Bailey]

The most in-depth discussion of women would go something like:
"Have you danced with xxxx"
"No - not yet"
:yeah:

Boy, you talk that much to other guys? You're clearly an advanced conversationalist. I'm usually at the "Hi" level at most, sometimes only a nod in passing. This idea, that men are talking at all, let alone having in-depth conversations, is amazing to me... :what:

Or, possibly, everyone's been shunning me for the past 15 years and I've only just noticed... :eek:

OK, perhaps a slight exaggeration, but I can't honestly remember having any such discussion with any man about the physical features of any woman, certainly not in the past few years. The most I may say / may be said to me, is "She's a great dancer". That's it.

On the other hand, I've had lots of those sort of conversations (ie. dissing someone else) with women...


We are more likely to be talking about sport/cars/movies/work etc than women.Heh, I am far more likely to be dancing, or possibly talking to dance partners, than talking to guys...



OK. So if led into a train, there is an easy way to both follow the move and express your delight at doing it. It is called the 'Virgin West Coast' variation. As Virgin only get 66% of their trains on time, you do 2 steps, and then just completely stop before doing the third. After a few seconds, you then leave your partner on the floor, and expect him to make alternative arrangements to finish the move.
:rofl: :rofl:

[jivecat]

The most in-depth discussion of women would go something like:
"Have you danced with xxxx"
"No - not yet"

Well, that's good then. What I'd hoped for from civilised forumites.

[Cruella]

I had to do a double take when I read this, and think back several years to when we first danced.

This is one of those topics (and of course well off thread now) where it's probably safer to say nothing, someone is bound to get upset, but that doesn't always stop me. :eek: Yes, my first impression was probably that you were a large lady, my second impression (and far more important) was how much you enjoyed dancing, and how much fun you are to dance with. That impression is the one that is far more lasting. (And it adds to the impression of what an attraactive lady you are... :blush: )


Greg

Thank you for being such a gentleman Greg. :flower: Thankfully you never let the fact that i was larger put you off dancing with me, therefore we have had alot of great dances over the years. :clap: and long may that continue even though there is less of me now!!

[Missy D]

And another thing: If it's OK for ladies to talk about sweaty scrawny chests and atrophied pecs, does that mean I should complain - supposing it bothered me - about having to touch lard-mountain hips or wizened twisted old fingers ("ach") while I dance? Our bodies are whatever they are.

I cant stop laughing about this :rofl:
:rofl:

[dee]

And another thing: If it's OK for ladies to talk about sweaty scrawny chests and atrophied pecs, does that mean I should complain - supposing it bothered me - about having to touch lard-mountain hips or wizened twisted old fingers ("ach") while I dance? Our bodies are whatever they are.

ESG thats so funny, i hear lots of things that us ladies complain about reguarding you men, makes a change to hear about the male point of view.

No comment on drops then?

[Missy D]

ESG thats so funny, i hear lots of things that us ladies complain about reguarding you men, makes a change to hear about the male point of view.

No comment on drops then?

I love watching the men struggle as a "shallow Hal" throws herself into a drop and you are right Dee men never complain. If it were a man and i couldnt lift the woman up without a struggle i would just leave her there wouldn't you :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[horsey_dude]

I am not familiar with the move but you could just push him away with you index finger which wouldn't be too comfortable....

[jivecat]

I am not familiar with the move but you could just push him away with you index finger which wouldn't be too comfortable....

Oh blo*dy h*ll, who revived this dreadful old thread which I thought had mercifully died a death long since?

Horsey Dude, where have you been hiding, you used to be on the forum all the time when I first joined.

[Cruella]

I was quite enjoying rereading this actually. Have to agree with ESG again (Darn it thats twice now:sick: ) None of us are perfect! (except Silverfox allegedly! according to the man himself) Most of us beat ourselves up about our body images we really don't need others to point out our unattractive features. Male or female. It's far nicer to appreciate everyones finer points than focus on the negatives.

[littlewiggle]

I know I'm weird but this move always brings a smile to my face, it's sooo cheesy and funny and I've found loads of ways to 'play' it....

Sweaty scrawny chest = very straight index finger poke

Sleazy letch = Thumbs only, with fingers spread wide in the NO WAY styley

Can't bare to touch them at all = put your hands together and do a genie in a bottle action, straight up. out and round and grab their hands on the way out

Nice body :drool: = Stop and take a couple of beats to enjoy ;) run fingers slowly down from collar bones, through to middle of chest, then flat hands on both pec's and push away with a :wink: !

And silly cheeky mates get their nipples pinched really hard! :D

Love it! :rofl:

[horsey_dude]

Horsey Dude, where have you been hiding, you used to be on the forum all the time when I first joined.


I left my job and travelled/lived overseas for about a year and a half before getting sick of it and running home with my tail between my legs. I went back to my old job, moved in to an apartment 1 door down from where I lived before and took up my old life.....

I definately appreciate what I have more now. I also did hardly any dancing so I didn't have much to post about.

[TheTramp]

Heya HD...

Nice to see you on here again.

Where in NZ are you? I was there for 3 weeks in June, and had a great time. Definitely coming back next year - probably for longer :clap:

[horsey_dude]

Heya HD...

Nice to see you on here again.

Where in NZ are you? I was there for 3 weeks in June, and had a great time. Definitely coming back next year - probably for longer :clap:

I'm living in Wellington, I had just got back in the country and stopped in to class to say Hi to people and I saw you talking to Mandy at the front desk. Then when I went to say hello you were dancing and my friend wanted to leave so I thought I would just see you around at class.
I will buy you a beer (or whatever, I can't remember if you are a drinker) next time you are here.

Cheers,
HD.