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David Bailey
14th-May-2005, 11:53 AM
Having been corrupted last night by a certain Forumite, who shall remain nameless (you know who you are...) into having a whole beer before dancing, I realised I have very little tolerance for this alcohol stuff - what can I say, I'm a square.

I did feel a bit more loose for the "get down and dirty tracks", but I certainly couldn't keep balance well, and nearly fell over on a couple of double-spins. It took a good 20 minutes to dance it out of my system.

However, this could be just me - what do other people think about the Evils of Drink?

MartinHarper
14th-May-2005, 01:57 PM
It took a good 20 minutes to dance it out of my system.

If I recall, a pint of beer takes around 4 hours to fade out of your system. (2 units = 4 hours?). So, after the first 20 minutes I imagine you were still under the influence, but just better able to cope.

Lynn
14th-May-2005, 02:07 PM
Alcohol makes me dance superbly, last for hours, and be irresistible to the opposite sex :rofl:

On a more serious note, when alcohol can make guys* think that and by that stage they are not very pleasant to dance with :sad: - either because they think they are 'dancing superbly' and put you into dangerous drops or spin you directly into other dancers - or if they think they are 'irrestible' they dance way too UCP and don't pick up on all the 'keep your distance' signals. Yeuch!

*And I'm not saying a woman who has had a few too many is any better, but I'm speaking from the perspective of my/my friends experiences of dancing with men who don't seem to know how much alcohol is appropriate when dancing.

Personally speaking - I have trouble enough with my spins as it is, so I tend to stick to water!

David Bailey
14th-May-2005, 02:23 PM
If I recall, a pint of beer takes around 4 hours to fade out of your system. (2 units = 4 hours?). So, after the first 20 minutes I imagine you were still under the influence, but just better able to cope.
Or perhaps I just thought I could :eek:

philsmove
14th-May-2005, 06:12 PM
Have to admit I’m partial to a small glass of chardonnay, with a light meal before dancing :cheers:

RogerR
14th-May-2005, 08:15 PM
In a class situation drinking tends to reduce the benefit gained from the class, but when arriving at a social dance a drink is a refreshing mind altering substance that can de-stress after a journey. Still there is statutory requirement to be below the limit before driving. Bring on the bar that charges less for a pint of tax free squash than a beer with 85p to the taxman (beer £1.80, squash £2.20 ) recently

David Bailey
14th-May-2005, 08:20 PM
Have to admit I’m partial to a small glass of chardonnay, with a light meal before dancing :cheers:
OK, did anyobody else read that and think ""Liver, Fava beans and Chianti?"

Just me then ... :blush:

ElaineB
14th-May-2005, 08:24 PM
:rofl:

On a more serious note, when alcohol can make guys* think that and by that stage they are not very pleasant to dance with :sad: - either because they think they are 'dancing superbly' and put you into dangerous drops or spin you directly into other dancers - or if they think they are 'irrestible' they dance way too UCP and don't pick up on all the 'keep your distance' signals. Yeuch!

*And I'm not saying a woman who has had a few too many is any better, but I'm speaking from the perspective of my/my friends experiences of dancing with men who don't seem to know how much alcohol is appropriate when dancing.

Personally speaking - I have trouble enough with my spins as it is, so I tend to stick to water!

:clap: :clap: :clap:

Agreed!!! I only ever drink after a competition and then only one......for me, dancing and drinking just do not work!


Elaine

David Bailey
14th-May-2005, 08:28 PM
Bring on the bar that charges less for a pint of tax free squash than a beer with 85p to the taxman (beer £1.80, squash £2.20 ) recently

I've said it so many times, you don't have to serve alcohol to dancers, and you make so much more profit on soft drinks... Production, storage, distribution, administration; they're all so much easier without alcohol.

If a venue catered exclusively for (MJ) dancers, it should focus on a good range of soft drinks, and not even bother with a drinks license; I'm sure it'd clean up.

RogerR
14th-May-2005, 10:26 PM
Lamentably most venues pay their way by bar take. Some impose a minimum bar spend total on the hirer some just dont continue hires with low bar take. Remembers Notre Dame Hall - supermarket sized bottled water at supermarket prices. sadly not for dancing any longer.

David Bailey
14th-May-2005, 11:12 PM
Lamentably most venues pay their way by bar take. Some impose a minimum bar spend total on the hirer some just dont continue hires with low bar take. Remembers Notre Dame Hall - supermarket sized bottled water at supermarket prices. sadly not for dancing any longer.
Oh, I'm not suggesting cheapo prices - I just think that focussing on soft-only would actually generate more revenue.

Decent soft drinks, the ones we want - refreshing, targetted as our requirements rather than the requirements of the average pub- or club-goer. I've got no problem with paying decent prices for drinks, but I resent having to subsidise the alcohol costs of a bar when I normally never drink alcohol.

Oooh, I'm getting all steamed up now :blush:

philsmove
15th-May-2005, 08:03 AM
If a venue catered exclusively for (MJ) dancers, it should focus on a good range of soft drinks, and not even bother with a drinks license; I'm sure it'd clean up.
I suggested this to some local organisers who run their own bar
But they disagreed

Quite a lot of people bring their non-drinking partners who are happy to watch or may have just have the occasion bob

But if there were no bar, nether partner would come

A lot of my friends like at least one alcoholic drink during a social dance :cheers:

bigdjiver
15th-May-2005, 09:39 AM
My guess is that the drinks companies have a strong discounting incentive scheme to sell more alcohol. So, even though the bar may make more per pint on soft drinks, there are magical targets to reach where one extra pint of beer sold obtains a big discount, and this sets a sell alcohol culture.

DavidB
15th-May-2005, 11:12 AM
I like having a drink when I dance. Usually I'm driving, so I make sure I keep under the limit. But occasionally I will have a lot more.

The availability of alcohol at a venue is not at the top of my list of factors when deciding where to go dancing. However I wouldn't go regularly to a soft-drinks only venue.

I've had a quick look to see if physical activity affects the body's rate of breaking down the alcohol. I know it feels like it does, but couldn't find any information on it. I suspect that the depressive effect of alcohol is just counteracted by the stimulative effect of the dancing. I would still stick to the normal rates of your body removing alcohol (ie 1 unit per hour).

David

Little Monkey
15th-May-2005, 11:38 AM
For me, alcohol and dancing don't mix. Any more than about 1/2 pint of lager, and my spinning goes pear-shaped. After a couple of pints, my concentration goes, too. I just drink GALLONS of water!

I also dislike (read: detest!) dancing with guys who are obviously drunk, or even just tipsy, as in about 90% of the cases (in my experience, anyway) they become very sloppy leads (or use too much force when leading/think they can do the most fantastic intricate moves/dips/drops, and end up hurting you), and in more extreme cases think they're absolutely irresistible, and do a lot of UCP moves - YUC!! :sick: :mad:

Most guys can handle a pint or two without it affecting their dancing abilities much, though. Personally I avoid alcohol when dancing, thus (hopefully) giving my dance partners a much more pleasant dance experience than if I was drunk.

Little Sober Monkey :)

PS - and I don't need alcohol to act silly/misbehave/have fun! It comes naturally! :wink:

Mary
15th-May-2005, 11:48 AM
I reckon, as a rule of thumb, drinking and dancing don't mix - for anyone. However, if I am out social dancing then I do quite enjoy a glass of wine during the evening, interspersed with lots of water.

At a competition it has been known for me to have a small glass of wine as I am often rigid with fear and terror before dancing. This rigidity and lack of responsiveness has led to a bad shoulder injury before going on. After it's all over my idea of heaven is a large bowl of pasta and a bottle of something delicious, and then back for some really relaxing social dancing.

M

Ballroom queen
15th-May-2005, 02:19 PM
I've had a quick look to see if physical activity affects the body's rate of breaking down the alcohol. I know it feels like it does, but couldn't find any information on it. I suspect that the depressive effect of alcohol is just counteracted by the stimulative effect of the dancing. I would still stick to the normal rates of your body removing alcohol (ie 1 unit per hour).

David

Alcohol is metabolised by the liver in zero order kinetics, ie approx 1 unit per hour regardless of hour much you drink. being "active" or "fit" makes no difference on metabolism.

In answer to someone elses question you do get tolerant to the depressive effects of alcohol in a single dose - ie the alcohol level at which you can stand up again may be higher than the point at which you fell over. (my third year project at uni was "kinetics and tolerance to depressive drugs" - we used alcohol in humans and reaction time tests, great fun!!! Reaction times get slower as you get drunk, as you sober up they get better at a higher breath alcohol level. Subjects had had enough "practice" for it not to be due to learning.

I often say "you can't drink and jive" - I do like the odd glass of wine when I'm at a dance and not driving, but I don't dance so well.

baldrick
15th-May-2005, 04:46 PM
I'm not a great one for drinking anyway, and often I'm driving. But when I can have a drink its pleasant to do so, but one or two beers a night plus soft drinks to keep hydrated.
It does sometimes feel a bit puritanical on the forum. A friend who is new to the Ceroc scene felt shunned on night after having had a small number of beers. Reading the forum did not help that feeling.
Drunk is not a good thing and if people were more open to how little it takes to be affected it would be easier. But zero tolerance is a bit heavy handed.

David Bailey
15th-May-2005, 05:34 PM
It does sometimes feel a bit puritanical on the forum. A friend who is new to the Ceroc scene felt shunned on night after having had a small number of beers. Reading the forum did not help that feeling.
I'm sorry if any of my posts have given that impression, and I'm certainly happy for people to be falling-down drunk, but I just won't dance with them - I suspect many women feel the same about men.

And Friday's experience just reminded me why I don't drink and dance; basically because I can't. No morals involved, just practicality.

As for "shunning", well it's a ruthlessly competitive world out there, and if you give yourself a disadvantage, you'll get less offers to dance, surely that's self-evident? It's not, pre se, "shunning", it's just that there are lots of other potential partners who haven't had anything to drink... Partner dancing isn't a democracy, it's a meritocracy. Apologies if that sounds harsh - again, I've no intent to offend, but that's how I see it, and hopefully that's useful information to other new starters. At least that may explain why - I don't think anyone would confuse the average MJ-er with the Temperance League. We're just selfish in the pursuit of our own pleasures.

I guess if you're new to partner dancing, and you're just used to club dancing, you really don't think about these effects so much. It's when you need to have concentration, focus, balance and timing that you realize how much these things get disrupted by alcohol.

Also, with beer for guys, you sweat it out when you dance, and women can generally tell by the "aroma"...

Again, this isn't a moral crusade, it's just observing that alcohol will generally, at least for me, cause obstructions to my main aim for the night - having a damned good set of partner dances (in case you were wondering :) )

MartinHarper
15th-May-2005, 05:43 PM
Why I don't drink and dance; basically because I can't. No morals involved, just practicality.

If you practice a little more, you'll learn how to do it a little better. :)

under par
15th-May-2005, 06:15 PM
If I recall, a pint of beer takes around 4 hours to fade out of your system. (2 units = 4 hours?). So, after the first 20 minutes I imagine you were still under the influence, but just better able to cope.

Martin for info,

One unit of alcohol increases the blood/alcohol level by 15 mg /100 ml in a man (and 20mg/100 ml in a woman).

In a healthy person 90 % of the alcohol is cleared from the blood by the liver at a rate of 15 mg / 100 ml per hour.

So one unit of alcohol disperses every hour in a healthy person on average.

But vigourous excercise (dancing) would allow to body to "process" or metabolise (sp?)the alcohol quicker, but only by a small amount.

baldrick
15th-May-2005, 07:42 PM
1st off David, my post was not aimed at you in particular :flower: . This subject has come up before.

My feeling is more towards all things in moderation. Different people cope with alcohol differently. Sure drop your dancing standards regularly and your reputation suffers, rightly. However the forum brings out the members with the strongest feeling/responses, and I'm trying to be a balance to a possible anti drink leaning.

No-one, lead or follow, should have to cope with unpleasant behaviour. Wether that is fed by alcohol is not entirely relavent. Play nice has never seemed such good or apt advice. :cheers:

Lory
15th-May-2005, 08:13 PM
Having been corrupted last night by a certain Forumite, who shall remain nameless (you know who you are...) into having a whole beer before dancing, I realised I have very little tolerance for this alcohol stuff :rolleyes:


ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzz


what can I say, I'm a square.
:yeah:

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Before anyone says anything, I'd like to say, I mainly drive myself to all venues and I DON'T drink and drive, so in reality, I don't drink and dance that often! BUT when I do, I love it! (bad bad woman :rolleyes: )

AND I don't think I'm particularly awful to dance with either. :innocent:

When we were at Camber, most people at the barbie had a drink and it created a great atmosphere and I believe it was the very same people who were there dancing right till the bitter end, all having a great time. :clap:

I remember meeting up with a couple of people who are NON drinkers and thinking to my self, Gosh, you really need to lighten up....moan moan moan! :(

So, at Southport, for all those, who look down on people who like to let their hair down and have a drink.... make a note to... AVOID me! :cool:

How to recognise me... I'll be the one enjoying myself! :wink:

baldrick
15th-May-2005, 08:20 PM
How to recognise me... I'll be the one enjoying myself! :wink:
Ah Lory may we meet again, and let me buy you a drink :cheers:

Ballroom queen
15th-May-2005, 09:22 PM
But vigourous excercise (dancing) would allow to body to "process" or metabolise (sp?)the alcohol quicker, but only by a small amount.

I don't agree with this, I believe alcohol to be an example of a "capacity limited" drug, ie metabolism is fixed, with zero order kinetics, and therefore is not affected by changes in blood flow to the liver (drugs that are are termed "flow limited"), ie alcohol metabolism would not be affected by exercise. I would be interested to see evidence to the contrary.

TheTramp
15th-May-2005, 10:13 PM
I remember meeting up with a couple of people who are NON drinkers and thinking to my self, Gosh, you really need to lighten up....moan moan moan! :(

So, at Southport, for all those, who look down on people who like to let their hair down and have a drink.... make a note to... AVOID me! :cool:
I'm sorry Lory. I didn't realise that you felt quite that strongly about non-drinkers....

Guess I won't be getting those dances at Southport then :tears:

David Bailey
15th-May-2005, 10:26 PM
AND I don't think I'm particularly awful to dance with either.
As always, you are divine to dance with, of course.

This is not about you, it's about me, and a general curiosity to see what other people think.

Apologies for any offence - that seems to be my catchphrase at the moment. :sad:

Lou
15th-May-2005, 10:42 PM
And Friday's experience just reminded me why I don't drink and dance; basically because I can't. No morals involved, just practicality.
I'm the same. I can't drink and dance.

Well.... except last night, when driven to several gin & tonics due to dreadful wedding music (especially Shania. Oh god. Shania. :tears: ), when I quite cheerfully muggle danced all night.

But my Modern Jiving goes completely screwy if I drink. I don't lose my balance too badly, but I find it much harder to follow a lead.

David Bailey
15th-May-2005, 10:46 PM
... dreadful wedding music (especially Shania. Oh god. Shania. :tears: ),...
I dunno, I always had a soft spot for "That Don't Impress me much" :)

Did you have the Piano song? :whistle:

Lou
15th-May-2005, 10:50 PM
I dunno, I always had a soft spot for "That Don't Impress me much" :)
Me too.

In the incinerator, on top of various beige & brightly coloured items of clothing. That'll be nice and soft.....

Piano song? :confused:

David Bailey
15th-May-2005, 11:08 PM
In the incinerator, on top of various beige & brightly coloured items of clothing. That'll be nice and soft.....

:eek: But it's such a great video :tears:


Piano song? :confused:
You know, "I am the piano man, I come from far away,... " etc, with the chorus of naming all those instruments, and "Pia, Pia, Piano".

Every wedding plays it, I think it's The Law or something. It couldn't have been a proper wedding without it, the marriage will probably have to be annulled if it wasn't played... :D

Will
16th-May-2005, 02:50 PM
I like having a drink when I dance.
I like to have a drink when he dances too.

Russell Saxby
16th-May-2005, 05:19 PM
[QUOTE=Lory]

When we were at Camber, most people at the barbie had a drink and it created a great atmosphere and I believe it was the very same people who were there dancing right till the bitter end, all having a great time. :clap:

QUOTE]

Guilty as charged, and if I remember rightly I was still dancing until the end - unless of course it was an alcohol induced hallucination

:cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Zebra Woman
16th-May-2005, 05:59 PM
When we were at Camber, most people at the barbie had a drink and it created a great atmosphere and I believe it was the very same people who were there dancing right till the bitter end, all having a great time. :clap:


That is SO TRUE !

all night to the bitter end ....

BOTH NIGHTS :worthy: :cheers:

Rebecca
16th-May-2005, 06:23 PM
Having been a (very) willing recipient of Russell's moves right to the end at Camber I would have to say that alcohol does apparently work for some when dancing (especially the blues). Although being described as an alcohol-induced hallucination is interesting ;)

For me, spinning is best taking place from my feet than from my head.

(First posting - been a voyeur until now)

Lory
16th-May-2005, 06:35 PM
(First posting - been a voyeur until now)
I think I remember you! :) Welcome to the Forum Rebecca! :hug:

DavidB
16th-May-2005, 06:46 PM
I like to have a drink when he dances too.Will - that was a bit uncalled for. Especially when I was so sympathetic about Man City not making it into the Uefa Cup... :whistle:

frodo
16th-May-2005, 09:42 PM
.... (my third year project at uni was "kinetics and tolerance to depressive drugs" - we used alcohol in humans and reaction time tests, great fun!!! Reaction times get slower as you get drunk, as you sober up they get better at a higher breath alcohol level ...
Though I've seen a couple of surveys showing reaction times speeding up after a small amount of alcohol ( I think one drink ), before getting slower with additional drinks.

Accuracy deteriorated with a single drink though.

MartinHarper
16th-May-2005, 11:14 PM
There's an interesting paper (http://www.penscreen.co.uk/PBB_2001.html) on "ethanol errors speed-accuracy trade-off", if anyone's interested. It has graphs and things, so it's comparatively light reading.

In my (limited) experience, dancing with a 10% impairment in reaction time is kinda like dancing to music that's 10% faster (only without the extra exertion). Dancing to faster tracks after alcohol would be a mistake, but the slower tunes should be safe enough.

Rebecca
16th-May-2005, 11:24 PM
I think I remember you! :) Welcome to the Forum Rebecca! :hug:

Thanks for the welcome Lory (and the complimentary PM). Seeing as alcohol is the subject I'll buy u one when i meet u next :cheers:

under par
17th-May-2005, 02:01 AM
I don't agree with this, I believe alcohol to be an example of a "capacity limited" drug, ie metabolism is fixed, with zero order kinetics, and therefore is not affected by changes in blood flow to the liver (drugs that are are termed "flow limited"), ie alcohol metabolism would not be affected by exercise. I would be interested to see evidence to the contrary.

I am not a medical person.

I was at work when i posted and asked the advice of my forensic medical examiner and forensic nurse.

I would always bow to a person who is better qualified in any subject than me.

I did speak to these medical people about this topic and posted the advice given.

You sound like you know what you are talking about and therefore bow to that better knowledge. :flower:

under par

Purple Sparkler
17th-May-2005, 11:25 AM
I only drink after the dancing. There are enough other things that can make me lose my concentration without beer coming into the equation. This is why I'm quite glad that ISH finishes at 10.30. And that there's a super-cheap bar upstairs where everyone goes when we're done dancing.

Ballroom queen
17th-May-2005, 02:08 PM
I am not a medical person.

I was at work when i posted and asked the advice of my forensic medical examiner and forensic nurse.

I would always bow to a person who is better qualified in any subject than me.

I did speak to these medical people about this topic and posted the advice given.

You sound like you know what you are talking about and therefore bow to that better knowledge. :flower:

under par

Thanks,
I would be interested in you re-checking with your forensic medical collegues - they too obviously have to know about alcohol metabolism, and I am intrigued how it speeds up, I look forward to thier response!

Alcohol is not a drug I prescribe / dispense frequently, but yes I am medical!

Rebecca
17th-May-2005, 02:41 PM
As much as the pseudo-scientific nature of this debate is fascinating I thought I'd bring it back down to earth with the following amusement (note item 3):

Subject: Dear Alcohol....

Dear Alcohol,

First & foremost, let me tell you that I'm a huge fan of yours. As my
friend, you always seem to be there when needed. The perfect post-work
cocktail, a beer at the game, and you're even around in the holidays,
hidden inside chocolates as you warm us when we're stuck in the midst of
endless family gatherings. However, lately I've been wondering about
your intentions. While I want to believe that you have my best interests
at heart, I feel that your influence has led to some unwise
consequences:

1. Phone calls: While I agree with you that communication is important,
I question the suggestion that any conversation of substance or
necessity takes place after 2 a.m. Why would you make me call those
ex-boyfriends/girlfriends when I know for a fact they do not want to
hear from me during the day, let alone all hours of the night?

2. Eating: Now, you know I love a good meal, but why do you suggest that
I eat a kebab, a butter chicken curry along with a sausage with cheese,
onion and mustard (washed down with WINE & topped off with a Kit Kat
after a few sweet chilli and sour cream red rock chips)? I'm an eclectic
eater, but I think you went too far this time.

3. Clumsiness: Unless you're subtly trying to tell me that I need to do
more yoga to improve my balance, I see NO need to hammer the issue home
by causing me to fall down. It's completely unnecessary, and the black &
blue marks that appear on my body mysteriously the next day are beyond
me. Similarly, it should never take me more than 45 seconds to get the
front door key into the lock.

4. Furthermore: The hangovers have GOT to stop. This is getting
ridiculous. I know a little penance for our previous evening's
debauchery may be in order, but the 3pm hangover immobility is
completely unacceptable. My entire day is shot. I ask that, if the
proper precautions are taken (water, vitamin B, bread products, aspirin)
prior to going to sleep/passing out face down on the kitchen floor with
a bag of popcorn, the hangover should be minimal & in no way interfere
with my daily activities.

Alcohol, I have enjoyed our friendship for some years now & would like
to ensure that we remain on good terms. You've been the invoker of great
stories, the provocation for much laughter, and the needed companion
when I just don't know what to do with the extra money in my pockets.

In order to continue this friendship, I ask that you carefully review my
grievances above & address them immediately. I will look for an answer
no later than Thursday 3pm (pre-happy hour) on your possible solutions &
hopefully we can continue this fruitful partnership.

Thank you,

Your biggest fan

P.S.
THINGS THAT ARE DIFFICULT TO SAY WHEN DRUNK:
1. Innovative
2. Preliminary
3. Proliferation
4. Cinnamon

THINGS THAT ARE VERY DIFFICULT TO SAY WHEN DRUNK:
1. Specificity
2. British Constitution
3. Passive-aggressive disorder

THINGS THAT ARE DOWNRIGHT IMPOSSIBLE TO SAY WHEN DRUNK:
1. Thanks, but I don't want to have sex.
2. Nope, no more beer for me.
3. Sorry, but you're not really my type.
4. Good evening, officer. Isn't it lovely out tonight?
5. Oh, I couldn't. No one wants to hear me sing

Guilty as charged! (on all counts I'm sorry to say)
Rebecca x

Purple Sparkler
17th-May-2005, 02:58 PM
:rofl:
That was bloody brilliant.

Mary
18th-May-2005, 01:27 PM
hey Rebecca - we seem to have the same friend. How weird is that?!!!! I keep thinking it's time to 'cool' the friendship down a bit, but he can be persisitant can't he? :D

M

Rebecca
18th-May-2005, 03:52 PM
hey Rebecca - we seem to have the same friend. How weird is that?!!!! I keep thinking it's time to 'cool' the friendship down a bit, but he can be persisitant can't he? :D

M

He's persistent and quite reliable really. It takes a while to get to know him but then he's fairly consistent. A good friend to have, makes me smile, makes me laugh, makes me cry, makes me want to dance (and sing badly), and my friends and family LOVE him. Where's the harm? Well, if he were ever there waiting for me when I get up in the morning then the relationship has gone way too far, but for now a casual fling now and again is great.

Glad he's your friend too x

DavidB
18th-May-2005, 04:26 PM
he can be persistant can't he?I don't agree that this friend is a he. It must be a she.

- She makes you do stupid things to impress her.
- She makes you spend more and more money on her.
- She never tells you not to do something. She just expects you to read her mind.
- She remembers what you did for years, even when you desperately try to forget. But she only reminds you when you do it again.
- You can never win an argument with her.
- You can't even drown your sorrows without thinking about her.

David

Rebecca
18th-May-2005, 05:22 PM
I don't agree that this friend is a he. It must be a she.

- She makes you do stupid things to impress her.
- She makes you spend more and more money on her.
- She never tells you not to do something. She just expects you to read her mind.
- She remembers what you did for years, even when you desperately try to forget. But she only reminds you when you do it again.
- You can never win an argument with her.
- You can't even drown your sorrows without thinking about her.

David


Ahh, but you'll always come back for more :wink: