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Stuart M
12th-May-2005, 01:21 PM
Erm...I dunno. The ability to learn quickly? React quickly? Stagecraft? Looks? Hair? Kilt-wearing abilities? Discuss.

I've done it a few times - happy enough demoing a beginner's lesson, not quite so happy with an Intermediate class, doing moves I'd just learned. Still fun though.

azande
12th-May-2005, 01:44 PM
From a male demo point of view, I think one of the most important things is consistency in repeating the same move in the same way every time. There is nothing worse than trying to follow the teacher and the demo explaining a move while they do it every time in a different way.

And to demo the intermediate lesson you certainly have to be a quick learner!

CJ
12th-May-2005, 02:45 PM
And to demo the intermediate lesson you certainly have to be a quick learner!

:yeah:

Anyway, I wouldn't know but am happy to learn.

I would have thought tight trousers and a VPL essential, though. Is that not the case, Toaster Boy??

Danielle
12th-May-2005, 03:04 PM
I was demo for the first time with Nigel at hipsters on Tuesday, was very nervous and didn't dance as well as i should of (although Nigel was very nice and said I was great - but I know i wasn't :sick: ). So I think the key (for female demos anyway) is relaxing and enjoying yourself while you demo and the rest should all fall into place!
After all the teachers wouldn't ask you if they didn't think you could do it!!!! :grin:

Tessalicious
12th-May-2005, 03:07 PM
I was demo for the first time with Nigel at hipsters on Tuesday, was very nervous and didn't dance as well as i should of (although Nigel was very nice and said I was great - but I know i wasn't :sick: ). So I think the key (for female demos anyway) is relaxing and enjoying yourself while you demo and the rest should all fall into place!
After all the teachers wouldn't ask you if they didn't think you could do it!!!! :grin:
Danielle you were great on Tuesday, I was new to Hipsters and had no idea it was your first time as demo - you came across as confident and stylish and I felt that I learnt something from watching you, which is always nice! :clap:

Danielle
12th-May-2005, 03:22 PM
thank you :flower:

David Bailey
12th-May-2005, 03:29 PM
I think a male demo has to be a "passive lead", using the terminology from the "active / passive" thread.

So you've got to do exactly what you should, when you should, but be aware that you are, effectively, being lead. Although always bearing in mind the fact that you may have to very occasionally supply a real lead if required

This combination should then give the (female) teacher confidence that you'll do it right every time, and that even if she makes a mistake or forgets a signal, you'll fill the gap.

Maybe I'm biased, but I think a male demo has a much harder time of it than a female demo, simply because of the subtleties of these requirements.

And of course you mustn't rush through the move :)

Bangers & Mash
12th-May-2005, 03:49 PM
The new demo at Marcos last thurday was good.

I've never concentrated so hard in my life. :blush:

Doc Iain
13th-May-2005, 04:12 PM
From doing a class point of view.... someone who does the move well, adds a bit of style when required but does not detract from the teach. Having said that the best always seem to when the couple are known for their combined skills and not just as teacher and demo.... Nigel and Nina etc. etc. (THE best I ever saw was Viktor when Lydia was teaching...)
From being a demo for a while now, I think the ability to learn quickly, remember even quicker, be supportive, have a laugh at your own expense and get the footwork right are the keys i think...


Danielle you were always going to do fine!! More than enough style and skill to demo!! If I taught I would ask you to demo :p...

congrats on posting too :whistle: :wink:

El Salsero Gringo
13th-May-2005, 04:21 PM
From doing a class point of view.... someone who does the move well, adds a bit of style when required but does not detract from the teach.

{snip}

THE best I ever saw was Viktor when Lydia was teaching...While Viktor and Lydia were inspiring as teachers, Lydia in particular used to add so much extra style into her moves that it was sometimes impossible for a novice like me to work out what she was doing.

Doc Iain
13th-May-2005, 04:24 PM
While Viktor and Lydia were inspiring as teachers, Lydia in particular used to add so much extra style into her moves that it was sometimes impossible for a novice like me to work out what she was doing.

yes point taken.... i just liked trying to dance a quater as smooth as Viktor!

Danielle
13th-May-2005, 04:28 PM
yes point taken.... i just liked trying to dance a quater as smooth as Viktor!

with your hips on Wednesday night you were getting close!! :D

Doc Iain
13th-May-2005, 04:32 PM
with your hips on Wednesday night you were getting close!! :D


:rofl: :cool: .... nah.... :blush:

MartinHarper
13th-May-2005, 04:55 PM
when the couple are known for their combined skills and not just as teacher and demo....

teacher + teacher > teacher + demo
teacher + members of class > teacher + demo, though logistically harder.
teacher + teacher + members of class > all

El Salsero Gringo
13th-May-2005, 05:32 PM
teacher + teacher > teacher + demo
teacher + members of class > teacher + demo, though logistically harder.
teacher + teacher + members of class > allTeacher plus teacher is bigger than teacher plus demo? Or teacher standing on teacher is taller than teacher standing on demo? Teacher plus teacher plus the whole class is bigger than all? (If they're all on the stage then who's watching the lesson?)

Go on Martin, permit yourself the luxury of using a few words to explain - I'm lost!

David Bailey
13th-May-2005, 07:12 PM
Go on Martin, permit yourself the luxury of using a few words to explain - I'm lost!
:yeah:
If you're saying that a teacher with a class member is better than a teacher with a demo, I'd disagree. Demos have a specific set of skill requirements - like any good lead, their job is to make the follower comfortable and relaxed enough to be confident, amongst other things.

But then, I didn't really understand the equation either...

azande
13th-May-2005, 08:36 PM
Go on Martin, permit yourself the luxury of using a few words to explain - I'm lost!
:rofl: :rofl: Please!!!

Alfie
13th-May-2005, 10:18 PM
I have demonstrated for lots of teachers and have found the need to be able to learn quickly and to continue with the moves if the teacher is saying something different to the actual routine blurb.
I think the ability to be a little bit dynamic but very possitive and technically correct so the men watching can pick up on a good execution of the moves being taught.
It helps to know your lefts and rights for leading, to aid the teachers explanation ( by whispered prompting ) as every thing they teach is opposite to what they are actually doing and its easy to forget which hand is doing what.
I used to enjoy demmoing intermediates more than beginners as intermediate classes were quite a challenge to me as a dancer as well as a demmo.

Banana Man
13th-May-2005, 10:54 PM
Can't believe more people haven't posted!

Maybe it's the question? Not really sure I understand the purpose or objective of the first post I know there are quite a few forumites who demo on a regular or occasional basis, but I guess many don't want to declare themselves, or perhaps they are also confused?

What is the question? What is the purpose of a dem - to help the teacher explain or demostrate the move - consistently?, or what would be good values in a dem? or something else?

:confused:

El Salsero Gringo
13th-May-2005, 11:26 PM
Can't believe more people haven't posted!

Maybe it's the question? Not really sure I understand the purpose or objective of the first post I know there are quite a few forumites who demo on a regular or occasional basis, but I guess many don't want to declare themselves,I'm just loitering hoping to pick up some tips.
or perhaps they are also confused?In my case, it's a positive lifestyle choice.

ChrisA
14th-May-2005, 12:15 AM
Can't believe more people haven't posted!

I think there's an inverse correlation between the amount of nonsense posted on a potentially serious thread, and the inclination of those that take questions such as this relatively seriously, to engage with the topic.

ChrisA
14th-May-2005, 12:20 AM
inverse correlation
I might translate this for CJ, and one or two others I can think of, to mean..

"There's too much ***** here already for me to be ***** to wade through it."

:flower:

CJ
14th-May-2005, 12:38 AM
Can't believe more people haven't posted!


Perhaps, we could benefit from reading the teachers' thoughts (and don't go all bloody schmaltzy either!!! :sick: )

The demos who have posted, predominantly male, seem to have some ideas but are not really sure they are doing what a good demo does.

So, Teach...

What makes a good demo?!?!??!?!?!?!!???????????

CJ
14th-May-2005, 12:40 AM
I might translate this for CJ, and one or two others I can think of, to mean..

"There's too much ***** here already for me to be ***** to wade through it."

:flower:

So, how would you translate this:

"What a w@nker."

under par
14th-May-2005, 01:14 AM
I was demo for the first time with Nigel at hipsters on Tuesday, was very nervous and didn't dance as well as i should of (although Nigel was very nice and said I was great - but I know i wasn't :sick: ). So I think the key (for female demos anyway) is relaxing and enjoying yourself while you demo and the rest should all fall into place!
After all the teachers wouldn't ask you if they didn't think you could do it!!!! :grin:


Well done I didn't realise I was dancing with a famous Hipsters demo the other night :worthy: ...................just as well it would have made me nervous :wink:

spindr
14th-May-2005, 01:25 AM
Q: What makes a good demo?
A: Wearing contrasting colours to the teacher, so that the class can see at a distance which is the demo's arm and which the teacher's.

SpinDr.

horsey_dude
14th-May-2005, 01:56 AM
I Demo'ed for years and, assuming what I was doing was good, the main thing is do what the teacher is saying exactly in time with what they are saying i.e.

Teacher say push and step away - you push and step away
they say pull you partner in side by side - you pull them in and stop

if you proceed through the move or the routine any faster or slower then what the teacher is saying then it won't make sense to the students watching.

I don't really agree with one of the earlier comments that the teacher is leading (I may have misinterpereted or misunderstood the point). When it comes time to spin for example I lead a spin of the teacher rather than the teacher spins herself and I follow and pretend to have lead it. If I start to lead the next part of the move before they are ready then they will just block or not follow so I wait and try again when the time seems right.

Some teachers like input into the class from their demo and some want none and you have to respect that (or get a good talking to later on). During the times I was demoing I had quite a lot of input into the routines (with some teachers) so if a move didn't go together then I could suggest a different move or exit from a move and the routine might change before the class.

If they are consistantly saying "take the left hand" when it should be the right you can mutter "right hand" out of the side of your mouth as well.....

HD

David Bailey
14th-May-2005, 07:20 AM
It helps to know your lefts and rights for leading, to aid the teachers explanation ( by whispered prompting ) as every thing they teach is opposite to what they are actually doing and its easy to forget which hand is doing what.
:yeah: As a leftie I wear my watch on my right hand, so if I demo I always say to the teacher "this is my RIGHT hand" at the start.

Mr Fitz
14th-May-2005, 11:18 AM
Slightly off thread but…

A couple of months ago after a Thursday class I was approached by a young lady for a dance. Things were going swimmingly, but half way through the dance she felt the need to ask if I was a beginner. Slightly taken aback by the question, (I thought that I was doing fairly well), I replied cautiously that I had been dancing a few months or so and perhaps didn’t regard myself as a complete “beginner”.

She then went on to clarify that she wasn’t concerned whether I was a beginner or not, in fact she was looking for someone of intermediate level. She had just moved up from the beginners, to the intermediate classes. She had found the class quite difficult, and there were a couple of moves that she didn’t get. She needed someone to help her. So coming to the point she asked if I had done the intermediate class.

Again slightly taken aback I replied that I had done the intermediate class. I went on further to explain that I had in fact been up on stage demo’ing with the teacher. I paused for some sort of recognition. There was none. Finally, I asked if she had not perhaps noticed me on stage.

“Erm…no”, she replied,

I picked up the shattered remains of my ego, put them in a box and made a mental note to buy some glue on the way home.

So in answer to your question, what makes a good demo, I reckon you have to be at least slightly noticeable. Perhaps canary yellow lycra, maybe a gorilla suit, or bring some kind of anti-aircraft searchlight and point it on yourself. :wink:

David Bailey
14th-May-2005, 11:59 AM
So coming to the point she asked if I had done the intermediate class.

Again slightly taken aback I replied that I had done the intermediate class. I went on further to explain that I had in fact been up on stage demo’ing with the teacher. I paused for some sort of recognition. There was none. Finally, I asked if she had not perhaps noticed me on stage.

“Erm…no”, she replied,
:rofl:

It's weird isn't it, you never notice the demo, you're always looking at the teacher. Even when you take your bow at the end... I've had that as well.

Being a demo doesn't get you the glamour, money or girls :tears:
(or maybe that's just me...)

foxylady
14th-May-2005, 12:27 PM
:rofl:

It's weird isn't it, you never notice the demo, you're always looking at the teacher. Even when you take your bow at the end... I've had that as well.



I find wearing outrageous tops, both in colour and cleavage, seems to get me noticed both on and off stage....... that and a dazzling smile, directed at the audience, and direct, encouraging, eye contact with members of the class as often as possible...


I have to say that since starting demo-ing, I have started watching how other do so, and am surprised by the fact that many tend not to smile or engage with the audience in any way.....


Foxy

MartinHarper
14th-May-2005, 02:05 PM
Demos have a specific set of skill requirements - like any good lead, their job is to make the follower comfortable and relaxed enough to be confident, amongst other things.

I suppose I could concede that a single female teacher is reliant on a decent demo. For single male teachers, I prefer that they just use a selection of women from the class, rather than a fixed demo. That's usually more enlightening for me.

David Bailey
14th-May-2005, 02:27 PM
I suppose I could concede that a single female teacher is reliant on a decent demo. For single male teachers, I prefer that they just use a selection of women from the class, rather than a fixed demo. That's usually more enlightening for me.
Possibly, in that the teacher is effectively giving both group and individual tuition, and that you can see how it's done with a less-than-expert partner.

Some male-taught salsa classes do it this way, rotating the follower just like the teacher were any other dancer - so it's more democratic in a sense.

On the other hand, you may never see the move well-demonstrated, so you may miss out on style tips, or "how to do it right" technique instead of "how to get through it".

Gadget
15th-May-2005, 07:59 PM
I would recommend the following: Smile. Remember the order of the moves. Don't embelish too much. Be clear and smooth with the timing. Do it the same way on every walk through and demo - especially foot placement.
But only having demoed a couple of times, I'm only speaking from a spectator's point of view.

bigdjiver
15th-May-2005, 11:36 PM
What makes a good demo? With some of our lady teachers one requisite would be nerves of steel.


After all the teachers wouldn't ask you if they didn't think you could do it!!!! :grin:My fourth worst Ceroc moment -

I arrived late at a beginner class, just as guys were rotating, and finished up head of the queue. I was invited onto the stage by teacher to demo. Apparantly the designated demo had failed to appear, and she was picking people from the class to fill-in.

I said I didn't know the moves, and she thought I was joking ... and she did not name them as we tried to dance three moves ...

David Bailey
15th-May-2005, 11:44 PM
My fourth worst Ceroc moment -

:rofl:
Please please please post 1st - 3rd!!

Zebra Woman
16th-May-2005, 08:07 PM
I prefer the demo to be female and the teacher to be male. Partly because the learning of moves is mostly directed at the men. Plus the male teacher would also freestyle as a lead most of the time so the moves they teach are moves they actually use every time they dance. That said, some of my favourite Ceroc teachers are female (Emma Pettitt for one).

If the teacher and demo are both female then I like the follower to have a skirt on, or at least look more feminine than the lead. Saves a lot of confusion IMO.

While we're on skirts....
I like a bit of humour from the demo. The funniest prank I saw was when the teacher female was teaching from the following position. The male demo was supposed to lead a star jump. Instead he surprised her by lifting her really high and sitting her on his shoulders.

He ended up with his head completely inside her small white skirt. I'm not even going to mention the underwear... :really:

Ideally I like the demo to be female and really inspiring - like Nina, Lily or my favourite of all Catriona Wiles. She demoed WCS and the Hustle for Steve Neeren and Paul Warden at Bognor in January and was a total inspiration to watch, always in the background but she had her moments when she really shone :worthy: And a GSOH too. I like the demo to have a voice sometimes and explain what they are doing or how a move is feeling.

ZW :flower: ...going to hide now

Sparkles
17th-May-2005, 12:19 PM
ZW :flower: ...going to hide now
No need to hide, I thought that was a great post :clap:.

I think it's hard for demos to post on this thread.
I don't demo on a regular basis, but sometimes I have been fortunate enough to be on the stage.
I think Gadget has covered a lot of what I think's good already:


Smile. Remember the order of the moves. Don't embelish too much. Be clear and smooth with the timing. Do it the same way on every walk through and demo - especially foot placement.

I think one of the most important things for a demo is to concentrate. I find my brain works at least twice as hard as my body when I'm on stage, trying to do exactly what is required of me by the teacher and then trying to remember exactly what I did so I can repeat it in exactly the same way the next time.

A good rapport between teacher and demo is important. If you make it look like you're comfortable (even if you're feeling nervous :sick: ) not only with the moves but also with each other then I think that puts the class more at ease.

Look as if you're enjoying it (even though it's hard to smile through all that concentrating), it's almost like you're saying to the class "it's OK to have fun while you're doing this".

Be well-presented and 'professional-looking', I think this helps but others may disagree with me.

Don't encroach too much. Being the 'bossy boots' :rolleyes: that I am it's sometimes so tempting to join in with the teacher, but the demo is NOT the teacher and should keep their mouths firmly closed (IMO) unless there is a particular style point that the teacher may have omitted (as sometimes it's hard to cover things from the opposite point of view); and then I think it's best to say it quietly to the teacher and then only mention it to the class if given an opening by the teacher to do so. If too many people are giving instructions it can be very confusing for the class.

If no-one noticed I had been demoing (except my close friends :flower: ) I don't think I'd be worried, and I think that would confirm I had done my job. As a demo you are (IMO) a 'partner with whom the teacher can demonstrate the moves', as long as you do this and people learn I don't think it matters if you then get recognised or not. Indeed sometimes I find getting recognised can be a bad thing, as new people are often reluctant to dance with the teacher or demo as they feel intimidated - I'd rather not be remembered as the demo and be asked to dance like everyone else! Also, it should be remembered that the ladies will be mostly looking at the lady on stage, and the guys will be looking at the man - so if a lady doesn't remember a male demo then it may just be that she was concentrating on her moves so much she wasn't looking at the guy on stage at all.

S. x

Purple Sparkler
17th-May-2005, 12:49 PM
From the point of view of someone who is just a member of the class (though I'd love to be a demo if and when I'm good enough), the best demos are the ones who, as has I think already been said, are relaxed and just enjoying themselves. If they have the confidence to laugh it off should they or the teacher go wrong, all to the good.

And I have to add that one of the things that makes a terrific demo is the same for what makes a terrific teacher- the willingness to dance with as many people as possible after the class- and not just their friends- they get this absolutely right at ISH, which is by far my favourite Ceroc night.

Too often, teachers and demos disappear off after the lesson and if they do dance, dance with the Well Established Cerocers at a particular venue. Or, in one case (naming no names), they only dance with each other. That, as a class member, really annoys me.

Purple Sparkler
17th-May-2005, 03:44 PM
To whoever just gave me rep for the previous post- I'd do a carnation in my buttonhole except I don't have a carnation OR A buttonhole. But assuming you're the demo, I'll gladly come and be identified as a Newbie Forumite (that is if I don't chicken out). It's just a shame I don't have my purple sparkly top on me (coming straight from work).

Bill
18th-May-2005, 12:05 PM
Too often, teachers and demos disappear off after the lesson and if they do dance, dance with the Well Established Cerocers at a particular venue. Or, in one case (naming no names), they only dance with each other. That, as a class member, really annoys me.


Glad to say that doesn't happen up here. Lorna and Lisa make a point of dancing with as many folk ( men and women) as they can. What I have noticed though is that the more experienced dancers tend to get to the demo, teachers and anyone they consider to be 'good' first so the less expereinced dancers can be left behind - especially the new women, at least until they build up the confidence to go and ask them men to dance.

The only time I've dashed away early is when I was studying for some exams and had to head home to do some revision.

Chicklet
18th-May-2005, 12:08 PM
- The only time I've dashed away early is when I was studying for some exams and had to head home to do some revision.

it's hell being 16 isn't it Bill?

David Bailey
18th-May-2005, 12:19 PM
What I have noticed though is that the more experienced dancers tend to get to the demo, teachers and anyone they consider to be 'good' first
:blush: Guilty... And I agree that it's a bit unfair.

On the other hand:
- Teachers are not taxi dancers, they work hard, it's not unreasonable to let them have a bit of fun dancing. If they're in "teach" mode all night, every night, they can lose the fun out of it.
- Similarly, demos are employed to be demos, not taxi dancers. They don't even get paid, except in vouchers, so they have even less obligation to dance with beginners.

Having said that, I agree that the best teachers will take time after the class to talk to and dance with new starters. If nothing else, from simple self-interest, to keep the class successful by getting more attendees. But let's not be too hard on them if they decide to take some time for fun dancing, like us normal mortals...

Purple Sparkler
18th-May-2005, 12:39 PM
Having said that, I agree that the best teachers will take time after the class to talk to and dance with new starters. If nothing else, from simple self-interest, to keep the class successful by getting more attendees. But let's not be too hard on them if they decide to take some time for fun dancing, like us normal mortals...

I'm convinced the above is why ISH has become so successful. I take your point about the Demos and Teachers not being obliged to dance, but they should do at least SOME socialising to make people feel welcome.

And I think one reason why the more advanced dancers get the demo/teachers on some nights is that they're the only ones who feel confident enough to go and ask them for a dance, even though we all know it's 'bad form to say no at Ceroc'. It took me nearly a year to get the courage up to ask people. But that was partly because the first few people I asked actually did turn me down flat.

foxylady
18th-May-2005, 12:42 PM
:blush: Guilty... And I agree that it's a bit unfair.

On the other hand:
- Teachers are not taxi dancers, they work hard, it's not unreasonable to let them have a bit of fun dancing. If they're in "teach" mode all night, every night, they can lose the fun out of it.
- Similarly, demos are employed to be demos, not taxi dancers. They don't even get paid, except in vouchers, so they have even less obligation to dance with beginners.

Having said that, I agree that the best teachers will take time after the class to talk to and dance with new starters. If nothing else, from simple self-interest, to keep the class successful by getting more attendees. But let's not be too hard on them if they decide to take some time for fun dancing, like us normal mortals...

I think the success of ISH (because its a pertinent example and it wasn't successful for a very long time) is due to the fact that Simon when not on stage believes he is being paid to be the teacher for the whole evening not just the class. He very rarely dances with the same woman twice, he 'works' the room, he learns and remembers the regulars names, he creates an atmosphere that people want to be part of - even extending it into the bar afterwards, circulating and chatting to everyone.

There are other teachers that do this, but not many I have come across in the London area.

When I demo with him although I am not being paid in the same way, I consider it part of my job to be the female counterpart, working the room, encouraging new faces, dancing with anyone... I have found that people really appreciate it, and far from being tedious is actually part of the fun of the evening. Its just a different sort of fun.

Taxi's are normal mortals too btw... (and get far less remuneration than the teacher, and depending on how often they dance, about the same as the demo)

If I want to dance just with my favourites :blush: I go to another venue....

Foxy

foxylady
18th-May-2005, 12:48 PM
And I think one reason why the more advanced dancers get the demo/teachers on some nights is that they're the only ones who feel confident enough to go and ask them for a dance, even though we all know it's 'bad form to say no at Ceroc'. It took me nearly a year to get the courage up to ask people. But that was partly because the first few people I asked actually did turn me down flat.

Which is why it is important for the teacher (and demo) to seek people out and ask them IMHO...

(and :hug: being turned down - its never nice..... many many threads on the subject...)

Sparkles
18th-May-2005, 02:36 PM
- Teachers are not taxi dancers, they work hard, it's not unreasonable to let them have a bit of fun dancing. If they're in "teach" mode all night, every night, they can lose the fun out of it.

Some issues here:

"Teachers are not taxi dancers, they work hard" - I hope this is not implying that taxi dancers don't work hard?
For the teachers it's their job! Yes, they should be able to have fun, but they're being paid. In my mind that not only includes teaching the beginners' and intermediates' (and in some cases the advanced) classes but also talking to the punters and helping them after the class if they need it and social dancing with them, offering encouragement, tips and boosting confidence.
Who says dancing with beginners isn't fun! I know many teachers, demos and taxi dancers that get a kick out of helping people improve their dancing - and where would we be without them?!
Few teachers, from what I have seen, teach "all night, every night", and so if it's social dancing with their favourite partners (and not dancing with beginners) that they're after to 'keep the fun in it' then there are plenty of different dancing venues they can go to and enjoy exactly that on nights when they're not teaching.


- Similarly, demos are employed to be demos, not taxi dancers. They don't even get paid, except in vouchers, so they have even less obligation to dance with beginners.

I agree with this to an extent, but I also agree with Foxy that the atmosphere at a venue can be greatly improved if the demo takes time out, in the same way as the teacher, to offer help and advice and general fun with freestyle dancing. When I demo I treat it exactly the same way as any social dancing night, I dance with the people that ask me (unless I have a good reason why I'm not dancing at that particular moment) and if I find myself lacking a partner I ask someone. I admit, however, this may not be as pro-active as it perhaps could be.

S. x

Purple Sparkler
18th-May-2005, 02:58 PM
Which is why it is important for the teacher (and demo) to seek people out and ask them IMHO...

Couldn't agree more! Plus it's always nice to be asked to dance, instead of always doing the asking.


(and :hug: being turned down - its never nice..... many many threads on the subject...)

Which is why I only do it when I'm knackered and need to sit down, or someone else has already asked me. But that's all I'm saying about that. We're talking about demoing, not turning people down, and I don't want to send the thread off at a tangent.

David Bailey
18th-May-2005, 03:40 PM
Some issues here:"Teachers are not taxi dancers, they work hard" - I hope this is not implying that taxi dancers don't work hard?and
Taxi's are normal mortals too btw... (and get far less remuneration than the teacher, and depending on how often they dance, about the same as the demo)
Of course not - taxis are wonderful, and I want more of them, with more training, in the intermediate classes. I've said as much (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=120123&postcount=10), and repeated it (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=120780&postcount=16) and re-repeated it (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=120839&postcount=21)

But, it is explicitly the taxi-dancer job to dance with beginners, and it's not explicitly the teacher / demo's job to do so. Doesn't mean taxis shouldn't / can't teach in a freestyle, or that teachers / shouldn't / couldn't dance with beginners in a freestyle. And, as has been pointed out, the good ones can and do rise above their "demarcation" lines to add a bit more in. No disagreement.

All I'm saying is, they don't have to.



For the teachers it's their job! Yes, they should be able to have fun, but they're being paid. In my mind that not only includes teaching the beginners' and intermediates' (and in some cases the advanced) classes but also talking to the punters and helping them after the class if they need it and social dancing with them, offering encouragement, tips and boosting confidence.

Good point - these uppity teachers, they should do what they're told, and be grateful they have a job, there's plenty more who'd like your opportunities you know... I agree, again - but no, that's not AFAIK explicitly in their job description. Maybe it should be.


Who says dancing with beginners isn't fun! I know many teachers, demos and taxi dancers that get a kick out of helping people improve their dancing - and where would we be without them?!

True, but I'm going to stick to the controversial view that dancing with beginners all night is not as much overall relaxing fun as dancing with advanced dancers all night. :whistle:

Of course it's rewarding, but sometimes you may also want to kick back, relax and just go for it...



Few teachers, from what I have seen, teach "all night, every night", and so if it's social dancing with their favourite partners (and not dancing with beginners) that they're after to 'keep the fun in it' then there are plenty of different dancing venues they can go to and enjoy exactly that on nights when they're not teaching.


Maybe, but the best teachers find themselves in such demand, that the amount of pure "social dance" time they have is limited. One very good and popular teacher I know made this very point to me yesterday; finding time to just dance with friends is a serious problem for that teacher.

Trish
18th-May-2005, 03:50 PM
When I demo with him although I am not being paid in the same way, I consider it part of my job to be the female counterpart, working the room, encouraging new faces, dancing with anyone... I have found that people really appreciate it, and far from being tedious is actually part of the fun of the evening. Its just a different sort of fun.

Taxi's are normal mortals too btw... (and get far less remuneration than the teacher, and depending on how often they dance, about the same as the demo)

If I want to dance just with my favourites :blush: I go to another venue....

Foxy

Thanks for that Foxy, as a taxi, I appreciate it; have some rep. I know some demos that only do the demoing, and then are positively snooty with beginners who pluck up the courage to ask them to dance, and it always makes me feel rather sad for the beginners. If these people look as though they don't want to be there when they dance with the beginners, then to my mind, that's really going to put them off. Thankfully you also get a lot of demos who do work hard and are much more gracious, kind and smily. After all, as you said, the taxis are paid about the same as the demos, it should be the case that they work as hard as each other making the night run smoothly for the newer dancers especially.

I'm with Gadget on this: the best demos smile, look like they're enjoying dancing, and follow/lead the moves as accurately as possible, with style but not so much it detracts from things.

This is only my opinion, from what I've seen - I'm scared now, in case I've incurred the wrath of all the demos out there!

Purple Sparkler
18th-May-2005, 03:51 PM
that's not AFAIK explicitly in their job description. Maybe it should be.

Hmm- have you read the thing about teaching Ceroc at the main website? One of the qualities it cites is willingness to dance with lots of people in the social after the class because "one dance with the teacher can make someone's night".



One very good and popular teacher I know made this very point to me yesterday; finding time to just dance with friends is a serious problem for that teacher.

*is now curious and wonders if it was who she thinks it was, given where David was last night*

David Bailey
18th-May-2005, 04:11 PM
Hmm- have you read the thing about teaching Ceroc at the main website?
Don't confuse the debate by providing the facts, I'm on a roll here...


*is now curious and wonders if it was who she thinks it was, given where David was last night*
Ah, but I never said by which communications mechanism the information was provided... :whistle:

Note also the total lack of any gender-identification. I'm not totally silly... :)

Bill
19th-May-2005, 11:55 AM
as you said, the taxis are paid about the same as the demos, it should be the case that they work as hard as each other making the night run smoothly for the newer dancers especially.




Taxi dancers and demos are paid ????? Where about ? Is this an isolated case down south?? Never heard of anyone being paid. I assumed that the 'honour' of being a taxi dancer was sufficient to do it for nothing and the fact that they get into other nights free.

Are all taxi dancers and demos paid ?? if so should all Scottish 'staff' be asking Frank for some cash ?????? :D :whistle: :wink:

Purple Sparkler
19th-May-2005, 12:03 PM
Taxi dancers and demos are paid ????? Where about ? Is this an isolated case down south?? Never heard of anyone being paid. I assumed that the 'honour' of being a taxi dancer was sufficient to do it for nothing and the fact that they get into other nights free.

Are all taxi dancers and demos paid ?? if so should all Scottish 'staff' be asking Frank for some cash ?????? :D :whistle: :wink:

No, they're paid in the whole 'you get in other places for free' way down here too. Which, given the amount of money I would save by being able to go for free, is why I'm learning the man's part so I can apply to be a Taxi dancer.

Bill
19th-May-2005, 01:02 PM
No, they're paid in the whole 'you get in other places for free' way down here too. Which, given the amount of money I would save by being able to go for free, is why I'm learning the man's part so I can apply to be a Taxi dancer.


Well good luck PS. I taxi-ed up here for several years and really enjoyed it. Was also a nice way to meet new dancers although I'm hopeless with names so forgot most names the following week. :sick:

Rebecca
19th-May-2005, 01:18 PM
Thanks for that Foxy, as a taxi, I appreciate it; have some rep. I know some demos that only do the demoing, and then are positively snooty with beginners who pluck up the courage to ask them to dance, and it always makes me feel rather sad for the beginners. If these people look as though they don't want to be there when they dance with the beginners, then to my mind, that's really going to put them off. Thankfully you also get a lot of demos who do work hard and are much more gracious, kind and smily. After all, as you said, the taxis are paid about the same as the demos, it should be the case that they work as hard as each other making the night run smoothly for the newer dancers especially.

I'm with Gadget on this: the best demos smile, look like they're enjoying dancing, and follow/lead the moves as accurately as possible, with style but not so much it detracts from things.

This is only my opinion, from what I've seen - I'm scared now, in case I've incurred the wrath of all the demos out there!


Slightly concerned to which category I belong Trish - hopefully the latter :grin: :D :nice: :na: (assortment of smiles just in case)

Rebecca x (fishing obviously)

Purple Sparkler
19th-May-2005, 01:31 PM
Well good luck PS. I taxi-ed up here for several years and really enjoyed it. Was also a nice way to meet new dancers although I'm hopeless with names so forgot most names the following week. :sick:

Thanks for the good luck wishes, Bill!

I'm going to try very hard to remember peoples' names as I know how much it meant- and still means- to me when they do. Will have to ask Simon what his secret is- it only took him one try to remember mine, and some people at Ceroc I've known for over a year and they STILL get it wrong (I get Ellie, or Helen, or Eleanor- drives me up the wall! :mad: ).

drathzel
19th-May-2005, 02:04 PM
Well good luck PS. I taxi-ed up here for several years and really enjoyed it. Was also a nice way to meet new dancers although I'm hopeless with names so forgot most names the following week. :sick:

Oh the carniage must have been dreadfull all those women you danced with who thought "i'm the special one" come back the following week to you not even knowing their name......... you hussy!!! :rofl:

Trish
19th-May-2005, 02:11 PM
Taxi dancers and demos are paid ????? Where about ? Is this an isolated case down south?? Never heard of anyone being paid. I assumed that the 'honour' of being a taxi dancer was sufficient to do it for nothing and the fact that they get into other nights free.

Are all taxi dancers and demos paid ?? if so should all Scottish 'staff' be asking Frank for some cash ?????? :D :whistle: :wink:

Sorry for the confusion Bill, I meant paid in admit ones! I wish we were paid in cash sometimes though!

Trish
19th-May-2005, 02:15 PM
Slightly concerned to which category I belong Trish - hopefully the latter :grin: :D :nice: :na: (assortment of smiles just in case)

Rebecca x (fishing obviously)

Of course the latter - you often dance with beginners, and are always friendly to them! I won't mention who I was talking about, it's not fair, and you might not know them anyway.

Stuart M
19th-May-2005, 02:29 PM
Oh the carniage...
carniage n. - any motorway pile-up involving a Funfair...

David Bailey
19th-May-2005, 03:08 PM
carniage n. - any motorway pile-up involving a Funfair...
Like the sig...

Lory
23rd-June-2005, 02:40 PM
I've read this thread though with interest, as I'm demo'ing on Monday and these are the points i'm picking up on! :grin:


the key is relaxing and enjoying yourself while you demo and the rest should all fall into place!


Relax! Ok, a nifty Jack and coke should help with that :D


be supportive, have a laugh at your own expense and get the footwork right are the keys i think...
There's footwork? :eek:

Ah yes, thats where the 'laugh at your own expense' bit must come in! ;)



A: Wearing contrasting colours to the teacher, so that the class can see at a distance which is the demo's arm and which the teacher's.
Russel, I'm wearing sparkly turquiose, don't wear the same as me! :devil:



and a dazzling smile, directed at the audience, and direct, encouraging, eye contact with members of the class as often as possible... Clean teeth with pearl drops! :D



Smile. Remember the order of the moves. Don't embelish too much. Be clear and smooth with the timing. Do it the same way on every walk through and demo - especially foot placement.


Back to 'laughing at one's own expense again'! :rofl:


A good rapport between teacher and demo is important. If you make it look like you're comfortable


Hey Russel baby :yum: how high did you say that stage was? :sick:

Purple Sparkler
23rd-June-2005, 02:48 PM
I've read this thread though with interest, as I'm demo'ing on Monday and these are the points i'm picking up on! :grin:



Hey, good luck Lory! :clap: :clap: *jealous jealous jealous and wishes she was good enough to be a demo*

David Bailey
6th-October-2006, 02:27 PM
From this post:

:yeah: Round here we seem to be blessed with demos who are pretty young things with sulky or bored witless expressions (praps they think this makes them look cool?) They can barely be bothered to step through the moves - it all looks such an effort.

On the all too rare occasion when we have an older demonstrator (ie 30+), they invariably look interested, smile and inject some style. They even appear to be enjoying themselves.

I know which type inspires me.
I was about to launch a thread entitled "what makes a good demo", but then I found this one :)

I would also say now, that there are a couple of extra skills for a demo:

Always be aware of the position to the audience - if you're trying to demonstrate some clever behine-the-arm thing, it's no good if your arm is not visible, so sometimes a discreet shuffle-around is helpful.
Take Big Clear Steps, even if you don't dance like that normally. Exxaggerate the size of the movements to make them clear, where appropriate.
Smile, even when everyone gets it wrong and can't count to 4 ("4 ladies on" etc)

Blueshoes
6th-October-2006, 03:19 PM
I think a male demo has to be a "passive lead", using the terminology from the "active / passive" thread.

So you've got to do exactly what you should, when you should, but be aware that you are, effectively, being lead. Although always bearing in mind the fact that you may have to very occasionally supply a real lead if required

This combination should then give the (female) teacher confidence that you'll do it right every time, and that even if she makes a mistake or forgets a signal, you'll fill the gap.

Maybe I'm biased, but I think a male demo has a much harder time of it than a female demo, simply because of the subtleties of these requirements.

:yeah:

Very well put. I also think it's harder to be a male demo as a lady can be led through the moves by a good teacher, which is what usually happens on the dance floor. Of course the female demo must look good and use her own stlye whilst this is going on as well.

A female teacher can't lead a male demo in the same way so he has to learn the moves more positively and be comfortable enough that he can do them with some style and purpose. This is fine for beginners moves but bear in mind the male demo has to be able to pick up and learn to lead four intermediate moves in a matter of minutes.

The time I felt most uncomfortable in a class was being taught by a lady doing the man's moves with a female demo....:(

MartinHarper
6th-October-2006, 03:46 PM
I also think it's harder to be a male demo as (snip yet more reasons)

With all these problems, why would anyone bother having a teacher "following" with a demo "leading"?