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marty_baby
12th-May-2005, 01:20 PM
Hiya All,

Advise pls - RE:Creating a "Frame... lead/Compression...

We did a "nigel and nina" class last month in Bristol, and it blew me away! :nice: The Concept of Frame, awareness of weighting, Compression, ....that ethereal connection between partners... admazing.....! :nice:

I started doing beginners tango classes, in a bid to improve all the above, and to incorperate it into my Leroc...


A few questions if I may:
-----------------------------
(I know this is not directly related to Leroc/Ceroc dancing, but the principles of frame etc are pertinent I believe. I also hope that some of you have done this as well, and that you can offer advice in terms of "how a Leroc'er would make the transition to the Tango style." )



1. Frame leading
* Is the frame suppose to be relaxed, rather than rigid?
* Is the lead suppose to be light, rather than the lady being "carted around" in a rigid frame? (Ie more a case of "invading the partner's space, and the partner moves to maintain the spacing - as opposed to the lady being "carted around" in a rigid frame!)


2. Developing an effective lead....
* As a beginner, is it a good idea to "over emphasise" the lead, and tone it down as you develope? Or is it a Bad idea - ie creating a bad habit from the word go?
* To Paint the scene in the Tango Beginners class, blind leading the blind.... Blokes who can't lead, ladies who can't follow... :rofl: The 1st intro class was good - with a few intermediates in the class - Beginners had a chance to build up a sence of rythym etc. In the 2nd class however, all beginners... everyone's rythym was off, including mine... it was carnage! :rolleyes: )

* Any advice on any of the aboves??? :flower:



All the Best
Martin
:cheers:


PS
2 More questions - These are "Tango only" questions while I'm here really... Please ignore if not relevant at all to this forum, and if you are not inclined to answer! :nice:

3. Eye contact?
* I've always been to to maintain eye contact in Leroc, helps communicate moves, and well, is more friendly.
* Works with some parnters in Tango, others fall apart. (It could be the close hold etc!)
* With tango, is it always "no eye contact... leading is all in the feel"??


4. No laughter?
* With Leroc, making the partner laugh is, well, nice....
* Is it however a no no with Tango???
* Most partners fell to pieces at the beginners class, when I did this!

Gadget
12th-May-2005, 02:45 PM
1. Frame leading
* Is the frame suppose to be relaxed, rather than rigid?
* Is the lead suppose to be light, rather than the lady being "carted around" in a rigid frame? (Ie more a case of "invading the partner's space, and the partner moves to maintain the spacing - as opposed to the lady being "carted around" in a rigid frame!)You need to be able to increase and decrease the pressure/rigidity. How can you increase from an already iron-like frame?

marty_baby
13th-May-2005, 11:45 AM
Hiya Gadget,

Thats exactly my thinking!

I really don't want to start leading via "pull & push" in the beginners class - ie bad tango habits from word go!... I'll not learn that vital "lead by frame/compression" by doing that!....

Doc Iain
13th-May-2005, 11:54 AM
Keep the tension in the back of the shoulder girdle (by the scapulae) and thaqt way there is plenty of "laxity" in the frame but still keeping it a frame... if that makes sense?
Don't over emphasise the lead...once you fully understand what you are trying to do and you "get the lead" then i personally found that its a bit like riding a bike.... neadless to say each new move teaches you a different aspect to leading and you may have to adapt your style of lead accordingly... its a constantly evolving process, but getting the right tension as a starting point is essential... IMHO

spindr
13th-May-2005, 12:33 PM
I also hope that some of you have done this as well, and that you can offer advice in terms of "how a Leroc'er would make the transition to the Tango style."

The best advice I can suggest is to listen to your tango teacher -- at least at the classes I've been to the lead isn't like a traditional swing/jive dance frame.

I am told that it's bad manners in tango to lead the lady with your arms -- and that the lead is rather indicated by the orientation of your chest -- not something I was familiar with as a jiver.

And also it's going to depend on the style of your tango dancing and how much of an "A" frame you make leaning in towards your partner.

And as always, it depends on your partner, I know one lady who dances likes to feel pulled in to the embrace, so that there's shall we say significant degree of compression between the upper bodies. Not a style I would necessarily use for beginners.

SpinDr.

David Bailey
13th-May-2005, 01:44 PM
I am told that it's bad manners in tango to lead the lady with your arms -- and that the lead is rather indicated by the orientation of your chest -- not something I was familiar with as a jiver.
Totally agree for tango, or at least that's what I was told as well.
However, "leading with the chest" is fine when you're touching body-to-body, which in tango I believe you are. But in MJ, you're generally not that close, so chest-leads are a little difficult. And can be, ahem, misinterpreted as well.

I think leading in MJ is with the entire body; you kind of invite the partner to, say, do a return by the arm, sure, but it's also the posture, your foot positions, the momentum of the move, and even your eyes / head that give these indications.

I did a "Lead with your head" exercise a few years ago, it's amazing how much you can communicate with just nods and eye expressions, if you have a good follower...

ElaineB
15th-May-2005, 11:03 AM
Totally agree for tango, or at least that's what I was told as well.
However, "leading with the chest" is fine when you're touching body-to-body, which in tango I believe you are. But in MJ, you're generally not that close, so chest-leads are a little difficult. And can be, ahem, misinterpreted as well.

I think leading in MJ is with the entire body; you kind of invite the partner to, say, do a return by the arm, sure, but it's also the posture, your foot positions, the momentum of the move, and even your eyes / head that give these indications.

I did a "Lead with your head" exercise a few years ago, it's amazing how much you can communicate with just nods and eye expressions, if you have a good follower...

Just to correct the leading with the chest bit, in Tango you do not have to actually touch the upper part of the body. However, the follower does have to follow the leaders movements......if I am in very close contact with my partners body, I will close my eyes. If you have a very good leader, it is absolute bliss.

Elaine

marty_baby
18th-May-2005, 10:18 PM
Hiya Guys,

Just a quick Email to say "....2nd wed beginners class went great!"

Thanks for all your advice above. Really helped. :nice: Doc Iain's "....Keep the tension in the back of the shoulder girdle ..." was advice worth its weight in gold....


The Class itself:
-----------------
Junior teacher had a go tonight, with an assistant. Her teaching was alot more "nuts and bolts." Worked for me! ;D

Also, seems the class as a whole is improving, myself included!

Very happy!



NB:
-----
Next week I'm in London with work. Will try to do WCS class in Ealing on Tuesday, and also a Beginners Tango class while I'm there.

*** Any advice on a good "Beginners tango" class in the London Area???

Amir
18th-May-2005, 10:48 PM
Hi Martin. Thanks for your pm. Here is my opinion on your questions;


Hiya All,

Advise pls - RE:Creating a "Frame... lead/Compression...

We did a "nigel and nina" class last month in Bristol, and it blew me away! :nice: The Concept of Frame, awareness of weighting, Compression, ....that ethereal connection between partners... admazing.....! :nice:

I started doing beginners tango classes, in a bid to improve all the above, and to incorperate it into my Leroc...


A few questions if I may:
-----------------------------
(I know this is not directly related to Leroc/Ceroc dancing, but the principles of frame etc are pertinent I believe. I also hope that some of you have done this as well, and that you can offer advice in terms of "how a Leroc'er would make the transition to the Tango style." )



1. Frame leading
* Is the frame suppose to be relaxed, rather than rigid?
* Is the lead suppose to be light, rather than the lady being "carted around" in a rigid frame? (Ie more a case of "invading the partner's space, and the partner moves to maintain the spacing - as opposed to the lady being "carted around" in a rigid frame!)



2. Developing an effective lead....
* As a beginner, is it a good idea to "over emphasise" the lead, and tone it down as you develope? Or is it a Bad idea - ie creating a bad habit from the word go?
* To Paint the scene in the Tango Beginners class, blind leading the blind.... Blokes who can't lead, ladies who can't follow... :rofl: The 1st intro class was good - with a few intermediates in the class - Beginners had a chance to build up a sence of rythym etc. In the 2nd class however, all beginners... everyone's rythym was off, including mine... it was carnage! :rolleyes: )

* Any advice on any of the aboves??? :flower:





All the Best
Martin
:cheers:


PS
2 More questions - These are "Tango only" questions while I'm here really... Please ignore if not relevant at all to this forum, and if you are not inclined to answer! :nice:

3. Eye contact?
* I've always been to to maintain eye contact in Leroc, helps communicate moves, and well, is more friendly.
* Works with some parnters in Tango, others fall apart. (It could be the close hold etc!)
* With tango, is it always "no eye contact... leading is all in the feel"??





4. No laughter?
* With Leroc, making the partner laugh is, well, nice....
* Is it however a no no with Tango???
* Most partners fell to pieces at the beginners class, when I did this!


(written in a state of fatigue. the following is not intentionally cryptic.)

1. Frame rigid or relaxed?
A frame is never rigid, but it can be so 'held' that it hardly moves. You can use next to no force to lead a movement or you can use a lot, and you want to get good at doing both and everything in between and choose the most appropriate force for the movement (not the move) you are leading. Each move is compromised of several movements, so the force and resistance you apply may change several times throughout. You can dance the same move and apply different amounts of resistance at different places and thereby create very different dynamics. To start with just get good at the dynamic the teacher is showing for any move you learn, and err on the side of rigidity as most beginners do not have a strong sense of frame.

It can be confusing because you will see advanced dancers moving their frame around a lot and even leading with their arms, but to start with you need to learn to keep it simple and still, or you may never develop a sense of placement and connection.

2. Emphasizing Leads
As a beginner or when dancing with a beginner you can over emphasize a lead by being extra clear with the pathway your arms moving in jive or the direction your frame is moving in tango, but not by adding force. Most beginners use too much force, so if anything use less force but try and make clearer pathways with your arms. A good teacher will tell you what they are, or you will find from trial and error which pathways allow confusion to your partner.

3. Eye contact
In social tango the lead is all in the feel. You might make occasional eye contact but you will rarely hold it. Half the fun is in being such a close embrace it is impossible to make eye contact. But I don't believe there are or should be rules about these things.

4. Laughing
It is probably frowned apon at some tango venues. I think of dancing as a medium of self expression, so I would never tell someone not to laugh or cause laughter if thats what they feel like doing. But since most tangos are so serious, and if you look up some lyrics of old tangos you will see what I mean, it can be incongruent to burst out laughing. Milonga on the other hand, which is related to tango, is much more joyous.




My view point in general is not to look for rules, but simply look for more options to achieve your aims. There is always more than one option, and the more you know off, the more likely you will choose an efficient, creative and exciting one.

Good luck in your journey.

marty_baby
19th-May-2005, 09:10 AM
Hiya Amir,

Thanks so much for taking the time to enlighten me! :nice:

....Whenever anyone says "tango"... I always think of you and Kate in Brighton!... absolute magic on the dance floor! :worthy:

Martin :nice: