Bristol Leroc 2002 Competition

[Gus]

Just noticed that the video has gone on sale for the LeRoc 2002 champs ... but can't find the result anywhere. Does anyone know who won the major catgories? Does anyone know if any of the major competitors entered?

[Lou]

From John Gimber's LeRoc in Bristol website....

Dance With A Stranger
1. Ebby Salem & Jennie Slade (Bristol)
2. Simon Bowker (Bristol) & Margaret ? (Bath)
3. Simon Arundel (Bristol) & Sarah Marsden-Booth

Intermediates Freestyle
1. Elliot ? & partner
2. Ray & Jane Godman
3. Simon Arundel (Bristol) & Alison Williams (Cardiff)

Advanced Freestyle
1. Graham LeClerc & Sarah Johnson
2. Simon Bowker (Bristol) & Jennie Harrison (Bristol)
3. Graham Weeks (Bristol) & Jennie Slade (Bristol)

Showcase
1. Graham LeClerc & Sarah Johnson
2. Graeme Puckett(Bath) & Anne Peskett (Bath)
3. Ash Nazir & Tracy Clayton

[Article By: Graham Weeks]

[Gus]

Sooooo ... in DWAS and Advanced was there anyone who got placed who wasn't LeRoc?

[Lou]

I dunno... I wasn't there! *lol*

[Bill]

Originally posted by Lou
From John Gimber's LeRoc in Bristol website....

Intermediates Freestyle
1. Elliot ? & partner
2. Ray & Jane Godman
3. Simon Arundel (Bristol) & Alison Williams (Cardiff)

[Article By: Graham Weeks] Ah.so the young lad Elliot strikes again ! :D Better move on up to Advanced now and let the otehrs have a chance Elliot. Then again....there's far too much competition already...so on second thoughts maybe stay in the Intermediate for a while yet :what: :wink: :na:

[Gus]

Originally posted by Bill
Ah.so the young lad Elliot strikes again ! :

Ahhhh ... but was it THE Elliot? ..... and does it seem like he really doesn't have a surname?

[TheTramp]

It was 'THE' Elliot. I was there.

Shame that they couldn't even get the name of his partner either!!

Steve

[Gus]

Aha ... well it would seem that according to ettiquette young Elliot will be competing in the Advanced category from now on! Who will be the next stars in the Intermediate category?

The Advanced Category should be 'fun' this year. Rumour has is that a number of the southern (softie) Ceroc teachers will be entering ... should make it a fair old battle at Blackpool.

[TheTramp]

Rumour has is that a number of the southern (softie) Ceroc teachers will be entering
Interesting. Do you know which ones? Apart from Viktor & Lydia and Mick & Hannah (well, Mike Ellard & Linda, or Adam & Mandy - but I can't see either of those two entering competitions), I can't think of any teachers that would do particularly well. But of course, neither of those partnerships teach for ceroc anymore....

Steve

[Gus]

Originally posted by TheTramp

Interesting. Do you know which ones? Apart from Viktor & Lydia and Mick & Hannah (well, Mike Ellard & Linda, or Adam & Mandy - but I can't see either of those two entering competitions), I can't think of any teachers that would do particularly well. But of course, neither of those partnerships teach for ceroc anymore....

Steve

Why wouldn't Adam (I take it you mean Nathanson) enter?

I was thinking about Mick, H, Cliff, Roy, Marco ... and there must be some new kids on the block. Mind you, now that you mention it, can't remember many outstanding male teachers ... but thats probably because I've never seen any of them compete.

Of course there is also a rumour that V&L may enter .... so that means everyone can then just focus on 2nd and 3rd.....:wink:

[TheTramp]

Yeah. I did mean Adam Nathenson. I just don't see it as being his thing. I know Mandy did do quite well (3rd I believe) in the championships a few years ago, entering with James Geary. I still would be surprised if they entered.

Have to admit that I didn't think of Roy or H - I was thinking about the London teachers. They're a bit further west. It'd be interesting to see how they do, if they do enter.

There's been a rumour for the last two years that V&L were going to enter. I'm not sure that I see that happening either. They'd have nothing to gain - as you say, everyone would be expecting them to win hands down, and more to lose. If I was in their position, I'm not sure I'd want to enter. It's a bit like Nigel & Nina. Now that they've made their names, I couldn't see them ever entering a competition again. Of course, they're all going to enter now, and prove me wrong.

Steve

[CJ]

In fact a plan SO cunning you could pin a tail to it and call it a fox!!

BUT,

will they fall for it?

[Gus]

Originally posted by TheTramp

There's been a rumour for the last two years that V&L were going to enter. I'm not sure that I see that happening either. They'd have nothing to gain - as you say, everyone would be expecting them to win hands down, and more to lose. If I was in their position, I'm not sure I'd want to enter. Now that they've made their names, I couldn't see them ever entering a competition again
Steve

Well ... I had it on fairly good authority that V&L were entering Blackpool last year but an event the previous night meant they couldn't get there on time.

I really wish they would enter. I don't know if there is anyone out there good enough to challenge them but its a little strange having the UK Open Champs and not having the best dancers there. The Blackpool event is still head and shoulders above any other UK competition (IMHO) but it would give a real edge .... and it would be a great spectacle for all the spectators ... who last year were legion.

Must admit, I don't know if it would put anyone off entering, which would be a shame. If I ended up dancing next to them maybe I'd find it really intimidating but then again maybe its the type of incentive to move your dancing onto another plane....

[TheTramp]

I'd like to see them enter too. Found it strange that ceroc stopped teachers entering their competitions - 'pit yourselves against the best' - but we're going to stop a whole load of people actually entering.

As you say, it could inspire you to greater heights. Although, I'm sure that there are some people who would give up and not bother entering.

On another thought though. It'd be interesting to see how well they do. I've recently seen them doing 'cabarets' at a couple of venues, and both times haven't been particularly impressed. I've seen them dance much, much better, just in a normal dance venue, doing their thing in the corner. Is it the pressure of having all those people watching that means they don't perform that well? And if so, how would that reflect in the competition arena?

Steve

[Bill]

I can feel my dread of competitions coming on just at the thought of all these guys competing.:tears: :sick:

If I was dancing in the same round as V&L I'd be rooted to tthe spot knowing no-one - including the judges would be looking at anything we were doing :tears: I could dance like I've never dancd before ( ie really well......:sick: ) and I'd still be a mile behind dancers like V&L.

If I thought they and a bunch of other teachers were competing I'd have to move back down to Intermediate. Then there'd be the humiliation of not getting past the first round !:(

But it would be a great comp if they did all come up/down but as we've all said on other threads this does open up the debate about Advanced/Open etc..... I think in London they should introduce an open section and allow all their own teachers and professional or semi-professionals to enter if they wanted and leave the advanced for experienced but non-teacher and completely 'amateur' dancers.

Maybe hold on to my entry for a while yet !
:na:

[TheTramp]

I think in London they should introduce an open section and allow all their own teachers and professional or semi-professionals to enter if they wanted and leave the advanced for experienced but non-teacher and completely 'amateur' dancers
I've never quite understood the arguement between allowing and not-allowing teachers to enter.

It's not like those people who are teachers have received any special training that isn't available to anyone else. Most teachers don't have any training at all, and even the ceroc training is mostly geared towards how to teach, and not how to make you a better dancer.

In fact, (and this is a personal opinion, and doesn't by all mean include all), in a lot of cases, I really don't think that a lot of teachers are particularly good dancers. I'd back you against a lot of the teachers that I've seen Bill. Certainly south of London, with the exception of Graham LeClerc, you'd knock spots off any of the other regular teachers there.

Steve

[Gus]

Originally posted by TheTramp


It's not like those people who are teachers have received any special training that isn't available to anyone else. Most teachers don't have any training at all, and even the ceroc training is mostly geared towards how to teach, and not how to make you a better dancer.

Steve

Got to agree with Trampy again (this hurts!!) .... overall there is little corrolation between being a teacher and being the best dancers .... didn't think that Gilbert was a teacher.... Probably the best male dancer in the North West, Snake Hips Pete, isn't a teacher ... most of the aussies ain't teachers etc. etc.

The ones I'd be most concerned about competing against are the Beach Boogie/London set ... the likes of Alan Pratt etc. Alan was advanced level when I was still doing beginner classes .... him and a couple of his associates are really good dancers ..... I'd be far more worried about coming head to head with him than ANY (current) Ceroc teacher.

At the end of the day ... I hope most people, even those who enter the Advanced category, are there to enjoy the competing rather than focus on the winning. If thats the motivation then it doesn't matter who you compete against. Bill, dancers of teh standard of you, Brady, Sheena, FC etc. can all compete at Advanced level knowing full well that you deserve to be in that category and are not going to look out of place ... so ENJOY:waycool:

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gus
Of course there is also a rumour that V&L may enter .... so that means everyone can then just focus on 2nd and 3rd....Why?? That implies that Victor & Lydia are far better than any other dancers around. From what I've seen they are up there with the best, but are definitely not in a different class.

Sorry

David

[TheTramp]

Got to agree with Trampy again (this hurts!!)
Yeah. I'm in pain too!! :wink:


The ones I'd be most concerned about competing against are the Beach Boogie/London set ... the likes of Alan Pratt
Yeah. They should ban him from the blues competition next year!!

Steve

[Gus]

Originally posted by DavidB
Why?? That implies that Victor & Lydia are far better than any other dancers around. From what I've seen they are up there with the best, but are definitely not in a different class.

Sorry

David

Well ... I suppose I'm still in awe of them. I must admit that the Southern Leroc posse aren't any different to much of the pack and even the Ceroc London teachers are all beatable .... if I was taking it seriously its the Aussie/Kiwi contingent I'd be more bothered about. But, and I admit this is from a limited standpoint, I haven't seen anyone yet who can match V&L for their moves and dancing.

From what I saw at Blackpool, few of the finalists were able to interpret the music, relying instead on complex moves. If the judges go for the moves ... well, V&L have those by the bucket load. If they go for the dancing, then I've only seen a few competitors who achieve this..... IMHO of course ....

[Karen W]

I happened to be on a workshop at the weekend taught by Adam. I had no idea who he was until I met him. He must be Ceroc's biggest secret, the guy is just totally amazing.

What do others think, personally I think V & L are great, but Adam has the edge on them.

This is the guy you need to hope does not enter, although he was not teaching with Mandy I heard she was also a former OZ winner, (surprise surprise) and won the Ceroc Champs with Adam last year.

If you do not know Adam, I would recomend making the effort.

I would like him to do some workshops more in the midlands if anyone can arrange this?

Just when I thought there was no life after N & N.

ps, who is Alan Pratt? sounds like the kind of person I would like to dance with?

Karen

[Gus]

Originally posted by Karen W

I would like him to do some workshops more in the midlands if anyone can arrange this?


Well ... if you're in the Bedford area then you come under the Ceroc Central region which has a number of excellent teachers running a range of workshops ... especially Emma. Try www.cerocentral.com ... or something like that




ps, who is Alan Pratt? sounds like the kind of person I would like to dance with?

Karen

Alan is an extremely nice and very talented dancer ... but he's also firmly Southern based ..... think he hangs out at the Casbah and Ashtons .... but that info is probably about a yaer or two out of date.

[TheTramp]

Adam is a very good dancer, and an excellent teacher. At the ceroc champs last year a team choreographed by Mandy, with Adam dancing, won the team trophy. I doubt that many people on here will know who he is (yet), as apart from teaching at his own classes (cerocmetro), I've not heard of him teaching in other places. Whether this is about to change, you'll have to ask him about :)

Alan Pratt is a very good jive dancer, and as already said, an excellent blues dancer. With his partner, Sarah Bryen, they won the UK blues competition in the two years that it has been running (modesty forbids me from saying who was the runner up this year though :wink: ). He is usually dancing at St. Albans on a Thursday (where Adam will be teaching) if you fancy a trip down. It's not that far from Bedford. He also frequents Hipsters. He's the very tall bloke with the hooded look.

Hope this helps
Steve

Addition to Gus' info. He has been seen at Ashtons on the Saturday party night, very infrequently. I don't recall seeing him there on a Wednesday. He also doesn't go to Casbah very often - usually only if something is happening there (someones birthday or something). Although, due to obvious reasons, my information is also a year out of date!!

[Karen W]

Thank you, I have been to Emmas classes, and with all due respect, Emma is a complete amatuer by comparison.


I take it gus you have not actually seen Adam

Karen

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gus
If the judges go for the moves ... well, V&L have those by the bucket load. If they go for the dancing, then I've only seen a few competitors who achieve this...Without a doubt if a competition were judged purely on moves, then I can't see anyone beating Viktor. But there are so many other things that make up good dancing, and a whole different set of things that make up a good performance. I haven't seen anyone who is better than everyone else in more than one area.

Chance2Dance say that "Points will be awarded for Style, Presentation, Musical Interpretation and Dress". They don't mention anything about the number of moves! (Actually they don't mention anything about dancing...???)

There are so many different styles of Jive now. There are some dancers who are superb to some types of music, and completely uninspired by other genres. The judges will probably be looking for completely different things. It is anything but a forgone conclusion who would win.

David

[TheTramp]

Karen, I feel that's a bit unfair, and doesn't really show any of this due respect! I haven't been to any of Emma's classes. But she's a very good dancer. I'm sure she does a good job as a teacher.

Adam's style obviously suited you. Which is good. Go to more of his classes if you enjoy them. There's no need to put other people down though.

Regards
Steve

[Gus]

Originally posted by Karen W
Thank you, I have been to Emmas classes, and with all due respect, Emma is a complete amatuer by comparison.


I take it gus you have not actually seen Adam

Karen

Think I met him at the CTA update and saw him at the Ceroc champs ... afraid to say didn't see anything out of the ordinary but than again most people were just dancing, so probably didn't see him at his best. If he comes up for the Champs, I'll see him then.:nice: Anyone who can make Emma look like an amatuer must be worth seeing, even V&L can't do that.

[Karen W]

I am sorry Steve, I did not mean to sound as though I was putting Emma down. I think she is totaly fab. Adam is however totally refreshing and if there is such a thing, a teacher genius.

Enough about him I guess, but he really is worth seeing. He did a short cabaret which was soooo second to none.

I am surprised how few people this side of the M25 know of him though, he said he has been teaching for about 7 or 8 years

Karen

[Gus]

Originally posted by DavidB
Without a doubt if a competition were judged purely on moves, then I can't see anyone beating Viktor. But there are so many other things that make up good dancing, and a whole different set of things that make up a good performance

It is anything but a forgone conclusion who would win.

David

Fair comment. What I was trying to say, and obviously failing, is that from my limited view of dancing I feel that V&L are the most complete dancers I know.

My observation of the competitors I've seen so far is that, in comparison, they are one dimensional ... giving emphasis to a limited area of dance ... with the exceptions of the Auusies. V&L are among the few dancers I've seen who manage to combine musicality, move complexity and style into a single performance. The only other couple I've seen near that level is N&N.

Having said that ... I've not seen a lot of the talent on the Southern circuit and ... whatever has been said before, its all down to the performance on the day and what the referees are looking for... and much like any competition, the only thing that is certain is that most people will have a differing opinion to the judges!

Out of interest, are there any couples that you think are of a similar level to V&L? Maybe Amir and Kate (I've not yet seen them dance together but have heard they're wonderful).

[TheTramp]

Maybe Amir and Kate (I've not yet seen them dance together but have heard they're wonderful).
Difficult to say. They are definitely very smooth, and combine some useful styles into their jive (Argentinian tango, and ballet!). However, I've only ever seen them perform one routine, which is only 2.5 minutes long (although, I have seen them perform it about 10 times now). It's quite a nice routine, but nothing out of the ordinary. They did teach very well together at Camber in May too.

Steve

[Rachel]

Originally posted by DavidB
Chance2Dance say that "Points will be awarded for Style, Presentation, Musical Interpretation and Dress". What on earth does 'dress' have to do with dancing ability? Why should you be judged on the clothes you're wearing? Don't understand ...

How many times have you heard people saying: you have to wear something glitzy at competitions to get noticed, if want a place? Why can't you wear whatever the hell you want and not have to worry about being marked down for it? Am I just being ignorant or missing something here???
Rachel

[TheTramp]

What on earth does 'dress' have to do with dancing ability? Why should you be judged on the clothes you're wearing? Don't understand ...I quite agree. I would like to see all reference to what you're wearing taken out of competitions. After all, those with more money, or superior sewing skills, or just the time to go scour shops for costumes get an advantage over those without the above. And, some people will always look better no matter what they wear.

Of course, those running the competitions, would no doubt say that the clothes add to the competition, and if everyone just turned up in their usual dancing gear, it wouldn't be quite the same spectacle.

Depends whether you're running a fashion show, or a dance competition I guess...

Steve

[Gus]

Originally posted by TheTramp
I quite agree. I would like to see all reference to what you're wearing taken out of competitions. After all, those with more money, or superior sewing skills, or just the time to go scour shops for costumes get an advantage over those without the above. And, some people will always look better no matter what they wear.

Steve

The point may be that competitions are about a visual display, a performance. So, part of that is how the dance looks ... and this is enhanced (or not) by the costumes. you could also argue against some of the flashy hand/arm gestures but again this appears to be part of dance performance .... just as long as they don't force us to start wearing fake tan and having fixed grins plastered across our faces.....

[TheTramp]

having fixed grins plastered across our facesThat's what my partners usually have. I'm assuming it's that they're enjoying themselves.

Though, I suppose it could be fear!?!

Steve

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Rachel
What on earth does 'dress' have to do with dancing ability?Not a lot. But in most dance competitions, it is not just about dancing ability - it is also about performing in front of people. 'Dress' can make a big difference to the look of the performance. I'm not sure it should be explicitly part of the judging criteria though...


How many times have you heard people saying: you have to wear something glitzy at competitions to get noticed, if want a place?There is something to this. When there are several couples on the floor, judging is very difficult. With 10 couples on the floor, each judge would have less than 20 seconds to look at each couple. Anything that makes you stand out a bit can help - it makes it easier for the judge to see you, and know he has seen you. Being just another couple in black makes you blend in with everyone else. At best the judge would have to think twice if he has marked you - at worst he might forget about you. (I know the men wear numbers, but you can spend several seconds waiting for a man to turn round so you can see his number.)

Apart from competitions, the one other time that dress makes a big difference is in a cabaret. If I am paying someone to perform, and have booked them in advance, then I would expect them to make an effort in their appearance. T-shirts and jeans do not suggest a professional approach.

David

[Rachel]

Originally posted by DavidB
Apart from competitions, the one other time that dress makes a big difference is in a cabaret. If I am paying someone to perform, and have booked them in advance, then I would expect them to make an effort in their appearance. T-shirts and jeans do not suggest a professional approach.

David Oh yes, I definitely agree with your point above.

And I can see what you're saying about needing to stand out if you want the judges to see you, but surely that should be up to the individuals - as you say, "I'm not sure it should be explicitly part of the judging criteria though..."
Rachel

[Lou]

Originally posted by Rachel
"I'm not sure it should be explicitly part of the judging criteria though..."
I think it's odd, too, that it's a criteria for the competition (especially when "dancing" or "moves" aren't mentioned!), however, isn't it better that it's stated explicitly, so that all competitors know what the judges are looking for?

As Gus said though - please don't let it get as far as fake tans!

[Gadget]

Personally, I would have thought that 'Dress' was a part of 'Style'. I suppose it depends on your definition, but 'Dress' to me equals apperance. And if you are going to start judging competitions on looks, then some of us have a negative score before we start !! :sick::tears:
Costumes definetly can add to a performance, but I would doubt that anyone would choose to wear something that would detract from their dancing (hooped clown trousers, flippers & snorkle...)
There is also the theory that if you think you look good, then you actually do look better than if you think you don't. Positive mental attitude or somthing: Think sexy - be sexy. :wink:

[Bill]

Originally posted by Gus
whatever has been said before, its all down to the performance on the day and what the referees are looking for... and much like any competition, the only thing that is certain is that most people will have a differing opinion to the judges!Have to disagree Gus.......( at last :D :rolleyes: ). I'd like to think that all the judges at any comp would be absolutely fair and judge only the performance before them but as human beings they will be subject to all sorts of 'pressure' and personal bias.

There are dancers - many of those named on this thread ( and unfortunately many I don't know) - who are very well known and as soon as they get on to the floor all the judges will recognise them and know what their potential is so what the 'unknown' dancers have to do is to dance as well as the others can dance - not necessarily how well they dance in that round !

This has been touched on before on another thread and someone made the comparison with ice-skating and skaters being judged as much on their reputation as on their actual performance.

To back this up I think all you have to do is look at some recent comps and see that some finalists don't appear to be dancing that well - and certainly not really interpreting the music but they are often well known dancers and certainly well known to the judges - some even tutored by some of the judges ( another issues I've raised before !).

But I'd love to see all these dancers compete against each other. What a comp that would be :D :waycool:

[TheTramp]

whatever has been said before, its all down to the performance on the day and what the referees are looking for... and much like any competition, the only thing that is certain is that most people will have a differing opinion to the judges!Missed this earlier. And I have to agree with Bill.

A very well known, male dancer, who is often asked to judge competitions (and will remain nameless (unless large sums of money are deposited in my bank accound)) allegedly told a friend of mine, that he judges at least partly on reputation, as well as performance on the day.

I suppose that it's possibly not necessarily a bad thing. If Viktor and Lydia were in a competition, and had an absolute howler of a first round, so bad that there's no way they'd deserve to get through (hey, it happens!), would you really stop them going through, on the grounds that they could never be that bad again?

I didn't put that very well, but I think you'll all get the gist!

Steve

[Gadget]

Originally posted by TheTramp
If Viktor and Lydia were in a competition, and had an absolute howler of a first round, so bad that there's no way they'd deserve to get through (hey, it happens!), would you really stop them going through?
Yes.
And the dancers shouldn't have a probem with it.

[DavidB]

This is a very tricky question. Ideally if each competitor has an equal chance of winning, then a judge would give each competitor an equal amount of time to make an impression, and would form his opinion purely on what he sees.

There are two problems with this:
- Not everyone has an equal chance of winning. Some people are better dancers than others, some are better performers than others.
- The judge does not have enough time to look at each couple

So like everything else where there are too many demands on a limited resource, there has to be a compromise. A judge should spend more time on those couples who are at the borderline at each cut-off point. Those who make it through will get judged later. Those who are not dancing well enough to be considered should not get as much of the judges time.

In practice a judge will know some couples, and will also remember other couples from earlier rounds. He will know 80% of the people he will mark through before they even dance. AS LONG AS HE CHECKS THESE COUPLES ARE STILL AT THE STANDARD HE REMEMBERS, then he can pretty safely mark them through. Similarly he might remember couples who were lucky to make it this far. AS LONG AS HE CHECKS THEY ARE STILL DANCING THE SAME, then he can rule them out. He now has enough time to fairly judge the couples at the borderline.
(I have seen one very good couple dance off-time in a heat. Quite rightly they didn't make it through.)

I would be horrified if a judge treated a final in the same way. Here the judge should come to a decision based purely on what he sees. But now everyone should be at a similar level, and he should have more time to give each couple.

David