Does your marketing p*ss off your existing customers?

[El Salsero Gringo]

on behalf of Hannes, Amy, Ceroc Enterprises Ltd, Uncle Tom Cobbleigh and all]Dear xxxxxxx

Strictly No Sequins -The fun is in the learning!

Take advantage of an opportunity to enjoy learning Latin American and
Ballroom dance skills at Strictly No Sequins for free. This email
entitles you to three free classes - Tuesday 10th May, Tuesday 17th May
and Tuesday 24th May 2005.

Simply print off and present this email with your membership card to the
door person each time you attend.

This offer is only valid for
xxxxxxx xxxxxxx xxxxx xxxxxx.

Free admission is only permitted with a copy of this email showing your
name and membership number.

Warmest regards

Hannes and AmyA friend of mine was kind enough to forward to me this email that had come through the Borg marketing machine.

I totally understand the need to increase attendance, and that one way to do this to offer free entrance to people on your membership database who haven't tried Nosequins, but I'm having an emotional reaction to the fact that someone who isn't the least bit interested in Ballroom gets offered the freebies, while, having been every week so far (as well as both workshops) my custom is being taken for granted (or so it feels.)

Of course this is all possible as a result of maintaining up-to-date databases of who goes to which venues, and more importantly who doesn't go to which venues. So how about offering something to ones loyal customers too, as well as encouraging new people to attend? How about a "come five weeks in a row, get the sixth entry for free?" Or, even, at no cost to anyone, just a weekly free glass of tap-water to those who've stumped up their £7 (obviously those on a freebie will still have to pay £1.)


While I'm in a complaining mood, can I add that I and some others thought that 50 people attending the workshop on Saturday was too many. While the standard of teaching was very high as usual (thank-you to Hannes and Amy) there wasn't nearly as much time for attention to individual couples as I had hoped.

[Bangers & Mash]

This is always a tricky problem, especially if you are a small company.

For instance, what if you want to run a course but can't get enough people. You have the option of cancelling the course and disappointing all those currently booked, or you have to do something drastic like offer discounts, half price, free entry or whatever.

Either way, it is not always possible to please everybody all the time. One alternative might have been to send a note to all existing customers saying "due to lack of numbers we are having to offer free or discounted places to new starters in order to continue the courses on which you have registered. If you have a friend who is interested in learning xxx then now is a good opportunity to introduce a friend and share the discount...."

I would argue that these people have had to take a financial hit in making the offer as they don't make on the deal either. Perhaps, what they could do for existing customers is offer a loyalty bonus - anything from discounted course next time round to bring a friend for free...

Maybe, better to ask if you can help to sell their services and get a commission on every new person who turns up - they obviously feel they need to increase numbers..

[David Bailey]

I totally understand the need to increase attendance, and that one way to do this to offer free entrance to people on your membership database who haven't tried Nosequins, but I'm having an emotional reaction to the fact that someone who isn't the least bit interested in Ballroom gets offered the freebies, while, having been every week so far (as well as both workshops) my custom is being taken for granted (or so it feels.)
That's marketing for you - it's usually more profitable to run recruitment campaigns than retention campaigns. Look at the same scam (err, promotional campaign, that is) with building societies. They calculate that they'll retain your custom anyway - and I assume they're correct.


So how about offering something to ones loyal customers too, as well as encouraging new people to attend?
Because it's not often seen as commercially effective as getting new people in - the "we've got a database of 400K members, let's market new product to them" is a strong argument.


How about a "come five weeks in a row, get the sixth entry for free?"
Ceroc Chilterns do this - although having said that, I keep forgetting my loyalty card :blush:


Or, even, at no cost to anyone, just a weekly free glass of tap-water
I suspect the venue organisers at Ashtons would not be keen on this :)


While I'm in a complaining mood, can I add that I and some others thought that 50 people attending the workshop on Saturday was too many.
:yeah: Good grief! 50 people isn't a workshop, it's a very long class!


For instance, what if you want to run a course but can't get enough people. You have the option of cancelling the course and disappointing all those currently booked, or you have to do something drastic like offer discounts, half price, free entry or whatever.
Standard Ceroc workshops get run with less than 50 people, but somehow Ceroc manages to struggle on. Boy, 50 people, at £20-30 a head, that's serious money...

[MartinHarper]

Sounds like the next three weeks will be an excellent opportunity for you to sample some of the other places that teach ballroom dancing.
TRDC offers a discount for members (http://www.jazzjiveswing.com/html/membership.html), which is one way to reward loyalty.

[Ballroom queen]

A friend of mine was kind enough to forward to me this email that had come through the Borg marketing machine.

... snip...while, having been every week so far (as well as both workshops) my custom is being taken for granted (or so it feels.).

I agree, the only time I seem to get freebies is when I'm out of the country - the last time it happened I got the email the day AFTER I told the venue organisers that I wouldn't be there the following week because I was away!!!


While I'm in a complaining mood, can I add that I and some others thought that 50 people attending the workshop on Saturday was too many. While the standard of teaching was very high as usual (thank-you to Hannes and Amy) there wasn't nearly as much time for attention to individual couples as I had hoped.

WOW - glad I couldn't make it then! I know ashtons is expensive to hire but please...

[Whitebeard]

While I'm in a complaining mood, can I add that I and some others thought that 50 people attending the workshop on Saturday was too many.



Good grief! 50 people isn't a workshop, it's a very long class!

The recent local Nigel and Nina "Dancing the Blues" was billed as a workshop. In the event, numbers were something like double that number at least and the teaching was done from the stage in normal class format.

It was also noticable that ladies outnumbered men by the usual 10-15%, so any notion that ladies in general might be deterred by the prospect of closer contact than is normal in regular MJ is way off mark. I'd wager that it's the men who are more usually cautious and wary about seeming to get too UCP. That is certainly so in my case.

[MartinHarper]

It was also noticable that ladies outnumbered men by the usual 10-15%

Indeed. I'm told that they had to turn away a fair number of women, lest the numbers become even less balanced.

[El Salsero Gringo]

That's marketing for you - it's usually more profitable to run recruitment campaigns than retention campaigns.Actually I think that goes against the conventional wisdom that you should concentrate on retaining and getting more money out of your existing customers. The difference here is the marginal cost of additional attendees is zero, so the marketing campaign is actually completely free. How I would laugh if two hundred people turned up on freebies for three weeks, p*ssed off the regulars so we stopped coming - and then never turned up again.

Actually I wouldn't laugh at all, it would be tragic. I want to see the event succeed as much as anyone else. I've done everything I can to get my friends to come along, I've posted plenty of feedback on the evenings here on the forum, lots of praise for all the things I think they get right and comments on the things I think they don't, I've talked it up to practically everyone I know and meant every word of what I've said.

I recognise now that the fault is entirely mine. I'm being totally dumb to actually care, and I should, as Martin suggests, take myself elsewhere for a while. Who knows - perhaps if I do, I might get selected for a freebie myself.

[frodo]

A friend of mine was kind enough to forward to me this email that had come through the Borg marketing machine.

....

I totally understand the need to increase attendance, and that one way to do this to offer free entrance to people on your membership database who haven't tried Nosequins, but I'm having an emotional reaction to the fact that someone who isn't the least bit interested in Ballroom gets offered the freebies, while, having been every week so far (as well as both workshops) my custom is being taken for granted (or so it feels.)

Of course this is all possible as a result of maintaining up-to-date databases of who goes to which venues, and more importantly who doesn't go to which venues. So how about offering something to ones loyal customers too, as well as encouraging new people to attend? How about a "come five weeks in a row, get the sixth entry for free?" Or, even, at no cost to anyone, just a weekly free glass of tap-water to those who've stumped up their £7 (obviously those on a freebie will still have to pay £1.)


While I'm in a complaining mood, can I add that I and some others thought that 50 people attending the workshop on Saturday was too many. While the standard of teaching was very high as usual (thank-you to Hannes and Amy) there wasn't nearly as much time for attention to individual couples as I had hoped.

Maybe Ceroc member "El Salsero Gringo #1", "El Salsero Gringo #2" are in order.


I was going to say that 50 wasn't so much more than 20 couples in a normal Ceroc workshop, and at 27.50 compared to 30.00 it is a little cheaper, but just looked again and it's 20 people not couples at a normal Ceroc workshop.

A natural assumption given they are advertised similarily on the Ceroc London website, would be a similar ratio, so the maximum numbers really should have been advertised up front.


I've never been to a Ceroc workshop but do you have a single teacher and a demo rather than 2 qualified teachers ( which together with different hall costs might account for the price difference ).

[David Bailey]

I've never been to a Ceroc workshop but do you have a single teacher and a demo rather than 2 qualified teachers ( which together with different hall costs might account for the price difference ).
I believe it's a teacher and a demo. OK, these guys are two qualified teachers, but they're still only one couple and therefore can only show one concept at a time, unless they're each dancing with a demonstrator of course.

As for Ashtons, I'm sure it's not cheap, but it's probably also not in great demand as a hall for a Saturday afternoon session - and there are plenty of other places available for hire. After all, it's not a nightclub session, any church hall would do.

[El Salsero Gringo]

I believe it's a teacher and a demo. OK, these guys are two qualified teachers, but they're still only one couple and therefore can only show one concept at a time, unless they're each dancing with a demonstrator of course.

As for Ashtons, I'm sure it's not cheap, but it's probably also not in great demand as a hall for a Saturday afternoon session - and there are plenty of other places available for hire. After all, it's not a nightclub session, any church hall would do.I don't think the hall hire costs them very much on a Saturday afternoon. Ashtons didn't provide any staff (at least no-one there knew where the light-switch for the ladies' lavatory was, and we gents were asked not to use the urinals so the ladies could share our loos), there's no bar open, and music's provided through Hannes' laptop and a single speaker. The first workshop even had Hannes running round on a mobile phone having Linda talk him through where the light-switches for the dance floor were.

I do however think it's a bit vulgar (if natural) to worry about who's earning what from the whole scene - let the market decide what's a fair price. I felt that the experience would have been significantly better with 15 or 20 couples only, though.

As for tonight - I'm off to Hipsters. I've been wanting to try it for ages, and now seems as good a time as any.

[David Bailey]

I do however think it's a bit vulgar (if natural) to worry about who's earning what from the whole scene - let the market decide what's a fair price. I felt that the experience would have been significantly better with 15 or 20 couples only, though.
I certainly don't begrudge them earning lots of money, but I think it's reasonable to consider value-for-money criteria. A one-hour one-to-one teaching session with a good teacher at ceroc is between £35 - £50 per hour, I believe, so getting 1/50th of that attention over four hours for nearly the same price seems a bit iffy. OTOH, it sounds like a good session, so what do I know...


As for tonight - I'm off to Hipsters. I've been wanting to try it for ages, and now seems as good a time as any.
You'll probably get a marketing email now asking if you want to return :)

[El Salsero Gringo]

I certainly don't begrudge them earning lots of money, but I think it's reasonable to consider value-for-money criteria. A one-hour one-to-one teaching session with a good teacher at ceroc is between £35 - £50 per hour, I believe, so getting 1/50th of that attention over four hours for nearly the same price seems a bit iffy. OTOH, it sounds like a good session, so what do I know...


You'll probably get a marketing email now asking if you want to return :)Kele Baker (www.kensingtondancestudio.com) charges £33 per hour. But at that price I don't get told that I'm dancing like "f*cking Quasimodo" - maybe insults are extra?

[David Bailey]

But at that price I don't get told that I'm dancing like "f*cking Quasimodo" - maybe insults are extra?
:rofl:

Hey, pay me and I'll insult you if you want...

Seriously, they didn't really say that, did they? To a paying customer?? :what: :confused: :angry:

[David Franklin]

Seriously, they didn't really say that, did they? To a paying customer?? :what: :confused: :angry:From my experience of the Tuesday classes, I could see Hannes saying that, but probably to the class in general (i.e. "stop doing XYZ - it makes you look like..."). To paraphrase an old saw:

Insult one person - you're an ass. Insult hundreds, you're a comedian...

[El Salsero Gringo]

:rofl:

Hey, pay me and I'll insult you if you want...

Seriously, they didn't really say that, did they? To a paying customer?? :what: :confused: :angry:

I could see Hannes saying that, but probably to the class in generalNo, it was part of the individual attention of which I suggested there wasn't enough (what was I thinking?) and the full quote was "Drop your shoulders - you look like ...". It was just Hannes's way of getting me to pay attention to posture, in his usual 'robust' style. I didn't take offence.