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David Bailey
8th-May-2005, 12:47 PM
Following on from Gus's superb Teaching beginners (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5282) thread, I'd like to grab a snapshot of opinion on whether people think it'd be a good idea to introduce some form of testing into Ceroc (or MJ in general), as part of going from beginner to intermediate (and beyond).

Jazz_Shoes (Ash)
8th-May-2005, 12:55 PM
Following on from Gus's superb Teaching beginners (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5282) thread, I'd like to grab a snapshot of opinion on whether people think it'd be a good idea to introduce some form of testing into Ceroc (or MJ in general), as part of going from beginner to intermediate (and beyond).

I think that it is a good idea-but should be optional I personally would like the option of a test as I would then definately know wether I was ready to move up to Intermediate or not, instead of moving up and feeling unsure as to wether or not I should be there :nice:

Ashx

Gus
8th-May-2005, 01:09 PM
The option I really wanted wasn't there. I would like to see dancers vetted before joining 'advanced' classes. It would save a lot of injury and wasted time as well as putting a few egos back to the level they should be at.

Lou
8th-May-2005, 01:12 PM
And what about cross-organisational dancers? Should each organisation/franchise trust the others, or do their own testing? :wink:

Lynn
8th-May-2005, 01:41 PM
I think to bring in compulsory tests when there has been nothing like that in the past, would be too big a change. It would need to be optional - and judging dancers reactions to it would give some idea if it could ever be brought in as a requirement.

My suggestions/ideas

- Optional 'feedback' available at workshop level from teacher - can be used to judge ability to move up a level (for beginners), and as a way of dancers learning about their own strengths and weaknesses and how to improve (all levels).

- Avoid use of the word 'test' - it implies the possibility of 'failure' - this is a method of measuring progress not an attempt to fail anyone. It could be called 'assessment' instead - assessing a persons level/ability.

- Something more structured might be helpful at a more 'advanced intermediate' level - eg people have to achieve a certain standard in one workshop before they are allowed to progress to the next level of workshops - this would prevent people moving up too quickly.

David Bailey
8th-May-2005, 02:16 PM
The option I really wanted wasn't there. I would like to see dancers vetted before joining 'advanced' classes. It would save a lot of injury and wasted time as well as putting a few egos back to the level they should be at.
Yes, I considered the "multi-level" options, but wanted to keep it simple; that would probably lead to a discussion of how many levels we should have etc., which whilst valid, isn't really the point...

Besides, then someone might tell me for sure I'm crap, rather than just hinting :)

El Salsero Gringo
8th-May-2005, 03:49 PM
- Avoid use of the word 'test' - it implies the possibility of 'failure' - this is a method of measuring progress not an attempt to fail anyone. It could be called 'assessment' instead - assessing a persons level/ability.I don't think anyone would fall for that.

Baruch
8th-May-2005, 04:07 PM
I don't think anyone would fall for that.
As a teacher, I disagree with you. You only have to look at the reactions of children (which are ingrained in all of us, as we were all children once). Of course, assessment is necessary in schools. Tell the children they're having a test, and they get uptight about it, worry about it and start (in some cases) to worry about failing it. Tell them they're being assessed and they're much more relaxed about it, even though they can see it's pretty much the same tasks they're being asked to do in either case.

It's all in the terminology: "test" implies pass or fail, whereas "assessment" implies finding out where you are in order to move you on, ability-wise.

El Salsero Gringo
8th-May-2005, 04:15 PM
As a teacher, I disagree with you. You only have to look at the reactions of children (which are ingrained in all of us, as we were all children once). Of course, assessment is necessary in schools. Tell the children they're having a test, and they get uptight about it, worry about it and start (in some cases) to worry about failing it. Tell them they're being assessed and they're much more relaxed about it, even though they can see it's pretty much the same tasks they're being asked to do in either case.

It's all in the terminology: "test" implies pass or fail, whereas "assessment" implies finding out where you are in order to move you on, ability-wise.
We aren't talking about children - we're talking about intelligent, and cynical, adults who know well enough that when their 'assessment' indicates that they aren't yet suitable to attend an intermediate class - that means they've failed.

Baruch
8th-May-2005, 04:25 PM
We aren't talking about children - we're talking about intelligent, and cynical, adults who know well enough that when their 'assessment' indicates that they aren't yet suitable to attend an intermediate class - that means they've failed.
I'm aware of that. I'm also aware that children and adults aren't all that different, in many ways.

I've come across many intelligent and cynical children as well as adults.

It all depends on how much emphasis is put on assessment and how it is used. If you play up the "pass or fail" aspect then it could easily put people off, yes. On the other hand, if it's used for more than just deciding if someone's ready to move up a level, then it's less threatening. You could potentially ask the teacher to assess you for all sorts of things: style, ability to execute moves, leading or following ability, musical interpretation and probably plenty of other things.

Even if you go down the road of only using assessment to decide whether someone is ready to move up from beginners to intermediates, or intermediate to advanced, if it is non-compulsory then the pass-or-fail aspect, that of either moving up or not, is taken out of the equation. You can choose to ignore the teacher's assessment if you want, though of course that would usually be unwise.

Non-compulsory assessment would indicate whether or not you should move up, as opposed to whether you may move up, which is what a compulsory test tells you. There is a big difference.

dance cat
8th-May-2005, 04:45 PM
i don't see the problem with being told in a test or an assessment where you are going wrong or if you have met the standard.In my local Salsa classes the teacher tells you whether you will cope with the next level and there is no feeling of being a huge failure. they also tell you what you need to work on to be able to move up and this is then picked up in future lessons. i always ask more experienced dancers if i've done something wrong and welcome feedback. i wouldn't have a problem with doing a test along the lines of dancing with the teacher. however in my area of the country very few teachers, with the exception of Gus and Dazzle seem to dance with the masses. i think they could learn from Nigel. i was impressed by the fact that he made a point of dancing with everyone in the room after he had taught the lesson at hipsters. i'm sorry to say that i don't know if this is regular practice in London as i've only managed the trip down once but i think this would drastically improve the quality of dance that the more experienced dancers seem to think needs remedying.

Dazzle
8th-May-2005, 05:51 PM
Swap test for assessment and I think most would be happier. Where venues have beginners' revision classes or another room during intrmediate classes this will work, i.e., people continue with those. But if not, can we say to people that they cannot do the intermediate class and must sit and watch?

Dance Cat thanks for the acknowledgement that I DO try to get around all levels of dancer in the class during freestyle. My comments under the Are We Teaching Beginners Properly thread do not deter me from doing my job/best to help dancers get better.

Assessment should be optional, as long as people accept that they will not progress the same way. This happens in oh so many other fields of endeavour.

Would this asessment call into question the age-old idea of a central MJ organisation to oversee standards across all club types?

David Bailey
8th-May-2005, 05:59 PM
I have no problem with a label of "assessment" - if it will encourage people to do it, I don't care if it's called "elephant". Or "DavidJames Exercise" :)

I personally also feel that a simple "pass / fail" would be less helpful than a full-on review, which should aim to point out good areas and development areas (note the avoidance of the phrase "bad areas" - I've learnt from the "c**p teachers" thread :) ).

However, in practical terms, organising individual reviews to that degree would be a whole level more difficult than running 3-minute "yes / no" type reviews. I'm basically envisaging UK Ceroc copying best practice from Australia - their system seems to work, although I'd like to know more about the details.

ducasi
8th-May-2005, 06:03 PM
- Avoid use of the word 'test' - it implies the possibility of 'failure' - this is a method of measuring progress not an attempt to fail anyone. It could be called 'assessment' instead - assessing a persons level/ability.
Tell the children they're having a test, and they get uptight about it, worry about it and start (in some cases) to worry about failing it. Tell them they're being assessed and they're much more relaxed about it, even though they can see it's pretty much the same tasks they're being asked to do in either case.
We aren't talking about children - we're talking about intelligent, and cynical, adults who know well enough that when their 'assessment' indicates that they aren't yet suitable to attend an intermediate class - that means they've failed. I agree with Lynn and Baruch here, despite being very cynical (and very intelligent, and very modest. NOT! :wink: )

I know the difference between a test and an assessment – you can't fail an assessment. You can only not do as well as you hoped.

In my idea of how "grading" or assessing would work, if it were possible, beginners could be assessed every week by a teacher and when the time is right be told "you've made the grade!" If they don't make the grade it'd be because they don't have sufficient experience, or there are beginner-level mistakes still needing correcting. That feedback would help them improve and maybe make the grade the next week.

Of course, they'd be no absolute requirement to be assessed and approved to move up to intermediate.

As you continue improving a continuing assessment would give you something to work towards if you want to improve your dancing. The best place for this sort of assessment would be workshops, or perhaps monthly at classes.

Unfortunately, I don't see my vision being entirely possible – there are too many beginners and (usually) only one teacher. But maybe via workshops some sort of grading could be done.

I guess for the beginners, with suitable training, Taxi Dancers could offer an assessment to each beginner either in the revision class or later during a freestyle, if there was time.

Whatever you call it though, I don't see any aspect of competition – everyone understands that we all started at different times and learn at difference rates. Even without any assessment you can look round the dance-floor and see people both better and worse than yourself. If people are going to be upset by this, whether people do or don't do grading isn't going to change anything.

El Salsero Gringo
8th-May-2005, 06:22 PM
I know the difference between a test and an assessment – you can't fail an assessment. You can only not do as well as you hoped.Absolutely right. And anyone attending an assessment billed as an indicator of whether they should be going to intermediate classes will be hoping to have reached that standard. So it's still a pass/fail test.

If the assessment doesn't indicate a yes/no as to whether they've reached that standard it doesn't fulfil the criteria given at the top of the thread.

It's exactly the same (stupid) idea as grading GCSE passes from A to E (so that no-one fails), and then saying that in order to qualify for many jobs or courses you need to achieve grade C in a subject like, say, maths. Everyone knows that if you don't get grade 'C' you've effectively failed.

ducasi
8th-May-2005, 06:35 PM
Absolutely right. And anyone attending an assessment billed as an indicator of whether they should be going to intermediate classes will be hoping to have reached that standard. So it's still a pass/fail test. So don't bill it as that. And don't make it something you have to "attend", make it part of the teaching.

I guess it comes down to whether you're entirely OK with beginners potentially moving up too fast which can spoil things for others, or whether you think some guidance might help them.

Me? I'm OK with both, but know which I'd prefer. :nice:

TheTramp
8th-May-2005, 06:46 PM
I know the difference between a test and an assessment – you can't fail an assessment. You can only not do as well as you hoped.
You might want to tell the people at my university that then!

We had mid-term assessments, and a number of people did fail. Thankfully I wasn't one of them, but a number of people were told that they had failed in the assessments.

El Salsero Gringo
8th-May-2005, 06:48 PM
I guess it comes down to whether you're entirely OK with beginners potentially moving up too fast which can spoil things for others, or whether you think some guidance might help them.:It comes down to the same old argument as to whether Ceroc in the UK is dedicated to building top quality dancers, or to providing some entertainment for the masses. As things stand we allow people to make up their own minds when they should attend intermediate classes yet we (who are interested in improving) still manage to get better despite the 'drag' of beginners maybe moving up too fast. I don't doubt that a test system would mean that some would learn faster, but I don't doubt either that others would be discouraged, and that overall numbers would go down. I just can't see that you can have one without the other.

I'm off now to a Salsa class, where there are strict standards to be reached before you move up a class, and where the top level 'advanced' class is by invitation of the instructor only. The demographic of those attending is very different from Ceroc - much younger and more 'thrusting' - and the novices drop-out rate is much much higher. I think that may be due to the attitude to "high standards" that pervades this Salsa class and which is noticeably absent from Ceroc.

ducasi
8th-May-2005, 07:00 PM
You might want to tell the people at my university that then!

We had mid-term assessments, and a number of people did fail. ... After reading this page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assessment) I guess what they were doing was a Summative Assessment, and what I'm thinking of is a Formative Assessment. :nice:

The word I'd prefer is "grading", though (again, referring to the link above) I hope that would be for educational purposes, not administrative.

Happy to know you passed though. :wink:

David Bailey
8th-May-2005, 08:37 PM
It comes down to the same old argument as to whether Ceroc in the UK is dedicated to building top quality dancers, or to providing some entertainment for the masses.

Depends which brings in more money I guess :whistle:


I don't doubt that a test system would mean that some would learn faster, but I don't doubt either that others would be discouraged, and that overall numbers would go down. I just can't see that you can have one without the other.
Depends on how many dancers are aspirational vs. recreational - of course, it's never black-and-white, we're all a mix of both. Tests, guidance, feedback and structure appeal more to the aspirational, whereas they may well put the recreational dancer off.

I agree that it could well reduce numbers of recreational dancers. However, it could also increase loyalty of intermediate dancers by promoting dance excellence, possibly offsetting this. Having said that, it's a gamble.



I'm off now to a Salsa class, where there are strict standards to be reached before you move up a class, and where the top level 'advanced' class is by invitation of the instructor only. The demographic of those attending is very different from Ceroc - much younger and more 'thrusting' - and the novices drop-out rate is much much higher. I think that may be due to the attitude to "high standards" that pervades this Salsa class and which is noticeably absent from Ceroc.
Good points, but I doubt that's a typical salsa class structure - you've managed to find a good salsa class (amazing - gold star that man), but most of them have less definition and structure than even a loose Ceroc class. Salsa novice retention rate has always been lower than Ceroc, but I'd guess this is more because the dance itself has a steeper initial learning curve. Similarly, salsa demographics, especially in central London, have always been younger than ceroc.

All that said, as a greedy consumer, I'd always prefer to have 100 good dancers in a room instead of 50 good + 100 not-so-good. But I suspect that may not appeal to the business heads of the relevant organisers...

bigdjiver
8th-May-2005, 09:04 PM
The big turn off, for me, at the salsa classes I have attended was the grading structure. Everybody trying to get better meant that few were interested in dancing with, or helping , those of a lower grade. I ran into the same experience, but even worse, at the ballroom classes I attended. There are some nice people at all of them, but the ethos was definitely different, and I did not like it.

El Salsero Gringo
8th-May-2005, 10:00 PM
The big turn off, for me, at the salsa classes I have attended was the grading structure.Some people like that kind of structure, and some don't. Given that Ceroc is billed as "the dance for those who can't dance", and that one of the things I (and possibly others reading and now contributing to this thread?) liked it so much at the start because it was judgement-free, no tests, no assessments, no gradings, just "get on with it".

I wouldn't like to jeopardise that feeling for recent beginners just because, a few years in, I now feel that *I* would get more out of intermediate classes if some of the "riff-raff" were encouraged (or forced) to stay in the beginners classes.

Come to that, there's nothing in the world stopping anyone who wants a teacher's assessment as to whether they should attend the intermediate classes from asking them *right now* for a dance with a view to getting a judgement. But I suspect that those in favour of testing have in mind that the intermediate classes would be better off without exactly those people who would never volunteer for such a test nor abide by its result should it find against them. So in order to have the desired effect you'd *have* to make the assessment compulsory, and enforce the outcome.

Baruch
8th-May-2005, 10:26 PM
I wouldn't like to jeopardise that feeling for recent beginners just because, a few years in, I now feel that *I* would get more out of intermediate classes if some of the "riff-raff" were encouraged (or forced) to stay in the beginners classes.
I don't think it's about that at all. It's more a case of people moving up to intermediate before they are ready. At the venue I attend there are a few dancers who moved up too soon and either can't follow a simple lead yet or, as in the case of one guy I know, finds the class so difficult to follow that he gets into all sorts of weird knots and ends up hurting some of the ladies.

It's not about keeping people out of the intermediate class until they're totally amazing, as very few people, if any, are great when they first start intermediate classes. I remember finding my first intermediate class quite hard, as it was quite a step up from beginners, and I'm sure I wasn't the easiest person there to dance with. However, I was safe to dance with, and I'd been told by one of the teachers from the beginners' revision class (our equivalent of taxi dancers) that I should join the intermediate class because I had the ability to do it.

IMO, the absolute minimum requirement for joining the intermediate class should be the ability to lead/follow all the beginner moves competently and safely. Not all those who make the step up are at that level, which can be dangerous both to them and to other dancers when attempting more complex moves. A degree of confidence when freestyling wouldn't go amiss either.


Come to that, there's nothing in the world stopping anyone who wants a teacher's assessment as to whether they should attend the intermediate classes from asking them *right now* for a dance with a view to getting a judgement.
Absolutely right. That's what I did when I moved up to intermediate. It might be a good idea to let people know that this facility is available for them though, rather than assuming they'll do it automatically. The idea just might not occur to some people.


But I suspect that those in favour of testing have in mind that the intermediate classes would be better off without exactly those people who would never volunteer for such a test nor abide by its result should it find against them. So in order to have the desired effect you'd *have* to make the assessment compulsory, and enforce the outcome.
I don't know where you get that idea from. You make it sound like an elitist conspiracy.

El Salsero Gringo
8th-May-2005, 10:41 PM
IMO, the absolute minimum requirement for joining the intermediate class should be the ability to lead/follow all the beginner moves competently and safely. Not all those who make the step up are at that level, which can be dangerous both to them and to other dancers when attempting more complex moves. A degree of confidence when freestyling wouldn't go amiss either.Many things wouldn't go amiss, but I think people should do the intermediate class when *they* are ready to benefit from it. I think you're setting the bar too high, especially in terms of lead-and-follow, the appreciation of which (even for the beginners moves) benefits greatly from experience of how intermediate moves vary from their basic counterparts.

On the safety aspect: if someone is a danger to their fellow dancers, then - with all due respect - the question of whether they should be permitted to attend an intermediate class is entirely beside the point. If they're dangerous and hurting people they shouldn't be attending even a beginner's class. I don't accept that you need to learn to be safe on the beginners moves before moving up, because people should be safe (or be instructed how to be safe) right from day 1.


It might be a good idea to let people know that this facility is available for them though, rather than assuming they'll do it automatically. The idea just might not occur to some people.You're right - the teacher could mention this at the time when they introduce the taxi-dancers.



I don't know where you get that idea from. You make it sound like an elitist conspiracy.Not a conspiracy, just a natural consequence. If Mr. (or Mrs.) Don't-give-a-sh*t-that-I'm-breaking-my-partners-arms wants to attend an intermediate class, I'd say they were likely to be Mr. (or Mrs.) Don't-give-a-sh*t-about-taking-any-tests too.

ducasi
8th-May-2005, 11:00 PM
...

Come to that, there's nothing in the world stopping anyone who wants a teacher's assessment as to whether they should attend the intermediate classes from asking them *right now* for a dance with a view to getting a judgement. But I suspect that those in favour of testing have in mind that the intermediate classes would be better off without exactly those people who would never volunteer for such a test nor abide by its result should it find against them. So in order to have the desired effect you'd *have* to make the assessment compulsory, and enforce the outcome. Can I clarify my point of view, in case it's misunderstood.

I can ask a teacher right now but typically I'll (hopefully) get back "quite good" or "doing well" or something like that. If I go back in a few month's time it'll (again hopefully) be "much better" or "definitely improved". But I really don't know what these actually mean.

I personally would like a uniform grading structure so that I can get an objective measure of my progress. If a teacher can say to me now "Intermediate 1", that would mean something. If in a few months time they said "Intermediate 2", again by knowing the grading structure I'd know I'd improved and by how much.

As for the beginners to intermediate thing, I was grateful for a teacher's advice that I was ready and I think it would be good if everyone sought out a teacher or taxi dancer and asked them what they thought. I have been surprised at the haste in which others move up, but I wouldn't make anyone pass any test first.

But if there were a grading system, it'd make sense for it to include beginners and they'd be wise to use it.

I guess if people are so set on improving their grades that they won't want to dance with the lower classes, then a good fix would be to include in the grading scheme "the ability to dance well with all grades". Then they'd have to dance with us lesser mortals. :grin: I now think it's important if you want to be a good dancer to dance with a wide range of abilities – I didn't used to, and I hope I never change my mind again on this.

Basically, I think a grading scheme could exist which would help and motivate people who want to improve their dance, without having an adverse affect on the others who don't want to take part in it.

How easy it would be to create and implement and how it would ultimately affect the bottom line is a different matter.

Yliander
9th-May-2005, 06:45 AM
As someone who does actually have to assess and clear people so that they can do intermediate classes - if handled correctly it really isn't that big of a deal.

When this system was implemented at the beginning of this year we started issuing yelow "consolidation cards" to all beginners these cards contain a list of 12 base moves and 4 fundamental techniques, as well as a place for the teacher doing the assessment to sign an date thus entiling the student to a their first intermediate lesson for half price.

We advise all students of the system in place and encourage them to follow that path but it is not enforced in a major way. Some students choose to self promote and miss out on the discounted class - but most are happy to follow the system.

The assessment takes the format of a simple freestyle dance with an instructor - once the dance is over we either say well done & sign off their card or well done but/however you need to spend a couple more weeks in consolidation/beginners and focus on the following elements being tension, lead, follow etc usually give them some exercises they can use and advise them that if a move in class is a repeat for them to focus on the finer details of the moves.

We focus on it as way for them to ensure that they enjoy and get the most out of the intermediate class.

Currently we are trying to convince 3 students that they are ready to move up but they aren't so sure - makes a change from having to convince someone that they will be a better dancer for spending more time in consolidation

David Bailey
9th-May-2005, 07:33 AM
As someone who does actually have to assess and clear people so that they can do intermediate classes - if handled correctly it really isn't that big of a deal.

{ snip excellent procedural description }


Can I just repeat, I believe Ceroc UK could learn a lot from some of the Australian practices - it sounds like we're backwards in this area here in the UK, at least from a standardised-practice way. It works, they do it, it's not a big deal, why shouldn't we follow their, err, lead? :)

Casting my mind back to when I stepped up, I do remember it being a Big Deal to do the intermediate class - certainly I waited much longer than the recommended (then) 6 weeks, probably more than 12 weeks, simply because I had no idea whether I was ready to move up. I for one would have appreciated some guidance at that time to help me decide.

El Salsero Gringo
9th-May-2005, 08:58 AM
... why shouldn't we follow their, err, lead? :)For all the reasons already given in this and other threads! Ceroc UK doesn't have a culture of testing. UK Ceroc instructors aren't graded into four levels (http://www.ceroc.com.au/teachers/index.php) either. You can't take one aspect of another school of dance and transplant it here as easily as you think, and you have no idea what the social atmosphere of Ceroc in Australia is, either. (Nor do I, for that matter.) It might very well be younger, more competitive, (more like the typical Salsa crowd) and so more receptive to pressure to raise standards than Ceroc in the UK.

Casting my mind back to when I stepped up, I do remember it being a Big Deal to do the intermediate class - certainly I waited much longer than the recommended (then) 6 weeks, probably more than 12 weeks, simply because I had no idea whether I was ready to move up. I for one would have appreciated some guidance at that time to help me decide.Did it do you any harm to wait? Clearly not. You moved up when you were confident that you were ready. Just what is the problem you are trying to fix by arranging tests in Ceroc?

MartinHarper
9th-May-2005, 09:48 AM
As for the beginners to intermediate thing, I was grateful for a teacher's advice that I was ready and I think it would be good if everyone sought out a teacher or taxi dancer and asked them what they thought.

Good point. When folks murmur to me about whether they should move up, I'll try to point them at a teacher, rather than inflicting my own opinion on them.

Yliander
9th-May-2005, 09:51 AM
For all the reasons already given in this and other threads! Ceroc UK doesn't have a culture of testing. UK Ceroc instructors aren't graded into four levels (http://www.ceroc.com.au/teachers/index.php) either. You can't take one aspect of another school of dance and transplant it here as easily as you think, and you have no idea what the social atmosphere of Ceroc in Australia is, either. (Nor do I, for that matter.) It might very well be younger, more competitive, (more like the typical Salsa crowd) and so more receptive to pressure to raise standards than Ceroc in the UK. Just to clarify, testing/assessing/cleaering of beginners is something that is only done at CerocPerth (as far as I am aware at least), our students range in age from 16 to 60+ they are not particularly competitive - infact I would say that they are rather non-competitive we have had to work rather hard to get them to have a go at competition we have running this weekend.

Australia doesn't really have a 'culture of testing" - I believe we have a culture of competency

Teachers over hear are defined by the level of class they teach ie consolidation, beginners, intermediate or advanced - generally a teacher has progressed up the through the various levels expanding their skills, teaching and dance experience as they go.


Did it do you any harm to wait? Clearly not. You moved up when you were confident that you were ready. Just what is the problem you are trying to fix by arranging tests in Ceroc?the problem we were aiming to fix was not those of people who hang out in beginners for an extended period of time but was the one of the over confident students who think they are ready for intermediate when in fact they aren't - they spoil not only other peoples experience but some also come crashing down to reality and are never seen again and in extreme cases can be damaging to other dancers - Yli remembers a damaged shoulder from over confident self promoted beginner in an intermediate class trying to lead a pretzel and getting it horribly wrong

Gadget
9th-May-2005, 11:22 AM
the problem we were aiming to fix {is}the over confident students who think they are ready for intermediate when in fact they aren't
They aren't ready for what? What exactly is different from beginners to intermediates? The moves are a bit more complex and there is more to remember, but the same "problems" occur in the 'beginner's class', you just have less of the experienced dancers to in it. Let's keep all the poor leading and following in the beginner's classes where they can only injure themselves.

What is the difference? The moves are smaller and give the basics for the other "intermediate" moves so that there is some familiarity in them. But a move is a move is a move: If someone thought that they picked up the moves from the beginner class with ease, then why not try the intermediate class?
Most of the "work" to bring a dancer from 'novice' to 'intermediate' level is done from workshops, taxis and their own experience. The actual classes only provide some general instruction, guidance and a 'core' of moves (/movements). The skills of leading and following are too individual - it is hard to teach anything beyond the basics in a feeling, physical, tactile skill by using completely separate audio and visual senses. Especially on a broad selection of people and learning ability levels.

I think that the best solution to the above problem does not lie in the creation of barriers and levels to judge people at; drawing lines in the sand creates a 'them' and 'us' mentality from both sides that both segregates and prejudices.
By testing/assessing/judging/evaluating/whatever the dancers, you are banding a sliding scale. If a dancer wants to know where they are on a scale, then take advice from teachers, taxis and fellow dancers. Enter a competition. Making this banding obligatory and using it in an "official" manor for entrance and qualification is closing the door to the social dancer who doesn't care and just wants to dance.

I think a more ideal solution to having poorer beginners moving up is to have better beginners. How does a dancer get better? Dances with better dancers. I would prefer to see better dancers in the beginner's class - I think this solution has a lot more positives and fewer negatives than introducing a political class system.

You want to see how bad a dancer I am? Dance with me.

El Salsero Gringo
9th-May-2005, 12:44 PM
Australia doesn't really have a 'culture of testing" - I believe we have a culture of competency... that's already quite different from my impression of at least some of the (most) successful Ceroc nights that I know here in London. I don't mean to belittle our standards in the UK, or to mock Ceroc in Australia for being obsessed with ticking off lists of skills and making judgements about others. I've never been to Ceroc in Australia, but David Franklin (hope he doesn't mind me cross-quoting him) has and this is what he says:
Looking at the parent thread about testing, one thing that hasn't been brought up with regards to Australia is that from my experiences in Sydney, at any rate, the beginners class is considerably more difficult than it is here - the class did pretzels and leans, for example. So having tests to go into intermediate in Australia is more akin to tests for advanced over here. And I think there's a much clearer motivation for testing at that point. It means they are able to teach the intermediate class in a way that would have people dropping like flies over here! [I recall a very crowded class in Mosman, where a deep seducer-type drop was taught. The only reason there was space was because everyone did it in sync - a bit like domino-toppling except we all got up again! Not sure I approve of that under any circumstances, but it would have been crazy to even consider it in the UK].I don't think that Australian experiences carry over to the UK because I don't think you're comparing like with like.
The problem we were aiming to fix was not those of people who hang out in beginners for an extended period of time but was the one of the over confident students who think they are ready for intermediate when in fact they aren't - they spoil not only other peoples experience but some also come crashing down to reality and are never seen again and in extreme cases can be damaging to other dancers - Yli remembers a damaged shoulder from over confident self promoted beginner in an intermediate class trying to lead a pretzel and getting it horribly wrongAcknowledging that you had an issue, and that you've found a way that suits your system to fix it, I remain throughly sceptical that the same solution would work without changing the ethos of Ceroc (for the worse) or even, in fact, that there's a problem that needs fixing.

bigdjiver
9th-May-2005, 01:13 PM
From time to time we have visitors to our beginners class who are going to have a problem learning anything. Are we going to "fail" them,and ban them from a class? We do have beginner moves that involve twisting a ladies arm behind her back.

I think that we have to leave compentency decisions to the adults that attend the class rather than any formal procedure. The ethos of Ceroc, in my experience, is that sufficient friendly support and guidance is available within the structure and peer group to give the necessary advice. The downside of having the teacher do it is that the peer group will start to believe that it is "not their place" to advise, and leaving problems to fester until the teacher picks them up.

("Advise" includes advice on giving advice i.e. dancers self-regulation.)

Lynn
9th-May-2005, 01:28 PM
After reading this page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assessment) I guess what they were doing was a Summative Assessment, and what I'm thinking of is a Formative Assessment. :nice: Yep - that's the difference - the main aim of formative assessment is to provide the learner with feedback on their progress.

I've just submitted an assignment (amongst others) on summative and formative assessment on a course I teach - hope I've passed!

David Franklin
9th-May-2005, 01:44 PM
I remain throughly sceptical that the same solution would work without changing the ethos of Ceroc (for the worse) or even, in fact, that there's a problem that needs fixing.The thing I'd like us to consider taking from Australia is having a more demanding beginners class (or possibly an improvers class, but that might be logistically difficult). The reason is not so much "so they don't pollute the intermediate class", but because the beginners get so much better teaching (with direct help from the taxi-dancers :worthy: ); it seems a shame not to make the most of that by taking things further than current "6 beginners classes". It's all very well talking about frame, tension and compression, but it's very different getting literal hands-on feedback from a trained taxi-dancer.

Conversely, it seems the intermediate class not only has to span a very large range of abilities, but there's relatively little help given. I think the 'consolidation' classes for beginners are a great thing, but it does mean the taxi-dancers aren't there during the intermediate class. Which means not only can they not help during the class, but they may not be able to help after the class either. In contrast, when I started doing intermediate classes, I know I got a lot of help from the taxi-dancers.

In terms of "testing" and "safety", I don't think there's much of a problem with current intermediate classes, although I must say I'm uncomfortable at the idea of someone doing 6 beginners classes and learning a seducer, or a backhander, or a Columbian. (I'd think less than 1% of beginner-intermediates would manage a Columbian, but on t'other hand it's not particularly dangerous). Without any form of testing/segregation, that's probably about as far as you can go with moves that are potentially dangerous though - I've not seen a ballroom drop taught even moderately well in a standard MJ class.

There's also the question of spoiling the class for others. Currently a lot of people can do the intermediate class standing on their head, so if they get a beginner or two, it's no biggie, they can usually help the beginner, and it doesn't totally disrupt their learning experience. But if you start trying to have more difficult classes, you have a lot fewer people who can "manage" with a beginner, and a lot more people who are left struggling. The beginner probably doesn't have much fun either!

El Salsero Gringo
9th-May-2005, 02:07 PM
The thing I'd like us to consider taking from Australia is having a more demanding beginners class (or possibly an improvers class, but that might be logistically difficult). The reason is not so much "so they don't pollute the intermediate class", but because the beginners get so much better teaching (with direct help from the taxi-dancers :worthy: ); David,

In what way is the teaching better? How do the taxi-dancers help more? In what ways should the beginners classes be more demanding? Is the difference compatible with the emphasis of UK Ceroc as "fun and easy to learn"? Maybe I'm just seeing things, but the UK website www.ceroc.com seems to place more emphasis on getting people off the ground with some kind of dance (in its loosest definition) whereas the two Australian sites www.cerocaustralia.com.au and www.ceroc.com.au don't, and I wonder if this is evidence of a cultural difference between the two. It strikes me that you're in an ideal position to judge since you've seen both systems at work.

David Bailey
9th-May-2005, 02:26 PM
Just what is the problem you are trying to fix by arranging tests in Ceroc?
Good question (don't you just hate those?).

OK, my motivation is a feeling that many intermediate classes have more "problems" than beginners' classes.

The single criteria of "12 weeks' classes", I believe, may constrain many teachers in what they teach. Because they may have a lack of confidence in the ability of a class, or clarity about that level of ability, means that most teachers will go down the safe route.

So, to use a previous example, most teachers won't teach the Columbian, as they know their class may hash it up (of course, the superb teachers and demonstrators will breeze through that move with style :) )

Some more structure and information about the levels of pupils in a class could help teachers target the classes more appropriately.

This may well also be an argument for having more "levels", I know, but I believe assessments could help. if done right, to promote a minimum standard for intermediate classes. This could lead to better classes, with less problems for dancer and teacher, and of course eventually World Peace.

Or not.

It's just a suggestion, and could I admit go horribly wrong:

The big turn off, for me, at the salsa classes I have attended was the grading structure. Everybody trying to get better meant that few were interested in dancing with, or helping , those of a lower grade. I ran into the same experience, but even worse, at the ballroom classes I attended.
That's a very good contra-argument, I'd certainly not want to see that in MJ...

David Franklin
9th-May-2005, 02:53 PM
In what way is the teaching better? How do the taxi-dancers help more?I think perhaps I was unclear - I was talking about the UK teaching of beginner v.s. intermediate. In other words, we teach UK beginners better than UK intermediates, because UK beginners get much more direct feedback and guidance (from taxi-dancers) than intermediates (who don't get help from the taxis). I wasn't comparing against the Australian taxi-dancers, and although individual dancers were very helpful (Gary :flower: ), I don't actually recall whether they even had taxi-dancers at the classes I visited. Does that make more sense?

In what ways should the beginners classes be more demanding? Is the difference compatible with the emphasis of UK Ceroc as "fun and easy to learn"?I'm not sure I really saw enough to answer this (I only did 2 or 3 classes). Let me describe the class first:
The beginners class I went was about the same as an easy-ish UK intermediate class. It contained a pretzel (or variation thereof) and a basket lean, and had about 6 or 7 moves in total. The teaching was faster paced than over here, with a lot less padding - there was maybe 3 seconds pause between getting your next partner and practising the move with her. The result was a lot more repetitions of each move in a given period of time.
I remember at the time being quite surprised what was being taught to the beginners, and particularly that it was taught with relatively little time spent on explanation compared with the UK. However, everyone seemed happy and I didn't notice anyone having any trouble with it. That's the key point - if you can teach more complex moves, leans etc. in a beginners class and have everyone follow them, I can't really see any downside. But it did surprise me that everyone did so well, and I'm not really sure why they did. Maybe we underestimate our beginners. A more complex possible explanation is cultural - I think dancers there are quicker to jump in and give advice than we are over here. (Not because we're unfriendly in the UK, but because our MJ culture is less judgemental, so people tend not to give advice/corrections unless asked for them).

Where you did see a bigger difference was in the intermediate class. It was expected people knew how to do drops (i.e. taking/supporting weight). There were lots of moves with footwork, without the "Don't panic everyone - footwork coming up. But we'll explain it really s l o w l y..." routine you usually have over here. But, as counterpoint, I didn't get one of the footwork moves, and to be honest, I wasn't really sure how I was supposed to get it. To explain further, I had maybe 2 minutes of being taught it, and after that was just desparately faking it to try not to upset my partner too much. I didn't get far enough to remember it, or practise it, so I'm not sure how I would have got better at it.

As a more general comment on the speed of teaching, for the intermediate class, a lot of the learning seemed to come from the other students rather than the teacher. By the time the teacher stopped explaining, it seemed only a very few people had it down pat, but during the rotations and repetitions, gradually we would all 'evolve' to doing the correct move. Again - I'm not totally sure how this worked; one thing was definitely that people are a lot more ready to give comments and advice over there!


Maybe I'm just seeing things, but the UK website www.ceroc.com seems to place more emphasis on getting people off the ground with some kind of dance (in its loosest definition) whereas the two Australian sites www.cerocaustralia.com.au and www.ceroc.com.au don't, and I wonder if this is evidence of a cultural difference between the two.I think there is a bit of a difference; it's probably true to say they are a bit more competitive, and we are a little more "doesn't matter how you dance as long as you enjoy yourself". But I don't think the difference is actually as big as you'd think from the websites. To be honest, it's www.ceroc.com that is a bit of an outlier - this forum isn't terribly different from the Australian one.

El Salsero Gringo
9th-May-2005, 03:05 PM
I remember at the time being quite surprised what was being taught to the beginners, and particularly that it was taught with relatively little time spent on explanation compared with the UK. However, everyone seemed happy and I didn't notice anyone having any trouble with it. That's the key point - if you can teach more complex moves, leans etc. in a beginners class and have everyone follow them, I can't really see any downside. But it did surprise me that everyone did so well, and I'm not really sure why they did. Maybe we underestimate our beginners.And maybe, just maybe, Australians who would have liked to learn Ceroc a bit slower like we do here in the UK and have decided they don't want to be confused and humiliated by the fast pace of the beginner's classes there have just stopped attending...


I think there is a bit of a difference; it's probably true to say they are a bit more competitive, and we are a little more "doesn't matter how you dance as long as you enjoy yourself". But I don't think the difference is actually as big as you'd think from the websites. To be honest, it's www.ceroc.com that is a bit of an outlier - this forum isn't terribly different from the Australian one.And we all know how well this forum represents the notional average Ceroc (UK) customer, don't we?

I'd say that the different emphases from the companies promoting the dance (if I'm not imagining it) encourages a different kind of customer. And that's why I don't think it's reasonable to extrapolate from the Australian experience of introducing tests for intermediate classes.

David Franklin
9th-May-2005, 03:48 PM
And maybe, just maybe, Australians who would have liked to learn Ceroc a bit slower like we do here in the UK and have decided they don't want to be confused and humiliated by the fast pace of the beginner's classes there have just stopped attending...Of course, it's hard to prove a negative. But the class was very busy, and (as memory serves) some people were definitely there for the first time. There were definitely the "nervous giggles" with the pretzel and lean which you get when people are thinking "ooh - that looks hard". And I really didn't notice anyone having significant trouble with the class.
we all know how well this forum represents the notional average Ceroc (UK) customer, don't we?Yes we do. But then most dance sites are largely, if not entirely, aimed at the enthusiasts. The main Ceroc site is by far the most 'corporate' dance website I've seen.
I'd say that the different emphases from the companies promoting the dance (if I'm not imagining it) encourages a different kind of customer. And that's why I don't think it's reasonable to extrapolate from the Australian experience of introducing tests for intermediate classes.Having been there, I'd say you're wrong about different customer bases. Or at least, the differences are not terribly significant. Probably more significant to your point about tests is I'd say they are much more culturally open to taking and giving criticism. My point was less about tests and more about making better use of the unique learning opportunity we give to beginners (with the close tuition from the taxi-dancers), but for what it's worth, my preference for managing "testing" would be be for beginners to be told not to go up to the intermediate class until a taxi-dancer or teacher tells them to. I don't think there should be a particular "assessment" - a decent taxi-dancer should be able to tell from what happens in the class and/or freestyle.

David Bailey
9th-May-2005, 03:58 PM
my preference for managing "testing" would be be for beginners to be told not to go up to the intermediate class until a taxi-dancer or teacher tells them to. I don't think there should be a particular "assessment" - a decent taxi-dancer should be able to tell from what happens in the class and/or freestyle.
Well, that's very boringly practical of you :(

I was envisaging a 2-hour written exam with practical and oral components, sent off for marking to external invigilators, and turned around in, oh, a month or three. Exam fee set at, oh, £75, no re-applications allowed for a year. Something like that...

But OK, what the hell, let's go with your suggestion.

Yliander
9th-May-2005, 04:08 PM
They aren't ready for what? What exactly is different from beginners to intermediates? In an intermediate class there is a minimum level of skill expected by the teacher - these are things like tension, lead/follow, freestyle are the main ones that spring to mind - if a student moves to intermediate with no tension and no concept of lead follow they are going to find intermediate class very daunting.

these concepts are covered generally in the beginners class - but are covered in more detail by the Consolidation teachers.

CerocPerth doesn't have blue and gold cards which Ceroc Modern Jive (Nicky Haslam) have for higher levels.

what is it that scares so many of you about a such a simple assessment for beginners moving to intermediate?

Yliander
9th-May-2005, 04:12 PM
but for what it's worth, my preference for managing "testing" would be be for beginners to be told not to go up to the intermediate class until a taxi-dancer or teacher tells them to. I don't think there should be a particular "assessment" - a decent taxi-dancer should be able to tell from what happens in the class and/or freestyle.you have pretty much described our assessment process - except that it's only when a teacher tells them to - and puts it in writing by signing their consolidation card - and hence rewarding them with a discount on their first intermediate class.

David Bailey
9th-May-2005, 04:20 PM
CerocPerth doesn't have blue and gold cards which Ceroc Modern Jive (Nicky Haslam) have for higher levels.

Woo-hoo, colour-coded cards!! :)


what is it that scares so many of you about a such a simple assessment for beginners moving to intermediate?
I think that's a little harsh. I don't believe any of the Contras are scared, they simply have a different viewpoint. They're wrong, of course... :whistle:

Seriously, I suspect the Anti-Testers have an affection for the "all muck in together" democracy of the MJ scene, an aversion to any perceived elitism (both of which I share), and a feeling that introducing tests / assessments / inquisitions will cause damage to this atmosphere. There could also be a British cultural thing here at work, in not wanting people to fail, and an aversion to change, which everyone has in any walk of life.

However, as I'm a "Pro-tester" (!), I'm probably not the best one to comment...

Personally, I think the UK scene is robust enough to accept and thrive on such changes and challenges, but I could be wrong.

Dreadful Scathe
9th-May-2005, 04:43 PM
In an intermediate class there is a minimum level of skill expected by the teacher - these are things like tension, lead/follow, freestyle are the main ones that spring to mind - if a student moves to intermediate with no tension and no concept of lead follow they are going to find intermediate class very daunting.

More importantly, if they fail to have those basic concepts they can easily spoil intermediate classes for others - as well as not get as much from it as they should. A simple review/test/assesment or whatever you want to call it is a benefit for everyone involved. Often in Ceroc the taxi dancers do this, and the problem is, as David F pointed out, that there is nothing to stop the beginners labelling themselves intermediate and losing the extra help they really should be getting from the taxi dancers. A simple review is all thats needed...but... many would ignore it anyway ... unless you made it mandatory but i don't think that would be a good idea you may lose some people because of it and it would be a shame if someone became disillusioned. Mostly though, the rotation system makes up for the "bad apples" in intermediate who ignored or didnt seek taxi dancer or teacher advice and are struggling - whos to say though, that the intensive learning curve doesnt make them better dancers quicker - it does in some cases.

Whats much more anoying is the advanced classes - if you go to one and you rotate onto someone who clearly isnt advanced !

Conclusion: I agree with everyone and today is Monday :)

Yliander
9th-May-2005, 04:55 PM
I think that's a little harsh.my apologies I didn't mean to be harsh - just that most of what I have heard on this thread has been of the EKK thats not the way we do it, and I don't like change nature.

El Salsero Gringo
9th-May-2005, 05:35 PM
What is it that scares so many of you about a such a simple assessment for beginners moving to intermediate?I'm just scared I'd fail and be stuck in beginner's classes for the rest of my life.

David Bailey
9th-May-2005, 07:36 PM
I'm just scared I'd fail and be stuck in beginner's classes for the rest of my life.

Nah, you're just scared people will laugh at your hats...

Baruch
9th-May-2005, 09:44 PM
Did it do you any harm to wait? Clearly not. You moved up when you were confident that you were ready. Just what is the problem you are trying to fix by arranging tests in Ceroc?
People moving up before they are ready.

MartinHarper
9th-May-2005, 11:12 PM
People moving up before they are ready.

I guess that could be a problem for one of several reasons:
1) A dancer moves up too soon, has trouble, gets discouraged and leaves.
2) A dancer moves up too soon, so she doesn't learn as quickly as she would if she spent more time in consolidation/review/progression/whatever
3) A dancer moves up too soon, and she hinders the learning of other dancers
4) A dancer moves up too soon, and she injures other dancers (or aggravates their existing injuries).

If you had to pick one of these reasons as the single most compelling argument for tests, whether compulsorary or optional, which would you choose?
(general question - not just to Baruch)

bigdjiver
10th-May-2005, 01:29 AM
And so to tonght. Tonight our regular teacher announced that the intermediate class was going to be simple, bcause it was going to be given by a trainee teacher who would just be teaching the basic intermediate moves that he was required to know for his exam. She said that the beginners were welcome to attend the intermediate class instead of the refresher, and some, even first timers, did so.
The moves were (apologies for wrong names & poor descriptions):
1) basket spin-out
2) firstmove block into log walks,
3) two handed return to shoulder block and spin out
4) Manspin with double spin.

Moves 2 and 3 took me several years to get, just coming across them a few times a year, and not getting them on the night.

In the event I only saw one guy in real difficulties and I saw nobody drop out. As far as I could see the inexperienced received good support from the regulars. This was despite the first third of the lesson being of a very poor standard because nerves got the better of the trainee. Fortunately he found something, and jumped instantaneously up a few gears and did OK for the rest of the lesson.

Judged on what I could see in that class the 12 week rule and the idea of qualifying tests both seemed utterly redundant, however, I believe it only worked so well because the class had good experience in those moves.

The beginner class included the shoulder drop, which I believe is as complex as most intermediate moves.

Baruch
10th-May-2005, 01:34 AM
I guess that could be a problem for one of several reasons:
1) A dancer moves up too soon, has trouble, gets discouraged and leaves.
2) A dancer moves up too soon, so she doesn't learn as quickly as she would if she spent more time in consolidation/review/progression/whatever
3) A dancer moves up too soon, and she hinders the learning of other dancers
4) A dancer moves up too soon, and she injures other dancers (or aggravates their existing injuries).

If you had to pick one of these reasons as the single most compelling argument for tests, whether compulsorary or optional, which would you choose?
(general question - not just to Baruch)
All of them are good arguments IMO. I don't think it's as simple as just picking one of them.

It seems to me that some people just want to run before they can walk (or even crawl, in some cases). It's not about setting a time limit like Ceroc does - is it 12 weeks they recommend before moving up to intermediate? I know a few people who moved up to intermediate much sooner than that and took to it like a duck to water, but I also know one or two who've been dancing for months and months, moved up to intermediate but would probably be better off practising the basics in the consolidation class instead. Surely there should be some criteria other than just how long someone's been doing the beginners' class, because we all learn at different rates.

Of course, none of this takes account of those who are quite happy in the beginners' class, and have absolutely no intention of moving on to the intermediate class. I know a few of those too, and as long as they're enjoying themselves, there's nothing wrong with that.

Gary
10th-May-2005, 02:47 AM
...the Australian experience of introducing tests for intermediate classes.
Not every Australian company does this. CA does, Yliander's company in Perth does, CMJ doesn't (although CMJ has tests for Intermediate/Advanced). Are there no UK companies which do?

TheTramp
10th-May-2005, 03:03 AM
Not every Australian company does this. CA does, Yliander's company in Perth does, CMJ doesn't (although CMJ has tests for Intermediate/Advanced). Are there no UK companies which do?
Not that I'm aware of - and I've danced most places in the UK. Least, I've never been required to prove my beginner status. Maybe it's just that obvious?!?

David Bailey
10th-May-2005, 08:37 AM
Not that I'm aware of - and I've danced most places in the UK. Least, I've never been required to prove my beginner status. Maybe it's just that obvious?!?
What, that you're a beginner? (Sorry, couldn't resist :flower: )

I want that gold-coloured card, damnit!




...
3) A dancer moves up too soon, and she hinders the learning of other dancers
...

If you had to pick one of these reasons as the single most compelling argument for tests, whether compulsorary or optional, which would you choose?

That one.

Yliander
10th-May-2005, 08:46 AM
I want that gold-coloured card, damnit!is scared of a gold card - means she would have to compete at advance - am going to hopefully get my blue card after this weekends Perth comps though

El Salsero Gringo
10th-May-2005, 09:17 AM
is scared of a gold card - means she would have to compete at advance - am going to hopefully get my blue card after this weekends Perth comps thoughA blue membership card? Woo hoo.

If we ever have this nonsense in the UK, I am going to give up Ceroc and take up formation basket-weaving instead.

(Oh, and before you all start clapping: no, that doesn't mean I won't be visiting the Forum any more.)

Dreadful Scathe
10th-May-2005, 09:27 AM
is scared of a gold card - means she would have to compete at advance - am going to hopefully get my blue card after this weekends Perth comps though
Can you send me my blue card as soon as possible please ? :)

David Bailey
10th-May-2005, 10:23 AM
If we ever have this nonsense in the UK, I am going to give up Ceroc and take up formation basket-weaving instead.
Tempting though it is to make some cheap shot, I've done that already, several times in this thread alone...

Despite my keen pro-assessment position, I'm really not keen on a visible indication of "status" such as colour cards, I think these could well lead to elitism here, although I accept this may well not be the case in Australia.

I know I certainly couldn't be trusted not to flash my gold card if I had one :) Although I'd probably have a "HOW long have you been doing this? Is that all you can do?" colour card, maybe dirty-brown or something...

As TheTramp says, it should be pretty clear what sort of dancer you are by, well, watching you dance.

Assessments and reviews don't have to produce coloured cards / trophies / certificates, they just have to review or assess progress.

Lou
10th-May-2005, 10:38 AM
Can you send me my blue card as soon as possible please ? :)
And I want a black one, to show that I'm not permitted to dance with anyone wearing beige. :)

Yliander
10th-May-2005, 10:47 AM
Can you send me my blue card as soon as possible please ? :)Think a much better solution is that you come visit and collect it yourself :wink:

DavidB
10th-May-2005, 10:51 AM
Are there no UK companies which do?Ceroc used to. In the dim and distant past, you had to show that you knew the 9 basic moves before doing an intermediate class. James & Janie both used to enforce this.

Gadget
10th-May-2005, 10:56 AM
I guess that could be a problem for one of several reasons:
Some counter arguments...
1) A dancer moves up too soon, has trouble, gets discouraged and leaves.
- A dancer moves up quickly, has trouble, gets determined to get it right and is hooked.
- A dancer moves up quickly, has trouble, drops back to beginner for a while before trying it again.
- A dancer moves up quickly, dosn't have too much trouble.

2) A dancer moves up too soon, so she doesn't learn as quickly as she would if she spent more time in consolidation/review/progression/whatever
- A dancer moves up quickly, dosn't learn as quick in classes but has more fun, dances with better dancers, and is introduced to better dancers that they will dance with in freestyle.
- A dancer moves up quickly, dosn't learn the basics as quick, but once learned picks up the more 'advanced' stuff quicker than most due to exposure.
- A dancer moves up quickly and learns quicker.

3) A dancer moves up too soon, and she hinders the learning of other dancers
- A dancer moves up quickly, and the other dancers have to learn how to execute moves properly using lead/follow rather than copy/paste.
- A dancer moves up quickly and helps other dancers learn where/how the move can go wrong.

4) A dancer moves up too soon, and she{they} injures other dancers (or aggravates their existing injuries).
- The new dancer realises their potential to cause harm and from then on become a very considerate and protective dancer.
- A dancer with an existing injury helps the newer dancer lead/follow in a more gentle manor.


If you had to pick one of these reasons as the single most compelling argument for tests, whether compulsorary or optional, which would you choose?These are reasons for having tests? Why not have a test to see if the dancer can perform every beginner move accuratly? Test to see if a lady anticipates? A leader is clear in their lead? If they can dance to the music? ... wait a second... what exactly do "advanced" workshops and concepts cover again... Oh yea :rolleyes:

Yliander
10th-May-2005, 11:00 AM
Some counter arguments...
A dancer moves up quickly, has trouble, drops back to beginner for a while before trying it again.how many people do you know would voluntarily demote themselves??


4) A dancer moves up too soon, and she{they} injures other dancers (or aggravates their existing injuries).[/i]
- The new dancer realises their potential to cause harm and from then on become a very considerate and protective dancer.
- A dancer with an existing injury helps the newer dancer lead/follow in a more gentle manor. or causes permenant damage to another dancer.

Gadget all your responses required students in the class to do assume a "semi teacher" role - when I pay for a class I don't mind being helpful but I would object to being forced in to that sort of role - I have paid for the class I am there to to learn - if I wanted to be teaching i would be teaching.


These are reasons for having tests? Why not have a test to see if the dancer can perform every beginner move accuratly? Test to see if a lady anticipates? A leader is clear in their lead? If they can dance to the music? ... wait a second... what exactly do "advanced" workshops and concepts cover again... Oh yea :rolleyes: Well we introduce our beginners to the basics of these concepts from day one - especially in consolidation classes and a basic (very basic) grasp of these concepts is assumed by our teachers in an intermediate class

Swinging bee
10th-May-2005, 11:25 AM
All this hot air is contributing to global warming...Hey dancing is supposed to be fun...

David Bailey
10th-May-2005, 11:32 AM
Some counter arguments...

3) A dancer moves up too soon, and she hinders the learning of other dancers
- A dancer moves up quickly, and the other dancers have to learn how to execute moves properly using lead/follow rather than copy/paste.
- A dancer moves up quickly and helps other dancers learn where/how the move can go wrong.
As a general principle, I don't believe good dancers learn as much from dancing with bad dancers as vice versa. (ie bad dancers learn more from dancing with good dancers). So whilst dancing with beginners is a Good Thing generally, it's more because this helps to teaches them, not you. Gross simplification, but that seems logical to me.

Also, if a dancer has significant problems in a class, this causes problems for everyone he / she dances with in that class. So there's a detrimental impact, not just on that dancer, but on much of the class.



4) A dancer moves up too soon, and she{they} injures other dancers (or aggravates their existing injuries).
- The new dancer realises their potential to cause harm and from then on become a very considerate and protective dancer.
- A dancer with an existing injury helps the newer dancer lead/follow in a more gentle manor.

Yes, but the injuries have been done - so that's not much consolation for the injured parties. Again, better not to do the injuries in the first place.

Example: I did a class last night with a yo-yo catapult, which involved some arm-twisting (my arm) and tension. I've got a bad shoulder, and so was trying to get away with as little tension as possible, but a couple of my partners, who perhaps shouldn't have been in that class, insisted on yanking it backwards a little. I don't think it's aggravated the problem, but it easily could have. A "First do no harm" assessment would maybe have helped here, and I could have lived without the chance of sacrificing my health to teach someone how not to do it...


what exactly do "advanced" workshops and concepts cover again... Oh yea :rolleyes:
Some people (e.g. me) have family or other commitments which mean they can't easily find time for workshops - they're not something we should assume everyone can and should do. This stuff should be catered to within the class structure, I believe.

David Bailey
10th-May-2005, 11:33 AM
All this hot air is contributing to global warming...Hey dancing is supposed to be fun...
If people keep on being gratuitously reasonable at me, I'm going to get very annoyed.

El Salsero Gringo
10th-May-2005, 11:36 AM
Some people (e.g. me) have family or other commitments which mean they can't easily find time for workshops - they're not something we should assume everyone can and should do. This stuff should be catered to within the class structure, I believe.One respected member of the MJ community was recently trying to persuade me that Ceroc deliberately don't teach any technique in classes so they can sell you workshops as well. I spent a lot of energy trying to persuade him that no one in an organisation dedicated to teaching could possibly be that underhand.

David Franklin
10th-May-2005, 12:22 PM
Some counter arguments...
3) A dancer moves up too soon, and she hinders the learning of other dancers
- A dancer moves up quickly, and the other dancers have to learn how to execute moves properly using lead/follow rather than copy/paste.
- A dancer moves up quickly and helps other dancers learn where/how the move can go wrong.But if, for example, the dancer has no frame and the move requires one, what do you do? Putting aside that it's not my direct responsibility, and that I really don't like giving unsolicited advice, the middle of the class is a very poor place to teach something tangential to the main class. (There's not enough time, it's very confusing doing something different from the people around you, you have to try to talk over the teacher, etc...).


4) A dancer moves up too soon, and she{they} injures other dancers (or aggravates their existing injuries).
- The new dancer realises their potential to cause harm and from then on become a very considerate and protective dancer.The question is at what point the risk of injuries becomes prohibitive. As far as I'm concerned, at some point, you have to draw a line, and you have to say "you need to be able to do X,Y,Z competently to do this class, and I need some evidence this is the case". I think there are valid arguments about where that line is, (and it might be all the current intermediate classes fall below that line), but you don't seem to want a line at all.

bigdjiver
10th-May-2005, 01:21 PM
how many people do you know would voluntarily demote themselves??I have known lots of people who have tried the intermediate and found it beyond them, and either given up the intermediate class for a while, or just given up MJ.


Gadget all your responses required students in the class to do assume a "semi teacher" role - when I pay for a class I don't mind being helpful but I would object to being forced in to that sort of role - I have paid for the class I am there to to learn - Who is "forcing" you?

You may have managed to learn every move and principle from teacher, but people like me still need the occasional bit of help from partner even after years of classes. The general helping one another ethos is one of the things I love about MJ.

It has just occurred to me that there was plenty of partner help going on last night whilst the trainee teacher was floundering. I reported that he suddenly raised his game, and was fine from then on. Just perhaps it was because he saw that the class was actually getting the routine, beginners included, and he got the confidence from that success.

Dreadful Scathe
10th-May-2005, 01:41 PM
Think a much better solution is that you come visit and collect it yourself :wink:
Ok, Ill look up flights to Perth later :)

MartinHarper
10th-May-2005, 01:56 PM
In the UK, nothing particularly worthwhile is taught in intermediate Ceroc classes. As Gus reminded us a little while ago, Ceroc teachers are "there to teach FUN!", rather than anything related to dancing well. Accordingly, I am not worried about beginners disrupting the learning of more advanced dancers, as I don't figure they learn very much anyway.

Some intermediate Ceroc classes "teach" dips and drops, and I can see that there's an element of risk in doing those with people, such as myself, who have never been taught basic technique for dips and drops. However, basic technique for dips and drops is taught in neither beginner Ceroc classes, nor beginner review/progression/consolidation/review classes. Accordingly, I don't see that testing would offer any benefits here.

The other possibility is poor technique aggravating existing injuries - such as a woman who unknowingly takes ugly back steps and yanks her partner's arm. I suppose this gets fixed in the end by feedback from taxi dancers and/or obstreperous intermediates. So a test could help here, by providing that feedback in a more controlled way.

There is an argument that people hinder their own learning by moving up too quickly, as they lack the benefit of doing the review classes. I would be more convinced by this if I had been to review classes that taught things not taught in either beginner or intermediate classes. I would be more convinced by this if I saw advanced dancers going back to review classes to brush up on whatever things are taught there.

It sounds like things are different in Australia, from what Yliander says, so I can certainly see that tests are a useful tool in her situation. For UK MJ teachers who feel that they teach something more substantial than "FUN!" in their classes, I can see the benefit in introducing similar tests.

Gadget
10th-May-2005, 02:23 PM
how many people do you know would voluntarily demote themselves??I would. If I was there, thinking I could handle it, and then discovered I couldn't - I would drop back down. But I doubt I would be there in the first place unless acting on another person's advice.


or causes permenant damage to another dancer.? Any move that has the potential to cause permenant damage would be highlighted from stage. Or am I placing too much trust in teachers? If there is this potential (not highlighted by a teacher) in an "intermediate" level, then there is the same potential at the "beginner" level. Or are intermediate dancers more susceptible?
If the potential is highlighted, then who is to blame for the pupil not listening? Inexperiance of the class is no excuse - doubtless there would be many within the class who have not performed the move. Any potential for injury should be highlighted to your partner as well - "I've got a sore XXX, so I'm not going to perform the move as it is done from stage" should prevent your partner from trying to force you into the move.


Gadget all your responses required students in the class to do assume a "semi teacher" role - when I pay for a class I don't mind being helpful but I would object to being forced in to that sort of role - I have paid for the class I am there to to learn - if I wanted to be teaching i would be teaching.? Not really - it involves the students being willing to learn from each other rather than just the teacher. I don't ask how I can lead a move better: I feel it. I don't ask how that particular styling thing is done: I watch it. Learning should be an active role for the pupil; not a passive one.
If you feel that your partner requires additional tutorage, point them in the direction of a taxi/teacher. They want to learn from the teacher as well (they are in the class) why assume that they want to learn from you? Dosn't stop you learning from them.


As a general principle, I don't believe good dancers learn as much from dancing with bad dancers as vice versa. (ie bad dancers learn more from dancing with good dancers). So whilst dancing with beginners is a Good Thing generally, it's more because this helps to teaches them, not you. Gross simplification, but that seems logical to me.Depends on what you want to learn. Personally, I think I have learned more from dancing with beginners and "difficult" dancers than from anything I have been taught from stage. They teach me how to lead rather than the actions to make in order to perform a move. I don't think I have learned much from dancing with really good dancers other than how much fun you can have with musical interpritation.


Also, if a dancer has significant problems in a class, this causes problems for everyone he / she dances with in that class. So there's a detrimental impact, not just on that dancer, but on much of the class.? And this is isolated to intermediate classes? If a dancer has "significant problems", then the teacher should note it from stage and seek them out. As to affecting the whole class: that's why we rotate - and you now have a good example of how not to do a move.


Example: I did a class last night with a yo-yo catapult, which involved some arm-twisting (my arm) and tension. ~ A "First do no harm" assessment would maybe have helped here, and I could have lived without the chance of sacrificing my health to teach someone how not to do it...
Curious: on the "yo-yo" part, was your palm away from your partner? Try changing it to face towards the floor with a fractionally bent arm. I don't know why, but for me it puts less pressure on the shoulder. On the 'lean' part of the cattapult, actually bend at the waist so that your arms are not going back so much fromyour shoulders (use one leg to match the angle of the bend behind you so you're not "sticking your bum out") And again on the pull-through and release I find that the palm to the floor helps.
How did I find this out? Dancing with beginners.


Some people (e.g. me) have family or other commitments which mean they can't easily find time for workshops - they're not something we should assume everyone can and should do. This stuff should be catered to within the class structure, I believeCommitments! Don't talk to me about commitments! {:D:rolleyes:} I think that a lot of it is covered in classes - you just have to watch for it and make the most of any workshops you can attend. I would love to go to classes three or four nights a week, partys and workshops every weekend, weekenders and dance holidays every month... but reality is that family and finances only allow toe to be dipped in now & again. :tears:


But if, for example, the dancer has no frame and the move requires one, what do you do?You compensate. What is a 'frame'? It's just a fancy name for a connection that uses more than just your hands. What do you do when a dancer dosn't respond to your connection? Make it clearer and firmer. You shouldn't have to teach over the teacher; two or three words should be enough to get the connection eg "give me some resistance"


The question is at what point the risk of injuries becomes prohibitive. As far as I'm concerned, at some point, you have to draw a line, and you have to say "you need to be able to do X,Y,Z competently to do this class, and I need some evidence this is the case". I think there are valid arguments about where that line is, (and it might be all the current intermediate classes fall below that line), but you don't seem to want a line at all.In a class: no: no line. I don't think that anything should be taught in a standard class that has a potential to severely injure your partner. If there is risk of injury, then I trust the teacher to say so and give a safety speil - new intermediates should be able to do the move as safely as advanced dancers. (With alternatives taught for those who don't want to perform the move.)
In a workshop enviroment it's completley different and should be screened as necissary.

Yliander
10th-May-2005, 02:52 PM
Ok, Ill look up flights to Perth later :) :clap: :clap: Look forward to it!!

David Bailey
10th-May-2005, 04:56 PM
Any potential for injury should be highlighted to your partner as well - "I've got a sore XXX, so I'm not going to perform the move as it is done from stage" should prevent your partner from trying to force you into the move.
There was nothing wrong with the move - it was the yanking back-of-my-arm mistakes made by a couple of people who caused me concern. But the move itself was fine - although I'll try your suggestion in future if it comes up, thanks for that.


? And this is isolated to intermediate classes? If a dancer has "significant problems", then the teacher should note it from stage and seek them out.
Good grief, there were 120+ people, in 4 rows, in the class last night - to expect a teacher to make note of any particular problems, for any particular person, whilst teaching and managing a class is, shall we say, a little optimistic. Especially because the problems may not be obvious. The best you could hope for is noticing if several people are making the same mistake, I think.


As to affecting the whole class: that's why we rotate

What, so lots of people are miserable instead of one? :whistle:


and you now have a good example of how not to do a move.
Assuming you know how to do it in the first place, of course - otherwise it'll just add to the confusion if some people do it one way and some another.


new intermediates should be able to do the move as safely as advanced dancers.
Assuming they all know the basics - which we can't assume without testing them.... Hey, we're back to the start! Do I get a bonue point for being on-topic?

Heather
11th-May-2005, 08:25 AM
Noting with great interest that both Gadget and Martin Harper refer in their post to the "dancer who moves up and cannot manage the moves" as a "she".
So what exactly does that say about them !!!!!!! :angry:
Oh, sorry, I forgot, men are perfect!!!!! :angry:

:hug:
Heather
xx
I suggest using the pronoun " they" or " them", thereby offending no-one!!!
Anyway we're always told in Ceroc that " it's the MAN's fault !"

David Bailey
11th-May-2005, 08:32 AM
Noting with great interest that both Gadget and Martin Harper refer in their post to the "dancer who moves up and cannot manage the moves" as a "she".
So what exactly does that say about them !!!!!!! :angry:

That they're, err, men? And writing from a man's (leader's) perspective. As indeed am I.

OK, they should be a little more careful, but I think most people would assume the wider group, I certainly don't think there's any follower-bashing going on. But then, I'm a leader...


Anyway we're always told in Ceroc that " it's the MAN's fault !"
Yes, that phrase was No. 1 in my Top 10 smokescreens (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5050&highlight=Top) thread a few weeks ago. I wouldn't support such a statement as definitive, in other words...

David Bailey
11th-May-2005, 08:48 AM
In the UK, nothing particularly worthwhile is taught in intermediate Ceroc classes.
Whoaaaa there dobbin, that's a bit of an extreme statement.

I can get some worth from most intermediate classes. But it's rarely as simple as "Oh look, new move, that's fun!", it's usually more like "Ah, that handhold / lead's got interesting possibilities for leading into my patented XYZ move". In other words, I have to think about it. Which is a good thing.

I'd agree that, for reasons I touch on elsewhere (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=120123&postcount=10) and other places (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=119794&postcount=37), intermediate classes aren't as good as they could be, but they're not worthless.


As Gus reminded us a little while ago, Ceroc teachers are "there to teach FUN!"
I remember. I also remember asking how you can teach FUN. 'Coz I'd like to learn :)



The other possibility is poor technique aggravating existing injuries - such as a woman who unknowingly takes ugly back steps and yanks her partner's arm.

:yeah: Exactly.


There is an argument that people hinder their own learning by moving up too quickly, as they lack the benefit of doing the review classes. I would be more convinced by this if I had been to review classes that taught things not taught in either beginner or intermediate classes. I would be more convinced by this if I saw advanced dancers going back to review classes to brush up on whatever things are taught there.
Possibly we're confusing UK consolidation classes (for novice beginners) with Australian review classes (for advanced beginners). So effectively, we already have acknowledged 4 levels of dancer with these 4 types of class:
1. Novice beginners: do the beginners class and (in UK) consolidation class
2. Beginners: do the beginners class, may do (in UK) consolidation class
3. Advanced beginners: may do the beginners class, (in Oz) do review class
4. Intermediates: do the intermediates class (everywhere!)

This thread seems mainly to be talking about "Stage 3" dancers, I think.

Yliander
11th-May-2005, 08:58 AM
Possibly we're confusing UK consolidation classes (for novice beginners) with Australian review classes (for advanced beginners). So effectively, we already have acknowledged 4 levels of dancer with these 4 types of class:
1. Novice beginners: do the beginners class and (in UK) consolidation class
2. Beginners: do the beginners class, may do (in UK) consolidation class
3. Advanced beginners: may do the beginners class, (in Oz) do review class
4. Intermediates: do the intermediates class (everywhere!)

This thread seems mainly to be talking about "Stage 3" dancers, I think.Actually in Asutralia levels 1 & 2 would also do a consolidation/review class

Gadget
11th-May-2005, 01:43 PM
There was nothing wrong with the move - it was the yanking back-of-my-arm mistakes made by a couple of people who caused me concern.I'm asking myself why this would happen, and can come to it being one of three things: the lady is ignoring your lead or your lead is not controlled throught the whole of the move or the timing between you and your partner is off. Each of these can be addressed in your actions.


{spotting one 'bad' dancer} Good grief, there were 120+ people, in 4 rows, in the class last night - to expect a teacher to make note of any particular problems, for any particular person, whilst teaching and managing a class is, shall we say, a little optimistic. Especially because the problems may not be obvious. The best you could hope for is noticing if several people are making the same mistake, I think.If everyone else is doing one thing, and one person doing another, you don't think they will stand out? I would say that it would be harder to spot lots of people going wrong than only a couple.


{and you now have a good example of how not to do a move.} Assuming they all know the basics - which we can't assume without testing them.Do you need to know how to do something right to know that it's wrong? The hardest part is identifying why it's wrong - not that it's wrong in the first place, and that's all a test will show.


Noting with great interest that both Gadget and Martin Harper refer in their post to the "dancer who moves up and cannot manage the moves" as a "she".Hey :( I was just quoting - I noticed and added in the {they} as opposed to "she" - I think that the lead has a lot more potential to damage than the follower.



I can get some worth from most intermediate classes.Depends on whether you are an active student that seeks knowledge, or a passive student that just wants knowledge thrust at them. I get something out of just about every intermediate class, beginner class, dance, and even every rotation. It may be soley to do with that partner, it may be simply not straightening my arm or a subtle shift of weight at a specific point in a move... I'm a "Why" and "Whatif" kind of guy.

I suppose it's the difference between seeking knowledge and seeking understanding - tests tend only to look at knowledge and assume that if the knowledge is there, then the understanding must be. I think that this is one of the main gripes I have with tests. That and you are drawing a line to say red is red and blue is blue, then shoveling 99% of purple people into one or the other.

David Bailey
11th-May-2005, 02:18 PM
I'm asking myself why this would happen, and can come to it being one of three things: the lady is ignoring your lead ...

That one, I believe - and for one person, it was exarcerbated by a, err, less-than-favourable height/weight ratio. Me only being a little blert, and all...



Each of these can be addressed in your actions.
Possibly, but I'm not sure how, with my right arm behind my back in the lead-in to a catapult from a yoyo, I can lead someone to take smaller steps...


If everyone else is doing one thing, and one person doing another, you don't think they will stand out? I would say that it would be harder to spot lots of people going wrong than only a couple.
Well, :worthy: to any teacher who can spot and remember mistakes by one person out of 120, then go and find that person later on, then do the same for, say 20 other people in the class making different mistakes.


Do you need to know how to do something right to know that it's wrong? The hardest part is identifying why it's wrong - not that it's wrong in the first place, and that's all a test will show.
A 3-minute dance-with-teacher session will, I'd hope, show what's wrong, and why it's wrong, with relatively simple corrections fixing problems hopefully. And just "getting-it-wrong" won't necessarily preclude advancement.


I think that the lead has a lot more potential to damage than the follower.
:yeah: totally. Hence "yankers" as a glossary entry in the superb FAQ :)


tests tend only to look at knowledge
In this case, I'd imagine tests will look at practicalities of how a person dances - won't be either knowledge or understanding, but practice.

DavidB
11th-May-2005, 02:30 PM
If everyone else is doing one thing, and one person doing another, you don't think they will stand out?In a typical MJ class - not a chance. At best from the stage you can see the first 3 or 4 couples in each line. After that it is just a mass of heads and arms, in lines that are not straight, doing a move at slightly different times, making mistakes and correcting themselves. With luck you can see if a class finishes a move roughly at the same time.

Now reduce the class down to 10-20 couples, teach from the floor, and walk around, and you can see individual mistakes. That's why they run workshops.

David Franklin
11th-May-2005, 04:15 PM
Possibly, but I'm not sure how, with my right arm behind my back in the lead-in to a catapult from a yoyo, I can lead someone to take smaller steps... :yeah: In fact, I'm wondering why people bother with workshops teaching lead/follow, connection etc., when it can apparently all be picked up by spending 30 seconds with a good intermediate dancer.

El Salsero Gringo
11th-May-2005, 04:31 PM
:yeah: In fact, I'm wondering why people bother with workshops teaching lead/follow, connection etc., when it can apparently all be picked up by spending 30 seconds with a good intermediate dancer.Because there are so few of them around!

David Bailey
11th-May-2005, 04:46 PM
Because there are so few of them around!
Hey, maybe we should test them more then? :whistle:

El Salsero Gringo
11th-May-2005, 05:25 PM
Hey, maybe we should test them more then? :whistle:Like I said, only if I get half the testing fee.
_________________________________
the anti-dolt.

MartinHarper
11th-May-2005, 05:38 PM
I can get some worth from most intermediate classes.

Beginners in intermediate classes can disrupt me from acquiring the Hangover Pull Cowbell, or whatever. I don't see that as a net loss. Do you find that they also disrupt the more DIY style of learning that you're talking about, where you learn things that aren't being (explicitly) taught?


If, for example, the dancer has no frame and the move requires one, what do you do?

Gadget suggests compensating for my partner's lack of frame. However, if it was possible to compensate for my partner's lack of frame, how could it be a move that required a frame? I tend to just provide (what I think is something like) a correct lead, and see what happens. *shrug*

It would be interesting to look at how often someone teaches a move that requires good frame, compared to the number of times sie teaches good frame. I suppose teaching the former is a way to indirectly teach the latter.

spindr
11th-May-2005, 06:11 PM
Well, given that my back's been wingeing for a while I ended up ducking out of several classes at the recent weekender halfway through -- as soon as the dip/drop turned up.

The only class I thought would be relatively "safe" it ended up that the second lady round decided to drop all her weight backwards -- she seemed surprised when I said that I wasn't expecting her to -- I'm fairly sure that wasn't what the teacher had in mind when they said "lean back".

After that discretion was the better part of valour -- although it probably did cause a degree of confusion when I dropped out.

SpinDr.

P.S. If there's special aerials classes, and two/three special dips/drops classes -- do any teachers other than Mikey do "non-dips-n-drops-but-still-interesting-moves" classes at weekenders?

Or at least stick the dips-n-drops as the last moves in the routine :)

David Franklin
11th-May-2005, 06:25 PM
P.S. If there's special aerials classes, and two/three special dips/drops classes -- do any teachers other than Mikey do "non-dips-n-drops-but-still-interesting-moves" classes at weekenders?The best "wow, I always wanted to know how to do that" class I've done in recent years was by David and Lily at Rockbottoms (illusion spin, promenade in particular). Will, Kate and Amir regularly teach stuff I've not seen before at Jango (and I assume elsewhere) as well.

Gadget
11th-May-2005, 11:20 PM
Possibly, but I'm not sure how, with my right arm behind my back in the lead-in to a catapult from a yoyo, I can lead someone to take smaller steps...You don't: you compensate and take a small step back so hers dosn't seem so big. When she steps in on the preperation to the yo-yo, you can see where her pivot foot is - before your transfer of weight while opening out, move the right foot to be in-line. The next bit depends on whether it's a standard yo-yo, or a cattapult style movement: Freestyling a standard yo-yo, I start rotating on the half-count (before the arm is fully extended) so there is no real opportunity for the lady to seperate the drumstick from the chicken. For the cattapult style move, my hand would change orientation to have the thumb to the floor as I stepped infront of the lady (how far a stap would depend on her position).


Well, :worthy: to any teacher who can spot and remember mistakes by one person out of 120, then go and find that person later on, then do the same for, say 20 other people in the class making different mistakes. that's why moves are stepped through - after each step, the whole class should be in the same position. If someone is still tangling themselves in knots while everyone else has settled, it's not that difficult (OK, above about 50 couples it would get really hard to see people at the back... perhaps
"front row seats" should be reserved for newer dancers?)


In fact, I'm wondering why people bother with workshops teaching lead/follow, connection etc., when it can apparently all be picked up by spending 30 seconds with a good intermediate dancer.:rolleyes: Perhaps limited funds and restrictive commitments reduce the number and location of these workshops that can be attended? Perhaps the most has to be made from the limited resources at hand? Perhaps some dancers want to improve their dancing beyond what is being taught from the stage? {and it's 30 seconds with a beginner dancer... tsk... havn't you been paying attention? ;)}


A 3-minute dance-with-teacher session will, I'd hope, show what's wrong, and why it's wrong, with relatively simple corrections fixing problems hopefully. And just "getting-it-wrong" won't necessarily preclude advancement. So you're only now allowed a 3 minute dance with teacher session if you want to be tested? I would hope that any teacher would give a dancer (no matter the level) a 3 min dance and advice session if asked. I know that all the teachers I know would (/do/have done) anyway. :worthy:


Gadget suggests compensating for my partner's lack of frame. However, if it was possible to compensate for my partner's lack of frame, how could it be a move that required a frame? I tend to just provide (what I think is something like) a correct lead, and see what happens. *shrug*I think that moves lables as "requiring a frame" actually require the follower to 'listen' to the lead's lead more than usual and the lead to provide a clearer lead than usual - most "framed" moves I know that are like this are walks, where it is the timing and lead given through every connection point (both in terms of pressure, and direction). Normally, there is a slight 'firming' of the lead's connection before something like this so that the follower is given a 'heads up'. But I maintain that the lead should be able to compensate for a lot of the follower's "deafness".

{Perhaps your definition of a "frame" is different from mine?}

David Bailey
12th-May-2005, 10:28 AM
Beginners in intermediate classes can disrupt me from acquiring the Hangover Pull Cowbell, or whatever. I don't see that as a net loss. Do you find that they also disrupt the more DIY style of learning that you're talking about, where you learn things that aren't being (explicitly) taught?
Not really; I'm mostly doing it right and correcting where possible automatically. I'm generally (I hope!) a pretty clear lead in classes (I'd say I get it right about as often as the teacher does, but then she has a great clumping horselike demo she has to work with :whistle: ).

In other words, it takes a real yanker, and/or a leverage-light position, to make me worry about the level of my partner - if she doesn't do it right, I increase the strength of the lead until she does.

But in that particular class, for that particular move, it was quite vulnerable "to over-enthusiastic beginner following", that's why I used it as an example.

P.S. Hangover Pull Cowbell sounds interesting :)


You don't: you compensate and take a small step back so hers dosn't seem so big. { snip seriously detailed instructions }

That sounds sensible, and I certainly have no problems with either yo-yo or catapult. But going straight from a yo-yo to a catapult involves lifting your right arm more quickly and higher (at least for me), and faster, so there's less time to correct and compensate, and the leverage you have is also less. I'm probably describing the situation poorly, but please take my word that it didn't allow much correction time.



that's why moves are stepped through - after each step, the whole class should be in the same position. If someone is still tangling themselves in knots while everyone else has settled, it's not that difficult
Honestly, I don't believe it's practical to even attempt to resolve most individual difficulties within a large class format - the best even a superb teacher may manage is to quickly say "no, your left arm" or something. That's why we need taxi dancers in intermediate classes.


perhaps "front row seats" should be reserved for newer dancers?)
Not a bad idea - I've seen it happen a few times, but unless you're very strict in class management, you can't really enforce this. Again, we really need taxi dancers in intermediate classes...


So you're only now allowed a 3 minute dance with teacher session if you want to be tested?
No, of course not - but getting a dance with some teachers, with the best will in the world, is impossible for most attendees. Think about it, you've got maybe an hour of freestyle, call it 20 dances. The teacher may dance 15 of those. He / she may want 5 dances with friends, so that leaves maybe 10 people at most who can get a dance with Teach.
In other words, in a decent-sized class, you won't get that opportunity, even if, as a beginner, you had the guts to ask for a dance - again, that's what the wonderful Taxis are for.

This review process would guarantee you a dance, with proper feedback, as well as any other dances - surely that's an extra bonus?

David Franklin
12th-May-2005, 11:38 AM
At best from the stage you can see the first 3 or 4 couples in each line. After that it is just a mass of heads and arms, in lines that are not straight, doing a move at slightly different times, making mistakes and correcting themselves. With luck you can see if a class finishes a move roughly at the same time.
that's why moves are stepped through - after each step, the whole class should be in the same position. If someone is still tangling themselves in knots while everyone else has settled, it's not that difficult (OK, above about 50 couples it would get really hard to see people at the back... perhaps "front row seats" should be reserved for newer dancers?)Um... DavidB has rather a lot of experience for you to be discounting his opinion like that. Moreover, I've heard similar comments from all the "A-list" teachers I know well enough to discuss teaching. How long have you been teaching? Maybe you are the exception, but you should recognize most teachers find it hard to keep track of what's going on in even a moderately sized class.
But I maintain that the lead should be able to compensate for a lot of the follower's "deafness".Sure, you can get stuff to "work", for sufficiently small values of "work", but getting things to work well is another matter. Maybe you can do that, but I know I can't, and I'm certainly not alone. Mario Robau famously said that he would happily give up his two US Open trophies to be able to dance well with any woman out on a dance floor.

Feelingpink
12th-May-2005, 11:53 AM
... I maintain that the lead should be able to compensate for a lot of the follower's "deafness".
...

Don't you get tired of 'shouting' or having to learn sign language to overcome the follower's 'deafness'? :what:

El Salsero Gringo
12th-May-2005, 01:47 PM
I'd say I get it right about as often as the teacher does, but then she has a great clumping horselike demo she has to work with :whistle: You mean she doesn't get it right every time? I blame the DJ.

(And please, asinine, not horselike. Horses are so, well, common.)

Gadget
12th-May-2005, 02:39 PM
Um... DavidB has rather a lot of experience for you to be discounting his opinion like that. Nope - just proposing a counter argument and surmising from what I have seen taught. I may be jumping to the wrong conclusions and the teacher just assumes that people will be having specific difficulties at one point in the move - but when a solution is "worked out" from stage, it's a fairly sound assumption. (Not that it happens all the time, but we were talking about one singular person of exceptional difficulty.)

Sure, you can get stuff to "work", for sufficiently small values of "work", but getting things to work well is another matter.*shrug* You expect every dance to flow like liquid silk? Everything you do to be done well? I have aspirations like that, but no expectations. I dance as well as I can and try to have my partner dance as well as they can. If that requires a bit more 'work', so be it. :cool:


Don't you get tired of 'shouting' or having to learn sign language to overcome the follower's 'deafness'?:D nope - every partner is different and every song is different. Hardest part is switching between 'shouting' and 'whispering' a lead from one partner to the next. :sick:

David Bailey
12th-May-2005, 03:23 PM
I blame the DJ.
Well, yes, obviously, him too.



(And please, asinine, not horselike. Horses are so, well, common.)
Couldn't spell it. I know, I'll cut & paste yours :)