Beginners ... are we teaching them correctly?

[Gus]

Still getting my thoughts together on this topic but I thought I’d get the ball rolling anyway.

Beginners. Are we teaching them correctly? My recent observation has been that the majority of dancers coming through the ranks do not have a real understanding of tension/compression or lead & follow, or how to transfer weight. Before I get an onslaught from vexed (and impugned) Ceroc teachers let me put this in context.

Ceroc is profit making organisation that is there to bring numbers into dance, not to achieve dancing perfection.
Real dancers take years to learn how to dance, we expect the person in the street to be competent after 6 or so lessons.
There is a real limit to what you can teach to 60+ people from a stage, teaching as one mass.
The aim of Ceroc is fun, social dancing.
Ceroc HAS attempted to improve the teaching of beginners, changes (IMHO) which were for the most part a positive step forward.

Having said that, there is obviously some way to go. Ask why many of the really good dancers tend to avoid dancing with the common masses … simple … because they are sick of getting their arms and legs pulled off! Same goes for some guys … my last few times dancing with beginners (and some intermediates) have not always been pleasant experiences. I was wondering … is there a way, using a new synthesis of cognitive and dance theory, to improve the dance and movement teaching within Modern Jive. I get a feeling, and I need to think this through, that there is a gap in the market to teach MJ dancers how to dance rather than do moves.

Am I being too harsh? Am I totally off track or is there an element of reason within my ramblings? I would particularly like to hear from trained MJ teachers as to their views.

[Bangers & Mash]

One of the most useful courses I ever did was a lead and follow course at the BFG last year, taught by Franck.

Such a simple concept, yet fundamental to dance and good practice can lead to a very enjoyable dance with no arm injuries for the ladies due to poor or over-assertive leading.

[jivecat]

I agree. The only teaching I can remember about lead/follow came from other dancers and from a workshop run by John Sweeney. It should be emphasised and practised in every single beginner's class.

[Magic Hans]

Still getting my thoughts together on this topic but I thought I’d get the ball rolling anyway.

Beginners. Are we teaching them correctly? My recent observation has been that the majority of dancers coming through the ranks do not have a real ...
Sadly I agree.

Lead and follow is just so critical, and I am yet to have come across (1st hand) anyone who does it effectively. It's great to hear that Franck is doing it and would need to know a little more about it's content in order to convert my scepticism.

I was out dancing yesterday (after a bit of a break), and it still seems that many of the ladies are pulling back on their step back, even after a good few months. :tears: :tears:

One of them mentioned that the teacher always emphasizes body tension. I wonder if tension between dancers is being mistaken for tension in the body (and arm, in particular).

The best workshop that I attended early on started from real basics ..... walking. Using music as a framework, the trainer was encouraging us to listen, walk in time, and play with that ..... listening out for any syncopations.

This then moved onto simple walking, with partner and hand-to-hand hold, before moving onto argentine tango hold. [plenty of swapping partners, and swap role]

[El Salsero Gringo]

… is there a way, using a new synthesis of cognitive and dance theory...

Am I being too harsh? ...Er, harsh is not the first word that comes to mind.


Ask why many of the really good dancers tend to avoid dancing with the common massesI think it's because it's not so much fun dancing with people who half the time are dancing off the beat. Or else dancing on the beat, but to a totally different song than the one that's being played by the DJ.

[clevedonboy]

Er, harsh is not the first word that comes to mind.

I think it's because it's not so much fun dancing with people who half the time are dancing off the beat. Or else dancing on the beat, but to a totally different song than the one that's being played by the DJ.

just went way down in my opinon - sarcasm or not how can beginners (or intermediates) become better without dancing with better dancers. I try to dance with some beginners each night and am happy to accept their limitations but still have plenty of time to dance with others of a similar standard to myself or better (perhaps they shouldn't dance with me ........)

[DavidB]

Beginners. Are we teaching them correctly?I think beginners are taught well. I think they are taught better than anyone else. About the only thing I would suggest is to mention the First Rule Of Partner Dancing - "Don't hurt your partner".

The place to introduce technique is in the Intermediate class. However the first stage would be for the teachers to work out some common ideas they could teach. The worst thing to happen would be a lot of contradictory ideas being taught.

Modern Jive is a compromise. You have to live with the implications of the compromise. I understand that you would get better dancers by teaching technique right at the beginning. You just wouldn't get as many of them.


The only teaching I can remember about lead/follow came from other dancers Interestingly, only one man has ever asked me for advice on leading.

David

[Gus]

just went way down in my opinon - sarcasm or not how can beginners (or intermediates) become better without dancing with better dancers. I try to dance with some beginners each night and am happy to accept their limitations but still have plenty of time to dance with others of a similar standard to myself or better (perhaps they shouldn't dance with me ........)LOOK ... we are NOT going through the debate about how obligations (or not) to bring on beginners through dancing with them. Some of the people I have been referring to have done more to bring on dancers in the MJ scene than most of the instructors I know (including myself). The comments are made due to the fcat that these dnacers are suffering real pain and injury through dancing with people who need to be instructed from the stage! I've lost count of the number of times I've tried to help an intermediate lose rigidity/grip of death ... only to be harshly told ... "the instructor didnt do it like that!"

If better dancers are 'expected' to spend time brining on the less good dnacers, then its not too much to ask that the less good dancers have at least been shown the rudiments of how to dance in the first place by the club's instructor. Fair comment?

[Bangers & Mash]

LOOK ... we are NOT going through the debate about how obligations (or not) to bring on beginners through dancing with them. Some of the people I have been referring to have done more to bring on dancers in the MJ scene than most of the instructors I know (including myself). The comments are made due to the fcat that these dnacers are suffering real pain and injury through dancing with people who need to be instructed from the stage! I've lost count of the number of times I've tried to help an intermediate lose rigidity/grip of death ... only to be harshly told ... "the instructor didnt do it like that!"

If better dancers are 'expected' to spend time brining on the less good dnacers, then its not too much to ask that the less good dancers have at least been shown the rudiments of how to dance in the first place by the club's instructor. Fair comment?

:yeah:

Why don't the ceroc venues have posters up or leaflets about good dance style and technique. These could be handouts.

Most dancers want to be better so why not provide a simple short term solution and once a month or so, add a fundamentals element to the class which may include things like frame, lead and follow and bouncing!

[El Salsero Gringo]

LOOK ... we are NOT going through the debate about how obligations (or not) to bring on beginners through dancing with them. Some of the people I have been referring to have done more to bring on dancers in the MJ scene than most of the instructors I know (including myself). The comments are made due to the fcat that these dnacers are suffering real pain and injury through dancing with people who need to be instructed from the stage! I've lost count of the number of times I've tried to help an intermediate lose rigidity/grip of death ... only to be harshly told ... "the instructor didnt do it like that!"

If better dancers are 'expected' to spend time brining on the less good dnacers, then its not too much to ask that the less good dancers have at least been shown the rudiments of how to dance in the first place by the club's instructor. Fair comment?
I accept Clevedonboy's rebuke for being a bit 'lippy' but I just wanted to point out that no matter how good the teaching, you aren't going to make *everyone* in the room suddenly become a joy to dance with. The better you get, the less fun it is dancing with "the masses". (I know that's a different topic, and one that's been had many times before so I'm happy not to go there.) Now you're quite right to say that dancing with anyone shouldn't be dangerous but is the feeling that people's arms are being wrenched universal? It isn't something I've really noticed as a recurring theme.

Not to claim that Ceroc or other MJ lessons are perfect and have no room for improvement, but I'm not convinced that you can teach people to dance - distinct from teaching them some moves and a few technique points - any more than you can teach someone to be a novelist, or composer. Ultimately dancing is a creative activity and obviously not everyone is cut out to be a Degas, Chopin or Scott Fitzgerald - or even reach a level that would distinguish them from the "common masses" of which you speak.

[Dazzle]

I agree that maybe there is more that could be taught on occasion. However, thinking back to when I first began, the first few weeks are so mind-numbing, you rarely make it through to the end of the night before needing to leave and sit in a dark room listening to dolphin music!

As DavidB mentioned, too much too soon can be off putting. Another real problem is that many people just don't listen at all! They pay their money for workshops and still they don't listen. You bend over backwards to offer the right tuition and technical insight, and still they don't listen.

Once dancers reach a certain level they then consider that they don't need to attend workshops any more. They have nothing left to learn. There are a 101 reasons why, big fish-small pond syndrome and all that.

From a teacher, and a new one at that, this may seem harsh and negative and why am I doing it? Well, Things may seem bad to some, but they would be far worse if not. We do manage to get through to some people, and those few usually end up being the better dancers of the future.

I am sure I will get stacks of flack for this post, but over the last few weeks this point has been driven home to me; aching arms, shoulders and elbows from some women who could have been pronounced dead due to the amount of rigormortis in their bodies!

[philsmove]

One bid advantage of the beginner format
It gets people dancing
To start with it does not matter about style
Big advantage with MJ you can start with two left feet and no sense of rhythm
You dance and you enjoy yourself
You get addicted
You realize there is more to dancing and life than bopping
Style comes later sometimes much later

[El Salsero Gringo]

Gus,

There's also an achingly large assumption in your original post - that the common masses actually desire to be improved so that the "really good dancers" as you put it, will want to dance with them. It's possible, just possible, that those people for whom this is important are the ones who already have the motivation to rouse themselves and learn how to dance better and become what they want to be - while the others, content with their lack of skill, might very well resent any interference with the lesson content they already receive. Nobody ever signed up for Ceroc as the route to becoming a highly-skilled dancer - it's simply not a selling point of this form of dance.

[Bangers & Mash]

I agree that maybe there is more that could be taught on occasion. However, thinking back to when I first began, the first few weeks are so mind-numbing, you rarely make it through to the end of the night before needing to leave and sit in a dark room listening to dolphin music!

valid point




Once dancers reach a certain level they then consider that they don't need to attend workshops any more. They have nothing left to learn. There are a 101 reasons why, big fish-small pond syndrome and all that.

The self-proclaimed expert dancers, huh! Notice how the empty vessels make the most noise. Who is it that tells these people that they are good dancers anyway?



I am sure I will get stacks of flack for this post, but over the last few weeks this point has been driven home to me; aching arms, shoulders and elbows from some women who could have been pronounced dead due to the amount of rigormortis in their bodies!
Could this be an opportunity for the taxi dancers - to help beginners with dance etiquette. That way beginners get feedback as they are dancing. much easier than being instructed in it.

[Gus]

Why don't the ceroc venues have posters up or leaflets about good dance style and technique. These could be handouts.

Most dancers want to be better so why not provide a simple short term solution and once a month or so, add a fundamentals element to the class which may include things like frame, lead and follow and bouncing!Top lad ... excellent points (will rep you again when I can). I think the Ceroc(tm) should be paying you for this idea. :waycool:


Style comes later sometimes much laterDon't think we are actualy talking about style. We are talking about dance basics, how to do simple things right and cease to be a pain (in the literal sense).

[El Salsero Gringo]

Once dancers reach a certain level they then consider that they don't need to attend workshops any more. They have nothing left to learn. There are a 101 reasons why, big fish-small pond syndrome and all that.

The self-proclaimed expert dancers, huh! Notice how the empty vessels make the most noise. Who is it that tells these people that they are good dancers anyway?What on earth justifies this rampant hostility towards people who consider their dancing is quite good enough for their purposes, thank you, and turn down the (oh-so-generous) offer of paying £25 or whatever to go to more workshops and lessons? For goodness sakes, some people just don't want to worry about doing it better - it's not on their agenda. And they don't deserve to be slagged off here.
Most dancers want to be betterRather than just perpetuating this (I suspect) myth, how about stumping up some evidence? If you want evidence to the contrary then just look at how many people don't take up the workshops, ask the teacher after the class for extra help, and so on. Point?

[Dazzle]

I totally agree with you that some people are quite happy to dance as they are and are totally happy without workshops. They should then also be happy if turned down because those who do value their health and want to progress avoid them or politely refuse a dance offer. You cannot have it both ways and we always try to encourage people to dance with anyone and everyone.

[David Bailey]

Great Ghu, from question to abuse in 90 minutes, it's a fast-moving system we've got here.


is the feeling that people's arms are being wrenched universal? It isn't something I've really noticed as a recurring theme.
Moi non plus, but then leaders probably wouldn't so much.


Not to claim that Ceroc or other MJ lessons are perfect and have no room for improvement, but I'm not convinced that you can teach people to dance
Oh yes, we've definitely had this debate, I initiated the last round of it...

Getting back to the original question, I think Ceroc (and other MJ) will never try to add too much technique to beginner classes, it'd be commercially poor as I suspect it'd increase retention rate. Also, I'm not sure that tension and weight-shifting is something that beginners will want to learn.

However, I do believe there's a major problem when you get people past the beginner level. I'm very glad that (I believe) Ceroc are now saying do 12 weeks as a beginner before moving up. But that's still not a long time, and there doesn't seem to be an official "improver" level (say, 12 weeks - 6 months). I'd certainly like to see more differentiation in experience levels, that'd allow time and space to develop people at their own pace, and concentrate on technique as much as moves in some areas.

One crazy idea - how about a test to go "up a level"? I think anyone who's ready to go from beginner level is probably hooked, so I don't think it'd put people off, and it could give the precise opportunity to ensure that "beginners", "improvers", "intermediates" and "advanced" can at least be taught the basics of the craft, rather than hoping they'll pick it up on the way.

[Bangers & Mash]

One crazy idea - how about a test to go "up a level"? I think anyone who's ready to go from beginner level is probably hooked, so I don't think it'd put people off, and it could give the precise opportunity to ensure that "beginners", "improvers", "intermediates" and "advanced" can at least be taught the basics of the craft, rather than hoping they'll pick it up on the way.

Isn't this how they do it in the southern hemisphere?

To me the issue here is the people who want to "have a go" at intermediate but might be denied whilst waiting to be assessed.

Why not introduce an "optional - for feedback" scheme that allows people to measure their own progress, strengths and weaknesses rather than have it as a pre-requisite for the next step in ceroc.

I would certainly be interested in something like that.

[El Salsero Gringo]

They should then also be happy if turned downIt was Gus who implied that there was a problem with this in his original post, and he didn't supply any evidence for that point of view.

Here's an even more radical idea: if you want to improve the standard of dancing (and as teachers I know that it's high on *your* agenda, even if you've not shown to be high on the agendas of many customers) how about working on motivating people to improve? How can you switch people's mindsets from "my dancing's good enough" to "I'd like it to be better, and I'm now prepared to put in the time, money and effort involved to make it so"? That's going to require more than just a change in teaching syllabus.

David's point about having tests to move up levels is perhaps a method of achieving this, but I'm sure he'll forgive me for saying I think it's a pretty cack-handed and counterproductive one.

[Dazzle]

As a teacher, I personally want dancers to improve as to a point it is a yard stick for how well I am doing my job. Additionally, I always work my way around the dance hall to try to motivate and enthuse those new or recently new to the activity with my own enthusiasm for dance. We try to have demonstrations for people to see what the possibilities are and to give them something to aim for, if that is where their motivation lies.

What I don't accept are those who say they want to improve, yet do nothing about it and expect to get better. Like everything else, it takes effort, time and the usual evil, money. I was not knocking anyone at all. Everyone can do as they please, but when they then want me to be involved, either from being physically hurt or waste my time when it could be better utilised then I think I can say how I feel about that.

While ever we advertise MJ as being easy to learn and keep things simple we will be victims of our own circumstances. Having levels and tests will put us in the same subset as the other disciplines we try to get around with new dancers.

[spindr]

What I don't accept are those who say they want to improve, yet do nothing about it and expect to get better.

Isn't that why they keep going to regular classes?

It is a somewhat legitimate assumption that if it's an important technique, then the regular teacher should cover it. I for one have never been to a regular class where the regular teacher lists the things that they *aren't* going to teach -- workshops are usually presented as "welcome additions" not "necessary requirements" to learning to dance MJ.

SpinDr.

[TheTramp]

For goodness sakes, some people just don't want to worry about doing it better - it's not on their agenda. And they don't deserve to be slagged off here. Rather than just perpetuating this (I suspect) myth, how about stumping up some evidence? If you want evidence to the contrary then just look at how many people don't take up the workshops, ask the teacher after the class for extra help, and so on. Point?
I suspect that everybody who dances would like to be better.

And if you had a magic wand, and the simple requirement was to wave it to make someone a better dancer, I doubt that you could find anyone who would actually stop you waving it.

In terms of workshops, asking for help etc. most people do MJ as a social activity - their one night out per week (or similar), and they don't have money or time to spend on workshops, or the confidence to ask the teachers for extra help, and many other reasons. Which is fine. As you've said. But I don't think that they don't want to be better. They just don't have the resources or dedication to devote to improving....

[MartinHarper]

It's not too much to ask that the less good dancers have at least been shown the rudiments of how to dance in the first place by the club's instructor.

I have been seeing a few green shoots of progress on this front. For example, in one intermediate Ceroc class this week, the teacher told us all us guys to look behind us prior to doing a particular set of backwards steps - something I realised I had failed to do during the previous walkthrough. Previously I've come across similar titbits on musicality, spinning, hygiene, and even (gasp!) footwork.

Locally, most Ceroc teachers briefly mention the evils of thumbs at the start of beginner classes, and this makes it a little easier for dancers to offer a little feedback to each other on that subject. I hope that these titbits on other aspects of the dance will similarly helps us to help each other.


Who is it that tells these (self-proclaimed expert dancers] that they are good dancers anyway?

Other dancers. Taxis. Occasionally teachers. See TheTramp's post on the confidence and humility (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=109073&postcount=28) thread about luvvies and their evilness.


How can you switch people's mindsets from "my dancing's good enough" to "I'd like it to be better, and I'm now prepared to put in the time, money and effort involved to make it so"?

The biggest demotivator for me to learning modern jive to a higher level is the comments I see and hear from better modern jivers than myself. Some of them apparently find it physically painful to dance with a substantial proportion of beginners and beginning intermediates. Others are worried that "dancing down" will in some way hinder them from "progressing" and will "waste their time". I have no desire to reduce the number of people with whom I can have an enjoyable dance.

[Franck]

Lead and follow is just so critical, and I am yet to have come across (1st hand) anyone who does it effectively. It's great to hear that Franck is doing it and would need to know a little more about it's content in order to convert my scepticism.I agree, lead and follow are critical, but they are not the only thing that matters. Clearly, being an average lead or follow doesn't preclude having many good dances and enjoying a night out. Indeed many Forumites have commented that the better they become, the more subtle / responsive their lead / follow is, the less they enjoy dancing, so maybe we should teach those basics less? :wink:

Seriously, I do believe that most people want to be better, but are afraid to step out of their comfort zone. They also don't want to invest more time / effort or money into improving, especially as the improvements usually involve getting much worse before you get better.

The solution, in my view, is to offer the basics more often during the Beginners / Intermediate class (and all my classes for the last couple of years at least, have included a 'connection' / lead-follow / timing shift) to introduce dancers to these core concepts.
As a pilot, we tried a technical class in Perth and I believe it was very useful, there was no extra charge, we offered one core concept each week during the Beginners class, and numbers were growing steadily. We covered not only frame / connection and other lead/follow techniques, but also hand positioning, footwork, musicality, styling and many others.
Unfortunately, it isn't easy to to have 2 simultaneous classes as most venues don't have a separate room, and the logistics / costs of a second teacher are not really practical!
This leaves the option of workshops, and we run that kind of workshop regularly enough, and they sell well, but most people would need to attend the same workshop several time to really 'get' the concepts, and few are prepared to do it.

The way I learnt, was to invite teachers who knew a lot more than I did to teach in Scotland, and listen very carefully to what they were teaching so I could include it into my dancing, and ultimately my teaching. In that respect, I'm very privileged and would like to thank Adam (Ceroc Metro), Emma (Ceroc Central), Humphrey, Marc (Ceroc Central), David & Lily Barker, Nicky Haslam and Robert Winter (Ceroc Australia) and more recently Howard & Nicola, for their teaching, and insight into this wonderfully freeform dance we call Modern Jive.

[Baruch]

Now you're quite right to say that dancing with anyone shouldn't be dangerous but is the feeling that people's arms are being wrenched universal? It isn't something I've really noticed as a recurring theme.
If not universal, it's certainly pretty widespread. It's not just the ladies that suffer from it, either. I've lost track of the number of times I've had my arms wrenched by beginners gripping on to my hand for dear life while in a turn (and don't even mention the pretzel), or turning in the opposite direction to the way I'm leading. Not all of them relax their grip when asked to, either. Then there are those ladies who throw themselves into drops that I haven't led, which often ends up with me straining my back and/or knees as I desperately try to stop them colliding heavily with the floor.

Now, don't get me wrong here - I like dancing with beginners as a general rule, and I wouldn't turn one down for a dance if she asked me, but there are some I would avoid asking myself. It would certainly help if beginners were taught the basics of "Dance Health and Safety" right from the beginning. That's far preferable to having to do the job myself because various parts of my body are suddenly in pain.

[Gary]

...
Here's an even more radical idea: if you want to improve the standard of dancing (and as teachers I know that it's high on *your* agenda, even if you've not shown to be high on the agendas of many customers) how about working on motivating people to improve? How can you switch people's mindsets from "my dancing's good enough" to "I'd like it to be better, and I'm now prepared to put in the time, money and effort involved to make it so"? That's going to require more than just a change in teaching syllabus.
...
I try to teach lead/follow technique in our Beginner Progression classes (when there's time), and try to motivate students by telling them that they'll be much more fun and popular to dance with if they improve their technique.

[Franck]

I think beginners are taught well. I think they are taught better than anyone else. About the only thing I would suggest is to mention the First Rule Of Partner Dancing - "Don't hurt your partner".
Ceroc normally make a point of teaching that doing a move badly can be painful and offering a painless alternative, though probably not enough, and in any case, the culprits rarely listen / hear what is being taught, or don't feel the teacher is talking about them.
I have been much clearer and forceful in my teaching recently in Dundee, probably to the point where half the class in now un-necessarily paranoid :eek: It will be interesting to see whether that makes a difference or not!

The place to introduce technique is in the Intermediate class. However the first stage would be for the teachers to work out some common ideas they could teach. The worst thing to happen would be a lot of contradictory ideas being taught.

Modern Jive is a compromise. You have to live with the implications of the compromise. I understand that you would get better dancers by teaching technique right at the beginning. You just wouldn't get as many of them.

Interestingly, only one man has ever asked me for advice on leading.I agree with all the above completely, Beginners have a hard enough time as it is, and my main priority would be to get them hooked on the joy of dancing first. Once we have them :wink: we can start adding extra concepts.
As for consistency, I believe that thanks to the 'Ceroc Essentials' warm-up and a redesigned and improved Teacher training course, those techniques are being standardized across the UK. It will unfortunately take a while for a new generation of teachers to implement the changes fully!

[TheTramp]

Interestingly, only one man has ever asked me for advice on leading.
Ah. But I did ask your advice on following. And Franck's too! :flower:

[El Salsero Gringo]

I suspect that everybody who dances would like to be better.

And if you had a magic wand, and the simple requirement was to wave it to make someone a better dancer, I doubt that you could find anyone who would actually stop you waving it.

In terms of workshops, asking for help etc. most people do MJ as a social activity - their one night out per week (or similar), and they don't have money or time to spend on workshops, or the confidence to ask the teachers for extra help, and many other reasons. Which is fine. As you've said. But I don't think that they don't want to be better. They just don't have the resources or dedication to devote to improving....There's a difference between idly wishing for something to come true, and being prepared to put in the time and effort (and some money maybe) to achieve it. If someone offered me to be able to play the piano like an expert, tomorrow, then I'd not say no. But since despite many opportunities over the last few years I've never taken up piano lessons, can I really say that I'd like to play piano? Not really.

It's not really for *that* group's benefit that anyone is interested in improving the standard of dance of the "common masses" - it's for the benefit of us, who are sitting here debating the issue - so that we (I'll take the chance of including myself outside the common masses just for argument's sake) have more partners we enjoy dancing with. In other words - the call goes like this:

"Hey, you lot, you dispossessed, you huddled masses - go and improve your dance skills, so that we can enjoy dancing with you more."

Back comes the obvious reply "Yes but if we do, will we huddled masses enjoy our own dancing more as a result?"

To which the only retort that can be made (on the evidence of this thread) is "Who knows? That's not our problem."


The biggest demotivator for me to learning modern jive to a higher level is the comments I see and hear from better modern jivers than myself. Some of them apparently find it physically painful to dance with a substantial proportion of beginners and beginning intermediates. I don't follow this at all - why should that stop you, Martin, from wanting to learn to dance better? Are you worried that you will turn into someone who suddenly finds it painful to dance with 'yankers' that you hadn't previously noticed? If that's the case then the only answer to the question I posed above has got to be:

"No, actually, if you improve the standard of your dancing, you'll notice the deficiencies of everyone else more so in fact you'll enjoy your dancing less than you do now."

So what's the answer?

[David Franklin]

Initial disclaimer - it's a long time since I went to Ceroc classes regularly, so my comments may be somewhat out of date.

Ceroc normally make a point of teaching that doing a move badly can be painful and offering a painless alternative, though probably not enough, and in any case, the culprits rarely listen / hear what is being taught, or don't feel the teacher is talking about them.Ceroc do that for drops, certainly, but I can't remember seeing it for other moves (I dare say it happens, but it's definitely not common). Conversely, I still recall in horror the time a instructor (fairly well respected, too) explained that when doing a backhander, you should "force the woman's arm around if you need to"! :eek:

I agree with all the comments that we shouldn't be overloading the beginners, but I think a few hints, suggestions, or just changes of emphasis could make quite a difference. For example...

My memories of beginner classes are that I was encouraged to use a lot of force. Things like being told "Chuck it [the girls hand] away like a frisbee"! And being encouraged to really lean in the catapult. I don't recall ever being advised about not needing to be forceful.

Another thing I remember is being told to "bounce" to make the moves look better. (I don't exactly recall the details, and that's almost another point. What people actually take from what is taught). I very much wish I'd been taught the opposite - many years later, I still haven't completely "de-bounced" myself...

My personal bugbear: Get people to understand "step back" does not mean "step back and pull so hard you'd fall over if your partner let go"... For me, this is the one thing that causes more discomfort than anything else. The worst are the follows who do it with absolutely no tension in their arm, so there's a jolt each time the arm reaches its limit. [Aside on the "as you get better you enjoy dancing less" front. I danced for years without noticing this. Now it really bothers me. I'm not sure what's changed. Even more puzzlingly - it doesn't seem to bother the follow, even when she's half my size and not keeping any tension to protect her shoulder joint.]

The other problem I find personally, is that much of what I dance is no longer "Ceroc", or at any rate, if it is, I've never seen it taught. The relevance of that is that I don't feel I have any business suggesting to a dancer at a Ceroc class that they are doing anything wrong if they can't follow what I lead. Plus I'm not a teacher and have never even taxied, so that's another reason not to give out advice. (And in fact, I'm quite aware of the argument that if I have trouble leading a move to 90% of the follows at a venue, the problem might not be with them! :tears: ). But if I can't get my dance to work with certain people, realistically, I'm not going to want to dance with them. In a lot of ways, it's not a value judgement - I'm not saying they dance "wrong", but our styles are just not compatible. But it's all a bit self-fulfilling, and thus the gap widens...

[Yliander]

In this part of the Southern Hemsiphere - Perth - in Consolidation Class (=Sydney's Beginner Progression Class) we not only cover the moves taught in that evening's beginner class but also 1 of 4 fundamentals on a rotational basis - these are Lead & follow, finding the beat, spining and last but not least tension - we have various exercises that we use to explain and help people grasp these concepts - for lead and follow blind folds for the girls is always a favourite. Since adding this facet to our consolidation classes i have noticed that a lot more of our beginners are making the move to intermediate much more smoothly than before

in addition to this beginners are required to be passed by a teacher before starting intermediate classes - the incentive there is that if they present their signed consolidation card they get their first intermediate class for 1/2 price. This helps ensure that they are ready to cope with itermediate classes as there is a marked jump in the difficulty between beginner and intermediate classes

[David Bailey]

Re: wanting to get better:


What I don't accept are those who say they want to improve, yet do nothing about it and expect to get better. Like everything else, it takes effort, time and the usual evil, money.
and

I suspect that everybody who dances would like to be better.
Sure, in the same way they'd like to be fitter, slimmer, learn a new language, fly to the moon (OK, maybe that last one's just me :) ). Doesn't mean it's the most important factor in going to a MJ venue, or even that it should be. Going to workshops should not be a pre-requisite for becoming a good dancer (I hope not anyway, as I've never been to one - perhaps that says something about my dancing!).

I suspect that most forumites want to be better, but I suspect that "improving my dancing" is less important to most MJ venue attendees than "having a good time / meeting new people / getting exercise".


Having levels and tests will put us in the same subset as the other disciplines we try to get around with new dancers.
Well, it was just a (cack-handed :( ) suggestion...



The biggest demotivator for me to learning modern jive to a higher level is the comments I see and hear from better modern jivers than myself. ...I have no desire to reduce the number of people with whom I can have an enjoyable dance.
As I said in the other thread, :yeah: , :yeah: and thrice :yeah:
MJ is about fun for the majority of people, not about dancing, let's bear that in mind. And workshops are not really seen as fun.


Unfortunately, it isn't easy to to have 2 simultaneous classes as most venues don't have a separate room, and the logistics / costs of a second teacher are not really practical!
Well, not knowing the economics, I can't really comment... Oh OK, I will then :) Salsa does this, they commonly have several classes in the same room - I've been to a room the size of a small-to-medium ceroc venue, with 4 simultaneous classes going on. Of course, it's possible we pay our wonderful Ceroc teachers more than the downtrodden salsa teachers :)


So what's the answer?
More forum posts, obviously!

[stewart38]

in addition to this beginners are required to be passed by a teacher before starting intermediate classes - the incentive there is that if they present their signed consolidation card they get their first intermediate class for 1/2 price. This helps ensure that they are ready to cope with itermediate classes as there is a marked jump in the difficulty between beginner and intermediate classes


If we ever go that way lets hope someone starts a new franchise !

Very basic fundementals dont seem to be taught now in ceroc as they did say 7-10yrs ago. Im talking about how you hold hands , the step back etc. As mention before many beginners lesson have comments 'if you want to do double spin, or to improve your styling etc.

Although i did attend class where we practice the step back many times going around in a circle which was interesting.

I think as more people have come into ceroc/jive the standard has lowered which makes ceroc champs jive week ends more enjoyable because basically you get better dancers !

At a recent venue i had 2 good dances all night :sad: but thats usually the exception.

[Yliander]

If we ever go that way lets hope someone starts a new franchise ! not sure if you are saying that requiring beginners to be passed by a teacher before going into intermediate is a good or a bad thing.

It is nothing particularly strenuous - the test is simply to dance a song during freestyle with a teacher (having asked them to assess you) - the passing requirements are to be able to compentently lead/follow an entire song freestyle - with basic tension, timing etc being displayed - the majority of people pass first time those that don't we give advice on things to focus on in the next couple of classes and assess them again in a couple of weeks

a lot of thought went into this system - we didn't want it to be really scary and full on but we needed a way to limit the number of early self promotions to intermediate - as this was creating situations where unprepared beginners became a danger in the intermediate class or found it so difficult they never returned

People can bypass being assessed by just moving up into intermediate - but they loose out on their discounted class.

[stewart38]

not sure if you are saying that requiring beginners to be passed by a teacher before going into intermediate is a good or a bad thing.

It is nothing particularly strenuous - the test is simply to dance a song during freestyle with a teacher (having asked them to assess you) - the passing requirements are to be able to compentently lead/follow an entire song freestyle - with basic tension, timing etc being displayed - the majority of people pass first time those that don't we give advice on things to focus on in the next couple of classes and assess them again in a couple of weeks

a lot of thought went into this system - we didn't want it to be really scary and full on but we needed a way to limit the number of early self promotions to intermediate - as this was creating situations where unprepared beginners became a danger in the intermediate class or found it so difficult they never returned

People can bypass being assessed by just moving up into intermediate - but they loose out on their discounted class.


The idea of being 'tested' in ceroc I think is wrong regardless of the good intensions. I think the improvers class is a good concept.

[Bangers & Mash]

The idea of being 'tested' in ceroc I think is wrong regardless of the good intensions. I think the improvers class is a good concept.

"L" plates for new beginners - then see if they'll come back the week following.

How about give each person a score card -

The Good Dancers Checklist
I can follow
I can lead
I don't have bad breath
I don't smell
I smile when I dance
I make eye contact
I'm fun to dance with
I follow the beat
I know more than 3 moves
I've danced with someone better than me
I've danced with someone worse than me
I've danced with Franck
I've danced with Sheena
I've bopped with Anita :blush:


Actually, on a more serious note, this started as a ****take, but I can see opportunities for posters, leaftlets, tee-shirts with similar on them. It pokes fun, but it drives the message home.

[Gadget]

I really don't get this "By improving my lead(/follow) I'm more acceptable to injury" rubbish:
A good lead guides the lady. The level of guidance is just as important as the direction taken and the sights seen on the way. Controll of strength, direction, and timing are all vital in good leading.

As a lead, you have to determine the level of dominance/strength that your lead will have. How precise and controlled you will lead. How much 'space' you will give your partner. The firmness of your connection. How you will time your moves and the dance. Which moves you will do.
All of these are determined by what you perceive of your partner; if you fail in any of these areas, then you are at an increased risk of injury - for both yourself and your partner.

What some people see as "improving" their dancing is developing one or two of the skills above, but in doing so, the others are neglected and so the dancer becomes more prone to damage from that area. This seems to be especially true of the "strength/dominance" part.
Yes: you should be able to lead blindfold by fingertip pressure only, but this does not exclude the skill of forming a frame and strong support for dips, seducers and the like, does it? Why can't the same 'command' be used for hesitant or 'wild' followers? Primarily because the lead does not listen to what the follower needs and is used to leading lightly and having the follower follow a delicate touch. These people should be able to adapt to their partner (they have the skills). Why they don't? you tell me.

[Lynn]

Why not introduce an "optional - for feedback" scheme that allows people to measure their own progress, strengths and weaknesses rather than have it as a pre-requisite for the next step in ceroc. Having just written an assignment on the role of feedback to students (had to pick an issue on learning and teaching) this is an interesting point...Feedback is an essential part of learning - often it is given at formal assessment stage (and IMO there should be more before this as its not much help after you've been given the grade for a course - no chance to take action to close the gap and improve) - but there is no formal assessment in MJ. We get informal feedback all the time from dance partners, often non-verbal, but not usually focused enough to give information on how to improve. Taxi dancers will give feedback to beginners. Competition results are a source of feedback. But there is no structured feedback built into learning and teaching MJ. I have asked some experienced dancers for feedback and really appreciated it, especially when they have pointed out things I was doing wrong and suggested ways to improve. :hug:

And I know there is the arguement that a lot of dancers are happy with their level and aren't looking to improve, I'm not suggesting anything compulsory for everyone - but is there any way it could be built into the learning process in a more structured way? Would have to be a workshop level, it wouldn't work with a large class and it would be best at least initially to be offered as an optional extra.

[Gary]

...We get informal feedback all the time from dance partners, often non-verbal, but not usually focused enough to give information on how to improve. ...
Actually I suspect that a lot of the time people avoid giving negative feedback to their dance partners, for the sake of politeness. I know that I do, unless I'm asked to do otherwise.

This seems to reinforce Lynn's point, that more structured feedback would be useful for people learning to dance.

[Lynn]

Actually I suspect that a lot of the time people avoid giving negative feedback to their dance partners, for the sake of politeness. I know that I do, unless I'm asked to do otherwise. Oh yes, I had specifically asked for feedback and asked to be told what I was doing wrong - it wasn't volunteered and I asked them not to 'be polite'. How else can we improve?


This seems to reinforce Lynn's point, that more structured feedback would be useful for people learning to dance. And if it was structured it would be from the proper source - from someone who has thought about how to give feedback (as it needs to be handled properly, postive balanced with negative, any negative to be 'constructive' and show how to improve) rather than someone just unhelpfully saying 'you're doing that wrong, let me show you how it should be done' (and there are people who do that!)

[David Bailey]

The idea of being 'tested' in ceroc I think is wrong regardless of the good intensions.

Having initially suggested this, admittedly half in jest, I feel honour-bound to defend it, to the death, sirrah. Or something...

I believe the question could perhaps be phrased as "Do we want to make more of a structure to the 'dance levels' or not?"

If we do, then I believe we must use better differentiators than "must have done 12 classes" (frankly, the only benefit of that metric is that it's easy to measure). Certainly, I could argue that this "12 weeks" is already a "test", so Ceroc is already employing such a system.

For better differentiators, we need better measurements - and testing is a time-honoured way of measuring levels of achievement in all other practices, from academia to martial arts and indeed to many other dance disciplines.

The presence of testing hasn't harmed these areas, why should it do to Modern Jive? It might even encourage more learners to move up, by providing solid evidence of achievement by going up a level...

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big defender of the democracy of the MJ freestyle arena, but I'm talking about learning environments here.


Actually I suspect that a lot of the time people avoid giving negative feedback to their dance partners, for the sake of politeness. I know that I do, unless I'm asked to do otherwise.

This seems to reinforce Lynn's point, that more structured feedback would be useful for people learning to dance.
:yeah:
And I just realised that Lynn's post says what I wanted to, but better... Oh well, I've written it now...


I think the improvers class is a good concept.
Here we agree.

[Yliander]

The idea of being 'tested' in ceroc I think is wrong regardless of the good intensions. I think the improvers class is a good concept.why do you think being tested in ceroc is wrong?

is gives people the confiedence to partipate in intermediate classes knowing they have the required basic skills to under take it - rather than ending up out of their depth

[bigdjiver]

Standards and tests are appropriate for competitive environments. For me the most important test is already being applied. "Do you get enough out of your evening to make you come back?". I know people that have been coming for a long time that do not do the intermediate class because it is too difficult for them. They are happy enough just to enjoy the atmosphere in the company of their friends. They enjoy a few simple dances, which they perform badly, but, if the lead looks happy, they look happy.

At the other extreme I have known a few ladies that insisted on trying the intermediate on their first night. Of the four ladies that I recall, I never saw three again. The two that had danced before could do it, and one of those is still a regular.

Any test will be an incentive to some, and a distinct deterrent to others. That test culture was one of the things that put me off ballroom.

[ducasi]

As a dancer of just 3 months now and a recent "graduate" from a beginner to a novice intermediate, I either have a valuable contribution to make to this discussion, or none at all as I don't really have the range of experience of different teachers etc. So, feel free to ignore anything I say...

Almost all of my learning has been in Glasgow, taught either by Franck or one of his teachers. As such, there could well be a big variation between my experience and other people's outside Scotland. Or not – I don't know.

So, with all that said...

Yes, beginners are being taught the right things. All the things people say should be taught to beginners, have been taught to me. Maybe not enough for some people, but I think that over-emphasising a lot of the technical stuff will only reduce the fun part of learning, and as Franck said, quite often the people who need to heed what's being taught to them aren't paying attention.

That said, I'm sure the the teaching could be better – everything has room for improvement. Perhaps a "new synthesis of cognitive and dance theory" could help, and I'd be interesting hearing what sort of thing you have in mind here.

The idea of flyers or posters isn't a bad one. Maybe a weekly hand-out with this week's moves on, plus some technical tips? Or how about a booklet (maybe that costs money?) with details of all the beginner moves and guides on technique and "how to be a good dancer"? I think it would be useful.

I'm also quite keen on the idea of simple tests and grading to guide dancers as to when they're ready for the intermediate class, and also to let them know objectively just how good they are.

It was my regular teacher who told me I was ready for the intermediate class after a workshop where she had the opportunity to evaluate my skill level. I'd be a lot less sure I was ready for the move up without her guidance.

So I've moved from beginner to what I call "beginner intermediate" after being informally tested. I'd like to have a teacher tell me in another few months that I can really call myself "intermediate". It'd be a real motivation to improve too.

Pretty much everything else I can think you can be taught has some sort of measure of accomplishment – e.g. piano grades, or martial arts belts.

But that's just my feeling, and I know other people wouldn't be interested, so it'd be fine if it were optional.

It's interesting though that (from what I know from friends who do karate) one of the main things examined in some (most? all?) martial arts is safety, and you don't get to do "freestyle" fighting until you've passed a basic competency test.

Wow, this has been another long post! :sad: So, lastly, as for whether the "really good" dancers want to dance with me or not – well if not, that's too bad, it's their loss. :wink:

Cheers!

[David Bailey]

Perhaps a "new synthesis of cognitive and dance theory" could help, and I'd be interesting hearing what sort of thing you have in mind here.
I got lost around that point... Any new system, I humbly suggest, should have easy-to-understand aims and principles.



The idea of flyers or posters isn't a bad one. Maybe a weekly hand-out with this week's moves on, plus some technical tips? Or how about a booklet (maybe that costs money?) with details of all the beginner moves and guides on technique and "how to be a good dancer"? I think it would be useful.

Do they still sell the Ceroc Check booklet thing (can't remember proper name) with beginner's moves?

A "And this week, you did..." leaflet would be a great idea IMO, especially as beginner's classes are so standardised.



I'm also quite keen on the idea of simple tests and grading to guide dancers as to when they're ready for the intermediate class, and also to let them know objectively just how good they are.
Me too! But you probably guessed that...

[bigdjiver]

There is a lot of difference in a test that you have to pass and an informal nudge from someone to tell someone that they are ready for the intermediate classes. Ceroc changing the recommended number of classes from 6 to 12 has the advantages that if someone is not ready to move up after 10 weeks they do not feel in any way that they are a failure, and if, before that, someone tells them that they are ready to move up, they feel like a winner.

[Lynn]

It was my regular teacher who told me I was ready for the intermediate class after a workshop where she had the opportunity to evaluate my skill level. I'd be a lot less sure I was ready for the move up without her guidance.

So I've moved from beginner to what I call "beginner intermediate" after being informally tested. I'd like to have a teacher tell me in another few months that I can really call myself "intermediate". It'd be a real motivation to improve too. Ie you received feedback - and from a reliable source - the teacher. That helped you judge the level you were at.

I'm not sure about 'tests' - that might put some people off - I think optional feedback - as a part of a workshop - where you dance a couple of dances with a teacher, or maybe one with a teacher and one being observed by a teacher, and then they give you individual feedback - what you are doing right and where you need to improve. It would need a bit more teacher time and input, but probably not everyone would opt for it, and for those who did it would be a help and be motivating. If done at workshop level it would also be targeting the dancers who want to improve, (I presume those who are comfortable with their level and want to enjoy the social aspect of a regular night as much as the dancing, wouldn't tend to go to workshops).

[Gary]

Standards and tests are appropriate for competitive environments. ...
... or for environments where an unskilled/inexperienced person can hurt other people (driving, martial arts, dancing).

[RogerR]

By discussing this we indicate that we have thought about Lead and follow.

I visited an intermediate class out of my home town recently, the teacher (f )started to have a go at the women present for dancing their own steps regardless of the men and the lead. It was horrid to realise that many of those 70 or so women didn't understand the concept of lead and follow though they were doing and intermediate class.

A man will NOT develop a confident, smooth and assertive lead UNLESS his early, formative partners learn to follow. Lead and follow is crucial to the dance and to the dancer's safety and pleasure.

[Lou]

I visited an intermediate class out of my home town recently, the teacher (f )started to have a go at the women present for dancing their own steps regardless of the men and the lead. It was horrid to realise that many of those 70 or so women didn't understand the concept of lead and follow though they were doing and intermediate class.
:angry: What a complete idiot. If the ladies in her class weren't following well, one would assume it's because they hadn't been taught to. :rolleyes: It's not rocket science. And I can hardly see how "having a go" is really going to rectify the situation.

[Gus]

:angry: What a complete idiot. If the ladies in her class weren't following well, one would assume it's because they hadn't been taught to. :rolleyes: It's not rocket science. And I can hardly see how "having a go" is really going to rectify the situation.Not rocket science ... sorry Lou I dont think my experinces match that statement :( It is entirely possible (and a more than frequent occurance) to stand in front of a class, try to re-inforce a single point through examples, metaphor and repetition ... .and as soon as the freestyle starts watch the whole thing go out of the window! :tears:

I dont know why this is. I would say that the intelligence of an average MJ class is well abouve the norm .... does this actualy work against the dancers actualy taking on board what they're taught ... or is it a factor of the bad examples they are being taught elsewhere? While teaching in the North West I took great steps to re-inforce the correct balance, position and lead in and out of drops ... only to have this work all undone by two other teachers who kept on teaching it all the old 'macho' way :angry:

[Lou]

Not rocket science ...
Ach. I phrased it badly. Sorry! I posted whilst cross. :rolleyes:


sorry Lou I dont think my experinces match that statement :( It is entirely possible (and a more than frequent occurance) to stand in front of a class, try to re-inforce a single point through examples, metaphor and repetition ... .and as soon as the freestyle starts watch the whole thing go out of the window! :tears:
But do you blame the dancers? Do you "have a go"? It's frustrating, yes. Or do you go away, re-evaluate & try to work on a better way of getting your point across?


I dont know why this is. I would say that the intelligence of an average MJ class is well abouve the norm .... does this actualy work against the dancers actualy taking on board what they're taught ... or is it a factor of the bad examples they are being taught elsewhere? While teaching in the North West I took great steps to re-inforce the correct balance, position and lead in and out of drops ... only to have this work all undone by two other teachers who kept on teaching it all the old 'macho' way :angry:
It must be very difficult when you have other organisations that don't evolve & also influence your dancers. It's also bloody hard as a dancer to get out of bad habits, even when you're aware of them and want to actively improve.

[Gus]

But do you blame the dancers? Do you "have a go"? It's frustrating, yes. Or do you go away, re-evaluate & try to work on a better way of getting your point across?Funnily enough thats exactly why I started this thread. :wink:

My main attempt at doing it a "better way" was the Cool Catz concept, which had mixed results. It was that experience and listening to Amir's view on repetition (muscle memory) which made me think about other learning models. Not being a cognitive scientist I'm all too aware that there are many approaches that I know nothing about. The thrust of this thread was hopefully, for people with training/teaching expertise to suggest methods that may be transferable to the MJ framework.

Final point, maybe controversial ( :wink: ) ... to date I've seem a huge number of MJ instructors ... but I've not seen anyone teach classes from stage that teach the fundamentals for MJ dancers to learn how to dance rather than do moves ... and I include myself in that categorisation. To be precise, I'm an NOT talking about 'style', being a fantastic competition dancer etc. I'm talking about the basics that 'proper' dance styles coach you in, i.e. balance, sensitivity to partner, musical interpretation, use of floorspace etc. Views? :whistle:

[Lou]

Funnily enough thats exactly why I started this thread. :wink:
Sorry to have diverged (but have I ever mentioned how I hate teachers blaming the students...?)! :wink:

You can carry on now! :D

[El Salsero Gringo]

Final point, maybe controversial ( :wink: ) ... to date I've seem a huge number of MJ instructors ... but I've not seen anyone teach classes from stage that teach the fundamentals for MJ dancers to learn how to dance rather than do moves ... and I include myself in that categorisation. To be precise, I'm an NOT talking about 'style', being a fantastic competition dancer etc. I'm talking about the basics that 'proper' dance styles coach you in, i.e. balance, sensitivity to partner, musical interpretation, use of floorspace etc. Views? :whistle:Hannes Emrich did a lot of this at yesterday's 'squins ballroom workshop. Particularly balance, and sensitivity to partner. Admittedly that wasn't MJ, but it could be done - especially in workshops where there's more time to dwell on 'details' (which aren't merely details, I agree.)

My feeling is that to teach someone to move their body by instructing them "raise the left hand, step forward, turn under your arm" etc., or by giving them an example to watch, is a very inefficient method of teaching someone how and where to move their body. How many times have you watched a move, or listened to a description - and thought that it was very simple, yet when you've come to try it yourself you suddenly find you have *no* idea how to put it into practice? I'm sure there's a much better way to teach this kind of thing, but I don't know what it is, yet.

[Chef]

Final point, maybe controversial ( :wink: ) ... to date I've seem a huge number of MJ instructors ... but I've not seen anyone teach classes from stage that teach the fundamentals for MJ dancers to learn how to dance rather than do moves ... and I include myself in that categorisation. To be precise, I'm an NOT talking about 'style', being a fantastic competition dancer etc. I'm talking about the basics that 'proper' dance styles coach you in, i.e. balance, sensitivity to partner, musical interpretation, use of floorspace etc. Views? :whistle:

I have only ever found lessons about the "how" to dance (I am taking this to mean technique of dance) on weekenders or dance holidays. I found these lessons by far the most useful that I ever had. Once I had managed to take these lessons on board and have those fundamental skills a vast number of moves that I had been taught before but was unable to to suddenly became possible and comfortable. I realised that I had been doing it all the wrong way around (ie moves first and technique later). I had wanted to be taught lots of moves only to find that I could execute none of them well. After these lessons at the weekenders I found that I could revisit all these moves that I had been taught in the past and do much better with them.

These lessons were given to me by Nigel and Nina. Their classes on spinning, lead and follow, musicality and performance as well as Amirs classes on similar themes were great and real "eureka" moments for me. I have long expressed to them my wish that these lessons should be the subject of an in depth video collection or an intense weekend of tution. The feeling of bewilderment as I left these classes thinking "why didn't we get taught this stuff before" will stay with me. Without these skills (IMHO) nothing else seems to work.

I was very heartened to find at the Jivetime weeeknd at Hastings last March that the lesson line up included classes on "lead and follow", "how to dance to slow music", "How to dance to fast music" and "musicality". Hopefully, with these lessons, more people will now be able to get even more enjoyment out of their dancing than they did before as I have done.

I don't think you can make these lessons a requirement of a MJ night so that they are some kind of hurdle for new dancers to pass. You would just lose too many people that would give up. They would be useful as additional lessons offered to intermediate dancers at the venue once a month (having the normal intermediate class and the technique class running at the same time).

The old saying "it ain't what you do it is the way that you do it" is true. I am still learning and will be for quite some time.

[David Bailey]

So, meandering back to the start of the topic (crazy fool!) would I be right in guessing the consensus is that "yes, we're teaching beginners correctly"?

Certainly it seems to me that most of the reforms and effort Ceroc has made over the past couple of years has been in this direction...

[El Salsero Gringo]

So, meandering back to the start of the topic (crazy fool!) would I be right in guessing the consensus is that "yes, we're teaching beginners correctly"?

Certainly it seems to me that most of the reforms and effort Ceroc has made over the past couple of years has been in this direction...Here's a crazy radical idea: bin the Taxi-dancer's workshop. Let the taxi-dancers do the intermediate class as 'experienced students' so that at least a few people in the intermediate class have a clue what's going on. And in place of the taxi-dancers' workshop, have a secondary teacher (maybe not CTA qualified, but certainly with more bona-fides to teach than the average taxi-dancer) teach a 45 minute lead-follow or technique workshop - instead of rehashing the beginners moves.

If you make the beginners workshop interesting and challenging in its own right then you'll solve the problem of how to teach beginners better and also stop people moving up too soon. In fact, you'll probably have to limit the numbers to keep the entire intermediate class from wanting to attend.

[Baruch]

Here's a crazy radical idea: bin the Taxi-dancer's workshop. Let the taxi-dancers do the intermediate class as 'experienced students' so that at least a few people in the intermediate class have a clue what's going on. And in place of the taxi-dancers' workshop, have a secondary teacher (maybe not CTA qualified, but certainly with more bona-fides to teach than the average taxi-dancer) teach a 45 minute lead-follow or technique workshop - instead of rehashing the beginners moves.

If you make the beginners workshop interesting and challenging in its own right then you'll solve the problem of how to teach beginners better and also stop people moving up too soon. In fact, you'll probably have to limit the numbers to keep the entire intermediate class from wanting to attend.
I must say that's an interesting idea, and one that could well work. Which probably means that it'll never be done :whistle:

[David Bailey]

Here's a crazy radical idea: bin the Taxi-dancer's workshop. Let the taxi-dancers do the intermediate class as 'experienced students' so that at least a few people in the intermediate class have a clue what's going on.
:yeah: Excellent idea. Taxis used to do this, oh waaaay back when, before it was decided they'd be better off as cheap substitute teachers than doing the intermediate class. Which was when I decided I'd be better off enjoying myself dancing than being an unpaid teacher...


And in place of the taxi-dancers' workshop, have a secondary teacher (maybe not CTA qualified, but certainly with more bona-fides to teach than the average taxi-dancer) teach a 45 minute lead-follow or technique workshop - instead of rehashing the beginners moves.
:yeah: Even better idea - I'd like to go to those myself!