Catching the lady's hand...

[David Bailey]

Yet another thing I find difficult (amazing I can dance at all really :) ):

I sometimes want to lead a move that starts out with me behind, the lady in front, both facing the same way (i.e. lady facing front), and both with arms spread out wide and to either side (double hand hold, L-L and R-R). Usually this move is one of those flashy-footwork things by the lady, maybe with a dip and slow wiggly rise. Mmm, lovely move....

Anyway, is there an elegant way to catch the lady's left hand from a return, or to signal "Hold your left hand out", without actually shouting that?

I can grab the lady's left hand, no problem, but this is usually from a sway-type move, and I'd like to do it from a return. But whenever I try, it looks awkward...

So, any tips on arm-catching?

[Graham]

If you trail your left hand across her back as she's returning then this is both a signal, and also should allow you to continue trailing up her arm and catch her hand. Even if it doesn't exactly work, your left hand will be in an "offer" position and since you're already holding on to her right hand she should take it with her left.

[El Salsero Gringo]

So you're trying to lead a return with the right hand and collect the lady's spare left hand with your left? The back-trailing thing should work, but in my head I'm finding the return a bit awkward.

How about doing it while swapping places, so it starts like a catapault, you trail the back and take the spare arm as the lady steps past you and you turn to face. Lower the left, raise the right over the lady's head to turn her 180 as you both step in, et voila.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Or else execute a swift Neck-Break-Cleaver-Hook, keeping hold of both hands and ending on quick anti-clockwise spin for the lady.

[spindr]

Anyway, is there an elegant way to catch the lady's left hand from a return, or to signal "Hold your left hand out", without actually shouting that?

Definitely agree with the trailing down the shoulder and arm technique (http://www.afterfive.co.uk/guide/latest/html/leading.html#transitioning_from_single_handed_move s_into_double_handed_moves).

Of course, you could simply offer your hand for the follower to take (http://www.afterfive.co.uk/guide/latest/html/following.html#taking_hands) -- although a lot of MJ followers are usually surprised that you might want to take their left hand (maybe they're all right-handed :whistle: ).

My favourite sneaky hand change is simply to lead a right-to-right lady comb and then let my right hand drop behind the lady's shoulder so that I can easily take her left arm (which is usually just hanging at her side :) ) as we step apart.

Or failing that -- lead a basket and a return and swap the hands at the apex of the return :)

SpinDr.

[MartinHarper]

I've heard this move called a crucifix, but I've never seen an entrance directly from a one-handed return: normally the other hand is picked up from a preceding move, such as an accordion or sway.

[Rhythm King]

Or else execute a swift Neck-Break-Cleaver-Hook, keeping hold of both hands and ending on quick anti-clockwise spin for the lady.

Yup, that would do it in my book, or else the anti-clockwise accordian RH comb, release right and offer it under lady's left arm, to unwrap as above into crucifix.

On the other hand, Amir teaches a tango-based move which starts single-handed and has the desired ending, but it relies on the lady having a semi-active follow, with a dynamic spare arm. Seems to work first time, every time for him, less so for us mortals, unless it's just been in the routine he's taught in class and the lady is semi-expecting it.

Not letting go of both hands in a catapult and taking your right over your head then over hers as she turns clockwise to your left side would work too, but of course that wouldn't be from a single handed entry would it? I'll shut up and get back in my box now :blush:

[David Bailey]

Great suggestions, guys...

I've heard this move called a crucifix, but I've never seen an entrance directly from a one-handed return: normally the other hand is picked up from a preceding move, such as an accordion or sway.
That's probably why I'm finding it tricky (good name, BTW!).

The move I'd like to do, to lead into it, is a right-hand-led cross-body, with return, into that crucifix position. And yes, it's yet another port from salsa - my longterm aim to dance only salsa in MJ :)

So for that, I dunno if the trailing-hand-over-shoulder thing is workable, it'll might look awkward... OTOH, if I can do it late enough in the move it might work.

The catapult-y suggestions sound like they'd work... nice, actually. But I don't think it'd fit into the sequence I have in my head.


Or else execute a swift Neck-Break-Cleaver-Hook
Tell me you're making that one up....


On the other hand, Amir teaches a tango-based move which starts single-handed and has the desired ending, but it relies on the lady having a semi-active follow, with a dynamic spare arm.
You know, I suspect that's what I need. If I could in some way indicate to the lady that she should stick her hand out, that'd be ideal.

Hmmm, guinea-pigs needed, methinks :)

[Feelingpink]

...

I sometimes want to lead a move that starts out with me behind, the lady in front, both facing the same way (i.e. lady facing front), and both with arms spread out wide and to either side (double hand hold, L-L and R-R). Usually this move is one of those flashy-footwork things by the lady, maybe with a dip and slow wiggly rise. Mmm, lovely move....



Andy McGregor kept doing this move on Monday night at Jango ... only he was in front :devil: Perhaps he could comment?

[El Salsero Gringo]

... but it relies on the lady having a semi-active follow, with a dynamic spare arm.Not possible I'm afraid. The "semi-active follow" was only ever available on the Partner9000 (TM) model, which came with the same hydraulically damped, fully gimballed but passive (unpowered) spare arm as the preceeding type codes. The "dynamic" spare arm wasn't released until the 9050 model (and not in fact really useable until the succeeding model 9100 upgrade) by which time the following circuitry had also been upgraded to a self-correcting servo-assisted fully-active mechanism - the one with the gas-bearings and self-sealing lubrication system.

(And I wonder why no-one wants to dance with me?)

[Feelingpink]

Not possible I'm afraid. The "semi-active follow" was only ever available on the Partner9000 (TM) model, which came with the same hydraulically damped, fully gimballed but passive (unpowered) spare arm as the preceeding type codes. The "dynamic" spare arm wasn't released until the 9050 model (and not in fact really useable until the succeeding model 9100 upgrade) by which time the following circuitry had also been upgraded to a self-correcting servo-assisted fully-active mechanism - the one with the gas-bearings and self-sealing lubrication system.

(And I wonder why no-one wants to dance with me?)

Go on, start a poll on whether you would be best suited to talking dance, actually dancing or staying in the kitchen cooking ... I dare you :devil:

[Yliander]

Anyway, is there an elegant way to catch the lady's left hand from a return, or to signal "Hold your left hand out", without actually shouting that?

*snip*

So, any tips on arm-catching?there is a very easy way to to pick up a ladies hand as you return her.

as you return the lady as her left shoulder passes by you place your right hand on her shoulder blade and trail your hand down and under her arm with your palm up - and wa la you end up in a basic hand hold

this also works if you are returning the lady with your right hand and want to pick up her right hand - just place your left hand on her right shoulder and trail

this way of picking up may seem awkard at first but having taught it during my last three consolidation classes - I can assure you once you are comfortable with it - it flows seamlessly - even with beginners

one of the tricks is to not leave it too late to place your hand on the shoulder - the later you try and place it on the shoulder the more chance you will miss the shoulder as the girl goes past and it will become awkward

[El Salsero Gringo]

The move I'd like to do, to lead into it, is a right-hand-led cross-body, with return, into that crucifix position. And yes, it's yet another port from salsa - my longterm aim to dance only salsa in MJ :) Well then, you should have said so:

Do your cross-body, but on the 1, put your right arm behind the lady's neck to her right shoulder swapping her right hand from your left to your right (a bit like a neck-break, but not quite the same). On 3, open up your "door", on five-six-seven make sure she does an outside turn and take her spare hand as she goes past. Then do your double handed 180 instead of a return so she has her back to you.
Tell me you're making that one up....Not at all. Robin showed me that one.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Go on, start a poll on whether you would be best suited to talking dance, actually dancing or staying in the kitchen cooking ... I dare you :devil:I would do, but they aren't independent. If my mouth and feet stop moving then my hands stop baking too.

[David Bailey]

Well then, you should have said so:

Well yes, but I only worked out why I wanted to do it just now. Besides, if I reveal everything at once, where's the fun in that?



Do your cross-body, but on the 1, put your right arm behind the lady's neck to her right shoulder swapping her right hand from your left to your right (a bit like a neck-break, but not quite the same). On 3, open up your "door", on five-six-seven make sure she does an outside turn and take her spare hand as she goes past. Then do your double handed 180 instead of a return so she has her back to you.

Ooh, that sounds good... Except I want to lead it with my right hand up until the crucifix bit. Picky, that's me. Mind you, that's not to say I won't try that version...


Not at all. Robin showed me that one.
I was referring to the name, it sounds like something from the Texas Chainsaw Massacre...

[El Salsero Gringo]

Except I want to lead it with my right hand up until the crucifix bit.OK then, just lead the cross body with the right hand and loop your right arm over the lady's head on the one-two, instead of swapping hands. The rest as before.
Picky, that's me.You said it, buster.

I was referring to the name, it sounds like something from the Texas Chainsaw Massacre...And it feels like something from Driller Killer. Looks great though.

[Rhythm King]

Not possible I'm afraid. The "semi-active follow" was only ever available on the Partner9000 (TM) model, which came with the same hydraulically damped, fully gimballed but passive (unpowered) spare arm as the preceeding type codes. The "dynamic" spare arm wasn't released until the 9050 model (and not in fact really useable until the succeeding model 9100 upgrade) by which time the following circuitry had also been upgraded to a self-correcting servo-assisted fully-active mechanism - the one with the gas-bearings and self-sealing lubrication system.

(And I wonder why no-one wants to dance with me?)

You've been drinking the mule fuel again, haven't you?

Anyway the Cyberdyne Systems MJ5000 with multi-phase bpm management, infra-red tracking and chrome molybdenum spare arm gimbals is far better than the Partner9000 (so long as you don't get the Sarah Connor edition) as any fule know

[El Salsero Gringo]

You've been drinking the mule fuel again, haven't you?How dare you, sirrah!? I'm actually an ass (as any mule know.)

[Mary]

Methinks the ass has been in the pantry. Somebody lock him in before he wreaks more havoc in the cyberkitchen :devil:

M

[MartinHarper]

there is a very easy way to to pick up a ladies hand as you return her. As you return the lady as her left shoulder passes by you place your right hand on her shoulder blade and trail your hand down and under her arm with your palm up - and wa la you end up in a basic hand hold.

I think David was wanting to get into a crossed two handed hold - IE, L-L, R-R, rather than a basic two handed hold as you describe. Would the same technique work for that?

[David Bailey]

I think David was wanting to get into a crossed two handed hold - IE, L-L, R-R, rather than a basic two handed hold as you describe.
</QUOTE]
Yep! Or, "crucifix hold" as I shall forevermore refer to it :)

[QUOTE=MartinHarper]Would the same technique work for that?
Don't think so, but I think the whole "trailing hand" thing looks like the best way to go with that. I'll have a play and see how it goes...

[El Salsero Gringo]

If you turn her really really really really fast with your right hand holding her right, then centrifugal force will make her left arm to fly out so you can take it. If her head doesn't unscrew and fall off first.

[Graham]

I think David was wanting to get into a crossed two handed hold - IE, L-L, R-R, rather than a basic two handed hold as you describe. Would the same technique work for that?
You won't be able to get a classic palm-to-palm hold, but you should be able to get some kind of contact which you can adjust on the next beat.

[David Bailey]

If you turn her really really really really fast with your right hand holding her right, then centrifugal force will make her left arm to fly out so you can take it. If her head doesn't unscrew and fall off first.
Now that's just silly.


I mean, obviously the shoes will fall off first, the head is in line with the centre of gravity.

But then I can never remember which is centrifugal and which is centripetal.

[Yliander]

I think David was wanting to get into a crossed two handed hold - IE, L-L, R-R, rather than a basic two handed hold as you describe. Would the same technique work for that?having just tried this in the file room with an imaginary partner - I think it would work - would just need to rotate the trailing hand to be able to pick up correctly - will get my dance partner to test it on me on Saturday and will be able to give you a definitive answer

[David Bailey]

having just tried this in the file room with an imaginary partner
Heh, not just me who does that then :)

I was thinking about this move / routine, and it's quite incredible how something which fundamentally is a very simple set of motions (turn the lady half-turn anti-clockwise, catch her spare hand) takes so much thought to do well.

All the complexity is in the timing, the footwork, and the styling. Which I think is a Good Thing, I'm not a big fan of complex moves.

[Yliander]

Heh, not just me who does that then :) If I do it at my desk my co-workers look at me very strangely :sick:

[Jeremy]

If I do it at my desk my co-workers look at me very strangely :sick:

They dont already look at you strangely? :what:

[Yliander]

They dont already look at you strangely? :what: :yum: Ok more strangely than they already do

[David Bailey]

:yum: Ok more strangely than they already do

Because being caught doing that in the filing room won't be seen as at all strange :)

(I suppose it's different from the standard extra-curricular activities in such rooms :) )

[Yliander]

Because being caught doing that in the filing room won't be seen as at all strange :)

(I suppose it's different from the standard extra-curricular activities in such rooms :) ) :rofl: :rofl:

[David Bailey]

Update on this. I tried all the combos and possibilities suggested by others last night (thanks, all :flower: ).

However, it's just not working, and I think it's only ever going to work as a choreographed move. Getting the lady to stick her hand out far enough to be caught is so unnatural that I don't believe it's lead-able, to someone who doesn't know it's coming.

Looks like this one will have to join the dustbin of Great Unworkable Move Ideas, and I'll have to stick with sway-type leads to get into the crucifix. Curses, foiled again... :tears:

[Gadget]

Single handed lead into a crucifix?
I'm sure a turn & a half blocked on the shoulder could be moved into a crucifix - need to use your chest on the lady's back to keep her from turning...
Alternativly, a pull-through catching the off-hand and moving with the lady sould be able to flow into a crucifix...
You should also be able to lead it from a yo-yo or cattapult type lead with a duck-under...
Or some sort or high-line push-spin type thing may work where the arm is extended to start with and you push it to turn the lady and block on the extended arm (actually I want to try somthing like this for another move.)

I normally go into the crucifix by sliding one way and extending the arm, then keeping the arm extended as I slide the other way and extend the other arm.

I'll experiment tonight: how smooth did you want it?

[David Bailey]

I'll experiment tonight: how smooth did you want it?
Ideally, I'd like it with no body contact apart from hands (very unusual for me :wink: ), so I can go straight into the next move. But I don't think that's achievable from a normal lead, it'd have to be choreographed.

But please let me know if you can get it to work!

[Gadget]

Got it to work, but needs some practice before it's smooth and crisp:
Blocking on the second turn simply confused most ladys so I aborted the move and just slid out.
Pulling accross and from a simple return both work, but you have to move with the lady and put her into the crucifix while traveling: as your right arm is extending, the lady will naturally want to follow it - side-step with her to maintain the same relative body position and collect the left with yours (I found that the wrist/fore-arm was easier to gather). Use the extension of this arm as the lead to hault travel while changing from tension to compression on the right.
Managed to lead this a few times in freestyle with ladys of varying ability. (But people always expect me to lead unusual moves, so rarely anticipate too much)
I don't think that there is any way to lead it in freestyle crisply and stationary from a standard speed turn - it's the extension of the arm that does it.
... although you could block with the left hand on the lady's right hip; didn't try that. Would still mean that the timing is in three counts: turn. extend/block. collect into cross. Sharper, but not as smooth as: turn. extend & follow while collecting. hault into cross. Depends on the music I suppose.

I don't think there's a way to extend both arms at the same time without blocking with your chest/shoulder (like a wrap, except the lady is half-infront rather than to the side)

[Yliander]

having just tried this in the file room with an imaginary partner - I think it would work - would just need to rotate the trailing hand to be able to pick up correctly - will get my dance partner to test it on me on Saturday and will be able to give you a definitive answer It works :clap: it works :clap:

Tested this my dance partner last Saturday - and it works fine - just have to pick up with a hook/backhanded hand hold with the trailing hand to make a smooth pick up of the ladies hand.