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Easter Bunny
3rd-May-2005, 04:28 PM
First of all (not just to show this thread is not 'just sour grapes' so to speak) - Well Done to Black Magic at the Ceroc Champs on Sunday. Their performance was excellent, different (with the pyrotechnics etc.,) and exciting.

My beef is, I thought team cabarets were to include different shapes, partner changing, larger number of dancers (i.e more than 3 couples ?). In fact recent advice from a 'judge' was to arrange costumes in a way to 'show up' shapes and different formations.

One of the hardest aspects of being involved in a team cabaret is the number of people involved, not just from a dancing point of view, i.e keeping in time, positions in shape format etc., but the sheer logistics of trying to get everyone together at the same time for practice and performance.

When there are just three couples involved, this makes the effort much easier, in fact, the couples could even practice separately to the track and only get together very occasionally if they are going to maintain the same positions throughout the performance.

This results in great entertainment value I admit, and that's what we saw on the day, but in my mind, it's not a team cabaret.

Once again this is not a moan about who gave the better performance on the day, but the basic rule of what constitutes a team cabaret.

I have probably opened the floodgates here for some stick, but would be interested to hear other people's views on this.

stewart38
3rd-May-2005, 04:33 PM
First of all (not just to show this thread is not 'just sour grapes' so to speak) - Well Done to Black Magic at the Ceroc Champs on Sunday. Their performance was excellent, different (with the pyrotechnics etc.,) and exciting.

My beef is, I thought team cabarets were to include different shapes, partner changing, larger number of dancers (i.e more than 3 couples ?). In fact recent advice from a 'judge' was to arrange costumes in a way to 'show up' shapes and different formations.

One of the hardest aspects of being involved in a team cabaret is the number of people involved, not just from a dancing point of view, i.e keeping in time, positions in shape format etc., but the sheer logistics of trying to get everyone together at the same time for practice and performance.

When there are just three couples involved, this makes the effort much easier, in fact, the couples could even practice separately to the track and only get together very occasionally if they are going to maintain the same positions throughout the performance.

This results in great entertainment value I admit, and that's what we saw on the day, but in my mind, it's not a team cabaret.

Once again this is not a moan about who gave the better performance on the day, but the basic rule of what constitutes a team cabaret.

I have probably opened the floodgates here for some stick, but would be interested to hear other people's views on this.


Totally agree. The larger groups had more people out of sinc but your going to get that with greater nos

Dreadful Scathe
3rd-May-2005, 04:46 PM
My beef is, I thought team cabarets were to include different shapes, partner changing, larger number of dancers (i.e more than 3 couples ?). In fact recent advice from a 'judge' was to arrange costumes in a way to 'show up' shapes and different formations.


Im sure what the judge said was true..IF you have different 'shapes' to show, but you dont necessarily have to.

The numbers stated in the Team rules say 3 couples minimum (correct me If im wrong here) so its quite clear what they mean by a team cabaret.

Also, I'd say the bigger team has a distinct advantage, because if they do manage to synchronise well with more couples they would always get more points for it then a 3 couple team who also synchronise well.


in fact, the couples could even practice separately to the track and only get together very occasionally if they are going to maintain the same positions throughout the performance.

Any team can do this with decent planning. We did for ours and we had 8 couples. Also, Im sure the team that won the ceroc champs a few years ago was made up of two groups that only performed together on the day.

Graham
3rd-May-2005, 05:45 PM
Also, Im sure the team that won the ceroc champs a few years ago was made up of two groups that only performed together on the day.
Actually (you know how I hate to be pedantic) they were only runners-up. However as it happens I think that particular year also demonstrates your other point - the team which one had IIRC nine couples and had extremely good synchronisation and I think that's what won them it over a technically more demanding performance from the 4-couple runners-up team.

Dreadful Scathe
3rd-May-2005, 05:48 PM
Actually (you know how I hate to be pedantic) [ more words ] the team which one had

one what ? :D

Pedants R us :)

Graham
3rd-May-2005, 06:45 PM
one what ? :D

Pedants R us :)
Okay guv, it's a fair cop. :blush:

Young Jiver
3rd-May-2005, 08:50 PM
This is the first time that I have ever been on the Ceroc Forum, and it is great. I have loved reading what you all have had to say about things.

I hope I don't get addicted, as I have heard many people are, any tips?

I had a great time on Sunday at the champs and cannot wait until next year. In relation to the team cabaret section of the competition it seems to me that if you increase on quantity, then there is an automatic decrease in quality, and it is a dance competition after all!

Further, I think that if there are less dancers in a team, any mistakes will show up so much more, there is no where to hide in a team of 3.

Finally, where on earth did those masks and sticks go??????

I am still wondering!

Lindsay
3rd-May-2005, 08:53 PM
One of the hardest aspects of being involved in a team cabaret is the number of people involved, not just from a dancing point of view, i.e keeping in time, positions in shape format etc., but the sheer logistics of trying to get everyone together at the same time for practice and performance.

There should definitely be brownie points for sheer effort in co-ordinating large groups [and bonus points for xxxxxx xxxxxxxx] :wink: I guess you're judged on complexity of dance moves, use of floor, TIMING (the most important IMO), presentation, creativity and originality. Smaller teams could easily attain all of the above, but may need to work harder on formations as they may not make so much of an impact as with larger teams.

jivecat
3rd-May-2005, 09:58 PM
I hope I don't get addicted, as I have heard many people are, any tips?




Yes, switch your computer off immediately, NOW, and burn it.

JCat
3rd-May-2005, 11:45 PM
First of all (not just to show this thread is not 'just sour grapes' so to speak) - Well Done to Black Magic at the Ceroc Champs on Sunday. Their performance was excellent, different (with the pyrotechnics etc.,) and exciting.

My beef is, I thought team cabarets were to include different shapes, partner changing, larger number of dancers (i.e more than 3 couples ?). In fact recent advice from a 'judge' was to arrange costumes in a way to 'show up' shapes and different formations.

One of the hardest aspects of being involved in a team cabaret is the number of people involved, not just from a dancing point of view, i.e keeping in time, positions in shape format etc., but the sheer logistics of trying to get everyone together at the same time for practice and performance.

When there are just three couples involved, this makes the effort much easier, in fact, the couples could even practice separately to the track and only get together very occasionally if they are going to maintain the same positions throughout the performance.

This results in great entertainment value I admit, and that's what we saw on the day, but in my mind, it's not a team cabaret.

Once again this is not a moan about who gave the better performance on the day, but the basic rule of what constitutes a team cabaret.

I have probably opened the floodgates here for some stick, but would be interested to hear other people's views on this.


As a member of one of the larger teams there on Sunday, :wink: I am not sure I quite agree. Yes, it is a complete logistical nightmare to try and get everyone together at the same time to practice, but at the end of the day you are not marked in a competition on the fact that because you have a larger team its more difficult to get together! I also think the amount of couples for sunday was limited to 10? Which is not as many as some of the teams out there may well have. (I would also like to just say its hard to do arials with a large team in such a confined space, there is much more scope for collision!!! :tears: )

Formations and partner changing are, however, all part of a team cabaret, and with six people, that's going to be much more difficult - after all there is only so much you can do with fewer people. The challenge, when you have less people, is to do something to make up for the fact that you CAN'T do as much clever stuff with partners and formations - and I think that is exactly what we saw on Sunday, what do you think?

bigdjiver
4th-May-2005, 02:09 AM
Welcome Young Jiver.


... In relation to the team cabaret section of the competition it seems to me that if you increase on quantity, then there is an automatic decrease in quality, and it is a dance competition after all!
... Busby Berkeley?

It is a Team Cabaret section, there is no actual requirement for any formation dancing, although it would be expected. It is possible to imagine a theme, such as a wedding or a circus, where all of the dancers expressed their different roles and personalities by different interpretations of the music. Such a performance can be carried by the stars, and nobody will be paying too much attention to most of the work of the bit players.

Easter Bunny
4th-May-2005, 12:36 PM
Actually (you know how I hate to be pedantic) they were only runners-up.

Uh ?? :confused:

Black Magic (who I was referring to) had 6 people (3 couples) and came 1st
and Dancelicious had 9 couples and were runners up

I think ?

Dreadful Scathe
4th-May-2005, 12:42 PM
Uh ?? :confused:

Black Magic (who I was referring to) had 6 people (3 couples) and came 1st
and Dancelicious had 9 couples and were runners up

I think ?
....we were talking about the Ceroc Champs a few years ago - pay attention :D

Thats the problem with Easter Bunnies - its all go, go, go when you have eggs to deliver but now Easters passed...no idea whats going on. ;)

Anyway - was Dancelicious the Kylie routine from Blackpool ?

Easter Bunny
4th-May-2005, 12:59 PM
....we were talking about the Ceroc Champs a few years ago - pay attention :D

Thats the problem with Easter Bunnies - its all go, go, go when you have eggs to deliver but now Easters passed...no idea whats going on. ;)


Sorry - this bunny is still tired from Sunday, never mind Easter! :confused:


Anyway - was Dancelicious the Kylie routine from Blackpool ?

Yes - it was the Kylie routine - only with slightly few numbers to comply with the maximumum allowed at Hammersmith.

One or two people commented on the day that it was an exact rip off from Kylie's video, but as I have never seen Kylie's video - I could not comment on this.

JCat
4th-May-2005, 04:03 PM
Yes - it was the Kylie routine - only with slightly few numbers to comply with the maximumum allowed at Hammersmith.

One or two people commented on the day that it was an exact rip off from Kylie's video, but as I have never seen Kylie's video - I could not comment on this.



I am afraid it was not a rip off from the Kylie routine - watch it and see!!!!

Retread
4th-May-2005, 04:30 PM
Black Magic is the combination of Ceroc Surrey's Ewell crew, past and present: Karen, Glen and Paul (now running their own venue in Romford, Essex) and Boba, Keelan and Charlotte, who are the current luminaries at Bourne Hall, Ewell.

These guys are awesome, believe me. . . . . . .

Retread.

Easter Bunny
4th-May-2005, 04:43 PM
Black Magic is the combination of Ceroc Surrey's Ewell crew, past and present: Karen, Glen and Paul (now running their own venue in Romford, Essex) and Boba, Keelan and Charlotte, who are the current luminaries at Bourne Hall, Ewell.

These guys are awesome, believe me. . . . . . .

Retread.

:yeah: :worthy: I never said otherwise. It was just a general comment on what constituted a team cabaret as I was in some confusion about it as previously had only seen 'large' groups doing team cabarets in competition.

Easter Bunny
4th-May-2005, 04:45 PM
I am afraid it was not a rip off from the Kylie routine - watch it and see!!!!


Fair enoughsky :flower:

Magic Hans
4th-May-2005, 06:18 PM
There should definitely be brownie points for sheer effort in co-ordinating large groups [and bonus points for xxxxxx xxxxxxxx] :wink: I guess you're judged on complexity of dance moves, use of floor, TIMING (the most important IMO), presentation, creativity and originality. Smaller teams could easily attain all of the above, but may need to work harder on formations as they may not make so much of an impact as with larger teams.

:yeah: :yeah:

Not only is there the extra difficulty, but also some compromise has to be on the skill and ability of the dancers. I remember watching a three couple (mexico styles, I think) routine up in blackpool a few years ago. Unless I am mistaken, which really is quite likely!! Most of the team members were (or had been) instructors. Compare that with Dundee's "Chicago" team (again a few years back), with it's ten or so couples, props (hats and doors), and costume change. Somewhat more challenging in my humble opinion.

Then again, that's the story with judging, it is, at the end of the day, a set of opinions .... hopefully from recognised and respected dancers and ex-dancers.

Personally were I be in competition, I'd be reassured if judges were obliged to provide scores, and comments for their judgements [even if anonymous]. Such openness puts everyone in the picture, and demands that judges take ownership and responsibility for their actions.

Ian

Dreadful Scathe
4th-May-2005, 09:37 PM
I remember watching a three couple (mexico styles, I think) routine up in blackpool a few years ago. Unless I am mistaken, which really is quite likely!! Most of the team members were (or had been) instructors.

It was Amir, Clayton, Graham LeClerc (sp? ) and respected partners I believe. Being blind and stupid, I may be wrong :). They were not placed with that routine for some reason.



Compare that with Dundee's "Chicago" team (again a few years back), with it's ten or so couples, props (hats and doors), and costume change. Somewhat more challenging in my humble opinion.

Yeah many years back that was....cough....how fast does time travel on your world ? :) id agree anyway, more couples make it harder and when done well it looks fantastic.

Heather
4th-May-2005, 10:12 PM
: Compare that with Dundee's "Chicago" team (again a few years back), with it's ten or so couples, props (hats and doors), and costume change. Somewhat more challenging in my humble opinion.


Ian

It was only last year !!! ( Blackpool 2004) I ought to know, I was in it!!

:kiss: :hug:
Heather,
xx

P.S My sister Wendy( partner of David Chu in London this year) was the choreoghrapher. :worthy:

Dance Demon
4th-May-2005, 11:20 PM
I remember watching a three couple (mexico styles, I think) routine up in blackpool a few years ago. Unless I am mistaken, which really is quite likely!! Most of the team members were (or had been) instructors.

I remember that routine.....danced to Sash's Ecuador......by the people DS has mentioned. It was very polished & professional performance.....and wasn't placed. 1st place went to Dundee team for their proclaimers routine, and 2nd place went to Fatal attraction, (also from Scotland). The year after was won by Dundee teams Chicago routine, and second place to Mouth to Mouth from Edinburgh...Scottish teams 1st & 2nd two years running :worthy: :worthy: and Spaced Out( from Edinburgh)won this year...... :clap:

Graham
5th-May-2005, 08:23 AM
Not that we're nationalistic or anything........:wink:

Robin
5th-May-2005, 09:00 AM
Just for anyone's information, BGlen told me that Black Magic originally started with 6 couples but due to injury they ended up with only 3 !

I have to say that as part of the UrbanMetro team from last year, people really do need to appreciate the amount of work that goes in to producing a Team Cabaret .... Tezi & myself probably did the least amount of work for it (family & work commitments) but still spent over 100 hours.The other members of the team spent at least 50% more time on it. The logistics to bring the team together at the same time was also a nightmare - there were 24 of us and there were only a few times that the entire team managed to meet up. Then you've got the problems inherrent with any "production" - so on the basis that probably all the teams are composed of non proffessional dancers its amazing that we ever have any team cabarets!

Dreadful Scathe
5th-May-2005, 09:20 AM
Just for anyone's information, BGlen told me that Black Magic originally started with 6 couples but due to injury they ended up with only 3 !


sheesh. did the rabbit run amok when it got pulled out of the hat? thats half your time injured!! :)

Retread
5th-May-2005, 10:55 AM
Very close, DS: wrong move and Keelan turns the offender into a frog. Still searching the Essex marshes for those that failed the auditions. . . . . .

Retread.

David Franklin
5th-May-2005, 11:14 AM
I remember that routine.....danced to Sash's Ecuador......by the people DS has mentioned. It was very polished & professional performance.....and wasn't placed. 1st place went to Dundee team for their proclaimers routine, and 2nd place went to Fatal attraction, (also from Scotland). :yeah: It's possibly a heretical comment, but although the standard of dancing is important, I think it's also important that a team cabaret is "more than the sum of its parts". The very best cabarets have given a feeling that this is a team that is doing something the participants couldn't do as individuals.

I think in some ways it's actually very difficult for a group of exceptional dancers to pull off a team performance. Most people raise their game for a team cabaret - it's often the only time they've performed, rehearsed moves etc... But for the top dancers, they often end up "dancing down" - each has spent years developing a unique style with strengths and weaknesses, but they have to dance together and in unison. And most top couples have been together for years, so they suffer more when exchanging partners. They may still dance very well as a team, but they will find it hard to live up to individual reputations. And I think that disappointment translates to reduced applause from the audience and reduced marks from the judges.

Young Jiver
5th-May-2005, 10:38 PM
Hello Again,

I have read the comments on team size and I think that it is all swings and roundabouts really. A large team will make an impact on the judges (and the audience) the moment they walk onto the floor, simply due to their size. Therefore, a smaller team is already at a disadvantage and has so much more to do to make up for their lack of numbers.

The smaller teams seem to have harder and more challenging routines and because of that, the rehearsal hours probably work out much the same as being in a large team.

Surely the cabaret that deserves to win the championships is the one that creates the biggest impression on the judges (and the audience), whether that is due to large numbers doing formations, or smaller numbers doing a fantastic routine and adding a little something extra e.g. magic.

The winning team needs to provide entertainment and needs to be remembered in the minds of the judges for whatever reason, and I think that whichever team manages to stand out, should win. (unless they stand out for being rubbish - obviously!)

David Bailey
6th-May-2005, 08:38 AM
, or smaller numbers doing a fantastic routine and adding a little something extra e.g. magic.
:D
Just had a weird image of Paul Daniels suddenly appearing in the middle of a routine :sick:

I've never seen a MJ cabaret, so as usual I speak from utter ignorance, but it does sound like there was a wide range of allowable team sizes, which may have made judging more difficult (i.e. I presume it's more difficult to compare a team of 18 and a team of 6, against two teams of 6)?

What I'd love to see is an equivalent of La Rueda in MJ - I vaguely remember reading about something like this somewhere, anyone heard of it? Basically, all the dancers are in a big circle (ladies in inner circle, men in outer), and partners rotate around, doing synchronised steps as determined by a caller. I know, sounds horribly like folk / line dancing, but it looks very cool, in salsa at least.

Rhythm King
6th-May-2005, 12:21 PM
They do a Lindy one at Beach Boogie each year. It's a good way of learning the basics

R-K

Dreadful Scathe
6th-May-2005, 04:56 PM
What I'd love to see is an equivalent of La Rueda in MJ

the equivalent ? thatd be called ..er...Rueda then :) Rueda is great fun, especially at parties. I suppose you could do the circle thing with jive moves to jive music easy enough.


that it is all swings and roundabouts really

Dont you dare steal my next cabaret idea 'kids in the playground' is winning blackpool next year i tell you :)

Lindsay
6th-May-2005, 06:33 PM
Hello Again...... ....The obviously!)
:yeah:
Such wisdom for one so young....
Totally agree :D

bigdjiver
7th-May-2005, 09:56 AM
I have seen a rueda tried at a small MJ class which was being taught in a circle with movers on interspersed. It was great fun, and I think most wanted to try it again. Alas, it did descend into chaos, and the teacher never gave us the chance to try again and do better.

David Bailey
7th-May-2005, 03:37 PM
the equivalent ? thatd be called ..er...Rueda then :)
"CircleRoc", it's a winner I tell you!


Rueda is great fun, especially at parties. I suppose you could do the circle thing with jive moves to jive music easy enough.

Except that you probably need a uniformly competent set of MJ-ers to do it, or, as stated, it goes horribly wrong.

And judging MJ-er levels is - Oh hold on, wrong thread... :)

bigdjiver
7th-May-2005, 05:11 PM
One of my favourite fun classes is dancing in fours, swapping partners. A bit of practise in that and Rueda would be a breeze.