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Clive Long
3rd-May-2005, 09:54 AM
... or do you find the instructions on most modern devices almost incomprehensible?

I have taken to writing list summary labels and sticking them with transparent self-adhesive sheet (what was known as sticky-back plastic in Blue Peter of the 60's) on to almost every device I own: digital camera, portable MP3 player, 5 band programmable radio, steam-iron (it comes with a 12 page manual !!) and a timer built into a plug (6 page manual with that one).

Oh for the days of the Light Programme, In Town Tonight and a cup of half-dissolved Horlicks.


Clive (official M.O.G.)

Feelingpink
3rd-May-2005, 10:34 AM
I have taken to writing list summary labels and sticking them with transparent self-adhesive sheet (what was known as sticky-back plastic in Blue Peter of the 60's) on to almost every device I own: digital camera, portable MP3 player, 5 band programmable radio, steam-iron (it comes with a 12 page manual !!) and a timer built into a plug (6 page manual with that one).


If you're offering this as a service to householders, you'd be onto a goldmine ... fancy a change of career? :whistle:

David Bailey
3rd-May-2005, 10:38 AM
... or do you find the instructions on most modern devices almost incomprehensible?

I have taken to writing list summary labels and sticking them with transparent self-adhesive sheet (what was known as sticky-back plastic in Blue Peter of the 60's) on to almost every device I own: digital camera, portable MP3 player, 5 band programmable radio, steam-iron (it comes with a 12 page manual !!) and a timer built into a plug (6 page manual with that one).
It's not you.

This "I hate the instructions" pretty much all started with the flood of Japanese-made VCRs twenty years ago. Japanese culture is such that the instructions with those were descriptive rather than proscriptive. In other words, you have a lot of complex diagrams and "how-it-fits-together" explanations, but not much on "to record a programme, do this". Combine this with the fact that, for many families, a VCR was the most complex piece of machinery they'd ever used, and you get an instant bad rep, which the industry has spent 20 years trying to fix...

Added to this, now most device instructions are written as cheaply as possible - look at any Ikea instructions sheet. Minimizes production and translation costs. Also, for a low-value high-volume product, the manufacturers figure that you get what you've paid for.

Writing your own instructions down, if you have the time, is eminently sensible - you know your own requirements best.

Lynn
3rd-May-2005, 10:46 AM
... or do you find the instructions on most modern devices almost incomprehensible? I rarely read them :whistle:

I'm a 'figure it out and only look at the instructions if I get stuck' sort of person. I do read instructions if I'm installing stuff on the PC, other than that I tend to use manuals for troubleshooting if I can't get the product to do what I want. (Have to admit to needing to refer to the first digitial camera manual a few times, as not familiar with what it should be able to do, never having used one before).

Your idea of the labels is good! Maybe we should have a useful tips and ideas thread for people to share.

Lory
3rd-May-2005, 10:50 AM
This has probably been posted somewhere else before but I couldn't be bothered to find it! :blush:

Some examples of why the human race has probably evolved as far as possible. These are actual instruction labels on consumer goods...

On Sears hairdryer:
Do not use while sleeping.
(Gee, that's the only time I have to work on my hair!)

On a bag of Fritos:
You could be a winner! No purchase necessary. Details inside.
(The shoplifter special!)

On a bar of Dial soap:
Directions: Use like regular soap.
(and that would be how?)

On some Swann frozen dinners:
Serving suggestion: Defrost.
(But it's 'just' a suggestion!)

On Tesco's Tiramisu dessert: (printed on bottom of the box)
Do not turn upside down.
(Too late! you lose!)

On Marks & Spencer Bread Pudding:
Product will be hot after heating.
(Are you sure? Let's experiment.)

On packaging for a Rowenta iron:
Do not iron clothes on body.
(But wouldn't that save more time?)(Whose body?)

On Boot's Children's cough medicine:
Do not drive car or operate machinery.
(We could do a lot to reduce the construction accidents if we just kept those 5 year olds off those fork lifts.)

On Nytol sleep aid:
Warning: may cause drowsiness.
(One would hope!)

On a Korean kitchen knife:
Warning: keep out of children.
(hmm...something must have gotten lost in the translation...)

On a string of Christmas lights:
For indoor or outdoor use only.
(As opposed to use in outer space.)

On a food processor:
Not to be used for the other use.
(Now I'm curious.)

On Sainsbury's peanuts:
Warning: contains nuts.
(but no peas?)

On an American Airlines packet of nuts:
Instructions: open packet, eat nuts.
(somebody got paid big bucks to write this one...)

On a Swedish chainsaw:
Do not attempt to stop chain with your hands.
(Raise your hand if you've tried this...)

On a child's Superman costume:
Wearing of this garment does not enable you to fly.
(Oh go ahead! That's right, destroy a universal childhood belief.)

cheeks
3rd-May-2005, 11:03 AM
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Chef
3rd-May-2005, 11:17 AM
Some years ago on a pre christmas shopping trip around Toys R Us it noticed the following warning on the back of a toy box.

"Contains small parts. Not to be used by children under the age of three years of age or under seven years of age if in the U.S."

Hmm. The land of the fry and the home of the back to front baseball cap. They are allowed to own guns there you know.

El Salsero Gringo
3rd-May-2005, 01:07 PM
Added to this, now most device instructions are written as cheaply as possible - look at any Ikea instructions sheet. Minimizes production and translation costs. Also, for a low-value high-volume product, the manufacturers figure that you get what you've paid for.I don't agree. Ikea instructions do not strike me as cheap or anything but extremely carefully thought-out. I have always found them to be clear, concise and easy to follow.

Their international audience does lead to some interesting anomalies though: IKEA was recently criticised by an equal-opportunities group in a scandinavian country (Denmark?) for showing a bias for having a male figure actively assembling (using tools and so forth) and a female figure "assisting" by holding the workpiece. One of the company's defences was that to show a man assisting a woman would cause offence in Arab countries!

Many of the other "hilarious" pieces of labeling are the result of possibly over-zealous application of over-detailed product labeling regulations put in place to protect us the consumer. Pay your money, and take your choice...

Sparkles
3rd-May-2005, 01:28 PM
Many of the other "hilarious" pieces of labeling are the result of possibly over-zealous application of over-detailed product labeling regulations put in place to protect us the consumer. Pay your money, and take your choice...
:yeah:
This is exactly the point I was going to make - plus I think many of the instructions and 'warning's are to protect the companies' backs - it's all part of the new sueing fad that seems to have swept the world and companies just can't afford not to state the obvious anymore. :rolleyes:

bigdjiver
3rd-May-2005, 02:23 PM
I went around a computer fair yesterday, and I could not even understand what some of the devices on sale actually did.

I usually write the instruction manual / help file before I start writing a program, and that approach would have benefited so many products that I have bought. Equipping the young designers with a pair of unspectacles would also help us old gits a lot.

Graham
3rd-May-2005, 02:31 PM
Yes, I remember hearing about a manufacturer of rubber boats who was successfully sued by someone who had injured themselves when their boat had been swept on to rocks. The basis of the claim was that the instructions had not warned the user that the boat may puncture if swept onto rocks.

Robin
3rd-May-2005, 02:52 PM
Methinks most manuals are written either by the techheads or the marketing team. Take your pick.

Its also highly annoying when said manuals cover lots of models in the range -including ones you can't even buy here! .. trying to wade through the features on your own model can be bad enough but when there's 10 models that each do the same thing differently :confused:


On the computer side though I must say that manuals do seem to have slimmed down a lot ... back in the heady early network days of computing Novell (the then be all and end all of pc networks) gave you a box with no less than 13 manuals! As opposed to the latest Microsoft Windows Small Business Server which manual comes on the equivalent of about one newspaper page!

Still not sure if I like all this electronic documentation though - seems an easy option for the manufacturers not to bother writing decent manuals.

David Bailey
3rd-May-2005, 03:02 PM
Still not sure if I like all this electronic documentation though - seems an easy option for the manufacturers not to bother writing decent manuals.
Well, the writing effort is proably no different, but they save shedloads on production, storage and distribution costs, especially for a high-volume, low-cost retail product. Of course, the effort you have to put in as a reader is greater, but they're not paying for that. :mad:

It's the equivalent of outsourcing call centres to a foreign country - the level of service and quality of information delivery is reduced, but the managers don't care, they're saving money. Of course, in the long-term, the company will lose any reputation for quality, but in the short-term, it's big bonuses all round...

bigdjiver
3rd-May-2005, 03:34 PM
There was a documentary about a guy who used to sell aircraft building kits. The manual had to be of the highest standard to meet regulations and avoid lawsuits. He said that the cost of creating and publishing the manual amounted to 30% of the price of the kit.

Robin
3rd-May-2005, 03:38 PM
It's the equivalent of outsourcing call centres to a foreign country - the level of service and quality of information delivery is reduced, but the managers don't care, they're saving money. Of course, in the long-term, the company will lose any reputation for quality, but in the short-term, it's big bonuses all round...

I have theory about this - On the basis of my own experience . I found that when I have to deal with a call centre where it has been "subbed" out overseas that I have to call at least 2 ,or more times as opposed to once or maybe twice to a UK based call centre.
Now on the basis that they moved the operations there to save costs and would be paying roughly 1/3 of their uk cost (does this seem a fair assessment?) there does not appear to be any savings on the basis that I have to call more times and the outsource agency would be charging accordingly.

I bet their stats show that they are handling 3 times more calls for the same cost .... wonder if any bigwig has bothered to ask for a comparison on number of calls per case ... ?

El Salsero Gringo
3rd-May-2005, 03:44 PM
Methinks most manuals are written either by the techheads or the marketing team. Take your pick.I think that's just a prejudice on your part Robin.
On the computer side though I must say that manuals do seem to have slimmed down a lot ... back in the heady early network days of computing Novell (the then be all and end all of pc networks) gave you a box with no less than 13 manuals! As opposed to the latest Microsoft Windows Small Business Server which manual comes on the equivalent of about one newspaper page!

Still not sure if I like all this electronic documentation though - seems an easy option for the manufacturers not to bother writing decent manuals.Times have changed since every person who bought a computer was a technical nut. The first computer in my family was a sinclair ZX80 that was sold to electronics enthusiasts - you could buy it in kit form and solder it together yourself. Then next was an Apple ][ which came with a full set of manuals - including the source code for the firmware and a circuit diagram of the motherboard.

These days most people don't want and wouldn't understand that level of complexity of information about their computers or the software they use on them. To produce paper manuals to accompany every product would just be immensely wasteful, of time, resources and energy - not least the energy involved in schlepping the weight of paper from the manufacturer to the end user. Electronic documentation is light, easily amended, searched, indexed and the luddites among us (me included) can always print out as much or as little as we need to cuddle up to as bed-time reading.

When you buy a car - you no longer get the technical details. You don't even get much of an instruction manual that tells you how to drive, although I dare say once upon a time you would have, along with the complete workshop manual to boot.

And please, don't make the mistake of assuming that just because reams and reams of paper isn't supplied with your favourite operating system that decent technical documentation isn't written as a matter of course. As a (former) Cisco specialist I must have had about 40,000 pages of extremely tightly written yet clearly explained documents on my shelves at one point.

Robin
3rd-May-2005, 06:43 PM
Sorry , methinks you misunderstood me. My point was that Novell with their 13 manuals had a very clearly documented and easily indexed system .... that is no longer the case . I rest my case if, for example, you look at the MS help on server provisioning for Hosted Exchange. Its a CD with 320mb of documentation only and its fairly poor . I'll burn you a copy and you can peruse it if you like - if you are feelin sad, that is.

It really overcomplicates things and therein lies my grudge. Its almost as is they are doing that specifically to sell courses on it !!!

Maybe thats the correct nail :D

El Salsero Gringo
3rd-May-2005, 07:00 PM
Sorry , methinks you misunderstood me.Oops, sorry about that.
My point was that Novell with their 13 manuals had a very clearly documented and easily indexed system .... that is no longer the case . I rest my case if, for example, you look at the MS help on server provisioning for Hosted Exchange. Its a CD with 320mb of documentation only and its fairly poor . I'll burn you a copy and you can peruse it if you like - if you are feelin sad, that is.

It really overcomplicates things and therein lies my grudge. Its almost as is they are doing that specifically to sell courses on it !!!OK, I'm not familiar with the example that you give, but that's an MS-specific complaint, not a "sign of the times" complaint. There's plenty of really good technical documentation out there right now for all sorts of products, just as, when Novell was king of networks, there was a lot of very poor documentation.

I agree that things have "slimmed down" but that's a good thing to me - if I want hard-backed perfect-bound manuals then I'm happy to pay extra for them (or for the O'Reilly books - documentation by any other name). Meanwhlie I detect no trend - upwards or downwards - in the quality of the content.

Robin
3rd-May-2005, 07:25 PM
I agree that things have "slimmed down" but that's a good thing to me - if I want hard-backed perfect-bound manuals then I'm happy to pay extra for them (or for the O'Reilly books - documentation by any other name). Meanwhlie I detect no trend - upwards or downwards - in the quality of the content.

Agreed . Proper manual= get an O'Reilly!

However it makes you wonder why the manufacturers can't do it!

bigdjiver
4th-May-2005, 01:21 AM
...However it makes you wonder why the manufacturers can't do it!To write a great manual the writer has to understand the product in depth, and the complete lack of knowledge, and sometimes common sense, of the users of the product. There is a distinct expertise in being able to cope with the range of users that will actually try to read the manual, which is why the task is being delegated more to technical authors and publishers who have the necessary expertise.

When I was a trainee programmer my boss said "We write programs and documentation to B.S.I. standards.". He then introduced me ty first task, writing a small program for the "British Standard Idiot", a guy called Wilf.

It was how I learned my first big lesson, "Do not try to tell them which button to press, do not give them a button.".

Lou
4th-May-2005, 07:27 AM
I bet their stats show that they are handling 3 times more calls for the same cost .... wonder if any bigwig has bothered to ask for a comparison on number of calls per case ... ?
Have some positive rep, Robin. For the plain & simple reason that I love case lifecycle analysis.

[Business Intelligence Nerd Mode] That measure's normally a standard key performance indicator. However, the level of importance that company management actually attach to that particular measure is up to them. [/Business Intelligence Nerd Mode]

I miss that stuff! If anyone knows someone who happens to want a BI analyst, specialising in Service Delivery, please introduce us! I could do with a new job! :D

Lory
4th-May-2005, 08:27 AM
Its also highly annoying when said manuals cover lots of models in the range -including ones you can't even buy here! .. trying to wade through the features on your own model can be bad enough but when there's 10 models that each do the same thing differently :confused:


:yeah:
My car stereo manual covers at least 10 models and it's written in about 10 different languages too. It's probably 250 pages thick, of which only about 15 relate to mine. The index alone is enough to confuse anyone, with many subdivisions and lot's of pages numbered the same! :confused:
Why can't I just have a 15 paged pamphlet, in plain English with pictures of MY stereo only? :angry:

David Bailey
4th-May-2005, 09:32 AM
Why can't I just have a 15 paged pamphlet, in plain English with pictures of MY stereo only? :angry:
Because it'd cost the manufacturers more money - they'd have to print, bind, store, manage and distribute 10 different books, rather than just one. Admin overhead would be higher, so printing one book saves on cost. And kills more trees, but that's what they're there for, right? :rolleyes:

If I were you I'd just feel grateful to still have a book to look at. In a few years time you'll have to rely on the on-screen manual for any assistance....

Graham
4th-May-2005, 10:31 AM
If I were you I'd just feel grateful to still have a book to look at. In a few years time you'll have to rely on the on-screen manual for any assistance....
For many applications this is perfectly okay. However, I do draw the line at connectivity software which has a web-based help system. As in, "IF I COULD SEE THE ****ING WEB I WOULDN'T NEED ****ING HELP!!!!!" :angry: :angry:

DavidY
12th-May-2005, 11:04 PM
... or do you find the instructions on most modern devices almost incomprehensible?~SNIP~portable MP3 playerI have recently bought a cheap MP3 player. I think the instructions are in another language. :confused:

For instance:
If not operating it according to this user manual, maybe you would receive unfavourable affection, gadget can not operate correctly.

Please don't clean the product with sour or other chemistry liquid clean airframe.

Do not strongly impact and oscillation.

please don't use earphone chronically, regulate proper general volume, it would protect your hearing.

(And I've only read as far as page 2 of the instructions so far...)

David Bailey
13th-May-2005, 08:43 AM
I have recently bought a cheap MP3 player. I think the instructions are in another language. :confused:

For instance:
If not operating it according to this user manual, maybe you would receive unfavourable affection, gadget can not operate correctly.

Please don't clean the product with sour or other chemistry liquid clean airframe.

Do not strongly impact and oscillation.

please don't use earphone chronically, regulate proper general volume, it would protect your hearing.

(And I've only read as far as page 2 of the instructions so far...)
Boy, I'm going to bookmark this post, it's a great example of how cost-cutting in production of documentation affects users at the sharp end, and I can't think of a better illustration of the evils of mechanical translation.

Can you let me know (or post) the make of the MP3 player?

DavidY
13th-May-2005, 01:21 PM
Boy, I'm going to bookmark this post, it's a great example of how cost-cutting in production of documentation affects users at the sharp end, and I can't think of a better illustration of the evils of mechanical translation.

Can you let me know (or post) the make of the MP3 player?It's made by a company called Safecom.

It's a really cheap player, but has the advantage that it plays MP2 (as opposed to MP3) files. Most of the more expensive ones don't claim to play MP2s and I specifically wanted a player that would play them.

Word version of the manual (which resembles the printed one) is here (http://www.safecom.cn/code/product/Manuals/MP3/SMFDD-512.zip)

Lynn
13th-May-2005, 01:50 PM
I have recently bought a cheap MP3 player. I think the instructions are in another language. :confused:

For instance:
If not operating it according to this user manual, maybe you would receive unfavourable affection, gadget can not operate correctly.

Please don't clean the product with sour or other chemistry liquid clean airframe.

Do not strongly impact and oscillation.

please don't use earphone chronically, regulate proper general volume, it would protect your hearing.

(And I've only read as far as page 2 of the instructions so far...) :rofl:
Sorry I know its not much help in operating your product, but that is funny!

drathzel
13th-May-2005, 02:59 PM
I rarely read them :whistle:

I'm a 'figure it out and only look at the instructions if I get stuck' sort of person. I do read instructions if I'm installing stuff on the PC, other than that I tend to use manuals for troubleshooting if I can't get the product to do what I want.

me too lynn, and they say its a man thing!!!! pah :D

David Bailey
13th-May-2005, 03:06 PM
me too lynn, and they say its a man thing!!!! pah :D
Nope, I can authoritatively state it's not a man thing, it's not a woman thing, it's a human thing. That's just the way we work.

Barry Shnikov
17th-May-2005, 11:26 AM
Because it'd cost the manufacturers more money - they'd have to print, bind, store, manage and distribute 10 different books, rather than just one. Admin overhead would be higher, so printing one book saves on cost. And kills more trees, but that's what they're there for, right? :rolleyes:

If I were you I'd just feel grateful to still have a book to look at. In a few years time you'll have to rely on the on-screen manual for any assistance....

Are you sure it isn't just a question of the manufacturer having to face up to the fact that the French manuals will end up in the Norwegian cars (e.g.) with a probability of 99%? :grin:

Barry Shnikov
17th-May-2005, 11:30 AM
I have recently bought a cheap MP3 player. I think the instructions are in another language. :confused:

For instance:
If not operating it according to this user manual, maybe you would receive unfavourable affection, gadget can not operate correctly.

Please don't clean the product with sour or other chemistry liquid clean airframe.

Do not strongly impact and oscillation.

please don't use earphone chronically, regulate proper general volume, it would protect your hearing.

(And I've only read as far as page 2 of the instructions so far...)

Ummm...which bit are you having trouble with? The airframe?

Barry Shnikov
17th-May-2005, 11:34 AM
I once assembled a roll-top desk made in Denmark. My ex-wife wanted to read the instructions through first, and so we did. We were intrigued by references to 'Domes of silence' in the text, but couldn't really work out what they were.

We put the whole thing together, and when we came to the bit where the domes of silence were required, they turned out to be the small, sticky, hemispherical plastic stoppers to prevent the cupboard doors and the roll-top from slamming when they were closed.

"Domes of silence", innit?

DavidY
2nd-April-2006, 09:57 PM
Some examples of why the human race has probably evolved as far as possible. These are actual instruction labels on consumer goods...I bought a bottle of mineral water at dance venue last night. Reading the label, I was reassured to learn that not only was it "suitable for vegetarians" but it was also "gluten free".

No word on whether it may contain nuts...:whistle:

El Salsero Gringo
3rd-April-2006, 10:43 AM
I bought a bottle of mineral water at dance venue last night. Reading the label, I was reassured to learn that not only was it "suitable for vegetarians" but it was also "gluten free".

No word on whether it may contain nuts...:whistle:I've just checked my jar of peanut butter, and it doesn't warn me that it may contain nuts.

I feel cheated, so I'm going to ask for a refund.

SECRETSPY
3rd-April-2006, 10:12 PM
My mate bought his mother a digital box for her tv, wired it all in etc and handed her the other remote. It only took about 2 hours for him to set it all up, but because the picture flickered occaisionally, she said

ooh I can't do with all these remotes and I definately can not do with all that flickering on the telly, change it all back so I have my original 5 channels please

so much for modern technology:grin:

thewacko
3rd-April-2006, 10:23 PM
My mate bought his mother a digital box for her tv, wired it all in etc and handed her the other remote. It only took about 2 hours for him to set it all up, but because the picture flickered occaisionally, she said


so much for modern technology:grin:
all oh so true

Chef
4th-April-2006, 12:34 AM
At work (chemical research) whenever a chemical is purchased froma supplier then the vendor has to send us a Materials Safety Data Sheet which details all the hazards of the material and the medical action that needs to me taken if humans are exposed to it, and how to dispose of it safely in the event of spillage.

A few weeks back a material arrived with a 12 PAGE (yes that is TWLEVE A4 PAGES) of safety data sheet.

It had useful info like

Flamability - LOW

Warning do not inhale! If material is inhaled seek medical attention at once.

If it enters your eye - seek medical attention at once,

Spillage. Wear respirator and use brushes to get it into platic bags. Dispose by incineration.



So what was this material?

A - SAND! (I kid you not)

Makes me very wary about going to Camber Sands for a dance weekend again.

Gojive
4th-April-2006, 09:04 AM
At work (chemical research) whenever a chemical is purchased froma supplier then the vendor has to send us a Materials Safety Data Sheet which details all the hazards of the material and the medical action that needs to me taken if humans are exposed to it, and how to dispose of it safely in the event of spillage.

A few weeks back a material arrived with a 12 PAGE (yes that is TWLEVE A4 PAGES) of safety data sheet.

It had useful info like

Flamability - LOW

Warning do not inhale! If material is inhaled seek medical attention at once.

If it enters your eye - seek medical attention at once,

Spillage. Wear respirator and use brushes to get it into platic bags. Dispose by incineration.



So what was this material?

A - SAND! (I kid you not)

Makes me very wary about going to Camber Sands for a dance weekend again.

LOL! :D

They should have similar warnings on the chalets there:

Flamability - LOW to HIGH, depending on previous guests

Warning do not inhale! Only inhale outside the chalet. If chalet air is inhaled, seek off site medical attention within 3 mins! (useful information: the nearest medical facility is Rye)

If entered - it's an eyesore

Spillage. - More than likely

:eek: :D

Rhythm King
4th-April-2006, 10:34 AM
You've probably seen it before, but for those that haven't:

Freya
4th-April-2006, 04:15 PM
Talking about a suing nation...Is it just me or whats more important?

Barry Shnikov
4th-April-2006, 10:46 PM
Methinks most manuals are written either by the techheads or the marketing team. Take your pick.

Speaking for everyone working in the canteen, Thank f~ck for that. We have enough to do to feed 150 people each day.:rolleyes:

Barry Shnikov
4th-April-2006, 10:47 PM
Then next was an Apple ][ which came with a full set of manuals - including the source code for the firmware and a circuit diagram of the motherboard.

What were you, like 3 years old?

Barry Shnikov
4th-April-2006, 10:50 PM
:yeah:
My car stereo manual covers at least 10 models and it's written in about 10 different languages too. It's probably 250 pages thick, of which only about 15 relate to mine. The index alone is enough to confuse anyone, with many subdivisions and lot's of pages numbered the same! :confused:
Why can't I just have a 15 paged pamphlet, in plain English with pictures of MY stereo only? :angry:

Good grief woman! You realise you are asking for nothing less than customer service!!

If they are going to change the name of Marathon bars and Oil of Ulay to Snickers and Oil of Olay simply to save money on having the wrappers printed, what chance have you got?

Barry Shnikov
4th-April-2006, 10:52 PM
Are you sure it isn't just a question of the manufacturer having to face up to the fact that the French manuals will end up in the Norwegian cars (e.g.) with a probability of 99%? :grin:

Yeah, my mate lived in France and he had two cars stolen in 4 years. Though he thinks they ended up in Italy rather than Norway.