PDA

View Full Version : Tips and Tricks



DavidB
27th-November-2002, 12:30 PM
Over the years I've heard about a lot of different exercises to improve particular things in my dancing. I've forgotten most of them - these are the few I can remember. Leading whilst holding a cup of water in your hand - to stop it bouncing up and down
Leading/following using a £5 note for the connection - so you don't get too strong or weak in the lead
Leading/following using a rubber band for the connection - so you don't get too jerky in the lead
Followers closing their eyes - helps stop the lady anticipating, and makes the man realise what he has to lead
Air leading - Leading without touching. (Can also do it without the arms as well.) Teaches you how much your body can be used to lead. Don't try it at the same time as the previous exercise!
Keeping your feet together, and moving your body in a first move. You can get some wierd body positions to play with - good for 'funkier' music.
Doing moves in reverse - gives you twice as many moves without learning anything new.
My favourite is "following your own lead". A strange idea - trying to get the man to move his body as a reaction to his own lead, and the connection with the lady. The aim is to get the man to make his leads smaller and smoother, but still definite enough to be followable.
Like all tips - they may work for you, or they may not. Anyone got any others???

David

TheTramp
27th-November-2002, 12:37 PM
I think that when you've reached a competant level doing either the lead or follow thing, it's useful (and fun?!?) to try the other role. I think that it helps to have an appreciation of what it's like from the 'other' side.

I'm always on the look-out for people to lead while I follow these days.

Steve

Lou
27th-November-2002, 01:05 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
Followers closing their eyes - helps stop the lady anticipating, and makes the man realise what he has to lead
Air leading - Leading without touching. (Can also do it without the arms as well.) Teaches you how much your body can be used to lead. Don't try it at the same time as the previous exercise!

Unless you're a Jedi.

TheTramp
27th-November-2002, 01:07 PM
Use the force Lou-k

Steve

Franck
27th-November-2002, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
Over the years I've heard about a lot of different exercises to improve particular things in my dancing. I've forgotten most of them - these are the few I can rememberBrilliant tips there David! :nice:
I use quite a few of these in workshops, and they do make a difference!
My favourite is the 'air dancing' one. Not only does is make the man think more about his leading and forcing him to be clearer without using physical strength, but it also helps the women to relax and to use their own balance / momentum instead of relying on the man to pull / push them in place. Great for lady beginners who need to relax their arm!

Dancing blind is also very useful, most men, when they start, have no idea how much they have to communicate to their partner when leading.
I like to describe it as not so much moving your partner where you want her to be, but closing all other options, leaving a very clear path for her to follow.

I was discussing new workshop ideas with Lisa and Lorna yesterday in Aberdeen (great music by the way Curtain :wink: ), and while there are a lot of tips / tricks to improve leading, there are very few to improve musical interpretation and improvisation!
I was thinking it would be interesting to dance the same track over and over, concentrating on different instruments in the track: ie follow the main drum beat first, then the bass line, then the actual melody / words, etc...

Would be interested in more thoughts / suggestions.

Franck.

Graham
27th-November-2002, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
My favourite is "following your own lead". A strange idea - trying to get the man to move his body as a reaction to his own lead, and the connection with the lady. The aim is to get the man to make his leads smaller and smoother, but still definite enough to be followable.
I don't quite follow ( :wink: ) this David - can you explain a bit further?

Gadget
27th-November-2002, 01:12 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
My favourite is "following your own lead". A strange idea - trying to get the man to move his body as a reaction to his own lead, and the connection with the lady. The aim is to get the man to make his leads smaller and smoother, but still definite enough to be followable.
I don't get this one - Isn't that called 'Dancing' ?. {or am I missing something ?}
~Edit~
Snap!!

DavidB
27th-November-2002, 02:40 PM
Originally posted by Graham
I don't quite follow this - can you explain a bit further? You would pick the hardest to explain! It was shown to me by an American dancer called Angel Figueroa - he is one of the best West Coast Swing, Hustle and Salsa dancers in the world.

I used to have a big problem when dancing Hustle that my lead was too big and harsh, and it made it very uncomfortable for Lily to follow. He explained that the lady's main responsibility when following is to 'follow' her hand. Wherever her hand is led, her body should follow. The problem is that you can move your hand far faster than the lady can move her body, and she struggles to catch up. You lose the connection, it feels bad, and it looks bad.

So he suggested the idea of 'following your own lead'. Any time you lead anything, you have to move your own body in response to the lead. If you are leading a first move, you start by leading the lady back. You step back yourself not because that's what you normally do, but as a reaction to your own lead. Same with the twists - you apply pressure in your hands to twist the lady, and you use the same pressure to twist yourself. (If you are dancing with a lady who has particularly good connection, like virtually all the ladies I danced with in Glasgow, then you should be able to feel a 'lead', because she will match the pressure you give her.)

If you lead too fast, you can't react quickly enough, so you have to slow your lead down. If you lead too big, then you can't move enough, so you make things smaller. But the key thing is you feel it yourself, and can react to it. You are not relying on the lady saying you are doing something wrong.

If you are leading something at a speed and size that your own body can follow, you give the lady far more chance to do the move as well. Then she can concentrate on enjoyment, rather than survival.

Hope I've explained it ok. It took me 6 months to understand what he meant in the first place.

David

Franck
27th-November-2002, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
The problem is that you can move your hand far faster than the lady can move her body, and she struggles to catch up. You lose the connection, it feels bad, and it looks bad. Great explanation, and I will have to try that tonight in Glasgow (any willing volunteers? :D )

I became really aware of this at the last Ceroc teachers update (where we learnt the latest moves to be added to the Ceroc list). When learning the moves, we first learn as leader, and then swap roles to become followers.
I was very conscious that some leaders were just rushing their hand lead, not allowing my body to complete its momentum in one direction prior to abruptly changing the direction of travel (I realise it is possible to change direction quite quickly, but usually with extra help, from a spare hand etc...).
It seems to me the exercize you mention would be a big help for many of us out there.
Once again, it comes down to being aware of your partner, where she is, how fast she is travelling and in which direction...

Yet another great thread! :cheers:

Franck.

Rachel
27th-November-2002, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by Franck
I was thinking it would be interesting to dance the same track over and over, concentrating on different instruments in the track: ie follow the main drum beat first, then the bass line, then the actual melody / words, etc... Brilliant - I love that idea!!! Can I steal it, please, to tell Marc for his teaching?

Franck
27th-November-2002, 03:59 PM
Originally posted by Rachel
Can I steal it, please, to tell Marc for his teaching? Of course, that's what the Forum is for, sharing ideas, and hopefully, with all the great dancers who contribute here regularly, we can develop new ideas!

Great to see you back again, you had disappeared for a while! Coming back to Scotland soon?

Franck.

Gadget
27th-November-2002, 04:03 PM
......let me see if I am understanding this right: Every time you push your partner's hand, you should move backwards and every time you pull, you should move forward - trying to keep equal pressure in the lead?
I take it that you try to keep your "center" and pivot if the lead is to the side, and advance/retreat if the lead is more central?
So in the 'first move' example, the "open out" would result in almost going back to back with your partner?

:confused:

{BTW Rachel, which thread did you pick up that quote of Francks ?}

DavidB
27th-November-2002, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
Every time you push your partner's hand, you should move backwards and every time you pull, you should move forwardFor the purposes of this exercise - yes. Remember this is an exercise designed to improve a particular area of a man's dancing - namely wild leading. Some people might include it in their own style when they dance freestyle, but the aim is to develop a feeling that you try to recreate no matter how you dance.


trying to keep equal pressure in the lead? Not quite - the pressure constantly changes, but the lady should match whatever pressure the man gives. Ever noticed that when you dance with a good lady, you always know where she is and what she is doing. It's because she maintains the connection, even when you are not leading anything.


I take it that you try to keep your "center" and pivot if the lead is to the side, and advance/retreat if the lead is more central?That is what the ladies do when they follow.


So in the 'first move' example, the "open out" would result in almost going back to back with your partner?Sort of. A lot depends on the relative size. With a big man leading a small lady, the energy in the lead would not result in the man moving as much as the lady.

The whole idea is to realise how long it takes a body to actually move, and how large that movement is, whilst still being comfortable.

(The first move is interesting. As I understand it, the 'official' Ceroc way in the twist is that the man and the lady both twist away from each other. I do the opposite - I twist in the same direction as the lady. This is a completely different type of lead - I start it my moving my body, and keeping my frame. You don't get many of these 'body leads' in Ceroc. I prefer the look of it, and hopefully the lady shouldn't feel any difference.)

David

Rachel
27th-November-2002, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by Franck
Of course, that's what the Forum is for, sharing ideas, and hopefully, with all the great dancers who contribute here regularly, we can develop new ideas! Thank you - that's very generous of you! I only wish I could think of some wonderful tips to contribute to this thread myself, but I'm afraid my head is blank ... (nothing new there, then!)


... that's what the Forum is for So you mean there's a practical reason to all this forum lark, as well as it being just a hugely entertaining waste of time??


Great to see you back again, you had disappeared for a while! Coming back to Scotland soon? Ah, thanks, that made me smile - it's nice to be back. Had a couple of days with a broken down car which meant working from home (and you wouldn't believe how much more I can get done there with no internet access!).

And, after that, I was actually here in the office - even looking at the forum. But I've decided to come back in a slightly more reduced way than before - I really do need to start cutting back on my forum addiction and, occasionally, even try doing some work for a living.

As for coming back to Scotland - believe me, I would absolutely love to and I'm working on it very hard!!!
Rachel

Rachel
27th-November-2002, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by Gadget
{BTW Rachel, which thread did you pick up that quote of Francks ?} Um, it's here, isn't it? Franck's first reply to this thread ...
R.

Gadget
27th-November-2002, 05:38 PM
{Doh! missed this one; thanks Rachel :sorry}

Originally posted by Franck
My favourite is the 'air dancing' one. ~snip~ Great for lady beginners who need to relax their arm!
But unfortunatly, no good for men like me who need to develop a stronger lead - any excercises recommended for this particular ailment?


I was discussing new workshop ideas with Lisa and Lorna~snip~
Like the idea, interesting to work out how you could teach people to listen for/anticipate breaks and changes in the music.
For dancing to the beat, base, melody, lyrics, ... it would be nice if you could get a multi-track and fade out all but the bit you don't want, then fade them in again - don't know how much of that is poss - ask the DJ's.


Would be interested in more thoughts / suggestions.
Regarding types of workshops:
Style taster - one move, done in several different styles; standard, blues, hip-hop, latin, disco...

Fancy Footwork - show how to add style to the most basic moves with sweeps, kicks, pointing...

Flair - what can be done with the off-hand

Knots - how to get into/out of lots of double handed, twisty, pretzel things

Choreography - how to put together a routine, or semi-routine.

Telepathy - dancing to the same beat/area of the song as your partner is (poss one wearing walkman, and other trying to dance to it?)

Dancing breaks - what to do with a break in the music or given one by your partner; shimmy, wiggle, spin, stalk, stroke...

Entrance - how to get from the side of the floor to a space and start dancing without pausing for a circle

...
that's all for now - I don't know if any/all of the above are already workshops though.

Graham
28th-November-2002, 10:25 AM
Originally posted by Gadget
But unfortunatly, no good for men like me who need to develop a stronger lead - any excercises recommended for this particular ailment?Have you tried the exercise with the follower closing her eyes? As she can't see what you're doing she needs to get everything through the connection, so it should highlight where you're not being positive enough. From my personal experience I find dancing with beginners is really good for this too, as they're always trying to "escape", and this helps to highlight where you're being too weak.

TheTramp
28th-November-2002, 10:30 AM
Have you tried the exercise with the follower closing her eyes?
I think all my dance partners do this....

I mean, consider the alternative!! (they'd have to look at me!)

Steve

Gadget
28th-November-2002, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by Graham
Have you tried the exercise with the follower closing her eyes? As she can't see what you're doing she needs to get everything through the connection, so it should highlight where you're not being positive enough.
"Close your eyes, trust me, you should feel every movement - just go where my hands guide you..." sounds like one of Gus's lines! :what: :D:D
I need to find a suitable vict.. volunteer.


From my personal experience I find dancing with beginners is really good for this too, as they're always trying to "escape", and this helps to highlight where you're being too weak.
I always try to dance with beginners - and most of the time I have excellent dances: They have less preconceptions about what a move should be and are more inclined to go where you lead them instead of where they think you are trying to lead them.
My theory is that if I can't lead a move smoothly with a beginner, then it's not really worth adding to my repertoire. The only exception is with a few leans and seducers, but they can be led into these with an alternative ending - less likely to scare them away.:what:

Gus
28th-November-2002, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by Graham
Have you tried the exercise with the follower closing her eyes? As she can't see what you're doing she needs to get everything through the connection, so it should highlight where you're not being positive enough.

I KNOW its always the man's fault but after dancing the other night they should make blindfolds compulsory (NO ... not for that reason ... though it does give me an idea or two ...:rolleyes: ) ... what I mean is it might stop ladies from LEADING.

Sorry ... but I'd like to come back one night without my shoulder aching and all my fingers still attached!:sad:

Lou
28th-November-2002, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by Gus
though it does give me an idea or two ...:rolleyes: ) ... what I mean is it might stop ladies from LEADING.

We only lead when we have to, Gus :devil: :na:

TheTramp
28th-November-2002, 01:43 PM
Unfortunately, in general, that isn't true.... :( And when I'm teaching, I make a point of telling the ladies NOT to lead. Since, if you do, the guy will get used to it, and will not learn to do it himself.

Let him do it all wrong, and follow that. And THEN tell him how crap he is....

Steve

Gus
28th-November-2002, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by Lou

We only lead when we have to, Gus :devil: :na:

And of course as the lady is ALWAYS right (especialy whan she is wrong) I must concede the point ... mea culpa:sad:

DavidB
28th-November-2002, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by Gus
what I mean is it might stop ladies from LEADINGCatch-22. If more men led properly, the ladies wouldn't have to...

Ceroc don't really teach leading in any detail. Most classes never mention anything about leading. (I'm talking about proper leading, not signals). It might get taught in workshops, but how many people go to the workshops. I would guess that most men dance without ever having being told how to lead.

If the men don't lead, what are the ladies supposed to do. In a class they do the routine, dragging the men through if they have to. In freestyle they dance the same way as they do in the class. I can't argue with any of that. I'm not going to start telling ladies not to go to the classes, or to ignore what is being taught.

But if you start teaching how to lead in normal classes, then you go against one of the principles of Ceroc - keeping dancing simple.

Personally I would take 5 minutes at the start of the intermediate class, and do something other than a move. It could be one of the exercises suggested, or a styling point, or something that is going to be shown in more detail in a future workshop. Once you start teaching something, then you can comment on people not doing it.

David

Franck
28th-November-2002, 02:37 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
Ceroc don't really teach leading in any detail. Most classes never mention anything about leading.
~SNIP~
But if you start teaching how to lead in normal classes, then you go against one of the principles of Ceroc - keeping dancing simple.I disagree David, at most (all?) classes I have seen, leading is mentioned, taught and regularly explained. Probably not at the level of detail you imply, and not using any of the tips above which are ideal for a workshop situation.

Each move (Beginners moves in particular), is taught from the man's perspective, the 'lead action' is described, as in lower your hand / push towards, pull down and raise, etc... This might not be advanced leading (as you described when talking about leverage etc...), but for the purpose of a Beginners' class and, as you mention, to keep it simple, it is sufficient.
Most Beginners (men) don't lead because they lack the confidence to do so. They are not yet sure that they are doing the move right, and therefore don't feel comfortable inflicting any lead on their partner.
This situation is not helped by ladies who do lead, thereby allowing men to get away with little or no lead, or worse, re-inforcing their self-doubt!

Franck.

Gus
28th-November-2002, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by Franck
I disagree David, at most (all?) classes I have seen, leading is mentioned, taught and regularly explained. Probably not at the level of detail you imply, and not using any of the tips above which are ideal for a workshop situation.
Franck.

Maybe ... but I think all Ceroc instructors should be forced to dance with all the lasses in their clubs to find the ones who insisit on clinging on for dear life and trying to lead. The worst case is alwys the double pretzel where I've lost count of the number of ladies who try to pull out at the end of the first phase ... that can REALLY hurt the guys elbow.

Actualy ... to put things in perspective ... its not just Ceroc clubs, the local Blitz clubs are even worse but it was a bit of a shock to go back to my old club after a few months and get mauled:sad:

In response to what Dave has said .. maybe its a point that should be hammered home every month or so ... along with guys not trying to drag and throw the ladies around by using forcefull leads ... two sides of the same coin?

Franck
28th-November-2002, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by Gus
Maybe ... but I think all Ceroc instructors should be forced to dance with all the lasses in their clubs to find the ones who insisit on clinging on for dear life and trying to lead. You mean they don't????
I am genuinely surprised there :really: I can't say I always manage to dance with every single Beginner every night, but I do try, and will get them all over a few weeks anyway! All the classes I have been to, the same applied.

Originally posted by Gus
The worst case is alwys the double pretzel where I've lost count of the number of ladies who try to pull out at the end of the first phase ... that can REALLY hurt the guys elbow.Well this one is notoriously difficult to lead safely, especially if the women anticipate (which I think is a different problem to leading).
My view is that Beginner women tend to lead, ie push / pull themselves into what they think is the move, whereas more 'experienced' women don't lead, but anticipate and move ahead of the lead (assuming there was going to be one), thus either seriously limiting the potential of the dance, or sometimes causing pain :sick:

Originally posted by Gus
In response to what Dave has said .. maybe its a point that should be hammered home every month or so ... along with guys not trying to drag and throw the ladies around by using forcefull leads ... two sides of the same coin? My view is that point is hammered just about every week, and at every class, though there might be local variations?

Franck.

Gus
28th-November-2002, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by Franck
You mean they don't????
I am genuinely surprised there :really: I can't say I always manage to dance with every single Beginner every night, but I do try, and will get them all over a few weeks anyway! All the classes I have been to, the same applied.
My view is that point is hammered just about every week, and at every class, though there might be local variations?

Franck.

Franck .. sorry to say that despite all the great coaching we got as CTA teachers I would say that at the majority of events I go to, the Teachers DO NOT dance with beginners. For all the high principles that I hear from Ceroc HQ, I've seen few venues where the theory is put into practice

Thats is why I made my comments. If teachers spent more of their time dancing with all the punters, like an adiditonal taxi dancer, then a lot of the bad habits would soon dissapear. I've noticed this to be even more the case with the newer teachers.

Before I get lynched can I stress that from what I've seen at the Scotish venues (Aberdeen, Dundee, Edinburgh) none of the above applies ... that why I like coming back as often as I can! :grin:

Lou
28th-November-2002, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
If the men don't lead, what are the ladies supposed to do. In a class they do the routine, dragging the men through if they have to. In freestyle they dance the same way as they do in the class. I can't argue with any of that. I'm not going to start telling ladies not to go to the classes, or to ignore what is being taught.

Guilty as charged, M'Lord.

I've never known really what I should do in a class situation when there's a poor lead. I, and most other ladies, just proceed to where we're meant to be, regardless of a lack of lead. I'm quite self-conscious in a class situation, anyway, and I'd hate to be seen by a teacher doing a move/routine wrong, when it's not my fault & I'd been led badly. :eek:

TheTramp
28th-November-2002, 03:37 PM
I can back up Gus on this one. I taxied for over 2 years in Central London - for most of the teachers there. In that time, I hardly ever saw a teacher dance with a beginner - unless the beginner went up and asked (which of course, doesn't happen very often!!). In fact, a number of the teachers hardly ever dance at all. And one in particular had left the venue within 10 minutes of the class finishing.

This is of course about 10 months out of date. But I'd be surprised if anything has changed.

Steve

Franck
28th-November-2002, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by Gus
Franck .. sorry to say that despite all the great coaching we got as CTA teachers I would say that at the majority of events I go to, the Teachers DO NOT dance with beginners. I find this very sad :sad:
Both as a teacher (who really enjoys dancing with Beginners), and as a Franchisee. Dancing with new members / Beginners is one of the best way to help a night develop successfully. Not just in attendance figures, but also in creating a friendly welcoming attitude...
Teachers should lead by example, and I am proud to say that in Scotland we all do (most of the time that is, as we all have off nights :nice).

Franck.

DavidB
28th-November-2002, 03:56 PM
Originally posted by Franck
Each move (Beginners moves in particular), is taught from the man's perspective, the 'lead action' is described, as in lower your hand / push towards, pull down and raise, etc...Sorry Franck - I disagree. All I ever hear is "Semicircle with the hand and step back. Step in. Twist out. Twist Back. Turn the girl out. And Return her back." The only thing close to a lead is the "semicircle", and even that is not explained as a lead.

I think for beginners that it is ok not to teach much about leading. Even though you would end up with better dancers in the long run, you would almost certainly put the majority of them off. Most men have enough problems with dancing already to cope with any extra information.

Intermediate dancers should be able to cope with learning how to lead and follow. After all they seem to have no problem learning complicated moves, or signals, or drops, or even aerials... It doesn't have to be anything complicated. At it's simplest, leading is just guiding the lady's hand where you want her to go, and the lady just follows the hand wherever it is led.

I was trying to think of moves where a lead is mentionned. Occasionally I've heard in a class that the lead for a turn is raising your hand. (Question - is it?) And spins almost always get taught with a lead, even if it is usually a "big" "strong" "push" with the hand. (I wouldn't even do a big strong push with my hand when dancing with Steve!)

A lot depends on the teachers. Viktor suggested lots of things about leading in the last class I saw. I think at the party you talked about 'keeping a frame' in the dip. Scot talked about using the hand to twist the lady in the class he taught at Hammersmith. Unfortunately most teachers seem to be reluctant to explain every move. Leading and following is 'cause and effect'. Ceroc are very good at teaching the 'effect'. The cause seems to get forgotten about.

If experienced dancers keep commenting on the low standard of leading & following, then something needs to be done about it.

RE Teachers dancing with people in the class. Roger Chin & Nigel (of Nigel & Nina) should get a special mention - they are never off the floor.

David

Franck
28th-November-2002, 04:12 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
Sorry Franck - I disagree. All I ever hear is "Semicircle with the hand and step back. Step in. Twist out. Twist Back. Turn the girl out. And Return her back." The only thing close to a lead is the "semicircle", and even that is not explained as a lead.

~snip~

A lot depends on the teachers.I reckon this sums it up in the end. Though having spent the last 3 months helping Lisa (Aberdeen) prepare for her Beginners and Intermediate Teacher training course, I would like to point out that the lead is definitely included in the instructions that each new teacher has to learn word for word. The examples I gave above were all direct quotes taken from the Beginners moves teaching 'script'.
In particular, female teachers, spend more time teaching as a man so they can understand the feel of leading!

Personally, during a class I feel it is easier to teach a man to lead, than to teach a woman to stop leading... Unfortunately, because men rarely experience what a leading action should feel like (refer to thread on men dancing together), their understanding of leading can be severely skewed, either too strong (hurting their partner) or too weak / unclear, leaving their partner wondering what to do, and effectively taking over!
I am very aware that when I tell the men to push down towards the ladies' hip, or to give a short tug to get their partner travelling (in the manspin for example), different men will react to the same instruction in completely different ways :sad:
In the end, nothing can replace a workshop where you can actually correct each individual there and then, and indeed use some of the tips you shared at the beginning of this thread.

Raising the hand to lead (indicate?) a turn is a lead in my view, though you can add to the lead by flicking your fingers if you want a faster turn or an extra turn. Unfortunately, if you ask Beginners to 'lead' a turn, they tend to overdo it, and end up 'stirring porridge'...

Franck.

DavidB
28th-November-2002, 05:24 PM
Originally posted by Franck
Raising the hand to lead (indicate?) a turn is a lead in my view, though you can add to the lead by flicking your fingers if you want a faster turn or an extra turn. Unfortunately, if you ask Beginners to 'lead' a turn, they tend to overdo it, and end up 'stirring porridge'... I know some teachers who say that raising the hand is only a lead for the lady to raise her own hand. A turn is lead either by raising the hand and turning the lady with the other hand (eg first move), or by using a circular motion with the raised hand (eg yoyo). If you just raise your hand, then she can turn either way, fast or slow, or just stand there and improvise. However virtually every lady will turn...

David

Gadget
28th-November-2002, 08:31 PM
{Excelent thread BTW}

Originally posted by Franck
~snip~I would like to point out that the lead is definitely included in the instructions
I am aware that Lorna does give good instructions and tips on leading a move properly- eg. on Tues for the catapult, the "Pull forward and down, then raise to turn the lady..." was supplemented by telling us that the hand should brush the thigh before coming back up again.
If this isn't what DavidB was referring to by teaching a lead, then what else could be said from the stage that people would understand and not get board with ?


Raising the hand to lead (indicate?) a turn is a lead in my view
I don't know where I picked it up, but I always tend to draw a small halo above the lady's head with my fingers/hand (not arm), but I think that the movement up to that point is important as well; I think I sort of aim for the relevant shoulder, then take the hand above the head - very seldom do I get ladies turning the wrong way. I do however find a problem with stopping them turning; with some ladies, all you need to do is lift your arm and they are in a turn.

With teachers dancing in classes, I know that Lisa is only off of the floor when she is on stage. Linda is on the floor a lot as well - but I think that most beginners (and some of the rest of us :sorry) are a little bit intimidated by dancing with them.

TheTramp
29th-November-2002, 01:34 AM
I know what you mean Gadget, Lisa intimidates me too.

(I can safely say this, since she's down in London, and won't be back until Monday!!). :D

Steve

DavidB
29th-November-2002, 02:53 AM
Originally posted by Gadget
eg. on Tues for the catapult, the "Pull forward and down, then raise to turn the lady..." was supplemented by telling us that the hand should brush the thigh before coming back up again.
If this isn't what DavidB was referring to by teaching a lead, then what else could be said from the stage that people would understand and not get board with ?That is exactly what I'm talking about. Unfortunately too many teachers skip over it - I think they get bored teaching it, not the class getting bored hearing it again.

Rachel
29th-November-2002, 11:58 AM
Originally posted by Gus
Franck .. sorry to say that despite all the great coaching we got as CTA teachers I would say that at the majority of events I go to, the Teachers DO NOT dance with beginners.

Franck - Sorry, I know this is going back to several postings ago but, from what I've seen, I agree that most Ceroc teachers don't dance with newcomers and beginners. And I think it's really sad, too.

I've danced at an awful lot of venues all round the country and, even when I was a very obvious beginner, have virtually never been asked to dance with the teacher.

The only exception I can think of, was a fantastic Ceroc teacher at, I think, Cheltenham, but I can't for the life of me remember his name. (And more recently, now I've been to their venues, I've had dances with Nigel Anderson and Roger Chin - although they're non-Ceroc.)

Marc doesn't count as a teacher who dances with me, obviously - though at his venue he always spends the entire night dancing first and foremost with new people.

But I also think the demonstrators should do the same on their on-duty nights.

Anyway, that's one of the reasons I was so shocked - and racked with nerves - when you asked me to dance on my trips to Glasgow. I just wasn't used to the teacher coming to ask me to dance!!! But I really appreciated it, thanks!
Rachel

Franck
29th-November-2002, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
I know some teachers who say that raising the hand is only a lead for the lady to raise her own hand. Yes, I can relate to that. I suppose raising the hand is not enough, though maybe, raising your hand over your partner's head might be a better lead for a turn.
I suspect this is no more than a useful 'short-hand' to lead a turn. As you say, most women develop a 'Pavlovian reflex' and turn as soon as their hand goes up. Very useful it is too, except for the odd move, like the stepacross, where the men raise the hand to walk underneath it, and many women proceed to turn, resulting in a clash.

On the other hand, saying that raising the hand is only a lead for the lady to raise her hand is a bit simplistic, most leading actions imply a whole body movement from a subtle hand movement, so it is not too far-fetched to read a turn in raising the hand, especially as there is also forward momentum to take the hand over the lady's head (left or right side for CW / ACW).

Franck.

Franck
29th-November-2002, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by Rachel
I've danced at an awful lot of venues all round the country and, even when I was a very obvious beginner, have virtually never been asked to dance with the teacher. This saddens me tremendously, and I can only hope that a few Franchisee / Teachers reading this thread will pick up on that and check around their venues or modify their behaviour!

Originally posted by Rachel
Anyway, that's one of the reasons I was so shocked - and racked with nerves - when you asked me to dance on my trips to Glasgow. I just wasn't used to the teacher coming to ask me to dance!!! But I really appreciated it, thanks!Well, you hardly qualify as a Beginner, in fact I am sure I had to stand in a queue to eventually get a dance with you :wink:

Franck.

TheTramp
29th-November-2002, 12:24 PM
Speaking as a teacher, I have to say that not only do I enjoy dancing with beginners - and usually try to do so for at least part of the night, even when I'm not teaching. As far as I'm concerned, I am being paid (quite a reasonable sum of money) for my time for the entire night, and not just for the 1.25 hours when I'm actually teaching.

Maybe it should be pointed out to some of the above teachers that they are being paid for the night. If the teacher, who is usually the main focal point of the evening, isn't giving off the right attitude, then I think that the atmosphere can be affected for the entire evening.

I'm not sure I put that across quite as I intended to. Late night last night. I hope that you get the gist though.

Steve

Franck
29th-November-2002, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
If the teacher, who is usually the main focal point of the evening, isn't giving off the right attitude, then I think that the atmosphere can be affected for the entire evening.

I'm not sure I put that across quite as I intended to. Late night last night. I hope that you get the gist though.Loud and clear Steve :nice:
I totally agree. This point was touched upon in a previous thread (about cliques). Teachers influence far more than just the dancing ability of their class.

Franck.

Rachel
29th-November-2002, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Franck
This saddens me tremendously, and I can only hope that a few Franchisee / Teachers reading this thread will pick up on that and check around their venues or modify their behaviour! Yes, let's hope so.


Well, you hardly qualify as a Beginner, in fact I am sure I had to stand in a queue to eventually get a dance with you :wink:
Franck. A very kind comment! ... yes, I have been doing Ceroc for a quite some time now, so I guess I'm not a beginner any more (but still more a beginner than Steve 'The Tramp' is!) ... I like to think that you were exaggerating a little about the 'queue' but, unfortunately, I know for a fact that it's downright untrue!

Actually, being in Glasgow really helped me get over my phobia about asking men to dance - and I don't think anyone turned me down, so that was a nice confidence booster. In fact, now I find I ask men to dance a lot, wherever I am, whereas I'd never dare to do that a few months ago.
R.

TheTramp
29th-November-2002, 12:44 PM
Hey!!

No-one is more of a beginner than I am.

You don't even have it in your title. Some beginner you are, Rachel!

Steve

Edited to acknowledge that you do now have it in your title. Copycat!! :wink:

Rachel
29th-November-2002, 01:04 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Hey!!

No-one is more of a beginner than I am.

You don't even have it in your title. Some beginner you are, Rachel!

Steve Um, exactly what is it you're beginner at , Steve???

Funny, I believed you the first time I was about to dance with you at Cricklewood when you told me you were a beginner! I think it took me all of, oh, 0.5 seconds to realise this was a slight untruth!

TheTramp
29th-November-2002, 01:28 PM
Ummm......

I'm not particularly good at fly fishing....

So, when am I going to get another dance then. Since we didn't actually manage to hook up at Camber at all :( Are you going to Bognor, or the blues in January?

Steve

DavidB
29th-November-2002, 02:04 PM
Originally posted by Rachel
I like to think that you were exaggerating a little about the 'queue' but, unfortunately, I know for a fact that it's downright untrue!I'm not so sure about that. The only way I managed to get a dance with you on Tuesday was to mug the man you had just been dancing with before he could ask you for another dance!

TheTramp
29th-November-2002, 02:20 PM
Is that the accepted way to get to the popular ladies then David?? *starts looking for baseball bat in red to match the shoes*

Steve

DavidB
29th-November-2002, 02:34 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Is that the accepted way to get to the popular ladies then David??Trampling over everyone else to get to the ladies - I wonder where I got the idea...

TheTramp
29th-November-2002, 02:37 PM
Hmmm.

From Nigel??

Steve

Rachel
29th-November-2002, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
Hey!!

No-one is more of a beginner than I am.

You don't even have it in your title. Some beginner you are, Rachel!

Steve

Edited to acknowledge that you do now have it in your title. Copycat!! :wink:

I didn't put it in my title! Curious ... Did you? Or Graham?

TheTramp
29th-November-2002, 03:00 PM
It was not I....I don't have the facility to do things like that.

I'll offer 2-1 on that it was Franck though...

Steve

Rachel
29th-November-2002, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
It was not I....I don't have the facility to do things like that.

I'll offer 2-1 on that it was Franck though...

Steve Yes, of course it would have been Franck! It's funny! I guess it could have been something much worse!

Franck
29th-November-2002, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by Rachel
I didn't put it in my title! Curious ... Did you? Or Graham? Guilty as charged :sorry :nice:

I reckon it's quite nice, but I can change it to something more appropriate at any time! Just let me know, and NO Steve, this is not an invitation for suggestions of better titles :wink:

Franck.

TheTramp
29th-November-2002, 03:05 PM
What? Me?? C'mon Franck, you know I'm as sweet and innocent as the day is long. What suggestions would, nay could, I make??

Although, on the other hand........

Steve

Rachel
29th-November-2002, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
I'm not so sure about that. The only way I managed to get a dance with you on Tuesday was to mug the man you had just been dancing with before he could ask you for another dance! Oh David, I only wish I could believe that! The only reason I was having quite a few dances at Ealing was because there were so many familiar faces.

I'm still reeling from the shock and pleasure of Graham LeClerc asking me to dance ... but having to turn him down - no, postpone him - because I was just about to dance with someone else. I never did get round to finding him for a dance later. Think I'll live to regret that!

But you know I would have walked over hell and high water to get an opportunity to dance with you, David. It's just that I keep embarrassing myself by dancing sooo badly with you and some of my very bad habits start coming out - like anticipating spins, when you really wanted to block me and make me turn the other way. I'm sorry!!! However, the only way I can see to remedy this is to keep on trying to get dances with you until I start improving!

By the way, Lily looked absolutely fantastic (as ever) dancing on Tuesday!
Rachel

Rachel
29th-November-2002, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by Franck
Guilty as charged :sorry :nice:

I reckon it's quite nice, but I can change it to something more appropriate at any time! No, I like it - reminds me of the film. (Yes, it was a crap film, but I am a big Bowie fan.)

Rachel
29th-November-2002, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
So, when am I going to get another dance then. Since we didn't actually manage to hook up at Camber at all. Steve I noticed! For some reason, both you and Marc abandoned me - the whole weekend - to do exciting things with Marilene!! (Could it possibly be because she's good looking, a fantastic dancer and nice person to boot?)

But I'm yours to dance with any time you like. Won't be at Bognor, I'm afraid, but will be at Camber in May and fancy coming down to the Brighton weekend in February.
R.

TheTramp
29th-November-2002, 03:25 PM
Could it possibly be because she's good looking, a fantastic dancer and nice person to boot?
I happen to think that you fall into all of these categories too. I'm not quite sure what happened :( Just one of those things I guess. I'll come looking for you next time.

Would have been at Hipsters on Tuesday, if I hadn't been teaching in Brighton. Although, I gather that it was pretty busy. I think I'll be there next week, although, I guess that you won't be making the journey down from Northampton ever week :( I'll look forward to the next time, and make sure that I come find you (and vice versa I hope!)....

Steve

DavidB
29th-November-2002, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by Rachel
It's just that I keep embarrassing myself by dancing sooo badly with you and some of my very bad habits start coming out - like anticipating spins, when you really wanted to block me and make me turn the other way.As has been said before, it is the man's fault. I can't get used to the speed that you spin, and I was usually too late to lead you properly. It can get embarrasing if I mis-time a block (especially if Marc or Lily is watching!) I need more practice dancing with you.

I'm starting to think one of the hardest things about leading is adjusting to the lady - ie leading your moves the way she wants them to be led.

David

Rachel
29th-November-2002, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp

I happen to think that you fall into all of these categories too. I'm not quite sure what happened :( Just one of those things I guess. I'll come looking for you next time. Oh wow ... I've gone all red now ... glad no-one else is in the office to see me! Very flattered ... However, I still think it's a big possibility you don't know which Rachel from Northampton you're talking to here. Must be hundreds of us ...

Looking forward to the next time we dance!

Actually, (and this kind of relates to when I've danced with David and Franck, too) I think the best dance we had was our first one ever, because - even though you were obviously so good - I didn't know exactly how good you were at first and didn't have time to work myself up into getting all nervous.

I know this is all completely ridiculous - and I keep telling myself that all the time - but the better someone is, the more scared I get, even if I know the person and know how lovely they are!

But I am beginning to get more confident now - look, I'm even asking men to dance!!! There must be some hope!
Rachel

TheTramp
29th-November-2002, 04:18 PM
you don't know which Rachel from Northampton you're talking to here. Must be hundreds of us ...
You're the one with the great legs, right?!? (You did say that you were red, right?) :wink:

You mean that it's not gotten any better since the first time?? I'll do my best to work on that next time I get to see you....

As for being lovely. You have to remember that I'm mean and nasty and evil (I have a reputation to think of here :devil: )

Steve

Emma
29th-November-2002, 04:19 PM
Originally posted by Rachel
It's just that I keep embarrassing myself by dancing sooo badly with you and some of my very bad habits start coming out - like anticipating spins, when you really wanted to block me and make me turn the other way.


You aren't the only one, Rachel, I find this often happens when I dance with someone that I know is a good dancer. For instance, when I danced with Elliot at Camber I was lousy. And then my trousers came unbuttonned..... :sorry I had the same problem dancing with TheTramp on Wednesday (the dancing, not the trousers!!!)


Originally posted by DavidB
I'm starting to think one of the hardest things about leading is adjusting to the lady - ie leading your moves the way she wants them to be led.


I find it usually takes me about three dances to adapt to someone else's way of dancing - sometimes much longer.

Rachel
29th-November-2002, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
As has been said before, it is the man's fault. I can't get used to the speed that you spin, and I was usually too late to lead you properly. It can get embarrasing if I mis-time a block (especially if Marc or Lily is watching!) I need more practice dancing with you.

I'm starting to think one of the hardest things about leading is adjusting to the lady - ie leading your moves the way she wants them to be led.

David No, it was definitely me dancing badly in that instance - no matter how good a man's lead is, there's not much he can do (at least, if he doesn't want to injure his partner) when a woman propels herself into a spin with that much force. I honestly don't know why I was doing that so much with you ... (I've been beating myself around the head about it ever since!)

Though you're right about adjusting to your partner - I remember you saying that a Ceroc-taught lady would find a WCS lead very light - and, yes, I do find you have a light lead. Especially as I'd had some very forceful leads that night before dancing with you, so the difference was even more evident.

But, yes please, I'm all for more practising!!!

Oh, but can I just ask - do you think I generally spin too fast, then? Should I try and slow them a bit? Or is the problem more the force of it? Or going to early?
Rachel

Rachel
29th-November-2002, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
You're the one with the great legs, right?!? (You did say that you were red, right?) :wink: Oh, fraid not - that's definitely not me!


You mean that it's not gotten any better since the first time?? I'm just saying that the more I see you dancing so brilliantly, the more scared I get and my dancing just gets worse and worse ...


As for being lovely. You have to remember that I'm mean and nasty and evil (I have a reputation to think of here :devil: ) Ok, sorry - I won't tell a soul that you're actually a little lamb in disguise!

TheTramp
29th-November-2002, 04:33 PM
I'm just saying that the more I see you dancing so brilliantly, the more scared I get and my dancing just gets worse and worse ...
Hmmm. I think you've maybe got the wrong Tramp then.

One possible solution of course, is to dance with me lots!! Just a suggestion you understand, but if you do want to take me up on it, then I promise not to object....

Steve

Rachel
29th-November-2002, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by Emma
I find it usually takes me about three dances to adapt to someone else's way of dancing - sometimes much longer. Yes, I need at the very least one dance just to adjust from one partner to the next (even with Marc), before I can get totally comfortable dancing with them. Which is what I find so hard in London where the norm often seems to be just one dance rather than the customary two in the midlands.

DavidB
29th-November-2002, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by Rachel
do you think I generally spin too fast, then? Should I try and slow them a bit? Or is the problem more the force of it? Or going to early?Most ladies would love to be able to spin quickly and stay on balance like you do. It gives you more chance to style after the spin, or the opportunity to do a double spin whenever you want. If you were forcing the spins, you would fall over afterwards, and I can't remember picking you up off the floor. And I've said before - don't worry about your timing!

Only slow down your spinning if you feel that the music calls for it, or you think your partner is trying to slow you down. Otherwise spinning quick is one of your strengths - so keep doing it!

It only affected me because I do a lot of blocked turns. I don't expect the lady to follow every block - especially if I leave them too late (like on a crowded floor). I usually hope the lady doesn't notice, and I would rather miss the block than the alternative. I aim to get the blocking hand in the middle of your back, but if you have turned another 180 degrees...

And next time I'll have 2 dances - if I can keep the other men away from you.

David

Rachel
29th-November-2002, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
And next time I'll have 2 dances - if I can keep the other men away from you.

David Mmmm, great! I'll make sure no other man gets in the way. Oh except for Steve The Expert Beginner, if he's around. I shall also be studying Lily very hard for dancing tips.

But, the pair of you - couldn't you at least try to dance a little more badly, to ease my nerves somewhat? Maybe tell a few jokes while we're dancing - oh, I think you both do that already -um, drip-feed me alcohol ...?

TheTramp
29th-November-2002, 05:25 PM
couldn't you at least try to dance a little more badly
I'm sure that I could do this very easily!!

Steve

DavidB
29th-November-2002, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by Rachel
Oh except for Steve The Expert Beginner, if he's around.Ok Steve. Double trouble with Rachel. She leads - we follow.

TheTramp
29th-November-2002, 05:51 PM
Sounds like a plan to me....

Maybe we can enter the Scottish Champs....

Steve

Rachel
29th-November-2002, 05:53 PM
Originally posted by DavidB
Ok Steve. Double trouble with Rachel. She leads - we follow. Now I like that idea!

(Must sign off now - though I'm having to take work home with me after, very stupidly (though I wouldn't have missed it!), having spent so much time on the forum today!! Wishing you all a lovely weekend!)

Gary
29th-November-2002, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by Gadget

I always try to dance with beginners - and most of the time I have excellent dances: They have less preconceptions about what a move should be and are more inclined to go where you lead them instead of where they think you are trying to lead them.
My theory is that if I can't lead a move smoothly with a beginner, then it's not really worth adding to my repertoire. The only exception is ...

I strongly agree. A good quote I saw somewhere is that "dancing with beginners makes you a better leader, dancing with experienced dancers makes you a better dancer". The acid test for "do I know move X" is "can I lead a beginner through move X" without forcing or scaring her.

It's crazy the number of guys who don't dance much (or even at all) with beginner girls. Dancing with beginner girls: makes me a better leader; builds up the pool of experienced girl dancers for later; is a nice thing to do; is a lot of fun. It's a real buzz when the girl says "I didn't know I could do all those moves".

Although as you say there are some exceptions, moves that look/feel very nice but require the follower to know what's going on. Not many, though.

TheTramp
29th-November-2002, 11:43 PM
My theory is that if I can't lead a move smoothly with a beginner, then it's not really worth adding to my repertoire. The only exception is ...
I'm sorry, but I can't agree with this. I frequently dance with beginners, and if I danced the same way with them as I do with any experienced (or should I say good, cos experience doesn't always mean that!) dancer, they'd run away screaming and never come back.

I have to tone down the type of move (and also the number of moves, and the style) with beginners. And I don't just mean stopping doing the dips etc. but I think that any number of moves with beginners aren't really leadable. A lot of beginners are struggling to hear the beat, and move their feet - start doing anything harder than beginner moves, and they're quite often lost. Next time I'm up in Scotland, if you want to take a real beginner, and start leading her through all the variations on neckbreaks, pretzels, backhanders, archie-spins (all what I would call 'nice' moves) and prove me wrong, I'll be willing to eat my hat.

This doesn't of course apply to those girls who have a natural sense of rhythm, the ability to move, and/or have done some other form of dancing beforehand. Maybe Scottish ladies are just more naturally gifted than their counterparts down here...

I don't disagree with the other statements about beginners - just the one that says if you can't lead a beginner through it, it's not worth doing (just to make myself clear).

Steve

Gary
30th-November-2002, 12:03 AM
Originally posted by Lou


Guilty as charged, M'Lord.

I've never known really what I should do in a class situation when there's a poor lead. I, and most other ladies, just proceed to where we're meant to be, regardless of a lack of lead. I'm quite self-conscious in a class situation, anyway, and I'd hate to be seen by a teacher doing a move/routine wrong, when it's not my fault & I'd been led badly. :eek:

I've been told I'm the "world's worst" follower when I've attempted switching roles, so perhaps I should shut up, but ...

A friend of mine who is a good follower just doesn't move in the class unless the leader actually leads her. She gets some funny looks from some of the guys, because they're used to effectively being led by the girls, but I think it's the only way for us guys to learn.

As a leader, mostly I pick up the new moves quickly and can lead them in the class. Occasionally the move is trickier, and (girls being quicker at learning this stuff than guys, dammit) sometimes the girls try to "help". For me at least, this often kills any chance I have of learning to lead the move. I would like to be more able to learn a move with the girl's help, but it's a skill I don't have much of yet.

It is a big ask, though, for the girl to deliberately look clueless just because the guy isn't up to leading scratch yet. If it's any consolation any time I see a couple not "with it" in class I assume it's the guy's fault.

TheTramp
30th-November-2002, 12:09 AM
any time I see a couple not "with it" in class I assume it's the guy's fault
Isn't it always the guys fault? Whether in a class, or just in freestyle...

Steve

Emma
30th-November-2002, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by gcapell


A friend of mine who is a good follower just doesn't move in the class unless the leader actually leads her.

I do this, sometimes, but really it makes me feel so mean. Sometimes men say to me 'Oh I'll be alright you know what you're doing' and it doesn't seem fair at that point to just not follow if they haven't got the move.

TheTramp
30th-November-2002, 04:01 PM
men say to me 'Oh I'll be alright you know what you're doing'
Ummm. Good job that it's a FEmale led dance eh. Or they'd really be in trouble....

Steve

Heather
30th-November-2002, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp

Isn't it always the guys fault? Whether in a class, or just in freestyle...

Steve

.......... Or life in general !!!!!!!LOL.:wink: :wink:

:cheers:
Heather,
:kiss: :kiss:

TheTramp
30th-November-2002, 04:20 PM
Well, I'm not so sure about that Heather....

You see, when I'm teaching, or dancing, I always accept full responsibility, since it's me who's in charge. So, if things go wrong, then it's my fault.

Now, in life in general. Since the women are in charge. If things go wrong, surely they are the ones who have to hold up their hands and admit responsibility??

Steve :what:

Graham
30th-November-2002, 04:23 PM
Firstly I completely agree with Steve's post about moves you can do with beginners. I guess what you can do depends on your skill as a leader, but I think inevitably there will be some moves which either don't work at all or don't work so well. For example, any move which requires the follower to improvise is going to send a beginner into a panic, but there are a raft of others which are simply difficult to lead unless there is a good connection with the follower, and beginners typically don't have this.

On the issue of followers helping, I have mixed views. When I am trying to work out the mechanics of a move (which arm is going up, which direction is this turn) and the follower has understood already, I'd prefer her to tell me or show me, as this way I will understand more quickly. However, once we're doing it to a beat or to music I'd rather she allowed me to try and lead, even if it goes wrong. To be honest, I find this a much bigger problem with beginner women than more experienced dancers, especially when they are oblivious to the fact that I am leading the moves, and they don't actually need to follow the teacher instead! :reallymad :reallymad When I do the beginners class I manage to grin and bear it, but beginners who join in the intermediate class on their first couple of nights deserve to be strung up!! :reallymad :reallymad :reallymad

Emma
30th-November-2002, 07:07 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp

Ummm. Good job that it's a FEmale led dance eh. Or they'd really be in trouble....

Steve

Don't getcha..:confused:

TheTramp
30th-November-2002, 07:11 PM
Ummm. The men who say, 'Oh I'll be alright you know what you're doing'.

You know. The men. Who are supposed to be leading.

If it wasn't for you leading them, they'd be in trouble.

Or something like that.

Steve

Emma
30th-November-2002, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp


Or something like that.



Nah, I doubt it...

Sorry, being un-naturally dense today, obviously :what: :grin:

TheTramp
30th-November-2002, 07:29 PM
S'okie. I spend most of my life like that.

Hmmm. So, would that become 'naturally' dense then??

Steve

Gadget
1st-December-2002, 01:40 AM
Originally posted by TheTramp
I'm sorry, but I can't agree with this. ~snip~. Next time I'm up in Scotland, if you want to take a real beginner, and start leading her through all the variations on neckbreaks, pretzels, backhanders, archie-spins (all what I would call 'nice' moves) and prove me wrong, I'll be willing to eat my hat.
...I have no doubt that you know lots and lots more moves {and/or variations} than I do :waycool:; I tend not to do neck breaks (I don't like the lead into them, but there are alternative ways to get to the same starting point), but back-handers & archie moves are not that bad.
Leading a beginner through "intermediate" moves not too difficult if you break it down: hardest bit is getting to the start of the move properly. Then if you pause or walk for a couple of beats to break the move where it changes from a standard move, it gives a better feel for where they are and where the move is moving them/you to.
Most intermediate moves are bits of one beginner move, tagged onto a bit of another with a re-direction/reversal/spin slotted in to make it a bit different.
{I wouldn't do any tunnels, secret catch or improvising moves either - only moves that can be lead. I do have problems sometimes with a wrap however (perhaps I need to work on leading it better:rolleyes: )}

I get your point with toning it down for beginner dancers, but I think that I do the opposite; I try to kick it up a level for better dancers (note 'try' :sick: )


Maybe Scottish ladies are just more naturally gifted than their counterparts down here...
It could also be that. I have only ever danced with two or three beginners that I have danced with the beginner's class moves and only the beginners class moves (I try to do those moves anyway, but tend to throw in a few variations and other basic connecting moves)


Originally posted by Graham
...especially when they are oblivious to the fact that I am leading the moves, and they don't actually need to follow the teacher instead!
Yea; trying to dance with someone that has their head straining to always be watching the stage when you are 'putting the moves together' is a pain; you need to match the demonstrator's moves and timing exactly or they lose it and try to lead you (most often with strength :what::mad: )

Jon
2nd-December-2002, 08:25 PM
Originally posted by Emma


I do this, sometimes, but really it makes me feel so mean. Sometimes men say to me 'Oh I'll be alright you know what you're doing' and it doesn't seem fair at that point to just not follow if they haven't got the move.

It's not being mean, not much anyway!. But it's the only way the men will learn to lead. When I started I hated a woman leading, but appreciated it when she helped me when she recognised I was struggling.

Jon
2nd-December-2002, 08:27 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
S'okie. I spend most of my life like that.

Hmmm. So, would that become 'naturally' dense then??

Steve

Watch it Steve! Some of our ladies are delicate flowers! :sad:

TheTramp
2nd-December-2002, 08:28 PM
But it's the only way the men will learn to lead. When I started I hated a woman leading, but appreciated it when she helped me when she recognised I was struggling.
I disagree. It might help you learn the move. But it doesn't help you learning how to lead. The only way you'll do that, is by leading. And not following.

On the other side of the coin. Has anyone noticed whether the women who lead in the class (in an attempt to 'help' the guy) are then more likely to want to lead, or at least, not follow so well, when it comes to dancing?

Steve

TheTramp
2nd-December-2002, 08:30 PM
Watch it Steve! Some of our ladies are delicate flowers!
Oh. I'm sure they are. Sort of.

If you look at that again though, you'll see that I was talking about myself!!

Steve

Gadget
2nd-December-2002, 11:48 PM
Originally posted by TheTramp
On the other side of the coin. Has anyone noticed whether the women who lead in the class (in an attempt to 'help' the guy) are then more likely to want to lead, or at least, not follow so well, when it comes to dancing?
With one or two exceptions, I think that those who lead in class don't actually lead on the dance floor, in my opinion they actually are among the better followers.
I think that they are only trying to get the move(s) correct in class so that they recognise them and know where to go when they are lead it properly. When it comes to freestyle, there is no-one on stage to follow, no pre-choreographed routine, so nothing to follow except the man's lead.

Graham
2nd-December-2002, 11:56 PM
Originally posted by Gadget

With one or two exceptions, I think that those who lead in class don't actually lead on the dance floor, in my opinion they actually are among the better followers.
I think that they are only trying to get the move(s) correct in class so that they recognise them and know where to go when they are lead it properly. When it comes to freestyle, there is no-one on stage to follow, no pre-choreographed routine, so nothing to follow except the man's lead.
So are you saying that ladies who do have a tendency to lead in freestyle are little lambs in the class? Seems a trifle unlikely.


Originally posted by TheTramp
Oh. I'm sure they are [delicate flowers]. Sort of.
Sort of delicate or sort of flowers? :devil:

Reklaw
3rd-December-2002, 12:47 AM
Originally posted by Jon
But it's the only way the men will learn to lead. When I started I hated a woman leading, but appreciated it when she helped me when she recognised I was struggling.
There's a significant but subtle difference between women who lead and those who can show the man how the move works then can switch to allow herself to be lead. It's a great skill for the female taxi-dancers!

We always have a problem with women leading, it's caused by the (inexperienced) men lacking confidence to lead a move firmly so the women push the men through the move, the men "learn" that the women know the move so they don't learn to lead it, which frustrates the women causing them to lead more..... and so on.

The way I try to get round it is to encourage the new women to dance with experienced men as soon as possible in the hope that they will not feel frustrated enough to start leading..... doesn't always work though.

Any tips on getting beginner men to lead firmly from the start gratefully accepted.

DavidB
3rd-December-2002, 02:44 AM
I would say that about 50% of the ladies backlead in a class, and 2% backlead in freestyle. What worries me is that so many ladies feel the need to backlead. Are we men so bad at leading???

David

Gadget
3rd-December-2002, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by Graham
So are you saying that ladies who do have a tendency to lead in freestyle are little lambs in the class? Seems a trifle unlikely.
Now I didn't say 'little lambs' - I'll leave the Aberdonian sheep inferences to Bill.:innocent:
All I am saying is that give those who tend to lead in class a decent lead and they follow it quite well. Although, now I think on it a bit more, it tends to be these people who over-anticipate the moves and make variations a bit harder to perform - but they do notice when they cause a move to go awry, and generally relax to let you get it right the next time.

Originally posted by DavidB
Are we men so bad at leading???
Perhaps it's just that most women are used to giving instructions rather than recieving them ? Us men don't normally get a chance to have that much control over a woman - we are a bit out of practice.
{doomed. :sick: - shouldn't have posted that...}

Lou
3rd-December-2002, 10:40 AM
Originally posted by Gadget
Perhaps it's just that most women are used to giving instructions rather than recieving them ? Us men don't normally get a chance to have that much control over a woman - we are a bit out of practice.
{doomed. :sick: - shouldn't have posted that...}
Hehehehe! :na:

TheTramp
3rd-December-2002, 10:52 AM
Perhaps it's just that most women are used to giving instructions rather than recieving them ? Us men don't normally get a chance to have that much control over a woman - we are a bit out of practice.
I'd start running for the hills now mate!!!

Steve

Lou
3rd-December-2002, 10:56 AM
It's bloomin' hard being a woman. :wink:

I like to think I do follow OK in freestyle though I'll admit to anticipating at times, which I wasn't really aware of until we started this discussion & I plan to work on (for example, it'll be the start of a Yoyo & I'll think... "oooh, a Yoyo, I know what to do, as opposed to being led).

The majority of men in freestyle have a good lead. Typically, they dance the moves that they know well. In a class situation, where they're learning new or unfamiliar moves, then the lead is weaker. If the lady knows it already, then you are going to get Emma's experience.

Dan
1st-December-2003, 06:52 PM
Originally posted by Lou
It's bloomin' hard being a woman. :wink:

I like to think I do follow OK in freestyle though I'll admit to anticipating at times, which I wasn't really aware of until we started this discussion & I plan to work on (for example, it'll be the start of a Yoyo & I'll think... "oooh, a Yoyo, I know what to do, as opposed to being led).

The majority of men in freestyle have a good lead. Typically, they dance the moves that they know well. In a class situation, where they're learning new or unfamiliar moves, then the lead is weaker. If the lady knows it already, then you are going to get Emma's experience.

You've said it. It is all about familiarity of the lady with the move as led by that particular man. I find that a large percentage of ladies, particularly the intermediate ones will self lead during the classes but be absolutely fine in freestyle, in terms of following the lead. The classes must be a bit boring for them.
In Freestyle if the man is boring and repeat the same moves, then this encourages the lady to think that she knows what he intends to do, and she will "help".
Therefore my advice to me fellow male dancers is - keep it interesting and keep the ladies on their toes and keen. We cannot have them falling asleep or doing their own thing. For men who are beginners and doing a limited number of moves, try to vary the order of the moves or just vary your facial expression or something else, make them laugh/or cry. We can't have the ladies starting an new fashion of officially leading and us following. (Most of us are quite useless at turning and spinning, don't tell them.)

Andre

TheTramp
1st-December-2003, 07:46 PM
This just has to be a record for bringing back old threads....

363 days between the last two posts!!! You could have waited 2 more days for it's first anniversary.... :D

Steve

Dan
2nd-December-2003, 11:02 AM
Originally posted by TheTramp
This just has to be a record for bringing back old threads....

363 days between the last two posts!!! You could have waited 2 more days for it's first anniversary.... :D

Steve

Hey! I am new and eveything here is so interesting!

How are you Steve. I hope that I have not done something out of order. Talking of out of order, some of the threads, particularly this one, are multi-stranded. Is it acceptable to pick up on an earlier topic and to add to the discussion. I imagine that the submissions can get a bit intertwined and confusing if this is done.

Andre

TheTramp
2nd-December-2003, 11:25 AM
Originally posted by Andr
I hope that I have not done something out of order. Absolutely not. I was just amused to see that it was such an old thread. Bring back as many as you like - lots of new people haven't seen them, and don't have the time to go trawling through the archives to find them. So it's always good when people bring back interesting threads.

Nice to see you here. Hope that it remains interesting! :D

Steve

Franck
2nd-December-2003, 11:32 AM
Originally posted by Andr
Hey! I am new and eveything here is so interesting!

How are you Steve. I hope that I have not done something out of order. Talking of out of order, some of the threads, particularly this one, are multi-stranded. Is it acceptable to pick up on an earlier topic and to add to the discussion. I imagine that the submissions can get a bit intertwined and confusing if this is done.Hi Andr,

Glad you find the old threads interesting. You are doing nothing wrong wading back in time and resurrecting the older ones... So many of the topics were discussed at a time when the Forum only had a 1 or 2 hundred members, so it is useful to bring them back to the top :nice:

The Forum works on the basis that the topics that get discussed the most, stay at the top, which is great if you want to know what goes on, but a shame for some topics where people took more time to think, and then somehow disappeared off the page...

Franck.