Following - the Dreamstate

[Feelingpink]

I'm aware that I could improve my following and have had feedback that I need to think less. I realised that there was only one person with whom I didn't 'think' - I just switch off and have very little idea of why I follow - consciously anyway - Amir. I wondered if this is part-way explained by his teaching at Jango last week, when he said that he leads a move, allows the woman to follow and then follows her. It seems to me that this way of leading means that there is virtually no chance of the woman messing up - and so no fear of missing a lead - and a wonderfully 'safe' dance.

But how do I get into that non-thinking dreamstate/zone with other partners, is it possible and how will I know when I'm there? (If it's anything like a hypnotic trance, you might not even fully realise you're in one until you come out).

Somehow, last night it just happened - and I had what felt like great dances with all sorts of people with whom I dance regularly (and often feel I don't follow well) - and I was following without being conscious or fully conscious of their leads. My partners' versions of events may be different, but it felt so good most of the night and I have no idea how I got there - wish I did, so I could reproduce it.

Has anyone else had similar experiences or tried this?

[Mary]

I remember in a lead/follow class with Amir quite some time ago that he mentioned the lady should 'not think', and this does make following much easier.

The bit I find hard is keeping the senses alert enough to add improv. and 'other stuff' without interfering with the lead/follow too much.

And, yes, Amir's teaching tip for each move of 'man leads, lady follows then man follows' really does work. It makes for far better flow and connection to the dance IMO. And it just feels great for the lady. :worthy:

M

[Zebra Woman]

mmmm I try never to think. Strangely it's not that hard once you get used to it :blush: .

Following in a dream-like state, that's where it's at. :drool: I just love dances like that. It doesn't happen everytime, but that's what makes them so special.

It is all too easy to shatter the trance like state too - speech, being trodden on, a stamped foot, a smell, the next track thumping :eek: .....

Oh yes and it's even better if the man somehow gets into a semi-trance like state too. How they manage it whilst still leading I don't know. Amazing :worthy: :clap:

[Minnie M]

Alcohol helps :whistle:

[Gary]

The "Dreamstate" you're talking about, where you're not thinking, but just reacting perfectly, is known more commonly as "flow". I think the first very popular book about it was "Flow: The psychology of optimal experience". Another great book I recommend which talks about flow and how to enter that state is "The Inner Game of Tennis" (very worth reading even if you don't play tennis). Any sports psychologist would have advice on how to get your head out of the way of what you're trying to do.

[Wendy]

he leads a move, allows the woman to follow and then follows her. It seems to me that this way of leading means that there is virtually no chance of the woman messing up - and so no fear of missing a lead - and a wonderfully 'safe' dance. Sounds magic !!! Can't say I've really experienced that.. well maybe I have.. I suppose when I forget about the idea of "moves".... I'm thinking of a few people who just seem to really dance as opposed to stringing a load of learned moves together.. the long yummy (repeatable and therefore with no real end) moves make this easier (ie standing in front of the guy facing away from him and simply swaying.. sigh..)... and easier with slow dances too.. maybe you have more time to connect...

I'm wondering if dancing to a metronome would be a good exercise (not too inspiring but that's the point)..so that music doesn't get in the way...(I know that seems mad !!!! cos it does to me !!!!) you have to follow the guy and tune in to his interpretation of the (lack of) music... you get the connection without the music and then put it to music.... I'm going to try it anyway... in fact I might even try it without a metronome....

Wx

[Lory]

Alcohol helps :whistle:
:yeah: Before I even read down to this post, I was already thinking the same thing! :blush: :D

[bigdjiver]

I have tried dancing without music or metronome once, and the connection, from my end at least, was amazing.

[Feelingpink]

...
I'm wondering if dancing to a metronome would be a good exercise (not too inspiring but that's the point)..so that music doesn't get in the way...(I know that seems mad !!!! cos it does to me !!!!) you have to follow the guy and tune in to his interpretation of the (lack of) music... you get the connection without the music and then put it to music.... I'm going to try it anyway... in fact I might even try it without a metronome....

Wx

I think the music does matter and is part of the experience. When I danced with someone who was paying no attention to phrasing and breaks (although nice in so many other ways), the spell was broken.

[Andreas]

I think it has a lot to do with comfort and familiarity. For example, I find that a lot of ladies try to catch my hand, just because I use my hands for style. Whereas, if I want the hand I will go and get it. So people who were familiar with my style, as far as that is possible anyway, will stop looking for a hand because they'd not be afraid missing something.

:flower:

[jivecat]

Following in a dream-like state, that's where it's at. :drool: I just love dances like that. It doesn't happen everytime, but that's what makes them so special.



Yes, yes, yes. I love those dances where I'm in a state balanced between total concentration and mindless receptivity. Only happens about once every three months. I can have a dance like that with someone who I've danced with loads of times before and then not get that feeling again with them for ages. Sometimes it's almost a shame, because having reached that nirvana subsequent dances with that person have a sense of something to live up to. It has to be a good track with a musical dancer who does things unconventionally so I can't make any unconscious predictions about what might be coming next, except I know it's gonna be good. That makes me concentrate hard and I have to clear my mind of expectations so I can be ready for anything that might be thrown at me. And someone I feel comfortable and safe with so I can relax.

I've realised I'm useless in beginner's classes now, because I never listen to what the teacher says any more, just go into Dancing Stepford Wife Mode, which is no use at all to the poor dear beginner chaps who expect me to know what to do. :blush:

[MartinHarper]

He leads a move, allows the woman to follow and then follows her. It seems to me that this way of leading means that there is virtually no chance of the woman messing up...

Well, the woman can still mess up (as can the man), but it can interfere less with the dance if the guy back-follows the mistake, rather than saying "no! you will follow!".
Whether the woman realises that the lead/follow has gone temporarilly awry is another matter - it's kinda a contest between the man's backfollowing, and the woman's awareness.

[David Bailey]

Oh yes and it's even better if the man somehow gets into a semi-trance like state too. How they manage it whilst still leading I don't know. Amazing
Oh, it's easy not to think :D


Sometimes it's almost a shame, because having reached that nirvana subsequent dances with that person have a sense of something to live up to.
:yeah: totally, and if you try to recapture that level, you never get it, the whole point is that you are both relaxed and focussed. All those dodgy Kung Fu movies were right all along, who'd have thought it...



I've realised I'm useless in beginner's classes now, because I never listen to what the teacher says any more, just go into Dancing Stepford Wife Mode, which is no use at all to the poor dear beginner chaps who expect me to know what to do. :blush:
I demo'd a beginners class a while back, it was really hard to remember to just do those moves, and to do them correctly... I found myself adding an extra spin (me) on one move, got a ticking-off :blush:

[Gadget]

I demo'd a beginners class a while back, it was really hard to remember to just do those moves, and to do them correctly... I found myself adding an extra spin (me) on one move, got a ticking-off :blush:I never get the beginners class 100% right. :tears: Even 90% right would be an improvement - forgetting moves, adding in bits, getting the timing wrong, skipping a return, adding in a return, putting in a double spin instead of a single, stepping in instead of out, leading the lady to the wrong place, moving to the wrong place, catching with the wrong hand, not letting go of the right hand,...

*sigh*:( just give me freestyle where I can make these mistakes look planned :wink:

[Feelingpink]

If dancing with Amir's "lead, she follows, you follow" was a conversation, perhaps it would go something like this ...


F: What shall we eat?
L: How about fish?
F: Ooh, yes. Fish on its own kinda grilled or ... ?
L: How about as comfort food.
F: Mmm. That sounds very good. So, fish pie ... ?
L: Perfect. All that buttery white sauce and fluffy mashed potato on top.
F: Yum, with some fresh green vege to set it off.
L: Definitely, I'm hungry already. Let's go shopping together.


Conventional option ...

F: What shall we eat?
L: I like fish. We'll have that.
F: Both of us?
L: Yes. We'll have it in a pie, like my mother makes.
F: Oh, right.
L: Of course. It's best with fresh green vege.
F: I don't know if I can cook it like your mother does.
L: No, you probably can't. No-one is as good a cook as my mother.
F: Oh.

Of course, if it was Lory or Minnie's conversation, you'd have to add in a nice bottle of Chablis :wink:

[foxylady]

If dancing with Amir's "lead, she follows, you follow" was a conversation, perhaps it would go something like this ...


F: What shall we eat?
L: How about fish?
F: Ooh, yes. Fish on its own kinda grilled or ... ?
L: How about as comfort food.
F: Mmm. That sounds very good. So, fish pie ... ?
L: Perfect. All that buttery white sauce and fluffy mashed potato on top.
F: Yum, with some fresh green vege to set it off.
L: Definitely, I'm hungry already. Let's go shopping together.


Conventional option ...

F: What shall we eat?
L: I like fish. We'll have that.
F: Both of us?
L: Yes. We'll have it in a pie, like my mother makes.
F: Oh, right.
L: Of course. It's best with fresh green vege.
F: I don't know if I can cook it like your mother does.
L: No, you probably can't. No-one is as good a cook as my mother.
F: Oh.

Of course, if it was Lory or Minnie's conversation, you'd have to add in a nice bottle of Chablis :wink:

Oooh what a great analogy ! and I'm about as likely to enjoy eating 'conventionally' as I am to dance that way....

My conversation would certainly involve some Chablis or possibly a Cloudy Bay Sauvingnon, or a nice full bodied Shiraz...

[bigdjiver]

L: Halibut :confused: No, I mean Haddock
F: There are so many extra ladies here tonight :sad:

[MartinHarper]

I like the word "conversation" for these sorts of wordless exchanges, even if it's not always accurate.

F: "How about a little dip here?"
L: "How about not?"

[El Salsero Gringo]

... or in many cases:

L: "¿Cuándo está el tren siguiente a ParÃ*s?"
F: "香烟和一盒火柴二个小包喜!"

[Wendy]

L : Fish for dinner then.
F : Em I'm a vegetarian.
L : Fish it is !!
F: No. As I said, I'm a vegetarian.
L : Yeah fish !!! ..with chips maybe..don't know if I have any potatoes..and maybe tartar sauce.....
F :F : I'm a vegetarian !!
L : or a pickled onion...haven't had one of those for ages !
F : (If I hide everything under the bread he won't notice I'm not eating the fish.....)
L : Fish. What a great idea that was ! :waycool:
F : (Oh god it'll be a barbg with great whacking steaks for dinner tomorrow :sick: ) We've got to talk....

Wxxx

[David Bailey]

L: Try some fish, you'll love it!
F: No, I've tried it, I don't like it.
L: Seriously - look, here you go (proffers fish)
F: NO - I don't like it, it makes me ill.
L: Ah, but you haven't tried my fish before... (proffers fish more aggressively)
F: NO! I've told you, I hate fish! I'll be sick!
L: Look, just one bite - there (stuffs fish into F's mouth)
F: (Chews fish, glaring at L, getting it over with as quick as possible) OK, fine - happy now?
L: How about another bite then...?

[Feelingpink]

...
F : (Oh god it'll be a barbg with great whacking steaks for dinner tomorrow :sick: ) We've got to talk....


Wxxx

We've got to talk ... or we've got to listen? :blush:

[Wendy]

I think the music does matter and is part of the experience. When I danced with someone who was paying no attention to phrasing and breaks (although nice in so many other ways), the spell was broken.Of course it does :flower: ... and that's why my suggestion of no music seemed ridiculous at first. It's just that the worst dances I have are the ones where I am passionate about the music (usually a track I know outside in) and the guy thinks he is dancing to a dripping tap. I thought with no music I could concentrate on following the lead rather than following the music. But then as soon as I'd put the music back on maybe it would just be the same with that person... :sad:

I'm coming to the conclusion that if I want to enjoy mj as much as I did as a a beginner, then I have to follow better and "dance" less. There are very few people I can really dance with. So instead of enjoying 4 dances a night, I can start to get a kick out of following...

Wx

[Lory]

Dreamstate.............


L - Would you like fish tonight?
F - Oooh you must have read my mind
L - Flame grilled?
F - Amazing! that's just the way I like it
L - with lemon butter dressing?
F - Now your really talking my language
L & F (same time) Chablis? :drool:

[Lory]

It's just that the worst dances I have are the ones where I am passionate about the music (usually a track I know outside in) and the guy thinks he is dancing to a dripping tap.


:yeah: I can really empathise with this!


I'm coming to the conclusion that if I want to enjoy mj as much as I did as a a beginner, then I have to follow better and "dance" less. There are very few people I can really dance with. So instead of enjoying 4 dances a night, I can start to get a kick out of following...
I doubt you'll ever be able to switch off and go back now :rolleyes: once you've started to really hear all those little subtleties, accents and emphasises in the music, :waycool: you'll never be able to shut them out again!

And yes, it becomes double edged sword!

[Wendy]

I doubt you'll ever be able to switch off and go back now :rolleyes: once you've started to really hear all those little subtleties, accents and emphasises in the music, :waycool: you'll never be able to shut them out again! Maybe the solution is a pocketsize metronome which you can set to the beat of the music, put an earpiece in and hey presto !!! I can hear a dripping tap and can therefore follow the guy's musical interpretation... didn't that Stepford mob come up with something like that ???? :rofl:

I have noticed that the "best" lady dancers don't dance with everyone in the room... So am I really doing my dancing any good by being able to dance with everyone ?? Does that just make life better for those less than perfect men ?? Am I just trying to be the perfect taxi ?? mmm... worrying thought...

Wxxx

[DavidB]

L - How about fish?
F - Yes, a nice juicy steak sounds great
L - I fancy something different, like monkfish poached in milk, asparagus tips, with a Hollandaise sauce on the side.
F - Yes, a nice rare steak, with chips & mushy peas sounds great.
L - What do you want to drink? A nice light chardonnay?
F - Beer - thats a great idea.

2 minutes later they are having paella, and enjoying it, but then the Maitre'd walks over...
MD - I'm a world renowned expert in all types of food, and therefore most know far more than you. You are not allowed to enjoy food that has no foundation. I suggest a deep fried breeze block, with a side order of gravel, and washed down with some quick drying cement.
L - [confused] But that isn't food. I thought you said you were an expert.
MD - Of course I'm an expert. Surely you have heard of me? Arlene...?

[Wendy]

And I can't take the credit for the "dripping tap" comment.. l think it was Mrs Dance Demon who said that to me ages ago.. :worthy:

Wx

[David Franklin]

MD - Of course I'm an expert. Surely you have heard of me? Arlene...?Later, another couple are enjoying lobster bisque when the MD comes over...
MD - I have to say, you stir that bisque like I've never seen anyone before! But I'm concerned by your choice of such a heavy starter. What's going to happen when you have to throw it over your head?

[DavidB]

Being a bit more serious.

With the really good ladies, you get 'active' followers and 'passive' followers. (If you can think of a better description then please tell me.)

The 'Dreamstate' Feelingpink talks about is a 'passive' follower. She has absolutely no preconceptions about what you are going to lead, or what she is going to do. The leader can then be as creative as he wants to be. I've seen this taken to its extreme by some lambada dancers where the lady is almost like a rag doll. The first stage I notice is when the lady keeps going until you stop her. As soon as she is doing this, you can just redirect her momentum to lead her.

An 'active' follower is always trying to add something to the dance. As a leader you have to be watching all the time so that you let her finish what she is doing. But as the dance is less about preserving her momentum, it becomes easier to change the speed of the dance.

I am not saying one is better than the other - the ability to do both is probably the ideal. Some of the best dances I've had have been when it keeps changing from one to the other. It depends on the music as well. Some songs just suit a particular way of dancing.

Nice thread - it has given me something to think about.

David

[Wendy]

L - How about fish?
F - Yes, a nice juicy steak sounds great
L - I fancy something different, like monkfish poached in milk, asparagus tips, with a Hollandaise sauce on the side.
F - Yes, a nice rare steak, with chips & mushy peas sounds great.
L - What do you want to drink? A nice light chardonnay?
F - Beer - thats a great idea.

2 minutes later they are having paella, and enjoying it, but then the Maitre'd walks over...
MD - I'm a world renowned expert in all types of food, and therefore most know far more than you. You are not allowed to enjoy food that has no foundation. I suggest a deep fried breeze block, with a side order of gravel, and washed down with some quick drying cement.
L - [confused] But that isn't food. I thought you said you were an expert.
MD - Of course I'm an expert. Surely you have heard of me? Arlene...?
Fab !!!! :rofl:

And just as we talk about Following - the dreamstate, who should walk in ???
:worthy: :hug: :kiss: :hug: :worthy:

[Wendy]

An 'active' follower is always trying to add something to the dance.I'm an active follower .. I'm an active follower !!!! Maybe I'm not a bulldozer afterall !!!!!
:D :D :D

skip skip

and yes - that was another fine example of active following !!!
Yippee !!!! I am free !!!!!!

Yeah I know !! I still have a little work to do on my passive following.... :innocent:

Wxxx

[Wendy]

So does that mean that you get active leaders and passive leaders ????? And they should practise both too ?? I am just too excited now !!!!!

Wxxx

[Franck]

F: What shall we eat?
L: I like fish. We'll have that.
F: Both of us?
L: Yes. We'll have it in a pie, like my mother makes.
F: Oh, right.
L: Of course. It's best with fresh green vege.
F: I don't know if I can cook it like your mother does.
L: No, you probably can't. No-one is as good a cook as my mother.
F: Oh. :rofl:
That was excellent! :D I also loved all the variations that followed.

I don't think they represent what happens on the dance floor due to the implicit 'Lead & Follow' aspect of dance. In my view a dance is more like a Degustation menu presented by the chef. The Diner (follower) will then either:
- like the surprise dishes offered (and follow them),
- complain about the lack of flavour (if a dish is too subtle)
- ask for some more bread if it's too light (and she's hungry)
- grab food off the plate before it's even placed on the table (if she's anticipating)
- use her dish and that of her dining companion to create an even better combination, therefore inspiring the chef (if she's a creative active follower)
- Complain about the timing of the meal (how could you miss that break?)
- Complain that the food is too hot / too cold (it surely can't be that hard to insert a suitable break?)
- Inspired by the feel and flavours of the food, will eat it seductively, flirting with the chef.
- send the duck back because it is not cooked enough to their taste
- mention often that their Death by Chocolate dessert is nowhere near as good as the BTC experience
- realise she wasn't very hungry in the first place (but still think it was the chef's fault for not inspiring her to eat anyway)
- mention she's on a diet (or a vegetarian / wheat intolerant / etc...) (so won't do drops / close moves / fast music / slow music / etc... delete as appropriate)

Leaders try to offer the best meal within their experience / abilities, and all have their areas of speciality, you wouldn't go to a famous fish restaurant and order a burger! Yet there might be time (and tracks) where a burger is more satisfying than a broiled sole or lobster tail.


I'm coming to the conclusion that if I want to enjoy mj as much as I did as a a beginner, then I have to follow better and "dance" less. There are very few people I can really dance with. So instead of enjoying 4 dances a night, I can start to get a kick out of following.That's an interesting observation, I often get asked why I still get a kick out of dancing after dancing a minimum of 2 or 3 times a week for the last 15 years, and to my mind the trick has been to switch focus and get satisfaction from different aspects of the dance.
• Focusing on your following or helping out men with potential to see the light is a great way to enjoy a larger part of the night, though as a Taxi-dancer you have already done more than your fair share already :hug:
I get the most satisfaction out of seeing Beginners smile and come back enthused. Similarly, it's great to see someone who has been dancing for a couple of years suddenly 'get' to the next stage following a class.
• Working on a specific skill also helps, and I reckon the work you've started on compression / leverage and your general connection will provide you with weeks of fun refining it, followed by many more months / years of enjoying the benefits.
• Developing musicality and appreciation of different styles of music has also been a great help for me, there is great pleasure in all musical tracks, and it is there to be found (yes, even in 'Call on me' :wink: ). Asking yourself why some people love a track, and you don't is a good way to start...

The road is long, and the rewards many :D

[Mary]

Franck, you're my hero, oh omnipotent one. :worthy: :worthy: :hug: (after DavidB that is :wink: ). Well, OK it's a close call. :devil:

M

[MartinHarper]

does that mean that you get active leaders and passive leaders ?

Well, passive followers "just" follow, whereas active followers look to add something to the dance in addition to following. Both active followers and passive followers are still following, and good following is 50% of good active following.

Yes, I think there is a parallel to leading here. Some leaders "just" lead, whereas some leaders look to add something in addition to leading - perhaps a few spins of their own, for example. If a guy adds something to the dance that detracts from the clarity of his lead, that's a problem. Being an "active leader", or whatever, is not an excuse for failing to lead.

(IMO, as ever)

[drathzel]

:rofl:

- send the duck back because it is not cooked enough to their taste
- mention often that their Death by Chocolate dessert is nowhere near as good as the BTC experience
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:






I get the most satisfaction out of seeing Beginners smile and come back enthused.



not to sound incredibly cheesy or anything but this is the reason i started to taxi. One night i was standing waiting to pounce on my next victim when a beginner (who had been coming for a few weeks) caught my eye, they were hovering behind me with that look that i often get when wanting to dance with someone who i feel is a lot better than myself, i gave them a huge smile and they came over and asked me to dance. when i accepted the smile on their face was sooo huge, this remained in place the whole dance and made me feel fab. Strange thing is altho it wasn't one of those dance (and we all have them) it was still a dance that will remain in my memory when all the other dances fade!!

(and yes, i just realised that i am off thread but hey!!!)

:hug:

[Katie]

I realised that there was only one person with whom I didn't 'think' - I just switch off and have very little idea of why I follow - consciously anyway - Amir.


:yeah: Me too! Whenever i've danced with Amir, I come off the floor thinking "Did I just do that?" I now realise it's because of the technique you just explained - following the girl after leading a move almost guarantees no mistakes (and I thought it was me that was following well :blush: :wink: ). Seriously though, when I helped Amir with a tango class before, guys and girls were coming up to me during the class asking me how to do a tango flick thingy with a lunge, I blushed and said that I didn't know (felt a little stupid) - and that actually it was my first time too; the reason I could do it was down to his incredible lead! :clap: :worthy:

[Katie]

DavidB's distinction is helpful as I didn't think of "active followers" or "passive followers" before. I've noticed that female west coast dancers are active followers as they are very stylistic and they are probably passive in the sense that they can follow incredibly well too! :worthy:

Obviously a bit of both is ideal, but what do guys prefer: active or passive following? I know that when i'm tired and a guy i've never danced with before asks me, and its a thump thump tune, I passively follow (normally I like to put something into a dance but it doesn't always work :blush: ) and he then says at the end that was great! :confused: For me, it wasn't that, strange eh!

I think there should be more classes emphasising following as i've heard plenty of men say that they didn't actually lead the dance, they were in fact following the lady :rofl: :rofl:

[David Bailey]

Dreamstate.............
L - Would you like fish tonight?
F - Oooh you must have read my mind
L - Flame grilled?
F - Amazing! that's just the way I like it
L - with lemon butter dressing?
F - Now your really talking my language
L & F (same time) Chablis? :drool:
And Garlic! :D :D :whistle:

[DavidB]

I've noticed that female west coast dancers are active followers as they are very stylistic and they are probably passive in the sense that they can follow incredibly well too!WCS is slightly different because there are times when the man is leading, and times when he isn't. It is fairly standardised, and this helps the good ladies to know when to switch.

In MJ you don't get this. The lead can be almost constant, and the 'not leading' can happen at any time. So the switch can't be assumed. I'm still getting used to this idea. At the moment it seems to be different depending on the lady. It is a bit like doing musical interpretation by learning each song off by heart.

David

[Divissima]

Apologies for backtracking a little to earlier in the thread....
Following in a dream-like state, that's where it's at. :drool: I just love dances like that. It doesn't happen everytime, but that's what makes them so special.I agree, this kind of connection is my definition of dancing nirvana. Elusive, but it can be almost euphoric when you experience it. Every now and again, I have a night (or Sunday afternoon) when I can really connect to the lead and disengage the conscious mind. I need to work on my active following, as defined by DavidB, and switching between them. If I'm connecting to the lead in this way, I find that even a split-second of conscious thought disrupts the whole thing - brain goes from delicious flow to *arg, does not compute* - but what a skill it would be to be able to switch between passive and active following.

[Trish]

L - How about fish?
F - Yes, a nice juicy steak sounds great
L - I fancy something different, like monkfish poached in milk, asparagus tips, with a Hollandaise sauce on the side.
F - Yes, a nice rare steak, with chips & mushy peas sounds great.
L - What do you want to drink? A nice light chardonnay?
F - Beer - thats a great idea.

2 minutes later they are having paella, and enjoying it, but then the Maitre'd walks over...
MD - I'm a world renowned expert in all types of food, and therefore most know far more than you. You are not allowed to enjoy food that has no foundation. I suggest a deep fried breeze block, with a side order of gravel, and washed down with some quick drying cement.
L - [confused] But that isn't food. I thought you said you were an expert.
MD - Of course I'm an expert. Surely you have heard of me? Arlene...?


:rofl: :clap: Excellent!!!

[DavidB]

With the really good ladies, you get 'active' followers and 'passive' followers.A couple of people have suggested to me that this distinction is a bit limiting, and that there are other ways of following. So just to clarify things, I was only talking in relation to Dreamstate/flow, and one opposite way of following that is still good.

There are lots of other ways of following, and plenty of skills involved. Maybe someone who can follow would be better to provide the details. All I can comment on is how it affects the leading.

David

[Trish]

I realised that there was only one person with whom I didn't 'think' - I just switch off and have very little idea of why I follow - consciously anyway - Amir. I wondered if this is part-way explained by his teaching at Jango last week, when he said that he leads a move, allows the woman to follow and then follows her. It seems to me that this way of leading means that there is virtually no chance of the woman messing up - and so no fear of missing a lead - and a wonderfully 'safe' dance.


I'm not sure I get this. Surely this can only happen if the lady is leading? If you are a "passive" follower, he'd have nothing to follow would he? Although I guess if you are "active", he might do. Am I completely misunderstanding this? Unfortunately I haven't had the pleasure of dancing with Amir (or even seeing him dance :tears: ), so I'm not sure really what this means. Can someone enlighten me please?

[Divissima]

I'm not sure I get this. Surely this can only happen if the lady is leading? If you are a "passive" follower, he'd have nothing to follow would he? Although I guess if you are "active", he might do. Am I completely misunderstanding this? Unfortunately I haven't had the pleasure of dancing with Amir (or even seeing him dance :tears: ), so I'm not sure really what this means. Can someone enlighten me please?Hmmm... I can give it a go.

I think what Amir was saying was that the lead should instigate the movement (so move together with direction and distance to travel and any other features), the follower (however they are following - actively or passively for want of other terminology) follows and then the lead adjusts his next move to what the follower has done (for example if the follower hasn't quite ended up where the lead intended). In the context of the lesson Amir was teaching it made a lot more sense (honest) and he did say that it was a technique perhaps more suited to Argentinian tango where the dynamic between lead and follow is slightly different from MJ.

[Feelingpink]

I'm not sure I get this. Surely this can only happen if the lady is leading? If you are a "passive" follower, he'd have nothing to follow would he? Although I guess if you are "active", he might do. Am I completely misunderstanding this? Unfortunately I haven't had the pleasure of dancing with Amir (or even seeing him dance :tears: ), so I'm not sure really what this means. Can someone enlighten me please?

I'll try to explain in the context of something Amir taught recently and if I've misunderstood, perhaps someone else can chip in. If the guy wants to do a move where he and his partner turn 90 degrees from where they started, he might lead this move but realise when his partner starts to step that she is only going to go some of the way round, so instead of manhandling her to "make" the 90 degrees, he realises what is happening and accepts that they're only going to get to 60 degrees and follows her there. The woman feels as if she's followed the move (and to some extent, she has) and they've made a lovely smooth 60 degree turn together.

Does that make sense?

[spindr]

The man expresses an intention, the lady follows and the man follows the lady.

------

The demonstration that I've seen of this has been in Argentine Tango, where the man expresses an intention to move forwards (using frame, chest, slight lean, etc.).
*Then* the lady follows and moves her leg backwards.
*After* the lady moves, the man steps in to the vacated space -- following the lady.
Then the lady completes her step.
Then the man completes his step fractionally after the lady's step.

Obviously, the man has to wait for the lady to yield her space, before he can use it -- otherwise shinpads become necessary.

-----

Don't know quite how applicable it is to a dance style that's less open -- although I was always taught (in ballroom) that the man should follow after the woman -- at least if she starts travelling when spinning, but more from a semi-safety view.

Certainly if we're both spinning, I'll tend to try to complete the rotation first so I can be ready "to catch" -- at least while I'm unsure of how well my partner can spin.

SpinDr.

[Andreas]

... or in many cases:

L: "¿Cuándo está el tren siguiente a ParÃ*s?"
F: "????????????!"

:rofl: :rofl: classic

[Andreas]

Being a bit more serious.

With the really good ladies, you get 'active' followers and 'passive' followers. (If you can think of a better description then please tell me.)

The 'Dreamstate' Feelingpink talks about is a 'passive' follower. She has absolutely no preconceptions about what you are going to lead, or what she is going to do. The leader can then be as creative as he wants to be. I've seen this taken to its extreme by some lambada dancers where the lady is almost like a rag doll. The first stage I notice is when the lady keeps going until you stop her. As soon as she is doing this, you can just redirect her momentum to lead her.

An 'active' follower is always trying to add something to the dance. As a leader you have to be watching all the time so that you let her finish what she is doing. But as the dance is less about preserving her momentum, it becomes easier to change the speed of the dance.

I am not saying one is better than the other - the ability to do both is probably the ideal. Some of the best dances I've had have been when it keeps changing from one to the other. It depends on the music as well. Some songs just suit a particular way of dancing.

Nice thread - it has given me something to think about.

David

From a lead point of view, I think, the major difference is in using 'stops' or strong leads to create pauses or slow down the dance versus 'bungee'. I noticed that I tend to slow the other person down through bungee effect if she follows (what you call) passively as I do want to preserve the momentum. Whereas in the other case the lead is much more direct/determined and there is little doubt about what I am asking for :D

While that dreamstate is definitely also a matter of dance partner, to a great part it definitely depends on the music, as well. Neither of those factors alone can generate it, I believe.

Very good explanation there, David! :flower:

[Magic Hans]

I never get the beginners class 100% right. :tears: Even 90% right would be an improvement - forgetting moves, adding in bits, getting the timing wrong, skipping a return, adding in a return, putting in a double spin instead of a single, stepping in instead of out, leading the lady to the wrong place, moving to the wrong place, catching with the wrong hand, not letting go of the right hand,...

*sigh*:( just give me freestyle where I can make these mistakes look planned :wink:

I know what you mean!! For my part, I put it down to either:

a) my inability to listen .... although I can be really good at this! honest, even though I'm a bloke!
b) the ease at which I forget - very plausible
d) my objection to be constrained (to a routine)- [did I forget c)?] :whistle:

Ian

[curious]

From a lead point of view, I think, the major difference is in using 'stops' or strong leads to create pauses or slow down the dance versus 'bungee'. I noticed that I tend to slow the other person down through bungee effect if she follows (what you call) passively as I do want to preserve the momentum. Whereas in the other case the lead is much more direct/determined and there is little doubt about what I am asking for :D :yeah:
The elasticity sounds a bit like WCS.



While that dreamstate is definitely also a matter of dance partner, to a great part it definitely depends on the music, as well. Neither of those factors alone can generate it, I believe.IMHO the passive bit comes from dancing regularly with people, and is great if you want to dance and chat. What's really great for me is when you build up a level of awareness with a regular partner that allows you both to seamlessly switch between active and passive without thinking about it. The music, of course, can set the scene for a fantastic dance, but with the right partner you can always get to the dreamstate. :whistle: :blush:

[Trish]

Thanks Divissima and Feeling Pink

That makes it clearer, I see what you mean. I think I sometimes do this when I'm leading, as it's easier than dragging some poor woman around against her will when she's not quite finished the move in the position you expect her to. I don't think I really make a big thing of it, but it certainly helps the flow of things. It especially seems to be the case when you've got a follower who likes to step slightly to the side every time - although you do sometimes end up going round in circles because of it! I can certainly see it's necessary in Argentine Tango from what I've seen of it, otherwise you'd probably be covered in bruises! I'm hopefully going to start Ballroom lessons soon, so I'll have more of an idea then whether it applies to that as well.

Nice thread, some really interesting stuff here! I'm hoping to get some lovely "dreamstate" dancing at Camber next month - I think the combination of lovely music, great dancers and no sleep really helps!!

[Rhythm King]

Sorry, this is a bit of an essay. . .

Following on from discussion with some ladies recently, I’ve noticed great variations in my lead and follow with certain dancers. Obviously there are the usual variations in my lead/style/timing, which can vary, amongst other things, according to my mood, fatigue, liking (or disliking) the particular track, and whether or not I’m in awe of my partner, which can actually be a big deal. I also have a terrible habit of changing my mind at short notice, depending on how I feel the dance is going, or suddenly hearing something in the music. You may rest assured that I am my own harshest critic in these respects.
But it is the differences in following, from people with whom I may dance fairly frequently, that are my topic. I sometimes find I need a couple of dances to “shake down� and settle on a mutually satisfying lead and follow. Me getting used to her, her getting used to me. I consider this fairly normal.
Have leaders noticed though, that sometimes someone they are used to dancing with, is acting in a completely different style? This takes two forms for me. Firstly, where a lady has been dancing with, for example a particularly bouncy, strong, “Cerocy� leader, and takes a while to calm down to something smoother and more flowing (with less anticipation :wink: ). (And I’d be the first to admit to having been one of those strong-leading Ceroc Intermediate move-hounds until I learned better :blush: ) Otherwise, I see someone dancing with one of the pantheon of Dance Gods (note not using the “E� word today :whistle: ) and think, “Hmm, I’d like to dance with her�. It then occurs to me that whilst she may have been totally under the spell and fabulous lead of said D-G, when she then graces me with the next dance, she appears to have come with certain preconceptions of how she’s going to dance with me and follow my lead. I.E. she’ll switch off and follow perfectly in a dream state with him, but is intent on doing her own thing with me, perhaps missing some of the more subtle leads, or anticipating. I then get flustered and feel that perhaps I’m not giving my partner the best experience. I’m specifically not referring to active following here, which is a different thing entirely.
Please don’t take offence followers, I’m not pointing the finger at anyone in particular, or being critical of you, I’m just wondering if other leaders have similar experiences, or can comment/advise.

R-K :flower:

(goes and hides under a rock in case of flaming)

[David Bailey]

whether or not I’m in awe of my partner, which can actually be a big deal.
:yeah: totally - sometimes with topflight dancers, it's just superb, and sometimes you find yourself falling over your and her feet - and sometimes both in the same dance. Trying too hard to impress your partner with your wonderful moves is usually the best way to foot-falling-over-ville...

"Relaxed focussing" is just the hardest thing to do, isn't it?

[Mary]

"Relaxed focussing" is just the hardest thing to do, isn't it?


:yeah: :yeah:

M

[MartinHarper]

Going back to this technique of lead, then follow, then follow the follow...
One problem I find is that this approach sometimes gets me into positions or places that I don't know any exits for. I guess this is one advantage that the likes of Amir have: they know so many moves, consciously or unconsciously, that it'd be very rare for the ladies to get them into situations they can't find a way out of.

[Gary]

Going back to this technique of lead, then follow, then follow the follow...
Also along this line: Does anyone know any good exercises for teaching/learning this technique? It's something which (I think) I've started to do, but I'd like to learn it better/faster, and eventually like to be able to help other folks to do it.

[Yogi_Bear]

Hmmm... I can give it a go.

I think what Amir was saying was that the lead should instigate the movement (so move together with direction and distance to travel and any other features), the follower (however they are following - actively or passively for want of other terminology) follows and then the lead adjusts his next move to what the follower has done (for example if the follower hasn't quite ended up where the lead intended). In the context of the lesson Amir was teaching it made a lot more sense (honest) and he did say that it was a technique perhaps more suited to Argentinian tango where the dynamic between lead and follow is slightly different from MJ.
No, this makes a lot of sense, and don't most reasonably experienced leaders act this way anyhow? I usually try not to think in terms of leading moves but instead co-operating in a flow of movement - I think someone else commented similarly. It makes sense for the leader to adjust their movements according to how the follower responds to the lead. This may be especially true where the lead has been weak or ambiguous - the follower might then decide to take the initiative and the leader will follow...or am I assuming too much?

[David Bailey]

No, this makes a lot of sense, and don't most reasonably experienced leaders act this way anyhow? I usually try not to think in terms of leading moves but instead co-operating in a flow of movement - I think someone else commented similarly. It makes sense for the leader to adjust their movements according to how the follower responds to the lead. This may be especially true where the lead has been weak or ambiguous - the follower might then decide to take the initiative and the leader will follow...or am I assuming too much?
:clap: Yay, I finallly understood this whole lead-follow-follow thing. That's a great explanation, thanks Yogi_Bear. Whew, I was getting worried there...

Yes, of course, the leader should adjust the moves depending on the follower's actions - in fact, I don't usually plan moves in advance, I just wait to see where we are at a particular point, handholds and positions, then do a move that works well from that position. I mean, I have a vague idea at the start of the track about the type of moves I'll do, based on the music and the follower, especially if she has favourites, but when/where to do them depends on so many factors, I don't even bother to think ahead too much nowdays - probably just getting lazier... (perhaps I should do competitions...!).

[David Bailey]

One problem I find is that this approach sometimes gets me into positions or places that I don't know any exits for.
If in doubt; stop, make it look like a deliberate pause, stand still and wiggle, think frantically whilst looking calm, then do a dramatic fast exit move. Works for me every time :)

[JamesGeary]

Is this dreamstate any different from being bored, yet too lazy to think of anything else?

[Banana Man]

The 'Dreamstate' Feelingpink talks about is a 'passive' follower. She has absolutely no preconceptions about what you are going to lead, or what she is going to do. The leader can then be as creative as he wants to be. I've seen this taken to its extreme by some lambada dancers where the lady is almost like a rag doll. The first stage I notice is when the lady keeps going until you stop her. As soon as she is doing this, you can just redirect her momentum to lead her.

Makes sense to me but how passive can a follower be if you dance regularly together? I've been trying to work out whether dancing regularly leads to predictibility, or does it increase awareness and connection and allow you to experiment more and try new things? Or maybe it's just that the distinction between leader and follower blurs! :confused: Any thoughts?



I am not saying one is better than the other - the ability to do both is probably the ideal. Some of the best dances I've had have been when it keeps changing from one to the other. It depends on the music as well. Some songs just suit a particular way of dancing.

:yeah:

[Feelingpink]

Is this dreamstate any different from being bored, yet too lazy to think of anything else?

It feels very different. If I don't have an inspiring lead, I can be bored but still aware of the leader's signals that are prompting me to move in certain ways (and yes, I could be lazy in not responding in a more active way). With the dreamstate, I'm not really aware of the leader's signals in a conscious way - movement somehow just happens, almost by osmosis. (I know that this isn't true in reality - it just feels like it).

[Feelingpink]

Going back to this technique of lead, then follow, then follow the follow...
One problem I find is that this approach sometimes gets me into positions or places that I don't know any exits for. I guess this is one advantage that the likes of Amir have: they know so many moves, consciously or unconsciously, that it'd be very rare for the ladies to get them into situations they can't find a way out of.

This is your opportunity to invent one! And if you're still feeling completely lost, sometimes you can just look at your partner with a sheepish smile and let them find their own way out. :wink: