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El Salsero Gringo
15th-April-2005, 06:06 PM
I just heard an extremely odd story, from someone I trust and know well: that a friend of theirs who volunteered for a free massage from someone purporting to be some kind of official visiting "Massage Therapist" at the Masked Ball at Walthamstow is now being pestered by the Scientologists as a result.

Allegedly, the same group or person will be at Ashtons tonight.

I don't normally go in for third-hand stories, but that's just too wierd. Can anyone shed any kind of light on this?

(I heard that the massage was pants, too.)

Trousers
15th-April-2005, 06:12 PM
The Jive Aces are Scientologists also and normally when they travel their G/F's and buddies go too. These extra's can sometimes be seen circulating and taking names for the Jive Aces Mailing list.
When you get your first shot you also get one from the Scientologists - But say No Ta and it stops. Very good source for that info.
So tell them to say no thanks ESG, it should stop them.

El Salsero Gringo
15th-April-2005, 06:29 PM
Well well, that *is* interesting. http://jiveaces.scientology.org does indeed take you directly to the Jive Aces website, and there does appear to be an official link between the Church of Scientology and the Jive Aces.

I don't want to over-react, but I confess that my hackles would start to rise if a social event like a Ceroc night were to be used as an opportunity to proselytise by *any* religious group, especially one with such a very poor reputation as the CoS.

lindyloo
15th-April-2005, 07:41 PM
Mmmm, I didn't know anything about this, but like you I will not be happy if it's happening at Ashton's. Please let me know and I'll be keeping my eyes open tonight

Gadget
15th-April-2005, 09:08 PM
I don't want to over-react, but I confess that my hackles would start to rise if a social event like a Ceroc night were to be used as an opportunity to proselytise by *any* religious group, especially one with such a very poor reputation as the CoS.They are a very good jive band (and excelent entertainers). To be honest the only reason I know about their link with the scientologists is that there was a table with leaflets next to a table with their promotional stuff on it. (Not at a Ceroc venue) Nice guys, good dancers too. They don't push the cult thing as far as I have seen.

Lynn
15th-April-2005, 10:25 PM
Well well, that *is* interesting. http://jiveaces.scientology.org does indeed take you directly to the Jive Aces website, and there does appear to be an official link between the Church of Scientology and the Jive Aces. Not sure about 'official', I think its more they are saying this is what they believe and here is more info sort of thing. I teach a uni course on New Religious Movements, though I haven't given any lectures on this one.


I don't want to over-react, but I confess that my hackles would start to rise if a social event like a Ceroc night were to be used as an opportunity to proselytise by *any* religious group, especially one with such a very poor reputation as the CoS. I agree if its a general night - though I don't have any problems with it being the other way round - ie a church group using modern jive as a social evening activity. But if its in 'neutral territory' then I don't think it would be appropriate. Its one thing an group like this having links on their website, but I don't think they should be using their dance contacts at venues where they perform as a potential 'recruiting ground'. Putting your name down for an email list about the band, then getting info from the Scientologists - which you haven't signed up for, is not good practice.

DangerousCurves
15th-April-2005, 11:08 PM
To be fair to the "Jive Aces" I've seen them live 3 times, once at a venue run by a friend where I chatted to the band a lot at the beginning and the end of the evening - and never once have I heard or seen them talk about their beliefs, offer people scientology leaflets or try to recruit anyone to any religious group. Instead they were funny, charming, modest and 100% enthusiastic about their music and entertaining their audience.

If you visit their web-site, and they talk about their religious beliefs there - Well, they are being upfront about something deeply important to them - and everyone has the right to worship as they personally choose.

cerocmetro
16th-April-2005, 05:15 AM
I just heard an extremely odd story, from someone I trust and know well: that a friend of theirs who volunteered for a free massage from someone purporting to be some kind of official visiting "Massage Therapist" at the Masked Ball at Walthamstow is now being pestered by the Scientologists as a result.

Allegedly, the same group or person will be at Ashtons tonight.

I don't normally go in for third-hand stories, but that's just too wierd. Can anyone shed any kind of light on this?

(I heard that the massage was pants, too.)

All I can say is that the band have a lady who deals with bookings. I think I spoke to her at the Masked Ball and yes she talked about a massage and putting flyers out for their videos. There was nothing mentioned about religious activities.

I would also add that I have not met the JA's before but found them charming, very professional and a great band. I will certainly use them again.

Adam

El Salsero Gringo
16th-April-2005, 11:35 AM
The Jive Aces were their usual excellent selves last night, and I very much enjoyed dancing to their music.

On the other matter, I largely agree with Lynn. I wish every success to those who openly hold Ceroc nights for the benefit of a charitable or religious organisation, knowing full well that it's done openly and without concealment.

As for last night, no one was 'pushing' anything to me, at least. There was plenty of mention of Dianetics and Scientology in the Jive Aces literature, and the "free massages" that were on offer were heavily signed as an "Assist", the name given by the Scientologists to a technique they believe heals and repairs the recipient (as far as I can tell.)

I confess I don't feel entirely comfortable about it, but that's largely because of the poor reputation in some quarters that CoS have surrounding their recruitment tactics. If the band were all committed Buddhists, and I was offered a particular kind of Indian head massage along with the option to find out more about Buddhism, then I think I'd feel different. Perhaps that makes me guilty of double standards.

As to whether the Jive Aces have any "official" link with Scientology: Given that http://jiveaces.scientology.org is a subdomain of scientology.org which is run by the CoS, to have that linked to the Jive Aces website is a de-facto official endorsement.

lindyloo
16th-April-2005, 12:29 PM
I would also add that I have not met the JA's before but found them charming, very professional and a great band. I will certainly use them again.

Adam


I totally agree with the above.

They did a fantastic set last night. They are great guys very friendly and very professional. There was no mention of any religious beliefs by anyone all night.

I really like them so much so that I have booked them for a Wednesday night also in May

David Bailey
16th-April-2005, 12:41 PM
Oh, how can you possibly diss a religion that has such towering intellects as Demi Moore, Tom Cruise and of course John Travolta as adherents? Everyone knows "Battlefield Earth" was a classic film, a titan, a world-bestriding err something or other.

Oh wait, it's not a religion, is it, it's a lifestyle choice. :whistle:

I have to admit, I quite like the idea of Secret Cults Infiltrating Ceroc, maybe I should start my own. It's the whole love-bombing thing that I like, call me crazy...

Zebra Woman
16th-April-2005, 02:06 PM
I totally agree with the above.

They did a fantastic set last night. They are great guys very friendly and very professional. There was no mention of any religious beliefs by anyone all night.

I really like them so much so that I have booked them for a Wednesday night also in May

Agree, I think they played a great set too :clap: (although as ever a couple of songs were way too fast for me :sick: )

I knew they were scientologists. IMO so long as they keep it to themselves on a dance night it doesn't bother me. I danced with Ken and Vince, both lovely smiley guys and not a hint of any religious chat.

ZW :flower:

bobgadjet
16th-April-2005, 03:25 PM
I really like them so much so that I have booked them for a Wednesday night also in May
WICKED :clap::clap::clap::clap:

Can we get a late finish for that night perhaps ? :hug::flower:

curious
16th-April-2005, 05:20 PM
SNIP

I have to admit, I quite like the idea of Secret Cults Infiltrating Ceroc, maybe I should start my own. It's the whole love-bombing thing that I like, call me crazy...

funny, I thought Ceroc was a cult :confused: :rolleyes:

bigdjiver
17th-April-2005, 10:15 AM
BTW
I used to read a lot of "pulp" science fiction. One magazine had a story about a knitting circle that was struggling for membership, so a comittee member asked her husband to help. He redrafted the constitutuion to encourage growth and membership retention. It drew heavily on the Bibles instructions to the faithful.

To his horror the knitting circle grew so fast, expanding into other areas, that it was becoming the major power in the world.

Science fiction or science fantasy, I know of at least one other probable reader of the piece. L Ron Hubbard, founder of Scientology, had a story in the same issue.

----
FWIW

Much later on I was looking for moonlighting opportunities. Someone asked me if I was interested in making up some electrical devices. I looked at the circuit, and saw that it was a crude device for measuring skin resistance, often touted as a lie detector. I was told it was for the Church of Scientology, and was used to determine if its members were "clear". I declined. (My wife and I took evening jobs instead in Bowling alley and a Dance hall, which is where I obtained my level of respect for some management in the entertainment industry, and later my real level of respect for the Ceroc ethos.)

stewart38
19th-April-2005, 10:00 AM
I totally agree with the above.

They did a fantastic set last night. They are great guys very friendly and very professional. There was no mention of any religious beliefs by anyone all night.

I really like them so much so that I have booked them for a Wednesday night also in May


I think they have got better and better, some tracks i 'forgot' it was band playing

I just hope we are not all being brain washed but i do want to have their babies

Zebra Woman
19th-April-2005, 10:42 AM
I think they have got better and better, some tracks i 'forgot' it was band playing


?? :confused:

Is that a compliment?

IMO A good band playing a great track sounds and feels far better than the CD version. I cannot imagine being so lost in the music that I forgot that the band was a band playing....but you never know there's always a first time.

At the end of 'Just a Gigolo' for example when the Jive Aces go:

'............Ain't nobody.....ain't nobba..a..ady.....AIN'T NO BAADY....ain't nobody ( etc.etc.etc)...ain't no..ba...ady ......No body cares for me'.

I know there's time for a drink , a chat, a toilet trip, a wash and change of clothes ( if I'm not dancing to it) :really: , and they'll still be at it when I get back :wink:


Quite unlike the Louis Prima version don't you think?

stewart38
19th-April-2005, 11:10 AM
Is that a compliment?




Yes ! and I've change my mind to, two first !

6 months ago i wouldnt want a ban at an event but now I dont mind !

CJ
19th-April-2005, 12:15 PM
I teach a uni course on New Religious Movements, though I haven't given any lectures on this one.


Have you ever lectured on my Grandfather??

He was a right Catholic *****.

:blush: sorry, someone get it back on thread quick....

El Salsero Gringo
20th-April-2005, 10:03 AM
:blush: sorry, someone get it back on thread quick....OK.

It's very difficult to find a good word about CoS, at least on the internet:

The Fishman Affidavit (http://www.xs4all.nl/~kspaink/fishman/home.html)
Why are they dead? (http://www.whyaretheydead.net/)
The Jive Aces in action (http://www.scientology-lies.com/pickets/copenhagen/000304catarina.html)

MartinHarper
20th-April-2005, 10:56 AM
I confess I don't feel entirely comfortable about it, but that's largely because of the poor reputation in some quarters that CoS have surrounding their recruitment tactics.

Aye. The Scientology mention on their flyers and such just tipped the balance against me buying a CD. It's a shame, because they are a good band.

Clive Long
20th-April-2005, 11:28 AM
Aye. The Scientology mention on their flyers and such just tipped the balance against me buying a CD. It's a shame, because they are a good band.

Christian Science may (a small word that has caused many misunderstandings) be empty-headed piffle or the answer to everything or something in between. However, it seems the Jive Aces are open about CS and haven't pushed it down my throat or tried to manipulate me to attend some meeting where I will suddenly be struck by some divine revelation. I feel their openess about their beliefs is at about the right level for me.

Personally I think Christian Science is towards the piffle end of the scale mainly because it is a religion, rather than any particularly outlandish beliefs held by them - sorry if that offends anyone. Seven years of a church schools followed by a secondary school headed by two rampant and vindictive born-again Christians have rather tainted my view on such matters. I tend to judge people by their actions rather than their claims about the correctness of their world view.

Think this thread is becoming more a "chit-chat" than a social events topic (sorry, guilty).

Clive

Lynn
20th-April-2005, 11:36 AM
Christian Science may (a small word that has caused many misunderstandings) be empty-headed piffle or the answer to everything or something in between. However, it seems the Jive Aces are open about CS and haven't pushed it down my throat or tried to manipulate me to attend some meeting where I will suddenly be struck by some divine revelation Well the Jive Aces wouldn't be pushing Christian Science because they are Scientologists! Which is a totally different movement (Christian Science follows the teachings of Mary Baker Eddy, the Church of Scientology is based on the teaching of L Ron Hubbard). But I know what you meant (and its an easy mistake to make!).

Clive Long
20th-April-2005, 11:44 AM
Well the Jive Aces wouldn't be pushing Christian Science because they are Scientologists! Which is a totally different movement (Christian Science follows the teachings of Mary Baker Eddy, the Church of Scientology is based on the teaching of L Ron Hubbard). But I know what you meant (and its an easy mistake to make!).

Thank-you for clarifying that. I associate CS with people who don't believe in medical operations and blood transfusions. Maybe I have ingested popular misunderstandings and am guilty of as much prejudice as I claim to abhor :rolleyes:

Clive

El Salsero Gringo
20th-April-2005, 12:42 PM
Scientology has nothing whatsoever to do with Christianity. Anyone who is interested to what it *is* about could do worse than scan through a Google search for "Scientology" to get a range of opinions.

With the benefit of a few days hindsight, I am even more disturbed by the fact that religious treatments ("Assists", or "massages" to remove "negativity") were being carried out at Ceroc dance nights, and with the consent of the venue operator(s). Either they knew full-well the agenda behind these treatments and permitted them to take place - or were ignorant of what was going on. Both possibilities frighten me.

It's clearly not my place to criticize what venue operators do or don't permit at their venues, but I cannot hide the fact the fact that I don't like it.

Tessalicious
22nd-April-2005, 02:50 PM
Thank-you for clarifying that. I associate CS with people who don't believe in medical operations and blood transfusions. Maybe I have ingested popular misunderstandings and am guilty of as much prejudice as I claim to abhor :rolleyes:

Clive

You're right, Christian Scientists do have beliefs against medical procedures, for the simple reason that they believe that everyone is perfect and therefore can't be ill, but they're also very different from the Scientologists because they don't try to convert - I have CS friends and they agree to disagree with me on medical research issues. They're also some of the loveliest people you could ever wish to meet - after all, why would they be bitchy when everyone and everything is perfect (a great philosophy even if the religious stuff is bizarre)?

And, as far as the Scientologists' 'Assist' treatment business goes, you can always take advantage of the massage and not sign up (or better still you could get a free massage from me - Ceroc is the only cult I try to convert people to!).:waycool:

Tess

El Salsero Gringo
22nd-April-2005, 05:57 PM
And, as far as the Scientologists' 'Assist' treatment business goes, you can always take advantage of the massage and not sign upIf they were open and up-front about it being a religious thing then there would be no problem. But they're not.

Besides which, as I said in my first post, I heard their massage wasn't so hot, so you probably wouldn't want to bother, at least not a second time.

lindyloo
22nd-April-2005, 10:58 PM
With the benefit of a few days hindsight, I am even more disturbed by the fact that religious treatments ("Assists", or "massages" to remove "negativity") were being carried out at Ceroc dance nights, and with the consent of the venue operator(s). Either they knew full-well the agenda behind these treatments and permitted them to take place - or were ignorant of what was going on. Both possibilities frighten me.

It's clearly not my place to criticize what venue operators do or don't permit at their venues, but I cannot hide the fact the fact that I don't like it.


The girls offered FREE 10 minute massages for no other reason that they love helping people. I watched them carefully and spoke to a few people who had had the massages. These people were not spoken to with any "beliefs" and just enjoyed the massage. I have no problem with this as the organiser of this event.
Had people been persuaded to join any organisation I woul have stopped them.

I think everyone is reading much more into the fact that the JA are Scientologists than is necessary. They are entitled to their beliefs, they don't push them on anyone and they were there just to entertain which is what they love doing

El Salsero Gringo
23rd-April-2005, 11:26 AM
The girls offered FREE 10 minute massages for no other reason that they love helping people.
Quite right.

And the Scientologists offer FREE 10 minute "personality tests" at their recruitment centre on Tottenham Court Road for no other reason than they love helping people there too.

Did you know the moon is made of cream-cheese? No really, it is.

David Bailey
23rd-April-2005, 05:48 PM
Did you know the moon is made of cream-cheese? No really, it is.
I have to admit, I didn't know that, but my brain isn't the size of a planet.

But I also feel a leetle bit uncomfortable about any religious association being officially sanctioned for recruitment at a Ceroc venue. And let's face it, it is a recruitment / advertising exercise, however gentle and unassuming it is. Would "laying on hands" from an evangelical Christian association be allowed if the band playing happened to believe in that? Whether or not they're a great band / great people, isn't relevant to that; I'm sure they are both, but that's not the point.

To quote a decent SF writer, TANSTAAFL (or, in this case, TANSTAAFM).

Having said that, I've not encountered the massage thing, so I don't know whether they're any good or not :) But I'd definitely appreciate a shoulder rub right now... :whistle:

Barry Shnikov
5th-January-2006, 12:44 AM
I don't want to over-react, but I confess that my hackles would start to rise if a social event like a Ceroc night were to be used as an opportunity to proselytise by *any* religious group, especially one with such a very poor reputation as the CoS.

I for one deny that Scientology is a religion at all. I am a thoroughgoing atheist, but the idiotic tenets of Scientology give even established religion a bad name.

Certainly its efforts to be recognised as a church in the UK and also, IIRC, in Germany, failed dismally.

Barry Shnikov
5th-January-2006, 12:49 AM
I looked at the circuit, and saw that it was a crude device for measuring skin resistance, often touted as a lie detector. I was told it was for the Church of Scientology, and was used to determine if its members were "clear".

Ah, yes, the incredible versatility of the Wheatstone bridge! Astonishing how much you can tell from watching the dials wiggle.

Barry Shnikov
5th-January-2006, 12:55 AM
...the teaching of L Ron Hubbard

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

>wipes tears from eyes<

O, I do like a good laugh.


For those who are interested, try:

http://www.skepdic.com/dianetic.html

or

http://http://www.scientology-lies.com/faq/teachings/aliens.html

stewart38
5th-January-2006, 11:35 AM
I for one deny that Scientology is a religion at all. I am a thoroughgoing atheist, but the idiotic tenets of Scientology give even established religion a bad name.

Certainly its efforts to be recognised as a church in the UK and also, IIRC, in Germany, failed dismally.

what do you define as a religion then ?

Barry Shnikov
5th-January-2006, 11:44 AM
what do you define as a religion then ?

Ha. Mrs Shnikov never raised no children dumb enough to answer that question.

However, I can be fairly confident that it would not include a world view that claims that earth was populated by the life-forces of billions of executed aliens 75 million years ago simply because some science fiction writer conjured the story out of thin air.

I don't know if the case report is available and can be googled but, as stated earlier, the English High Court rejected the Scientologists' application to be registered as a charity on the grounds that it was a church and and religion.

Lynn
5th-January-2006, 11:48 AM
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

>wipes tears from eyes<

O, I do like a good laugh.Sorry, not getting the joke - are you trying to say that he had nothing to do with Scientology?

Or just mocking in general? (I don't agree with Scientology but I can think of a more useful response than simply mocking.)

stewart38
5th-January-2006, 11:52 AM
Ha. Mrs Shnikov never raised no children dumb enough to answer that question.

However, I can be fairly confident that it would not include a world view that claims that earth was populated by the life-forces of billions of executed aliens 75 million years ago simply because some science fiction writer conjured the story out of thin air.

I don't know if the case report is available and can be googled but, as stated earlier, the English High Court rejected the Scientologists' application to be registered as a charity on the grounds that it was a church and and religion.

So the defintion of religion must include a 'world view'

It also has to accepted by the 'High Court' or is it excepted ?

TiggsTours
5th-January-2006, 12:22 PM
Well well, that *is* interesting. http://jiveaces.scientology.org does indeed take you directly to the Jive Aces website, and there does appear to be an official link between the Church of Scientology and the Jive Aces.

I don't want to over-react, but I confess that my hackles would start to rise if a social event like a Ceroc night were to be used as an opportunity to proselytise by *any* religious group, especially one with such a very poor reputation as the CoS.
The Jive Aces are indeed scientologists, and have plenty of information about this all over all their leaflets. However, I have seen them play plenty of times, at a number of events, and also been within a group socialising with them during their breaks. I have never once witnessed them talking to anyone about their beliefs.

I, personally, would find my hackles start to rise far more if I thought Ceroc, or any organisation I was involved with, discriminated against anyone because of their beliefs, or anything else.

I don't agree with scientology, and was once approached by a group of scientologists when I was about 13 years old, they only just stopped sending me their literature, after always being ignored, about 3 years ago! I do, however, feel that, if they (being anybody, of any religion) are not trying to cram it down my throat, and convert me when I'm out minding my own business, then I don't care what their religious persuassion is!

I was at Ashtons last night, I certainly didn't see anyone hassling anyone to join their strange religious cult, or even giving anyone a massage!

bobgadjet
5th-January-2006, 12:28 PM
?? :confused:

Is that a compliment?

IMO A good band playing a great track sounds and feels far better than the CD version. I cannot imagine being so lost in the music that I forgot that the band was a band playing....but you never know there's always a first time.


EERRRRR, 'scuse me.........

I agree also

in fact

whether live, or on CD, isn't it STILL a band playing ?

Certainly if there is a good sound system and that is set up properly, shouldn't it sound just like a live band ?

(I know this is well after the beginning of the post, but I've just started the year ! ! !):whistle:

bobgadjet
5th-January-2006, 12:51 PM
With the benefit of a few days hindsight, I am even more disturbed by the fact that religious treatments ("Assists", or "massages" to remove "negativity") were being carried out at Ceroc dance nights, and with the consent of the venue operator(s). Either they knew full-well the agenda behind these treatments and permitted them to take place - or were ignorant of what was going on. Both possibilities frighten me.

It's clearly not my place to criticize what venue operators do or don't permit at their venues, but I cannot hide the fact the fact that I don't like it.
OH COME ON.................... Next you will be complainint that somebody making Pizzas at a Ceroc venue is MAKING you put on weight, or maybe eat healthily or unhealthily (depending on the topping of course) at a Ceroc (or other organisation) social event.

Or maybe if there is somebody selling shoes/clothes at a Ceroc venue they might be telling you that your feet will drop off if you DONT buy THEIR stuff.

I don't think so.

The main thing I see is a bunch of extremely energetic guys playing fantastic music with a remarcable sound and making a whole load of people happy.
Alongside that I see some of their companions doing something they also enjoy doing.

The fact that there are leaflets around is not FORCING you to read them, or do anything you don't want to do.
If you sign up for a website thingy, you have the option to get out, very clearly stated, and they stop. They are not FORCING you to go further.

Are you, and people like you, so shallow in your mind that you cannot sort the wheat from the chaff, and decide what YOU wnat to do with you life, or what YOU wnat to think or follow with YOUR beliefs.

Is it really so wrong to enlighten people of ones beliefs, certainly if they are only ENLIGHTENING you of what THEY belive in.

As far as I am aware, and have seen first hand their operation at their headquarters, they don't PUSH anything. They are fully open about what they believe, and what they do. If you, or anybody wishes to know further, they will enlighten you.

I would think you would have more influence thrown upon you if you went to a church social night ! ! ! !

If you go dancing at Ashtons, do you read the advertising posters on the walls ? Are you then FORCED to take up Irish Country Dancing ?
I would LOOVE to see you trying that :wink:

stewart38
5th-January-2006, 01:05 PM
I was at Ashtons last night, I certainly didn't see anyone hassling anyone to join their strange religious cult, or even giving anyone a massage!

Until i start seeing loads of people wearing yellow jackets , I wont worry

Although I did see loads of men with black jackets at Ashtons recently, maybe that was more sinister :sad:

El Salsero Gringo
5th-January-2006, 01:08 PM
Is it really so wrong to enlighten people of ones beliefs, certainly if they are only ENLIGHTENING you of what THEY belive in.You've never been involved with a cult, have you?

David Bailey
5th-January-2006, 01:14 PM
OH COME ON.................... Next you will be complainint that somebody making Pizzas at a Ceroc venue is MAKING you put on weight, or maybe eat healthily or unhealthily (depending on the topping of course) at a Ceroc (or other organisation) social event.
Don't encourage him....


Are you, and people like you, so shallow in your mind that you cannot sort the wheat from the chaff, and decide what YOU wnat to do with you life, or what YOU wnat to think or follow with YOUR beliefs.
I am, definitely. Deep as a puddle, me. I get persuaded to do silly things all the time by this evil marketing and advertising stuff - I'm now in the middle of a detox GI diet, that's how easily influenced I am by fads and trends.

As another example, at the moment I'm trying to fight off the urge to point out that USE of CAPITALISATION doesn't ALWAYS work to MAKE your POINT. Oops... :blush:

El Salsero Gringo
5th-January-2006, 01:42 PM
I'd rather keep the subject of religion out of Ceroc venues. I don't want to be handed any leaflets for any church, mosque, synagogue, while I'm dancing.


I would think you would have more influence thrown upon you if you went to a church social nightI don't go to church social nights, for that reason. I find it unpleasant.

...Are you, and people like you...And by the way, do, please, take a moment to explain exactly to whom you are referring when you say "people like me".

Donna
5th-January-2006, 01:50 PM
I just heard an extremely odd story, from someone I trust and know well: that a friend of theirs who volunteered for a free massage from someone purporting to be some kind of official visiting "Massage Therapist" at the Masked Ball at Walthamstow is now being pestered by the Scientologists as a result.

Allegedly, the same group or person will be at Ashtons tonight.

I don't normally go in for third-hand stories, but that's just too wierd. Can anyone shed any kind of light on this?

(I heard that the massage was pants, too.)

Scientologists are very pushy people and can easily brainwash anybody. It's a very strange cult. They say they are christians, but it ain't! Try not to have anything to do with them and stay away.

Dreadful Scathe
5th-January-2006, 02:25 PM
Sorry, not getting the joke - are you trying to say that he had nothing to do with Scientology?

Or just mocking in general? (I don't agree with Scientology but I can think of a more useful response than simply mocking.)

I think Barry finds it funny that L.Ron Hubbards utterings could be considered "teachings" :)


So the defintion of religion must include a 'world view'

Stop reading between the lines for things that arent there. It is generally accepted that most religions do have a specific world view but "most" not "must". There are lots of other criteria that could sugest something is a religion. Personally I have no trouble accepting Scientology as a religion as it meets quite a lot of the criteria of one. Just because the guy who wrote down everything about it was alive in living memory is no reason to discount it. :)

Dreadful Scathe
5th-January-2006, 02:26 PM
I don't go to church social nights, for that reason. I find it unpleasant.
And by the way, do, please, take a moment to explain exactly to whom you are referring when you say "people like me".

I just wish people like you wouldnt question people like us :)

TheTramp
5th-January-2006, 02:41 PM
Scientologists are very pushy people and can easily brainwash anybody.

Maybe it's just me, but nobody has every tried to convert me to scientology. Perhaps they just don't want me :tears: I have however had plenty of people trying to convert me to 'ordinary' christianity - whether it be from singing or preaching in the street, leaflets given to me, or friends inviting me to events. On the whole, my evidence is that it's the ordinary christians who are pushy, not the scientologists... :whistle:


Try not to have anything to do with them and stay away.
:yeah:

But again, that's my advice regarding anybody peddling any form of religion...

David Bailey
5th-January-2006, 02:43 PM
I just wish people like you wouldnt question people like us :)
Donkeys questioning Smurfs? :what:
About what exactly? :confused:
It's a strange world.

bigdjiver
5th-January-2006, 03:11 PM
You've never been involved with a cult, have you?:devil: If you are on the forum ...

El Salsero Gringo
5th-January-2006, 03:21 PM
Maybe it's just me, but nobody has every tried to convert me to scientology. Perhaps they just don't want me :tears: I have however had plenty of people trying to convert me to 'ordinary' christianity - whether it be from singing or preaching in the street, leaflets given to me, or friends inviting me to events. On the whole, my evidence is that it's the ordinary christians who are pushy, not the scientologists... :whistle:
Christians at least ask you if you're interested in God. They don't peddle you a fake personality test supported by whizz-bang snake-oil powered skin galvanometers then tell you you're being manipulated by aliens and only they know how to make you 'clear'. After they take your money.

stewart38
5th-January-2006, 03:43 PM
Christians at least ask you if you're interested in God. They don't peddle you a fake personality test supported by whizz-bang snake-oil powered skin galvanometers then tell you you're being manipulated by aliens and only they know how to make you 'clear'. After they take your money.

Another religious debate :yeah:

All I want to know is...............


Is it safe to take my tin foil hemet off yet. :sad:

TheTramp
5th-January-2006, 04:00 PM
Christians at least ask you if you're interested in God. They don't peddle you a fake personality test supported by whizz-bang snake-oil powered skin galvanometers then tell you you're being manipulated by aliens and only they know how to make you 'clear'. After they take your money.

Ah. Again, I was just speaking from personal experience. I've never had any of that happen to me. Except for your first sentence. Which I've been asked both directly, and indirectly on far too many occasions...

Barry Shnikov
5th-January-2006, 04:19 PM
Is it really so wrong to enlighten people of ones beliefs, certainly if they are only ENLIGHTENING you of what THEY belive in.


At the risk of sounding monomaniacal, there is nothing 'enlightening' about Scientology. It's utter balderdash from start to finish.

That is not, however, to say that there are no pleasant, well-meaning and perfectly wonderful people who believe in it, nor that it has never done good works.

Not sure how I feel about Scientologists proselytising at Ceroc events. The gullible cannot always be protected from the faithful.

Barry Shnikov
5th-January-2006, 04:22 PM
Another religious debate :yeah:

All I want to know is...............


Is it safe to take my tin foil hemet off yet. :sad:

Absolutely not. I hope you have enough to line your bedroom as well.

TiggsTours
5th-January-2006, 04:24 PM
At the risk of sounding monomaniacal, there is nothing 'enlightening' about Scientology. It's utter balderdash from start to finish.

That is not, however, to say that there are no pleasant, well-meaning and perfectly wonderful people who believe in it, nor that it has never done good works.

Not sure how I feel about Scientologists proselytising at Ceroc events. The gullible cannot always be protected from the faithful.
They're not proselytising (had to look that one up!) they're just playing their music, dancing, and happy to talk to anyone who asks, nothing wrong with that, surely?

Barry Shnikov
5th-January-2006, 04:31 PM
They're not proselytising (had to look that one up!) they're just playing their music, dancing, and happy to talk to anyone who asks, nothing wrong with that, surely?

No, not at all. What I'm saying is ((pace Salsero G. who thinks they are proselytising) I'm not even sure it's possible to stop that.

I'd be a bit upset to see them with one of their auditing devices on a table at the back of a hall, but otherwise...?

LMC
5th-January-2006, 05:18 PM
No, not at all. What I'm saying is ((pace Salsero G. who thinks they are proselytising) I'm not even sure it's possible to stop that.
IASNAL*...

But we have had something come up recently where an employee (not of my organisation, I was just present at the work-related meeting) was asked to leave a client site because he was distributing religious literature. So "No promotion or distribution of non-company-related stuff without written permission" is now in the employment contract. Presumably the banana men could be told that the booking terms from the hirer include a similar condition. Of course, the only way that the hirer would know if they were breaking that condition is if someone complained :rolleyes:

*I am still not a lawyer

TiggsTours
5th-January-2006, 05:53 PM
Presumably the banana men could be told that the booking terms from the hirer include a similar condition. Of course, the only way that the hirer would know if they were breaking that condition is if someone complained :rolleyes:

:yeah:
But, whenever I've seen the "banana men" anywhere, they just leave their leaflets on the door, like anyone else, and there is a reference to scientology on it. They always ask if they can leave their leaflets, they always get told yes. I have never once witnessed them handing their leaflets out, or hassling anyone. Has anybody ever actually witnessed any such behaviour from them first hand? Honestly? Or is everybody just a bit scared that they're going to get unwittingly sucked in to a mumbo jumbo cult? Personally, I know my own mind, I know I'm not interested, and if somebody started talking to me in a way that led me to believe they were trying to suck me into their evil cult, I'd have no qualms in politely saying "I'm sorry, I respect your personal beliefs, I would appreciate the same respect in return. I would rather not discuss religion with you." If they continued, I'd walk away and complain to the franchise manager, without any bad feeling about myself.

El Salsero Gringo
5th-January-2006, 06:04 PM
They're not proselytising (had to look that one up!) they're just playing their music, dancing, and happy to talk to anyone who asks, nothing wrong with that, surely?Well, perhaps if you re-read the first post in this thread which I started, you'll understand why I was aking questions. I don't have any problems with anyone's personal beliefs, but I do have issues with cults, especially cults who try to infiltrate organisations which I'm pleased to belong to. If that's not what's going on, then there's really no problem is there?

TiggsTours
5th-January-2006, 06:09 PM
Well, perhaps if you re-read the first post in this thread which I started, you'll understand why I was aking questions. I don't have any problems with anyone's personal beliefs, but I do have issues with cults, especially cults who try to infiltrate organisations which I'm pleased to belong to. If that's not what's going on, then there's really no problem is there?
I was asking if anyone had experienced it, first hand, your first thread mentioned that someone you knew had talked to someone who had experienced it, told them, and they had and told you about it, so that makes it third hand.

Chinese whispers? Maybe your friend got the wrong idea, maybe they were just telling them what they think, not trying to convert them, in a purely conversational way. Maybe your friend told you they'd had this conversation, after being confused to the real circumstances themselves, and you didn't quite understand what they were saying, maybe someone you tell will tell someone, maybe that person will tell the next person that Ceroc is run by scientologists, and we've all been evily converted.

I'm just saying, unless you yourself were there at the time, you don't know, and viscous rumours like this can ruin people's lives.

El Salsero Gringo
5th-January-2006, 06:37 PM
I was asking if anyone had experienced it, first hand, your first thread mentioned that someone you knew had talked to someone who had experienced it, told them, and they had and told you about it, so that makes it third hand.

Chinese whispers? Maybe your friend got the wrong idea, maybe they were just telling them what they think, not trying to convert them, in a purely conversational way. Maybe your friend told you they'd had this conversation, after being confused to the real circumstances themselves, and you didn't quite understand what they were saying, maybe someone you tell will tell someone, maybe that person will tell the next person that Ceroc is run by scientologists, and we've all been evily converted.

I'm just saying, unless you yourself were there at the time, you don't know, and viscous rumours like this can ruin people's lives.*You* didn't ask if anyone had first hand experience of proselytising: you just stated as fact that it wasn't happening. *I* asked, in the first post of this thread whether anyone could shed any light on what I'd heard.

If raising the subject of Scientologists seeking converts and giving pseudo-religious massage treatments at a Ceroc venue ruins someone's life, that's a risk I'm prepared to take to forewarn and fore-arm the gullible and unwary from getting involved in a cult.

BTW, I love the idea of a "viscous" rumour ... thanks for that!

TiggsTours
5th-January-2006, 06:43 PM
*You* didn't ask if anyone had first hand experience of proselytising: you just stated as fact that it wasn't happening. *I* asked, in the first post of this thread whether anyone could shed any light on what I'd heard.
I'm sorry, even though you didn't quote it, I thought you would have read my entry which contained this:

Has anybody ever actually witnessed any such behaviour from them first hand?

If raising the subject of Scientologists seeking converts and giving pseudo-religious massage treatments at a Ceroc venue ruins someone's life, that's a risk I'm prepared to take to forewarn and fore-arm the gullible and unwary from getting involved in a cult.
I would fully back you on that, IF it was happening!

BTW, I love the idea of a "viscous" rumour ... thanks for that!
If I was a member of the Jive Aces, and I read this thread, I would see it is viscous, unfounded rumours. Seeing as the Jive Aces have a reputation as the UK leading Jive band, I'd say this rumour, that they are travelling to Ceroc venues and trying to convert people to scientology, when they really aren't, could be extremely damaging to that reputation.

Tessalicious
5th-January-2006, 06:43 PM
... viscous rumours like this can ruin people's lives.Sorry to break into the heated argument, but can I pipe up from Pedant's Corner to suggest that viscous rumours might stick, but don't spread very easily, so their potential for damage is somewhat limited. :whistle:

EDIT: Damn you, editing-addict you, ESG!

El Salsero Gringo
5th-January-2006, 06:53 PM
If I was a member of the Jive Aces, and I read this thread, I would see it is viscous, unfounded rumours. Seeing as the Jive Aces have a reputation as the UK leading Jive band, I'd say this rumour, that they are travelling to Ceroc venues and trying to convert people to scientology, when they really aren't, could be extremely damaging to that reputation.The Jive Aces are members of this Forum. If they want to comment on this thread, I'm sure they will.

I havent said that they're travelling to Ceroc venues in order to convert people. But they travel to Ceroc venues, give massage treatments - which within Scientology have a religious significance - and I had heard that someone had been contacted for followup "treatments". You, and they, can judge for your/themselves the wisdom of introducing *any* elements of a religion - customarily a private thing - at social events.

Dreadful Scathe
5th-January-2006, 07:04 PM
If I was a member of the Jive Aces, and I read this thread, I would see it is viscous, unfounded rumours.

Can you stop saying that? Its giving me the most disgusting disturbing images about what comes out of peoples mouths when they talk about the jive aces :)

LMC
5th-January-2006, 08:57 PM
^^^^ OVERSHARE

Now *I've* got those disgusting disturbing etc, and I was perfectly happy with the slightly surreal lemony images I had earlier :mad:

Perhaps I need to see the light, then I can heal myself (or is that Christian Scientists? - I get confused :blush: and I really can't be a*sed to Wiki)

Barry Shnikov
5th-January-2006, 09:24 PM
By the way, can I just say at this point that I don't like dancing to live music, I prefer the recorded variety.

El Salsero Gringo
6th-January-2006, 05:16 PM
Loath as I am to revive this thread, this link might be interesting to Forum members. I present it without further comment:

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/archive/archive/tm_objectid=16390988&method=full&siteid=62484-name_page.html

under par
6th-January-2006, 06:52 PM
Bizarre,:confused: I have no previous experience of this group and by the sounds of it I certainly do not want to either.

Dreadful Scathe
6th-January-2006, 07:02 PM
Loath as I am to revive this thread, this link might be interesting to Forum members. I present it without further comment:

http://www.sundaymirror.co.uk/archive/archive/tm_objectid=16390988&method=full&siteid=62484-name_page.html
I got bored reading that 2 paragraphs in and wandered off :)

tiger
7th-January-2006, 03:53 PM
Seen in todays Daily Express,pages 40+41,is an article on the HQ of Scientology. Worth a read.....

jiveknight
8th-January-2006, 04:41 PM
Hi,

Thanks Tiggs!

Yes, we are on the Forum and definitely travelling to Ceroc gigs, in fact tonight we are in Berkhampstead. As said before we like playing for jivers and a few of us jive ourselves. :clap:

Since you asked;
The "massages" are called assists. A nerve assist is something developed to help chiropractors. We used to have the bed in our dressing room for ourselves as touring and playing a lot can be hell on the back.Then friends who were dancers would have them and some people asked about them as they had aches or pains - and our dressing room was full all the time!

Giving them to help others was my idea. I noticed at gigs that sometimes there were massages that you had to pay for so I thought it was something we could offer for free and so many people wanted them that sometimes myself and Vince (piano) end up giving them. It works and it helps an aching back etc - anyone can give or recieve them. In fact volunteers went India and Pakistan after the disasters and taught other volunteers to do them - buddhists, rescue workers etc.

We had volunteers at Ground Zero in NY (I went there, not so pleasant), 600 helpers went over to help after the tsunami, loads of our volunteers, including the Jive Aces, helped with the Police and rescue workers after the London bombings and I believe we still have volunteers helping on the ground in New Orleans. IF you want, check this out on www.volunteerministers.org and have a look to get the other side. If not, don't bother.

It is something one finds out about for one's self. What is true for you is true for you, what is real for you is real for you.

I certainly have found it practical and workable and obviously if someone asks me for help I may use some in helping them find a solution but otherwise it is up to you. What I do promote is the Say No to Drugs campaign which we do many concerts for. I am very against street drugs and I do speak out against these drugs and the harm they are doing for society, we even work with other religions to do this. Is anyone for street drugs?? :mad:

As for the yellow suits, you should have seen us on New Year Eve in our kilts, great legs! :wink:

Now, that said, we are going to get ready to play music and entertain people. :)

Cheers and Happy New Year to all! :cheers: Hi,

Dreadful Scathe
9th-January-2006, 12:52 AM
Happy New Year, Strange Man in Yellow :)

Barry Shnikov
9th-January-2006, 01:31 AM
What is true for you is true for you, what is real for you is real for you.


You seem to be a nice bloke, and I belive I chatted with the band at Camber last spring, and had a perfectly pleasant time. I have no reason not to wish you well.

But your statement is wrong.

Of course, not everyone's experience in life is identical; however, what is true is true for everyone, regardless of what they would prefer to believe; and what is real is real for all people, everywhere, regardless of how they would like it to be.

stewart38
9th-January-2006, 01:05 PM
The Jive Aces are members of this Forum. If they want to comment on this thread, I'm sure they will.

I havent said that they're travelling to Ceroc venues in order to convert people. But they travel to Ceroc venues, give massage treatments - which within Scientology have a religious significance - and I had heard that someone had been contacted for followup "treatments". You, and they, can judge for your/themselves the wisdom of introducing *any* elements of a religion - customarily a private thing - at social events.

yes the couch was there at Berko , with the collection on of e-mail addresses

I think there a very nice bunch :yeah:

jiveknight
9th-January-2006, 04:16 PM
You seem to be a nice bloke,

Thanks. :cool:


Of course, not everyone's experience in life is identical;

:yeah:

Yeah, Berko was great last night, packed and a lot of fun. I even learnt a bit of latin in blues room. :nice:

El Salsero, let us know where you do go and we could have a good discussion about life the universe and everything sometime. If you want to that is.

Cheers! :cheers:

TheTramp
9th-January-2006, 06:15 PM
I enjoyed my 5 dances to the Jive Aces last night as usual. And then I went into the Blues (hereby re-christened the Latin and some blues (hi Marc :flower: )) room. Where I had a good time too.

Good night :clap:

El Salsero Gringo
9th-January-2006, 06:21 PM
El Salsero, let us know where you do go and we could have a good discussion about life the universe and everything sometime. If you want to that is. Thanks, but I don't feel comfortable talking over that kind of thing at a dance venue. Which was kind of the point of the thread.

jiveknight
9th-January-2006, 08:09 PM
Thanks, glad you had five. I ended up in the blues/latin room too (of course I had to wait until we'd finished first), I'll have to learn a bit of tango I guess.
It was a good night, I enjoyed it. :clap:




Thanks, but I don't feel comfortable talking over that kind of thing at a dance venue. Which was kind of the point of the thread.

Fair enough. Me too. I'll either be playing or dancing, or even discussing dance.

:cheers:

TheTramp
9th-January-2006, 08:13 PM
Thanks, glad you had five.
Lack of space in the main room sent me running to hide in the other room. Just not enough space to play :what:

One day I'll come up and say hello...

jiveknight
9th-January-2006, 11:23 PM
Lack of space in the main room sent me running to hide in the other room. Just not enough space to play :what:

One day I'll come up and say hello...

Please do.

I have question, were any of the dancers back there doing actual argentinian tango or is that jango? :blush:

Dreadful Scathe
10th-January-2006, 12:13 PM
Its viscous, whatever it is :)

jiveknight
10th-January-2006, 12:20 PM
Its viscous, whatever it is :)

I only feel viscous in the mornings. Maybe its viscose or a viscount (that's the noble not the old biscuit).

Lynn
10th-January-2006, 12:25 PM
I only feel viscous in the mornings. Maybe its viscose or a viscount (that's the noble not the old biscuit).:rofl: 'I vant, I vant... a viscount!'

Dreadful Scathe
10th-January-2006, 12:38 PM
:rofl: 'I vant, I vant... a viscount!'
I remember that advert too :)

Gordon J Pownall
21st-February-2006, 02:41 AM
For clarification...and a voice of some experience having worked with ex-cult members in a professional capacity



PLEASE NOTE THAT THE OPINIONS HEREIN POSTED ARE PERSONAL AND IN NO WAY REPRESENT THOSE OF ANY OTHER INDIVIDUAL, INDIVIDUALS OR GROUP


The views and opinions stated within this web page are those of the author that wrote them and may not reflect the views and opinions of the ISP or account user which hosts the web page.

The Jive Aces are a great live band...end of story...albeit a personal opinion.

Their road crew (mainly consisting of a sound engineer and roady) are lovely guys...

Their PR / sales girls have (and apparently continue) to promote Scientology and the teachings of Ron L Hubbard. This has included thought pathways, energy direction (through the loose association with relaxing massage) and medical reccomendations under the guise of cleansing meditation.

This is not a lifestyle choice, a religion or a system of beliefs. It is a cult that, for those who are not Tom Cruise / John Travolta and therefore equal bloody good if somewhat misleading PR, initially attacks the individual through reinforcing negative beliefs and insecurity to the point of distress.

At this point, the cult then manipulates that individual through controlling his or her lifestyle to the point of total dependence using threats, further reinforcement of lack of self worth and respect and manipulation of the values held by the individual which are negative to and therefore incompatible with Ron L Hubbards 'teachings'.

Please do not fall into the trap of "it's a way of relaxing you" or, "a personality test will reveal things you cannot yet understand - Don't you want to know why you are like this and how to stop it...?". This is an acknowledged and recognised as well as proven technique (amongst many others) that cult recruiters (that's their purpose) to gain a dialogue with prospective recruits. Recruiters will also ask you about your beliefs, religious or otherwise. Innocent enough on face value however this is another proven technique of interaction and 'testing the water'.

They will use clever (subtle and sub-conscious) questions and language patterns to trap you into a argumentative corner where the only outcome is agreement with their doctrine. Even on an informal level in a very informal environment, such as a Ceroc night, I have observed and been subject to this approach. They will ask about your health, lifestyle and personality, even offering free personality tests to 'give insight' into positive existence and ridding yourself of negativity. They will offer answers, support and guidance to ensnare individuals into taking the first step of joining them for a personality test etc etc etc.

Avoid, ignore or refuse...particularly if you are a vulnerable, emotionally insecure or person that is looking for support of any kind....

Gordon...

Please see below for further and (in my professional role) reasonably accurate insights into Ron L Hubbard, Scientology and Dianetics.


Operation Clambake works mainly with younger people and children who have been involved and now left Scientology.

http://www.xenu.net/archive/FAQ/answer_for_kids.html


Peter Forde is an English ex-cult member who precis' his life before during and after his time as a cult recruit...

http://home.snafu.de/tilman/mystory/forde.html


The Foster Report, 1971.

The Right Honourable Sir Keith Joseph, Bart., M.P.,Her Majesty's Secretary of State for the Social Services was commissioned to carry out a private investigation and research into, "the practice and effects of Scientology, and to report". This link informs you of his findings as to how Scientologists recruit. Full report is also available

http://www.xenu.net/archive/audit/foster05.html#recruitment


Richard Ford was at his wits end and vulnerable when her was recruited...leaving was a different matter...He now operates a helpline to support others leaving or who wish to leave the cult...

http://www.raids.org/gen00139.htm

For each of the above you will also find at least ten more similar negative experiences and a hundred more reports and comments as to why Scientology is a good thing...just take a balanced view...

TheTramp
21st-February-2006, 02:46 AM
Hiya Gordy...

Nice to see you back again :respect:

Gordon J Pownall
21st-February-2006, 02:50 AM
Hiya Gordy...

Nice to see you back again :respect:


thanks...:yeah:

Barry Shnikov
23rd-February-2006, 12:16 AM
During my time here, I have been somewhat disconcerted to discover that Los Angeles has a street named after L Ron Hubbard; at its intersection with Santa Monica Boulevard the passer by is deluged with adverts for Scientology.

Were I a citizen of Los Angeles, I would be agitating for the street to be named after someone with more moral fibre, less of a conman - er, Hannibal Lecter Boulevard anyone?