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stewart38
7th-April-2005, 02:01 PM
Attended a class the other night and instead of the usual push the girl away using your left hand placed on her left side/waist we were advised to push her away from her left arm.ie mans left arm pushing girls left arm to help the step back.

The reason given by the teacher was that the powers that be think pushing the girl away from the waist maybe 'inappropriate'

For the rest of the session I felt that pushing the girl away by placing left hand on her left side /waist was 'in appropriate' .Id never thought about this before.

confused now

Anyone else seen this political correctness :sick:

tsh
7th-April-2005, 02:06 PM
The reason given by the teacher was that the powers that be think pushing the girl away from the waist maybe 'inappropriate'


The first move is clearly inapropriate as well in that case....

To be safe, they probably ought to ban all physical contact, which I thought meant line dancing, but I think I'm wrong there as well.

ellen24
7th-April-2005, 02:12 PM
Well I suppose it all depends on the individual whether they find the physical contact inappropriate. I assume that most people would say if they found the level of physical contact during a certain move inappropriate.

As a female I don't find the 'push away with the hand on the waist' technique inappropriate at all. This is the way that I have been taught the move so I think I'd expect it. There are lots of moves that involve putting the hand on the female's waist so I don't see the point of varying this move.

But as tsh said in the previous post perhaps they ought to ban all moves with physical contact :whistle: although i dont see the point of that either :nice:
:clap:

ducasi
7th-April-2005, 02:26 PM
Attended a class the other night and instead of the usual push the girl away using your left hand placed on her left side/waist we were advised to push her away from her left arm.ie mans left arm pushing girls left arm to help the step back. don't you mean her right side/waist/arm?

We did the comb last night - we were taught to place our left hands on the girl's right arm, we could then push down to pull her arm off our necks and she would then step away.

This isn't what I was taught two weeks ago at a beginners workshop, but then we weren't taught to put our left hand on the girl's right side/waist then either.

I don't think it matters much, though the "new" way seems like it might be easier to go back to a left-right handhold. And perhaps the reverse for the "old" way.

I say do whatever's most comfortable for you. :waycool:

El Salsero Gringo
7th-April-2005, 02:28 PM
Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but Ceroc moves are never taught with any touching at the waist. It's always the hip, for the reasons suggested in the thread.

MartinHarper
7th-April-2005, 02:30 PM
We were advised to push her away from her left arm.ie mans left arm pushing girls left arm to help the step back.

Hurrah! No more people trying to gouge my liver out with their thumb! :wink:

ellen24
7th-April-2005, 02:35 PM
Yes I think it is in fact the hip not the waist :whistle:

stewart38
7th-April-2005, 02:41 PM
don't you mean her right side/waist/arm?

We did the comb last night - we were taught to place our left hands on the girl's right arm, we could then push down to pull her arm off our necks and she would then step away.

This isn't what I was taught two weeks ago at a beginners workshop, but then we weren't taught to put our left hand on the girl's right side/waist then either.

I don't think it matters much, though the "new" way seems like it might be easier to go back to a left-right handhold. And perhaps the reverse for the "old" way.

I say do whatever's most comfortable for you. :waycool:

Yes its her right side and its hip not waist

But what if a beginner never had anyone touch her hip ?

I do think it matters that there are so many 'variations' on what are essentially beginner’s moves but not as much as say Luton Town being promoted.

El Salsero Gringo
7th-April-2005, 02:41 PM
.... and it would be a shame if the hip was no longer taught as a lead-point to beginners, because it's a good place for spins and other stuff too.

Gadget
7th-April-2005, 02:52 PM
From my New verson of the "slow comb" (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4130) thread...

<rant>Have we suddenly had an influx of "perv" beginners? Have the actions of a few now dictated draconian measures to prevent anyone ever doing the same thing?

...etc.

basically, I agree.

ducasi
7th-April-2005, 02:58 PM
But what if a beginner never had anyone touch her hip ? In this case it wouldn't have been possible, as two moves previous we did the first move push spin - with touching and actual pushing of the poor girl's hip!

No-one goes to learn partner dancing without expecting some amount of "physical" contact between them and their partner. (Isn't holding hands bad enough??? :eek: )

I'd say that the comb is sufficiently intimate that if you're worried about a guy touching your hip, you wouldn't want to be doing the comb anyway.

Just one guy's point of view...

Lorna
7th-April-2005, 04:30 PM
Hi guys,

thought I'd just clarify things a little.

The comb was changed for a couple of reasons. We changed the left hand hold to the lady's arm for 2 reasons, that I can see anyway...

1. It was often innocently mis-interpreted as a hold on the lady's waist or worst still (for beginners) in the small of the back. This brings you closer together. Most ceroc teachers will try to emphasise the hold on the hip to help maintain a safe distance and as a useful tool for pushing away for spins etc. However it was felt that it was less intrusive to have the hand on the arm.

2. The hand on the arm is useful for teaching the lead on the slow walks for the slo comb. The men just need to lean down slightly on the lady's arm to help her know which way to lean/walk first. More in sync with each other .

Hope this helps.

Lotsa love Lorna x-x

Chicklet
7th-April-2005, 05:36 PM
.... and it would be a shame if the hip was no longer taught as a lead-point to beginners, because it's a good place for spins.

OH NO IT ISN'T :what: :what: :mad:
There is at least one thread FUUUUUUUUULL of ladies who agree with me

ChrisA
7th-April-2005, 06:02 PM
Hurrah! No more people trying to gouge my liver out with their thumb! :wink:

Nor while dancing with you....

:devil:

:rofl:

El Salsero Gringo
7th-April-2005, 06:11 PM
OH NO IT ISN'T :what: :what: :mad:
There is at least one thread FUUUUUUUUULL of ladies who agree with meoooh... point me to the thread. Sounds interesting.

Chicklet
7th-April-2005, 06:43 PM
I'm not techy enough to insert a link but if you do a search on hip spin you will find a thread about 10 down called Hip and Shoulder spins, (yes I started it)
.....there's actually some good advice on there about how to make them less, er problematic. :grin:

DavidY
7th-April-2005, 06:52 PM
I'm not techy enough to insert a link but if you do a search on hip spin you will find a thread about 10 down called Hip and Shoulder spins, (yes I started it)Link is here: Hip and Shoulder Spins (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2800) :flower:

El Salsero Gringo
7th-April-2005, 06:55 PM
OH NO IT ISN'T :what: :what: :mad:
There is at least one thread FUUUUUUUUULL of ladies who agree with meThis one (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2800) then. Which has (to date) exactly four ladies who don't like hip- or shoulder-spins. And scanning the thread, the reason that they don't like them is because in the main they're badly led, not for any reason intrinsic to the move.

I still believe that the hip is a good strong lead-point, and that beginners should be taught to use it.

TheTramp
7th-April-2005, 07:39 PM
I still believe that the hip is a good strong lead-point, and that beginners should be taught to use it.
I agree. And also shoulders.

And maybe if beginners were taught to do them properly, then the ladies who hate them wouldn't.... :rolleyes:

Andreas
7th-April-2005, 09:04 PM
1. It was often innocently mis-interpreted as a hold on the lady's waist or worst still (for beginners) in the small of the back. This brings you closer together. Most ceroc teachers will try to emphasise the hold on the hip to help maintain a safe distance and as a useful tool for pushing away for spins etc. However it was felt that it was less intrusive to have the hand on the arm.

I might be particularly thick or a really bad teacher. Never even did cross it my mind that one of my students could have interpreted a PUSH to the hip as an attempt to pull them in and HOLD them. No matter how bad executed, a push is never going to be a hold.



2. The hand on the arm is useful for teaching the lead on the slow walks for the slo comb. The men just need to lean down slightly on the lady's arm to help her know which way to lean/walk first. More in sync with each other.

That is kind of acceptable for a reason of this particular case. Though I must say that a lead on the body will always be more efficient than one on the arm as you do not rely on cross pressure. Perhaps I have a wrong idea of the walks you described, though.

:flower:

David Bailey
7th-April-2005, 09:35 PM
I still believe that the hip is a good strong lead-point,
:yeah: Definitely; and you can get some lovely motions out of it if done right - it allows much more force to be exerted, more safely, for faster and more dramatic turns.



and that beginners should be taught to use it.
Hmmm.... dunno about that, it's not the easiest of things to do well, and of course there's the whole area of PC-ness - a beginner's arm movements and judgement won't be as good as an intermediate's pretty much by definition. I don't think beginners should told "Hip-spins Are Bad", however.

Zebra Woman
7th-April-2005, 10:13 PM
....you can get some lovely motions out of it if done right - it allows much more force to be exerted, more safely, for faster and more dramatic turns.


Yes, I really like hip spins (done well :blush: )



...... it's not the easiest of things to do well, and of course there's the whole area of PC-ness - a beginner's arm movements and judgement won't be as good as an intermediate's pretty much by definition. I don't think beginners should told "Hip-spins Are Bad", however.

I agree they are not bad , not really beginners stuff but for intermediates I think leads to the womans body are well worth learning. Understanding where her centre is and how not to disturb it while spinning her is a vital skill. She cannot compensate with her arms so you see the true result of your lead. She either spins like a top or wobbles and stumbles.
This feedback is so clear, compared to spins led by your hand where the woman can smooth out your mistakes more easily.

On the subject of PC, 'hands on hips' can feel really invasive if the man is behind and has huge hands with long fingers and you have narrow hips. :really:

Oh I've just remembered, I like it when a twisty walk (maybe on the spot) is led this way too , finishing off with a hip spin. :waycool:

...and the same thing but led with the shoulders :waycool:

Andreas
7th-April-2005, 11:08 PM
Oh I've just remembered, I like it when a twisty walk (maybe on the spot) is led this way too , finishing off with a hip spin. :waycool:

That is called a Hip Shifter :wink: :flower:

Gadget
7th-April-2005, 11:58 PM
The comb was changed for a couple of reasons. We changed the left hand hold to the lady's arm for 2 reasons, that I can see anyway...
:D :devil:


1. It was often innocently mis-interpreted as a hold on the lady's waist or worst still (for beginners) in the small of the back. This brings you closer together. Most ceroc teachers will try to emphasise the hold on the hip to help maintain a safe distance and as a useful tool for pushing away for spins etc. However it was felt that it was less intrusive to have the hand on the arm.
The "Slow" verson of the comb was taught with the hand round the lady's back. What wasn't taught reguarly that could/should help was the lady's left hand on the man's right shoulder as a safety block.
The hand to lady's hip is to prevent the lady's from getting too close when you pulled her in; after all, you are taking her in close enough to have her elbow on your shoulder. It also provides a lead point closer to the lady's 'center' that allows for finer control and easier lead of these "walks" and "spins" than leading from an extremity.
I can understand it being less intrusive, but with that physical distance, it also becomes less sexy and less inviting; "I'm dancing with you at arms reach" {OK, so the majority of beginners start dancing the comb like this anyway, :rolleyes: but that's not the point.}

I'm just waiting to see how the basket can be made "less intrusive" - probably just make it a "basket walk-through" instead of getting too close to your partner with this 'twist out and in' bit... too much close proximity: MJ should be danced at arms-length!


2. The hand on the arm is useful for teaching the lead on the slow walks for the slo comb. The men just need to lean down slightly on the lady's arm to help her know which way to lean/walk first. More in sync with each other .:confused: More in sync than leading from the hip? What I am seeing more of is "Ray Charles" walks where the whole upper torso twists :what: but I suppose I can't complain since they are almost in sync with each other :rolleyes:
What can be more obvious than pushing on the hip to indicate that the lady should step back on that foot? mmmm, let me see, let's go in the opposite direction from her foot and lead it from the arm!

Men have enough trouble with the right elbow flapping in the comb, now let's introduce the left elbow flap as well - we can make this move just as stylish as the "in-and-out". Yea! Whoopee! Look ma; I can fly!
{Tramp - do me a favour: next time the in-and-out is taught, play "the birdy song" - just a snippit would do :devil:}


</rant>

MartinHarper
8th-April-2005, 12:57 AM
What can be more obvious than pushing on the hip to indicate that the lady should step back on that foot?

It's easy to confuse it with a hip push indicating that the girl should spin CW whilst travelling backwards.

TheTramp
8th-April-2005, 01:03 AM
{Tramp - do me a favour: next time the in-and-out is taught, play "the birdy song" - just a snippit would do :devil:}
Remember everyone. This is a request. And I always play requests..... :what:

Wendy
8th-April-2005, 01:16 AM
Remember everyone. This is a request. And I always play requests..... :what: You could also play it so he can do that duck thing he does instead of a pretzel :waycool:

Wx

David Bailey
8th-April-2005, 09:32 AM
Re: using hand-on-hip to indicate which foot to go back on

It's easy to confuse it with a hip push indicating that the girl should spin CW whilst travelling backwards.
:yeah: When I've tried to use a hip push to indicate "Go back on this foot" (usually with a silent "Please..." :) ), it's had mixed success; it's something you have to do occasionally if the standard lead is failing, but (apart from Martin's excellent point) leading footwork that way is also more intimate than hipspins; you're holding on longer, and it's a different hold.

So, you'd probably only do it with a regular dance partner, but you shouldn't have such a failing lead with a regular dance partner; so why do it?

Also, of course, "There's no footwork in Ceroc" :whistle: :D

Gadget
8th-April-2005, 11:23 AM
Re: using hand-on-hip to indicate which foot to go back on

:yeah: When I've tried to use a hip push to indicate "Go back on this foot" (usually with a silent "Please..." :) ), it's had mixed success;
?? but they are two seperate leads:
To indicate a step back, the pressure is applied more on the front of the hip with the heel of the hand downward towards where you want the heel of her foot to be.
To indicate a turn or rotation, the pressure is no more than maintaining contact and starting the lady in the direction of rotation - pressure comes from the 'crown' of the hand to the side of the hip.

There are also the visual clues that go with the physical lead; If a lady gets confused about which I am trying to lead her into, it's likley to be me not leading it clear enough.


Also, of course, "There's no footwork in Ceroc" :whistle: :D
:yeah: This isn't footwork - it's "advanced positioning of the lady" :innocent::whistle:

David Bailey
8th-April-2005, 11:43 AM
?? but they are two seperate leads:

Sure, but they both involve putting your hand on the lady's hip - sorry, thought that was where the thread was mutating. To be clear, I like hipspins, not keen on hipleads of footwork.



:yeah: This isn't footwork - it's "advanced positioning of the lady" :innocent::whistle:
"That's not flying, it's falling with style" :)

Franck
8th-April-2005, 12:23 PM
The new version of the Comb is an improvement for Beginners.
The main benefit is more evident in the context of the Slow Comb, but valid in the normal Comb.
The mechanics of the Comb are bring your partner close in, drop the hand over your head on your right shoulder and crucially either lead a static sway / walk (for the Slow Comb) or lead a step back (for the regular comb). You could expect the lady to step back automatically, but that would count as anticipating (in my books) and you would still have the issue of stopping her in the Slow Comb - in that case catching her hip / waist and pulling her towards you to stop her stepping back is invasive.
If you want to lead the step back (and as Wendy pointed out, you should :wink: ) then you'll have to push your partner back. All well in theory, but the hip is a very direct lead, there is no elasticity, so she'll either step back if she's ready to, or lose her balance.
Good dancers will prepare the step back with a subtle pull before the push back, but Beginners won't.
Using the arm, is perfect for the above as holding the arm is non-invasive, allows to lead a lateral sway as well as back and forward, and finally, the arm offers enough 'give' that an un-subtle push back can be absorbed.

When I've tried to use a hip push to indicate "Go back on this foot" (usually with a silent "Please..." :) ), it's had mixed success; it's something you have to do occasionally if the standard lead is failing,Leading footwork from the hip (or indeed any other point of contact) will only be successful in the context of a good connection / frame. Otherwise, as I mentioned above, there is too much potential for upsetting your partner's balance.
Yesterday in Perth, at the technical class, we dedicated the class to compression / leverage and frame, the result is that most people in the class were able to lead footwork / changes of directions with ease and comfort for them and their partners.
Ultimately, once you have become a competent dancer who can lead, do footwork, remember fun moves and add style, you still have the next stage to grapple with: Becoming aware of your partner's position, momentum, balance and weight distribution. Once you can 'feel' all of the above, you then start leading moves that your partner will be able to follow / dance effortlessly...

"There's no footwork in Ceroc" :whistle: :DThis is a distortion of two concepts!

1 - We do not teach any footwork to beginners (beyond simple step backs / pivots).

2 - There is no explicit / specific footwork that can be associated with MJ, as we borrow footwork from any and all dance styles (hopefully to fit the music).

There is plenty of footwork taught in Intermediate classes and workshops (not mentioning the Technical classes and other various initiatives that have been tested across the country).

Lorna
8th-April-2005, 12:48 PM
:D :devil:


The "Slow" verson of the comb was taught with the hand round the lady's back. What wasn't taught reguarly that could/should help was the lady's left hand on the man's right shoulder as a safety block.


I'm just waiting to see how the basket can be made "less intrusive" - probably just make it a "basket walk-through" instead of getting too close to your partner with this 'twist out and in' bit... too much close proximity: MJ should be danced at arms-length!

:confused: More in sync than leading from the hip? What I am seeing more of is "Ray Charles" walks where the whole upper torso twists :what: but I suppose I can't complain since they are almost in sync with each other :rolleyes:
What can be more obvious than pushing on the hip to indicate that the lady should step back on that foot? mmmm, let me see, let's go in the opposite direction from her foot and lead it from the arm!

Men have enough trouble with the right elbow flapping in the comb, now let's introduce the left elbow flap as well - we can make this move just as stylish as the "in-and-out". Yea! Whoopee! Look ma; I can fly!
{Tramp - do me a favour: next time the in-and-out is taught, play "the birdy song" - just a snippit would do :devil:}


</rant>

Right,

you're first comment about the 'slo comb'. Yep, fair enough, however before the move was changed a slo comb wasn't taught in a beginner's class. And I think it is ok to teach more closer moves to intermediates . I can't speak for all teachers out there but I know that I almost always discussed the lady's hand block. If only because I know I get a laugh when I teach it. I can't remember how many times I've thrusted myself into Bill, (oh it's a hard life), whilst making this very key point.

As for the basket, now I know you're just being silly. :wink:

Just reading your post again. You're having a right go aren't you?

I think that I teach the walks really well if I do say so myself. And having the hand on the arm really helps. You're forgetting that you are not a beginner so it is really quite difficult for you to understand how much easier this makes it for people who are there on their first night being faced with an up close and personal move, never mind trying to add some stylish walks to it. Keeping the hand on the arm does make it less obtrusive for your 'complete beginner' and helps them lead and follow the walks. You'll never convince me otherwise.

However as an experienced dancer I actually prefer to dance the old comb but then you know I'm not the shy type. :wink: But some people are!!

Now what else was there? Oh yes the flapping of the arms. Now stop being silly. I promise if I see anyone in danger of flying out the hall then I'll make it my mission to help them flap a little less. :rolleyes:

See you on Tuesday, looking forward to the birdie dance. In fact i think you should dance it with me.

Lotsa love Lorna x-x

Gadget
8th-April-2005, 01:57 PM
...but I know that I almost always discussed the lady's hand block. :blush: my badness now you say that, every time the slo comb was/is taught you included it (as does Lisa). I can't remember it being taught in the standard comb tho... but I can't remember a lot of things :rolleyes:

I think that the changes were highlighted for be specifically because Franck taught a slow comb in one lesson, then the next time I had a lesson (in the beginner's class) the new comb was taught. Lots of contrast.

There are specific 'problems' that related to the lead for the comb (and follow too I presume), and by changing the move, it eliminates the cause - therefore the symptoms go away too. And you get a new set. Admittedly, this set is less likley to cause offence or give the impression of 'slease' to beginners, but I don't think anyone is going to change the fact that I dislike the 'new' way and think it looks really... well... stupid. {Like that "right-guard" advert where the lady's couldn't lift their arms for fear of any sweat stains}


As for the basket, now I know you're just being silly. :wink: :innocent: perhaps a little bit, but how long before the "step back on the left for the lead" comes back in to the script for this move? I noticed the last time that 80-90% of men are now stepping back with their right foot: much easier in my opinion, and much closer, with much more 'style'. How long before this becomes "too intemate"?


Just reading your post again. You're having a right go aren't you?If you're going to rant, you may as well do it properly :devil::D


I think that I teach the walks really well if I do say so myself.
You do. Nothing wrong with the teaching - just the move I dislike.:flower:
And having the hand on the arm really helps.Yes, there is no doubt that it does... for folk that are uncomfortable with the hip. For folk that have would have a straight arm just to reach the hip. But is this not a problem with the section of the move before, that leads into this bit, rather than the hip lead?
It helps more than not having the arm present, or having the lead unable/unwilling to do anything but gingerly touch the lady's hip.
{musing... I suppose it would be possible to lead a walk from the contact on your neck and with the right hand... but I've not tried that... yet.}


Now what else was there? Oh yes the flapping of the arms. Now stop being silly. I promise if I see anyone in danger of flying out the hall then I'll make it my mission to help them flap a little less. :rolleyes: {:rofl:} But I like being silly! :tears:
{Actually it's a fun challenge - can you make the "in and out" look good, stylish, or fun? There is the 'charlston' version, the 'demure squat', the 'birdy song', the 'lovers kiss', the 'lover's tiff', the 'glasgow kiss', ... well you've got to do something with the move!}

See you on Tuesday, looking forward to the birdie dance. In fact i think you should dance it with me.... Is this a threat or a promise ? :what:

TheTramp
8th-April-2005, 02:00 PM
the 'birdy song'

Is this a threat or a promise ? :what:
Oh god. Do I really have to play this??

Are you going to announce that it's a request first please Lorna?!? :tears:

Lorna
8th-April-2005, 02:35 PM
Too right and I'll tell everyone who requested it too!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Looking forward to it already,

see ya, and I'll get working on the in and out for you Gadget. Mind you as you know I find it difficult enough to teach this without being suggestive and trying not to end up in fits of giggles. :blush:

Lotsa love Lorna x-x

mick
8th-April-2005, 02:41 PM
Attended a class the other night and instead of the usual push the girl away using your left hand placed on her left side/waist we were advised to push her away from her left arm.ie mans left arm pushing girls left arm to help the step back.

The reason given by the teacher was that the powers that be think pushing the girl away from the waist maybe 'inappropriate'

For the rest of the session I felt that pushing the girl away by placing left hand on her left side /waist was 'in appropriate' .Id never thought about this before.

confused now

Anyone else seen this political correctness :sick:

Personally, I would only do any move that was in any way intimate, with someone I know well, and whom I know would "appreciate" it. So the problem would never arise.

Gadget
8th-April-2005, 09:14 PM
Too right and I'll tell everyone who requested it too!!! :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :what: oh oh... How many would believe me if I denied it?... yea, thought as much :rolleyes::(


see ya, and I'll get working on the in and out for you Gadget. Mind you as you know I find it difficult enough to teach this without being suggestive and trying not to end up in fits of giggles. :blush: I'll start working on my moans and exclamations then... "in" *uh* "out" *hhuh* "and in" *UH*..... te he he he... I think I may have come up with a "safety word"# to cry accross the floor: "yes, Yes, YES!" :rofl:


{#see the roles of lead and follow (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5082) thread}

David Bailey
9th-April-2005, 01:30 PM
... I don't think anyone is going to change the fact that I dislike the 'new' way and think it looks really... well... stupid.

:yeah: I was trying the non-hip rule last night. With a good follower, I could lead by touching pretty much any body part (!), so, for example, I could lead the step-back with the arm-on-arm, given enough tension - and, OK, it looked pretty good.
However, there's no way I could lead that with a beginner - the hand on hip is essential there, otherwise the whole thing descends into chaos. I found the hiplead to be essential, mainly to give an indication of timing - beginners would step back fine, but usually off-beat,

OK, that was only a small sample, but I think it's making the comb a more difficult move without the hip-push, so maybe it should be only taught at intermediate level... However, if we start making all these moves intermediate, there'll be nothing left for the beginners to learn :whistle:

I'll stick with the hip, if needed; old dog, new tricks, etc.



Actually it's a fun challenge - can you make the "in and out" look good, stylish, or fun?
No. No way, no how, no hope. It's such a basic move, you can only make it look good by changing it totally - in which case it's a different move. The move as is, I think, can't really be "stylised".

ducasi
9th-April-2005, 01:41 PM
Actually it's a fun challenge - can you make the "in and out" look good, stylish, or fun? At my first workshop in Edinburgh a few weeks back the "in and out" was taught, and I've got to say, our teacher made it look really stylish - he added lots of rotational movement in the arms, and showed us a novel way of ending the move by placing the lady's hands on your chest and then "pushing" her off with a couple of shoulder flicks. If you didn't want to use her hands on your chest (for whatever reason) you could use your shoulders.

The way he did it, it looked good, stylish and a lot of fun.

Dance Demon
9th-April-2005, 02:04 PM
The reason given by the teacher was that the powers that be think pushing the girl away from the waist maybe 'inappropriate'


So!.......does that mean that for the last umpteen years, that Ceroc have been teaching us how to do inappropriate moves?...anyone know a good lawyer?.. :devil: :devil: :wink:

David Bailey
9th-April-2005, 03:12 PM
So!.......does that mean that for the last umpteen years, that Ceroc have been teaching us how to do inappropriate moves?
Well, of course! The pretzel, the backhander, the tunnel, the half-bloody-windmill, they should be sued. Oh, hold on... :grin:

Zebra Woman
9th-April-2005, 05:43 PM
I'll stick with the hip, if needed; old dog, new tricks, etc.


Good plan you old dog. :wink:



No. No way, no how, no hope. It's such a basic move, you can only make it look good by changing it totally - in which case it's a different move. The move as is, I think, can't really be "stylised".

Hmmm have you ever seen Viktor doing the 'in and out' move ? :whistle:

Stylish or what? :worthy:

:clap: Hope he does one tonight :clap:

stewart38
9th-April-2005, 05:57 PM
Personally, I would only do any move that was in any way intimate, with someone I know well, and whom I know would "appreciate" it. So the problem would never arise.


So the old way that worked for 1000s of yrs is now sleazy ? :sick:

David Bailey
9th-April-2005, 06:22 PM
Hmmm have you ever seen Viktor doing the 'in and out' move ?
Hmmm, maybe (definitely) I'm confused - is the in and out the side-to-side, (because that's the one I was thinking of), or the facing-each-other?

If it's the side-to-side one, I stand by my convictions, wrong though I may be.
If the facing-each-other, then oops, mea culpa - that can be done with some style I think, as it allows more arm movement and variation in timing etc - you're more balanced as a leader, you have more options to slow things down / speed them up as appropriate.

I swear, I've forgotten 95% of these move names now... Hell, they're silly names anyway...

Whitebeard
9th-April-2005, 10:06 PM
If it's the side-to-side one, I stand by my convictions, wrong though I may be.
Just goes to show, dunnit ?? One man's poison ......

In my view this is a very simple and yet instructive beginner move which shows that steps can go sideways, as well as backward and forward, besides introducing the travelling return. And the move just begs to be done with a bit of musicality and style, whether that be smooth and lilty or brash panache.

Gadget
9th-April-2005, 10:14 PM
Looking forward to it already,
Sorry to dissapoint, but I may not be able to make it on Tuesday :tears: {Not "chickening" out; I've a funeral in Edinburgh that I may not make it back in time from.}

MartinHarper
10th-April-2005, 12:04 AM
Our teacher made (the in and out) look really stylish - he added lots of rotational movement in the arms.

Personal opinion, but... Yuk! I hate that "crazy arms" in and out variation. Women put effort into a good "frame", and moves like that one, or "halleluja rocks", just break all their hard work. I'd rather put some style into the parts of the body that aren't directly involved in leading and following the thing.

Franck
10th-April-2005, 03:29 AM
So!.......does that mean that for the last umpteen years, that Ceroc have been teaching us how to do inappropriate moves?...anyone know a good lawyer?.. :devil: :devil: :wink:I know a few good lawyers, but we didn't change the Comb because it used to be in-appropriate, but because some Beginners might perceive it to be and be put off dancing.
I like the fact that over the last 18 months, Ceroc have looked hard at the format of the classes, the moves, and also tested extensively in different venues / areas. Using the Database as a feedback mechanism and following up with direct contact with Beginners. Teachers were consulted, and we discussed many aspects of the Ceroc format. For a while, moves were introduced, tested and removed. I really like the result and believe that Ceroc is now stronger than ever.
I can't think of any dance organisation that has worked so hard to improve / grow on such a scale.

David Bailey
10th-April-2005, 09:10 AM
In my view this is a very simple and yet instructive beginner move which shows that steps can go sideways, as well as backward and forward, besides introducing the travelling return.

:yeah: totally - no problem with any of that. It's an essential beginner's move - and yes, I'd call it a move, not a filler.



And the move just begs to be done with a bit of musicality and style, whether that be smooth and lilty or brash panache.
Ahh, this is where we may have to agree to disagree. :sad:
Maybe I'm just bored with it. I guess, objectively, any move can be done to look good. Except the windmill of course, let's not go crazy here.

Gadget
10th-April-2005, 10:11 PM
...we didn't change the Comb because it used to be in-appropriate, but because some Beginners might perceive it to be and be put off dancing.
"some". I can understand the perception. I can understand the reasoning behind the change. I do however question whether this change will actually bring that "some" back into the collective? Or even prevent those few newcomers who could be put off by the move from leaving in the first palce.

Another down side to the move is that it is only seen done by beginners in classes and the odd beginner who remembers it on the dance floor. Anyone passed "beginner" stage is shown alternate ways of doing combs (that do not involve this 'left-arm on elbow' business) and addopt them.
{In saying this, the change has only been in the last 18 months - there may be a rising beginner out there who will take the move to heart and wow everyone in Jivemasters with it in 5 years or so.}


I like the fact that over the last 18 months, Ceroc have ~done stuff~ I really like the result and believe that Ceroc is now stronger than ever.I don't think that anyone could fault the development programme or the work that Ceroc as a 'team' put into their business. Dancing is a hobby for most folk - a passtime that we work at our day jobs to pay for. Most people involved in it have a passion for dance - it's nice to see that passion cascade through the collective down to us drones. :D :wink:
{that last comment was slightly tounge in cheek, but :worthy: all the same :D}

DavidY
10th-April-2005, 10:22 PM
I like the fact that over the last 18 months, Ceroc have looked hard at the format of the classes, the moves, and also tested extensively in different venues / areas. Using the Database as a feedback mechanism and following up with direct contact with Beginners. Teachers were consulted, and we discussed many aspects of the Ceroc format. For a while, moves were introduced, tested and removed. I really like the result...~SNIP~ Assuming it's now a stable list & won't change for a while, what are the official beginners' moves now?

Northants Girly
10th-April-2005, 11:11 PM
Anyway - back to the comb . . . .

My 2 glasses of wine r kicking in now so bear with me . . . . .

Last Friday at Banbury, Roy and Yuko taught a comb in the Intermediate class . . . .

It was one where the guy turns right around, and the lady leaves her hand on the top of his back/neck while he does it . . .

anyway . . . .

while Roy was doing this . . . Yuko did the most amazing hip wiggle thing :worthy:

I declare that I now have a new mentor/idol - YUKO!

She is amazing!!!!

mick
11th-April-2005, 03:28 PM
So the old way that worked for 1000s of yrs is now sleazy ? :sick:

It certainly is not sleazy with the right person. But if I was a woman I certainly would not like a sleazy person doing the comb with me.

David Bailey
11th-April-2005, 05:12 PM
It certainly is not sleazy with the right person. But if I was a woman I certainly would not like a sleazy person doing the comb with me.
I may have been doing it wrong all this time, but I don't think the standard (non-slow) comb really has much sleaze potential (and hey, I'd know :grin: ). After all, it's just an in-and-out move - even ignoring the Hand On Hip debate - and you're not UCP with your partner, any more than with the Basket. The comb itself is, AFAIK, just an elegant way of transferring hands / filler move.

OK, Slow Comb, fair enough. Lady-comb, could be. And the DavidJames' patented-arm-roll-twist comb-thingy, certainly :)

Actually, of those three, I'd say the Lady-comb is more iffy from the sleaze perspective. And the Honeycomb is even more so. Or so I'm told :whistle:

stewart38
12th-April-2005, 12:05 PM
I may have been doing it wrong all this time, but I don't think the standard (non-slow) comb really has much sleaze potential (and hey, I'd know :grin: ). After all, it's just an in-and-out move - even ignoring the Hand On Hip debate - and you're not UCP with your partner, any more than with the Basket. The comb itself is, AFAIK, just an elegant way of transferring hands / filler move.

OK, Slow Comb, fair enough. Lady-comb, could be. And the DavidJames' patented-arm-roll-twist comb-thingy, certainly :)

Actually, of those three, I'd say the Lady-comb is more iffy from the sleaze perspective. And the Honeycomb is even more so. Or so I'm told :whistle:

But we did a slow comb in beginners yesterday with left hand firmly placed on girls back + 5 moves :sick: Thats got to be confusing.

David Bailey
12th-April-2005, 01:08 PM
But we did a slow comb in beginners yesterday with left hand firmly placed on girls back + 5 moves :sick: Thats got to be confusing.
Well then, I certainly hope you turned yourself into the police afterwards for inappropriate dancing, you sleazebag :grin: :wink:

I didn't know the slow comb was a beginner's move, but these things keep changing. Sounds like quite an advanced beginner's class.