PDA

View Full Version : Who can't dance?



David Bailey
7th-April-2005, 08:38 AM
From
another thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=114701&postcount=212) ...



I wonder if it's possible that some people just can't do modern jive??? And how long it should take you to realise this? A week? A month? 3 months? A year? More? Please, I'd be very interested in replies to this. Perhaps someone might want to start a new thread based on this question?


Well, why not.... :)

OK, I think there is a small percentage of people who just can't dance (MJ or otherwise, the skills required are pretty similar I believe); they don't have rhythm, balance or co-ordination.

However, I also think this percentage is very small - and I believe that most of the people who say they can't dance, can. Percentage numbers... I dunno, but less than 5% I'd guess, maybe around 1%.

Of course, that doesn't mean 99% of people can dance well, there's still a massive range of abilities in that 99%.

Any other opinions?

Gadget
7th-April-2005, 12:29 PM
Any other opinions?
no.

OK, so I lied...:rolleyes:

I think that dancing is a skill: as such it can be learned.
Some people may find it difficult to learn and lack grounding skills that dancing is based on; but these, again, can be learned.

The Ceroc model is designed to teach people as a group and it suceeds quite well. Unfortunatly, people are not 'average' or identical within this group, so some will learn better and some will not. Those with "special needs" will get more one-on-one focus with taxi dancers who will try and identify any problems and improve on them.

My view is that the main stumbling block with learning (/teaching) anything is finding the right approach for that person: People learn in different ways from different things.

So anyone can dance, but some people just need to learn some basic pre-dance skills first and find the right approach to learning the rest of it.

El Salsero Gringo
7th-April-2005, 12:40 PM
no.

OK, so I lied...:rolleyes:

I think that dancing is a skill: as such it can be learned.
Some people may find it difficult to learn and lack grounding skills that dancing is based on; but these, again, can be learned.

The Ceroc model is designed to teach people as a group and it suceeds quite well. Unfortunatly, people are not 'average' or identical within this group, so some will learn better and some will not. Those with "special needs" will get more one-on-one focus with taxi dancers who will try and identify any problems and improve on them.

My view is that the main stumbling block with learning (/teaching) anything is finding the right approach for that person: People learn in different ways from different things.

So anyone can dance, but some people just need to learn some basic pre-dance skills first and find the right approach to learning the rest of it.
I don't agree that anyone can dance. Anyone can learn to move their body in the right way, but not everyone can learn to hear the rhythm in the music sufficiently. Most people - but not all.

Gadget
7th-April-2005, 12:55 PM
I don't agree that anyone can dance. Anyone can learn to move their body in the right way, but not everyone can learn to hear the rhythm in the music sufficiently. Most people - but not all.
Learning to hear the rhythm in music - I think it should be able to be taught: I think that a visit to a mixing studio where all the sounds in a track can be isolated would go a long way to help. Or even getting that yamaha keyboard to pump out a repetative beat and trying to find it.
The dance mats for game consoles may also be a good place to start (I have the game cube, and they don't do dance mats for it :tears: but they do do bongo drums :clap: )

JoC
7th-April-2005, 01:15 PM
What are you all going to do with the people who can't dance...?

Lorna
7th-April-2005, 01:26 PM
I don't agree that anyone can dance. Anyone can learn to move their body in the right way, but not everyone can learn to hear the rhythm in the music sufficiently. Most people - but not all.


I agree with Gadget. Rhythm can be taught. Depending on your musical experiences as a child, it may take longer than others but with one to one tuition I believe that this can be taught.

Lotsa love Lorna x-x

Lynn
7th-April-2005, 01:36 PM
The co-ordination thing is another reason why people think they could never learn how to dance...

Quite a few people tell me, when I invite them to try MJ 'I couldn't dance, I have no co-ordination' - to which I ask them 'can you drive a car' (knowing that they can!) and they say yes, so I point out that they are doing different things with their feet and hands all at the same time - so they do have co-ordination! I think that comparision also helps them to realise that you don't 'get' that all at once, at first you had to think about clutch, handbrake, accelerater, gear stick, footbrake, steering - but after a while its easy (its called 'unconscious competence'). So they will have more patience with themselves if they don't get MJ the very first night.

(A little aside - for those who drive - you are driving along and want to change gear - what is the first thing you do (not talking about looking etc))

ducasi
7th-April-2005, 02:33 PM
From
another thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=114701&postcount=212) Thanks David for picking up on this.

I was specifically thinking of a few women I've danced with over the weeks I've been going who, although they may have years of experience, just don't seem to get what Ceroc dancing is all about.


OK, I think there is a small percentage of people who just can't dance (MJ or otherwise, the skills required are pretty similar I believe); they don't have rhythm, balance or co-ordination. It's not really about whether they can dance or not - they may be fantastic {insert your favourite different form of dance here} dancers - but that they don't make good modern jive dancers.

One very experienced woman I've danced with had close to zero tension in her arms. How do you lead someone with floppy arms?

Another one seems to almost walk through her turns and spins.

At the other end of the spectrum, some of the beginners, even after three or four weeks still don't seem to understand the "no thumbs" rule and want to cling on to you for dear life!

Shouldn't someone take them aside and tell them to go to a non-partner dance, like Line Dancing? :wink:

CJ
7th-April-2005, 03:09 PM
I was specifically thinking of a few women I've danced with over the weeks I've been going who, although they may have years of experience, just don't seem to get what Ceroc dancing is all about.


Appreciating fully you're years of experiance on the MJ circuit and the fact the you have been around the MJ block SOOOOOOOOOOO many times, I am truly grateful for your insightful, understanding observations.

Please cc in PM form any more of your insights that you post here as I'd hate the misfortune of accidentally missing any further pearls from your gentle hand and my MJ life being all the bleaker for it...

:D

ducasi
7th-April-2005, 03:19 PM
Appreciating fully you're years of experiance on the MJ circuit and the fact the you have been around the MJ block SOOOOOOOOOOO many times, I am truly grateful for your insightful, understanding observations. As I've said before, you don't need to be an expert to know when someone is doing something badly.

I don't need to know how to drive to recognise bad driving.

I don't need to know how to play a piano to recognise poor keyboard skills.

I don't need to know much about MJ to see that other people after years of practice are just not cut out for it.

I still haven't decided whether I am.

ducasi
7th-April-2005, 03:30 PM
I was specifically thinking of a few women I've danced with over the weeks I've been going who, although they may have years of experience, just don't seem to get what Ceroc dancing is all about.

{snip}

Shouldn't someone take them aside and tell them to go to a non-partner dance, like Line Dancing? Thinking more about this, I'm probably being a bit harsh.

I don't enjoy doing things I'm not good at, but I guess there are people who do, and have every right to do so.

Good luck to them. :hug: But I won't be asking to dance with them....

El Salsero Gringo
7th-April-2005, 03:36 PM
Appreciating fully you're years of experiance on the MJ circuit and the fact the you have been around the MJ block SOOOOOOOOOOO many times, I am truly grateful for your insightful, understanding observations.

Please cc in PM form any more of your insights that you post here as I'd hate the misfortune of accidentally missing any further pearls from your gentle hand and my MJ life being all the bleaker for it...

:DHee hee hee....

Something tells me Ducasi has just been inducted into the Forum 'inner circle'. Don't take it personally, chap.

Tell you what, will you *both* PM me with future examples of any such withering patronage that you can come up with? I would so hate to miss out.

David Bailey
7th-April-2005, 03:37 PM
Appreciating fully you're years of experiance on the MJ circuit and the fact the you have been around the MJ block SOOOOOOOOOOO many times, I am truly grateful for your insightful, understanding observations.

Well, I am grateful for Ducasi's contributions, personally, they're very interesting and readable. And non-offensive...

So...:



some of the beginners, even after three or four weeks still don't seem to understand the "no thumbs" rule and want to cling on to you for dear life!

"even" 3-4 weeks? I suspect you're optimistic in how long it takes for some followers to let go (pun intended)...

My main point was that I think some people (a very small percentage, as I said) just don't have, well, rhythm I guess. I'm not so worried about coordination or even balance, I think these have some element of acquired skill to them, but I just feel something like rhythm is inherent; if you don't have it, you'll never be a dancer. I remember a guy at Ashtons many years back who really didn't have rhythm, despite many years' of dancing - I'm not saying there are lots of people like this, but I think there are a few...

stewart38
7th-April-2005, 03:38 PM
From
another thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=114701&postcount=212) ...



Well, why not.... :)

OK, I think there is a small percentage of people who just can't dance (MJ or otherwise, the skills required are pretty similar I believe); they don't have rhythm, balance or co-ordination.

However, I also think this percentage is very small - and I believe that most of the people who say they can't dance, can. Percentage numbers... I dunno, but less than 5% I'd guess, maybe around 1%.

Of course, that doesn't mean 99% of people can dance well, there's still a massive range of abilities in that 99%.

Any other opinions?

Id say 20% or more ? 1% ?? . I dance with someone who had been dancing a year it might as well have been her first time. Im afraid 1% naaaaaaa maybe 35%

David Bailey
7th-April-2005, 03:40 PM
What are you all going to do with the people who can't dance...?
Well, probably not dance with them for a start... :)

(Note: I'm not advocating any elitist behaviour - we should all generally dance with everyone, sleazebags excepted)

MartinHarper
7th-April-2005, 03:51 PM
(these women) just don't seem to get what Ceroc dancing is all about.

What is Ceroc dancing all about? :)


One very experienced woman I've danced with had close to zero tension in her arms. How do you lead someone with floppy arms?

Visual/auditory leads/signals.
Certainly "floppy arms" are bad. Some women do this as a compensation technique when dancing with "yankers", though I doubt that applies to you. MJ is a technique-lite dance, and part of being a good social MJ leader is being able to have a satisfactory dance with women with poor technique.


Another one seems to almost walk through her turns and spins.

If you're talking about what I think you're talking about, that's a style/technique point, and certainly not "wrong". I can witter on about why, if you like?

David Franklin
7th-April-2005, 03:59 PM
One very experienced woman I've danced with had close to zero tension in her arms. How do you lead someone with floppy arms?

Another one seems to almost walk through her turns and spins.

At the other end of the spectrum, some of the beginners, even after three or four weeks still don't seem to understand the "no thumbs" rule and want to cling on to you for dear life!

Shouldn't someone take them aside and tell them to go to a non-partner dance, like Line Dancing? :wink:Ev'ry time I get turned down, I cry a little
Ev'ry time I get turned down, I wonder why, a little
I still don't know squat,
But how strange, the change - beginner to hotshot... :devil:

TheTramp
7th-April-2005, 04:13 PM
Shouldn't someone take them aside and tell them to go to a non-partner dance, like Line Dancing? :wink:

I don't need to know much about MJ to see that other people after years of practice are just not cut out for it.
Or maybe someone should take them aside, and let them know what they're doing wrong at MJ?

A lot of people come to MJ as a bit of a hobby, a social night out, etc. And there's nothing wrong with this. They can get around the dance floor for a track, and it's not too bad. After all, it's only 3.5 minutes. And mostly, they dance with people who are more or less at the same level of themselves anyhow. And don't expect anything more. And all of this is totally fine (just restating that point).

I'm with Lorna. I believe that you can teach anyone to dance. This does of course, depend on whether or not they want to, have the time or energy etc. to learn. I don't have a problem at all with those who just come most weeks to the one class, for a night out. I certainly would never even think about suggesting that they shouldn't come.

Guess it all just depends on what you want to achieve with your dancing really.

stewart38
7th-April-2005, 04:42 PM
I'm with Lorna. I believe that you can teach anyone to dance. This does of course, depend on whether or not they want to, have the time or energy etc. to learn.
Guess it all just depends on what you want to achieve with your dancing really.

You could probably say you could teach anyone to get a 100 break in snooker.

Or do DIY but thats surely not the point :sick:

some people have two left feet

ducasi
7th-April-2005, 05:01 PM
What is Ceroc dancing all about? :)Um... Having fun, making a connection, leading and following, forgetting the world for those 3.5 minutes. How's that?


How do you lead someone with floppy arms? Visual/auditory leads/signals. In my case I went for moves which were easier leads and used "auditory leads" (a.k.a. telling her what I wanted her to do.)


... almost walk through her turns and spins. If you're talking about what I think you're talking about, that's a style/technique point, and certainly not "wrong". I can witter on about why, if you like? I'd be interested in hearing. To me it just looked like a distinct lack of enthusiasm.

Or maybe she just didn't like my style. Don't know. :confused:

ducasi
7th-April-2005, 05:12 PM
Or maybe someone should take them aside, and let them know what they're doing wrong at MJ? Sure, but not me - the beginner. :wink: I just want to bitch about it on the forum. :whistle:


A lot of people come to MJ as a bit of a hobby, a social night out, etc. And there's nothing wrong with this. They can get around the dance floor for a track, and it's not too bad. After all, it's only 3.5 minutes. And mostly, they dance with people who are more or less at the same level of themselves anyhow. And don't expect anything more. And all of this is totally fine (just restating that point). Yes, I agree. I have stepped back from my earlier position. Especially as they've been there much longer than me, they've got a perfect right to do whatever they want when they get on the dance floor without me wanting to chuck them out.

I still think they could do with some guidance... :nice:

I'm with Lorna. I believe that you can teach anyone to dance. Sure, but I don't think you can teach everyone to be a good dancer.

I don't want to waste my time learning to dance if I can't be reasonably good at it. If I'm no good I won't enjoy it. Maybe that's just me?

TheTramp
7th-April-2005, 05:45 PM
You could probably say you could teach anyone to get a 100 break in snooker.

Or do DIY but thats surely not the point :sick:

some people have two left feet
Guess I'm missing the point then.... What is it?

Yeah. I'm crap at both snooker, and DIY. But I'm sure that if I wanted to, I could learn. And people can learn how to dance, even if they aren't good at it to start, or even after some time at MJ classes....

Zuhal
7th-April-2005, 05:45 PM
Or maybe someone should take them aside, and let them know what they're doing wrong at MJ?

.

The problem is that us beginners do not necessarily have the knowledge, ability or diplomacy to sucessfully advise someone.

There are one or two people who I caught early and have been able to steer them toward being a very nice 3.5 min dance partner but so often I shrink from giving any advice.

I recently mishandled a situation where my partner launched herself into an unlead drop 3 beats early during a class rotation. It was a classic Beginner in an Intermediate class situation. After I saved her head I lost control of my mouth :o :blush:

What about wearing a badge that says "I welcome suggestions about my dancing" perhaps overprinted on a Rhino :)

Zuhal

TheTramp
7th-April-2005, 05:54 PM
Sure, but I don't think you can teach everyone to be a good dancer.
I'm not so sure about this statement. I think that you can teach people to be good dancers. Obviously some people will require more work that you'd probably want to put in...... But that doesn't mean that you couldn't if you had the time and resources....

jivecat
7th-April-2005, 06:14 PM
I still think they could do with some guidance... :nice:
Sure, but I don't think you can teach everyone to be a good dancer. I don't either. When you see how unlevel the playing field is in terms of physical skills even before children reach 7 years old, I don't see how you can smooth it out for adults who have deeply entrenched difficulties with the kind of physical skills needed for dancing. Although it does depend a bit on how high the standard would be to be considered "able to dance Ceroc".




I don't want to waste my time learning to dance if I can't be reasonably good at it. If I'm no good I won't enjoy it. Maybe that's just me?

I agree. If I'm going to learn to do something I prefer to be good at it, though I think that's not always a healthy psychological need.

Little Monkey
7th-April-2005, 06:14 PM
I'm with Lorna. I believe that you can teach anyone to dance. This does of course, depend on whether or not they want to, have the time or energy etc. to learn. I don't have a problem at all with those who just come most weeks to the one class, for a night out. I certainly would never even think about suggesting that they shouldn't come.

Guess it all just depends on what you want to achieve with your dancing really.

Sorry. Disagree with you (and Gadget, Lorna etc....). There are people out there who simply can't learn how to dance. I know a couple of such people. Even with one-to-one tuition, where the simplest things are broken down and explained, and with tuition in how to find the beat in music etc etc etc, some people will never learn to dance. Even ceroc :whistle: .

A girl I know has been doing ceroc for about three years. She still can't keep the rythm, understand even the simplest lead, spin or even do a simple return. :eek: When you "dance" with her, all you're really doing is wrestling her around the dance floor, pushing and shoving to get her to go where she's meant to go etc, all the time trying not to actually injure her. And even with a clear, strong lead and very "easy" music to a moderate tempo, she will always try to turn the wrong way, stop, miss the beat, and usually takes two (or more) beats to do a spin or turn.

Still, she claims to enjoy dancing, so she must be getting something out of it, which I guess is the main thing....

People like this are very few and far between, though. Thankfully.... :wink: And most people will be able to learn dancing, rythm etc, although some will never be anywear near what you'd call "good dancers".

Little Monkey

ChrisA
7th-April-2005, 06:32 PM
A girl I know has been doing ceroc for about three years. She still can't keep the rythm, understand even the simplest lead, spin or even do a simple return.
I agree with the Tramp on this one, although for the people that learn the most slowly, the amount of effort required to turn them into a good dancer might be so colossal that no one, including the person him- or herself, would be prepared to put the effort in.

I know a couple of girls that go to Ceroc that would be in this category, but I still believe that if they wanted to, and were prepared to work extremely hard, and if a teacher was prepared to put the effort into giving them the training they'd need it would be possible to sort out their dance problems.

For example, have you noticed how people that can walk just as easily and without awkwardness as anyone else, go all clumpy when they try to dance?

I think in these cases, and in the absence of an actual physical disability, the right patterns can be taught.

The problem lies in the fact that it feels humiliating and intensely tedious to go far enough back, to unlearn all the bad habits, and learn to move in ways that are consistent with nice dancing.

With someone that 'had no sense of rhythmn', yet wanted to develop one, I'd start with them in a quiet room with a metronome. I'd get them to practice clapping in time with it. I bet you would find that the vast majority of those that struggle with rhythm on the dance floor, could learn to do that.

If they can learn to clap in time with a metronome, then the next stage would be to get them to walk in time with it.

Then clap in time with music with a very obvious beat, then walk in time with it. Then move up to walking in time with music that isn't quite so obvious.

Etc, etc.

Of course, if Ceroc classes consisted of an exercise in clapping to a metronome beat, Ceroc would go out of business.

As Trampy said, "Obviously some people will require more work that you'd probably want to put in".

Lorna
7th-April-2005, 06:55 PM
With someone that 'had no sense of rhythmn', yet wanted to develop one, I'd start with them in a quiet room with a metronome. I'd get them to practice clapping in time with it. I bet you would find that the vast majority of those that struggle with rhythm on the dance floor, could learn to do that.

If they can learn to clap in time with a metronome, then the next stage would be to get them to walk in time with it.

Then clap in time with music with a very obvious beat, then walk in time with it. Then move up to walking in time with music that isn't quite so obvious.





Perfect,

couldn't have put it better myself. I'm sorry, but IMHO and of course professional one, :wink: I believe that everyone, no matter how bad, can learn to clap in time with music thus beginning to understand the very basics of rhythm. And this can be developed. I have had a classroom full of 3 and 4 year olds clapping in time to music not to mention a class of 'special needs' pupils. Of course this took most of the year to achieve and lots of input from myself and classroom assistants topped with lots of other musical experiences. If they can understand it then there is no excuse for adults. As long as they are willing to put in the effort, want to learn and are taught well. :wink:

Lotsa love Lorna x-x

Little Monkey
7th-April-2005, 06:55 PM
I agree with the Tramp on this one, although for the people that learn the most slowly, the amount of effort required to turn them into a good dancer might be so colossal that no one, including the person him- or herself, would be prepared to put the effort in.

With someone that 'had no sense of rhythmn', yet wanted to develop one, I'd start with them in a quiet room with a metronome. I'd get them to practice clapping in time with it. I bet you would find that the vast majority of those that struggle with rhythm on the dance floor, could learn to do that.

If they can learn to clap in time with a metronome, then the next stage would be to get them to walk in time with it.

Then clap in time with music with a very obvious beat, then walk in time with it. Then move up to walking in time with music that isn't quite so obvious.


Sorry, still disagree. Done the rythm training, but she simply can't grasp it. If you clap the rythm, she actually manages to clap it wrong.... One problem is of course that she can't tell left from right - and I'm not joking!!:eek: And she isn't just a bad dancer, she simply can't dance, after three years of classes, plus lots of extra help.... But fortunately, she's a very rare case!! And as I said, she seems to enjoy ceroc - possibly just the social aspect of it, but still...

LM

stewart38
7th-April-2005, 07:12 PM
Guess I'm missing the point then.... What is it?

Yeah. I'm crap at both snooker, and DIY. But I'm sure that if I wanted to, I could learn. And people can learn how to dance, even if they aren't good at it to start, or even after some time at MJ classes....


Accept some people cant dance like my brother

Yes you train him for a yr or what ever but surely we are talking about a natural propensity to dance or not.

Its no big deal

ChrisA
7th-April-2005, 07:18 PM
Sorry, still disagree. Done the rythm training, but she simply can't grasp it. If you clap the rythm, she actually manages to clap it wrong.... One problem is of course that she can't tell left from right
Well for an adult really to be unable to tell left from right is very unusual. I'm not a medical professional or a psychologist, but maybe there is an actual perceptive or cognitive disability there, that's mild enough to allow normal functioning in much of life, but shows up when trying to dance.

Glad she enjoys it, anyway. :flower:

ChrisA
7th-April-2005, 07:21 PM
As long as they are willing to put in the effort, want to learn and are taught well.
Yep, that's the key. :flower:

David Franklin
7th-April-2005, 07:22 PM
Sorry, still disagree. Done the rythm training, but she simply can't grasp it. If you clap the rythm, she actually manages to clap it wrong.... One problem is of course that she can't tell left from right - and I'm not joking!!:eek: And she isn't just a bad dancer, she simply can't dance, after three years of classes, plus lots of extra help.... But fortunately, she's a very rare case!! And as I said, she seems to enjoy ceroc - possibly just the social aspect of it, but still...I would agree - there will always been a few unfortunates who just cannot get the basics. In my experience, they are very rare though. Bluntly, if someone has been dancing a few weeks and thinks their partners can't do MJ properly, then they should probably be looking inwards rather than outwards.

Remember, "it's always the lead's fault!".

Dave

Little Monkey
7th-April-2005, 08:14 PM
I would agree - there will always been a few unfortunates who just cannot get the basics. In my experience, they are very rare though. Bluntly, if someone has been dancing a few weeks and thinks their partners can't do MJ properly, then they should probably be looking inwards rather than outwards.

Remember, "it's always the lead's fault!".

Dave

Woo-hoooo!!!! Someone who actually agrees with me!!! Yep, these people are EXTREMELY rare, but they do actually exist!

And yes - I always blame the lead! :wink: :whistle: :whistle:

LM

David Bailey
7th-April-2005, 09:46 PM
Woo-hoooo!!!! Someone who actually agrees with me!!! Yep, these people are EXTREMELY rare, but they do actually exist!

Hey, not only do I agree with you, that was the main point of this thread - that there are a small but definite percentage who can't dance.


And yes - I always blame the lead! :wink: :whistle: :whistle:

Yes, I think I got that... :grin:

David Bailey
7th-April-2005, 09:51 PM
A girl I know has been doing ceroc for about three years. She still can't keep the rythm, understand even the simplest lead, spin or even do a simple return. :eek: When you "dance" with her, all you're really doing is wrestling her around the dance floor, pushing and shoving to get her to go where she's meant to go etc, all the time trying not to actually injure her. And even with a clear, strong lead and very "easy" music to a moderate tempo, she will always try to turn the wrong way, stop, miss the beat, and usually takes two (or more) beats to do a spin or turn.
Sounds familiar - good God, there's two of them! :eek:

ducasi
7th-April-2005, 11:17 PM
I would agree - there will always been a few unfortunates who just cannot get the basics. In my experience, they are very rare though. I'm glad we agree. Though there does seem to be some disagreement over how common this problem is. I don't have enough experience to comment.

Bluntly, if someone has been dancing a few weeks and thinks their partners can't do MJ properly, then they should probably be looking inwards rather than outwards. I'll take this comment as aimed at me. :nice:

I don't claim to be a great or even a good dancer. I'm sure the dancers I've been having problems with would be much better in an expert's hands.

That said, there seem to be a lot of people in this other thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4797) who think I'm quite perceptive and observant. :flower:

Back in this thread, a number of people also seem to agree with me that there is a fair number of people who turn up at NJ nights who just don't seem to have it. I'm not prepared to dismiss the possibility that I'm not wrong and I actually have met one or two of these people who just can't dance, but still love MJ.


Remember, "it's always the lead's fault!". Yes, and I hope to get better at leading poor followers. :nice:

<hr>
The point Stewart48 made about snooker I think is important. Even if you did manage to teach me enough snooker to get a 100 break, that's all I'd be able to do - I'm really bad at snooker. (Really enjoy pool though!) I think there's a natural ability in a game like this that you just can't teach. One necessary ability is having good enough eyesight to focus from one end of the tape to the other. That's a hard one to teach!

Likewise, in dancing, you might be able to teach anyone to dance, but without the natural ability, they're never going to be good at it.

<hr>
What do people think the balance is between "experienced" poor leads and poor followers, who no matter how long they've been dancing, and for whatever reason, show no sign of improvement?

I've got the feeling that poor leaders are much more likely to run away after a few weeks or months have passed, while poor followers will stick around for much longer.

(Which takes us back to the original question posed - how long should it take to realise that you just don't have it?)

Gadget
7th-April-2005, 11:26 PM
I don't want to waste my time learning to dance if I can't be reasonably good at it. If I'm no good I won't enjoy it. Maybe that's just me?
So what is this "Good" dancer able to do that you are not? If you reach that "reasonably good" status, will you be satisfied and simply just dance?
Many people reach that point and simply remain with no desire to improve, and having a great time because they can dance with people and have fun.

ducasi
7th-April-2005, 11:56 PM
So what is this "Good" dancer able to do that you are not? If you reach that "reasonably good" status, will you be satisfied and simply just dance?
Many people reach that point and simply remain with no desire to improve, and having a great time because they can dance with people and have fun. For one thing, put a serious of moves together without either forgetting what move they were meant to do next (in class) or freezing up because they can't think what move to do next.

That'd be a start.

Once I reach that point I'll see if I want to get better. I have no ambitions to greatness.

ducasi
8th-April-2005, 12:10 AM
I haven't made it explicit before now, but when I posed this question I was thinking about two people in particular.

One is a lady dancer I met in my class. Talking privately to a couple of experienced dancers, I feel that they may agree with my opinion of her abilities. I can't say for sure, and I'm not going to put words in other people's mouths.

The other dancer is male, a relative beginner who despite seemingly being able to learn the moves easily enough, doesn't seem to be able to work them together very well.

Yep, that one is me. I'm wondering how long I should stick at it before I throw in the towel. I'm taking the advice in my signature and trying to be smart enough to know if I'm being stupid.

MartinHarper
8th-April-2005, 12:27 AM
She isn't just a bad dancer, she simply can't dance, after three years of classes, plus lots of extra help....

Are we talking extra help as in extensive one-to-one tuition from dance teachers? Are we talking extra help as in informal feedback from her peers? Or something else?

----

To the original question - personally I'm not aware of any women who are regular dancers, below intermediate level, and not improving. That said, some women improve much slower than others.

I wonder how much the attitude of the lead makes a difference. I expect big things of my partners, even beginners, and throw lots of challenges their way, including stuff that I "know" they can't handle. If I took a more sane approach, and only lead stuff I knew my partner was capable of, would that hide her increasing abilities from my eyes?

El Salsero Gringo
8th-April-2005, 12:48 AM
Yep, that one is me. I'm wondering how long I should stick at it before I throw in the towel. I'm taking the advice in my signature and trying to be smart enough to know if I'm being stupid.Everyone is going to take a different length of time, obviously, but it took me at least six months to feel that I was a 'decent beginner'. The reason I never gave up is because throughout that six months it never occured to me that that I wouldn't get there in the end.

ducasi
8th-April-2005, 07:39 AM
Hi, I just posted this in my "first-time impressions" thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=114959#post114959). I think it's also appropriate here.

Sorry, it seems I'm going to get the reputation of complaining about poor beginners or even worse, poor non-beginners. :sad:

I guess what I'm trying to do is make my own dancing seem better in my head by comparing myself against others whom I perceive as being in some way worse than myself.

If I can convince myself I'm sufficiently better than enough other people then I'll be relatively good. And if I don't feel myself to be relatively good I won't enjoy myself. And then I'll quit.

Sorry, it's just the way I am. :blush: I'll try to moderate my comments in the future.

I really do look forward to watching these beginners improve. :nice: I've said before I'm very impatient and a perfectionist. I want to be good now. I'm not going to give this six months.

Currently I'm thinking the end of the month... By that time I'll have 10 weeks of classes plus two beginners' workshops under my belt. I feel I should be relatively competent by then.

El Salsero Gringo
8th-April-2005, 09:09 AM
Hi, I just posted this in my "first-time impressions" thread (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=114959#post114959). I think it's also appropriate here.
I've said before I'm very impatient and a perfectionist. I want to be good now. I'm not going to give this six months.

Currently I'm thinking the end of the month... By that time I'll have 10 weeks of classes plus two beginners' workshops under my belt. I feel I should be relatively competent by then.I think I've made this point before, but if you're learning to dance because you want to be a brilliant/good/competent dancer then inevitably you will always be disappointed and angry that you're not as good as you wish to be, and eventually you'll give up.

If instead you're learning to dance because you enjoy learning to dance, then you'll never get frustrated, and you'll never give up. In other words, appreciate the journey and don't anticipate your arrival at some arbitrary destination, which you'll find is always changing shape and moving just over the next hill in any case.

David Bailey
8th-April-2005, 09:11 AM
I believe that everyone, no matter how bad, can learn to clap in time with music thus beginning to understand the very basics of rhythm.
... <snip excellent explanation> ...
As long as they are willing to put in the effort, want to learn and are taught well.
:worthy: I think you've convinced me. I've modified my position now, to "some peope are really hard to teach rhythm to", which I guess just represents the end of a bell curve. Of course, the difference between "really slow" and "never" may not be significant, and the effort needed with some people would presumably be totally unrealistic for most MJ situations. However, everyone can be saved, so that's a nice thought :)

Thinking about it, I remember dancing with a girl when I first started, who had great following skills, fantastic close-body movements, but a serious problem with rhythm. I remember at the time needing to totally change my moves and lead to adjust to this style. Lo and behold, a few years later, I dance with her again and she's much better, lovely dancer in all. So I guess rhythm can be learnt...

Oh, and...?
Remember, "it's always the lead's fault!".
Grrrrr....

ChrisA
8th-April-2005, 09:30 AM
I think I've made this point before, but if you're learning to dance because you want to be a brilliant/good/competent dancer ...
If instead you're learning to dance because you enjoy learning to dance, then
Why are the two mutually exclusive?

El Salsero Gringo
8th-April-2005, 09:35 AM
Why are the two mutually exclusive?They aren't - they're just too extremes of a spectrum. I enjoy dancing, and I enjoy learning and improving (in dance and other things.) I also look forward to some day being a better ballroom/latin dancer, salsa dancer, even better MJ dancer and so on.
But I'm not "enduring" my dancing now just to achieve some standard in the future. What makes me come back again and again is that I had a good time during the weeks before and not because I enrolled on a three-year or six-month course that will deliver me as a "good dancer" at the end but is like pulling teeth along the way.

In other words, I'm loving each step of the 'journey' to being a better dancer more than I'm worried about how long it will take or how good I'll be when I get to the journey's end.

stewart38
8th-April-2005, 09:48 AM
[QUOTE=MartinHarper]
I wonder how much the attitude of the lead makes a difference. I expect big things of my partners, even beginners, and throw lots of challenges their way, including stuff that I "know" they can't handle./QUOTE]


Yes that approach made my beginner friend not return as she was thrown around even though i told her not all people will do that. He knew (a taxi dancer) she was a total beginner but i assume thought it was 'fun' to do drops and leans on her.

David Franklin
8th-April-2005, 10:02 AM
I've said before I'm very impatient and a perfectionist. I want to be good now. I'm not going to give this six months.

Currently I'm thinking the end of the month... By that time I'll have 10 weeks of classes plus two beginners' workshops under my belt. I feel I should be relatively competent by then.[/quote]You and I may have different criteria for "good", but I'm not sure I can think of any male dancer who was good after 6 months, let alone 10 weeks. (People with previous dance experience excluded). TheTramp might be an exception, and I'm sure there are others I don't know about, but I'd say you're asking an awful lot of yourself.

Lynn
8th-April-2005, 10:12 AM
I wonder how much the attitude of the lead makes a difference. I expect big things of my partners, even beginners, and throw lots of challenges their way, including stuff that I "know" they can't handle.

Yes that approach made my beginner friend not return as she was thrown around even though i told her not all people will do that. He knew (a taxi dancer) she was a total beginner but i assume thought it was 'fun' to do drops and leans on her. I don't think Martin was referring to drops and leans? More leading moves the beginner hasn't yet learnt. This happened to me when I was a beginner and I think it helped me to learn to follow the lead and not just do the move because I 'knew' what was coming next - because I didn't!

TheTramp
8th-April-2005, 10:19 AM
TheTramp might be an exception
:blush: Thanks. I had a lot of help off a certain person though.....

Petal
8th-April-2005, 10:39 AM
At the other end of the spectrum, some of the beginners, even after three or four weeks still don't seem to understand the "no thumbs" rule and want to cling on to you for dear life!

Shouldn't someone take them aside and tell them to go to a non-partner dance, like Line Dancing? :wink:

Most beginners still using thumbs after a few weeks is usually down to being nervous, if you show and explain to them how using thumbs to grasp a partners hand can cause difficulty or even injury when doing turns and returns, they will get there eventually, it's just a case of reinforcing how they should be dancing.

After watching Strictly Dance Fever i'm not sure you're right about "Line Dancing" being non-partner dancing, and anyway we should be encouraging beginners to stay not putting them off.

Gadget
8th-April-2005, 10:44 AM
In other words, I'm loving each step of the 'journey' to being a better dancer more than I'm worried about how long it will take or how good I'll be when I get to the journey's end.You expect it to end? :what: :confused:

Petal
8th-April-2005, 10:45 AM
Or maybe she just didn't like my style. Don't know. :confused:

Or, maybe your lead wasn't clear. :confused:

bigdjiver
8th-April-2005, 11:15 AM
Most beginners still using thumbs after a few weeks is usually down to being nervous, if you show and explain to them how using thumbs to grasp a partners hand can cause difficulty or even injury when doing turns and returns, they will get there eventually, it's just a case of reinforcing how they should be dancing. ... :devil: I learned to jive by watching others. My powers of observation did not extend to "no thumbs". I can let go if I think about it and do so naturally where thumbs are an encumberance. What I have found is that if I am clinging onto the lady, she does not have to cling onto me, and my beginner partners do not acquire that bad habit. This also makes it easier for me to lead intermediate ladies through moves that they do not know.:devil:
That being said, thumbs can cause pain, and are a bad habit best not acquired.

David Bailey
8th-April-2005, 11:30 AM
My powers of observation did not extend to "no thumbs". I can let go if I think about it and do so naturally where thumbs are an encumberance. What I have found is that if I am clinging onto the lady, she does not have to cling onto me, and my beginner partners do not acquire that bad habit. This also makes it easier for me to lead intermediate ladies through moves that they do not know.


Yes, I suspect the "no thumbs" thing is another myth / lie-to-children / useful principle (take your pick). It's like writing - you learn grammar rules so you know what the basic rules should be, then you can learn to bend / break them when you get to a good enough level, because you know that the flow and style is more important than the rules...


Like all these things, if you're good enough, you can get away with anything :)

Thinking about it, I don't know if I use thumbs or not - the whole grip-changing thing becomes pretty automatic after a while. I would certainly grip firmer for certain partners / moves, however. But yes, over-gripping Thumbs Of Death are not nice things to deal with...

bigdjiver
8th-April-2005, 11:35 AM
I think I've made this point before, but if you're learning to dance because you want to be a brilliant/good/competent dancer then inevitably you will always be disappointed and angry that you're not as good as you wish to be, and eventually you'll give up.

If instead you're learning to dance because you enjoy learning to dance, then you'll never get frustrated, and you'll never give up. In other words, appreciate the journey and don't anticipate your arrival at some arbitrary destination, which you'll find is always changing shape and moving just over the next hill in any case.The repmeister said I had to spread it ...

If you are dancing because you ejoy learning, then you can only be enjoying it if you are learning. If you are always doing it, and always learning, then there is nowhere else to go to but to being a brilliant/good/competent dancer.

It is a rule for life :- The destination is always uncertain. Enjoy the journey.

El Salsero Gringo
8th-April-2005, 11:38 AM
You expect it to end? :what: :confused:One day, without a doubt - I will dance my last dance.

(Boy, now do I feel maudlin.)

Little Monkey
8th-April-2005, 12:00 PM
Are we talking extra help as in extensive one-to-one tuition from dance teachers? Are we talking extra help as in informal feedback from her peers?


Both

LM

ducasi
8th-April-2005, 12:49 PM
If instead you're learning to dance because you enjoy learning to dance, then you'll never get frustrated, and you'll never give up. Just now, I'm not sure if I am.

Franck
8th-April-2005, 12:51 PM
Sorry, still disagree. Done the rythm training, but she simply can't grasp it. If you clap the rythm, she actually manages to clap it wrong.... One problem is of course that she can't tell left from right - and I'm not joking!!:eek: And she isn't just a bad dancer, she simply can't dance, after three years of classes, plus lots of extra help.... But fortunately, she's a very rare case!! And as I said, she seems to enjoy ceroc - possibly just the social aspect of it, but still... :sad:

I can honestly say that there isn't any woman I have danced with that fits that description, or even comes close, and I assume I must have danced with the person you're describing.

My views is that everyone can dance, and whether they can become brilliant or not is irrelevant in my opinion. As long as they can share in the joy of dance and give some pleasure to some partners, then I have achieved my goal.

I used to think that some people would never get it, but having seen some of them persist and now become hugely popular dancers, I have changed my mind completely. Those that struggle can be taught and will improve. Unfortunately, many give up and slip through the net, others we don't have the time / resources to catch and help improve, but I truly believe everyone can dance.

ducasi
8th-April-2005, 01:00 PM
I've said before I'm very impatient and a perfectionist. I want to be good now. I'm not going to give this six months.

Currently I'm thinking the end of the month... By that time I'll have 10 weeks of classes plus two beginners' workshops under my belt. I feel I should be relatively competent by then.
You and I may have different criteria for "good", but I'm not sure I can think of any male dancer who was good after 6 months, let alone 10 weeks. (People with previous dance experience excluded). TheTramp might be an exception, and I'm sure there are others I don't know about, but I'd say you're asking an awful lot of yourself. OK, I don't expect to be good in 10 weeks, but I want to be good enough to enjoy it and I at least expect to be "relatively competent".

Commis Chef
8th-April-2005, 01:17 PM
I just feel something like rhythm is inherent; if you don't have it, you'll never be a dancer. I remember a guy at Ashtons many years back who really didn't have rhythm, despite many years' of dancing - I'm not saying there are lots of people like this, but I think there are a few...

:yeah:

When watching children develop physically there are obvious differences in muscle tone, co-ordination and spacial awareness. Those who have most difficulty are termed dyspraxic i.e clumsy. I suspect those children will never be really capable of dancing well.

There are people who have been dancing for years who continue to do 'moves' in a jolting, staccato action, no flow and no connection with what the music is suggesting.

I have to draw what seems to be the unpopular conclusion, that there are some people who will never learn to dance (well) :sad:

Lynn
8th-April-2005, 01:27 PM
I have to draw what seems to be the unpopular conclusion, that there are some people who will never learn to dance (well) :sad: Even so, they will probably still be able to dance with enjoyment. I know someone who walks slowly using two sticks. When she gets up on the dance floor she can only wiggle about to the music, supported by her sticks. But she gets up and dances (she is still dancing even if not moving her feet, she is moving her body in time to the music) and loves it! She maybe can't 'learn to dance' - but she still enjoys dancing. Its not just about ability - its about loving what you are doing!

(And OK, I know partner dance brings in another dimension)

Commis Chef
8th-April-2005, 01:52 PM
I agree completely. People should do what they can within their own capability and those who are disadvantaged should be applauded for their courage. People go to dance sessions for many reasons already mentioned. If they enjoy it then no one should stop them.

However the question is 'who can't dance' and IMHO there are those who can't. Just as I can't lift heavy weights or run very fast. Nothing I do will change my physical attributes to provide me with that capability.

TheTramp
8th-April-2005, 01:56 PM
However the question is 'who can't dance' and IMHO there are those who can't. Just as I can't lift heavy weights or run very fast. Nothing I do will change my physical attributes to provide me with that capability.
Not true...

Practise will enable you to improve your skills in both these areas. Go to the gym for 6 weeks (3 times a week), and lift weights. I guarentee you that after 6 weeks, you'll be lifting much heavier weights that you are at the start of the 6 weeks. Practise running, and you'll get faster at that too.

Both of these skills do have an 'upper' limit - in the amount that you'll ever be able to lift, or the fastest you'll ever be able to run. However, I'm not sure that dancing does, as you can always move on - do different styles for example. There's far more dancing to be learnt than any one person could ever learn in a lifetime...

Msfab
8th-April-2005, 02:21 PM
Anybody caught doing this? :rolleyes:

http://www.glumbert.com/media/dancewhiteboy.html

Little Monkey
8th-April-2005, 05:29 PM
:sad:

I can honestly say that there isn't any woman I have danced with that fits that description, or even comes close, and I assume I must have danced with the person you're describing.



Nope, I don't think she's ever danced with you. So maybe that's why she's still not learned to dance?? :wink: :whistle: :rofl:

LM :kiss:

TheTramp
8th-April-2005, 05:30 PM
Nope, I don't think she's ever danced with you. So maybe that's why she's still not learned to dance?? :wink: :whistle: :rofl:

LM :kiss:
How about me? Has she danced with me? :rolleyes:

Little Monkey
9th-April-2005, 07:20 PM
How about me? Has she danced with me? :rolleyes:

Don't think so...... Some people have all the luck! :whistle:

LM

MartinHarper
14th-April-2005, 10:16 AM
Earlier in this thread, I promised to witter about stepping through spins for ducasi... as per usual, just the opinion of a random intermediate.

When someone spins on a foot, they're more or less limited to keeping their spin foot in one place. This becomes a hindrance when doing moves such as travelling returns. Accordingly, (gross generalisation time) all women step through the spin when they are lead to do some move that involves turning and moving at the same time.

Going back to stationary spins, stepping through them (arguably) makes a follower feel more consistent, as she's using the same technique for both sorts of spin. It is also (arguably) easier to keep balance when stepping through spins. Neither of those things are wildly convincing for me, but they indicate to me that it's a legit choice. Given that MJ is a "no footwork" dance, I can't see a reason why stepped spins could be considered "wrong".

Tiggerbabe
14th-April-2005, 11:05 AM
Accordingly, (gross generalisation time) all women step through the spin when they are lead to do some move that involves turning and moving at the same time.
Very gross generalisation - I disagree totally. From their first beginners class our ladies are told to step/move first and then spin. Trying to move and spin is what causes them many problems and leads them to believe that they "can't" spin.


I can't see a reason why stepped spins could be considered "wrong".
Spinning is usually the thing that concerns most of the beginners I've spoken to (men and women). One of the excercises I've done when learning spinning is to build up gradually, doing only half turns each time until you feel confident enough to go for the full turn.

I'm firmly in the "everyone can learn to dance" camp :clap: :D

Simon r
14th-April-2005, 11:08 AM
:yeah:
Very gross generalisation - I disagree totally. From their first beginners class our ladies are told to step/move first and then spin. Trying to move and spin is what causes them many problems and leads them to believe that they "can't" spin.

Spinning is usually the thing that concerns most of the beginners I've spoken to (men and women). One of the excercises I've done when learning spinning is to build up gradually, doing only half turns each time until you feel confident enough to go for the full turn.

I'm firmly in the "everyone can learn to dance" camp :clap: :D

David Bailey
14th-April-2005, 11:51 AM
Given that MJ is a "no footwork" dance, I can't see a reason why stepped spins could be considered "wrong".
Aren't "stepped spins" the same as, well, turns? Or is there a difference?

El Salsero Gringo
14th-April-2005, 01:57 PM
Aren't "stepped spins" the same as, well, turns? Or is there a difference?Good question, and it sounds like this is turning into an argument based on semantics, rather than good technique. If what one means by a spin is what a ballet dancer calls a pirouette then of course it has to be done on one foot, on the spot. But you can lead travelling spins - or travelling turns - or whatever you want to call them, in which the lady turns as she moves across the floor, and very nice they can be too.

As far as beginners go, from my experiences in the past as a Taxi Dancer, what they want to learn to do - and worry about being unable to do - is to pirouette on one foot. So if that's what they want to learn (because it looks good and 'feels' difficult) then saying it's OK to step through a spin doesn't offer them any assistance in achieving that goal.

foxylady
14th-April-2005, 04:59 PM
Given that MJ is a "no footwork" dance, I can't see a reason why stepped spins could be considered "wrong".

IMHO it depends on the floor, whether you are travelling, and your shoes whether you do a spin spin or a stepped spin.... If you have sticky shoes, and/or a sticky floor, a stepped spin, using baby-steps, is sometimes the only way to get round....

Foxy

MartinHarper
15th-April-2005, 04:40 PM
Very gross generalisation - I disagree totally. From their first beginners class our ladies are told to step/move first and then spin.

Ahh - fair point. I was thinking of the cases where women follow the lead as given. Obviously they always have the option to reinterpret a lead to move and rotate into a lead to move and then rotate, and that's cool too.

Lynn
15th-April-2005, 11:04 PM
I'm firmly in the "everyone can learn to dance" camp :clap: :D So am I, but am beginning to think that I can't learn to spin :tears: And it can't just be about balance as you need good balance when horse riding and I did that for years. I know, I know - practice, practice, practice!

Tiggerbabe
15th-April-2005, 11:35 PM
tam beginning to think that I can't learn to spin :tears:
Nope, sorry, not buying that one either - practice, happy grooves and more practice and then go on-line and book a flight to Scotland :wink: :D

Lynn
15th-April-2005, 11:51 PM
Nope, sorry, not buying that one either - practice, happy grooves and more practice and then go on-line and book a flight to Scotland :wink: :D Yes, definitely must get over to Scotland later this year - for one of the weekend events or something. :grin:

Gadget
16th-April-2005, 12:48 AM
BFG?
{Big Forum Gathering}