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Gadget
6th-April-2005, 10:10 AM
inspired from wendy's "dancing by numbers" thread:

Should the "lead" swap between couples during a dance? or should the roles remain fixed?

ChrisA
6th-April-2005, 10:47 AM
inspired from wendy's "dancing by numbers" thread:

Should the "lead" swap between couples during a dance? or should the roles remain fixed?

Why on earth has this got anything to do with "should"?

If you want to swap, swap. If you don't, don't.

MartinHarper
6th-April-2005, 11:08 AM
Proper lead swapping is a lot of fun, and I'm all in favour of it. It does require two dancers who are both able and willing to dance both roles. The act of lead swapping itself is something that needs to be learnt: giving the lead away, accepting it when it's given, hijacking and being hijacked. In the absence of classes on these things, prepare to experiment and get things wrong.

It is important to me that whoever is taking the lead role should actually be leading, and that both dancers should know who is leading at any particular time. Suppose I am in follow mode, and I want to take over the lead for the duration of a break. First, I need to take over the lead, and my partner needs to realise this. Next I need to lead my partner to stay in-place whilst we strut our stuff. Finally, I need to return the lead to my partner, or else keep leading.

Personally, I have difficulty recognising when I have been given the lead - often we spend a few beats with neither of us leading, before I realise and pick things up again.

Gadget
6th-April-2005, 12:45 PM
Why on earth has this got anything to do with "should"?

If you want to swap, swap. If you don't, don't.
"Should" as in to be expected or not:
Am I being nieve in expecting to maintain my role as a leader throught the dance? Am I supressing my partner by dominating the dance as a lead? If you want to swap, do you stop and discuss it? discuss it before-hand? Who says you should swap? What happens if one partner wants to take the lead or submit to following, but the other wants to maintain their current role?

"Should" sets up the guidelines to work in-between - If I move the lady's hand, she should follow it. If I remove my lead, should she take over as lead? If she hi-jacks the lead, should I now take the role of a follower?


It does require two dancers who are both able and willing to dance both roles. The act of lead swapping itself is something that needs to be learnt: giving the lead away, accepting it when it's given, hijacking and being hijacked. In the absence of classes on these things, prepare to experiment and get things wrong.:yeah: ...Except I can't follow :blush:. But :worthy: to all the people who can dual role. I'm sure that there have been a couple of workshops on it.

Is a lady "taking controll" of the dance* actually taking the lead, or are they just "breaking" the lead? {or is that "breaking in" the lead? :whistle::devil:}
(* back-leading included)

Tazmanian Devil
6th-April-2005, 01:47 PM
Is a lady "taking controll" of the dance* actually taking the lead, or are they just "breaking" the lead? {or is that "breaking in" the lead? :whistle::devil:}
(* back-leading included)
:rofl: :rofl:
I swap leads alot on the floor, Mainly with women who know the guys moves though as I only know one guy who can follow we call it sabotage.
It's a shame really i think it would be lovely to play sabotage with more fellas it's just that whole issue of learning the moves. I mean women line up and do the male role but some people get a bit funny if the guy decides to walk around the line up doing the womens bit. :sad: As we found out at charlton back last summer when The Wacko decided to have a laugh and learn how to follow. :kiss: :hug:

Graham
6th-April-2005, 01:48 PM
Isn't this like asking whether you should do drops? If you want to do drops, don't dance with someone who doesn't want to perform them. Similarly, if you don't want to give up the lead, don't dance with a partner who likes to take control from time to time. Like ChrisA says, should doesn't really come into it.

CJ
6th-April-2005, 02:10 PM
should doesn't really come into it.


Point of order: Should "should" come into it???

El Salsero Gringo
6th-April-2005, 02:13 PM
Isn't this like asking whether you should do drops? If you want to do drops, don't dance with someone who doesn't want to perform them. Similarly, if you don't want to give up the lead, don't dance with a partner who likes to take control from time to time. Like ChrisA says, should doesn't really come into it.Well there's one reason why you 'should' do it - that kind of flexibility probably makes you a better dancer overall, for lots of reasons; but it's not exactly a moral imperative.

MartinHarper
6th-April-2005, 02:16 PM
Is a lady "taking control" of the dance (back-leading included) actually taking the lead?

Back-leading is not proper leading.


Some people get a bit funny if the guy decides to walk around the line up doing the womens bit.

Funny looks are a minor problem. The bigger obstacle is that some organisers do not allow guys to do this at all.

Lou
6th-April-2005, 03:26 PM
Isn't this like asking whether you should do drops? If you want to do drops, don't dance with someone who doesn't want to perform them. Similarly, if you don't want to give up the lead, don't dance with a partner who likes to take control from time to time. Like ChrisA says, should doesn't really come into it.
Maybe all dancers should agree a safety word at the beginning of a dance that they can use when they're being taken out of their comfort zone... :wink: So, Gadge, you can use it if you don't like to submit to the lady taking command from time to time.... :whistle:

Sometimes I change the tempo & take more beats to do a Return, or add some more spins, or overturn a Return & stick a Ronde onto the end, or spot a break & wiggle for a second. That's not Leading. It's playing.

Sometimes I do a Sabotage Move like turning a Loophole (Octopus) into a Tandem, or a Fig of 8 (I turn/you turn) Resistor. That's stealing the Lead for a tiny amount of time, but I expect the man to take it back straight away.

And sometimes, with only a few consenting partners, we actually switch roles during the dance. Like Tazmanian Devil says, it's easier when you're dancing with another woman who knows both roles, but you do get the rare and precious odd man who's happy to follow. :nice:

Sparkles
6th-April-2005, 04:10 PM
I was invited to 'lead' a dance (whist maintaining the lady's role) yesterday, to which I agreed as it was a track I particularly liked and knew well.
We ended up having more of a fight than a dance, as the guy seemed to forget he'd given the lead to me and rather than being able to manoever the dance the way I wanted I eventually gave up trying and let him lead it.
Don't think I'll bother trying that again.
A good experiment, but not such a great outcome. Oh well, it was worth a try.
S. x

Lynn
6th-April-2005, 04:22 PM
Sometimes I change the tempo & take more beats to do a Return, or add some more spins, or overturn a Return & stick a Ronde onto the end, or spot a break & wiggle for a second. That's not Leading. It's playing. I do all those too. I'm just starting to get a bit more confident to 'play' but I soon pick up if the guy doesn't like it (or rather, doesn't know what to do) and stick to following perfectly (well, trying to!) the rest of the dance.

Best thing to swap the roles would be to have an intermediate class 'swap' roles - ie women dance lead and men follow. Not every week, but not as a one off either, maybe once every couple of months. Might not work, but just a suggestion. I think it would improve a guys lead, to learn to follow and vice versa.

Lory
6th-April-2005, 04:32 PM
Maybe all dancers should agree a safety word at the beginning of a dance that they can use when they're being taken out of their comfort zone... :wink: So, Gadge, you can use it if you don't like to submit to the lady taking command from time to time.... :whistle:


:yeah: :rofl: :rofl: :worthy: :rofl: :rofl:


I've now got a very humorous mental image of the next Ceroc theme night! :whistle:

Gadget
6th-April-2005, 11:03 PM
Maybe all dancers should agree a safety word at the beginning of a dance
Choices, choices, choices... what word would echo best shouted accross the dance floor? Suggestions?

The point is not that you insert a wiggle or slow turn here and there - it's the timing of it and the dissruption it can cause to the lead. How do you know if a man is ready for your wiggle to be unleashed on him?

Would you do it to a beginner? Would you feel the need to do it with an "advanced" dancer? Do you take over when you want to enjoy the music more than the dance?

{I don't honestly mind - I'm just taking an argumentative stance :devil:}

Graham
6th-April-2005, 11:19 PM
I'm just taking an argumentative stance
How novel :rolleyes: :wink:

Graham
6th-April-2005, 11:20 PM
I've now got a very humorous mental image of the next Ceroc theme night! :whistle:
:angry: You're a very bad girl, Lory - you deserve to be .... what do you mean that's making it worse? :confused: :wink:

spindr
6th-April-2005, 11:22 PM
{I don't honestly mind - I'm just taking an argumentative stance :devil:}

There is an easy way to stop the lady playing/backleading -- but not many of them will appreciate an entire dance of windmills :)

SpinDr.

Gadget
7th-April-2005, 12:32 AM
{I don't honestly mind - I'm just taking an argumentative stance :devil:}Bad form quoting one's self, but just because I'm looking at things from a different angle does not make that view any less valid: I am still curious to the answers to my post above:

Would you feel the need to change roles when dancing with an "advanced" dancer?

MartinHarper
7th-April-2005, 12:39 AM
There is an easy way to stop the lady playing/backleading -- but not many of them will appreciate an entire dance of windmills

Heh. The easiest way to make me backlead is to overspin me. I doubt I'd make it to the end of the second windmill... :)

Lory
7th-April-2005, 12:42 AM
:angry: You're a very bad girl, Lory - you deserve to be .... what do you mean that's making it worse? :confused: :wink:
Now now Graham, what's your safety word going to be then? :devil: :wink:

Sparkles
7th-April-2005, 09:58 AM
Something tells me it's not long before this thread'll be moved upstairs at this rate :rolleyes:

David Bailey
7th-April-2005, 09:58 AM
what's your safety word going to be then? :devil: :wink:
"Philadephia"? "Boise"? "Palestine"? Mmm, Marcia Cross :drool:

I remember seeing an episode of Buffy a few years back (mmm, buffy :drool: ) where there was a mention of safe words - I was amazed they got that in US network TV aimed (ostensibly) at a younger audience. But then after you've shown an underage girl sleeping with a dead person, mentioning safe words is probably pretty low on the ol' shock-o-meter.

Wow, this is serious thread drift, I blame Lory...

Lou
7th-April-2005, 10:07 AM
The point is not that you insert a wiggle or slow turn here and there - it's the timing of it and the dissruption it can cause to the lead. How do you know if a man is ready for your wiggle to be unleashed on him?

Would you do it to a beginner? Would you feel the need to do it with an "advanced" dancer? Do you take over when you want to enjoy the music more than the dance?
I'd do it when I felt like it. :na: It would be highly unlikely I'd it with a beginner. I'd do it when it felt appropriate. For example, I did it to Sherif on Tuesday to Quanso Quando Quando & it provoked a "woohoo", and some playing of his own.


There is an easy way to stop the lady playing/backleading -- but not many of them will appreciate an entire dance of windmills :)
Someone did that to me once. By the end of the third one I just gave him a withering look & walked off the dance floor.


Wow, this is serious thread drift, I blame Lory...
Me too. :whistle: Bad Lory! :devil: Tut!

Lory
7th-April-2005, 10:24 AM
I'd do it when I felt like it. :na:

It would be highly unlikely I'd do it with a beginner.

I'd do it when it felt appropriate.

For example, I did it to Sherif on Tuesday to Quanso Quando Quando & it provoked a "woohoo", and some playing of his own.



Me too. :whistle: Bad Lory! :devil: Tut!
Moi? :innocent: Hmm Just re read your own last post! :eek: :devil: :whistle: :rofl:

Lou
7th-April-2005, 10:51 AM
Moi? :innocent: Hmm Just re read your own last post! :eek: :devil: :whistle: :rofl:
:innocent: :innocent: :innocent:

I'm sure I don't know what you mean! :flower:

Now, have we convinced Gadget yet?

Gadget
7th-April-2005, 12:21 PM
Now, have we convinced Gadget yet?
...wha? Sorry, distracted by you doing it all over the place. :innocent:

Convinced me of what?

JoC
7th-April-2005, 01:11 PM
Best thing to swap the roles would be to have an intermediate class 'swap' roles - ie women dance lead and men follow. Not every week, but not as a one off either, maybe once every couple of months. Might not work, but just a suggestion. I think it would improve a guys lead, to learn to follow and vice versa.

Has anyone ever run a workshop specifically on total role reversal? Not as in switching roles within a particular dance but as in basically teaching ladies to lead and men to follow?

Don't know if some people are a bit put off dabbling with the 'reverse' role in the regular classes because they're a little uncomfortable with dancing with someone of the same sex (I'm not fussy!, and I'm going to have a go soon...), or they don't want to make other people uncomfortable. Am I being too sensitive here!?

What I'm trying to say is I can imagine a workshop environment might be good for this sort of thing. :flower: Don't know what the demand would be...?

Tazmanian Devil
7th-April-2005, 01:32 PM
Would you feel the need to change roles when dancing with an "advanced" dancer?
It's not about feeling the need to change roles at all, It's about having some fun on the dance floor :nice: What I mean is we all go out for a fun enjoyable evening and although we may be a bit serios because of the champs coming up thats still what it's about. I mostly swap roles with the lovely Teacher Kelly (Greenwich) who Teaches advanced classes weekly, and I have just as much fun with her as I do when swapping roles with my friend jon (who's a tad bit rusty at following at the mo) :whistle: :kiss: :flower:

Gadget
7th-April-2005, 02:18 PM
Has anyone ever run a workshop specifically on total role reversal? Not as in switching roles within a particular dance but as in basically teaching ladies to lead and men to follow? yes: Franck ran one at the last beach ballroom {might be the wrong event, but he did run one - I was there.}
I think the main thing it highlighted was that I can't follow and :worthy: to the ladys.

Lou
7th-April-2005, 02:30 PM
...wha? Sorry, distracted by you doing it all over the place. :innocent:
:rofl:



Convinced me of what?
That it's fun when ladies "do it"?

Unless we've actually persuaded you to do anything else? :whistle:

Gadget
7th-April-2005, 02:54 PM
That it's fun when ladies "do it"?

Unless we've actually persuaded you to do anything else? :whistle:
depends... can I "do it" at the same time, or do I just watch? :innocent:

spindr
7th-April-2005, 09:40 PM
Heh. The easiest way to make me backlead is to overspin me. I doubt I'd make it to the end of the second windmill... :)
Oh right, I don't normally count falling over as backleading -- but I suppose you're right -- you wouldn't be following then :devil:

SpinDr.

Lou
8th-April-2005, 07:23 AM
or do I just watch? :innocent:

And join in later? I know..... :whistle: :rolleyes:

Lory
8th-April-2005, 08:32 AM
Hey, how about men wearing badges :D

RED = Play it straight, 'I'm leading' and any deviations will be sorely frowned upon! :cool:

AMBER = proceed with caution but I may use the 'safe word' at any given time :blush:

GREEN = Bring it on, I just love being played with! :clap: :yum: :devil:

Us girls like to know where we stand! :wink:

Gadget
8th-April-2005, 08:59 AM
Now with definitions like that, you really think that anyone would wear anything but green? :rolleyes::innocent:

{hmmmmm.... perhaps I see through your cunning plan!}

David Bailey
8th-April-2005, 09:18 AM
Hey, how about men wearing badges :D
...
Us girls like to know where we stand! :wink:
Hey, I'm game, but it's only fair that the ladies should wear similar ones. Care to suggest a few colours and meanings Lory? :wink:

JoC
8th-April-2005, 09:22 AM
yes: Franck ran one at the last beach ballroom {might be the wrong event, but he did run one - I was there.}
I think the main thing it highlighted was that I can't follow and :worthy: to the ladys.

I'll watch this space then...