Retribution on Party Airsteppers

[Gus]

Further to the main posting ... at the Party there were at least three guys doing major airsteps where there wasn't even room to armjive. Is it just me or is that a BAD thing? Please vote with your thoughts.

[Tiggerbabe]

I saw one couple doing a move that you should only attempt in a showcase performance - funnily enough the same couple that were doing the same thing the other week at the monthly Glasgow party. Luckily (for me!) Franck was dancing in the same area and told the bloke to get real (or I presume words to that effect!). He's definitely a liability though and if he needs told again then should be banned.
The first thing I saw when I got to the party was a couple on the floor doing a serious seducer and the lady's head narrowly missing someone else by 2cm, if that!
Later on there was at least some space for doing a drop or dip but anything that involves the lady's feet being above her head was a definite no no for last night - in fact a no no for any social dancefloor.

[TheTramp]

There were people doing airsteps last night?????

You forgot the only option on the poll that would have counted Gus.

"Committed"

Steve

[TheTramp]

Although, I have to admit, that I did do an airstep with Franck and DavidB. But that was in the hallway outside, supervised by LilyB.

I think I got away with it :)

Steve

[DavidB]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Although, I have to admit, that I did do an airstep with Franck and DavidBWe were disappointed - we thought you were going to lift us overhead :sad:

[TheTramp]

If I could have actually linked my fingers, then I would have. :D Double candlestick with Franck and DavidB. Now that would have been worth seeing!!!

Not that I'd want to give other people ideas though!!

Steve

[Gus]

Originally posted by TheTramp
If I could have actually linked my fingers, then I would have. :D Double candlestick with Franck and DavidB. Now that would have been worth seeing!!!

Not that I'd want to give other people ideas though!!

Steve

Not that I wish to be 'weightist' but I wasn't sure about the load bearing capacity of that floor ... and given that all three of you gentlemen are ...ahem, not without bodymass ... would this not represent a structural hazard .... what was you combined weight ... around 48 stone??? Could be a new game .. guess the weight....

ANYWAY ... GET BACK ON TOPIC:wink:

[TheTramp]

Dunno. I weigh 18 on my own Gus. So we might even have broken the 50 stone mark :) I suppose at the point I was picking both of them up, the stress on the floor might have been just a little more than usual!! :)

[Dreadful Scathe]

Must admit I didn't notice anyone doing airsteps, I barely managed any leans. Did no one 'ave a word' at the time?


As for this poll - i was tempted to pick the option 'ingored' but it wasnt clear what they would be gored to death with (thats what you meant Gus right ?) - possibly too severe a penalty, hmm maybe not :).

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Gus
Further to the main posting ... at the Party there were at least three guys doing major airsteps where there wasn't even room to armjive. Is it just me or is that a BAD thing? Please vote with your thoughts.
I did witness a few 'stupid' air-step and drop moves, done by people that should know better. But it wasn't just those people that got my goat - it was the fact that some people refused to change the way they danced to suit the conditions - you just can't do flamboyant moves in that space (or lack of it) without bumping into someone or propelling your partner into someone.

:reallymad

[TheTramp]

I agree with Gadget.

As Gus already pointed out, at one point (dancing with Helen), I had to interpose myself for a prolonged period between the people dancing next to us, and Helen, just to stop her taking on more bruises. This was a fairly common occurance. In any crowded space like that, it's impossible not to bump/get bumped, but everyone should certainly have adjusted the way they were dancing to take account of the lack of space.

I didn't see anyone doing any airsteps, but felt that I and my partner were in more danger of people's elbows and being trodden on than anything else.

It was actually nice dancing next to you, Gus, at one point, as I was able to relax a bit, knowing that we were relatively safe for that time.

Steve

[Lou]

Originally posted by Gadget
- it was the fact that some people refused to change the way they danced to suit the conditions
Grrrrrr.... that really annoys me, too. Trouble is, this type of dancer only seems to be able to do those moves. It's one extreme of a range of dance styles - it seems the mentality is to fit in as many of these showy moves without any thought to musical interpretation. In fact, it would be the same, no matter what he would be dancing to... :reallymad

[Dave Hancock]

Thought I'd join in this discussion with a thought of my own on teacher's responsibilities.

I would like to point out that only 2 days before the party in an Aberdeen intermediate class we were taught what I would classify a baby air step with ladies having both legs of the ground and jumping into a space preferably a couple of feet from the man. It was no surpirse then to see several Aberdonian's trying this move on Saturday night in what were totally inappropriate circumstances, but who still did the move far too regularly because they thought it looked it cool (would agree with an earlier voiced opinion that most air moves look at best average and normally a lot worse as they break the beat of a dance and are often used by fairly inexperinced dancers who don't interpret music particulary well who are only attracted to the wow effect of such moves, whom have absolutely little regard for space and the potential effects which such moves has on others.)

I think that anytime before such an event which is likely to be extremely busy (such as 10 yr parties, Scottish championships, Uk championships) etc, that teachers refrain from teaching moves as well as drops and leans, as all that happens is that in the following days these moves are used all too often as they are so fresh in one's mind.

As someone who quite enjoys a seducer or drop I'd also like to add my disappointed voice to all those voiced previously that the floor space was so limited as to have as to force (the majority of people, certainly not everybody :reallymad) to dance considerably "smaller" than usual, however I would like to thank Franck for letting me use Gus's excellent up close and personnel workshop moves to great effect on a number of occassions at night time


:nice:

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Dave Hancock


I think that anytime before such an event which is likely to be extremely busy (such as 10 yr parties, Scottish championships, Uk championships) etc, that teachers refrain from teaching moves as well as drops and leans, as all that happens is that in the following days these moves are used all too often as they are so fresh in one's mind.


Hmm! Thats not going to make a difference. not everyone that goes to events like that go to Ceroc classes, there are countless other Jive classes. I know quite a few aerial moves but no one sees them very often as Im aware of the danger of smacking my partner into people. Now, my regular partner can be a fearsome weapon in her own right - but not usually propelled by me :).

Perhaps a better suggestion would be to have a brief safety talk at Ceroc venues when they do any moves like that - or even add it as an intro to the intermediate class - I mean it would take 1 minute secs to at least have a few words on awareness and danger of moves. I know other teachers do mention safety more than Ive heard at Ceroc nights.

[Fran]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe

Perhaps a better suggestion would be to have a brief safety talk at Ceroc venues when they do any moves like that - or even add it as an intro to the intermediate class - I mean it would take 1 minute secs to at least have a few words on awareness and danger of moves. I know other teachers do mention safety more than Ive heard at Ceroc nights.

I agree with you DC, if the teachers regulary spoke about body space -( i.e, elbows and feet) and dangerous moves as a part of their lessons - weather they are doing drops ect or not it will eventually get the message across to existing members and will be good for new ones.

Teaching good practice form the start makes things so much better in the long run. Given everyone's concern about saftey on the dance floor I would have no problem listening to the teachers saying somthing each night, even if I had heard it before.

fran:nice:

[Basil Brush (Forum Plant)]

DO YOU TRULY THINK THE PEOPLE WE'RE REFERRING TO WOULD LISTEN/ADHERE?

DON'T YOU THINK IT'S ONE OF THOSE THINGS THAT CAN'T BE TAUGHT- IT IS MORE ABOUT COMMON SENSE RATHER THAN A LEARNED AWARENESS OF BODY SPACE?

[Dave Hancock]

Agree with BB's comment's that a lot of it is common sense and while there has been much talk about potential retribution (as is the them of this thread) I think it would be important in determining who it should be who has a word with the offenders.
If individuals take it upon themselves to put out the selfishness of certain other's then it shall inevitably lead to an element of bad feeling and mean that Ceroc would lose a lot of it's feel good factor if there was "bitchiness" among dancers, which in my eyes means that it would really be the responsibility of the teachers to have a word with them. Would be interested in gaining others views on this topic.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Dave Hancock
Agree with BB's comment's that a lot of it is common sense and while there has been much talk about potential retribution (as is the them of this thread) I think it would be important in determining who it should be who has a word with the offenders.

As a franchisee I only banned two people. One was for inappropraite 'closeness' ... and the other chap was for doing airsteps after I warned him!

It grieves me because actualy I really like airsteps but I've not yet come up with a way of allowing airsteps safely BEACUSE ... whereas most people would properly do them well ... there would still be a whole raft of idiots who wouldn't ... what do you do??

[Graham]

Firstly, I agree that it would be a good idea not to teach any new drops which may require more care/room immediately before (or even at) a big event. And when such moves are taught, it would certainly be a good idea to make a reference to when they might be inappropriate.

However, I agree (INCIDENTALLY, BASIL, I TAKE IT THERE'S NO CHANCE OF YOU REVERTING TO MIXED CASE? STUDIES HAVE SHOWN IT'S MUCH EASIER TO READ. THERE'S ONLY ONE PERSON I KNOW OF WHO SPEAKS LIKE THIS: HAVE YOU READ ANY TERRY PRATCHETT?) that the people who need this advice the most are the ones who probably wouldn't listen to it. On the other hand, it's easy to change the class and add the safety talk, and it can't do any harm.

I also agree with Dave H that it should not be up to individuals to confront the offenders. This has also been discussed previously on another thread. Personally I think the person in charge of the class/party has this responsibility.

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Fran
if the teachers regulary spoke about body space -( i.e, elbows and feet) and dangerous moves as a part of their lessons - weather they are doing drops ect or not it will eventually get the message across to existing members and will be good for new ones.I agree. There would have been just enough room to dance on Saturday if everyone knew how to dance small. Unfortunately it only takes 10% of the people to dance 'big' and everyone on the floor gets affected (and pissed off!)

I went to a salsa class once. The room was twice the size of party venue, and there were 40 people in the class. At the end of the class, the teachers said that the amount of space was not realistic. So they squeezed all 20 couples into a tiny space, and then made us do the routine again. You were bumping up against people even whilst standing still, but you learned to adjust your dancing very quickly!

David

[TheTramp]

David!

I like that idea (from the salsa class). I will start using it from time to time when I'm teaching!!!

:rolleyes: :confused: :D :devil:

Steve

[Fran]

Originally posted by Basil Brush
DO YOU TRULY THINK THE PEOPLE WE'RE REFERRING TO WOULD LISTEN/ADHERE?

DON'T YOU THINK IT'S ONE OF THOSE THINGS THAT CAN'T BE TAUGHT- IT IS MORE ABOUT COMMON SENSE RATHER THAN A LEARNED AWARENESS OF BODY SPACE?

yes, it is about commen sense. However I disagree with you BB.
I teach people to use a work shop ( not dance but tools)- without going into it there are loads of saftey eliments involved in my work, many of which are commen sense. However due to human nature I still have to remind students of saftey issues and I have no probelm in doing so if that is what it takes to prevent problem.

I having been a taxi dancer I am very aware that in many, many cases new dancers are too busy just concentrating on the the moves to even think about the saftey issues, unfortunatley this habit stays with some people and they never develop an awarness of their body sense - even as an intermeadiate dancer, unless it is pointed out to them. There are simpy to many example of this happening each night in every venue for it to be enough to rely on "commen sense".

What harm could there be in reminding people of obvious issues regulary in a class situation which offendeds/names no particular individual if it can save people from getting hurt or anoyed with other dancers lack of knowledge/ettiquite/commen sense.?


fran

[Gus]

Originally posted by DavidB

I went to a salsa class once. The room was twice the size of party venue, and there were 40 people in the class. At the end of the class, the teachers said that the amount of space was not realistic. So they squeezed all 20 couples into a tiny space, and then made us do the routine again. You were bumping up against people even whilst standing still, but you learned to adjust your dancing very quickly!

David

excellent exercise. At the Wellington workshop they ran a level 1 workshop (beginners) which had an interesting variation. 3 couples dancing in the centre and about 15 dancers forming a circle round them. On the instructors word, the circle took one step in, reducing the 'dance space'. This continued till the dancers at the centre were dancing back to back. They looked really pleased that they were still managing to dance despite jostling and hitting each other ... till the instructor told them they should have stopped dancing 4 counts previously ... before they started interfeering with the dance space of their fellow dancers. Important point was thus learnt.

[Fran]

Originally posted by Graham
However, I agree (INCIDENTALLY, BASIL, I TAKE IT THERE'S NO CHANCE OF YOU REVERTING TO MIXED CASE? STUDIES HAVE SHOWN IT'S MUCH EASIER TO READ. THERE'S ONLY ONE PERSON I KNOW OF WHO SPEAKS LIKE THIS: HAVE YOU READ ANY TERRY PRATCHETT?)


sorry BB but I agree 100%. :nice: I wont bore you with the research on this one but it certainly does exist.

fran

[John S]

Originally posted by Graham

(INCIDENTALLY, BASIL, I TAKE IT THERE'S NO CHANCE OF YOU REVERTING TO MIXED CASE? STUDIES HAVE SHOWN IT'S MUCH EASIER TO READ. THERE'S ONLY ONE PERSON I KNOW OF WHO SPEAKS LIKE THIS: HAVE YOU READ ANY TERRY PRATCHETT?)

Come on, leave the fox alone - he's already got someone's hand stuck up him to make his bits move, so it's asking a lot to expect him to type perfectly as well!

Anyway, quite apart from being totally off the topic, surely the Forum (like life) is enhanced by variety - let's not have any typeface fascism!:wink: :cheers:

JUST REALISED DS HAS DEVOTED A NEW THREAD TO THIS FOX-HUNTING TOPIC - NOW MOVING THERE TO LEAVE ROOM ON THIS THREAD FOR WHAT THE SUBJECT WAS REALLY ABOUT, IE AIRSTEPPING PRATS.

[Gus]

Originally posted by John S

JUST REALISED DS HAS DEVOTED A NEW THREAD TO THIS FOX-HUNTING TOPIC - NOW MOVING THERE TO LEAVE ROOM ON THIS THREAD FOR WHAT THE SUBJECT WAS REALLY ABOUT, IE AIRSTEPPING PRATS.

John,

firstly was a pleasure to meet you ... sorry we didn't have greater chance to chat ... my fault

Secondly ... as Official Devils Advocate I feel I should argue the case for the airsteppers ...........

Urrrgghhh .... need some help so I've had a great idea. At least one person has voted FOR the right to airstep ..... how about one of the airsteppers giving their side of the story .... YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE........

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Gus
Secondly ... as Official Devils Advocate I feel I should argue the case for the airsteppers ...........I'm not going to argue for doing airsteps in freestyle - I voted for them to be banned. But if people who do airsteps are (rightly) encouraged to show some restraint, then what is the alternative you are offering? Where else can they do these steps? I've always found it strange when organisers get airsteps teachers in, and then tell everyone not to do them.

The same goes for drops. If you are teaching them, and emphasising the safety aspects, including when not to do them, then when do you suggest allowing them?

David

[Jon]

Airstepping, Seducers or just about any move in Ceroc come to that people need to be SPACE AWARE. So many people do not look around them and think do I actually have enough room to do my next move.

I am forever moving out of peoples way and dodging heads of the ladys inches from my feet.

When I do a move I always make sure there is space to do it in saftey after all guys it's the Lady thats going to get hurt not you. And in case someone steps in to my space I have a backup plan.

Is common sense too much to ask?

Dance but be SAFE!

[TheTramp]

It's a good point David. If you got the latest Jump'n'Jive email, you'd see that Andy and Rena are teaching a class this weekend, and the line went something like, 'Come and learn how to put some jumps into your dancing'. Or something like that.

The point is, do them, with someone who knows what they're doing, when you've been taught how to do them properly, somewhere it's safe, and where you have much more room than you need. Which admittedly is NOT most places. And certainly wasn't on Saturday.

Under certain, very limited circumstances, I have nothing against some airsteps (as I'm sure most people know). It's just the when that seems to be the problem for some people.

Steve

[Basil Brush (Forum Plant)]

WELL FOLKS IT ALL STARTED WHEN I POSTED A MESSAGE ACCIDENTALY IN UPPER CASE (WAS IN A HURRY). IMMEDIATELY GOT SLATED BY SOME PRAT ('CHOOSE 5TYLE OVER SUBSTANCE' OR SOMETHING) SO KEPT GOING IN CAPS JUST TO BUG 'EM. I AM REALLY A FAN OF ALL LOWER CASE, SPECIALLY FOR INTERNET BASED STUFF.

BACK TO AIRSTEPS- THE THRUST OF THIS THREAD- I KNWO THEIR NAMES..... OFFER ME A RABBIT AND I MIGHT JUST TELL....

[Gadget]

Originally posted by DavidB
what is the alternative you are offering? Where else can they do these steps? I've always found it strange when organisers get airsteps teachers in, and then tell everyone not to do them.
Showcases? How about having a showcase slot at every party? Volunteers could then do all the fancy moves they liked with no worries of banging into anyone (perhaps just a small one of falling off the stage)

hmmm... perhaps need to bracket the slot with safety warnings - standard "Don't try this at home, kids" stuff.

[Gus]

Well it would appear that the stars of Saturday night wish to forgoe their chance to argue their case ... pity ... as I noticed at least one of the gentlemen browsing this forum.

So ... the wishes of the common masses is fairly evenly split between 'stern talking to' and 'putting stocks on stage and being repeatedly smashed across the face with a 10lb haddock'. Both pretty fair choices but if I supply the haddock will that help sway the wavering voters??

Anyway ... the main point is what do the Management think, Franck, any comments?

[TheTramp]

How about having a showcase slot at every party?
The trouble with something like that would be that if you only get 5 people who want to do one, that takes up 30 minutes of dance time, that many of the people there would resent losing.

Personally, apart from the really good people doing demonstrations (and there are very few of those), I don't really want to stop dancing myself to watch. The cabaret at Camber (with again 3 notable exceptions) wasn't worth the break in dancing, and I got the only cheer during the introductions (of teachers and DJs), when I kept it to three words (Hi, I'm Steve). I recall that in May, Nigel and Nina were the only people who got cheers...
Nina - Hello, I'm Nina
Nigel - And I'm not.
There's obviously something about using 3 words!! :)

Steve

[DavidB]

Originally posted by TheTramp
The trouble with something like that {showcase} would be that if you only get 5 people who want to do one, that takes up 30 minutes of dance time, that many of the people there would resent losing.How about the 'jam circle' idea that you get in Lindy. For those that have never seen one, this is a pretty good description (from KCDance.com):

"Back in the big band days, Lindy Hoppers often had a hard time finding enough space to safely do their best moves. Shine steps, air steps, and travelling steps were simply too dangerous or impossible to do on the busy dance floors of those days. Thus, Lindy Hoppers would often form what was called a "Jam Session," "Jam Circle" or simply a "Jam." The dancers would clear out a wide area on the dance floor by standing in a circle and then take turns inside the circle to show off their best moves while the other Lindy Hoppers cheered them on. This "Jam" would go on until (a) every Lindy Hopper had their turn or the (b) non-Lindy Hoppers threatened physical violence. Today, the classic tradition of jams still lives on in the finer Lindy Hop clubs around the world. Here's the rules of a Jam: If non-Lindy Hoppers are present, Jams should only last two or three songs. The only exception is if Frankie Manning is running the Jam, in which case the Jam can go on indefinitely.
A spontaneous Jam can be started at any time by any group of Lindy Hoppers clearing a circle for one couple to dance in.
Organized Jams are normally ran by the lead dancers at a club in conjunction with the DJ/Band Leader.
If an organized Jam starts, all Lindy Hoppers in the club should stop what they are doing and join the circle to cheer on the couple inside.
Once you enter the Jam, you stay until (a) you decide to leave or (b) another couple enters the circle. Don't stay past your time.
To enter the Jam, grab your partner and wait just inside of the circle. As long as the couple inside the circle is cutting it up, wait. When they leave or run out of steam, enter the Jam. "
David

[TheTramp]

It does sound like a plan, and could be carried out at some places. I think that a lynch mob might have started on Saturday though, if that much dance floor had been taken up :)

Maybe you can organise one at Bognor in January (if you're going).

Steve

[Basil Brush (Forum Plant)]

jam circles are fun- especially with tea- but only difficulty is that people are too scared to go in! i have been too chicken in the past (partly because of the tail- self-conscious/awkward) but it can be intimidating for most people, especially those of a non-exhibitionist nature. but they are good to watch, and a good opportunity for airsteps/dips/drops. can't see it at your average ceroc night though.

please notice the lower case tramp.... is this to your liking? god you folks are hard to please......

[Gadget]

Originally posted by TheTramp
The trouble with something like that would be that if you only get 5 people who want to do one, that takes up 30 minutes of dance time, that many of the people there would resent losing.
I was thinking more of 'cage dancing' sort of concept {like in clubs esp Ibiza} - just have a couple on the stage doing their thang - those who want to watch, can. Those who want to dance, can. Those who want to do go to the bar, can.

Sort of like the Jam idea except the stage being the center so that it dosn't take away dance floor space.


Originally posted by DavidB
How about the 'jam circle' idea that you get in Lindy.~
I like the idea: sounds a lot of fun. But I have a feeling that it would scare beginners - a circle presents an awful lot of backs to the rest of the dance floor; could be taken as a snub to those outside of it, or as a form clique-ism.
(Actually, there is a ceiligh dance {I can never get that word right!} that involves a very similar thing - perhaps a request for next time ?)

~edit~
You posted the same time as I did Mr B. Thank you for the change. :waycool:

[TheTramp]

The lower case is most acceptable on the eyes.

Steve

[Gary]

Originally posted by DavidB
The dancers would clear out a wide area on the dance floor by standing in a circle and then take turns inside the circle to show off their best moves while the other Lindy Hoppers cheered them on.


They do a Jam Circle variation at some of the venues I've been to. Sometimes to celebrate a person's birthday, they're put in the middle of the circle and they dance one song through, swapping partners over the course of the song. New partners wait "in the wings" for a smooth partner changeover. One of the coolest dances I've ever seen was a guy doing this with some very smooth changeovers and dancing his heart out.

[TheTramp]

You see that lots of places - in fact, they did it at the party for Franck.

Steve

[Franck]

Originally posted by Gus
Anyway ... the main point is what do the Management think, Franck, any comments? Sorry Gus, only just spotted this post. I am still catching up with all the activity on the Forum over the last few days... :nice:

My views on Air steps at 'busy' parties and regular nights are already widely published on this forum, but, as with safety warnings, it does not hurt to repeat them!

My view is 'Don't do it'. The responsibility to tell the offending couple should fall upon the organizer of the event (myself for example if I am present), or the Venue manager in charge of the night (as Fran pointed out).
Normal dancers should not have to be subjected to dangerous dancers or to the bad feelings that may develop if they say anything.
It is our job, and our responsibility. I did talk to a few people on Saturday, and hopefully made them see sense...

Re. teaching dips / drops and jumps at regular classes prior to big events, I don't think that is a problem, and in fact can provide a good opportunity to remind people of the dangers / requirements of such moves.
I would like also to state categorically that, when Lorna taught that jump, safety was mentionned several times, as well as insisting on making sure the necessary floor space was available. I was there that night, and Lorna is even more obsessive than I am about safety warnings and dance floor etiquette!

Franck.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Franck
I would like also to state categorically that, when Lorna taught that jump, safety was mentionned several times, as well as insisting on making sure the necessary floor space was available. I was there that night, and Lorna is even more obsessive than I am about safety warnings and dance floor etiquette!

Franck.

To follow up on a few points made ... I think that the issue over and above "to airstep or not to airstep" is one of dance floor ettiquette. I've been involved in a number of debates about "do we allow mini-aerials (e,g, hip-hop, 1 st move jump etc)." Never managed to come to a workable solution beacuse at the end of the day its down to the dancers themselves to pay heed to where other dancers are and how much room there is.

Though I've been quite fixated on my critisism of the airsteppers ... many other people have commented re the lack of floorcraft. Again, a conversation last night with an instructor from Blitz brought up another dangerous move ... the catapult!:confused: . How many dancers actualy look behind them before launching the lady there?? Wurlitzers, traveling flick spins can all propell you parneter outside your immediate danceing zone ... but does everyone first check that there is a safe space for them?

What I'm rambling on about is that there needs to be some way of educating ALL dancers that its not just aerial moves that can be a hazard on the dancefloor ... I've seen a couple of cases where yoyo'd arms have caused injury to passing dancers.

Any suggestions as to how this could be best done?

[Fran]

Originally posted by Gus
What I'm rambling on about is that there needs to be some way of educating ALL dancers that its not just aerial moves that can be a hazard on the dancefloor ... I've seen a couple of cases where yoyo'd arms have caused injury to passing dancers.

Any suggestions as to how this could be best done?

It has been mentioned by several people both on the forum and off, that the whole issue of space awarness - including space needed for standard moves could be an area regulary mentioned by the teachers.

When Alison first started teaching in the Edinburgh francise she received great support from many ladies in her classes by adding to her teaching routine ( with humour and no offence) how off putting it is for women to be dancing witha rather smelly man, having their faces thrust into the offending armpits isnt so nice:reallymad :sick: :sick: . (- yes i am sure it works both ways).

Any way the point is that by regulary mentoning it as a part of her teaching routine, it did give some people an awarness of something which they may not have been aware of for what ever reason, and it was done diplomaticlly. I feel that the same could and should be done in relation to body space, after all there are only a few of us regulary on the forum and hundreds of members who are not aware of this issue.

fran:nice:

[John S]

Originally posted by Gus




Wurlitzers, traveling flick spins can all propell you parneter outside your immediate danceing zone ... but does everyone first check that there is a safe space for them?
.....
its not just aerial moves that can be a hazard on the dancefloor ... I've seen a couple of cases where yoyo'd arms have caused injury to passing dancers.

Any suggestions as to how this could be best done?

I know that on Saturday, the floor was so crowded that on a simple turn/return my elbow connected with the face of a lady dancing next to me - whether or not she had been "propelled" into range I'm not sure but the net effect was painful.:tears: (And I believe her face was sore, too!) At that point I knew it was time to quit dancing for a while.

So I'm afraid accidents can/will happen - it's a bit like car/road safety, there needs to be a multi-channel approach, to both reduce the number of accidents and then to minimise the effects:

Environment - size and condition of dance floor, adequate seating & bag storage, no obstacles like tables, chairs, Aberdeen cobbles(!), clear routes to/from bar, etc

Equipment - shoes, jewellery, rings, sharp elbows, shinpads, helmets (sorry, got carried away).

Education - workshops on how to dance in confined spaces, spatial awareness, avoidance techniques etc. These to be held occasionally IN-CLASS (ie NOT at special weekends) instead of the Intermediate class - with a bit of planning they could be made into fun sessions with a serious point.

[John S]

Originally posted by Franck


.... when Lorna taught that jump, safety was mentioned several times, as well as insisting on making sure the necessary floor space was available. I was there that night

I was there too, and can absolutely confirm that Lorna also spoke at great length about the need to check with each new partner during the lesson whether or not to do the jump or the alternative. She was so persuasive that my first 3 partners took one look at me and went for the alternative :tears:

However, I was also very conscious that during Lorna's safety talks several (mainly men) were paying not the slightest bit of notice as they seemed more intent on chatting up their partners.

So are regular safety warnings are a bit like an air stewardess's pre-flight talks - ok to listen to the first couple of times, but not paid attention to if given every time? Do we need them jazzed up a bit (eg demonstrations of potential injuries?):what:

[PeterL]

On this subject I totally agree. I only do drops with certain people and I have checked they are OK with it in the past, and they allow me to because they know that I will not place them in danger.
i.e. not on a dancefloor like Saturday's

However some male leads whether through inexperience or arrogance will perform these moves heedless to both the womans wishes and the space around them no matter what is said at the classess.

A possible solution would be to educate the women to just stop dead and say no when they either don't feel comfortable with the particular lead doing drops or don't feel comfortable with the dance space. (YOU CANNOT DROP A WOMAN WHO WON'T BE DROPPED).
This would be most effective because even if only a small proportion of the women did this it would make men think twice and ask before doing drops if the women stop them mid step when they are not thoughtful.

[TheTramp]

If you're volunteering John, we could get DavidB to throw me into you. That should be graphic enough to get everyones attention!!

Steve

[Gus]

Originally posted by PeterL

A possible solution would be to educate the women to just stop dead and say no when they either don't feel comfortable with the particular lead doing drops or don't feel comfortable with the dance space. (YOU CANNOT DROP A WOMAN WHO WON'T BE DROPPED).

Peter, sorry to contradict you but you CAN drop a woman whether she likes it or not ... I've also seen ladies thrown into airsteps with absolutely no choice.

Part of the Drops and Dips course on Sat urday was 'Ladies Self Defence' ...where Helen demostrated how to avoid drops ... this covers most situation but sometimes, if the guy is forcefull enough ... then down she does. Helen explained the technoques to step out of moves, block the guys grip, change positoning and the simple verbal "NO".

At the end of the day, the best defence is that if a guy drops you whne you don't want to you soimply walk straight off the dance floor there and then ...

[Graham]

Originally posted by TheTramp
If you're volunteering John, we could get DavidB to throw me into you. That should be graphic enough to get everyones attention!!

Steve
Wouldn't it be better to get one of the "chatters-up" to demonstrate on? That way he'd be unable to offend for quite some time, and the others might pay more attention! :wink:

[PeterL]

Peter, sorry to contradict you but you CAN drop a woman whether she likes it or not ... I've also seen ladies thrown into airsteps with absolutely no choice.


I stand corrected here. I personally cannot throw a woman into a dip that doesn't want to be dipped. Whether this is through inexperience or concern that my partner is in the correct position (I don't Know)


At the end of the day, the best defence is that if a guy drops you whne you don't want to you soimply walk straight off the dance floor there and then ...

This I totally agree with and has the affect that I was hoping to get accross you may be able to throw a woman into a dip but if she feels secure enough to walk away you won't be able to do it again. The classes that teach safety that I have been at always tell the man to ask the woman but I haven't been to any like you mentioned that empower the woman to feel secure enough to walk away.

I commend Helen for teaching these avoidance tactics.

[Graham]

Originally posted by Gus


Peter, sorry to contradict you but you CAN drop a woman whether she likes it or not ... I've also seen ladies thrown into airsteps with absolutely no choice.I've often seen the drop-merchants at work with partners I knew to be beginners - the ladies had definitely not been taught the move, but the drop-merchant managed to get them into it without apparent problems. The thing about the drop-merchants is that they probably perform these moves more often than any other non-beginner move, so I expect they're quite good at leading them.

[Gus]

Originally posted by PeterL



I stand corrected here. I personally cannot throw a woman into a dip that doesn't want to be dipped. Whether this is through inexperience or concern that my partner is in the correct position (I don't Know)



Peter ... most blokes would never dream of forcing a lady into a move that they don't want to do ... and its obvious from your response that you are part of this virtuous majority. Unfortunately there are a number of dancers, especially in my area who throw the ladies round like sacks of spuds. Again, there is an infamous cowboy instructor in this region who's party piece is to throw ladies into a half-loop by using a version of a body slam:tears:

I must admit that I'm keenly waiting for him to do it to someone I'm with then I will take the greatest of pleasure in body slamming him ... but maybe forgetting to stop him hitting the deck:devil: :devil: :devil: :devil:

[Graham]

Originally posted by Gus
....[whose] party piece is to throw ladies into a half-loop by using a version of a body slam:tears:
Just to clarify - in my previous post when I said good at leading I meant "good" in the sense of "effective".

[Sal]

I have been the dropee on a few few occassions where I was not aware of what was coming next. As a tall girl, it's quite scary, as I am not always sure they can take my weight.

A couple of months ago a guy who had been taking lessons for four weeks, tried a drop that I had not been taught. He lead, and caught badly with the net effect that I landed on the floor with a bruised ego and back. I think he still wonders why I avoid him like the plague!

[PeterL]

My personal experience of drops is that I had been dancing for 18 months before I did any outside a class, as I don't have a regular partner I didn't feel comfortable doing them. ( a few bad experiences in class where the lady dropped before I was ready and I grappled fast). Recently however I have been using them as I have been requested to by some ladies who say that I need to end my dance Beggining -Middle no-end.

I still only do them on ladies that I know are experienced enough and know that I am likely to do them and I always have a firm hold.

A recent experience I had at a class was when a lady I had never seen before dropped without me leading her. I of course said to her please ignore the teacher and follow my lead as if I'm not ready you could get hurt.
The response I got was "I've been dancing for 3 years" and she proceeded to drop herself again without me having a say in it. Not to say I didn't ask her for a dance in Freestyle.

It might be worth mentioning here that I have never heard an instructor tell the ladies not to drop but to let the man lower them and in a class situation the ladies are often craning there heads over there shoulders and following the instructors lead and not there partners. Do you think this should be bought up as well in safety instructions. the name drop is misleading as most drops are a gentle lowering of the lady.
Please correct me if I am wrong.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Sal
A couple of months ago a guy who had been taking lessons for four weeks, tried a drop that I had not been taught. He lead, and caught badly with the net effect that I landed on the floor with a bruised ego and back. I think he still wonders why I avoid him like the plague!

Please, Please Please make sure you tell the Techer or Venue manager ... I'm not into 'name and shame' but the management do need to know if there is someone doing drops that they can't if only to show them the correct way ... or to warn them of the consequences. He may not be damaging you but now he may be damaging someone else. After that experience I'm surprised you came back to the club!

[Franck]

Originally posted by PeterL
It might be worth mentioning here that I have never heard an instructor tell the ladies not to drop but to let the man lower them and in a class situation the ladies are often craning there heads over there shoulders and following the instructors lead and not there partners. Do you think this should be bought up as well in safety instructions. the name drop is misleading as most drops are a gentle lowering of the lady.
Please correct me if I am wrong. You are completely right Peter, and this is a (another?) bugbear of mine. I do explain that point to all the ladies when teaching any 'drop', and at all workshops. Not only is it dangerous for the ladies, but potentially seriously damaging for the men, who will do their best to catch their 'dropping' partner, and injure their back :sad:

I agree, that this should be part of any class involving the ladies being lowered in any unusual position.

Re. Gus' point on normal moves potentially creating injury, I agree as well, I find that when dancing I spend as much time looking around my partner, and behind me before a 'catapult' like move, that sometimes eye contact has to take second place! Still, thank god for the 'Comb' :wink:
I agree, those things should be taught more, and usually get mentioned at workshops. However, there is a case for adding it to normal classes and I will make a conscious effort to add it as a key point next time I teach the Catapult or Half-Windmill for example

Franck.

[TheTramp]

I can't remember the last time I did a comb.

Don't seem to need one much these days :(

Steve

[Fran]

Originally posted by TheTramp
I can't remember the last time I did a comb.

Don't seem to need one much these days :(

Steve

Arhhh... never mind - think of all the time you save getting ready and anyway :nice: :wink:
- there is always that proven theory about maleness and lack of head hair etc. so I would not even concern yourself about it.:wink: :waycool:

fran:nice:

[Fran]

sorry. did not mean to get away from the thread.:sorry :sorry

Combs in dancing can be quite nice :nice: :nice:

fran

[Jon]

Originally posted by TheTramp
I can't remember the last time I did a comb.

Don't seem to need one much these days :(


I think a comb is the simplist move in Ceroc but easily one of the sexyist. When done with attitude and appropriate eye contact of course. :yum:

Even a hallalula can be quite an intimate close move when done right. :wink:

[Franck]

Originally posted by Jon
I think a comb is the simplist move in Ceroc but easily one of the sexyist. When done with attitude and appropriate eye contact of course. :yum:Aha! A man after my own heart :wink:

Franck.

[Emma]

Originally posted by Jon


Even a hallalula can be quite an intimate close move when done right. :wink:

Hee hee, um..well, you know my inability to keep a straight face during a halleluja. :what: Ooh, baby... :wink:

[Gus]

Well ... at great personal risk I've managed to find out who is the scurrulous individual who voted FOR airstpepers:tears: . I've now beaten him into confessing all on the forum tomorrow .... OK , actualy we chatted about it over a beer and he promises to post his views later ..... we wait with baited breath?

[Sandy]

Originally posted by Jon


I think a comb is the simplist move in Ceroc but easily one of the sexyist. When done with attitude and appropriate eye contact of course. :yum:

Even a hallalula can be quite an intimate close move when done right. :wink:

I agree Jon. When done properly it is a fabulous move. However it can be quite embarrassing as well. The eye contact is fab if it is with someone you feel comfortable with but if not..........! I guess it is down to perfecting the appropriate response to suit the individual guy!:wink: Any hints??

Sandy

:cheers:

[Lou]

Originally posted by Sandy
I agree Jon. When done properly it is a fabulous move. However it can be quite embarrassing as well. The eye contact is fab if it is with someone you feel comfortable with but if not..........! I guess it is down to perfecting the appropriate response to suit the individual guy!:wink: Any hints??
Hold on to the comb & slow it down when it's a guy you like - push away when it's not! :devil: :wink:

[Gadget]

Originally posted by Sandy
I agree Jon. When done properly it is a fabulous move. However it can be quite embarrassing as well. The eye contact is fab if it is with someone you feel comfortable with but if not..........! I guess it is down to perfecting the appropriate response to suit the individual guy!:wink: Any hints??
Turning your head to look down/over your (other) shoulder? Looks 'coy' rather than 'hot', but still sexy, and not as close as direct eye contact.
The other thing you can do is follow your off-hand with your eyes/head (only really works if you are doing something with it.)
For other moves, if you look in the opposite direction from your hand movement, then snap back on a change/stop/swapping of hands it can add more emphasis to the move. Same sort of idea with slower, smooth moves - if you follow the lead with your eyes/head it can add to the feel of it.
But for the most part, eye contact should prevail; it makes the times you do the other stuff more special.

[Dreadful Scathe]

Originally posted by Lou

Hold on to the comb & slow it down when it's a guy you like - push away when it's not! :devil: :wink:

Theres an easy way to see if Lou likes you then :).

[Lou]

Originally posted by Dreadful Scathe


Theres an easy way to see if Lou likes you then :).

Either that, or I'm knackered & need to catch my breath for a sec! :wink:

[Lorna]

Originally posted by Dave Hancock
Thought I'd join in this discussion with a thought of my own on teacher's responsibilities.

I would like to point out that only 2 days before the party in an Aberdeen intermediate class we were taught what I would classify a baby air step with ladies having both legs of the ground and jumping into a space preferably a couple of feet from the man. It was no surpirse then to see several Aberdonian's trying this move on Saturday night in what were totally inappropriate circumstances,
Unfortunately I cannot and will not accept resonsibility for those people who simply cannot differentiate between a crowded dancefloor and a spacious one. Sorry!!

Originally posted by Dave Hancock
I think that anytime before such an event which is likely to be extremely busy (such as 10 yr parties, Scottish championships, Uk championships) etc, that teachers refrain from teaching moves as well as drops and leans, as all that happens is that in the following days these moves are used all too often as they are so fresh in one's mind.
I take your point but you could think about it from the other perspective. This move was taught in a safe manner and I, as I always do, paid particular attention to the dangers of these moves on a busy dancefloor etc. So if anything, I simply heightened awareness of the safety requirements with such moves. It is then up to the dancers to take my advice and use it!!! As far as I could see, the majority of people were playing safe on Sat night and being sensible. I cannot take responsibility for those who wish to ignore the advice that I give out.

This forum is fun isn't it Dave? :kiss:

Lotsa love Lorna x-x

[TheTramp]

Unfortunately I cannot and will not accept resonsibility for those people who simply cannot differentiate between a crowded dancefloor and a spacious one.
I agree with Lorna (and not just so she'll dance with me next time I see her) :wink:

The people who were taught these moves are supposed adults, and as such, should be capable of making rational decisions, ie. Do not throw your partner into other people. It's hardly rocket science, is it?

Steve

[Dave Hancock]

No offence meant Lorna, but it is just my opinion that certain members within classes everywhere are taken with the "WOW" effect of a move that is slightly different and it is my opinion that in teaching such a move before a party that it shall be at the forefront of some of these people's minds in the following weeks, as without wishing to name anyone but your demonstrating assistant that night clearly thought it was fair game last Saturday as I saw him pulling that move several times during the Saturday and once almost putting someone into myself.

I would say that when you taught the move in my opinion you taught it very well and you did stress the safety aspect on several occassions, but when these moves are given out some people will use them without regard for others.

[Sandy]

Originally posted by Lorna
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dave Hancock
[B]Thought I'd join in this discussion with a thought of my own on teacher's responsibilities.


Unfortunately I cannot and will not accept resonsibility for those people who simply cannot differentiate between a crowded dancefloor and a spacious one. Sorry!!



I agree, common sense should prevail and you do always point out the dangers. Ironically the offenders will be the ones least likely to realise we are talking about them.

Sandy

[PeterL]

The people who were taught these moves are supposed adults, and as such, should be capable of making rational decisions, ie. Do not throw your partner into other people. It's hardly rocket science, is it?

I agree totally with this. We all want to be taught these moves so when the circumstances are right we can use them, however we have to use best judgement as to when we use them.

We should be self policing. By that I mean experienced dancers/ teachers and those that other dancers look up to for inspiration should.

1. Set a good example.
2. Speak to people that either don't know better or show a lack of restraint when they should know better.

I know this is difficult at times because we go to have fun but when safety is the issue we should put aside our sensibilities and just tell these people. If we are ignored then we should bring it to the attention of the organiser/instructor.

[Lorna]

Originally posted by Dave Hancock
but your demonstrating assistant that night clearly thought it was fair game last Saturday as I saw him pulling that move several times during the Saturday and once almost putting someone into myself.
Hello again,

OOh, if I'd known this or spotted this then I would have said something, you know me!!! I have been known to give people a piece of my mind when it comes to safety on the dancefloor. In fact I spoke to someone on Thursday night with regards to a jump. This was because someone complained to me about him. I do take my role as teacher very seriously and I am only too happy to speak to those people who are putting others at risk on the dancefloor but I stand by what I said in that I cannot take responsibilty for those who ignore my advice, as someone mentioned we are all adults and should be able to police ourselves. Some people are just complete MUPPETS!!! :grin:

Lotsa love Lorna x-x

[Franck]

Originally posted by Dave Hancock
I would say that when you taught the move in my opinion you taught it very well and you did stress the safety aspect on several occassions, but when these moves are given out some people will use them without regard for others. As teachers, there are 2 things we can do:
1/ Make sure we teach the moves properly with suitable emphasis on safety (personal as well as floor craft).
2/ Make people aware on the dance floor that they are dancing in a dangerous manner.

The problem is not as clear cut as the result of the poll would suggest!
Doing air moves or even seducers /drops is a little bit like speeding or driving dangerously. We can all recognize it in others, but when we are at the wheel (or leading the moves), our perspective is very different, and we are convinced that we are safe!
I believe that as Peter suggests, we all have a lot more work educating everyone of the difference between perceived and actual safety of doing a move.

There are times though, like the party last Saturday and say O'Donaghues in Aberdeen, where a blanket 30 limit should apply, ie no lifts or drops at all.

Franck.

[TheTramp]

Some people are just complete MUPPETS!!! That's so right Lorna.

I, for one, am Animal!!

Steve

[Brady]

Originally posted by Dave Hancock
I think that anytime before such an event which is likely to be extremely busy (such as 10 yr parties, Scottish championships, Uk championships) etc, that teachers refrain from teaching moves as well as drops and leans, as all that happens is that in the following days these moves are used all too often as they are so fresh in one's mind.


Sorry Dave, but I think I'll have to side with Lorna and disagree with you on this one. As Lorna mentioned, if these moves are taught in a class, they are taught correctly and safely (or so we hope). It is without a doubt that at any competition or major party, there will be drops, dips, aerials, etc. performed either during a routine or by the more advanced dancers. This will be seen by those who don't know the moves and for some reason they get the idea that since they watched somebody else do it, they can now magically do it too!!! It is a serious Catch22 situation.

[Lorna]

Originally posted by TheTramp
That's so right Lorna.

I, for one, am Animal!!

Steve Me too, as the drummer for my school band, I was also nicknamed 'animal'. Loved it!!!!:devil:

lots alove Lorna x-x

[TheTramp]

You can't be Animal too. There's only one of me.

You can be the Swedish Chef or *ducks* Miss Piggy!!

Steve

[Heather]

:D :D :D Miss Piggy!!!!! I reckon you like to live dangerously!!!!
With comments like that about Lorna, you are "cruisin' for a bruisin'. " LOL.
:cheers:
Heather,
:kiss: :kiss:

[TheTramp]

I dunno. I got away with calling kilts 'skirts' in another post.

Besides, I'm 540 miles away from Aberdeen. It's a long way to come, just to get retribution!!

:grin:

Steve

[Lorna]

Originally posted by TheTramp

Besides, I'm 540 miles away from Aberdeen. It's a long way to come, just to get retribution!!

:grin:

Steve [/B]

Skating on very thin ice my friend.


Hmm, with a comment like that then 540 miles away is not far enough if you ask me, you tramp!!!:wink:

I'm sure you could have found something a little bit more appropriate than Miss Piggy!! If I hadn't just lost 1 and 1/2 stone from my post pregnancy bulge then I would be most upset and 540 miles away or not I would have sorted you out. :na:

Mind you, thinking about it, I am a bit of a Miss Piggy in terms of character - flambouyant, loud, entertaining and assertive to say the least but I DON'T EAT LIKE A FAT PIG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Lotsa love Lorna x-x

[TheTramp]

Hmmm. Maybe I'd better think about moving further. Sydney here I come!! :yum:

Steve

[Gus]

Originally posted by Lorna

I cannot take responsibilty for those who ignore my advice, as someone mentioned we are all adults and should be able to police ourselves. Some people are just complete MUPPETS!!! :grin:

Lotsa love Lorna x-x

Ummm ... not sure on this one Lorna ... but not saying I totaly disagree with you ... its a questio of where the responsibiltiy lies.

The poll shows ... for what its worth ... that some king of retribution is required. This begs two questions


How to identify the offenders
Who to execute 'retribution'


For the first point I think its is the responsibility of crew to keep an eye out for this incidents, especially of there are known offenders in the club. Also, club members should also be able to report incidents

The second part of the process is then to get the fcats right ... was the move really dangerous? Thats where the expert optinion of the teacher should be called in. BUT .... I feel that the responsibility to do 'something' about it rests squarely with the venue manager of the franchisee is present. AND ... to reduce the chance of any other muppet doing something similar, it should be made public knowledge that someone was 'retributed'.

I still have a desire to see the offender put in stocks on stage and beaten sensless with a haddock ... sorry, couldn't beat them senseles as they patently have no bl**dy sense or they wouldn't do the move in the first place:D

Can you tell I went to dance last night where some complete Richard Cranium was doing big drops and airsteps to every other beat ... regardless of the music?...and NOTHING was done about it!:reallymad :reallymad :reallymad

[Lorna]

Hello,



first of all,

The Tramp, everything's cool, I love the banter (sorry, not sure if this is the correct spelling). Don't stop, lurving it!!!:cheers:

secondly, Gus

Making people aware of the dangers involved with these types of moves is my responsibility and of course teaching them correctly, but I can't read people's minds and don't know when they are about to do such moves. If they do and I spot them (on a busy dancefloor) then I am the type of person who will tell them to stop and more importantly why! And I feel as though I have the right to do so. You mentioned the venue managers and I agree, they should take some responsibility, afterall they are responsible for the smooth running of the evening.

The reason that I entered this thread was because someone mentioned that it was a bit silly of me to teach a 'baby' jump move two days prior to an event. This is what I disagreed with. If anything, they were reminded about the safety required with such moves not to mention a basic understanding of spacial awareness.

Hey haven't heard from you for a while, did you get the PM I sent you?

Must go and spend some quality time with Tim, will log on tomorrow, enjoy your evenings everyone.

lotsa love Lorna x-x:kiss:

[TheTramp]

The Tramp, everything's cool, I love the banter (sorry, not sure if this is the correct spelling). Don't stop, lurving it!!!
Ummm. Banter was spelt perfectly. Not quite sure about later on in the sentence though. I think Heather is after you for that version of loving!!

I still have to agree with Lorna (sorry Gus, and it's not just cos she's cuter than you). If you teach the move, and emphasise the dangers of doing it - either in a crowded place, or with someone who doesn't want to do the move - then you've done as much as you can as a teacher. The only option left, is not to teach the move ever. But then, where does that go. Do you stop teaching moves that aren't airsteps, but take up space. Or any move where the lady goes behind the guy (Catapult for example). Since in most cases, injuries come from those moves, rather than people doing baby jumps or suchlike.

The people doing the moves are supposed to be adults. And, I agree, it's up to the managers of the venue to remind them of this fact.

What happened to the person who was supposed to come on here and justify all this then??

Steve

[Gus]

Originally posted by Lorna

secondly, Gus

Making people aware of the dangers involved with these types of moves is my responsibility and of course teaching them correctly, but I can't read people's minds and don't know when they are about to do such moves.
lotsa love Lorna x-x:kiss:
Urrggghhh ... thought I was previously agreeing with you:nice:

My basic points were;

Lorna teaches moves very well with good attention to safety points
Muppets ignore safety points and basic common sense
Muppets need to be identified by whomever
Muppets need to be dealt with severly
Preferable retirbution is unfeasibly vicious attack with large wet haddock (apologies to vegans)


Other than that ... muppets can make even yoyo's dangerous so you either educate or eradicate..... hey, I like the sound of that:waycool:

[LilyB]

Originally posted by Gus
For the first point I think its is the responsibility of crew to keep an eye out for this incidents, especially of there are known offenders in the club. Also, club members should also be able to report incidents."Should" being the operative word here. Reality is rather different. I was at Fulham Town Hall a short while ago and saw a well-known airstepper & his partner executing some very high and potentially dangerous aeriels on a packed dance floor. Many people were forced to move away, and those who didn't were clearly at risk of being kicked, bumped or hit by these two idiots. After watching them continue in this fashion for 3 tracks, I attempted to find the teacher to report them. I spent 10 minutes futilely looking for him - even going onto the stage to ask the DJ and to have a better view - but I was not able to see him. He was in fact too busy dancing to notice what was so obviously going on in his venue to do anything about it. Or if he did notice it (and I find it hard to believe he didn't), he saw no need to do anything about it! Suffice to say, at the end of 10 minutes of looking for someone to complain to, I gave up. (BTW, I did complain to the DJ but he either couldn't or wouldn't do anything)

.... I feel that the responsibility to do 'something' about it rests squarely with the venue manager of the franchisee is present..........I would have complained to the venue manager or franchisee but even after years of going to Fulham, I still do not know who they are!

I went back to Fulham a week later and guess what? Same couple was there - up to their usual tricks again, of course. I suppose they must think they have every right to do so as those in authority there have done nothing to stop them!!!!! :reallymad :reallymad :reallymad

Soooo........
..... I went to dance last night where some complete Richard Cranium was doing big drops and airsteps to every other beat ... regardless of the music?...and NOTHING was done about it!:reallymad :reallymad :reallymad I know EXACTLY how you feel:sick: :sad:

LilyB

[TheTramp]

I don't know if it's the same ones Lily, but there used to be a couple who did airsteps all the time at Fulham. Usually wear black (it's soooo slimming). Down at the front.

They are complete lunatics if you ask me. Anyone doing candlesticks (it's a move where basically the girl is doing a headstand on the guys shoulders), which was a favourite move of theirs, on a crowded dance floor, should be taken outside and shot. Let alone being beaten to a pulp with a wet haddock.

The venue manager on a Thursday used to be a bald guy called Andy. Of course, that information is about a year old. I suggest that a letter to ceroc head office might not be out of the question. Although, you'd think that the people running the venue might sort it out for themselves.

Steve

[Gus]

Originally posted by LilyB
I suppose they must think they have every right to do so as those in authority there have done nothing to stop them!!!!! :reallymad :reallymad :reallymad

LilyB

Lily, glad you've entered this debate as I know you are in the legal profession and I've always been concerned with the liability issue of this situation.

My very simplistic view was that as the venue manager and franchisee have an implicit duty of care, then if a dancer there is clearly a danger ...and they are aware of that danger ... then they are jointly liable for any injury caused by that dancer ... be it through physical injury or mental intimidation (or whatever). any truth there? Any legal eagles want to give a view???

[LilyB]

Originally posted by TheTramp
I don't know if it's the same ones Lily, but there used to be a couple who did airsteps all the time at Fulham. Usually wear black (it's soooo slimming). Down at the front.

They are complete lunatics if you ask me. Anyone doing candlesticks (it's a move where basically the girl is doing a headstand on the guys shoulders), which was a favourite move of theirs, on a crowded dance floor, should be taken outside and shot. Let alone being beaten to a pulp with a wet haddock.

The venue manager on a Thursday used to be a bald guy called Andy. Of course, that information is about a year old. I suggest that a letter to ceroc head office might not be out of the question. Although, you'd think that the people running the venue might sort it out for themselves.

Steve Yup, it's those two. Actually it's the same man - he now has a different partner (from the one a few years ago). But my sightings of them were within the last month. They now dance right at the back of the hall where they probably think there is more room, but believe me, still not enough BY A MILE.

I am prepared to complain to the teacher or venue manager, as the purpose would then be achieved (I hope) of putting a stop to the danger immediately. However I am not prepared to write a letter - it is no business of mine if certain dance venues have a policy of being willing to tolerate dangerous dancing. I will, of course, be more than happy to act as a witness (expert or otherwise) for anyone who is injured as a result of another dancer's dangerous moves, and who may wish to take legal action against the offending parties. I am sure I am not the only person horrified & perplexed by the shockingly inconsiderate dancing of SOME people:mad: :confused:

LilyB

[LilyB]

Originally posted by Gus
My very simplistic view was that as the venue manager and franchisee have an implicit duty of care, then if a dancer there is clearly a danger ...and they are aware of that danger ... then they are jointly liable for any injury caused by that dancer ... be it through physical injury or mental intimidation (or whatever). any truth there? Any legal eagles want to give a view??? There is a lot of truth in what you say, but a lot will also depend on the actual circumstances of each case, hence it is extremely difficult to generalise (and hence lawyers charge hefty fees for consultations:wink: ) However, it is good advice - free to anyone who wishes to take it - to do everything you can, as a dancer/teacher/venue manager/franchisee, to reduce the risk of another person being injured in a manner which would be obvious to any reasonable person. Prime example would be dancers executing obviously dangerous moves eg. somersaults, handstands on a busy dancefloor where such activity was plainly visible to those in charge of the venue (or brought to their attention) and they could have taken steps to stop it but failed to do so, and someone is injured as a result. This is just one (rather general) example; in these days of no-win-no-fee litigation, I rather suspect anyone with a potential claim will have little hesitation in seeking redress in the courts.

LilyB

[DavidB]

Originally posted by LilyB
...a well-known airstepper & his partner executing some very high and potentially dangerous aeriels on a packed dance floor.This man actually gives serial airsteppers a bad name! He is one of the reasons we stopped going to Hammersmith a couple of years ago, and may be a reason I stop going to Fulham. He is a menace. He is a danger to his partner as will as everyone in the hall.

It does worry me that someone has taught him these aerials. Call me old-fashioned, but I think advanced moves such as airsteps shouldn't be taught to people who can't even keep time to the music.

David

[TheTramp]

but I think advanced moves such as airsteps shouldn't be taught to people who can't even keep time to the music
Good point David.

When I first started dancing - at Fulham - I used to think that they were really good, because of all the lifts and things. (Ah, the bliss of innocence).

Anyhow, after many months, I finally got up enough courage to ask his old partner to dance. And found out that she was hopeless, and had no idea where the beat was.

I guess they haven't changed much in the last 3 years (well, change of personnel apparently, but only for a similar, flawed, model).

Steve

[Dreadful Scathe]

Aerials are not that difficult most of the time. What IS difficult is matching aerials to music, and these 'serial airsteppers' mostly dont even try to listen to the music - so why do they bother! they will impress beginners and no one else. Even in Breakdance where its almost ALL flashy moves, judges will mark you down at competitions if you are not 'dancing' to the beat. The big ego'd serial airsteppers should be 'told'!

Ive done quite a few aerials myself, at quieter nights but even they were proably too busy and ive stopped doing it. I find it hard to 'dance' aerial moves and I realised I wasnt impressing anyone - Ill eventually do aerials properly but it'd probably be for a competition or a demo of some kind.

[Franck]

Originally posted by LilyB
However, it is good advice - free to anyone who wishes to take it - to do everything you can, as a dancer/teacher/venue manager/franchisee, to reduce the risk of another person being injured in a manner which would be obvious to any reasonable person. Totally agree Lily, and this was my perception too.
Over the last 10 years, there have been a lot of dancers who just discovered the 'joys' of aerial moves and started showing off at Ceroc nights, and every time, we have stepped in to stop them. Unfortunately, this has always created resentment, and indeed, one of those dancers immediately left Ceroc and started a night of his own, where he could indulge in the moves he wanted, but more worryingly, started teaching those moves... :really:

Unfortunately, in large venues, it is not always easy for either the teacher or the venue manager to monitor all dancers, and in that respect, we would welcome feedback from dancers who notice such abuse. As mentioned before, it is better not to approach air-steppers directly, but to have a quiet word with the teacher / venue manager (who are usually at the front desk). We would then be in a position to talk to repeat offenders and, if necessary, take appropriate action (I have sent a 'wet haddock' to all venues in anticipation).

Franck.

[Brady]

Originally posted by Franck
As mentioned before, it is better not to approach air-steppers directly, but to have a quiet word with the teacher / venue manager (who are usually at the front desk).


I am a bit curious about why this is. Since moving here from the US, I have noticed that the majority of the British population are afraid to complain or present their opinion about things. If you've just had a dance next to one of the 'dreaded airstep couples' and felt unsafe, were hit, or whatever, why not approach them and tell them how you feel? In addition, take your case to the teacher/venue manager so that a case can be made against the repeat offenders. If enough people do this, perhaps they might get the drift (or maybe not :reallymad ). I would also think it would be more meaningful coming from the dancers, rather than the "bully" (teacher/venue manager) that is just there to "keep them from having fun".

Also with relation to this thread and dancers that are not experienced with dips, drops, or aerials, I ran across the following on a dance website, which had some clips of performances, from the US the other day. Found it quite interesting.

WARNING: THESE CLIPS CONTAIN LOTS OF AERIALS. WE ARE VERY SERIOUS WHEN WE SAY DO NOT TRY THESE. AERIALS ARE DANGEROUS AND EVERY ONE OF THEM INVOLVES A "TECHNIQUE" THAT YOU CANNOT FIGURE OUT JUST BY WATCHING THEM. If you wish to do aerials FIRST learn how to dance VERY WELL. With aerials timing is EVERYTHING. Then learn from a partnered couple who has been performing. Not your pal who saw somebody at a dance do it once. Only a few of the people in these clips are not professionals - and all have studied under professionals.

If you insist on attempting aerials without proper instruction we GUARANTEE that dancers who know what they are looking at will shun you for being so stupid. If this doesn't stop you, get off the dance floor.

[Gus]

Originally posted by Brady

I am a bit curious about why this is. Since moving here from the US, I have noticed that the majority of the British population are afraid to complain or present their opinion about things. If you've just had a dance next to one of the 'dreaded airstep couples' and felt unsafe, were hit, or whatever, why not approach them and tell them how you feel

Excellent point. I'm afraid that its just a British thing ... we're far too polite and non-confrontational for our own good ... thats why bullies thrive in our schools, work places and (sometimes) dance events ...... sorry, just thought I'd get that off my chest.:really:

Speaking for myself, I have taken the opportuntity to 'share' with the odd dancer that the could possible be a bit more carefull about theor fellow dancer and .... well lets say that I was not warmly appreciated. I don't know what the best answer is ... though I have to say that after giving out two warnings I do not regret banning the jackass from Nantwich club. Interesting point, once he was banned ... never had any more problems with airsteppers ..... methinks justice being seen to be done is a powerfull persuader.

As an aside, because of the dimensions of Nantwich, alwys intended to have the side dancefloor specifically for airsteppers but I was advised (informally) that that could make me liable if anything went wrong ..... just can't win:sad:

[Franck]

Originally posted by Brady
I am a bit curious about why this is. Since moving here from the US, I have noticed that the majority of the British population are afraid to complain or present their opinion about things. If you've just had a dance next to one of the 'dreaded airstep couples' and felt unsafe, were hit, or whatever, why not approach them and tell them how you feel? The problem is not that people don't feel they could talk to the 'offending' couple, they often do!
There are 2 issues here:

The first is that the aerial couple might not pay attention to any comments made on the dance floor by other Cerocers, and proceed to ignore them.

The second is that this might create bad feelings between dancers. My views is that you go to Ceroc to have a good time, not to be injured, and not to get involved in fights / recriminations. If any couple / person causes offence or trouble (and it does not have to be air moves only, but body odours or lewd behaviour etc...), the best practise is to mention it to either the teacher / Venue manager who will either deal with it or submit it in their venue manager report so that I am made aware of the problem and can suggest ways of dealing with it.

Franck.

[Dance Demon]

It seems to me that there are a lot of people out there that don't consider other dancers when the step out on the floor. I am constantly getting hacked off by people who just walk on and try to dance in the space that you are already dancing in!!!! I have lost count of the kicks in the ankle and elbows in the ribs that I've had due to people launching in to dips and seducers on a busy floor. Teachers always used to stress the need for consideration of others, maybe time to stress the point again as it seems to be a sore point (pardon the pun) with a lot of people:devil:

[Jon]

I note there is only 1 vote for "Applauded for their showmanship". Was this one of the people doing airsteps on a crowded dance floor I wonder!

[Gus]

Originally posted by Jon
I note there is only 1 vote for "Applauded for their showmanship". Was this one of the people doing airsteps on a crowded dance floor I wonder!
Don't think so ... an 'associate' of mine confessed down the pub after dance last Thursday .... either he follows through with his promise to scribe a few words or I shall out him!:devil:

OK ... as ODA the tiresome role of putting a counter view must rest on these shoulders so here goes....


WHat is it with you lot going on about airsteppers???? We have as much right to a social dancefloor as anyone else ... ther is much chance as being smacked in the face from a man's yoyo'd arm or the usual danger of ladies flinging thier 'style' arm out and not looking where it goes....

Most GOOD airsteppers do mini aerials on the dancefloor ... e.g. jump-splat, stratight lifts, hip-hop etc ... and many of these are allowed to be taught per Ceroc (orange moves) ... even half-loops. As long as the airsteppers keep an eye on the surrounding dancers then there is no trouble ... remember , its up to the other dancers to give us as much room as we give them.

In line with tradition you'll find us at the front .... where there tends to be more room. and why do we do them ... BECAUSE WE CAN ... they look great, the ladies want them and they the fun part of the dance .... thats why everyone notices them .. cause they look real cool:waycool: :waycool: :na:

Comments please?

[Franck]

Originally posted by Gus
and why do we do them ... BECAUSE WE CAN ... they look great, the ladies want them and they the fun part of the dance .... thats why everyone notices them .. cause they look real cool:waycool: :waycool: :na: Wow dude :waycool: , you got me convinced! I have seen the light :waycool: , can I be an air-stepper too please, please, please?????????? :nice:
I promise to be good (and work out :really: )

How do you signal a triple back-flip? :really:

Franck.
Only kidding folks, in case the irony is not dripping all over already :wink: Dance safe, and be happy!

[TheTramp]

Umm.

My advice to your friend is to next time cop a plea of insanity. There's more chance of being believed.

I'm generally taken to be quite a reasonable airstepper (UK Champion at Beach Boogie 2001 and 3rd place at Blackpool 2002 would be my credentials), and there is no way I'd have done an airstep for the majority of the night at the 10th anniversary party.

As for having as much right to the social dancefloor as anyone, this is true, but airsteps take up far more space than the majority of moves, and, lets be honest, a mans elbow doing a yo-yo is not the same as a girls feet being flung out at head height. Anyone who honestly believes that needs seeing to (although, I will admit that the is some danger from 'normal' moves, it in no way compares to the dangers of airstep moves).

Finally, I agree that good airsteps, done well, do look cool. Unfortunately, as previously said, most people doing airsteps do not do good ones, and most definitely do not look cool. I would also say that the majority of people doing them, can't.

Steve

[Gus]

Originally posted by TheTramp
Umm.

My advice to your friend is to next time cop a plea of insanity. There's more chance of being believed.
Steve

Oww ... unfair! Thought the ODA alter-ego did a fairly good job ..... not that I agree with some of his debate.

As you and Franck (and many others) have said, it comes down to floorspace and the competency of the dancers involved. At the end of the day, if the likes of Andy and Rena can (very) occaisionaly get it wrong (and the way they tell the story of Rena's broken arm is worth a workshop on its own) .... hen I think its safer for all just to have a blanket ban.

WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND is that no airsteppers (aside from you Steve) have joined in the debate ... if they don't feel comfortable enough to debate the subject openly, how can they feel comfortable doing it on a dancefloor????

[TheTramp]

Oww ... unfair! Thought the ODA alter-ego did a fairly good job I agree. The ODA did do a fairly good job. I wasn't commenting on the competancy of his arguement, merely on the content!!


WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND is that no airsteppers (aside from you Steve) have joined in the debate Well, David and Lily have voiced their opinions. They're rather good at that sort of thing too!! Interestingly, we're all on the same side. What you need are some airsteppers who think that it's ok to do airsteps on a crowded social dance floor. Where are the people from the anniversary party??

Steve

[Gus]

Originally posted by TheTramp
What you need are some airsteppers who think that it's ok to do airsteps on a crowded social dance floor. Where are the people from the anniversary party??

Steve

Well ... I could name names ... but that would be an abuse of the forum ....I think if the individuals concerned manage to contain themselves in future then all this thread will have been worthwhile! Intersting point, one of the offending parties is allegedly a trained Modern Jive teacher ... not Ceroc I hasten to say.:sick:

[TheTramp]

Hmmm. I only know of one other Modern Jive teacher who was at the party. I didn't get any specific training for teaching, so I know that you can't mean me :) That doesn't mean of course that it was him - I wouldn't know a lot of the teachers of Modern Jive from up North.

And interestingly, what sort of training did he have, if it was him? I didn't realise that other organisations (apart from ceroc obviously) have any form of training scheme.

Steve

[David Franklin]

Originally posted by Gus


Oww ... unfair! Thought the ODA alter-ego did a fairly good job ..... not that I agree with some of his debate.

As you and Franck (and many others) have said, it comes down to floorspace and the competency of the dancers involved. At the end of the day, if the likes of Andy and Rena can (very) occaisionaly get it wrong (and the way they tell the story of Rena's broken arm is worth a workshop on its own) .... hen I think its safer for all just to have a blanket ban.

WHAT I DON'T UNDERSTAND is that no airsteppers (aside from you Steve) have joined in the debate ... if they don't feel comfortable enough to debate the subject openly, how can they feel comfortable doing it on a dancefloor????

The reason I haven't weighed in is I'm trying to avoid the "do as I say, not do as I do" effect. The only airsteps specialists I know of that really do religiously stick to "no aerials on a social dancefloor" are David and Lily. But mind you, there's a very large difference between "social dancefloor", and "crowded social dancefloor". (And for that matter between a small knee lift and spinning someone around at head height). But I hope no-one advocates any aerials on a crowded floor.

I'd agree with DavidB that it's strange for teachers to show people aerials and then not expect them to actually do them. OK, the serious couples hire dance space (or gym space) specifically for practice, but it can be a fairly major expense. It's not surprising most people try to "sneak in" their practice at their normal dance venue. They probably feel a little guilty about it, but they still do it.

The bottom line is that people will do what they think is safe. The problem is that they're often wrong, and it's not just themselves they're endangering. So in the end, maybe a blanket ban at Ceroc is the most workable solution.

I do also wonder about whether Ceroc should teach airsteps at all. I've had a couple of worrying experiences and my conclusion was that the Ceroc approach ("we're all here to have fun and not take it too seriously") doesn't mix well with aerials. It doesn't matter how well the teacher is qualified if the class doesn't think it needs to pay attention. The attitude at classes where you actually have to book and sign a disclaimer first always seems to be a lot better - the people doing it know they're doing something potentially dangerous, and act accordingly.

Dave

[Gus]

Originally posted by TheTramp

And interestingly, what sort of training did he have, if it was him? I didn't realise that other organisations (apart from ceroc obviously) have any form of training scheme.

Steve

Ouuch ... you'll have the LeRoc people after your scalp! (OK ... that may well be a challenge:wink: )

As far as I'm aware LeRoc and the Ceroc breakaway organsiations, Blitz and MoJive, train their own teachers. I'm resisting my ODA role to make some comment re the standard of their training buy will resist ... cause I don't know. Well ... most people I've spoken to seem to regard the CTA training as the best (at least for teaching Beginners and Int classses) ... but I don't know to what extent people are really aware of what the other guys do...

Wonder if someone from thoise organsiations would like to voice a point of view ... know they've all got representatives on the forum.

Having said that ... if you train a muppet, he's still a muppet ... just a trained muppet. I've even seen a CTA teacher to two who I wouldn't let loose teaching an armjive.

[TheTramp]

Ouuch ... you'll have the LeRoc people after your scalp! Sorry if I offended anyone. But I'm unaware of any training for LeRoc - nothing at all like what the CTA do at least. LeRoc is run in a totally different way to Ceroc (as far as I'm aware). If you want to open up a venue, and call it LeRoc, then I believe that you can. And that's that.

I'm also sure that Blitz and MoJive wouldn't just let anyone loose on their classes without doing some form of training. Again, I'm also sure that there's quite a difference between what they, and ceroc do. Whether there's quite such a need to go to the lengths that ceroc do is another matter again though. There are some very good teachers who have never received any training, and some very bad teachers, who have received lots of training (and before I get myself in too much trouble, also some very good teachers who have received lots of training (and all levels in between)).

I think I'll shut up now....

Steve

[Keith]

Don't think so ... an 'associate' of mine confessed down the pub after dance last Thursday .... either he follows through with his promise to scribe a few words or I shall out him!


:devil:
Sorry I've been away for a while, so it's been interesting to see all the comments. Very surprised to see I was the only one applauding the Airsteppers, what's wrong with you lot?
Thought it might help with the debate. :D
I like a few others love airsteps, but again agree whole heartedly there is a time & a Place. Thinking about it logically though, whilst the Airsteppers were holding candle sticks etc, it did give the rest of us more room below them to dance in! If half the floor did a candlestick for 3 mins each think of the extra space we would all have!! :sick:

Any way as for my one airstep, that I confessed to! It was a straight lift with my partners body touching mine, as I lifted her up, in other words there were no flailing arms or legs & it was started from a Blues type move, very close & gracefully lifted, even though I do say so myself. She passes her left leg around my midriff & slides back to the floor, again down the front of my body. So this move is closer than a Blues move & causes less horizontal movement than a Basket. If somebody can explain how this could be dangerous, other than to extremely small people, below thigh height, then I will be back to beg your forgiveness. :sorry

Cheers Gus
Keith :wink:

[DavidB]

Originally posted by Keith
Thinking about it logically though, whilst the Airsteppers were holding candle sticks etc, it did give the rest of us more room below them to dance in! If half the floor did a candlestick for 3 mins each think of the extra space we would all have!!But then I couldn't do a helicopter - all these legs would be in the way! But I forget - bad airsteppers don't worry about anyone else.


It was a straight lift with my partners body touching mineEven simple lifts like the one you describe are dangerous. What happens when someone does a catapult into you whilst you are holding your partner...

David

PS I almost had a very interesting experience on Saturday. I was just about to do a travelling return, and was about to step past my partner. For some reason I decided to look down...
... and I saw a young lady's head about 2 inches from my crotch. I thought Christmas had come early!
Then I realised that her partner had done a drop, and had picked to only free space he could find - the space between me and my partner.
Normally I dread to think what would happen if I hit someone when they are doing a drop, but in this case it might have been worth it.

[Gus]

Originally posted by DavidB
and I saw a young lady's head about 2 inches from my crotch. I thought Christmas had come early!

I hope you at least got her name and number ... and as Lily may object, how about passing it on to us single folk:wink: :wink:

[TheTramp]

and I saw a young lady's head about 2 inches from my crotch. I thought Christmas had come early!Thanks David. I needed a laugh.

(joins queue behind Gus for said phone number)

Steve

[TheTramp]

If half the floor did a candlestick for 3 mins each think of the extra space we would all have!! Is that because of all the people that would have been in hospital??:rolleyes: (Just kidding).

Though, the main problem is, that it would have been all the ladies. So, I'd have had to have lots more dances with David and CJ!!

Steve

[Keith]

Hi David,
Even simple lifts like the one you describe are dangerous. What happens when someone does a catapult into you whilst you are holding your partner...
If the Catapult was from behind me, then I would have a nice comfortable landing, however and you are quite right, if it was in front of me, then I may get hurt, unless I could have twisted Janey round, whilst falling, therefore reducing any risk to ones self! :D
Janey also sends her regards & thanks you for a couple of nice dances. :wink:
Keith

[Keith]

Originally posted by DavidB
and I saw a young lady's head about 2 inches from my crotch. I thought Christmas had come early! P.S Not sure, but I think I recognise this lady! :o , :sorry
Keith

[TheTramp]

Originally posted by Keith
unless I could have twisted Janey round, whilst falling, therefore reducing any risk to ones self!I knew you must have married her for a reason (although, the fact that she's gorgeous, and lovely with it might also have had something to do with it maybe?

Steve