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David Bailey
31st-March-2005, 08:39 PM
Inspired by a recent comment (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=112577&postcount=130), and just because I like lists*, how about a list of "things they tell you at beginners' classes which you find out aren't really true":

I'll start you off:
1. It's always the leader's fault (OK, that one was easy)
2. ... ?

* And also to get away from some intermin - intamen - very long argue-threads...

TheTramp
31st-March-2005, 09:12 PM
1. It's always the leader's fault (OK, that one was easy)
Oh dear.

Sorry.

I believe that this one is true.... :flower:

spindr
31st-March-2005, 09:46 PM
Ummm, "Don't fight her -- let her lead" :)

Zebra Woman
31st-March-2005, 09:56 PM
2. You should always accept an invitation to dance (after all, it's only 3 minutes of your life)








You don't have to :innocent:

DavidY
1st-April-2005, 12:18 AM
1. It's always the leader's fault (OK, that one was easy)

Oh dear.

Sorry.

I believe that this one is true.... :flower:Hmmm that's interesting. Do you really believe it's always the leader's fault? Absolute statements like "always" and "never" aren't often true because you can usually find one example (and you only need one) that contradicts it.

For instance I was dancing recently and the dance went wrong for everyone on the dance floor at once - because the music completely stopped mid-dance after some sort of technical problem. In this case I would contend it was not the leaders' fault that the dance went wrong, for at least one leader in the room.

If the statement was "it's usually the leader's fault" or "it's nearly always the leader's fault" or even "it's the leader's fault a lot more often than most leaders think" then that would be different, of course. :flower:

Gadget
1st-April-2005, 01:01 AM
How about "there can always be fault found in the lead when a move goes wrong"?

TheTramp
1st-April-2005, 01:11 AM
Hmmm that's interesting. Do you really believe it's always the leader's fault? Absolute statements like "always" and "never" aren't often true because you can usually find one example (and you only need one) that contradicts it.

For instance I was dancing recently and the dance went wrong for everyone on the dance floor at once - because the music completely stopped mid-dance after some sort of technical problem. In this case I would contend it was not the leaders' fault that the dance went wrong, for at least one leader in the room.

If the statement was "it's usually the leader's fault" or "it's nearly always the leader's fault" or even "it's the leader's fault a lot more often than most leaders think" then that would be different, of course. :flower:
And they say that I'M a pedant :na: :flower:

MartinHarper
1st-April-2005, 01:54 AM
"Don't use your thumb."
"Men - you're in charge!"
"Transfer all your weight onto your back foot"
"Semi-circle and..."
"It doesn't matter which foot you step back with"
"The women come straight forwards, without turning, and you meet hip to hip"
"Turn the women back to the position they were in on the second count"

Most of them are just simplifications, I guess.

Lory
1st-April-2005, 02:09 AM
At least TRY and smile! :na:

El Salsero Gringo
1st-April-2005, 09:08 AM
"Ceroc is easy because it doesn't have any footwork."


"After 45 minutes, you'll have enough moves to dance the night away."

David Bailey
1st-April-2005, 09:21 AM
Oh dear.

Sorry.

I believe that this one is true.... :flower:

I'd agree with MartinHarper, it's a "lie-to-children" type of saying*, which is extremely useful as you learn, because it's simple, easy to remember, and forces the leader to accept responsibility for, well, leading.

But honestly (CF. back-leading thread), there are two people in the dance and both can make mistakes. If a leader gives a clear and firm lead, and it's not followed, how is that the leader's fault? Without wishing to degrade my wonderful thread into lead/follow arguments, I'd say "It's always the leader's fault" is a simplification, and that's the sort of thing I was trying to come up with - things that everyone says, which aren't totally correct.

I guess another one along these lines could be:
- "Anyone can learn to dance"

* OK, closet Terry Pratchett fan coming out...

TheTramp
1st-April-2005, 09:52 AM
If a leader gives a clear and firm lead, and it's not followed, how is that the leader's fault?
Obviously wasn't clear and firm enough.

Or maybe it was the wrong choice of move to do with that particular partner. In which case the leader is at fault for having chosen to do it :rolleyes:

Of course, the important thing to remember is: Who cares anyway. So, a move messed up. Carry on, and forget about it... :flower:

Andy McGregor
1st-April-2005, 10:11 AM
Where are all the guys this week*?

26 ladies on ...



*as if there were loads of guys last week.

Andy McGregor
1st-April-2005, 10:14 AM
2. You should always accept an invitation to dance (after all, it's only 3 minutes of your life)

You don't have to :innocent:

.. unless you are a real hunk, sexy, a fabulous dancer and you're being asked to dance by a woman in zebra patterned shoes :wink:

Lory
1st-April-2005, 10:35 AM
Cuddle wrap - you might want to introduce yourself to your partner before we attempt this move :na:

Nicky and Robert - Watching you! :na:

Aaaand give yourselves your great big clap! :clap:

Graham
1st-April-2005, 10:41 AM
.. unless you are a real hunk, sexy, a fabulous dancer and you're being asked to dance by a woman in zebra patterned shoes :wink:
I do wish people wouldn't comment on subjects they clearly know nothing about..... :wink:

bobgadjet
1st-April-2005, 11:02 AM
.. unless you are a real hunk, sexy, a fabulous dancer and you're being asked to dance by a woman in zebra patterned shoes :wink:
I suppose this is something that has been brought to yor attention rather than a personal experience :whistle:

spindr
1st-April-2005, 11:44 AM
"Gosh you must all be really good -- we've finished the class really quickly" :devil:

El Salsero Gringo
1st-April-2005, 12:04 PM
Addressed to those people dancing "for six weeks or less":

"The Taxi dancers will only be dancing with you guys, right the way up until 9:45 / 10 o'clock..."

El Salsero Gringo
1st-April-2005, 12:07 PM
Aaaand give yourselves your great big clap! :clap:
I don't remember if it was somewhere on this Forum, but I am reminded of that priceless line from the teacher...

"Let's give the DJ the clap, which he so richly deserves!"

hoo hoo hoo hee hee hee

Stuart
2nd-April-2005, 12:33 PM
We've got four easy moves for you tonight.

bigdjiver
2nd-April-2005, 01:35 PM
With a few selected newbies, with the "Sorries" :-

"If anything goes wrong, it is the leaders fault..."

dum-te-dum

dum-te-dum

"until we get to court, of course."

jivecat
11th-May-2005, 09:59 AM
"It's not etiquette to turn down a dance."

"Come and ask the teacher/demo for a dance, that's what we're here for."

Clive Long
11th-May-2005, 10:32 AM
Inspired by a recent comment (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showpost.php?p=112577&postcount=130), and just because I like lists*, how about a list of "things they tell you at beginners' classes which you find out aren't really true":

<< snip >> ...
1. Step back on your left (I know it's been debated before)
2. After six lessons you will be able to take part in the intermediate class (maybe the problem is me ...) .
3. "... and in, and turn, and forward and round, and together and out .... " (parody of some instructions in class)

CRL xxxx

Petal
11th-May-2005, 12:08 PM
.

I guess another one along these lines could be:
- "Anyone can learn to dance"



But, can they keep the beat to the music? :confused:

MartinHarper
19th-May-2005, 08:01 PM
I'd like to nominate "place your hand on the lady's hip". As far as I can tell, the lead point is the bonier bit right on the top of the woman's hip. The hip itself is less suitable, as it's fleshier and closer to the bum.

I'm also not wildly convinced that "shoulder" leads should be applied to the actual shoulder, so that's on my watchlist.

David Bailey
19th-May-2005, 08:41 PM
I'm also not wildly convinced that "shoulder" leads should be applied to the actual shoulder, so that's on my watchlist.
Hmmm... thinking about it, yes, I agree - I think it could run the risk of injuries if you actually pushed the shoulder bone itself too hard. I usually push on the shoulder-y part of the neck.

Jazz_Shoes (Ash)
19th-May-2005, 10:43 PM
Obviously wasn't clear and firm enough.

Or maybe it was the wrong choice of move to do with that particular partner. In which case the leader is at fault for having chosen to do it :rolleyes:

Of course, the important thing to remember is: Who cares anyway. So, a move messed up. Carry on, and forget about it... :flower:

One of the perks of dancing with Steve...it's always his fault... :whistle: :innocent: :wink:

and yes I Do know that he posted that 2 weeks ago, but I only read the thread today

Nick M
24th-May-2005, 10:16 PM
Hmmm that's interesting. Do you really believe it's always the leader's fault?

How about "it's always the leader's responsibility". Would that be more accurate?

MartinHarper
25th-May-2005, 12:18 AM
How about "it's always the leader's responsibility". Would that be more accurate?

It's not the leader's responsibility to follow. That's the follower's responsibility.

MartinHarper
26th-February-2007, 01:25 AM
Probably not top ten material, but recent:

"Never anticipate". Secretly, leaders rely on a wee bit of anticipation to make the dance work. Secretly, all followers anticipate at least a wee bit. It'd be more accurate to say "Anticipate as little as possible".

"Move your body, and let the movement of your body move your arm, rather than leading with your arm". The best leaders use a little arm movement, and small changes in the pressure they apply with their arm, in order to amplify the movement of their body. It's very difficult to follow a genuinely pure body lead.

straycat
26th-February-2007, 08:32 AM
How about "there can always be fault found in the lead when a move goes wrong"?

Or, if we want to get rid of the f-word (nasty word that it is) - "There's always something the lead could have done to stop it going wrong."

Non-absolutists can add a 'nearly' in if they like (I'm in a generous mood today)

straycat
26th-February-2007, 08:41 AM
Probably not top ten material, but recent:

"Never anticipate". Secretly, leaders rely on a wee bit of anticipation to make the dance work. Secretly, all followers anticipate at least a wee bit. It'd be more accurate to say "Anticipate as little as possible".

Interesting. Not sure I agree with that one, but I think I need to give it some thought.



"Move your body, and let the movement of your body move your arm, rather than leading with your arm".

Well - that is a pretty bad way to describe body-leads anyway. A good body lead is simply generated from your core, rather than originating in the arm / shoulder which is where arm leads start. So the arm / shoulder muscles are engaged, and are operating in concert with your body - doesn't mean that your arm isn't moving in relation to your body. A pure body lead (in the context I learned it) is very easy to follow.

David Bailey
26th-February-2007, 09:10 AM
"Never anticipate". Secretly, leaders rely on a wee bit of anticipation to make the dance work. Secretly, all followers anticipate at least a wee bit. It'd be more accurate to say "Anticipate as little as possible".
There's nothing wrong with knowing (or signalling) a move change in advance - that's continuous leading. So it's quite reasonable to set up a move, before you "lead" that move, and for a follower to react to that setup.

That's not "anticipation" in my book, that's "pre-leading" and "pre-following".

"Anticipation" is when a follower assumes something is coming with no jusitification - if there's jusitification, it's simply good following.

Good thread resurrection, BTW :clap:

JiveLad
26th-February-2007, 09:39 AM
Here's one they (well one taxi) used to say at the beginner's refresher after the main lesson:

"They've been teaching you moves - now we're going to teach you how to dance"

David Bailey
26th-February-2007, 09:42 AM
Here's one they (well one taxi) used to say at the beginner's refresher after the main lesson:

"They've been teaching you moves - we're going to teach you to dance"
Good grief, that's pretty patronising, isn't it? Not to mention demoralising.

What sort of taxi thinks they're a better teacher than, err, the teacher? And if so, why aren't they teaching?

Yes, I understand the distinction between teaching form and teaching technique - but to say something like that is just weird...

WittyBird
26th-February-2007, 09:44 AM
"They've been teaching you moves - we're going to teach you to dance"

That used to make me squirm :sad: I know exactly where you got it from. :eek:

straycat
26th-February-2007, 09:48 AM
That used to make me squirm :sad:

Well - the 'squirm' could be considered dancing... in some venues :devil:

Double Trouble
26th-February-2007, 10:15 AM
Our teacher Gordon at Cheshunt always used to say

"What ever the man offers you...take it with your right hand"

Arf, Arf...!

Was funny the first 20 times.:rolleyes:

MartinHarper
26th-February-2007, 10:44 AM
The arm / shoulder muscles are engaged, and are operating in concert with your body - doesn't mean that your arm isn't moving in relation to your body.

Decoding the double negative, that means that your arm IS moving in relation to your body?
That matches what I've been shown more recently. Previously I'd been told that in a body lead the arm stays static relative to the body (though naturally moves relative to the dance floor).

David Bailey
26th-February-2007, 10:56 AM
Decoding the double negative, that means that your arm IS moving in relation to your body?
That matches what I've been shown more recently. Previously I'd been told that in a body lead the arm stays static relative to the body (though naturally moves relative to the dance floor).
Assuming we're not talking about the strict frames of ballroom dancing, then I think, in a body lead, the main point with the arms is that they shouldn't be used to lead. (duh)

There's nothing to say that you can't move the arms - for example, for dramatic effect (most obviously in lunges, where you lift the left arm high) - as long as you're not moving the arms to actually provide a lead.

Of course, how this works in MJ is left as an exercise for the readers...

jivecat
26th-February-2007, 11:01 AM
Good grief, that's pretty patronising, isn't it? Not to mention demoralising.

What sort of taxi thinks they're a better teacher than, err, the teacher? And if so, why aren't they teaching?

Yes, I understand the distinction between teaching form and teaching technique - but to say something like that is just weird...

Well, it's not completely unknown for the taxi dancers to be as good as or a better dancer than the teacher, surely?

And indeed a better teacher - they would be giving a completely different type of teaching in the refresher class, anyway.

And the forum is generally agreed that lessons from the stage, whilst great for getting people on the floor, sometimes have certain woeful inadequacies regarding techniques, floorcraft, lead/follow etc, is it not?

And the taxi might not wish to become a fully fledged teacher, or be too old and ugly to become one.

I've attended some excellent refresher sessions which I thought were extremely well taught.

But yes, I have to agree that week on week, that line would become increasingly squirmworthy.

David Bailey
26th-February-2007, 11:15 AM
Well, it's not completely unknown for the taxi dancers to be as good as or a better dancer than the teacher, surely?
Absolutely - but we're talking about teaching, not dancing. And the implication ("Look kids, I'm a better teacher than the teacher") is not what you want to tell people.


And indeed a better teacher - they would be giving a completely different type of teaching in the refresher class, anyway.
Taxi dancers aren't trained (AFAIK) to teach, certainly not as much as teachers are. And even if they were trained to teach, I'd be amazed if they were trained to teach technique.


And the forum is generally agreed that lessons from the stage, whilst great for getting people on the floor, sometimes have certain woeful inadequacies regarding techniques, floorcraft, lead/follow etc, is it not?
Absolutely - but you're supposing the average taxi dancer will know this stuff, will be able to teach it, and also to clearly differentiate between form and technique. All big assumptions.

Teaching technique is difficult - apart from the skill levels required, you have to spend time with each person, and I don't believe you'll get that time in most review classes.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not slagging off taxi dancers, and I'm not saying basic technique ("take small steps", "don't yank", etc.) can't be taught in review classes. But saying "We'll now teach you to dance" is just wrong.

straycat
26th-February-2007, 11:16 AM
Decoding the double negative, that means that your arm IS moving in relation to your body?
That matches what I've been shown more recently. Previously I'd been told that in a body lead the arm stays static relative to the body (though naturally moves relative to the dance floor).

Well - unless you manage to lock your joints, and dance like a half-broken robot, your arms always have to move to some extent ;)

And given that it's quite possible (and often necessary) to use a body-lead to move lead your partner in a direction directly opposed to your own direction of travel (leading backstep from open, for example) - where clearly your arms have to move in opposition to (but not disconnected from) the body - this is where we get into the whole rubber-band / spring analogy.

I can understand why teachers will over-simplify it to begin with though, and teach that the arms stays static - the whole area of body-leads is so difficult to learn and to teach that simplifying it is necessary at the early stages (I tend to make the same simplification myself, to start with - otherwise you just end up confusing people.)

MartinHarper
26th-February-2007, 12:03 PM
Assuming we're not talking about the strict frames of ballroom dancing, then I think, in a body lead, the main point with the arms is that they shouldn't be used to lead. (duh)

There's nothing to say that you can't move the arms - for example, for dramatic effect (most obviously in lunges, where you lift the left arm high) - as long as you're not moving the arms to actually provide a lead.

That's what I was initially told about body leads, and what I now consider a simplification.

Now my feeling is that, when doing a body lead, the leader's arms should move relative to the leader's body, in a way that contributes to the overall lead. Pre-amplification, if you will. It was demonstrated to me in a very convincing way.


Given that it's quite possible (and often necessary) to use a body-lead to move lead your partner in a direction directly opposed to your own direction of travel (leading backstep from open, for example) - where clearly your arms have to move in opposition to (but not disconnected from) the body - this is where we get into the whole rubber-band / spring analogy.

Yeah, I'd been shown such things before. It was really the use of the arms even when leading my partner in the same direction that I was moving that took me by surprise.

I was working so hard on honing my half-broken robot dance style, too.

straycat
26th-February-2007, 12:55 PM
I was working so hard on honing my half-broken robot dance style, too.

Well - that in itself is extremely hard to achieve :wink: - tbh, if you can do that, and get your arms fully 'connected' with your core in that way, it could be that all you need to do is 'soften' that connection slightly, and you're there...

I should stress that with body leads, I absolutely do not consciously use my arms to amplify the body motion as you describe - if / when that happens, it (ideally) flows naturally from the movement of your body. I think. Half the problem is that this stuff is extremely hard to analyse, and it's easy to think you're doing one thing, when actually you're doing something completely different :what: