Mini-competitions

[El Salsero Gringo]

Does anyone think it would be desirable, practical, or popular if there were more small scale competitions? I am thinking "what if" every Ceroc venue organised one Sunday dance with competition for local members and dancers, with the dates coordinated not to clash in a region. Prizes could just be the satisfaction of doing well for an afternoon, and the focus wouldn't be on attracting big names or high-placed open-category dancers but to encourage regular dancers to work a little on their technique. There would be enough such mini-comps not to have to worry about missing one or more, and too many to make it worth anyone's while attending all of them. Perhaps judging could be restricted to musical interpretation and styling without worrying about difficult moves or complex choreography.

What started me thinking was a discussion last week with Bananaman about how many Ballroom competitions there are and so how many opportunities there are for low-level and medium-level Ballroom dancers to work towards a goal.

I know the ethos of MJ isn't competitive but social, but would that rule out what I have in mind?

[Gadget]

What's the catchment for a big competition? And how many people do they get from it? You could put one on, but I think that you would only get one or two entrys.

Why would the regular dancer want to be judged?

[philsmove]

In Bristol Trinity run “the best in the west “

A relatively low-key event

Now in its 2nd year and very popular with competitors and spectators

[Andreas]

What's the catchment for a big competition? And how many people do they get from it? You could put one on, but I think that you would only get one or two entrys.

Why would the regular dancer want to be judged?

There is a good number of people who'd like to compete. These small-scale comps could serve well as 'practice' for the big ones because people get used to being centre of attention hence don't show nerves when it really counts.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Why would the regular dancer want to be judged?Well, I can imagine a train of thought along these lines:

"I don't want to enter a national competition, because I don't consider myself a 'national' standard dancer. I don't want to build up to an annual event with all the nerves and performance worries that would mean. I don't want to appear on the same stage as the 'big names' because I don't like being the appetizer to someone else's main course. And I don't want to travel a long distance, stay overnight and devote the best part of my weekend to it.

"I would like, however, to have a local event which would give me an incentive to find a partner, put in a few days practice, tune myself up, and have a laugh. Because it's not in front of a 'national' audience I really don't care if I come last, I don't have to find the 'perfect' partner - nor does he/she have to feel that I am the perfect partner for him/her, nor do I have to dress up to please the crowd.

"And, because I know that there's another mini-competition a few miles away in a month's time, and another one three weeks after that - also nearby, I can get some good feedback about my dancing by seeing if I can make some progress month on month."

Now a lot of that is perhaps based on irrational prejudice, unjustified, incorrect or can otherwise to be argued about by the good and the great. But it's not unreasonable to think that there might be quite a few people who think that way. Obviously the bank-balance of the organiser of any such event is the best long-term indicator as to whether that's the case or not.

Oh, and the other benefit would be that because the judges would be different each time (and probably of variable quality) you can shrug off a result you don't like, and move on to the next one!

[Little Monkey]

There is a good number of people who'd like to compete. These small-scale comps could serve well as 'practice' for the big ones because people get used to being centre of attention hence don't show nerves when it really counts.

:yeah:
Totally agree! And I think a lot of people might participate just for fun, as a warm up or practice for bigger comps, or to se what competing is like. I think the main emphasis for these competitions should definitely be FUN, not "who's best". And lucky dip would be an excellent way for total competitinon "virgins" / those without dance partners to get introduced to competitions.

Even people who don't compete at the big events for various reasons (nerves, too far away, cost etc), might want to participate in smaller local events like this.

Bring it on!!

Little Monkey

[Andy McGregor]

My own opinion is that there is no bar to entering the "National" competition. Anybody of any ability can enter. And, judging by the number of people who enter who aren't even on the beat, they don't really worry about the standard of their dancing.

I think that for some people the "National" competitions could be perceived as scary. So I think that there would be a place for smaller, regional competitions. But I think that Ceroc would be the wrong people to organise these events. There will always be a perception that Ceroc had a political or commercial agenda (show me some evidence that they haven't). I'm sure Ceroc could set up something that would be perceived as independently judged - but while they continue to choose ALL the judges and use Ceroc teachers as the mainstay of their judging panel this perception of a hidden/second agenda will continue.

What we need it for Divissima to set up the MJDA to create a programme of regional competitions - or at least recruit the judges for any commercial organisers that want to run a competition :flower:

[El Salsero Gringo]

My own opinion is that there is no bar to entering the "National" competition. Anybody of any ability can enter. And, judging by the number of people who enter who aren't even on the beat, they don't really worry about the standard of their dancing.

I think that for some people the "National" competitions could be perceived as scary. So I think that there would be a place for smaller, regional competitions. But I think that Ceroc would be the wrong people to organise these events. There will always be a perception that Ceroc had a political or commercial agenda (show me some evidence that they haven't). I'm sure Ceroc could set up something that would be perceived as independently judged - but while they continue to choose ALL the judges and use Ceroc teachers as the mainstay of their judging panel this perception of a hidden/second agenda will continue.

What we need it for Divissima to set up the MJDA to create a programme of regional competitions - or at least recruit the judges for any commercial organisers that want to run a competition :flower:

Not what I had in mind at all. I don't want a series of standardised, regional competitions run by any single agency. I'd quite like to see individual franchises - of Ceroc, not because they're God's gift to organisation, but simply because at least round here they have the most venues - organise their own mini-comps. Just like they organise their own freestyle nights. They already have the venues, the DJ's, the equipment and most importantly, the customers.

I'm not going to comment on your "second agenda" problems because I don't want you to hijack this discussion about mini-competitions with inter-organiser politics. If you think there's merit in the idea of an independent panel of judges then great - you've made your point. But leave the unpleasant sniping elsewhere please....

[Heather]

Does anyone think it would be desirable, practical, or popular if there were more small scale competitions?


NO !!!

:hug:
Heather,
xx

[Heather]

I know the ethos of MJ isn't competitive but social, but would that rule out what I have in mind?
YES !!

:hug:
Heather,
xx

[El Salsero Gringo]

OK, Heather. I think I'm clear where you stand on this.










And a trifle deaf.







.

[TheTramp]

NO !!!

:hug:
Heather,
xx
Since you won the last small scale competition that I know of in the area Heather, one might have thought you'd be more amenable to the idea....

:flower:

[Lynn]

Yes! I'm going to have the first NI MJ competition in... about 10 years time :tears:

Seriously though, I had a go at a competition last year, totally for fun - and it was, also a steep learning curve (both thanks to Andy :hug: )

I would love to do more someday as it taught me a lot about my dancing, even though I didn't dance too well on the day (I've seen the video! :really: :tears: ) it did build my confidence.

I've only ever competed in one other thing in the past - show jumping - and it was all small local shows. They were fun, something to aim for, a great shared experience with fellow competitiors... if smaller MJ competitions could achieve those things as well I think that would be great.

[David Bailey]

Does anyone think it would be desirable

Hmmm, no, not really.


practical

Definitely not - the organisational overhead for this is extreme, and without some convincing case that it'll bring in more punters, it'll never fly, Wilbur. You've got to balance the time it takes to run (at least an hour) as a loss of that hour in freestyle, and whether that loss would be commercially viable to most local franchises.


or popular

Could be for a while - novelty value, at least. One out of three then :)

I personally woul;dn't like it simply because of the extra time it'd take up - I always get impatient waiting to dance when a comp is announced.

[El Salsero Gringo]

I personally woul;dn't like it simply because of the extra time it'd take up - I always get impatient waiting to dance when a comp is announced.You could always try entering, then!


Would it really take an hour? Two tracks each for say three rounds - that's only about 20 minutes of music. And for the final rounds you'd only need half the dance floor.

And, since it would be an extra event (not part of a regular freestyle or class night) then why would it bother you? If you didn't want to enjoy the freestyle between competition rounds, just don't go!

[David Bailey]

You could always try entering, then!

Eek, too scary, all these super-dancers... :blush:


Would it really take an hour? Two tracks each for say three rounds - that's only about 20 minutes of music. And for the final rounds you'd only need half the dance floor.
You would be amazed and astonished how much time these things do take up - I timed one a while back at Cheshunt, Mini-champs or something, 6 couples, 1 track each - took nearly an hour... Lots of faffing around between time, basically, not just the dancing time. Humans, they're so disorganised.



And, since it would be an extra event (not part of a regular freestyle or class night) then why would it bother you? If you didn't want to enjoy the freestyle between competition rounds, just don't go!

Ahhh, didn't read that bit, apologies. But then I fall back on my tried and trusted commercialism arguments - I'm not convinced that this sort of thing done frequently is a money-spinner. I know, cerocmetro do it, but I'm not going to let the facts get in the way of my opinions... :D

[Gadget]

So what is it about the micro-competition that you are aiming to acheive?

Entering...
- Practice with a partner and get good? Why do you need a competition to do that? Does the competition just give you a goal to aim towards?
- Rate yourself against everyone else? See how your dancing compares to everone elses from an 'outside' viewpoint?
- Perform infront of a crowd and show off your skills? A chance to add some extra 'drama' and flamboyance to your dancing without being branded a peacock? Have a large(er) area of dance floor all to yourself so that you can do some 'big' moves?
- Use it as an experiance to get a feel for the pressures you would be under in a 'real' competition?
- ...?

Hoasting...
- Raise the awareness of your club/venue/area?
- get like-minded people together?
- give your 'punters' something extra and unique every now & again?
- make money?
- ...?

There are counter arguments to every point above, but what would you be looking to get from it?

[Andreas]

- Practice with a partner and get good? Why do you need a competition to do that? Does the competition just give you a goal to aim towards?

Indeed it does give people a goal as they FEEL like they have to make an effort if they enter. I used to practice heaps w/o needing comps to 'prove' myself. However, most people do not have the discipline or drive to do that.



- Rate yourself against everyone else? See how your dancing compares to everone elses from an 'outside' viewpoint?

Not that this was ever a motivation for me but our world is competitive, so people do like to compare themselves or get recognition for placings in comps.



- Perform infront of a crowd and show off your skills? A chance to add some extra 'drama' and flamboyance to your dancing without being branded a peacock? Have a large(er) area of dance floor all to yourself so that you can do some 'big' moves?

Well, the space on the floor is definitely Trampy's motivation :D But you must not forget that there are exhibitionists among us :rofl:



- Use it as an experiance to get a feel for the pressures you would be under in a 'real' competition?

This is what I would suggest these mini comps for (as posted previously).



- Raise the awareness of your club/venue/area?
- get like-minded people together?
- give your 'punters' something extra and unique every now & again?
- make money?

yes; positive side effect; yes; definitely yes :D

[El Salsero Gringo]

So what is it about the micro-competition that you are aiming to acheive?

Entering...
- Practice with a partner and get good? Why do you need a competition to do that? Does the competition just give you a goal to aim towards?
- Rate yourself against everyone else? See how your dancing compares to everone elses from an 'outside' viewpoint?
- Perform infront of a crowd and show off your skills? A chance to add some extra 'drama' and flamboyance to your dancing without being branded a peacock? Have a large(er) area of dance floor all to yourself so that you can do some 'big' moves?
- Use it as an experiance to get a feel for the pressures you would be under in a 'real' competition?
- ...?

Hoasting...
- Raise the awareness of your club/venue/area?
- get like-minded people together?
- give your 'punters' something extra and unique every now & again?
- make money?
- ...?

There are counter arguments to every point above, but what would you be looking to get from it?
They all sound pretty good reasons to me. Of course there are counterarguments, but ultimately it's whether people would attend... you can't argue people into not holding events if their customers like it.

The point of having a competition to work towards is that it provides a timescale for you; just like some people do their best work when they have a deadline to meet.

And a point for organisers would be that they would attract competitors not just from their own clubs but from others nearby too so it would be a chance to show-case their DJ's and venues.

[Andreas]

Since you won the last small scale competition that I know of in the area Heather, one might have thought you'd be more amenable to the idea....

:flower:

Who wouldn't like to be remembered as the last of a kind :D :rofl:

[Gus]

Of course there are counterarguments, but ultimately it's whether people would attend... you can't argue people into not holding events if their customers like it.We held a fair few of such competitions at our Northwich freetsyles ... during the year I think we had Blues, Double Trouble, Intermediate and DWAS ... and I would liked to have held more. I thought they went well to inspiring dancers to improve their dancing and they brought more people into the club. Having said that the new owners of Northwwich aren't so sure ... will be interesting to see how things pan out over the next 12 months.

[Russell Saxby]

I'm not going to comment on your "second agenda" problems because I don't want you to hijack this discussion about mini-competitions with inter-organiser politics. If you think there's merit in the idea of an independent panel of judges then great - you've made your point. But leave the unpleasant sniping elsewhere please....

here here..

Russell
Ceroc Teacher & Franchise Owner (just so everyone is clear)

[Andy McGregor]

I'm not going to comment on your "second agenda" problems Of course it's OK to say you're not going to comment on something ...


because I don't want you to hijack this discussion about mini-competitions with inter-organiser politics. If you think there's merit in the idea of an independent panel of judges then great - you've made your point. But leave the unpleasant sniping elsewhere please....

.. and then comment on it :whistle:

But, the sentiment behind what ESG is saying is one I agree with (for ChrisA that's a sentiment that I can not disagree with :devil: ). I think the organising of small, local dance competitions would be a fab idea - in fact I think I'll organise some myself. Thanks for the prompt, ESG.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Of course it's OK to say you're not going to comment on something ...
.. and then comment on it :whistle: I'm glad you enjoyed that little amuse-bouche of irony, Andy. It was served just for you.


I think the organising of small, local dance competitions would be a fab idea - in fact I think I'll organise some myself.Good stuff. PM me the details, and I'll try to come along to one.

[ChrisA]

... the sentiment ... is one I agree with (for ChrisA that's a sentiment that I can not disagree with :devil: ).
Andy, we all know that even if you agree with something, you're perfectly capable of disagreeing with it as well just to be contrary.

So don't go giving me any of this 'they're the same thing' guff.

:flower:

[Andy McGregor]

I'm glad you enjoyed that little amuse-bouche of irony, Andy. It was served just for you.

Good stuff. PM me the details, and I'll try to come along to one.

.. and then say it was on purpose :wink:


Good stuff. PM me the details, and I'll try to come along to one.Once I've found a venue and fitted it in with all the other dances I've got on - any suggestions for a venue South West of London for the South-East Regional Championships. And anybody like to be one of the judges?

[El Salsero Gringo]

South-East Regional Championships.Oh dear - that wasn't what I had in mind at all!

[David Franklin]

Once I've found a venue and fitted it in with all the other dances I've got on - any suggestions for a venue South West of London for the South-East Regional Championships.I think we were thinking a little more local than that.

Actually, I hear Jango is going to hold separate "left hand side of the room near the stage", "left hand side near the entrance", "right hand side near stage", and "right hand side near bar" competitions... (there was a rather ridiculous oversupply of national champions and Jive Masters competitors there on Monday).

[Will]

I think we were thinking a little more local than that.

Actually, I hear Jango is going to hold separate "left hand side of the room near the stage", "left hand side near the entrance", "right hand side near stage", and "right hand side near bar" competitions... (there was a rather ridiculous oversupply of national champions and Jive Masters competitors there on Monday).
Let's be honest and admit that the oversupply of National Champions purely and solely down to the 3 track set that I played whilst DJ Kenobe went to clear the dance floor in his "Shirt for the visually impared". Fortunately the tracks I played were so PHAT! that even Kenobe's "Pavement Pizza" top couldn't shift them away....

[David Franklin]

Let's be honest and admit that the oversupply of National Champions purely and solely down to the 3 track set that I played whilst DJ Kenobe went to clear the dance floor in his "Shirt for the visually impared". Fortunately the tracks I played were so PHAT! that even Kenobe's "Pavement Pizza" top couldn't shift them away....Not to spoil any stag night surprises, but the truth is Toby "there can be only one" Kenobe chose Monday night to ask for contributions to the "stitch Will up and maximise your chances at the Ceroc champs" contract, which caused a huge rush of top dance talent to the venue! Between us we've managed to scrape up (and I do mean scrape): one glass of KH red wine (pint glass, natch), one dunkin donut (DavidB dropped it), and a signed photo of Stevie Wong in "the shirt". Oh yes, and Toby has promised to throw in that track that kept glitching after he's played it at your wedding...

Dave

[Clive Long]

... there was a rather ridiculous oversupply of national champions and Jive Masters competitors there on Monday
and if you are thinking Jango's elitist, they let us lesser mortals in and even let us dance with the champs ... :wink:

[Feelingpink]

Let's be honest and admit that the oversupply of National Champions purely and solely down to the 3 track set that I played whilst DJ Kenobe went to clear the dance floor in his "Shirt for the visually impared". Fortunately the tracks I played were so PHAT! that even Kenobe's "Pavement Pizza" top couldn't shift them away....

At least his anaglypta wallpaper in battleship grey shirt went with his hat without making him look like a leprechaun ... unlike others who donned said same headwear. :wink:

[ChrisA]

and if you are thinking Jango's elitist, they let us lesser mortals in and even let us dance with the champs ... :wink:
Heavens, you've given the game away now, Clive.

They'll be letting any old riff-raff in now :eek: