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View Full Version : Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?



Gus
27th-March-2005, 12:37 PM
Inspired by the "Dance Fever" program and associated thread.

{ODA Mode ON}

So ..... what real line dancing is actually like has been presented to the common masses ... and mighty fine it was to! For some time its been apparent that line dancers have also been coming across to MJ and making significant inroads .... YET , MJers have traditionally looked down their noses to the cowboy hats and Cuban heel fraternity. There is a real possibility that instead of gaining dancers from this program people will move over to line dancing, which is a richer dance form with more opportunity for expression. Its a fact that line dancing is FAR bigger than MJ ... there are clubs everywhere, a huge underground following and its one of the few areas where the UK competes head to head with the US. Line dancers have their own successful magazine ... whats the chance of that ever happening with MJ?

In short ... line dancing is already where MJ aspires to be. In the public eye, national, dancer from teens to OAP ... and with impact its already made in Strictly Dance Fever ... likely to pull even further ahead!

{ODA Mode OFF}


{ODA Counter Point ON}

Interesting view expressed above ... but with a fundamental flaw ... MJ is simpler to learn! Line dancing involves footwork ... and in the crucial first few weeks of learning to dance that is what is likely to put people off. Also, the fact that MJ can be danced to modern ,music will always give MJ the edge is accessibility. Last thought .... though MJ has a problem with its association to the word 'Jive' ... line dancing has a far bigger image problem with its cowboy boot image.

{ODA Counter Point OFF}

ChrisA
27th-March-2005, 01:31 PM
Its a fact that line dancing is FAR bigger than MJ ... there are clubs everywhere, a huge underground following and its one of the few areas where the UK competes head to head with the US.


Line dancing involves footwork ... and in the crucial first few weeks of learning to dance that is what is likely to put people off.


So how do you square these two points, Gus?? :confused:

Gus
27th-March-2005, 01:39 PM
So how do you square these two points, Gus?? :confused:Urrr ... they were CONTRA points, they arn't supposed to be 'squared' .... I was presenting two sides of the argument in true ODA style ... wasn't that clear?

DavidY
27th-March-2005, 01:52 PM
Inspired by the "Dance Fever" program and associated thread.
~SNIP~Its a fact that line dancing is FAR bigger than MJ ... there are clubs everywhere, a huge underground following and its one of the few areas where the UK competes head to head with the US. Line dancers have their own successful magazine ... whats the chance of that ever happening with MJ?Do line dancers have a web forum like this one? I'd be interested to know what their view of last night's SDF was.

Clive Long
27th-March-2005, 01:54 PM
Do line dancers have a web forum like this one? I'd be interested to know what their view of last night's SDF was.

:yeah:
Yeah, that would be interesting - "always try and see the situation from the opponents position Clive"

Hmmmmm ......

CRL

frodo
27th-March-2005, 01:58 PM
Inspired by the "Dance Fever" program and associated thread.

{ODA Mode ON}
...
{ODA Mode OFF}


{ODA Counter Point ON}
... Also, the fact that MJ can be danced to modern ,music will always give MJ the edge is accessibility ....
{ODA Counter Point OFF}

Not sure about the 'always'. Is there anything inherent about line dancing that says it cannot be danced to 'Modern' music.

From http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A669512

"Early line dances were performed to disco music, as much as to country and western, and line dancers would dance to whatever was played"

ChrisA
27th-March-2005, 02:05 PM
Urrr ... they were CONTRA points, they arn't supposed to be 'squared' .... I was presenting two sides of the argument in true ODA style ... wasn't that clear?
Well I don't always understand your ODA thang... sometimes you seem to stick the tags round your own opinions when they're likely to be contentious.

But IF it's a fact that LD is bigger than MJ (in the UK as well??), then all this "MJ doesn't teach footwork so as not to scare off the beginners" seems a bit silly to me.

Especially as some elements of footwork make some things much easier to learn, not harder.

El Salsero Gringo
27th-March-2005, 02:14 PM
Urrr ... they were CONTRA points, they arn't supposed to be 'squared' .... I was presenting two sides of the argument in true ODA style ... wasn't that clear?
{Sarcastic ars*hole mode ON}

That was absolutely clear. You did however forget the poll so we could take a quick vote to choose which of your two opinions we prefer, then you can wrap it up with a quick conclusion on our behalf and we'll all be home in time for tea and medals.

{Sarcastic ars*hole mode OFF}

I'm sure life was simpler when we only had to have one point of view from each person. Doesn't it take some of the interest out of a debate when you're not responding to someone's honest opinion?

For my part, I think Clive Long puts the image problem of Line Dancing in spectularly sharp focus when he says
Those ghastly spangly cowboy hats, check shirts and mother of pearl buttons,
Those endlessly repetitive movements with no "flow" across the floor nor interaction between partners.,
The sentimental, twangy, nasal music

philsmove
27th-March-2005, 02:19 PM
The line dancers were very impressive and I will be off to my local class to give it a try

:blush: (I Have thing about ladies in boots) :blush: :drool:

However if I was not already addicted to dance, I don’t think I would be quite so keen
The great thing about SCD was it showed people leaning from scratch, rather than people who were already dancing

I think I'm correct in saying the Matt and Bex who were part of the double trouble winners at Blackpool started as line dancers


Bex do you still line dance

MartinHarper
27th-March-2005, 02:20 PM
Footwork is tricky, but it's easier than lead/follow.

ChrisA
27th-March-2005, 02:30 PM
Footwork is tricky, but it's easier than lead/follow.
Ah, well let's abandon lead/follow too, then...

... ah, they already did :rolleyes:

Gus
27th-March-2005, 02:33 PM
However if I was not already addicted to dance, I don’t think I would be quite so keen
The great thing about SCD was it showed people leaning from scratch, rather than people who were already dancing I have to agree. I think that Jo Public will identify better when they see competitiors doing dance styles they are less familar/comfortable with ... allowing them to identify more. If all the public sees is good dancers getting better the show may actual work AGAINST MJ .. making it look too complicated from day 1 leaving people thinking "I could never do that".

Gus
27th-March-2005, 02:37 PM
I'm sure life was simpler when we only had to have one point of view from each person.And I'm sure life was simpler when we didnt have to debate things in public before the Forum came into being :whistle:


Doesn't it take some of the interest out of a debate when you're not responding to someone's honest opinion? Who says they are not my honest opinion? I have mixed feelings about the LD thing. All I've done is polarised my views and presented them as two different arguments. In the past the Froum has had no problem in identifying with the view that they hold dearest and continuing the debate from there. My hope is that some of the LD converts to MJ chip in with their own views ... there are many more out there than you imagine...

El Salsero Gringo
27th-March-2005, 03:06 PM
Who says they are not my honest opinion?Er, well, actually Gus, you do, here, (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?p=107861&highlight=ODA#post107861) when you said
...because ... you herbert ... I dont actualy hold sway with teh 'ODA' comment As a newcomer maybe you miss the point but I have a tendancy of putting forward a view that draws debate. Some people may hold sway with that view ... I DON'T!


Do you really think that "Line dancing is already where MJ aspires to be?"

Gus
27th-March-2005, 03:12 PM
Do you really think that "Line dancing is already where MJ aspires to be?"Dunno .... club in every town and Hamlet, guys at the top able to mix it with pro-dancers, able to compete head on with the US, own quality magazine that is sold in shops, very large dance base ...... If the MJ franchise could be applied to LD I could retire in 5 years!

RobC
27th-March-2005, 03:26 PM
I have to agree. I think that Jo Public will identify better when they see competitiors doing dance styles they are less familar/comfortable with ... allowing them to identify more. If all the public sees is good dancers getting better the show may actual work AGAINST MJ .. making it look too complicated from day 1 leaving people thinking "I could never do that".
Come on guys - lets not forget that last night, and the next 2 weeks are just a televising of the last round of auditions where the couples are showing off what they can do in their area of dance. The real test starts for the final 10 couples when they enter the house together. I haven't seen a full list of dances they will be expected to learn and perform to, but Argentinian Tango and Lindy Hop are two I heard mentioned from the Judges.

Not heard any mention of MJ or Ceroc though :sad:

Groovy Dancer
27th-March-2005, 04:20 PM
{Sarcastic ars*hole mode ON}


For my part, I think Clive Long puts the image problem of Line Dancing in spectularly sharp focus when he says

'Those ghastly spangly cowboy hats, check shirts and mother of pearl buttons,
Those endlessly repetitive movements with no "flow" across the floor nor interaction between partners.,
The sentimental, twangy, nasal music.'


I hope that MJ'ers don't have this view of line dancing. I can definitely say that it not the image you get if you do visit a venue. If you love dancing, it is worth a try. :clap:
I have done LD for about 5years it hasn't done me any harm :wink: , only make MJ dancing quite enjoyable. :yeah:

IMHO line dancing allows me to be very diciplined with my feet, which gives a very good foundation doing MJ other forms of dancing. :nice:

KGD

bigdjiver
27th-March-2005, 05:04 PM
..."Early line dances were performed to disco music, as much as to country and western, and line dancers would dance to whatever was played"AFIK You can line dance to a wide range of music, probably anything you can MJ to.

Early American line dances were allegedly a single sex non-partner cowboy around-the-campfire dances. There are other antecedants in Greek, African and Jewish dance, and probably many other cultures.

Is there partner line dance, where all of the "guys" are doing one step, and all of the ladies another? ( :sitting duck: comment ?)

ji vep
27th-March-2005, 05:33 PM
Strictly Dance Fever was great to watch. Jodie & her partner (line-dancing)were fabulous and for those who know Jodie, she is a fabulous to watch at west Coast swing as the line dancing element comes from NASDE swing. Jodie also performed a routine at MJC 8 with Paul Warden which was probably the best showcase I have seen to date. I think she will be a contender for the money considering her dance background is so varied.

Winnie
27th-March-2005, 06:07 PM
I know that people have different opinions about how MJ should be taught, but what do people think about (dance coach) Kevan Allen's point - that line dancing contain elements of ballet and tap? :confused:

Lou
27th-March-2005, 06:09 PM
I think I'm correct in saying the Matt and Bex who were part of the double trouble winners at Blackpool started as line dancers
Yup - and they still do line dance. I'm certain Bex has won medals, and I think Matt has too.

I was bemused by the first LD couple. The second ones did more of what I've seen Matt & Bex do as "line dancing".

After watching the show, I'd definitely try LD, but only if I could find a class without ghastly music. :whistle:

ElaineB
27th-March-2005, 07:26 PM
Yup - and they still do line dance. I'm certain Bex has won medals, and I think Matt has too.

I was bemused by the first LD couple. The second ones did more of what I've seen Matt & Bex do as "line dancing".

After watching the show, I'd definitely try LD, but only if I could find a class without ghastly music. :whistle:


Matt and Becky also came second in the Intermediates at Brighton and third at Blackpool. You should see their 'line dancing spins' - wow!


Elaine

MartinHarper
27th-March-2005, 09:05 PM
What do people think about (dance coach) Kevan Allen's point - that line dancing contain elements of ballet and tap? :confused:

Well, MJ contains elements of Lindy, and Lindy contains elements of tap. Does that count? Does it matter? Is it a good enough excuse for stomping my way through "Now I can dance"?

David Bailey
27th-March-2005, 09:12 PM
For my part, I think Clive Long puts the image problem of Line Dancing in spectularly sharp focus when he says

Quote:
Those ghastly spangly cowboy hats, check shirts and mother of pearl buttons,
Those endlessly repetitive movements with no "flow" across the floor nor interaction between partners., The sentimental, twangy, nasal music

Yes, I confess that Clive's comment has always been my standard reaction, but when I think about it, an outsider could similarly diss MJ ("those '50s tunes, those spatz"), salsa ("those sleazy clubs, that samey music") and other styles. Any Dancing Is Good - except disco dancing of course :grin:

Andy McGregor
28th-March-2005, 12:38 AM
Is this a stupid question? If you stop line dancing in lines is it still "line dancing"?

Lynn
28th-March-2005, 04:01 AM
Is this a stupid question? If you stop line dancing in lines is it still "line dancing"? That was what confused me. I'll admit I thought line dancing was about 'grapevine to the left' sort of dancing in rows, at least that's what has been my admittedly limited experience. I didn't think of it as partner lead-follow style dancing. So if a room of people were all in pairs doing that, it wouldn't have seemed to be line dancing to me! Can anyone tell me how much of line dancing is this style? Eg at a typical line dancing social evening is some of it done in lines and some partner?

djtrev
28th-March-2005, 10:05 AM
The only time I have seen partner dancing at a line dance social evening is on some tracks you can either do it in line or as a double.In which case the line is in the centre of the floor and the doubles go round the outside.
My wife and young son enjoy line dancing and occasionally I will attend a social evening with them,not to dance mind you,but to listen to the music,some of which I enjoy.In fact there are a few tracks that are popular line dance tracks that work well with MJ;four that spring to mind are-DJ Robbie, Last Night, M......ks, D...e the N...t Away, Shania Twain,That Dont Impress Me Much and Scooter Lee,Be Young Be Foolish Be Happy.

Lory
28th-March-2005, 11:41 AM
I did a Google search for 'Definition of Line dancing' and this is what came up

http://xenon.triode.net.au/~dragon/ldance/history.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A669512

ajiver
28th-March-2005, 12:01 PM
I did some LD last year and it's not just dancing in rows. There are LD dances in pairs as well, and some of the moves can definitely be applied in MJ and salsa.
Ajiver

Lynn
28th-March-2005, 12:07 PM
Would line dancing partner dancing then be set routines - ie not freestyle and not lead and follow, but dancing a routine as a pair? (OK this is sounding like country dancing to me as I write this, again based on my very limited experience, and still not resembling what that couple were dancing on SDF!)

DavidY
28th-March-2005, 12:14 PM
I did a Google search for 'Definition of Line dancing' and this is what came up

http://xenon.triode.net.au/~dragon/ldance/history.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A669512I read these and few other websites that I googled for.

The main distinction from MJ seems to be that line dancing and its variants are choreographed and everyone in the room is doing the same steps at the same time. This seems to apply whether folk are dancing in lines or with partners. I assume the partnered version is rather like the "sequence" dances that you see at some ballroom events.

So no "lead and follow". Or have I misunderstood? :blush:

El Salsero Gringo
28th-March-2005, 12:26 PM
So no "lead and follow". Or have I misunderstood? :blush:I'm not sure if you meant it this way, but you should lead and follow the moves just the same,' even if you know *exactly* what's coming next, no?

djtrev
28th-March-2005, 12:59 PM
Quote: DavidY
I assume the partnered version is rather like the "sequence" dances that you see at some ballroom events.

Yes you are right it is exactly that,everyone is doing the same move in a circle.

Quote:El Cid
but you should lead and follow the moves just the same,' even if you know *exactly* what's coming next, no?

Didn't you just know he would make a "mountain out of a molehill" :wink: :wink:

kriss
28th-March-2005, 01:21 PM
To get a better idea of what line dancing really consists of, try these 2 line dance competion sites

www.mastersinline.com

www.ucwdc.com

eastmanjohn
28th-March-2005, 01:37 PM
I haven't seen a full list of dances they will be expected to learn and perform to, but Argentinian Tango and Lindy Hop are two I heard mentioned from the Judges.

Not heard any mention of MJ or Ceroc though :sad:

I think this link shows what the dances will be

http://www.bbc.co.uk/strictlydancefever/learning/dances_index.shtml

Sounds a lot like the list of dances you'd expect in any of the MJ weekenders!!!

Gadget
28th-March-2005, 01:43 PM
The main distinction from MJ seems to be that line dancing and its variants are choreographed and everyone in the room is doing the same steps at the same time. This seems to apply whether folk are dancing in lines or with partners. I assume the partnered version is rather like the "sequence" dances that you see at some ballroom events.
...So, what's the difference between (paired) line dancing and a standard Ceroc class?

El Salsero Gringo
28th-March-2005, 01:56 PM
Didn't you just know he would make a "mountain out of a molehill" :wink: :wink:Natch.

Anyway I've decided to enter for Pedant of the Month - intermediate category - and with the strength of the competition round here I need all the practice I can get.

RobC
28th-March-2005, 02:05 PM
...So, what's the difference between (paired) line dancing and a standard Ceroc class?
Well reading between the lines of what has been said, and the info on sites that have been posted here - (No I haven't got any experience of Line Dancing myself) it would seem that a Line Dancing couple could easily pass as a MJ showcase or cabaret, given that their routines are choreographed. However, the fact that it is choreographed is the major difference - MJ is a freestyle dance.

Gadget
28th-March-2005, 02:38 PM
...it would seem that a Line Dancing couple could easily pass as a MJ showcase or cabaret, given that their routines are choreographed. However, the fact that it is choreographed is the major difference - MJ is a freestyle dance.
No, not the dance; the class - where we all line up and do the same things together.

El Salsero Gringo
28th-March-2005, 03:33 PM
the class - where we all line up and do the same things together.So your recollections of Ceroc classes are clearly vastly different to mine!

bigdjiver
28th-March-2005, 05:37 PM
When I was going to Ealing Franco used to do a progressive class. This weeks 4 moves tacked onto the end of last weeks, and we would get the chance to dance a choreographed routine. In Ceroc Central freestyles the class is periodically a choreographed routine. "Big Spender" is on track that comes to mind.

This amounts to line dance for partners. There could be a marketing opportunity to sell MJ to line dancers on that basis, and also developing the skills pf the MJ community..

Line dance was not for me - I did not like the discipline, have the required memory, or control of my feet. These are, however, attributes that good dancers need. The big plus of Line dancing is that the routine is choreographed, and usually by someone who has some real ability.

I have suggested that someone opening a new venue ran a formation class in parallel with the beginners class. The idea was that this would get the vital experienced dancers along to the venue, and do them, and the venue, the power of good.

It is outside my area of expertise, but I imagine that dancing proper choreography to a set track, or tracks, would help in enabling dancers to work out their own. I would love to do "Fever" or "Moondance", or indeed any track, real justice. I have small snippets of choreography that I can apply to particular tracks, and, generally, partners love it.

Lynn
29th-March-2005, 12:23 AM
It is outside my area of expertise, but I imagine that dancing proper choreography to a set track, or tracks, would help in enabling dancers to work out their own. I would love to do "Fever" or "Moondance", or indeed any track, real justice. I have small snippets of choreography that I can apply to particular tracks, and, generally, partners love it. I had my first taste of trying a choreographed routine at Scarborough (just to the start of 'Perhaps', Amir's class) and really enjoyed it (though I have forgotten most of it now!). For me at least, it was a useful exercise in musicality as well.

bobgadjet
29th-March-2005, 02:47 AM
AFIK You can line dance to a wide range of music, probably anything you can MJ to.

Early American line dances were allegedly a single sex non-partner cowboy around-the-campfire dances. There are other antecedants in Greek, African and Jewish dance, and probably many other cultures.

Is there partner line dance, where all of the "guys" are doing one step, and all of the ladies another? ( :sitting duck: comment ?)
1/ You can line dance to a waltz, but not MJ to a waltz
2/ Line dances started where truckers/treckers and the like, mainly guys, may have been in a bar/ truck stop and music was put on the juke box.
The just wanted to dance and the space was limited. rather than butch guys holding on to their partenrs they danced routines in lines...hence... line dance.
3/ As the routines become more popular the country and western influence moved the line dance routines to the mixed ballrooms/events, and the "partners" were able to take up routines, going round the outside of the floor,with the line dancers on the centre.

I have been to a venue near Springfield Missourri, where in one venue there was a bar about 200 yards long (delightful), there was a buck riding ring at the far end, and in the middle was a fenced dancefloor more like a coral.
The inner dancefloor was for the jivers and line dancers, and there was an outer fence making like a track around the centre floor, that was for partner dancers (when will we see this at Ashtons).
It was crazy, but it worked well.

when will we see this at Ashtons
I started most of my early line dancing at Ashtons about ten-eleven years ago, at that time, mainly to American Country Rock. The floor was so packed, up to 600 dancers, that the partner dancers had to go around the balcony if they wanted some space to dance.
Impressive was an understatement.

Within 6 months of line dancing I started my own club in Watford, which grew to the largest in the area, with classes at 4 venues a week, and socials twice monthly.
The decline came about 3 years ago as the POP music made it's in roads, and the choreography became more complex. too complex IMHO, and that discouraged a lot of newcomers.

I had the BBC come to film on a number of occasions, with interviews etc, but when (IF) it got to the screen, it was once again given the image that became it's downfall.

Due to my involvement with MJ now, I have no time left in my week to keep the club going myself, so have handed the one remaining night over to en ex pupil, and it survives, and may even grow with this new portrayal.

The Gingham & Stetson brigade is still there, but they have their fairly strict guidlines such as ONLY COUNTRY MUSIC.

In my time on the scene, the more modern the music, sometimes the more popular the dance that had been choreographed to it. Some choreographers were not even in their teens, but still managed to make up an interesting routine.

Like a lot of dance forms Line Dancing has it's world competitors, some of whom have also made impacts in both West Coast Swing, and Modern Jive, and have taken the USA at their own disceplines. Well done those guys.

Some of the more compelling tunes used today in MJ have come from dance routines done many times, over 10 years ago. One such track is "Eat At Joes" by Suzi Boguss, that I introduced a few weeks ago at Ashtons, and is now asked for each week. It's also a GREAT Foxtrot, so look out for it on any dancefloor.

Line, MJ, WCS, what the heck, they are ALL enjoyable dance forms, its just that the neg rep LD has had over the past years has never moved it forward. Pity the program never went out sooner.

WHAT AM I SAYING...... Maybe if it had, I wouldn't have got into MJ, and that would have been a disaster. :D

bobgadjet
29th-March-2005, 02:51 AM
there are a few routines used in other dance forms, not labelled as Line dances, but can only be described as routines danced in lines.........

Try telling that to Lindy Hoppers who are dancing a STROLL

They will NEVER accept it as a line dance, but it IS I can assure you of that.

I also noted at a venue LAST SATURDAY, that the Salsa class STARTED with aq routine that can only be akin to line dancing.

It gets evereywhere, and is GREAT training in musicallity, more so if the routine has a "phrased" choreography.

bigdjiver
29th-March-2005, 08:13 AM
... and the choreography became more complex. too complex IMHO, and that discouraged a lot of newcomers...This is what I have been warning against in MJ, the drive towards excellence taking us away from the beginners.

A very interesting post thanks.

ChrisA
29th-March-2005, 08:46 AM
This is what I have been warning against in MJ, the drive towards excellence taking us away from the beginners.

This is another example of the way you take some random example of something going on in some other organisation, and use it in your campaign against improving standards in MJ.

Any drive towards excellence that excluded beginners would be foolish, but it's the exclusion of beginners that would be foolish, not the drive towards excellence.

No one is suggesting that we take the beginners classes and make them more difficult or inaccessible in any way.

No one is suggesting that we remove the beginners classes and replace them with advanced classes.

And I'm sure everyone realises that without fostering beginners, making them welcome, meeting their needs, the dance is doomed.

I don't understand why anyone thinks that there's any conflict here. :confused:

MartinHarper
29th-March-2005, 09:12 AM
Try telling that to Lindy Hoppers who are dancing a STROLL
They will NEVER accept it as a line dance...

Actually they will: I'm not the only one who calls the Shim Sham the Lindy Line Dance (http://www.jitterbuzz.com/less7.html).
(but otherwise, nice post)

Gadget
29th-March-2005, 10:10 AM
This is another example of the way you take some random example of something going on in some other organisation, and use it in your campaign against improving standards in MJ.
Eh? :confused:
I assume that Line Dancing is just the one class, rather than beginners & the rest. As such, making the routines harder would to some extent isolate and exclude beginners. (IMHO)

I think that the point BigDJiver was making is that to extend the 'intermediate' classes to become more 'advanced' would put more distance between beginners stepping up to 'intermediate' and have the same sort of effect as above.
Hopefully not, because by that time they would be hooked :wink:, but I can see that it's a valid argument and nothing to do with any capaign against improving standards.

ChrisA
29th-March-2005, 10:21 AM
Eh? :confused:
I assume that Line Dancing is just the one class, rather than beginners & the rest. As such, making the routines harder would to some extent isolate and exclude beginners. (IMHO)

Exactly. MJ nights usually have two classes, however, one of which is for beginners. So citing a difficulty with a Line Dance event as a potential problem for MJ is completely irrelevant. If someone was proposing abolishing the beginners class in favour of one class that was too hard for beginners, then he'd have a point, but no one is, so he doesn't.



I think that the point BigDJiver was making is that to extend the 'intermediate' classes to become more 'advanced' would put more distance between beginners stepping up to 'intermediate' and have the same sort of effect as above.

Well I don't think there's much of a proposal for this either. In point of fact, you'll find that different venues have intermediate classes of different average difficulty - some are not much harder than beginners classes, while others are much harder.

This gives people the opportunity to find a venue that suits them, and move up elsewhere when and if they feel like it.

ChrisA
29th-March-2005, 10:26 AM
to extend the 'intermediate' classes to become more 'advanced' would put more distance between beginners stepping up to 'intermediate' and have the same sort of effect as above.

Hopefully not, because by that time they would be hooked
I think this is so - by the time someone has invested the time and effort in becoming a proficient beginner, able to do all the beginner stuff and dance it nicely in freestyle, it's very unlikely that they'd be put off by an intermediate class that was hard.

In any case, the improvers classes that more and more venues seem to be offering bridges the gap, so IMO it's a complete non-argument.

In fact, I think the danger of keeping intermediate classes too easy is far greater. The challenge evaporates, the good dancers go elswhere, or don't do the class, and the venue gets stuck in a rut of mediocrity.

bobgadjet
29th-March-2005, 10:40 AM
Eh? :confused:
I assume that Line Dancing is just the one class, rather than beginners & the rest. As such, making the routines harder would to some extent isolate and exclude beginners. (IMHO)


Not any LD venues where I've been......most classes start with AT LEAST one beginners dance, plus a more challenging one.
It's not really a posative move to try to teach morfe than 3 choreographys in one night anyway, and the routines have to be repeated for at least 3 weeks to have a good response on the d'floor.
In most cases, as I have seen on many a MJ floor also, beginners are helped by the more accomplished dancers.
This also has a very welcoming effect for beginners.

With regard to MJ only, there are some venues that have less challenging improvers classes, and as mentioned, one would probably choose the venue that most suits the dancers requirements in lesson difficulty, but, as a lot of you will have noticed, ALL venues have the dancers that turn up around 9.30, so they DON'T have to dance with beginners.....or learners.

Maybe they think they are SO good, they don't need any more lessons ? :innocent:

Are there ANY venues that are brave enough to charge a smaller fee, say £3, for entry before 8pm, maybe £5 for entry between 8 & 9pm, then the full fee after 9pm ?

This would give beginners an incentive to return for a cheaper entry & lesson, and get people thru the door earlier and improve the atmosphere that is OH SO drab at the beginning of most nights.

Maybe an offer should be made to experienced dancers, such that if they enter before 8pm and TAKE PART in the lesson, and actually dance with less accomplished dancers, they get maybe £2 off, or a free drink at the bar :what:

Returning to the thread, I did just this on a number of occasions, and it paid off, but only for a short term.

Got to be worth a try in MJ also I would have thought.

David Bailey
29th-March-2005, 11:10 AM
I also noted at a venue LAST SATURDAY, that the Salsa class STARTED with aq routine that can only be akin to line dancing.
Salsa places have been doing this as warmup and cooldown routines for years. However, I agree, they seem to have got much more choreographed in the past few years, with proper named moves and everything ("Bow Tie", "Susie Q", don't ask me what they mean :)), all called out by the leader.
There's a place in Winchmore Hill (North London) that has a whole, long routine as a warm-up, I think the routine last a good 90 seconds or so (long time in dancing!), so you only repeat it once in the track. I'd call that line-dancing. (Hmmm, is La Rueda classed as line dancing?)

El Salsero Gringo
29th-March-2005, 11:59 AM
Salsa places have been doing this as warmup and cooldown routines for years. However, I agree, they seem to have got much more choreographed in the past few years, with proper named moves and everything ("Bow Tie", "Susie Q", don't ask me what they mean :)), all called out by the leader.
There's a place in Winchmore Hill (North London) that has a whole, long routine as a warm-up, I think the routine last a good 90 seconds or so (long time in dancing!), so you only repeat it once in the track. I'd call that line-dancing. (Hmmm, is La Rueda classed as line dancing?)I always thought it was a deliberate attempt to make beginners and people new to the venue feel small, stupid and uncoordinated, since only the in-crowd and regulars know the steps. The painful memory of how dumb they feel at the beginning and end of every salsa class is what persuades new people to come back week after week for more punishment.

Unfortunately Ceroc doesn't do that, which is why we have Ceroc classes of hundreds instead of the nice cosy six or seven at your average Salsa class. Perhaps with the new Ceroc Essentials warm-up we're going to correct this fault...

(And before anyone argues, yes, actually a lot of new people *do* have trouble stepping side to side on the beat.)

David Bailey
29th-March-2005, 12:20 PM
I always thought it was a deliberate attempt to make beginners and people new to the venue feel small, stupid and uncoordinated, since only the in-crowd and regulars know the steps. The painful memory of how dumb they feel at the beginning and end of every salsa class is what persuades new people to come back week after week for more punishment.
:yeah: That must be it - although for some reason I never went to the class again. Surely you're not suggeting that salsa is elitist??? :eek: Everyone knows it's a much nicer and friendlier scene than those nasty elitist competitive arrogant MJ-ers...

spindr
29th-March-2005, 01:13 PM
I always thought it was a deliberate attempt to make beginners and people new to the venue feel small, stupid and uncoordinated, since only the in-crowd and regulars know the steps.

Couple of reasons why it works well -- any (exercise) instructor worth their salt should make sure that their students have a guided opportunity to warm up -- this is how salsa teachers tend to do it, not quite sure how MJ teachers do it tho' :)

The steps are often called -- but the teachers also demo from the stage, so you can simply follow their feet. The steps are used in Salsa shines and as improvised footwork with say cross-body moves. Oh and it teaches you how to do spins -- every week.

Better teachers also teach body isolations during the warmups.

If people arrive late -- they only miss the warmup -- but at their own risk.

SpinDr.

bigdjiver
29th-March-2005, 03:40 PM
This is another example of the way you take some random example of something going on in some other organisation, and use it in your campaign against improving standards in MJ.Standard :- a specification against which others should be judged.

If you raise the standard you make it more difficult for beginners to reach it.


Any drive towards excellence that excluded beginners would be foolish, but it's the exclusion of beginners that would be foolish, not the drive towards excellence. If you raise the standard you will exclude some beginners.


No one is suggesting that we take the beginners classes and make them more difficult or inaccessible in any way.You just did, I guess, without intending to. By all means raise the ceiling, but do not raise the floor, and make it clear that, for most, the ceiling is just there to admire, not a place to be.


And I'm sure everyone realises that without fostering beginners, making them welcome, meeting their needs, the dance is doomed. :yeah:

I am all in favour of dancers and the dance getting better. However, it is so easy, with all the best of intentions, for the dancers to get better at the expense of the dance.

From BobGadjets description of the fate of linedance it sounds like Ashtons was the Hipster equivalent, a meeting place for the brightest and the best. If they were at Ashtons they were not back where they came from, leading and inspiring the beginners. The branches flourish, but the roots wither.

The Ceroc model of teaching the basics on class nights, extending abilities on workshops, and arranging freestyle nights at widespread locations for the more adventurous to meet and practise and extend themselves is probably the right model for sustained growth and a long life for the dance.

The elite migrating to special venues on a permanent basis may damage the overall growth of MJ. In a competitive environment it is probably an inevitable process.

Clive Long
29th-March-2005, 04:01 PM
<< snip >>
If you raise the standard you make it more difficult for beginners to reach it.
If you raise the standard you will exclude some beginners.
<< snip >>

In what way?
A good counter-argument is made by a certain bigdjiver ....


By all means raise the ceiling, but do not raise the floor, and make it clear that, for most, the ceiling is just there to admire, not a place to be.
<< snip >>

and


I am all in favour of dancers and the dance getting better. However, it is so easy, with all the best of intentions, for the dancers to get better at the expense of the dance.

I don't see the connection at all. Please explain a little more



<< snip >>
The elite migrating to special venues on a permanent basis may damage the overall growth of MJ. In a competitive environment it is probably an inevitable process.
If I go to my local ice rink I don't expect to see competitive skaters on the ice at the same time as me - nor too partner them. Their absence does not diminish my enjoyment and I can see them compete and still aspire to what they do if I am prepared to make the sacrifices.

Clive

mick
29th-March-2005, 04:12 PM
I did line dancing a couple of times and really enjoyed it. The problem I foud was where I went didnt really cater for beginners so I spent most of the time totally out of my depth.

ChrisA
29th-March-2005, 04:49 PM
If you raise the standard you make it more difficult for beginners to reach it.

But no one is suggesting making the beginners class more difficult. Why do you keep fighting against a suggestion no one is making?

How on earth does it make anything at all more difficult for beginners to raise the standard of, for example, of competitions? Or advanced classes? Or even intermediate classes, given that there is increasing provision for improvers as well as beginners and intermediates.

If anything, the provision is getting better at the beginner end of the spectrum, not worse.



If you raise the standard you will exclude some beginners.

Tosh - see above.



By all means raise the ceiling, but do not raise the floor, and make it clear that, for most, the ceiling is just there to admire, not a place to be.

It's not any different from this anywhere, AFAIK. Again, I don't think anyone disagrees with this. No one is forcing people to learn advanced techniques when they don't want to. In fact people seem to agree that more damage is done by people going to more advanced things before they're ready.



If they were at Ashtons {the brightest and the best} were not back where they came from, leading and inspiring the beginners. The branches flourish, but the roots wither.

This bears no resemblance to any reality I've encountered in my MJ time.

The brightest and the best go to the more advanced venues as well as, not instead of, the others.


I really think you're creating an issue where none exists.

bigdjiver
29th-March-2005, 06:53 PM
But no one is suggesting making the beginners class more difficult. Why do you keep fighting against a suggestion no one is making? It was you that used the words "raising the standard", and "the standard" is defined as something against others will be judged. Your use of words, and your thinking is lax.


If anything, the provision is getting better at the beginner end of the spectrum, not worse.You keep mis-representing what I am saying. Where have I said that the provision for beginners is getting "worse"?

What I am trying to say is that it is very difficult to tell what is "better" and what is "worse" for the long term health of the dance, and those of us who want the dance to expand and persist had better learn the lessons of all of those dances that boomed and bust.

In Ceroc Central we now have simple footwork exercises at the beginning of the class. Being naturally inept with my feet I would have found that an instant extra deterrent when I started dancing. It would not be that it was in any way difficult footwork (though I still find myself out-of-phase on occasion), but, for me, the memories of struggling with ballroom footwork.

I would like to see the before and after stats for that change. I suspect that they would show a significant (statistically) small decline in second time returners. The dancing gets better, the dance grows more slowly.

Perhaps we stop clapping enthusiastically in the beginners class, because we have forgotten how hard we found it. Perhaps that makes a difference.The standard is higher, the scene declines. Perhaps most of us come in special shoes, and specially bought clothes. The standard improves, the beginners feel more isolated. Perhaps more of us talk about our last weekender, or our next 50 mile trip to dance. The beginners see a bigger mountain to climb. Most of us are looking up, we do not see down.

David Bailey
29th-March-2005, 07:02 PM
Couple of reasons why it works well -- any (exercise) instructor worth their salt should make sure that their students have a guided opportunity to warm up -- this is how salsa teachers tend to do it, not quite sure how MJ teachers do it tho' :)

Better teachers also teach body isolations during the warmups.

Sorry, but no. :sad:
Yes, that all makes sense in abstract. And when I started learning, the teacher did indeed do a stretch session, and a simple warmup - great idea, no problem with that gets you warmed up, used to moving to music, solid concept. I believe (ESG shpuld know) that the Monday Finchley sessions also have a warmup for beginners.

However, in most salsa places I've been to recently, this has degenerated into a "show off the moves" session, which no beginner could hope to understand. I'm rusty, but I've been salsa-ing a while, and I couldn't follow more than 50% of this stuff, beginners wouldn't have a hope.


The steps are used in Salsa shines and as improvised footwork with say cross-body moves
Sure, and they may well be helpful in those situations - but possibly not something a beginner will be needing to know?



The steps are often called -- but the teachers also demo from the stage, so you can simply follow their feet.
Again, the "stage" at most salsa venues I've been to, assuming there is one, is less than ideal for beginners standing at the back(*), who are trying to see some intricate footwork performed at the front, in a dark room, whilst simultaneously trying to hear Spanish-named move descriptions, in a room with less-than-ideal acoustics (where's that darned tongue-in-cheek icon again.... :wink: )

* They always stand at the back

bigdjiver
29th-March-2005, 07:23 PM
[QUOTE=Gadget]I think that the point BigDJiver was making is that to extend the 'intermediate' classes to become more 'advanced' would put more distance between beginners stepping up to 'intermediate' and have the same sort of effect as above. [QUOTE]I am in favour of the intermediate class being pitched at a level to suit the paticipants, their "level of proximal development" as a teacher might say. Provided it is 45 mins tuition aimed at someone who has not done that 45 minutes before I do not have any objections to what is taught. If the teacher spends only 7 minutes on a new move, and 23 minutes on new style tips then I would think that would benefit everybody in the class.
If it ever got to the stage where if you were not there last week you cannot do this weeks lesson, then that would be too advanced in my book. It is only when we start making the wrong assumption in an intermediate that "they all know that" that we would start raising barriers to beginners.

Ballroom queen
1st-April-2005, 02:00 PM
Well reading between the lines of what has been said, and the info on sites that have been posted here - (No I haven't got any experience of Line Dancing myself) it would seem that a Line Dancing couple could easily pass as a MJ showcase or cabaret, given that their routines are choreographed. However, the fact that it is choreographed is the major difference - MJ is a freestyle dance.


Oh come on, how many COMPETITIVE MJ dancers are truely freestyling in competitions??? (SDF is a competition)
I've seen them practice routines, and even danced with some (obsessive) competitive MJ'ers who get upset when you can't follow some weird routine because its not led properly coz its part of some fancy routine they've made up or been taught.
MJ may be a freestyle dance, in freestyle nights on the social dance floor, but we can't compare that to what people will be doing on SDF!!!

Ballroom queen
1st-April-2005, 02:04 PM
[QUOTE=bobgadjet]The inner dancefloor was for the jivers and line dancers, and there was an outer fence making like a track around the centre floor, that was for partner dancers (when will we see this at Ashtons).
It was crazy, but it worked well.

when will we see this at Ashtons

Please can we make sure that at Ashtons (strictly no sequins) the Jivers are in the CENTRE and the ballroom dancers go round the outside!!!!

Please don't make us foxtrot in an inner ring!!! :tears:

Gadget
1st-April-2005, 02:28 PM
.....

TheTramp
1st-April-2005, 02:44 PM
Oh come on, how many COMPETITIVE MJ dancers are truely freestyling in competitions???
I know at least one.

That was usually because I didn't meet up with my partner until the day before (or possibly the day of) the competition though :whistle:

ChrisA
1st-April-2005, 02:51 PM
Oh come on, how many COMPETITIVE MJ dancers are truely freestyling in competitions??? (SDF is a competition)
Er, most of them, in the freestyle competitions, I would say, in the UK at any rate.

Not in the showcase, obviously - that is a choreographed routine competition. But in the freestyle comps, most people freestyle. There is a tendency for some people that do showcases as well to reuse some of their showcase moves in the freestyle if they're also competing in that category - and I think in some cases it can get a bit predictable and dull as a consequence. But other than that I think you'll find freestyle competitors are very much freestyling.

At the more advanced levels, musical interpretation is judged more and more, and if anyone dances a prepared routine to music that it doesn't fit, they should get marked down IMHO.


I've seen them practice routines,
Routines as opposed to moves? For the freestyle comps? Are you sure?



and even danced with some (obsessive) competitive MJ'ers who get upset when you can't follow some weird routine because its not led properly coz its part of some fancy routine they've made up or been taught.

Where have you found this? I know quite a lot of people that compete and I can't imagine any of them would try to do chunks of their showcases with anyone except their showcase partner.

Actually on reflection, I can think of one competing couple that do a lot of drops and things completely off the break on which you'd normally expect such a thing, so maybe they are just doing something largely pre-prepared. I do agree that it looks crap when it doesn't respect the music. :rolleyes:

David Franklin
1st-April-2005, 03:37 PM
But in the freestyle comps, most people freestyle. There is a tendency for some people that do showcases as well to reuse some of their showcase moves in the freestyle if they're also competing in that category - and I think in some cases it can get a bit predictable and dull as a consequence. But other than that I think you'll find freestyle competitors are very much freestyling.Large agreement - couple of thoughts:

A lot of music has similar phrasing - there is nearly always a grouping into counts of 8 (or 16/32). So it's often surprisingly easy to dance parts of a choregraphed routine to another piece of music. I don't think there's a particular intent to reuse the choreography - it's just that it's so practiced that using it is almost the default option unless there's a reason not to. (Generally that reason comes up fairly often - musicality, or floorcraft issues - but I certainly see small segments of showcases crop up from time to time). As far as I'm concerned - if there's still lead and follow and the option to move into/out of the choreography - then it's still freestyle, though possibly not the purest kind.

In the categories that allow lifts, one of the hardest things is to have clean entries and exits - in particular, it is very difficult to use lead and follow when your arms are occupied holding your partner in the air! Undoubtably the most visually appealing way of handling this is to work out an "entry move" that flows cleanly into the lift, and an "exit move" the lift flows into. But when you do that, no question about it, that's a choreographed sequence. (Any changes in position during the lift more-or-less have to be choreographed too). I see this a lot, but I think it's entirely reasonable within the restraints of a competition - although I've never been keen on that approach personally because I don't trust myself not to do the "entry move" by accident!

Going back to the "choreographed Line Dancing v.s. freestyle MJ" question - I think one thing Strictly Dance Fever has really bought home to me is how much the normal MJ class really isn't about dancing for spectators. We do very well at having enjoyable dances with lots of different partners, but there is very little training about making the movements look good. I can think of very few MJ dancers who would look good as solo dancers. A choreographed routine lends itself much more to worrying about how things look, so I would assume the whole emphasis is very different with Line Dancing.

Ballroom queen
2nd-April-2005, 12:13 PM
Large agreement - couple of thoughts:

As far as I'm concerned - if there's still lead and follow and the option to move into/out of the choreography - then it's still freestyle, though possibly not the purest kind.



I agree, and this is probably the same as the "choreography" that many MJ'ers perceive ballroom to be.

As for "who and Where" I may have been dancing with competitors / watched people practice etc, I can't possibly comment! But it happens. Not all the time, not even often, but it does happen.

As David said, MJ most of the time is about DOING not WATCHING, and enjoying your dance with your partner.

"Dance like nobody's watching..."

bigdjiver
2nd-April-2005, 01:07 PM
... Are there ANY venues that are brave enough to charge a smaller fee, say £3, for entry before 8pm, maybe £5 for entry between 8 & 9pm, then the full fee after 9pm ?

This would give beginners an incentive to return for a cheaper entry & lesson, and get people thru the door earlier and improve the atmosphere that is OH SO drab at the beginning of most nights...If the beginners class is attracting a lot of extra ladies I try and turn up early. If the numbers are more even I usually arrive for the last 15 minutes of the beginner class.

I am not sure that the sparse, drab atmosphere at the beginning of the night does not actually work best for first-timers. It seems to me very intimidating to walk into a class of 100 people all perceived of as better than you. It softens the blow if they trickle in.


I have noticed that first timers that arrive to a room full are more likely to "just watch", and then more likely not to return.

spindr
2nd-April-2005, 05:34 PM
Q: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

A: Yep -- and they dance to trendier music!

SpinDr.

P.S. Anyone seen the new "Kings of Leon" video? :)
P.P.S. Any DJs playing it for MJ?

Gadget
2nd-April-2005, 08:20 PM
If the beginners class is attracting a lot of extra ladies I try and turn up early. If the numbers are more even I usually arrive for the last 15 minutes of the beginner class.
Ooooh, can I have your crystal ball? What's the lottery numbers going to be? {:wink:}

Clive Long
2nd-April-2005, 08:43 PM
Q: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

A: Yep -- and they dance to trendier music!

SpinDr.
<< snip >>
Sounds to me you have a DJ problem where you dance. Tell him / her the music being played is pish. You'll probably get dismissed with sneering disdain .... :wink:

Clive

David Bailey
2nd-April-2005, 09:52 PM
I am not sure that the sparse, drab atmosphere at the beginning of the night does not actually work best for first-timers. It seems to me very intimidating to walk into a class of 100 people all perceived of as better than you. It softens the blow if they trickle in.
Hmmm, I'd have thought the opposite - a big empty room seems more intimidating to me than a big room full of other beginners, all looking as nervous and miserable as me* ... I guess this is very much subjective though; it'd be nice to hear any other opinions?

* For a certain value of miserable.

bigdjiver
3rd-April-2005, 12:46 AM
Maybe it is just my perception, but I would rather make a fool of myself in front of ten people, than in front of 100. I would find it easier to start to build a relationship with a few people I kept getting paired with than with 50 that I mostly only met once.

It is too small a sample to be significant, but it seems to me that latecomers are more likely to join a small class than a big one. It is also true that if there are fewer there there are less likely to be anybody sitting out. Newbies then have to choose between sitting out alone, or trying to hide in the herd.

Come to think of it, newbies are very visible if they are sitting out alone, and I, and others, will usually try to persuade them to join the class.

spindr
3rd-April-2005, 01:35 AM
Q: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

A: Yep -- and they dance to trendier music!

SpinDr.

P.S. Anyone seen the new "Kings of Leon" video?
P.P.S. Any DJs playing it for MJ?Sounds to me you have a DJ problem where you dance. Tell him / her the music being played is pish. You'll probably get dismissed with sneering disdain .... :wink:

Clive
Sorry -- too enigmatic -- the new Kings of Leon video is basically a whole line dance. And KoL must be trendy if they're supporting U2.

SpinDr.

David Bailey
3rd-April-2005, 06:39 PM
Maybe it is just my perception, but I would rather make a fool of myself in front of ten people, than in front of 100. I would find it easier to start to build a relationship with a few people I kept getting paired with than with 50 that I mostly only met once.
It's funny, but I have totally the opposite view - I'd think "100 people? Great, I can lose myself in anonymity". Or I'd think "Only 10 people? Oh God, they'll see every mistake I make."
It's just so subjective...

bigdjiver
3rd-April-2005, 08:29 PM
It's funny, but I have totally the opposite view - I'd think "100 people? Great, I can lose myself in anonymity". Or I'd think "Only 10 people? Oh God, they'll see every mistake I make."
It's just so subjective...The the 100 people remark seemed good tripping off the fingers, but the actuality is, in general, that everybody is absorbed with their partners, and you usually only make a fool of yourself in front of them. They are whisked away, seldom to return in a big class, but soon back in a small one.

stewart38
5th-April-2005, 01:09 PM
This is another example of the way you take some random example of something going on in some other organisation, and use it in your campaign against improving standards in MJ.

Any drive towards excellence that excluded beginners would be foolish, but it's the exclusion of beginners that would be foolish, not the drive towards excellence.

No one is suggesting that we take the beginners classes and make them more difficult or inaccessible in any way.

No one is suggesting that we remove the beginners classes and replace them with advanced classes.

And I'm sure everyone realises that without fostering beginners, making them welcome, meeting their needs, the dance is doomed.

I don't understand why anyone thinks that there's any conflict here. :confused:

Interesting thread

I did line dancing for 2 yrs shortly after I started Jive about 10yrs ago but at that time seem 95% women and it put me off a bit ?

However beginners classes in ceroc are becoming far harder then they were (foot work ,spins, style, 5 moves etc) so it will be interesting to see what happens.

TheTramp
5th-April-2005, 01:43 PM
I did line dancing for 2 yrs shortly after I started Jive about 10yrs ago but at that time seem 95% women and it put me off a bit ?
95% women. And that put you off?!? :rolleyes:

Gus
5th-April-2005, 01:47 PM
However beginners classes in ceroc are becoming far harder then they were (foot work ,spins, style, 5 moves etc) so it will be interesting to see what happens.5 moves??? I thought the idea was to make things simpler and more accessible. Is this correct? If so it erodes one of the main competitive advatages Ceroc has.

TheTramp
5th-April-2005, 02:14 PM
5 moves???
Occasionally. It should be noted however, that where there are 5 moves, this includes the 'in and out'. Which isn't really a move.

jezza
6th-April-2005, 11:26 AM
Q: Does Line Dancing kick MJ Butt?

A: Yep -- and they dance to trendier music!



Just because its trendier, doesn`t mean its beter. Could be trendy and a
load of rubbish.

Ballroom queen
6th-April-2005, 01:41 PM
Just because its trendier, doesn`t mean its beter. Could be trendy and a
load of rubbish.


I agree, and just coz its considered un-trendy - ie ballroom and latin dancing - it could be absolutely FAB - oh yes, it is, nosequins on a Tuesday :rofl:

stewart38
6th-April-2005, 02:11 PM
Occasionally. It should be noted however, that where there are 5 moves, this includes the 'in and out'. Which isn't really a move.


Not always and if your knew the 'in and out' is another move but hey going of thread

MartinHarper
6th-April-2005, 02:46 PM
Beginners can always ignore style tips and guy spins if they want to, so that's just a matter of good presentation.

HEADLINERS
7th-April-2005, 01:43 PM
Hi my name is Yvonne Dunn and I am the owner of Headliners, Upton, Wirral.
I am Jodie’s coach and the choreographer of Jodie & Danny’s Breathe routine on SDF and also the coach of James & Claire and until recently trained Eddie for over 2 years.
I am also a UCWDC certified world championship judge.

I just wanted to help people understand modern linedancing as there seems to be
some misunderstanding. Competitive C&W dancing includes couples and
linedancing. Linedancing involves classic division (pre-set dances performed
In lines) and showcase division (pre-released music freedom of choreography and not performed in lines).

The couples section comprises 8 dances triple two step, polka, night club, cha, two step, waltz, east coast (like jive) and west coast swing (as performed by current DIV II world
Champions James & Claire) PS Claire is a spinning diva but this speed
would not be possible without the exception connection that James provides. The lead/connection is subtle but there for any expect to see and it was nice to see Brendan recognising this in his interview. I think it is important for couples experienced judges to be on a programme that is going to rely on couples driven categories.

As you can see you need to be very diverse as it incorporates all styles of dance and
Jodie & Danny’s routine was part showcase line and part night club two step).
Modern C&W dance rules now allow 50% of non country music although Breathe is
actually a C&W song performed by Faith Hill who is a modern country artist like Shania Twain etc. The C&W competitive scene is made up of mainly under 18’s and is actually a very cool thing to do for those in the know and at top level requires very diverse skills which is why Jodie/Danny & James/Claire should do really well across the different styles.

Please do not confuse social linedance with competitive as it is like comparing Torvill & Dean’s icedances to what you see at your local ice rink on a Saturday!

PS Both SDF couples will be attending our event in Blackpool 24th –26th June 2005 (see www.headliners.or.uk) for more info so why not come along and see some of the worlds top C&W dancers compete.

Hope this helps.


:nice:

bobgadjet
7th-April-2005, 01:52 PM
Hi my name is Yvonne Dunn and I am the owner of Headliners, Upton, Wirral.
I am Jodie’s coach and the choreographer of Jodie & Danny’s Breathe routine on SDF and also the coach of James & Claire and until recently trained Eddie for over 2 years.
I am also a UCWDC certified world championship judge.

I just wanted to help people understand modern linedancing as there seems to be
some misunderstanding. Competitive C&W dancing includes couples and
linedancing. Linedancing involves classic division (pre-set dances performed
In lines) and showcase division (pre-released music freedom of choreography and not performed in lines).

The couples section comprises 8 dances triple two step, polka, night club, cha, two step, waltz, east coast (like jive) and west coast swing (as performed by current DIV II world
Champions James & Claire) PS Claire is a spinning diva but this speed
would not be possible without the exception connection that James provides. The lead/connection is subtle but there for any expect to see and it was nice to see Brendan recognising this in his interview. I think it is important for couples experienced judges to be on a programme that is going to rely on couples driven categories.

As you can see you need to be very diverse as it incorporates all styles of dance and
Jodie & Danny’s routine was part showcase line and part night club two step).
Modern C&W dance rules now allow 50% of non country music although Breathe is
actually a C&W song performed by Faith Hill who is a modern country artist like Shania Twain etc. The C&W competitive scene is made up of mainly under 18’s and is actually a very cool thing to do for those in the know and at top level requires very diverse skills which is why Jodie/Danny & James/Claire should do really well across the different styles.

Please do not confuse social linedance with competitive as it is like comparing Torvill & Dean’s icedances to what you see at your local ice rink on a Saturday!

PS Both SDF couples will be attending our event in Blackpool 24th –26th June 2005 (see www.headliners.or.uk) for more info so why not come along and see some of the worlds top C&W dancers compete.

Hope this helps.


:nice:

With regards to the thread........ That's a YES then :wink: :worthy: