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Gus
21st-March-2005, 07:57 PM
Doomed to Fail?

So … after a relatively short life Cool Catz is closing. It was designed to bring something new to the existing MJ public in the North West …. An opportunity to learn how to dance than how to do ‘just’ moves, a chance to experience new music, it was challenge to the status quo ……. And this week it holds its final event. :(

Maybe I’m too close to the project to see why it failed. All the feedback we got was superb. The music was lauded, people found the WCS lessons inspiring, they took on board the techniques and approach from the advanced lessons …… but in the final analysis not enough people kept on coming.

Is there a future for ‘advanced’ clubs? I don’t really know. I look at Jango in London. It’s the best club I’ve ever been to in the midst of the best dancers in the UK …. But even there the numbers are small (but wonderfully proportioned :na: ).

One of the key problems in North West is that the dancing population is ‘less educated’ and possibly doesn’t know what is possible. The hard core of dancers who wanted to improve and enjoyed the new music stood with us … but they are in the vast minority. The MJ clubs continue to churn out move monsters and make for a nice social night out ... but few are inspired or trained to develop as dancers.

So …. Will the North west continue to be a desert barren of dancing excellence (just look at its performance in Champs over the last 4 years) or does it need something different to start a transformation. Either way, Cool Catz opens its door for the last time this Friday at Knutsford …… one final last night of something special …..

Chicklet
21st-March-2005, 08:10 PM
shame :hug:

seriously, do you have any way of telling / finding out if it was the Friday night that was the issue?

I know I can only drag my tired and lazy backside off the couch for something VERY special (and only once a month) of a Friday. :blush:

C :grin:

Gus
21st-March-2005, 08:19 PM
:tears:
seriously, do you have any way of telling / finding out if it was the Friday night that was the issue?We did have Saturday nights ... but the decline was still evident. Our last event was on the same night as a normal Ceroc freestyle ... depsite everyone telling us how wonderfull we were, they still went to a bog-standard MJ night :sick: Being philisophical ... it was case of use us or loose us ... they've now lost us so the punters have themsleves to look to if they suddenly decide they want more advanced music/coaching.

The more I think about it I come to the conclusion that although many people say they want to be better, maybe they dont want to put any effort in to it ..... maybe they've just got used to it being easy ... or maybe Cool Catz was just a cr*p product and people voted with their feet

David Bailey
21st-March-2005, 09:47 PM
Sorry to hear that, old mate. I know you'll have put your heart and soul in it.


Is there a future for ‘advanced’ clubs? I don’t really know. I look at Jango in London. It’s the best club I’ve ever been to in the midst of the best dancers in the UK …. But even there the numbers are small (but wonderfully proportioned :na: ).

Good question. I'd say the problem is that advanced dancers are total tarts, from venue-loyalty point of view (perfect gentlemen / women otherwise of course :whistle: ). They tend to go where they want, when they want, and don't often stay with the same place to such a degree - they're willing to travel, experiment, and try different locations much more than beginners would be - and word-of-mouth seems to be the only effective way of promoting a venue to this particular audience.

So, from a business point of view, they're the floating voters of the dance community, and you can't guarantee numbers on any particular day. Hence most MJ clubs and classes steer clear of this approach - the financial downside of alienating the non-advanced crowd is worse than the upside of attracting some of the advanced crowd. I wish it were otherwise, but I think that advanced venues will be niche, small, and probably financially delicate. I'd love to be proved wrong though!

Yogi_Bear
21st-March-2005, 10:13 PM
I am sorry to hear that. From all I have read Cool Catz sounded like an excellent idea - the Hipsters of the north? - and I was looking forward to paying a visit next month...all the way from Norwich. I hope all the benefits won't be lost and that something equally good will arise to take its place.
:tears:

Andreas
21st-March-2005, 10:31 PM
Sorry to read that, Gus. It is always the hardest job to teach something that is not immediately absorbable by joe block. Perhaps you should give it another try in London, much larger market ;)

Dance Demon
22nd-March-2005, 12:01 AM
Sorry to hear this Gus. It's always difficult trying to get the masses interested in something new. If NW England is anything like Edinburgh, you will always get the hard core of people who come along for the dance more than the social aspect, but as often as not, there aren't enough of them to justify keeping things going.We persevered with Route 66, and are now into our third year, but we have had to tweak thing a bit along the way. We used to have a basic icebreaker class at the beginning of the night, but eventually scrapped it and turned the night into a freestyle, concentrating on the music choice. This has worked in the long run, and our nights are busier now than they have ever been. Maybe if you made Cool Catz a freestyle with different music from the normal MJ nights, perhaps with the occasional blues or WCS class, it might work. Would be a shame to let all your hard work go to waste.

Lynn
22nd-March-2005, 01:34 AM
Sorry to hear that. It sounded like a great idea, and I'm sure you had a core of regulars who loved it.

We don't really have MJ here (I'm sure you all know that by now!) but there has been a thriving salsa scene for years - yet from what I hear, very few seem to want to progress beyond learning more intermediate moves.

I think a lot of people in MJ are happy to stay at a 'competent intermediate' level indefinitely (not a level I feel I have reached yet myself alas! :tears: )

bigdjiver
22nd-March-2005, 04:28 AM
I have been wiped out through a failed business, but have recovered. It can be done. I am not religious, but I watch T.D. Jakes in "The Potters House". The Rev. Jakes has been through many a hard time too. One show he told us how he cried and fretted because he did not get a small church that he wanted. He turned around and said "It would just about fit in that little corner over there." He was preaching in what looked like a baseball stadium, with seats filled everywhere the camera looked, as far as it could see.

In his words: "If you get it, its good. If you don't get it, it's still good." "Its all preparation."

I'd bet you have memories.

I'd bet you would not remember the nights watching TV you could have had instead.

Lounge Lizard
22nd-March-2005, 10:19 AM
Really sorry to hear about the closure, i know how hard you have worked on cool Katz

It is not an area thing, as you say Jango does not get big numbers, at 'The Ritz' (our Twickenham venue) we have Nina Daines, Simon Selmon & Rena (from Andy & Rena) as our regular teachers for blues & musicality.
between them the have won 1 world title and 11 national titles in dance yet we struggle with numbers.
Hipsters (Wednesday's) had Nigel, Viktor, Amir Roger, Franco - the biggest & the best in teachers, orghanisers & DJ's - yet it closed

DavidJames got it about right, if it is a bit off the mainstream you will not get big numbers.

It is so tempting for us to take the MJ route and go for mainstream dancers, our venue has a fantastic floor, easy access, parking, bar etc. but like you we really want to offer that little bit more, and make the blues accepted as a dance form in the same way ML, Lindy, WCS, are. and not an excuse for sleazy UCP moves.

There is interest in this dance style (just look at the other threads on this forum covering UCP, Blues & moves) but whether that interest ever makes our venture popular enough to be a success, or (as is the case at the moment) everyone says how good but go back to their regular MJ venue.

We are aiming to bring in new dancers, but like your Cool Katz the nature of what we teach is a long way from the basic MJ beginners class and developing newbies needs time and experienced dancers in the venue.

Hipsters (Tuesdays) gets good numbers but the average MJ club gets lots more in comparrisom
Hipsters Wednesdays closes
Jango is the best out there it seems, but has low numbers
The Ritz has low numbers at the moment
Cool Katz closes
Bisley WCS closed

Is there the demand for clubs that offer that extra something? - Perhaps not.
Are we trying to take the dancers further than they want to go? wish I knew the answers to this one

Sorry, did not mean to steal your thread Gus, but it does make me wonder if the effort to open a 'special' club is worth it - I personaly think it is cos if we don't try it we will never know if it can be successful.

What would the dancers like (if anything) in a 'special club' that goes that bit beyond the basic MJ model?
and if we provided the ideal model to fit the dancers wants how far or how long would you travell to get there? ANd most immportantly how often would you go there?
Peter

jivecat
22nd-March-2005, 11:28 AM
Is there the demand for clubs that offer that extra something? - Perhaps not.
Are we trying to take the dancers further than they want to go? wish I knew the answers to this one
..............
What would the dancers like (if anything) in a 'special club' that goes that bit beyond the basic MJ model?
and if we provided the ideal model to fit the dancers wants how far or how long would you travell to get there? ANd most immportantly how often would you go there?
Peter

Really sorry to hear that it's closing, Gus, it was good to see something like Cool Cats provided outside London.

In theory I would be prepared to travel up to an hour and a half on special occasions but not on a Friday night. I'm tired & the motorway's busy. Realistically, I don't really go anywhere that takes more than about an hour.

I don't know if this is at all workable, but why not offer advanced lessons at venues which are operating successfully as a general, social venue? Just as the beginners are withdrawn for a top-up lesson, could not some space be found to conduct advanced lessons based on the features that have been discussed in other threads at the same time that the intermediate lesson is going on? Or, if that is not practicable, hold advanced lessons alternately with intermediate lessons, or every fourth week, for example. And inform the punters that this is what will happen and what the content of the lessons will be. Or hold a short advanced lesson in a separate room at around 9:45 while everyone else is doing freestyle? (This wouldn't require anything extra in terms of teachers/money/space.) Beginners/intermediates could be shortened to 3 moves only to make time for it.

I gather that in New Zealand there is some arrangement whereby advanced lessons happen during ordinary weeknights. Can anyone tell me more?

I think it's important that everyone knows that progress doesn't stop after you reach intermediate level. Move monsters assume that is all they need to know and nobody really informs them otherwise. There might even be some macho, competitive desire to attend advanced classes which might open up a whole new world for some, though I've always been an advocate of moving up a level only when previous skills have been mastered.

Sorry, I'm sure all these things must have been mentioned on previous threads, I just started thinking about it again.

Chef
22nd-March-2005, 11:46 AM
I am extremely sorry to hear this Gus. I wished this venture all the best (even though it was from afar) from the very start.

Specialist venues will attract those people that have been dancing for quite a while and want something that is different from what they have been getting most nights of the week for all those dancing years.

I would love to be able to get to Jango or Hipsters on a regular basis because they have the teaching, music and other dancers of a level that are a challenge for me to rise to. The problem is that that it is an hour and forty five minutes to get to these venues for me and I get back home at between 2 and 3am (on a work night). Friday nights at Hipsters at least doesn't have the prospect of having to go to work the next day but after a full week of work and other dancing commitments I end up entering the venue feeling utterly exhausted before I even start dancing. If only they could do it on a Saturday night.

Lounge Lizards venue falls just at my outer limit for a specialist dance venue for a workday night (it takes me an hour on the motorway from work and one and a half to get back home) and I will try to get there as often as I can. I travel there because it is a specialist blues venue (the only one I know) but I now see that he wants to be playing more latin style tracks in his evening. This is starting to make the journey marginal for me. I get latin music to dance to everywhere I go and it breaks up the blues mood of the evening as you constantly change between styles. For me, this stops the mood of the dance to sink into my bones.

A lot of dancers want to master other styles or dance to more challenging music and turn up at these new ventures. The trouble is that they find themselves back down at the bottom end of the learning curve and don't like it. As a result they get disheartened. It is much easier for them to go back to their standard MJ event where they can be looked on as "advanced dancers" than to find themselves as smaller fish in a bigger pool. I know when I go to Hipsters I have that feeling of "Oh gosh, they are all so good here". :eek:

I wish I knew the answer to your problem. If I did I would keep it to myself, open a venue and make lots of money :whistle: . I get bored very quickly if I feel I am not improving at something. I dread the feeling fo being stuck on a dancing "platuea" which is why I go to a great deal of effort to get to venues, like yours, that have a Unique Selling Point.

The failure of your venture, where you tried to bring top quality teaching and music to dancers, will be a sad day for dancers in your area. I just fear that it will take them a few years to realise that.

Best wishes in your future ventures.

Happy Dancing.

DianaS
22nd-March-2005, 12:10 PM
I'm so glad we came last Friday, it was a great night and not spoilt by knowing it would be almost the last. We thought it was the beginning for us and had already decided we would be coming back for more :yum: Let us know what your next exploit is Gus it was good to meet you. :cheers:

David Bailey
22nd-March-2005, 12:19 PM
it does make me wonder if the effort to open a 'special' club is worth it - I personaly think it is cos if we don't try it we will never know if it can be successful.
From a purely business point of view, I don't think so :sad: It almost has to be more precarious than a standard venue; you're appealing to a smaller audience, who are less local, and who probably can't make it there every week. As you say, even for renowned venues like Hipsters, with superb style teaching, the numbers are lower than a standard class. Of course, you could charge more - but then probably even less people would come. I suspect the only viable option for advanced classes is to keep the venues small - less overhead, less risk. But small dance venues in good locations are difficult to find.
However, I'd like to say that I for one appreciate the effort other organisers (and Gus of course) are putting into trying to raise the game for some venues - as a dancer, it's great to know that there are advanced sessions I can go to. But short of someone from the "mainstream" organisations officially marketing and promoting these advanced venues as a natural next step, I suspect they'll stay niche...
[/QUOTE]

Andy McGregor
22nd-March-2005, 01:08 PM
Three cheers for Gus :cheers: :cheers: :cheers:

Gus, I'm really sorry to hear that you're closing. It was courageous of you to start this venue and it takes an even braver man to close something that is his dream :clap:

I'm certain that it won't be long before you're back with something new to impress us all :flower:

Gadget
22nd-March-2005, 01:33 PM
Real sad to see it fold Gus :(

I think that people do want to learn, and are willing to put in some effort, but that effort & focus is generally on weekenders and specific specialist workshops. A regular night is less of an 'event' to get psyched up for.

I like the idea of a night with 'more challenging' music. Would it work if you had an 'informal' type of workshop an hour before hand for dedicated people, then open the doors to the general populous?
Less preperation, more a sort of "I thought we would look at X this week - any comments?" and wing the rest of it.

Trousers
22nd-March-2005, 01:43 PM
You intimated you were on the verge of closing when DianaS, Northants Girly and I dropped in at Knutsford.
I think it sucks when the independents get pushed to the wall. You guys bring more to the scene than someone trying to make a buck or two and I for one will miss your input. But like Andy Mc says roll on the next venture 'cos it's bound to be another cracker.
Respect!

bigdjiver
22nd-March-2005, 01:51 PM
... Of course, you could charge more - but then probably even less people would come...People were / are coming long distances to get to these specialist, "something extra", venues. The effective price they are / were paying is far above the admission. An extra £2, £3, or £5 would deter very few from "trying it once" but could make the vital difference to the organiser. If Gus has the stats, I suggest that he go back through them and see how many people came just the once (no reflection on the venue) and do the simple math - that many * £(guess).
Then think what might have happened if he had spent that extra money on even more promotion.
Even a crude business model on a spreadsheet can give a good feel for a business, and the results can be surprisingly accurate. I tried to convince the two computer companies I was dependent on to change their policy based on my business models. One's reaction was "It's all guesswork." Even more depressingly the others was "What's a spreadsheet?". They both went out of business, to the month, just as I predicted. Alas, I had preceded them.

It is "All preparation".

If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.

Gus
22nd-March-2005, 01:54 PM
Some thought provoking posts. Also, many thanks for all the support and best wishes :flower:

few quick thoughts of my own...


I'm certain that it won't be long before you're back with something new to impress us all :flower:Not likely! :( To be honest the experience with loosing my main club has put me off organising for life ... TOO much hassle.


But short of someone from the "mainstream" organisations officially marketing and promoting these advanced venues as a natural next step, I suspect they'll stay niche...We did try to work with the Big Boys but they were only interested in their market share etc .... think they thought we were as a threat where as we were only too keen to promote other clubs. I always thought it would be a symbiotic relationship. How naive...


Sorry, did not mean to steal your thread Gus, but it does make me wonder if the effort to open a 'special' club is worth it - I personally think it is cos if we don't try it we will never know if it can be successful.Well put (liked the rest of your post as well). at the end I didn’t just set up CC out of altruistic motives. It was there to satisfy a need in me to teach at a higher level and bring music to the masses that isn’t heard outside London (excluding Scotland of course). Teaching at that level helped me to become a better teacher (I hope) in the same way that dancing in competitions makes you a better dancer.


Maybe if you made Cool Catz a freestyle with different music from the normal MJ nights, perhaps with the occasional blues or WCS class, it might work. .. actually thats exactly what we were .. TOTALY different to anything on offer ... as was the music. The nearest to our product is Jango .... though the music was probably a bit 'safer' that that of the awesome TWK :worthy:

Trying to put all in context .. it was a great experience for all concerned ... some of our dancers will now challenge their dancing levels and start to take things on on their own. Maybe the music challenges will make people go out and challenge the status quo. Despite all the hardships and heartache I think all the crew had a great time doing it. If it wasn’t for the trouble with Blitz and me now being out of the area ... then we probably would have persevered. I said I wouldn’t do it again ... but I suppose I should never say never. In London we have Jango, which meets many of the needs which I set up CC to address. If Jango ever take the concept of the road, maybe I could be part of that.

If I have one thought that stays with me ... I think its for those who have access to these events but who always think ... "maybe I'll go next week". These clubs need support to survive. There will always be a standard MJ club in your area, advanced clubs are rarer than hens teach .... USE THEM OR LOOSE THEM!!

Minnie M
22nd-March-2005, 02:39 PM
....... the experience with loosing my main club has put me off organising for life ... TOO much hassle.........
:tears:
Please please do not give up Gus, the MJ world needs people like you :worthy: :waycool: to help it move on - it may just be a case of they are not ready for it yet

Hipsters on a Tuesday is for the more confident dancer and it has proved there IS a requirement.

Jango on the other hand is one level up from Hipsters as some of the music is challenging (I think it is fantastic). I would go EVERY week if it was nearer, the word has just to get around, plus IMO Monday is not the best day in the week to go dancing - I certainly hope it picks up.

However it must be difficult to know when to draw that line, I suppose that depends of the financial bit !

Even though it is not my area - I thank you :yeah: for trying and wish you well and please try again in about a year (maybe :D )

Will
22nd-March-2005, 02:52 PM
Firstly let me say that I do have sympathy for Gus. It involves alot of hard work organising events, and to see it stop must be a bit of a hard pill to swallow.

Ironically, Gus' tragedy "UP NORTH" has had major benefits for us. People keep talking about the success of Jango, but the truth is that our numbers have shot up since Gus started coming along. He seems to have a fan base made of both male & female dancers. He certainly seems to bring in the ladies. Is it because he's ditched his trademarkl orange trousers for 1980's stone-washed skin-tight jeans?

And Gus has brought us this success despite the fact that week after week we have a DJ that's looks like he's come straight from paintballing and forgotten to change his clothes :eek:

Andy McGregor
22nd-March-2005, 03:38 PM
week after week we have a DJ that's looks like he's come straight from paintballing and forgotten to change his clothes :eek:
:rofl:

Msfab
22nd-March-2005, 04:08 PM
Ironically, Gus' tragedy "UP NORTH" has had major benefits for us. People keep talking about the success of Jango, but the truth is that our numbers have shot up since Gus started coming along. He seems to have a fan base made of both male & female dancers. He certainly seems to bring in the ladies. Is it because he's ditched his trademarkl orange trousers for 1980's stone-washed skin-tight jeans?

And Gus has brought us this success despite the fact that week after week we have a DJ that's looks like he's come straight from paintballing and forgotten to change his clothes :eek:

I only started at Jango back in January, wish I started sooner :( ! I love the classes, especially with the Tango element! It’s a fabulous venue with the best music! Its the best in London and elsewhere probably!

Don’t knock the DJ's attire! He brings glorious colour into our lives! I miss the shirts!!!

Is there Jango on easter monday (28th march)?

David Bailey
22nd-March-2005, 04:27 PM
Or hold a short advanced lesson in a separate room at around 9:45 while everyone else is doing freestyle?
This is actually happening on Mondays at Finchley, seems to be successful, but we're talking about maybe 20-25 people out of a total 120-150 attendees. So it probably wouldn't really be viable as a separate session.

Divissima
22nd-March-2005, 04:33 PM
Is there Jango on easter monday (28th march)?Absolutely - Jango as normal. Would be lovely to have you back, Msfab :grin:

jivecat
22nd-March-2005, 04:39 PM
This is actually happening on Mondays at Finchley, seems to be successful, but we're talking about maybe 20-25 people out of a total 120-150 attendees. So it probably wouldn't really be viable as a separate session.


Is that because only 20-25 people are interested? Or only 20-25 feel that they are advanced enough? And do they select themselves as being advanced? Or is it the lesson content that's advanced, the pupils being just anyone that turns up?

Are the rest of the people freestyling when the advanced lesson is on? I think that would put people off attending the advanced class because they would be loath to give up freestyling time.

David Bailey
22nd-March-2005, 04:42 PM
To be honest the experience with loosing my main club has put me off organising for life ... TOO much hassle.
Don't give up! Most new businesses fail - and they're always a lot of hassle. Doesn't mean that you shouldn't start up another one - now, at least, you know what you did wrong :)



We did try to work with the Big Boys but they were only interested in their market share etc .... think they thought we were as a threat where as we were only too keen to promote other clubs. I always thought it would be a symbiotic relationship. How naive...

Well, from a position of weakness, you can only get them to help you if you offer a good business reason to do so. Having said that, I do believe an affiliate model could be made to work for this type of thing; given the right incentives both ways, and assuming you're not stepping on someone's toes. For example, a basic attendance discount for Ceroc members and / or payment to Ceroc for each member would probably be interesting. Of course, you need to crunch the numbers to ensure it pays off, but I'd leave that to boring accountant-types :) :)

David Bailey
22nd-March-2005, 04:53 PM
Is that because only 20-25 people are interested? Or only 20-25 feel that they are advanced enough? And do they select themselves as being advanced? Or is it the lesson content that's advanced, the pupils being just anyone that turns up?

Are the rest of the people freestyling when the advanced lesson is on? I think that would put people off attending the advanced class because they would be loath to give up freestyling time.

You need to sign up for the advanced class when you turn up - I think there may be a limit, but Robin could tell you for sure. I also think the organisers try to arrange even numbers - again, ask Robin. The rest do indeed freestyle during the class, and it is indeed painful to give up even 20 minutes of freestyle time, but it's usually worth it I think

El Salsero Gringo
22nd-March-2005, 04:53 PM
Is that because only 20-25 people are interested? Or only 20-25 feel that they are advanced enough? And do they select themselves as being advanced? Or is it the lesson content that's advanced, the pupils being just anyone that turns up?

Are the rest of the people freestyling when the advanced lesson is on? I think that would put people off attending the advanced class because they would be loath to give up freestyling time.
Most of the lessons that David's referred to have recently been in Latin (Cha Cha, Rumba, Samba, etc.) to suit the interest of the teacher, and while they're billed as advanced lessons they're actually very basic in those styles.

I think that the majority of people, having attended a 45 minute intermediate class that many find quite challenging enough want to enjoy their freestyle for the rest of the evening. Perhaps the time for an advanced class is during the beginner's lesson? That would mean two teachers, but it might persuade the better dancers to come earlier?

David Bailey
22nd-March-2005, 04:59 PM
Perhaps the time for an advanced class is during the beginner's lesson? That would mean two teachers, but it might persuade the better dancers to come earlier?
Maybe - certainly that follows the model for a lot of London salsa classes, which are often taught in parallel. Trent Park on Weds even has 4 classes going on in one room at the same time...! But again, you'd have to persuade the organisers that this extra effort is worth it, in terms of generating revenue.

El Salsero Gringo
22nd-March-2005, 05:20 PM
Maybe - certainly that follows the model for a lot of London salsa classes, which are often taught in parallel. Trent Park on Weds even has 4 classes going on in one room at the same time...! But again, you'd have to persuade the organisers that this extra effort is worth it, in terms of generating revenue.This is a bit OT for this thread, but I'd kill for a regular venue with an intermediate class as per normal, but an alternative to the beginners class where perhaps just one harder Ceroc move was disected to death, with taught footwork and styling, and lead-follow. A bit like I've heard Amir does. Something so specialised that beginners wouldn't feel bad about skipping it and doing the beginner's class. And if the class was smaller then each attendee could get a bit more feedback about how their dancing looks. It would cost the organiser the price of an extra teacher, if he could find one skillled and willing to do it, but not much else. It might encourage enough extra good dancers to come along early so that they would join in the intermediate class too and hold up that end of things also.

Lynn
22nd-March-2005, 05:29 PM
A lot of interesting points, I think (I could be wrong) that Gus wasn't just going for having advanced teaching available, but different music as well? Something to stretch dancers a bit? A great idea, I'm really sorry it hasn't worked, but its time may yet come.

Lory
22nd-March-2005, 05:40 PM
As far as I'm concerned, the reason I love Jango so much, is the mere fact it DOESN'T appeal to the masses, bad for business I know, but if the numbers suddenly doubled, it would loose its charm.

I/we go there fully aware the music will be different and challenging and they make no apologies. :waycool: We go prepared to feel slightly in awe but ready to learn. :)

I'm really sorry your venture failed Gus :hug: but I'm wondering, on what grounds you think it failed, purely commercial or just the lack of numbers?

I'd say the vast majority of punters are only happy with familiar music, they want to keep within their comfort zones, they don't want to travel to far, they want it to be cheap (i've heard people moaning that £7 is expensive) and they are totally happy to get to a certain level of competence and maintain that level once a week! And why not? ;)

Aren't they the lucky ones!!!! Wouldn't we all be really happy if we could get our fix like this! There are venue's that cater for the majority virtually everywhere and it's where the money is.

Will
22nd-March-2005, 05:55 PM
Don’t knock the DJ's attire! He brings glorious colour into our lives! I miss the shirts!!!
Has ever a post ever deserved as much negative rep as this???

Toby wan Kenobe
22nd-March-2005, 06:20 PM
Don’t knock the DJ's attire! He brings glorious colour into our lives! I miss the shirts!!! ???

Has ever a post ever deserved as much negative rep as this???
Dude, when in hole, stop digging..... :rofl: :rofl:
TwK

MartinHarper
22nd-March-2005, 07:12 PM
I've always been a little puzzled why folks would want to learn Salsa from a Modern Jive teacher, under the banner of an "advanced modern jive class" or a "latin workshop" or whatever, when they could learn Salsa from a Salsa teacher at a Salsa class.

spindr
22nd-March-2005, 07:17 PM
I've always been a little puzzled why folks would want to learn Salsa from a Modern Jive teacher, under the banner of an "advanced modern jive class" or a "latin workshop" or whatever, when they could learn Salsa from a Salsa teacher at a Salsa class.

:yeah: the last advanced jive workshop I went to was basically half an intermediate salsa class - but without the footwork :devil:

SpinDr.

El Salsero Gringo
22nd-March-2005, 07:20 PM
I've always been a little puzzled why folks would want to learn Salsa from a Modern Jive teacher, under the banner of an "advanced modern jive class" or a "latin workshop" or whatever, when they could learn Salsa from a Salsa teacher at a Salsa class.If you were thinking of my earlier post, I didn't mention Salsa. But it's a good question in principle. Perhaps (and it works, but not terribly well, for the Samba, Rumba and Cha Cha) they might want to know just enough to throw in a few steps of another dance in the middle of an MJ number?

Alternatively maybe they just want to assure themselves that they're not missing out on anything so special that they'd feel the need to spend another night of the week dedicated to it? Who can say?

As an aside, Carol (who runs the 'advanced' classes that David and I were using as an example) does bring an experienced Latin/Ballroom guy - her champion, she calls him - to co-teach with her, and he gives most of the instruction.

Tiggerbabe
22nd-March-2005, 07:39 PM
Perhaps the time for an advanced class is during the beginner's lesson?
This is what Franck has been doing in Perth - it is not an
"advanced" class but a "technical" class. Held whilst the beginners class is going on, which means that everyone can enjoy both the freestyle between beginners and intermediate classes and then the intermediate class itself.

The numbers have been growing each week :clap:

Lorna's teaching this Thursday :D

David Bailey
22nd-March-2005, 09:00 PM
As an aside, Carol (who runs the 'advanced' classes that David and I were using as an example) does bring an experienced Latin/Ballroom guy - her champion, she calls him - to co-teach with her, and he gives most of the instruction.
Milangro (sp?) is indeed national dance champion (Latin, I believe) of Sri Lanka, if that helps... So it's not really taught by an MJ-er. It's lovely to watch him in action, shows up the difference between us plebs and proper dancers :sad:

Carol also did a couple of salsa classes a while back - she's a pretty good salsa dancer, so she knows what she's doing. Hmmm, you're right, it's called advanced class, but it's definitely mutated into a "Latin misc" class, hasn't it? Good thing too :)


I'd kill for a regular venue with an intermediate class as per normal, but an alternative to the beginners class where perhaps just one harder Ceroc move was disected to death, with taught footwork and styling, and lead-follow.
:yeah: :yeah: :yeah: God, yes. OK, so that's 2 people in N London, all we need is 148 more and it's a going concern :sad:

MartinHarper
22nd-March-2005, 09:43 PM
I gather that in New Zealand there is some arrangement whereby advanced lessons happen during ordinary weeknights. Can anyone tell me more?

Gus previously wrote about his experiences in NZ in a defence of advanced classes (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1289).

JonD
22nd-March-2005, 10:05 PM
Gus, I'm sorry to hear Cool Catz didn't work out - it sounded a great idea and just the thing that those of us who are passionate about dance would love. The problem is the size of the "Jiveaholic Market" - it's much smaller than you'd guess from this forum.

In an idle moment I was trying, totally subjectively and unscientifically, to estimate the size of that market in Exeter. I'd define a Jiveaholic as someone who is currently passionate about dancing and learning irrespective of their level of ability. We get about 210 people on a Thursday night in Exeter. There's a Monday class of around 65 so say that's net 230 regular dancers. There are about 12 complete junkies and probably 6 others that are on the slippery slope (and about 6 in rehab who don't turn up much anymore) - around 8% active. It'd be interesting to hear if other areas have similar kinds of numbers.

(I'll declare an interest here: I'm one of Nelson & Karen's coaches).

Monday nights in Exeter used to be core intermediate and advanced classes - no beginner class. Sometimes there were just 4 of us there. On a good night we got 20. Great for us, bad for N & K. This went on for years and I know that Nelson only ran it because he's so passionate about dance and loves teaching people who really want to learn. The Monday format has now changed to beginner, core intermediate and advanced (though it's always been advertised as "advanced intermediate" in order to avoid intimidating people). We get about 65 people with a relatively small percentage of complete beginners and most of the Jiveaholics. There's no coaching, less freestyle and the advanced class alternates each week between moves and themes.

Last night was "moving around the dance floor without bumping into other people", next week it'll be moves. Almost everyone can do the theme lessons but most of the early intermediates avoid the advanced moves classes - they stay and watch. The overall standard has been diluted because people tend to move up to the next class before they are really ready but, hey, I remember that I was out of my depth when I started doing the advanced class too. The atmosphere is very relaxed and the freestyle tends to be used to practice stuff - last night I spent a couple of tracks trying to get one particular lead right and then drove Julie mad by continually trying to lead a travelling double return (double return bit on a single beat) and mucking it up. The music is much more adventurous than the Thursday night - if we do "dancing to fast music" then the music reflects that. The format seems to be working but a significant factor in that was a very adventurous and aggressive pricing policy to get people along in the first place.

N & K enjoy it because they get to teach lead/follow techniques, musicality, tricky moves, awareness and N can try out new tracks or play some of those awful "cod-latin" things that he loves so much! The Jiveaholics enjoy it because most of us are there and we can dance with each other to interesting music and the normal human beings enjoy it because it's a very friendly atmosphere and everyone dances with each other. Even though there is no coaching most of the Jiveaholics dance with everyone - it's a culture N & K encourage.

Maybe that model would work elsewhere. It's not perfect but it does mean that the Jiveaholics can get their fix of more advanced level teaching on a regular basis and, once it's established, it has a chance of being financially viable. I don't like the idea of running advanced classes at the same time as beginners - but I would say that because I'm a coach: I'd prefer the advanced dancers in there helping the beginners. But, if it's a choice of doing that or losing the advanced people then I'd say it was worth trying.

Damn shame Gus - don't give up!

Jon

MartinHarper
22nd-March-2005, 10:16 PM
I don't like the idea of running advanced classes at the same time as beginners - but I would say that because I'm a coach: I'd prefer the advanced dancers in there helping the beginners.

Not a rhetorical question - In a beginner class, what can an advanced dancer offer a beginner than a competent intermediate dancer cannot?

JonD
22nd-March-2005, 10:45 PM
Not a rhetorical question - In a beginner class, what can an advanced dancer offer a beginner than a competent intermediate dancer cannot?

Hmmm, good question! I've just been pondering that over a coffee. Mainly I think it's tips on improving lead/follow. There was a guy in the beginner class last night who was being a bit robust and very mechanical with his lead. He's been coming a while but he's still nervous and tries rather too hard. I watched him for a while (I arrived late) as partners rotated and it wasn't until one of the advanced ladies got to him that anyone said anything about his lead. The lady was able to show him how to make his lead smoother, more progressive and more fluid. I'm not saying he's had an epiphany but he was certainly better in the freestyle.

Another guy was having trouble with the "half-windmill" - changing hands too far to his left so he had to practically leap to his left to get the second turn in. I guess a good intermediate lady could have seen what was going wrong and helped put it right but it was another advanced follower who actually made the suggestion. Maybe that's to do with having the confidence to say something.

Ooops - we may be drifting a bit off topic here!

jivecat
22nd-March-2005, 10:51 PM
Not a rhetorical question - In a beginner class, what can an advanced dancer offer a beginner than a competent intermediate dancer cannot?


Hmm. When I was a beginner then anyone with 3 months experience more than me was an advanced dancer as far as I was concerned. I probably didn't get the chance to dance with anyone who I would now consider "advanced" for a long time. But I remember being confused by some very good dancers and struggling to keep up with them - features such as styling, playing with the music and interesting footwork were completely wasted on me and my following was poor. It's interesting that some of the dancers I really enjoy now because they have those features I occasionally hear being criticised by other dancers for those very reasons - "You never know what he's going to do next." "He's more interested in himself than in his partner." That kind of thing.

In theory, I suppose that as long as a clear lead, count and rhythm are being provided then that is all complete beginners need and they can be provided by competent intermediates. But, but, but....sometimes people need to be shown something to aspire to; sometimes they need the boost in confidence that dancing with a really skilled practitioner can provide; and it's good for the social mix of the MJ scene to feel that there is not an elite who cannot be approached.

Gadget
23rd-March-2005, 01:28 AM
Not a rhetorical question - In a beginner class, what can an advanced dancer offer a beginner than a competent intermediate dancer cannot?
Who is to tell the compident intermediate that they are not "advanced"?

What the good dancers do is show the beginers how it could/should be done and how it could/should look & feel. It gives them a goal, it shows that everyone can learn from the beginner's class. It promotes the friendly "dance with anyone of any ability" atmosphere without forming 'cliques' of advanced dancers...

Personally I would rather an "advanced" or 'workshop' type of thing was run parallel to the intermediate class - I would rather skip it than the beginner's class.

Minnie M
23rd-March-2005, 02:10 AM
Not a rhetorical question - In a beginner class, what can an advanced dancer offer a beginner than a competent intermediate dancer cannot?
Experience :cool:

David Bailey
23rd-March-2005, 08:52 AM
Not a rhetorical question - In a beginner class, what can an advanced dancer offer a beginner than a competent intermediate dancer cannot?
Excellent question. You could even make a case that an intermediate dancer is better for a beginner than an advanced dancer - they may be:
- more likely to be patient
- more likely to remember what it was like as a beginner
- more likely to be aware of the "mechanicals" rather than the style
- less intimidating to the beginner

I'm not saying that's true, just that "great dancer" doesn't equal "great teacher".

David Bailey
23rd-March-2005, 09:06 AM
Who is to tell the compident intermediate that they are not "advanced"?
Raises another question - who is "advanced", what level is it, how do you define it? From my perspective, an "advanced" dancer is someone I feel priviledged to dance with, but that's totally subjective.
Ceroc defines "intermediates" as someone who's done 6 weeks or more. That's complete rubbish in my opinion - I understand the commercial rationale, but I'd say 6 weeks is too soon to move up to most intermediate classes (it took me a few months, however, so maybe I'm just biased / a slow learner :))
My personal opinion, from a leader's point of view:
- Beginner: someone who needs to be very stongly lead, and who is not yet comfortable with dancing.
- Intermediate: someone who is comfortable dancing, but who probably doesn't inject too much style into their own moves, and who makes a few mistakes in a dance.
- Advanced: someone who is a joy to dance with - has their own style, interprets a lead perfectly, offers a challenge for the leader to rise to.

Note: any of these can be fun to dance with, a good leader should adjust his style to the level of the follower, of course.

Hmmm, this was going to be a short post, maybe I should take it to the In Defence Of Advanced Classes thread...

Gadget
23rd-March-2005, 09:51 AM
Raises another question - who is "advanced", what level is it, how do you define it?
Advanced Dancing (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=412)
Definition of "Advanced" couple (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2740)
How do you judge your own ability? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=384)
Whats experience? (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=291)
There are many more - just about every thread that brushes on "advanced" dancing raises the issue.

ChrisA
23rd-March-2005, 09:55 AM
But, but, but....sometimes people need to be shown something to aspire to; sometimes they need the boost in confidence that dancing with a really skilled practitioner can provide; and it's good for the social mix of the MJ scene to feel that there is not an elite who cannot be approached.
...:yeah:

It was this that sustained me through a long (3 years?) plateau during which I nearly gave up completely several times.

Every so often I'd dance with someone that could lift me beyond the rut I existed in, made me believe that somehow I'd be able to improve.

This was pre-Hipsters... people like Nina, Lydia, a few whose names I don't know, and one in particular who suggested I go on a musicality workshop. :eek: :flower: :flower: :flower:

DianaS
23rd-March-2005, 10:01 AM
[QUOTE=Will] He certainly seems to bring in the ladies. QUOTE]
Secrets in his chocolate supply :whistle:

El Salsero Gringo
23rd-March-2005, 10:58 AM
and it's good for the social mix of the MJ scene to feel that there is not an elite who cannot be approached.Then it's a circle that can never be squared:

Advanced evenings don't do fantastically commercially - Jango isn't packed out, and Gus has had to close his. So you put on an advanced class on (I don't care what you call it, you know perfectly well what I mean) on a regular night:

- at the same time as the beginners class: you stop the advanced dancers helping the beginners (actually the people I'd like to see in an advanced class no longer come to beginners lessons)
- at the same time as the intermediates class: the advanced class fills up with the less able who are still struggling with the intermediates class, and those people who would benefit from both can't attend both
- after the intermediate class: eats up too much freestyle time

Besides which, to have any kind of advanced class is to create an 'elite' - however you try to down-play it.
Something, somewhere, has to give!

bigdjiver
23rd-March-2005, 11:51 AM
Somehow dancers become advanced. We may not know exactly how the system works, but it does.

spindr
23rd-March-2005, 11:55 AM
Bisley WCS closed

Rumours of the demise of WCS at Bisley are exagerated -- although admitedly it's not on every week :)

The next Jivebug WCS class at Bisley is on 10th April.

SpinDr.

ChrisA
23rd-March-2005, 12:01 PM
Besides which, to have any kind of advanced class is to create an 'elite' - however you try to down-play it.
... which is a bad thing in what sense?

El Salsero Gringo
23rd-March-2005, 12:09 PM
... which is a bad thing in what sense?
I don't think it's bad. JIvecat was suggesting it might be. Personally I think that 'Elite' already exists, and whether or not the system already works, I'd like to attend some more advanced classes, and if they were run at the venues I already attend I wouldn't object. No shame in that, is there?

TheTramp
23rd-March-2005, 12:10 PM
... which is a bad thing in what sense?
I'm sure that Gadget will be along to answer this for you very soon :na: :clap:

Lory
23rd-March-2005, 12:13 PM
Somehow dancers become advanced. We may not know exactly how the system works, but it does.
This is true but I suspect it's likely to be down to them drawing on previous dance experience/background and pure natural ability.

Being able to 'see and do/copy' without being actively taught!

And so we go round in yet another circle :rolleyes:

Gadget
23rd-March-2005, 12:43 PM
I'm sure that Gadget will be along to answer this for you very soon :na: :clap:
no - been down that road with him too many times: If he still wants to be elitist, then that's fine by me - I'll just stay down here with the plebs and pesants collecting mud.
As long as his elite little clique are not putting off everyone else, upsetting the friendly and open atmosphere, snubbing or degrading themselves to dance with the rest of us mere mortals,... then I'm happy for them to take up that space by the stage.

{:na::wink:}

bigdjiver
23rd-March-2005, 01:06 PM
... which is a bad thing in what sense?At the Orchid ballroom there were no lessons, basically all freestyle. There was a minority who could and would dance, and they mostly shuffled around very amatuerishly. I only ever remember a few very old geezers who could dance, reliving a bit of the good times, and they stayed together. At the few beginners classes I did there was the teacher, and us beginners. I never saw, let alone danced with, an intermediate. The music was still there, the ballrooms were still there, but ballroom dancing was in sad decline. If I had known the likes of the Strictly Come Dancing team I, and many others, might still be doing ballroom today. Somewhere the champions were practicing and performing, but I never saw them.

At Ceroc I see people. who have travelled around the world on the basis of their dancing ability, dancing with beginners on their first night. I fear it is a culture that is eventually doomed by good intentions, but I want to keep it for as long as possible.

Daisy Chain
23rd-March-2005, 01:20 PM
…… but in the final analysis not enough people kept on coming.



...which is why I stopped coming. I had a great time until the numbers dropped off and would have continued to be a regular customer. The early sessions were great with fab music and dancers and I thought you were onto a winner and was very surprised that dancers have been staying away in recent weeks. I guess it didn't help to have Cool Catz on the same nights as ordinary freestyles.


In a similar vein, I went to Blitz Bowden last night for the first time in ages on a Tuesday. Packed with dancers..............but mostly women :tears: There were female wallflowers at least 2 deep around the walls and consequently 100% overworked men who didn't have the energy to keep us all even remotely satisfied. I won't be going there again so Blitz have lost a potentially regular customer. I wonder how many other women left early muttering the same vow?

Daisy

(An Uncool Little Wallflower)

Gus
23rd-March-2005, 01:48 PM
Somehow dancers become advanced. We may not know exactly how the system works, but it does.True ... but the current 'hit and miss' development is extrememly inefficient and many good dancers miss the opportuntity to develop. In area without role models, where there are few 'advanced level' teachers ... what chance do dancers have?

Dancers who have the benefit of the likes of Central Regions depth of teachers, or London dancers who have access to the great independant teachers are you lucky minority. For the rest of the UK, regardless of the standard of some teachers, there is not the environment for them to develop to such an extent. (IMHO)

Re these dancers being an 'elite' ... well I think some would find the term insulting. To use a much over-used example ... turn up to Jango on night, regardless of your standard. I've seen up to 12 nationally rated dancers there ... and not a suggestion of eliteisim. You can have the likes of Will, Kate, DaveB, Lily etc. dancing with people who have limited dance expertise ... and taking time to coach as they do. I see far more 'elitisim' at any Ceroc club than I have seen with these dancing legends!:worthy: :worthy:

Gus
23rd-March-2005, 01:52 PM
In a similar vein, I went to Blitz Bowden last night for the first time in ages on a Tuesday. Packed with dancers..............but mostly women :tears: There were female wallflowers at least 2 deep around the walls and consequently 100% overworked men who didn't have the energy to keep us all even remotely satisfied. I won't be going there again so Blitz have lost a potentially regular customer. I wonder how many other women left early muttering the same vow? Funnily enough, although I lived round the corner, I used to drive across to the Chester club because I loathed the Bowden venue so. The music sucked, the dancefloor was too packed to dance and many of the good dancers ended up standing out lamenting the demise of the club :sad: Of course the management are crying all the way to the bank with the numbers they get :sick:

David Bailey
23rd-March-2005, 04:45 PM
This is true but I suspect it's likely to be down to them drawing on previous dance experience/background
:yeah: Which could be why there's so much interest in the current ballroom / Latin lessons - maybe the people don't want to Cha-cha, they want to improve their MJ by adding cha-cha style?

David Bailey
23rd-March-2005, 04:49 PM
...which is why I stopped coming. I had a great time until the numbers dropped off and would have continued to be a regular customer.
I think there's a critical mass for dance venues - if it gets too small, people hear that it's quiet, and don't go. OTOH, good reputation similarly works to draw people in (Hipsters and Jango in London) - you seem to get both negative and positive feedback cycles, and it's usually word-of-mouth from what I can tell. I only find out about the cool places a year later, so I'm way behind everyone else... :tears:

ChrisA
23rd-March-2005, 05:01 PM
Re these dancers being an 'elite' ... well I think some would find the term insulting. To use a much over-used example ... turn up to Jango on night, regardless of your standard. I've seen up to 12 nationally rated dancers there ... and not a suggestion of eliteisim. You can have the likes of Will, Kate, DaveB, Lily etc. dancing with people who have limited dance expertise ... and taking time to coach as they do. I see far more 'elitisim' at any Ceroc club than I have seen with these dancing legends!:worthy: :worthy:
.... :yeah:

Well said.

I'm completely sick of the way the word 'elite' has all these negative connotations, and mostly the most vocal whingers are the ones that never actually go and find out what the reality is.

Just as school kids that want to succeed academically mark themselves out as different and get labelled and ridiculed as swots, dancers that aren't satisfied with mediocre mark themselves out as different from all the people that are happy to dance for years without caring a damn that they aren't improving, or are just a yanking lead or a random follow. And just like school kids that are labelled, the dancers get labelled as elitist, no matter what the reality of how much they give back to the dance, and to dancers not as accomplished as themselves :mad:

If no one aspired to be a better dancer, a better performer, a better teacher there would be no one for the rest of us to emulate, no one to be entertained by, no one to learn from.


Somehow dancers become advanced. We may not know exactly how the system works, but it does.

I think we do know how the 'system' works - but I don't think it's a system.

It starts with someone that enjoys dancing and wants to improve. So they practise lots, and actively seek out good teaching (workshops, weekenders, advanced classes where they're available). They get better, and dance more with better dancers. And keep practising, and seek out more good teaching...

In other words, they take responsibility for their own development.

Maybe it's simply the situation that nowhere, except possibly London, are there enough people that want advanced classes to make such a thing a commercial success, and the people that do want to become advanced will succeed in doing so anyway - eventually, in the hit/miss way that is the norm without good teaching... :tears:

The point is that people such as Nigel, Nina, Amir, Will, Kate, David, Lily, Gus to name the ones I'm aware of, are seeking to make advanced dancing more accessible, not less.

Those that associate accomplishment with elitism in a purely negative way are just not thinking straight.

And no one is holding a gun to people's heads and making them go to advanced classes if they don't want to, so why are people so antsy about giving people the opportunity to become better dancers if that's what they want to do?

As Gus says, the people at the very top put a lot of effort into helping those that are coming up behind them, and to suggest that they're elitist in any sense other than just wanting to promote excellence is just an insult.

Rhythm King
23rd-March-2005, 05:43 PM
.... :yeah:

Well said.

I'm completely sick of the way the word 'elite' has all these negative connotations, and mostly the most vocal whingers are the ones that never actually go and find out what the reality is.

Just as school kids that want to succeed academically mark themselves out as different and get labelled and ridiculed as swots, dancers that aren't satisfied with mediocre mark themselves out as different from all the people that are happy to dance for years without caring a damn that they aren't improving, or are just a yanking lead or a random follow. And just like school kids that are labelled, the dancers get labelled as elitist, no matter what the reality of how much they give back to the dance, and to dancers not as accomplished as themselves :mad:

If no one aspired to be a better dancer, a better performer, a better teacher there would be no one for the rest of us to emulate, no one to be entertained by, no one to learn from.



I think we do know how the 'system' works - but I don't think it's a system.

It starts with someone that enjoys dancing and wants to improve. So they practise lots, and actively seek out good teaching (workshops, weekenders, advanced classes where they're available). They get better, and dance more with better dancers. And keep practising, and seek out more good teaching...

In other words, they take responsibility for their own development.

Maybe it's simply the situation that nowhere, except possibly London, are there enough people that want advanced classes to make such a thing a commercial success, and the people that do want to become advanced will succeed in doing so anyway - eventually, in the hit/miss way that is the norm without good teaching... :tears:

The point is that people such as Nigel, Nina, Amir, Will, Kate, David, Lily, Gus to name the ones I'm aware of, are seeking to make advanced dancing more accessible, not less.

Those that associate accomplishment with elitism in a purely negative way are just not thinking straight.

And no one is holding a gun to people's heads and making them go to advanced classes if they don't want to, so why are people so antsy about giving people the opportunity to become better dancers if that's what they want to do?

As Gus says, the people at the very top put a lot of effort into helping those that are coming up behind them, and to suggest that they're elitist in any sense other than just wanting to promote excellence is just an insult.
:yeah: and the same for Gus' comments too, on the quality, humility and total lack of cliqueyness demonstrated by the so-called elite. Incidentally, from my background, the true elite were to be respected, admired and aspired to, not villified.

R-K :worthy:

latinlover
23rd-March-2005, 06:08 PM
.... :yeah:

Well said.

I'm completely sick of the way the word 'elite' has all these negative connotations, and mostly the most vocal whingers are the ones that never actually go and find out what the reality is................................................ ..........

As Gus says, the people at the very top put a lot of effort into helping those that are coming up behind them, and to suggest that they're elitist in any sense other than just wanting to promote excellence is just an insult.


:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

can't give you rep Chris - excellent post

........................ :yeah: and what Gus said

Elitism is in the eye of the beholder, it seems to me

bigdjiver
23rd-March-2005, 06:59 PM
My dictionary has Elite - the best of a group. I should be insulted like that. Nobody should be ashamed to aspire to being among the best in a group.

And naturally we want to be led by the best.

And, as sure as night follows day, this perfectly natural tendency leads to, with absolutely no negative connotations, -

Elitism - a recourse to, or advocacy of dominance of a select group.

My posts contained nothing of the elements of refusing to dance with the plebs. (That speration works both ways. I have still sometimes the feeling that X would not want to dance with mere moi, and do not ask.)

When the elite want, quite naturally, to dance with their peers, and they leave Hicksville for the long trip to Hipsteria, they may dance with every local yokel that they meet there, but the fact is that the beginners at Hicksville are deprived of their presence, inspiration and guidance.

It is not behaviour limited to the stars. There is still an Elite in Hicksville, even though in some Hicksville it is someone who can use 8 different moves in freestyle, and usually get them right.

It is not a planned system, it is how it works. People develop, migrate and congregate.

You are all reading insults I have not written. I migrate the other way. I recently went to a venue that is struggling, just as research to find out what they were doing wrong. The answer was - nothing that I could see. I liked the venue, teacher, DJ and crew. They told me that as soon as any newcomer reaches intermediate stage they migrate to other venues with better dancers. I am sure that they are met at those other venues with the same friendly helpful ethos that I have found everywhere throughout modern jive.

I do not know where the ballroom elite danced in my day, I suspect that it was the Hammersmith Palais. At my local venue there was no-one to inspire me, and no-one I found that could help me develop. I discovered Jive, and learned by observation, and, like most of my generation, abandoned ballroom. It is not that the elite are deliberately exclusive, is is just that they can only be in one place at one time, and that is often not their local venue. As it happens there were a couple of top class dancers visiting Hicksville when I was there, dancing with the beginners, and telling them that real dancers do Lindy.

I have no negative feelings about anyone. It is just the way things are.

bigdjiver
23rd-March-2005, 07:16 PM
And while I am at it: System - "a set of connected things or parts that form a whole and work together". In the worlds of Systems Analysis, Operations research and the Theory of Games one becomes familiar with the idea that attempting to make things better in one small corner can make things worse in the bigger picture. It is possible for people to be using all of their efforts with the purest of hearts to make things better, but in fact do the opposite.

Gus
23rd-March-2005, 07:44 PM
It is possible for people to be using all of their efforts with the purest of hearts to make things better, but in fact do the opposite.It is possible ..... but that does not apply here. The development of better dancers in the North can be directly related to the arrival of Viktor and N&N workshops in the North in 1999 to 2001. These workshops had a snowball effect in terms of dancers being inspired and other dancers developing enough to become teachers and thus pass on the word of 'advanced dance'.

I still believe there is a future for advanced clubs. Giving better dancers an environment to experiment, dance to the edge of their limits and be more creative allows these dancers then to take this new experience/confidence out to the masses.

Another way forward is the use of 'advanced lessons' at normal clubs. However, the problem I've seen in these lessons is that the students may not be up to the standard of the lesson. This does bring in the whole debate about vetting who does classes although I have no idea how to make it happen, I believe this needs to take place to make sure that the dancers in a focused class are of an appropriate level. Please note that I'm NOT saying that you have to be advanced to do an advanced lesson ... I think how we defined it is that these lessons were for dancers who want to [i]become[/] advanced ... a small but important difference.

OK ... ramble over :blush:

MartinHarper
23rd-March-2005, 07:51 PM
Maybe the people don't want to Cha-cha, they want to improve their MJ by adding cha-cha style?

Perhaps true. Learning to cha-cha would allow them to add a cha-cha style to their MJ, but I suppose it's hard work - an MJ "Latin workshop" offers a shortcut. I had imagined that the sorts of people who go to "advanced" workshops would be more willing to put the work in, as opposed to seeking the easy option. Perhaps this is one reason why clubs like Cool Catz have difficulties?

El Salsero Gringo
23rd-March-2005, 07:56 PM
It is possible for people to be using all of their efforts with the purest of hearts to make things better, but in fact do the opposite.Someone had better tell this to McGregor.

bigdjiver
23rd-March-2005, 10:16 PM
... The development of better dancers in the North can be directly related to the arrival of Viktor and N&N workshops in the North in 1999 to 2001. These workshops had a snowball effect in terms of dancers being inspired and other dancers developing enough to become teachers and thus pass on the word of 'advanced dance'. :clap: :yeah:
I am all in favour of workshops, or of importing guest teachers, or even just the odd visit from a dance god / godess.


I still believe there is a future for advanced clubs. So do I, and I am sorry that your brave attempt failed.

Giving better dancers an environment to experiment, dance to the edge of their limits and be more creative allows these dancers ... All good stuff


...then to take this new experience/confidence out to the masses. but why? Why not stick with your peer group where you are more comfortable, and can develop further, faster. It is the old "the wealth will trickle down" argument.
In some circumstances it does, in others it gets concentrated, and the poor get poorer. I suspect that Kool Katz was having a great positive effect on the general standard of dancing just because it was not retaining regulars at the hoped for rate. They were going back to their regular venues and passing on what they had learned.


Another way forward is the use of 'advanced lessons' at normal clubs.Or, another way, as seems to happen in my local venues, little bits of more advanced ideas are trickled into the normal classes, or are passed on person to person. We do not get Viktor or Amir, but I think we do get bits of them, and at a pace we can absorb them.

Gary
23rd-March-2005, 10:59 PM
...
Another way forward is the use of 'advanced lessons' at normal clubs. However, the problem I've seen in these lessons is that the students may not be up to the standard of the lesson. This does bring in the whole debate about vetting who does classes although I have no idea how to make it happen, I believe this needs to take place to make sure that the dancers in a focused class are of an appropriate level. Please note that I'm NOT saying that you have to be advanced to do an advanced lesson ... I think how we defined it is that these lessons were for dancers who want to [i]become[/] advanced ... a small but important difference.

...
You might be interested then in what happens here in Sydney?

There are regular "intermediate/advanced" lessons (monthly at most venues, weekly at the "flagship" venue). These are more challenging lessons, taught instead of the intermediate class. Intermediates and more advanced dancers do the class at the same time, but in separate rotations (i.e. there are intermediate lines and intermediate/advanced lines). To be allowed to join the I/A line you need to do a "driving test" with an I/A teacher, who'll give you either a "license", or instructions on what you need to improve.

With some people the "license" system is a real motivator to improve (if nothing else, some people just love collecting badges/certificates), with some people it's a de-motivator. I'm not sure what the proportions are.

They were also running for a while "advanced" lessons, which ran at the same time as the intermediate lesson, in another room. This hasn't happened for a while, partly because it's hard to find three teachers/rooms (beginner progression, intermediate, advanced).

Also, Nicky/Robert have just finished running a six-week "becoming advanced" course of two-hour workshops. The workshops were open to anyone, and were mainly focussed on style and musicality rather than moves and more moves. They were very popular and very successful (there has been very obvious improvement in the dancing of the people who attended).

Gadget
24th-March-2005, 12:42 AM
...Another way forward is the use of 'advanced lessons' at normal clubs. However, the problem I've seen in these lessons is that the students may not be up to the standard of the lesson...
As BidD said - why focus on the one small corner? why not try the blunderbuss approach and add in some 'advanced' stuff to standard 'intermediate' classes - perhaps do one less move, but spend more time on something "special"?

In this way, everyone gets exposure, the best take it in, the next are aware of it even if they can't yet assimilate it and it's over the new intermediate dancers heads. An improvement to the whole populous instead of just an improvement to those who are already good.

ChrisA
24th-March-2005, 01:29 AM
As BidD said - why focus on the one small corner? why not try the blunderbuss approach and add in some 'advanced' stuff to standard 'intermediate' classes - perhaps do one less move, but spend more time on something "special"?

This is a nice idea, but the fact is that many teachers would themselves need considerable training before they could teach the sort of thing that some are fortunate enough to have access to.

The other thing, as Gus has mentioned, there is the issue of the ability of those in the intermediate class. Often, the average is such that many cannot get through a normal intermediate class well enough to be able to lead the routine. Loading on more advanced material would be wrong, and many wouldn't even want it - mostly they want moves, not technique. :tears:

And when there is some material in ordinary classes that hints at a higher level, most of the people ignore it and just dance the moves anyway.

You can make things a little more difficult in the intermediate class, but that is way different from advanced teaching.

Andy McGregor
24th-March-2005, 01:42 AM
Someone had better tell this to McGregor.Hey, I've got a pure heart :wink:

But, to answer the comment. It is unlikely that things will get better by chance. It needs a few people with vision to create an improvement. And those improvements are always brought about by people who are willing to change. But, please remember change is not always better. It might even be worse. But, no change is almost always wrong.

Gadget
24th-March-2005, 01:50 AM
You can make things a little more difficult in the intermediate class, but that is way different from advanced teaching.
I confess, I'm ignorant to "advanced teaching" - I am likening it to a good workshop, but taught from stage: is this accurate?

I agree that this method would make teaching harder (you have to appeal to a wider base without loosing any of your 'core' people) but would the effort to get teachers up to this standard not be worth it? (assuming the teachers want this)

From the teachers I have seen, there is a lot they could and perhaps would like to put into a class, but have to exclude on the grounds of the ability level of the class and time restrictions. Could this not be pushed ever so slightly so some little bits seep out?

spindr
24th-March-2005, 01:57 AM
Hmmm, probably not a popular view -- but isn't it counterproductive to let people attend classes too far above there level -- when the class is advertised as such?

It leaves the teacher with the choice of dropping the level -- and disappointing those who expected the advertised level
OR
teaching the class at the advertised level -- and those that can cope having to struggle to pick up any subtleties due to having to drag those with less learning (n.b. not necessarily potential ability, just a "smaller dance vocabulary"). through the class -- again a disappointment.

SpinDr.

Lory
24th-March-2005, 10:07 AM
I confess, I'm ignorant to "advanced teaching" - I am likening it to a good workshop, but taught from stage: is this accurate?


Nigel approaches his advanced classes with the assumption, that to attend the class, we should already know all the basic moves ... First move, travelling return, etc. therefore, NO time is wasted learning that part. He then concentrates on embellishing the moves, adding variations and styling.

And the class moves at a nice speedy pace. :waycool:

Zuhal
24th-March-2005, 12:34 PM
Gus. A noble attempt. Well done for making the effort. :clap:

Spoilt as I am in London and with a varied work agenda I never know where I will be at 7 pm every night until a few days before.

I have been trying to revisit Jango (to show I am not too awed) but I end up visiting which ever class is most convenient on any particular night.

I do take into account the Teacher and the Venue. I do not care who the Organisation is, whether there is a bar or not or who the other punters are. I go to dance, to improve and to have fun.

Zuhal

David Bailey
24th-March-2005, 01:39 PM
Hmmm, probably not a popular view -- but isn't it counterproductive to let people attend classes too far above there level -- when the class is advertised as such?
Yes, but that depends what you're trying to do. If you're solely trying to make a profit, run a business, etc., then you don't really care how good the dancers are, you just want bums on seats (or the dancing equivalent :))
So, the only reason to promote advanced dancing classes / venues, from a cold-hearted business-oriented viewpoint is if the extra effort and overhead increases your attendee numbers in a significant way, or means that you can generate other revenue from video sales etc.
So, if you want to promote these things (and I do! I do!), you need to make a proper business case. Remember, to the main organisers, it's not the dancing, it's the numbers.
Having said that, good venues and classes do of course attract good numbers - but it may not be clear that advanced classes attract better numbers. In fact, it looks like the opposite :( Hence the workshop route tends to be more common...

bigdjiver
24th-March-2005, 02:08 PM
Perhaps we should not walk and talk in front of our new born babes because they are not at that level yet?

David Franklin
24th-March-2005, 02:18 PM
Perhaps we should not walk and talk in front of our new born babes because they are not at that level yet? :confused: Perhaps we should feed them grown-up food like steak, chips and beer as well?

Franck
24th-March-2005, 03:34 PM
Another way forward is the use of 'advanced lessons' at normal clubs. However, the problem I've seen in these lessons is that the students may not be up to the standard of the lesson. I believe that is the wrong way to look at it. You cannot set a high level and hope to only attract those 'advanced' enough. The only way is to take your regular dancers with you, those that want to improve will go to the workshops / technical classes / advanced classes etc... This is where being a large organisation helps, you can try to raise standards at several regular nights at the same time, and when you do organize a more ambitious week-end or special night, you have a built up base.

In Perth, as a pilot, we have started a weekly technical class, similar to what El Salsero suggested, '40 minutes of technique taught during the Beginners class, with a different theme every week, and so far I'm very pleased with the results. We work hard and learn tough concepts that could not be developed so well in a normal class!
I was worried that losing 20 or so good dancers from the Beginners class would be an issue, but it seems to have helped the Beginners... The only requirement we make is that you must have 6 months of dancing experience prior to joining the Technical class.
By the way, for DavidJames, the recommended level of experience for joining the Intermediate class is now 3 months as the Beginners classes follow a 12 week rotation.

Sorry to hear you closed your night Gus and I totally understand your pain / frustration. Just don't let it get you down. :nice:

David Bailey
24th-March-2005, 05:02 PM
By the way, for DavidJames, the recommended level of experience for joining the Intermediate class is now 3 months as the Beginners classes follow a 12 week rotation.
Thanks for that - I say, things sure have changed since I was a wee snapper :)

Plus, :yeah: for "bring them with you" - after all, advanced dancers have to be developed, they don't just come out of a box. Obviously, the best all-roind model is to have a regular class with lots of regular dancers, and to then keep raising the level of teaching, to keep challenging this group of regulars, whilst still retaining interest for new starters.

I think it's that last bit which is the tricky one :)

David Bailey
24th-March-2005, 05:13 PM
:confused: Perhaps we should feed them grown-up food like steak, chips and beer as well?
Well, continuing tha analogy, we eat grown-up food in front of babies, and we show them how to eat like us (albeit gradually), demonstrating the advanced way of fork-following and knife-leading...

I can see this mutating into a babycare thread real quick now :)

Gus
24th-March-2005, 05:25 PM
You cannot set a high level and hope to only attract those 'advanced' enough. The only way is to take your regular dancers with you, those that want to improve will go to the workshops / technical classes / advanced classes etc... This is where being a large organisation helps, you can try to raise standards at several regular nights at the same time, and when you do organize a more ambitious week-end or special night, you have a built up base.Horses for courses. There are many more segmentations than just 'advanced' and'intermediate'. It depends on your club(s) profile. In the N West we have about 30/40 dancers who could take on board some more challenging concepts. why should they wait until the 'internediates' have caught up? At the same time there are dancers who's dancing is below 'advanced' (and no ... I have no idea how to define that level) but beacuse of thier natural ability or experince in other dancing (say Salsa, line dancing) they are able to develop at an accelerated speed.

I'm not saying this is the only way, but it IS a way forward. Had we not run foul of Blitz and I hadnt emigrated to London maybe we could have proved phe ooint. Its interesting that Blitz's imitation of Cool Catz seems to be folding ..... wonder where they found problems?

David Bailey
25th-March-2005, 07:46 PM
I'm not saying this is the only way, but it IS a way forward. Had we not run foul of Blitz and I hadnt emigrated to London maybe we could have proved phe ooint.
Maybe you still can? After all, you're in London - why not see if people are receptive to a new class? OK, there's a lot of competition, but there's also a lot of demand. I know I've been Devil's Advocate (appropriately enough), but as a consumer of dancing, I'd very much like to see more advanced classes available in London. I don't believe the market is saturated yet, and it sounds like you can pull in the punters. I'm living in hope... :)

Gus
25th-March-2005, 07:59 PM
Maybe you still can? After all, you're in London - why not see if people are receptive to a new class? To be honest I dont see the need. Jango covers all I would cover and provides similar music. I would, at this point at least, perfer to support the likes of Jango and Hipsters.

Anyway .... still need to get my sorry butt out of the house and get to the venue .... last night blues maybe but we intend to go out in style. :o

Gus
24th-August-2006, 06:20 PM
In Perth, as a pilot, we have started a weekly technical class, similar to what El Salsero suggested, '40 minutes of technique taught during the Beginners class, with a different theme every week, and so far I'm very pleased with the results. We work hard and learn tough concepts that could not be developed so well in a normal class!
I was worried that losing 20 or so good dancers from the Beginners class would be an issue, but it seems to have helped the Beginners... The only requirement we make is that you must have 6 months of dancing experience prior to joining the Technical class.Was looking for something else and came across this. I'd fogotten that Ceroc Scotland came up with some real innovations about a year or so ago ... How did they pan out?

Though things have stagnated here to an extent, its been intersting to see that Keith has taken the Cool Catz model (and taken over the old Cool Catz vanue, Knutford :rolleyes: ) and seems to be making a good go of it. Maybe I was wrong in my original assumptions for the demise of CoolCatz at Knutsford. I think where Keith is succeeding is through developing stronger links with surrounding clubs and so able to market more effectively in the area. I'm not sure about numbers or if there has been a big difference on the standard of danicng, but at least it is proving to be economically viable. Maybe the model does work, but it has to be supported by effective marketing.

So, what gives with 'new concepts' in the land of strong women, men in skirts and fine spirits?

El Salsero Gringo
25th-August-2006, 10:09 AM
Though things have stagnated here to an extent, its been intersting to see that Keith has taken the Cool Catz model (and taken over the old Cool Catz vanue, Knutford :rolleyes: )Can I ask, what *is* the Cool Catz model? I'm sure I'd make more sense of this if I knew.

Gus
25th-August-2006, 10:36 AM
Can I ask, what *is* the Cool Catz model? I'm sure I'd make more sense of this if I knew.Probably similar to the Jango model, but without the skillbase of Amir or Kate (:sick: ). We taught two lessons, the first (taught by Chris Taylor) were the basics of WCS as could be understood by Jivers. The second lesson (taught be me) was Modern Jive moves but with the emphasis on different aspects of technique, e.g. tension and compression, using half beats and breaks, shines etc.

The music was designed to back this up by encouraging people to dance and interpret rather than just do moves. NO KYLIE ... but played a lot of Gotan, Latin fusion, nu Swing etc. To give credit where credit was due, the music style was inspired by Peter Phillips who, at that time, was the only DJ I'd heard taking risks. Nice concept but failed to pull in the punters.

El Salsero Gringo
25th-August-2006, 11:17 AM
Probably similar to the Jango model, but without the skillbase of Amir or Kate (:sick: ). We taught two lessons, the first (taught by Chris Taylor) were the basics of WCS as could be understood by Jivers. The second lesson (taught be me) was Modern Jive moves but with the emphasis on different aspects of technique, e.g. tension and compression, using half beats and breaks, shines etc.

The music was designed to back this up by encouraging people to dance and interpret rather than just do moves. NO KYLIE ... but played a lot of Gotan, Latin fusion, nu Swing etc. To give credit where credit was due, the music style was inspired by Peter Phillips who, at that time, was the only DJ I'd heard taking risks. Nice concept but failed to pull in the punters.Ta. Sounds very cerebral, like Jango really.

straycat
25th-August-2006, 11:23 AM
Maybe the model does work, but it has to be supported by effective marketing.


Well - having been to Revolution a couple of times now, it certainly seems to be working. Haven't been able to attend a full weekday evening, so can't really comment on the structure, but as for the results, it seems popular, and we had a great time on both visits. Yes, the music was great, but far more than that, the attitude of the dancers made it for us each time. Generally speaking, the musicality / connection / playfulness of the dancers was the best of any venue I can remember.

More importantly than that, I think, as you say, so much of it's in the marketing. If you don't get that right, it doesn't matter how good your end product is, it won't sell. There's more'n one utterly uninspiring club which does extremely well *cough* Mo'Jive *cough*, 'cos they have the marketing right, and the reverse is all-too-often true. It takes a lot of time and energy to market something like this properly - and Keith and Janey seem to be pretty aware of this, which is a Good Thing(TM)

Best of luck to them. They deserve it.

Gus
25th-August-2006, 11:37 AM
Generally speaking, the musicality / connection / playfulness of the dancers was the best of any venue I can remember.Yup. Although Revolution hasn't been going long enough to develop its 'own dancers' it been very succesful at attracting some of the better dancers who have become bored with the standard clubs, especially with the demise of Bowden. It probably comes back to the age old debate about 'Ceroc'-type clubs only being able to retain dnacers up to a certain lveel, then they have to go elsewhere for their fun. Of course thats not a universal comment, clubs like Ceroc Twyford seem to manage to pull in the 'advanced dancers' (whole thread there :rolleyes: ) but the local Blitz and Ceroc dancers have little to offer dancers who want better quality music and dancers :(

Donna
25th-August-2006, 11:49 AM
Yup. Although Revolution hasn't been going long enough to develop its 'own dancers' it been very succesful at attracting some of the better dancers who have become bored with the standard clubs, especially with the demise of Bowden. It probably comes back to the age old debate about 'Ceroc'-type clubs only being able to retain dnacers up to a certain lveel, then they have to go elsewhere for their fun. Of course thats not a universal comment, clubs like Ceroc Twyford seem to manage to pull in the 'advanced dancers' (whole thread there :rolleyes: ) but the local Blitz and Ceroc dancers have little to offer dancers who want better quality music and dancers :(

It's the same with the club in Wrexham - it makes better money out of the beginners but then the dancers only reach a certain level there and want to continue progressing, so then they move onto Blitz in Chester. I find most of the dancers up here, once reached intermediate level, are looking for somewhere to improve, and those venues that tend to focus more on style and technique are usually more successful.

Keith
28th-August-2006, 11:13 AM
Probably similar to the Jango model, but without the skillbase of Amir or Kate (:sick: ). We taught two lessons, the first (taught by Chris Taylor) were the basics of WCS as could be understood by Jivers. The second lesson (taught be me) was Modern Jive moves but with the emphasis on different aspects of technique, e.g. tension and compression, using half beats and breaks, shines etc.

The music was designed to back this up by encouraging people to dance and interpret rather than just do moves. NO KYLIE ... but played a lot of Gotan, Latin fusion, nu Swing etc. To give credit where credit was due, the music style was inspired by Peter Phillips who, at that time, was the only DJ I'd heard taking risks. Nice concept but failed to pull in the punters.

Hi Gus,
Thank you for your comments, just a couple of quick corrections though, as Revolution Dance has always had its own 'Model'.
1) I didn't realise you had a 'Model', nor that you had Knutsford. What made you give it up? I only came to your Ceroc Classes & a few Cool Cats at Northwich.
2) Our Model is based on change, so we can keep moving on as the dancers requirements and ability changes. To help in this area we have a feedback form we leave on the tables each quarter, besides using my own observations.
3) To start with some of the music we used was very kindly donated by Marc Forster and Jon Brett, although Beccy & Neil are now sourcing all their own & doing a fantastic job at it.
4) Our main emphasis is on a dam good friendly social night with a very approachable team.
5) I hope that with our innovative tunes & friendly approach, besides in depth beginners & unusual intermediate and advanced moves, we can not only retain our beginners, who so far are enjoying themselves immensely & cannot get enough! But also give our experienced dancers what they want.

I started dancing 11 years ago & loved it so much, having had it change my life for the better. I just want to give some of this back & enjoy watching others have great fun, I think this helps, as it eliminates all politics as my only interest is dancers enjoying themselves (Living proof is that I tell & advertise of other venues to all my dancers, even venues on the same night).
:cheers:

Gus
28th-August-2006, 02:19 PM
Hi Gus,
Thank you for your comments, just a couple of quick corrections though, as Revolution Dance has always had its own 'Model'.Always thought it would :). However, looking at what you've stated as yout model, the Cool Catz model was very similar. I'm sure there are differences but Chris and Sue, who I think also crew for you, were key crew at at Cool Catz so I'm sure they can comment better than I on similarities or differences.


I didn't realise you had a 'Model', nor that you had Knutsford. What made you give it up? I only came to your Ceroc Classes & a few Cool Cats at Northwich.Think the fact that you didn't know anything about it speaks volumes about my marketing success (or lack thereof):( Actualy, the Northwich events were all 'Gorgeous Gus Dance' events. All the Knutsford events, of which they were many, were all Cool Catz. Thats where Chris and Victoria were first thrust into the limelight :worthy:

dance cat
31st-August-2006, 09:14 PM
3) To start with some of the music we used was very kindly donated by Marc Forster and Jon Brett, although Beccy & Neil are now sourcing all their own & doing a fantastic job at it.
4) Our main emphasis is on a dam good friendly social night with a very approachable team.
5) I hope that with our innovative tunes & friendly approach, besides in depth beginners & unusual intermediate and advanced moves, we can not only retain our beginners, who so far are enjoying themselves immensely & cannot get enough! But also give our experienced dancers what they want.

I started dancing 11 years ago & loved it so much, having had it change my life for the better. I just want to give some of this back & enjoy watching others have great fun, I think this helps, as it eliminates all politics as my only interest is dancers enjoying themselves (Living proof is that I tell & advertise of other venues to all my dancers, even venues on the same night).
:cheers:
:yeah:

I went for the first time yesterday and had a fabulous time. I can't remember the last time I had such a good night. Your crew are very approachable and the people attending were very welcoming. The music was just what I was looking for and if I hadn't had such an early start in the morning I could have danced all night. Thank you Keith for such an enjoyable dance night!

Keith
2nd-September-2006, 06:56 PM
:yeah:

I went for the first time yesterday and had a fabulous time. I can't remember the last time I had such a good night. Your crew are very approachable and the people attending were very welcoming. The music was just what I was looking for and if I hadn't had such an early start in the morning I could have danced all night. Thank you Keith for such an enjoyable dance night!

Thank you,
We aim & hope to please, but it's great to hear from you.
I hope you can spend more time with us next time too :clap:
Please grab me for a dance as I am hopeless with faces to forum names, I'm bad enough on names!!! :blush:
Thanks again,
Keith

bigdjiver
9th-October-2009, 01:48 AM
"Ou est le Gus?" - Wes (La Palma 2008).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpXf0JGcxvI

Agente Secreto
9th-October-2009, 12:23 PM
"Ou est le Gus?" - Wes (La Palma 2008).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SpXf0JGcxvI

I like the clip but why resurrect this thread when there is an MJ Youtube thread that seems far more approporiate.

bigdjiver
11th-October-2009, 10:16 AM
I like the clip but why resurrect this thread when there is an MJ Youtube thread that seems far more approporiate.Those that will not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Someone has to teach it.

Gadget
11th-October-2009, 10:21 AM
You're saying that Gus's dance doomed the Cool Catz? That's a bit harsh :devil:

Gus
11th-October-2009, 09:32 PM
Those that will not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Someone has to teach it.

Reading this now, after all this time is somewhat amusing. Keith's venture also bit the dust and I think most ventures of a similar ilk have failed to prosper AFAIK. Hopefully one day someone will find the right formula.

Re the dance clip, it's not something that deserves to be on the Forum. Hessle is a lovely club that I have the privilage to teach at ever two months. They also have guest teachers who come on a different basis and do a cabaret. As it was a special night, for personal reasons, we were asked just to do some freestyle to demonstrate some inter moves. Neither Lynsey or I are performance dancers so I would uneasy if the vid was taken as a demo of good dancing.

bigdjiver
11th-October-2009, 11:05 PM
I posted the clip because I found Gus's posts interesting, always wondered what he looked like, and about his dancing style, and what happened to him. If I think something I have the feeling that others might think it too.

In my own amatuerish fashion I am trying to spread the word about Modern Jive, and I was pleased to report on Gus actively doing his bit. :cheers: