PDA

View Full Version : Weak lead, lazy or subtle??



Magic Hans
16th-March-2005, 03:00 PM
Recently, I've found that some of my follows have sometimes been doing moves that I've really not expected [ .... which isn't a problem, in fact, it's quite fun sometimes, with the right follow!]

My initial reaction has been:
"It's me! My lead was not clear enough! I'm getting lazy". [ ... which is entirely credible!! :eek:]

However, on further consideration, I'm now asking myself the question:
"Does a lead have to be big, bold and in CAPITALS!!!? With follows that are responsive enough, that can hear(feel) my quiet leads, isn't it so much nicer??"

... I'm still undecided. My tendency is to like quiet leads when I can get away with this. Of course, this could simply be my excuse to be lazy!! Or to (unconsiously) blame my follow for not "listening" hard enough!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Any thoughts??

Ian

Lynn
16th-March-2005, 03:07 PM
Ever watched David B lead? Very 'quiet'. (In fact it feels a bit like you are silk scarf that he is gently twirling round and you just 'float follow'. Or does that sound daft?!)

Feelingpink
16th-March-2005, 03:33 PM
Ever watched David B lead? Very 'quiet'. (In fact it feels a bit like you are silk scarf that he is gently twirling round and you just 'float follow'. Or does that sound daft?!)

That's a totally appropriate description. It's a subtle lead (although DB would have you think lazy). Or when he leads without touching you at all - you just follow his arm ... either way, a lead lighter than butterfly kisses. (Thinks of pink floaty clouds of butterflies ..... sigh. Bliss).

Lory
16th-March-2005, 03:45 PM
That's a totally appropriate description. It's a subtle lead (although DB would have you think lazy). Or when he leads without touching you at all - you just follow his arm ... either way, a lead lighter than butterfly kisses. (Thinks of pink floaty clouds of butterflies ..... sigh. Bliss).
:yeah: :waycool:

I have to admit though, it takes some tuning into but once tuned in, the feeling is exquisite.

Magic hans, maybe what's happening, is you've now crossed another threshold and made the girls feel comfortable enough and confident enough to be able to add some input of their own into the dance?

If that's the case :worthy:

Dan
16th-March-2005, 03:50 PM
That's a totally appropriate description. It's a subtle lead (although DB would have you think lazy). Or when he leads without touching you at all - you just follow his arm ... either way, a lead lighter than butterfly kisses. (Thinks of pink floaty clouds of butterflies ..... sigh. Bliss).


The man is a legend.

How does the saying go? "Often imitated, never matched or bettered"

Ditto Viktor for his flowy style.

:worthy:

The rest of us watch and weep. Dammit. :sick:
At least we can get better! What can they look forward to heh?! :wink:
.

Northants Girly
16th-March-2005, 04:15 PM
"Does a lead have to be big, bold and in CAPITALS!!!? With follows that are responsive enough, that can hear(feel) my quiet leads, isn't it so much nicer??"

Any thoughts??I think it depends on your follower. Some will be fine with a lighter lead but some of us need a much stronger one.
(don't they DS? ;) )

And then there's some days we like a light lead but other days (when we are feeling lazy :D ) we need a stronger one!

Magic Hans
16th-March-2005, 04:53 PM
I think it depends on your follower. Some will be fine with a lighter lead but some of us need a much stronger one.
(don't they DS? ;) )

And then there's some days we like a light lead but other days (when we are feeling lazy :D ) we need a stronger one!

This is the conclusion that I think I'm beginning to reach. As much as I'm flattered to be compared with someone as acclaimed as DavidB, I strongly suspect that it's a case of adjusting the "volume" (so to speak) of my lead for each follow.

The danger with a "quiet" lead is, of course, losing clarity. Especially if my follow is not quite 100% tuned in!!

[ .... wonders if digital broadcasting will change all that!!! :D ]

Chef
16th-March-2005, 05:23 PM
However, on further consideration, I'm now asking myself the question:
"Does a lead have to be big, bold and in CAPITALS!!!? With follows that are responsive enough, that can hear(feel) my quiet leads, isn't it so much nicer??"

... I'm still undecided. My tendency is to like quiet leads when I can get away with this. Of course, this could simply be my excuse to be lazy!! Or to (unconsiously) blame my follow for not "listening" hard enough!! :eek: :eek: :eek:

Any thoughts??

Ian

I also like quiet leads. My regular partner does as well. When she comes back to me gushing about how good a lead DavidB is it always lets me know how much further I have to travel along this path.

I don't think that you are getting lazy, just better, faster than some of those you lead. This is normal since different people learn at different rates due to many different factors. If you have the opportunity to dance regularly with a very able follower you do tend to do the minimum required to achieve the result and that allows you room to introduce subleties. Your skills as leader and follower will grow together (and faster than most around you). If you are constantly dancing with people who have not yet fully developed their following skills then your lead cannot be as light and you will not be able to introduce and learn further subleties.

Please Keep your lead as light as is required or otherwise followers will never have someone on which to hone their skills.

The short answer is that your lead should be as light as is required to get the job done without it leading to discomfort on the part of you or your partner.

I aspire to having a lead that makes my partner feel like "a silk scarf twirling in the breeze".

You are dancing like painting a picture and the size of the brush will define the level of detail you can include.

Happy Dancing

Gadget
16th-March-2005, 09:39 PM
You are dancing like painting a picture and the size of the brush will define the level of detail you can include.
Hey - that's my line! :rofl::waycool:

MartinHarper
17th-March-2005, 12:15 AM
I think your initial reaction had a lot of truth in it. If my partner does a move other than the one I was intending to lead(barring sabotage, et al) then the lead I gave her was either incorrect, or insufficiently clear for her to follow. So, I try to either make my lead clearer, or else avoid leading that move with that girl.

Different folks learn in different ways, but I do a lot of my learning from the mistakes I make. As such, screwing up isn't an ":eek:" moment for me - I'd be much more concerned if I went a whole dance without doing anything wrong. If you find that you are misleading more often, it may be that you are being more adventurous in your choice of moves, or doing more improvised stuff, or just better at detecting subtle errors in your lead. It's not necessarilly the case that your lead is getting less clear.


Does a lead have to be big, bold and in CAPITALS!!!?

I'm not very fussy about these things. If it works, and it doesn't cause your partner pain, then it's a valid lead. You can have big leads, small leads, small variations in big leads, big variations in small leads, bold leads, italic leads, small caps leads, whatever.
Leads with multiple exclamation marks, however, are right out.

Personally, I think I ought to spend time improving the quality of my lead, rather than spend time changing my lead to be lighter or heavier. If I simply made my lead as light as possible, that would not turn me into DavidB (or whoever). If DavidB started using a heavier lead, that would not turn him into a bad lead.


I think it depends on your follower. Some will be fine with a lighter lead but some of us need a much stronger one.

The dilemma! I know a way out, though, even if I'm not yet capable of doing it. Consider the lead for a Cerocspin: I'm moving my hand left by (eg) 30cm over (eg) one second, and this spins the girl. My hand is moving faster towards the end of the lead, but the average speed is (eg) 30cm/s.

Now, my aim is to keep this average speed of 30cm/s constant across all my partners, no matter how much or how little resistance they give me. This means that if my partner doesn't give me much resistance then she'll experience my lead as light, while if she gives me lots of resistance then she'll experience it as heavy.

The wrong approach is to keep the average force constant, but vary the speed. If I do this, it means that if my partner offers me only a little resistance, then I end up pushing her hand round at 60cm/s, which at best will start her spinning too fast and too early. Meanwhile, with a partner who's offering lots of resistance, I end up not moving her hand at all, and I've not really lead her to do anything.

Ok, so in reality it's not that simple, but at my level of dancing that's quite complicated enough. :)

ChrisA
17th-March-2005, 12:19 AM
Now, my aim is to keep this average speed of 30cm/s constant across all my partners, no matter how much or how little resistance they give me. This means that if my partner doesn't give me much resistance then she'll experience my lead as light, while if she gives me lots of resistance then she'll experience it as heavy.

The wrong approach is to keep the average force constant, but vary the speed. If I do this, it means that if my partner offers me only a little resistance, then I end up pushing her hand round at 60cm/s, which at best will start her spinning too fast and too early. Meanwhile, with a partner who's offering lots of resistance, I end up not moving her hand at all, and I've not really lead her to do anything.

:confused: :confused: :confused: :confused: :confused:



Ok, so in reality it's not that simple
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

ChrisA
17th-March-2005, 12:27 AM
The wrong approach is to keep the average force constant, but vary the speed.
But seriously...

Compensating for followers of different levels isn't about this, IMO. It's about providing the right lead, early enough for them to react to it.

Some girls have an excellent connection, and react very fast. Others don't have such a good connection, but still react very fast.

Some have an excellent connection, but don't react so fast. Others don't have a good connection and also don't react fast.

You have to learn to distinguish between the quality of the connection, and the way they react. Only if you can assess them both accurately can you provide the right lead at the right time.

Gadget
17th-March-2005, 01:00 AM
You have to learn to distinguish between the quality of the connection, and the way they react. Only if you can assess them both accurately can you provide the right lead at the right time.
:confused: I just dance with them.

The connection should be equal - if the ladys touch and response is light, then your lead is light. If she has a bit of tension in her frame, that tension is equaled. There is very little difference in the timing of the lead or the path the lead follows or the variation in force that is required to move it. As long as you get your initial 'base-line' connection right, the rest is almost identical from partner to partner.

As Martin implies, it's about keeping your lead on the right path with the right timing; this may result in 'pulling' more at various bits and 'slowing' in others to smooth it out. (especially with beginners). Biggest test of this (and good way to practice) is during the beginner moves in a class: from the stage, they will be taught as position-moveto-position-moveto-position-... If you can smooth that all out so that the lady is passing through the right position when called from stage, then you've got it.


What I find is that I have to think harder about move variations and moves to do with good followers - there are less "mistakes" to monopolise into new variations.
I would guess that if the lady is going into unexpected variations more often (not just different from what you are trying to lead, but not the 'normal' move the variation is based on either), then you are leading something wrong.
If she is ignoring variations and doing something 'common', then she is not picking up on your signal - you need to make it clearer and/or sooner {that's one of my main faults just now; poor timing & expecting the lady to react instantly :blush:}
The main reason people like DavidB lead so well is that they are not "over-leading": ie they do not need to actually lead a specific move - they just flow the lady from one point to another with subtle guidance and position themselves in the right place at the right time. They do not show the lady the path to follow or take them down it; they let the lady move and just apply a little controll to keep her moving in the right direction. They are in a weightless enviroment while the rest of us have gravity, friction and resistance to battle against. :worthy:

MartinHarper
17th-March-2005, 01:01 AM
It's about providing the right lead, early enough for them to react to it.

There are about a thousand ways I could improve my lead. That's another one.

Bill
18th-March-2005, 04:48 PM
:confused: I just dance with them.

The main reason people like DavidB lead so well is that they are not "over-leading": ie they do not need to actually lead a specific move - they just flow the lady from one point to another with subtle guidance and position themselves in the right place at the right time.



:what: :rolleyes:

But the fact the woman is following suggests that the likes of David are indeed leading - and leading specific moves. Some may be very small movements but they are still examples of lead and follow.

The lead may look lazy but it's not weak - women wil testify that it doesn't feel like a grip but they know exactly what he is trying to do whereas a man with a 'strong' lead may still be unclear and confuse the woman.

Brian from Edinburgh is another dancer who has a very distinctive style and will lead women into all sorts of moves, experiment, adopt a range of styles and women on the whole love the experience and sometimes the challenge but he doesn't grip on and force his partner into the moves. They follow because he has a light but clear lead.

Lory
18th-March-2005, 05:40 PM
The lead may look lazy but it's not weak - women wil testify that it doesn't feel like a grip but they know exactly what he is trying to do whereas a man with a 'strong' lead may still be unclear and confuse the woman.


:yeah:

Another subtle thing that some 'nice' leads do, is guiding the lady to move in a certain direction by gently pushing on her back or arm, it would hardly be noticeable to the onlooker.

Its hard to explain :rolleyes: but one feels very secure and kind of cared for :)

Weird explaination, I know :rolleyes: :blush:

El Salsero Gringo
18th-March-2005, 05:54 PM
Another subtle thing that some 'nice' leads do, is guiding the lady to move in a certain direction by gently pushing on her back or arm, it would hardly be noticeable to the onlooker.I don't think the Zen of leading is taught nearly enough.



"Sensei? where is the Intermediate class to be held tonight?"

"Child, the intermediate class is all around you!"

"But Sensei, why do I not see it?"

"You do not see it, child, For the same reason that the fish do not see the ocean."



"Sensei, what time does the intermediate class begin?"

"Child - it begins as soon as you are ready to learn from it."


(both together) "Ommmmmmm..........."