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Sparkles
15th-March-2005, 03:44 PM
Following a recent conversation I was curious to know whether it truely is possible to perform a selfless good deed?
The trouble seems to be that if you perform a good deed, even one that is detrimental to one's-self, you feel good about the fact you've done it, and so gain in positive feelings and happiness.

If anyone can come up with an example of a selfless good deed or has more to add to these vague thoughts I would be most interested to read it.

S. x :flower:

El Salsero Gringo
15th-March-2005, 04:04 PM
"Greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for a friend."
(John 15:13)

From the BBC News website (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/4224283.stm)

Lory
15th-March-2005, 04:08 PM
Following a recent conversation I was curious to know whether it truely is possible to perform a selfless good deed?
The trouble seems to be that if you perform a good deed, even one that is detrimental to one's-self, you feel good about the fact you've done it, and so gain in positive feelings and happiness.

If anyone can come up with an example of a selfless good deed or has more to add to these vague thoughts I would be most interested to read it.

S. x :flower:I can't thnk of one but then again, what's wrong with feeling good and gaining happiness for doing a good deed for someone? :o

Yliander
15th-March-2005, 04:18 PM
to me selfless good deeds are those things you do for others with out thinking which mean/have a significant impact for them.

Dreadful Scathe
15th-March-2005, 04:23 PM
If anyone can come up with an example of a selfless good deed or has more to add to these vague thoughts I would be most interested to read it.

If people do enough "good deeds" they are unlikely to see them as "good deeds" its just how they choose to live life. All these deeds will be selfless because they would not or could not choose to NOT do the deed. This sort of person may well feel good about life but they probably fail to register the individual deed as anything worthy of pride. Mother Theresa may well be a good example :)

I, like most of us Im sure, am quite often indifferent in this harsh world we live in and cant say my life is one good deed after the other. Im not aware of doing bad deeds very often though :eek:

Sparkles
15th-March-2005, 05:05 PM
I suppose El SG is right, and that the only real selfless good deed can be to give your life that someone else might live; I guess you can't feel good about something if you're dead, but that's a whole different discussion.

On the other hand maybe it can be a selfless good deed if you do something that you think is right and there is no specific beneficiary, and yet, unknown to you, people do benefit because you made the right choice?

Maybe that's what Yilander and DS mean? That if you just live your life without thinking about the consequenses then you will commit selfless good deeds unwittingly and that they will indeed be selfless? But if this is the case then surely you're equally likely to perform harmful deeds without meaning to?

But then again, do humans really go around oblivious to the repercussions their actions have? Admittedly I think we are all guilty of not examining every possible outcome of an action before we perform it, but surely we do try to consider those who are likely to be affected by what we do? Also, in order to 'perform a good deed' it must be a situation in which we look at things and say to ourselves "in this instance the positive aspects of doing *this* will outweigh the negative aspects" - in which case it surely must be a conscious act?

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with feeling good about doing something positive for something else, I'm just asking if that means it is done selflessly...?

Andy McGregor
15th-March-2005, 05:55 PM
I see most good deeds as a transaction. You do something good for someone, you feel good about doing it. Even laying down you life - I'm sure you feel pretty good up to the point where you don't feel anything :tears:

One of the questions I have about doing good deeds it telling people about your good deed. Should you do it?

Dreadful Scathe
15th-March-2005, 06:02 PM
That if you just live your life without thinking about the consequenses then you will commit selfless good deeds unwittingly and that they will indeed be selfless? But if this is the case then surely you're equally likely to perform harmful deeds without meaning to?

No, everyone has some sort of ethical and moral standard they adhere to. In a western society like this one, it would be pretty easy to draw up a list of what makes a "good deed" that everyone can agree on.



But then again, do humans really go around oblivious to the repercussions their actions have?

Probably quite a lot. We may know what the local affect will be but the repurcussions could be so far reaching we cant possibly guess them. Reminds me of the funny story about the U.S. High School teacher who made it a project of the class to send money to africa to buy, and then free, slaves (yes it still happens) - a well meant deed, but she then created a boom in the slavery market and more people suffered as a result. (note this smacks of urban myth but it demonstrates the point)!


Also, in order to 'perform a good deed' it must be a situation in which we look at things and say to ourselves "in this instance the positive aspects of doing *this* will outweigh the negative aspects"

I would disagree that this "must" be the situation. We mostly do what we would consider that right thing to do, usually without considering if its good or not. Even if we do have a period to reflect on the merits of an action we be be completely wrong about what those merits are. Indeed, "good deed" is definied by intention but also by result. i.e. The "liberation" of Iraq is a good deed to some but not to all.



I'm not saying there's anything wrong with feeling good about doing something positive for something else, I'm just asking if that means it is done selflessly...?

I would say that if the only benefit is you feeling good but you need to make some sort of effort for the deed then it would qualify as "selfless". If no effort, hardship or sacrifice is involved (like throwing 10p to a homeless person) then it may still be a good deed, but its not much of a selfless act ;)

Lory
15th-March-2005, 07:04 PM
As wrong as it might be, I think most of us have a tiny set of scales in our heads, which we're constantly using to weight up what's fair and what's not.

None of us mind helping friends out, we probably do it without the even slightest hesitation. It's called being a friend! And one friend might need our help time and time again and if we can help, we will, no problem. ;)

But, if the time comes when YOU need help and you know it's well within their capacity to be able to help you, would you feel aggrieved if they refused? :( You know, if the boot was on the other foot, you'd have helped them again and thought nothing of it!

At the time, your acts were completely selfless but now, in retrospect, do you think you might take them into consideration??? :rolleyes:

Yliander
16th-March-2005, 08:01 AM
...

On the other hand maybe it can be a selfless good deed if you do something that you think is right and there is no specific beneficiary, and yet, unknown to you, people do benefit because you made the right choice?

Maybe that's what Yilander and DS mean? That if you just live your life without thinking about the consequenses then you will commit selfless good deeds unwittingly and that they will indeed be selfless? But if this is the case then surely you're equally likely to perform harmful deeds without meaning to?
not really what I meant - more the living a good life and doing what you think is right for example

I went to Sydney for a weekend - I was going to a big dinner with a bunch of cerocers and invited a friend (who also cerocs) from Perth who had moved back to Sydney about 6 months earlier to come along - invite was just so i could catch up with him in the limited time I had there was no good deed thought involved - but it turned out to be one - as he got along well with the other Sydney dancers and has since emailed me to say thank you so much for the invite as he now has a bunch of new friends and is much happer to rock upto dance events on his own as he knows that there will be friendly faces there.

CJ
16th-March-2005, 12:41 PM
I think the acts carried out on instinct are selfless.

e.g. in an instant, letting someone out into the road in front of you, or crossing the road.
catching someone who is falling and you happen to be there.


Am explaining this badly but what I think I mean is it coming down to premeditation.

Thoughts?

Sparkles
16th-March-2005, 04:45 PM
Instinctive acts that benefit other people seem (IMO) to be a plausible example of selfless good deeds - if you don't think but act purely out of instinct then you can't assess whether it will benefit you or not; I guess you would catch someone who was falling whether they were someone who you thought deserved it or not (but again, that's another topic).

So if there is such a thing as a selfless good deed, does it stop being selfless if the person performing it benefits after the act? So, if you, for example, save someone's life (without really meaning to) and then for doing so you get a huge reward, you name in the papers and awards for bravery etc is the thing you did still selfless?
And, as Andy suggests, is it still selfless if you gain after the event by running around saying to people what a great thing you did?
And is that the same as thinking 'if I save that person I may be rich and famous' as you see them about to die and decide to save them? (I know that this means the act is no longer instinctive)

And another thing - does the fact that the only (it seems) way of doing selfless good deeds is by doing them purely on instinct mean that we are all equally likely to perform them?

(And I know you shouldn't start sentences with 'And' - sorry).

CJ
16th-March-2005, 05:01 PM
(And I know you shouldn't start sentences with 'And' - sorry).

But why did you?

Bangers & Mash
16th-March-2005, 06:22 PM
Following a recent conversation I was curious to know whether it truely is possible to perform a selfless good deed?
The trouble seems to be that if you perform a good deed, even one that is detrimental to one's-self, you feel good about the fact you've done it, and so gain in positive feelings and happiness.

If anyone can come up with an example of a selfless good deed or has more to add to these vague thoughts I would be most interested to read it.

S. x :flower:

2 friends like the same girl. Girl likes one of the friends. The other friend gets them together.

El Salsero Gringo
16th-March-2005, 06:38 PM
I think the acts carried out on instinct are selfless.

e.g. in an instant, letting someone out into the road in front of you, or crossing the road.
catching someone who is falling and you happen to be there.


Am explaining this badly but what I think I mean is it coming down to premeditation.

Thoughts?
If the act is instinctual and without thought, then it can't really be selfless in the manner in which the question is posed.

A 'selfless' act in my opinion is one in which you try to help someone else placing yourself in clear risk of personal danger or disadvantage - in full knowledge of, and in reckless disregard of the same.

Other people can (afterward) suggest you were only doing it for the medals and the glory, but only you know what you really had in mind at the time.

bobgadjet
16th-March-2005, 06:39 PM
If anyone can come up with an example of a selfless good deed or has more to add to these vague thoughts I would be most interested to read it.

S. x :flower:
Now this is interesting ...... (for a change)

IF you do a deed that is to be considered "selfless", then, to you, the doer, it would be a matter of fact deed that you think nothing about, as you would not consider yourself in doing the deed, therefore....... you may not even remember you had carried it out.

Surely it is only considered "selfless" to either the person to which the good deed was focused..... or a person/persons who witnessed it.

In this instance you are asking for examples, and I would expect that you would only get ACTUAL examples from the recipient, or the witness(es) of a deed that might be construed as "selfless".

Would you agree ? (if you could understand what I meant :confused: )

Gadget
16th-March-2005, 11:48 PM
I would say that if there is such a thing as a "selfless act of goodness" (where there is no thought of the consequences), then the converse must also be true: that there is a "selfless act of evil". It is then easier to find examples of the latter which would prove the former.

Acts of Martyrdom or self-sacrifice I would not class as "selfless" because the individual is consciously acting in the interests of either 'the greater good' or how others will remember them.
A parent rescuing a child from pearl I would also argue is a "selfish" act; carrying on the genes. Rescuing someone else's child from pearl would perhaps be "unselfish", but that would depend on individual circumstances.

For a "good deed" to become sub-concious, it must have at one point been concious - and at this stage the act was performed for kudos, karma, praise, or other self-motivated goals. So just because it has passed from being a concious descision to help into an un-concious act, does that negate the origional motivation?


...You know, I'm glad I'm not sitting on high passing judgement on whether souls go to heven or hell: if it were up to me, everyone would remain in purgatory! :rofl:

Lory
17th-March-2005, 12:19 AM
A parent rescuing a child from pearl I would also argue is a "selfish" act; carrying on the genes. Rescuing someone else's child from pearl would perhaps be "unselfish", but that would depend on individual circumstances.


Who's Pearl?

Northants Girly
17th-March-2005, 12:28 AM
Who's Pearl?
Pearls a singer . . . la la la la


sorry!

bobgadjet
17th-March-2005, 01:19 AM
Pearls a singer . . . la la la la


sorry!
:rofl:

:yeah:

:worthy:

Every so often there is a gem, and this was the latest IMHO :cheers:

bobgadjet
17th-March-2005, 01:20 AM
Who's Pearl?
I think it's a north of the wall thing :what:

bobgadjet
17th-March-2005, 01:22 AM
...You know, I'm glad I'm not sitting on high passing judgement on whether souls go to heven or hell: if it were up to me, everyone would remain in purgatory! :rofl:
Is that anywhere near Aberdeen then ? :D

El Salsero Gringo
18th-March-2005, 02:34 PM
Does this Citation for the Victoria Cross (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4360461.stm) count as selfless?

I'd say so.

.

Lynn
18th-March-2005, 03:06 PM
Acts of Martyrdom or self-sacrifice I would not class as "selfless" because the individual is consciously acting in the interests of either 'the greater good' or how others will remember them. Can't agree with that - most people who are killed for their belief don't really help any 'greater good' and few people know about it. Self-sacrifice - someone can give their last meal to another hungry person a stranger - the person who gave up the meal then dies - that isn't for the greater good, it only helps one person. And no-one might remember it and the person they helped might never even know their name. There have been many acts like this in quiet forgotten corners of the world, out of sight in prison camps etc. People who have little, seem more able to give everything away than people who have plenty.

I think a selfless act is when you consider someone elses needs as greater than your own. You don't have to do it without thinking, you can be aware that it will disadvantage you to help that person. You don't do it to make yourself feel better, you do it because someone has needs and you meet those needs. (And not for praise or glory as the person may not even know who has been the one to help them, and no-one else might know either.)

I'm not saying that its wrong to thank or give credit to someone who has done something for someone else - but that's not the same as them seeking reward.

Stuart
19th-March-2005, 03:24 PM
Does this Citation for the Victoria Cross (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4360461.stm) count as selfless?

I'd say so.

.
Absolutely!