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View Full Version : Men, what are you looking for in a dance?



MartinHarper
7th-March-2005, 12:02 AM
Mirroring the equivalent [URL=http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=85]thread for ladies], in a bid to get the women all up the same level of paranoia as us guys...

Men, what are you looking for in a follower?

Clive Long
7th-March-2005, 12:08 AM
Men, what are you looking for in a follower?

"lightness" (that has nothing to do with the ladie's mass)

Responsiveness without anticipation

Some independence of spirit with a desire to dance as a couple

A sense of humour and tolerance (boy will she need it)

CRL

Gary
7th-March-2005, 12:13 AM
My favourite dances are with ladies who are always on balance, light to lead, playing with the music, and smiling a lot.

TheTramp
7th-March-2005, 12:17 AM
Men, what are you looking for in a follower?
Fun..

MartinHarper
7th-March-2005, 12:19 AM
thread for ladies (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=85)
(*cough*)

TheTramp
7th-March-2005, 01:15 AM
Oops. Voted for the first option by mistake. I'm sure I clicked to remove my vote once I'd read that more thoroughly. But obviously not.... :(

CJ
8th-March-2005, 12:30 PM
I can't find the "Smile" option.

:sad:

johnthehappyguy
8th-March-2005, 01:15 PM
:yeah: :yeah: :yeah:

to all of the above.

Also,contact without gripping my hands (or wrist ). :sick:

some eye contact during the dance,

not turning or returning too fast.

johnthehappyguy :nice:

David Bailey
11th-March-2005, 02:06 PM
:yeah: me too.

But if I had to pick one thing, I'd say flexibility. Not physically, so much, as mentally - the ability to follow unusual moves without glaring at me.

Some followers, even some really good dancers, are locked into a certain style / mentality, and seem to resent being asked to move out of that way of thinking. The best dancers, I think, are those who are flexible enough to follow clear leads even when they don't know the move.

(Of course, if I'm doing something wrong, glaring is fine :blush: )

drathzel
11th-March-2005, 02:34 PM
Can i reply since i dance as a man? :grin:

Graham
11th-March-2005, 02:36 PM
Can i reply since i dance as a man? :grin:
No. :mad:

MartinHarper
11th-March-2005, 02:37 PM
Can i reply since i dance as a man? :grin:

Sure. When dancing as a man/lead, what are you looking for in a dance?

drathzel
11th-March-2005, 02:44 PM
No. :mad:
:yum: :devil: :whistle:

drathzel
11th-March-2005, 02:48 PM
Sure. When dancing as a man/lead, what are you looking for in a dance?


I find the most off putting thing is that some people find it very hard to follow a women and try and compensate for this by anticipating the moves or trying to back lead....just dont. If we are going to try and lead, let us do this. I have also found this has helped me when i am dancing as i tended to try and "help"!

What i look for is someone who will follow, smile, enjoy themselves, and add a bit of their style to the dance as apposed to just going through the motions! I am quite happy to be hijacked and let the follower do their own thing (it would be a bit hypocritical of me to do other wise!)

The biggest thing that i want my follow to do is relax! Enjoy it, i am honestly not that bad!!!

:hug:

Graham
11th-March-2005, 03:11 PM
What makes you think that they're only back-leading because you're a woman? I'll give you odds that they do it with everybody. For example, in the beginners class last Tuesday, I must have danced with at least ten women, and every single one was backleading.

stewart38
11th-March-2005, 03:29 PM
I think smile should be up there. I dont smile much (clinical thing) but it can make the difference to a dance

drathzel
11th-March-2005, 06:51 PM
What makes you think that they're only back-leading because you're a woman? I'll give you odds that they do it with everybody. For example, in the beginners class last Tuesday, I must have danced with at least ten women, and every single one was backleading.

I could be the "ar$e i got you" look they give me! But now you have made me think is it just me they dont like! :sad: :confused:

Allez-Cat
11th-March-2005, 07:12 PM
Do "compensating for vague or imprecise leads" and "follow unusual or improvised moves" amount to the same thing, I ask myself!

At my level of (in)expertise I can use all the sympathy and understanding I can get. But I have to say I agree with Mr Tramp: fun sits big with me. Except during 'Fire', when putting on my "smouldering" look. Oh yes.

MartinHarper
11th-March-2005, 07:42 PM
Do "compensating for vague or imprecise leads" and "follow unusual or improvised moves" amount to the same thing, I ask myself!

Almost the opposite, I reckon. For example, consider the first move: traditionally, the boy will lead the girls to come forwards to the boy's right hand side. Suppose instead he leads her straight towards him. A girl who is compensating for a beginner/etc lead will probably go to his right hand side anyway. This compensation will make it harder for her to follow unusual moves (eg, perhaps the guy really did want her to walk straight forwards and run him over: the first move stampede variation).

drathzel
11th-March-2005, 10:24 PM
Almost the opposite, I reckon. For example, consider the first move: traditionally, the boy will lead the girls to come forwards to the boy's right hand side. Suppose instead he leads her straight towards him. A girl who is compensating for a beginner/etc lead will probably go to his right hand side anyway. This compensation will make it harder for her to follow unusual moves (eg, perhaps the guy really did want her to walk straight forwards and run him over: the first move stampede variation).

i agree! I have tried to lead into moves that people dont think as a beginner lead i know, so there fore making it hard to lead. :hug:

Chef
12th-March-2005, 01:46 AM
Almost the opposite, I reckon. For example, consider the first move: traditionally, the boy will lead the girls to come forwards to the boy's right hand side. Suppose instead he leads her straight towards him. A girl who is compensating for a beginner/etc lead will probably go to his right hand side anyway. This compensation will make it harder for her to follow unusual moves (eg, perhaps the guy really did want her to walk straight forwards and run him over: the first move stampede variation).

Getting my partner to come straight at me is exactly what I do. I just get out of her path in a straight line as and when I need to and return to my origional line when I don't need to get out of her way.

This has a number of advantages for both leader and follower

For the follower they can relax knowing that I am going to get them lead them in a known straight line and any spinning will be done on the spot and I will lead them back along that same straight line. We both take the walls of the room as a referance point which means we are both working off a common referance line. This helps make the alignment more precise for all the moves including drops.

It makes life easier for me. I can lead the woman down my left or right hand side with equal ease because the follower does not have a bias towards charging around my right hand side. Because I am really sure about where my partner and I are going to be I can worry less about my partner crashing into tables, chairs or other dancers (except the ones that seem to end up in a different county to the one they started the track in).

With both of us having less mental admin to do concerning hitting other things, people or partners ending up where we expect them to be we can concentrate on the music and the dancing.

Followers that charge around my right hand side no matter what I try just make me dizzy and because I have to spend so much time stopping them from crashing into other things and people I just end up doing simple moves with no regard for musicality. Boring for them and boring for me.

I know there is a school of thought that says "if anything goes wrong it is always the mans fault because he is leading". I just think that the follower also has responsibilites and sometimes, just sometimes, the leader is not responsible if things go wrong.

But if both leader and follower work together to simplify the mental workload then both can concentrate on the music and the dancing. Getting the follower to dance in a slot and getting out of her way is the best way that my partner and I have learnt to do that.

Happy Dancing

bigdjiver
12th-March-2005, 12:06 PM
What makes you think that they're only back-leading because you're a woman? I'll give you odds that they do it with everybody. For example, in the beginners class last Tuesday, I must have danced with at least ten women, and every single one was backleading.When I find a beginner back-leading, or in agony trying to remember the moves I try and take into moves that she has not been taught, with lots of two handed ones. They often tell me "I can't do that one" just after we have done it. Quite often they do not realise what they have just achieved until they get back to their friends and get congratulated on how good they looked. Even then some do not believe. "It was all him".

Perhaps one of the problems is that we have a lot of (superb) lady teachers who are very much in charge, unintentionally mis-leading by example, although the teaching is spot-on.

Andreas
12th-March-2005, 12:47 PM
I nticked all except the first one and the sabotage one. While it may be fun for the girls to sabotage the guy's moves, I consider this very dangerous. Just as much as girls do not want to be hurt during dance, this also accounts for guys. As soon as the guy is fast all those 'sabotage' attempts will cause injuries of some degree. So, no ladies, no sabotage please. Those who have danced with me will know that I give more than enough time to those that I feel can make use of it. :flower:

David Bailey
12th-March-2005, 06:08 PM
I know there is a school of thought that says "if anything goes wrong it is always the mans fault because he is leading". I just think that the follower also has responsibilites and sometimes, just sometimes, the leader is not responsible if things go wrong.

:yeah: Definitely agree - I think that saying is like "the customer is always right"; there's a lot of truth in it, but if the follower genuinely doesn't follow a clear lead, what can you do as a leader?

Having said that, I think it's always polite for a good leader to say "My fault" when something goes wrong, basically it's the leader's job to create a good dance.

ChrisA
12th-March-2005, 06:40 PM
but if the follower genuinely doesn't follow a clear lead, what can you do as a leader?

Make it clearer still?

It's a funny thing, but I used to dance with a lot of people that I didn't think were very good followers. Then for various reasons I started working on my (already pretty good, or so I thought :sick: ) lead.

It was amazing how the following ability of virtually all the girls I danced with got better - and all at the same time :whistle:

cheeks
12th-March-2005, 06:48 PM
Make it clearer still?

It's a funny thing, but I used to dance with a lot of people that I didn't think were very good followers. Then for various reasons I started working on my (already pretty good, or so I thought :sick: ) lead.

It was amazing how the following ability of virtually all the girls I danced with got better - and all at the same time :whistle:



:wink: maybe they were all working on it to! :flower:

Katie
12th-March-2005, 06:53 PM
if the follower genuinely doesn't follow a clear lead, what can you do as a leader?



Try leading the move again?

Sometimes when a follower doesn't follow the intended lead, a variation is created, which perhaps the guy hasn't done before. On many occasions a guy has looked at me with a surprised/chuffed look on his face that he has discovered a new move! That quickly subsides, as the guy then forgets it almost instantly! :rofl:

Lory
12th-March-2005, 07:00 PM
On many occasions a guy has looked at me with a surprised/chuffed look on his face that he has discovered a new move! That quickly subsides, as the guy then forgets it almost instantly! :rofl: :yeah: :rofl:

I've lost count the amount of times I've spent the rest of a dance trying to recreate a 'mistake'! :wink:

MartinHarper
12th-March-2005, 07:02 PM
As soon as the guy is fast all those 'sabotage' attempts will cause injuries of some degree.

You sound like you speak from experience. Could you describe what happened?

Katie
12th-March-2005, 07:18 PM
I've lost count the amount of times I've spent the rest of a dance trying to recreate a 'mistake'! :wink:

Sometimes the guy will stop dancing for a considerable amount of time trying to work out the move we've just done whilst i'm itching to carry on dancing before the song is about to finish! Normally, i'm quite patient but if its a really good song then I try to give a hint of 'lets just dance'... :blush:

Andreas
12th-March-2005, 07:49 PM
You sound like you speak from experience. Could you describe what happened?

Luckily it wasn't me. However, they ran a 'sabotage' workshop at some point in NZ and everybody thought it was great. The result of this was that a couple of guys later on ended up with wrenched shoulders because when they tried to put themselves into a quick turn or spin respectively the girls thought there was enough time to do what they learnt in the workshop, which was pull the hand down and frisk the guy.

This is particularly tempting for the ladies if the guys have some sort of set routines. The guys do these routines for 100 times and just when the girls want to sabotage them a bit they change it ....

I have never had set routines but my former dance partner once jumped out of a move hurting my shoulder because she had become used to two moves that I used to combine frequently and I did not then. The 'why did you change it exactly now' did not really help me. Since then I have started to change things so frequently that there is very little time and point getting used to one particular combination.

David Bailey
13th-March-2005, 06:58 PM
Shoulder injuries seem to be pretty common - I had a problem with mine a few months ago, physio helped a lot. I know people who've had steroid injections and even surgery to repair shoulder injuries. I guess ceroc is just so repetitive, especially for the ladies right arms / shoulders, this sort of thing is bound to happen...

On the plus side, I now know what a shoulder impingement is :)

ChrisA
13th-March-2005, 07:02 PM
Shoulder injuries seem to be pretty common - I had a problem with mine a few months ago, physio helped a lot. I know people who've had steroid injections and even surgery to repair shoulder injuries. I guess ceroc is just so repetitive, especially for the ladies right arms / shoulders, this sort of thing is bound to happen...

I wonder why people for whom experience like this is the norm still enjoy dancing.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

David Bailey
13th-March-2005, 07:14 PM
I wonder why people for whom experience like this is the norm still enjoy dancing.
Insanity can't be ruled out :D

Slightly more seriously, I guess dancing's just addictive - it gives you a high, it's cheap, and it's generally supposed to be good for you. Like any sport, you get injuries - the important thing is to be aware of what's good and bad for your body. That's why I never do lifts and drops, but don't get me started on my back problems...

ChrisA
13th-March-2005, 07:24 PM
Slightly more seriously, I guess dancing's just addictive - it gives you a high, it's cheap, and it's generally supposed to be good for you. Like any sport, you get injuries
I guess you're right. If the injuries are rare enough, and get better quickly enough, not to spoil enough of the experience, people will keep doing it.

I used to do a lot of running on hard surfaces. Gave myself terrible shin splints. Ran through them, made them worse, eventually rested enough to let them get better.

I can't face all that any more... I still run, but shorter distances, and if I get pain, I stop and do something else like swim or resistance training.

It's like that with dance now, for me. I've become extremely averse to pain and discomfort generally on the dance floor, and nowadays I tend to avoid those that cause them.

David Bailey
13th-March-2005, 08:00 PM
Try leading the move again?
Yes, that's how we all learn - but my question was more a general one than for specific moves...



Sometimes when a follower doesn't follow the intended lead, a variation is created, which perhaps the guy hasn't done before.
Excellent point - another way of phrasing that is that the follower has done a different but totally legit variation of that move, from my lead, which I basically didn't know or intend. In that case, it's my fault for not knowing that variation (see, back to "it's always the leader's fault" again :grin: )

David Bailey
13th-March-2005, 08:11 PM
It's like that with dance now, for me. I've become extremely averse to pain and discomfort generally on the dance floor, and nowadays I tend to avoid those that cause them.
:yeah: :yeah: We're both getting too old... :)

So ultimately, I guess what I'm really looking for in a dance is to not be injured by my partner :)

drathzel
13th-March-2005, 08:12 PM
I know talking about injuries is slightly off thread however, i hurt my shoulder on Thursday night, was sore on friday and Saturday but went dancing :D , it wasn't too bad till near the end of the night, then it started to get really really sore and it affected my dancing :tears: and i stopped leading! How ever i find dancing so addictive that i don't think i learnt my lesson! :blush:

David Bailey
13th-March-2005, 09:09 PM
I hurt my shoulder on Thursday night, was sore on friday and Saturday but went dancing :D , it wasn't too bad till near the end of the night, then it started to get really really sore and it affected my dancing :tears:
<bore mode>
I think most ceroc shoulder injuries are simple shoulder impingements (http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/fact/thr_report.cfm?thread_id=133&topcategory=Shoulder) - do those symptoms sound familiar?
</bore>
Problem is, the treatment is usually "rest it for a while to recover", i.e. don't do dancing. And obviously that's totally unacceptable :grin:

drathzel
13th-March-2005, 09:38 PM
<bore mode>
I think most ceroc shoulder injuries are simple shoulder impingements (http://orthoinfo.aaos.org/fact/thr_report.cfm?thread_id=133&topcategory=Shoulder) - do those symptoms sound familiar?
</bore>
Problem is, the treatment is usually "rest it for a while to recover", i.e. don't do dancing. And obviously that's totally unacceptable :grin:


i am only just back from a short break! So no, not another break :eek:

ChrisA
13th-March-2005, 10:43 PM
So ultimately, I guess what I'm really looking for in a dance is to not be injured by my partner :)
Actually, on a more serious note, I think that once you get to the point where you're no longer prepared to tolerate pain and discomfort, it frees up the path to a much richer experience of the dance.

Not getting yanked about and/or gripped to destruction by people means that you can devote your efforts to the dance, rather than self-protection, and it becomes even more enjoyable.

And even more addictive.

:clap:

MartinHarper
15th-March-2005, 02:34 AM
The follower has done a different but totally legit variation of that move, from my lead, which I basically didn't know or intend. In that case, it's my fault for not knowing that variation (see, back to "it's always the leader's fault" again :grin: )

I like to think that that logic cuts both ways. The guy is (almost) always leading something. He may not be leading what he's intending to lead, but he's still leading something, and a good follower will have a set of movements up her sleeve that will be a legitimate response to that lead. A really good follower will have five legit responses, and dozen borderline ones that she can get away with if it fits the music.

Consider the typical beginner scenario, where a guy leads a first move (out of time, of course), then waits a few beats while he remembers what comes next in the routine. A good follower will be able to follow the first move despite its unusual timing, and will do so with precisely the weird timing being lead. She will also be able to fill in the gap between the moves appropriately, without back-leading or stopping dancing.

Women like that are a real pleasure to dance with. I get this wonderful feeling of a dance where there is no "fault": only unexpected twists and turns that neither of us were expecting, but both of us are enjoying.

David Bailey
15th-March-2005, 10:09 PM
Women like that are a real pleasure to dance with. I get this wonderful feeling of a dance where there is no "fault": only unexpected twists and turns that neither of us were expecting, but both of us are enjoying.

I can't really dispute that, and :worthy: to you for being so open-minded and flexible, but I don't really feel comfortable surrendering that level of control to most followers. Perhaps I'm doing too many weird moves, or possibly I'm a control freak, but I only relax into a dance when I know my partner can follow any lead I give, no matter how loopy. I guess it's a trust issue as much as anything else - and I'll confess, I use "anticipation-catchers" sometimes just to judge a follower's ability to follow - I know, not nice :blush:

Having said that, I'm more laid-back relaxed about this sort of thing than I used to be, so maybe I'm growing up. :grin: