Back-leading??

[Allez-Cat]

Guidance from the Wise Ones please.

Pre-empting, anticipation, ladies ‘doing their thang’, hi-jacking and ‘sabotage’: I understand these expressions. But what on earth is “back-leading”? Hope it’s nothing to do with the immortal ‘Back Pass’ and those giggling medics again…

[TheTramp]

Guidance from the Wise Ones please.

Pre-empting, anticipation, ladies ‘doing their thang’, hi-jacking and ‘sabotage’: I understand these expressions. But what on earth is “back-leading”? Hope it’s nothing to do with the immortal ‘Back Pass’ and those giggling medics again…
Particularly found in the class situation, where they know what's coming next, back-leading is where the ladies actually lead the men through the move. Rather than let the man do the work.

[El Salsero Gringo]

Don't know anything about Wise Ones, but it's not always a negative. If you ask a follower to show you a move that you don't know, then she will 'back-lead' you through it.

[Minnie M]

Particularly found in the class situation, where they know what's coming next, back-leading is where the ladies actually lead the men through the move. Rather than let the man do the work.
:yeah: :flower:

[DianaS]

Particularly found in the class situation, where they know what's coming next, back-leading is where the ladies actually lead the men through the move. Rather than let the man do .
them damage :whistle:

[Allez-Cat]

it's not always a negative.

Understood.

Thank you.

[Minnie M]

them damage :whistle:

woops - sorry Diana don't agree there. Far better to relax and let the man lead, far less damage than back leading.

I would only back lead with permission as (IMO) it is almost insulting

I do sometimes (beginners only) 'force' the lead into keep the beat. I find it so frustrating when they know all the moves but can't dance in time :rolleyes:

[TheTramp]

but it's not always a negative.
I'm not sure that I 100% agree with this... At least, I do agree, but I think that the occasions when back-leading is anything other than a negative are very few and far between.

If someone is struggling with a move, then letting him work it out will help him to actually get it, and understand how to lead it (hopefully). If the follower just does it for him, I'm not sure that it'll ever help, and the leader will probably do it with that follower, and then give up on the move when he can't lead it with the next follower who isn't back-leading.

If the leader works through it, and finally gets it, then they'll have a much better understanding of how to do the move. And if they haven't got the move by the end of the class, then the teacher is there to go through it with them until they do get it. At least, that's the theory, and most teachers I've encountered are too pleased to help out.

Hence, the only time I think that back-leading should be used, is if the leader doesn't get it, wants to get it, and the teacher isn't available to help out (for whatever reason).

Given that most intermediate ladies back-lead to at least some degree (ooh, I'm in trouble now!! :devil: ), I'd usually suggest that they should concentrate on improving their following, rather than worrying at all about back-leading. The teacher is there to show the move, not the follower :flower:

[TheTramp]

I would only back lead with permission as (IMO) it is almost insulting
There is that as well. Well said Minnie.

If I was struggling with a move, and not getting it, then I'm not sure that I'd want someone in the class pointing out my mistakes.

Also, I should have said that I have seen followers 'helping out'. But getting it wrong, which I guess really doesn't help the leader. Especially when he was almost getting the move before the follower decided to lead him astray...

On the other hand, being led astray..... :drool: :rolleyes:

[El Salsero Gringo]

I'm not sure that I 100% agree with this... At least, I do agree, but I think that the occasions when back-leading is anything other than a negative are very few and far between.

I think I was being a bit terse in my reply. Let me propose a neutral definition of back-leading, which is "leading a move while dancing the follower's part".

And give two more examples where it could be used:

(Male) student to teacher: "I don't know how to dance the Waltz - can you back-lead me through it?"
Teacher to student: "Sure".

Alternatively, If I demonstrate a move on stage in a class, but I don't do it just how the teacher wants it done she'll back-lead me through it so it comes out right.

So yes, few and far between. But it's a valuable word, and I would hate it to become identified only with the perjorative usage that many people give it.

[Allez-Cat]

[QUOTE=TheTramp](ooh, I'm in trouble now!! :devil: ),QUOTE]

Well, it ain't materialised! Minds were obviously fixated on Blackpool...

To expand the thread marginally, a little (benign) mischief is fine (hence my allusion to ladies 'doing their thang'). But I would add that in my earlier days (that was last week) I was grateful for a spot of assistance from any source, provided it were offered in the right spirit - which I guess is what it's all about. However, there are those one comes across from time to time who assume they know best, and back-lead as a matter of course. For want of a better tag, I'll call them "bulldozers"! Given the over-riding (and very laudable) emphasis on courtesy, how would people recommend that "bulldozers" be dealt with?

[Minnie M]

.....how would people recommend that "bulldozers" be dealt with?
Don't dance with them ;)

[MartinHarper]

Is this in class or freestyle?

A thread on Why women anticipate moves (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1978) has a few suggestions, some more humane than others.

[Clive Long]

<< snip >>
If someone is struggling with a move, then letting him work it out will help him to actually get it, and understand how to lead it (hopefully). If the follower just does it for him, I'm not sure that it'll ever help,

Firstly, this from me, isn't a "let's attack Trampy" post :flower: (and he's quite able to look after himself).

I disagree with you. I have found certain situations when I don't get a move I just get more and more confused and stuck and agitated - very selfish because it unsettles my partner. I then appreciate some "clarification" from my partner - for the reason given by that good fellow, Trampy ..


<< snip >>
Hence, the only time I think that back-leading should be used, is if the leader doesn't get it, wants to get it, and the teacher isn't available to help out (for whatever reason).


CRL

[TheTramp]

To clarify (if it's possible when it comes to my posts.....)

The first situation is while during the class.

The second situation is after the class, if the person leading the move still hasn't, and can't, get it (and still wants to get it).

During the class, I believe that it's better for the woman to concentrate on improving her following and styling, and let the teacher worry about actually teaching the move, and the leader to learning how to do it...

Also, on plenty of occasions I've seen one of the followers 'show' (or back lead) the leader where he's going wrong, only to show him the wrong thing.

[El Salsero Gringo]

To clarify (if it's possible when it comes to my posts.....)

The first situation is while during the class.

The second situation is after the class, if the person leading the move still hasn't, and can't, get it (and still wants to get it).

During the class, I believe that it's better for the woman to concentrate on improving her following and styling, and let the teacher worry about actually teaching the move, and the leader to learning how to do it...

Also, on plenty of occasions I've seen one of the followers 'show' (or back lead) the leader where he's going wrong, only to show him the wrong thing.

I'm with Clive on this one. It's very hard for a woman to concentrate on her following if the move she's trying to follow is grinding to a halt for want of a correct arm-position, step or whatnot. Obviously it's a personal thing, but if I'm persistantly screwing up a move in the class I too would like to be put back on the right track.

As for being shown the wrong thing - well, free advice is worth what you pay for it. If the 'help' is wrong, or misleading then... so what? It was kind of my partner to try to give me the benefit of her wisdom and I (and my male colleagues) are smart enough to use it or ignore it at our discretion.

And on the subject of bulldozers: I've (just) made a resolution to take anyone who's uncomfortable to dance with to one side after and explain. Of course I shall ask permission to comment first, and be tactful and considerate. I'll let you know how many times I get a slap in the face in the next couple of weeks.

[Minnie M]

To clarify (if it's possible when it comes to my posts.....)

The first situation is while during the class.

The second situation is after the class, if the person leading the move still hasn't, and can't, get it (and still wants to get it).

During the class, I believe that it's better for the woman to concentrate on improving her following and styling, and let the teacher worry about actually teaching the move, and the leader to learning how to do it...

Also, on plenty of occasions I've seen one of the followers 'show' (or back lead) the leader where he's going wrong, only to show him the wrong thing.

:yeah: I'm with Trampy on this one - it is better for the follower AND the lead to keep to their correct roles in the class :yeah:

[Allez-Cat]

Don't dance with them

...again, anyway!


A thread on Why women anticipate moves has a few suggestions, some more humane than others.

Thanks for that, but I can't access it - keep getting this dratted message about 'lack of privileges' or summat. Presumably that's because I'm a newcomer? :(

[David Bailey]

Thanks for that, but I can't access it - keep getting this dratted message about 'lack of privileges' or summat. Presumably that's because I'm a newcomer? :(
No, works fine for me and I'm a really new newcomer. Sounds like it thought you weren't logged-in, maybe
try it again (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1978)?

[Wendy]

Well, I'm a "bulldozer" and I think that it's pretty sad that people are being advised not to dance with someone like me !!!!! I expect the reason I am a bulldozer is cos I spend most of my dancing life with beginners and also cos people haven't taken the time to explain to me what I'm doing wrong :tears: How am I supposed to get any better !!!!!!!!!?????????

David Chu :hug: is one person who has actually tried to help by getting me to relax....I had no idea of how awful it must be to dance with me ... especially awful if I know a track really well and am full of enthusiasm ... clearly other people have been grinning (through gritted teeth!!!) and bearing it for 4 years and have done little to help....

I think it's great that we are encouraging and supporting people like Ducasi so they can become better and more confident dancers...and yet the way to treat bulldozers is not to dance with them ????!!!!!!!! Something not quite right there IMO.

Wxxx

[Gadget]

Well, I'm a "bulldozer" Awww, your not that bad :flower: {:whistle::wink:}
Seriously, you're not - there are some ladies that do require physical strength to lead where you want them, or you just let them go into a move and catch them at the other end.

I don't think my particular 'style'* of dancing lends it's self to "back-leading", so ladies either have to give it up and pay attention or I remove most of my variations and dance 'normally'*. Generally it's a collaboration and we meet somewhere in the middle - probably a good thing.

{* these are relative terms :sick:}

[Graham]

It's interesting that this thread has come up. If I'm in taxi mode, then I will tell a backleader that she is doing it, and try to coach her out of it. If I'm not on duty, then sometimes in the beginner class I will still offer advice, especially if it's obviously someone brand new, because a lot of women really don't get the lead/follow thing to begin with. However, I try not to give unsolicited advice as a general rule, so most of the time when I'm off duty I say nothing. In freestyle I generally don't have a problem with backleading.

A couple of weeks ago, at a different venue from the one I taxi at, I had ten or twelve different partners in the beginner's class, and every single one of them was backleading quite strongly. One or two might be a coincidence, but surely this many must be a general failure in the way the class is being taught? I haven't got round to giving this feedback to the teacher yet, but seeing this thread has reminded me I really need to do so. When I am taking my own revision class I try to emphasize the lead/follow aspect of the dance, and it's amazing how many of the beginners have an "Oh! I didn't realise!" reaction, so I am aware how difficult it is to get it across.

The other thing to bear in mind is that women don't want to be left just standing there, so if the standard of leading is very poor, then the standard of following is also going to be low, and the incidence of backleading will be higher. So if you are faced with a woman who is backleading, first ask yourself whether your own lead is weak or late, before you pin the blame on her!

[El Salsero Gringo]

I know I'm the only one who ever posts anything positive about back-leading but I had an interesting experience on Monday, dancing with the regular teacher, who has quite phenomenal skill. For some reason within the first two bars we came to an unspoken arrangement that she was basically going to back-lead the dance, or much of it. That probably came about because I was feeling 'off', didn't find the track easy to interpret, or whatever, yet the music was very much up her street. So I ended up leading the framework of some of the moves, and she back-lead me through the rest, including extra footwork, pauses and shines - generally indicating where she wanted to go next.

The interesting thing was that it was much more challenging for me to go along with that rather than lead what would have likely been a fairly pedestrian choice of my own figures.

It definitely moved outside the normal boundaries of "he leads, she follows", yet it was still a great dance and we both enjoyed it.

[MartinHarper]

I ended up leading the framework of some of the moves, and she back-lead me through the rest, including extra footwork, pauses and shines - generally indicating where she wanted to go next.

When you say she backlead you extra footwork, what do you mean? Was it a physical lead, or a visual "copy this" lead/signal? The former sounds difficult, but I can imagine it being plausible in close hold. I've come across the latter, but wouldn't normally call it backleading.

[El Salsero Gringo]

When you say she backlead you extra footwork, what do you mean? Was it a physical lead, or a visual "copy this" lead/signal? The former sounds difficult, but I can imagine it being plausible in close hold. I've come across the latter, but wouldn't normally call it backleading.Difficult to tie down, really, I think there was both. The problem wasn't in determining her communication, but I had to work hard to overcome my feeling that 'I wasn't doing it properly'.

By the way, why wouldn't you call visual leading from the girl a back-lead?

[Chef]

Well, I'm a "bulldozer" and I think that it's pretty sad that people are being advised not to dance with someone like me !!!!! I expect the reason I am a bulldozer is cos I spend most of my dancing life with beginners and also cos people haven't taken the time to explain to me what I'm doing wrong :tears: How am I supposed to get any better !!!!!!!!!?????????

David Chu :hug: is one person who has actually tried to help by getting me to relax....I had no idea of how awful it must be to dance with me ... especially awful if I know a track really well and am full of enthusiasm ... clearly other people have been grinning (through gritted teeth!!!) and bearing it for 4 years and have done little to help....

I think it's great that we are encouraging and supporting people like Ducasi so they can become better and more confident dancers...and yet the way to treat bulldozers is not to dance with them ????!!!!!!!! Something not quite right there IMO.

Wxxx

As has been said before, the term "Bulldozer" is a relative term and people have assured you that you are not one. I do think that it would be best for beginner men to avoid dancing with bulldozer women because if they do continue to dance with them they will never learn to lead. The beginner men will never learn to lead because their experience will be "it doesn't matter how I lead this particular move the woman always does it anyway". The need to get better is removed from them because everyting they do ends up in the woman doing a move.

Experienced leaders can cope with "bulldozers" because they are already addicted to dance and won't let one experience put them off.

As for no one telling you that you do this or that - well, you are a taxi dancer! The beginner men don't know enough to be able to say anything to you with any authority and the people in any position to give you any critical advice know better than give unsolicited advice. If you want to know then you have to ask and you have to be prepared to hear things you may not like (I know by recent experience). Once you have got over the feeling of injured pride you can start devising ways of tackling any bad habits that you have picked up - and by practicing them endlessly, made permanent.

In your role as a taxi dancer you do get a huge exposure to beginner men and that means that you have to "help" them through moves. The problem arises when this "helping" becomes a permanent feature of your normal dancing. My partner and I find that dancing with your eyes closed (or with a blindfold) is great. It also helps me stop back leading when I dance as a follower.

Women that "bulldoze" are the absolute death knell for beginner men. It just extends the time until the men feel that they are in control of the dance - sometimes to the point where they give up.

Some women are so strong about "bulldozing" that I don't even attempt to control them. Fortunately women like this are extrememly rare. I start off trying to lead them into an interesting move that will end up hitting a break or a point for musical accents and - whoa - they are off with the fairies - charging through a move that they know, spinning 3 or 4 times when I hadn't lead it, missing the accent point in the music. I could struggle with them, but I refuse to. I came to have a good time rather than a wrestling match. So it is back to doing beginner moves, sod the music, just pump out those moves, let go with the fingers when she tries to yank my arms off. It is only 3 minutes or so - just remember your best smile and to say "thank you".

[David Bailey]

It's interesting that this thread has come up. If I'm in taxi mode, then I will tell a backleader that she is doing it, and try to coach her out of it. If I'm not on duty, then sometimes in the beginner class I will still offer advice, especially if it's obviously someone brand new, because a lot of women really don't get the lead/follow thing to begin with. However, I try not to give unsolicited advice as a general rule, so most of the time when I'm off duty I say nothing. In freestyle I generally don't have a problem with backleading.

Sounds like a sensible way to proceed. I'm a bit stronger on the "never offer advice in freestyle" thing - I think you've got to be extremely cautious about commenting on anyone's style during a freestyle dance - even with the best of intentions, you can give offence.
I'm also pretty poor at telling what my partner is doing wrong, maybe I'm just not paying attention :blush:

[Wendy]

As a taxi dancer I have the opportunity to do exercises like "dance with your eyes closed" and another one I did last session was to get the guys to do the moves but to stop every couple of movements (in their own time) to see if the ladies were anticipating.... ladies launched themselves into the rest of the move with no lead....and I think I got my point across !!!! (I think in a fun way !!!) I also do that if I can in a class when I dance as a man (with ladies who I know well and who have been coming for a while) and we both have a laugh about that too...

CEROC is taught for/to the men .. "do this do that".... the ladies are given little or no guidance really...and then in the intermediate class it's more of the same... :sick: .. more thousands of moves executed badly and then not even to be seen again in freestyle... why can't we have more lead /follow exercies like those mentioned above in EVERY single beginner class!!!!! People don't seem to get bored doing the same beginner moves for months and even years !!!!!

I think people forget that women are terrified to get it wrong (or to be seen to get it wrong - cos it's always the man's fault of course :whistle: ) in the class.. they want to finish at the same time as the teacher.... and a lot of beginner men get it wrong !!! We also forget that BOTH people are seeing the move done so of course the woman is going to participate so it works !!!!! ....... and on many occasions guys say to me.. "oh good - someone who knows what they are doing" and I always add "I'm just doing what you make me do... you're in control !"

I made a real effort to allow myself to be led in the intermediate class last night... and many of the guys got the timing wrong and really didn't make me move where we were meant to go ..and I ended up facing sideways instead of being in front of the guy (facing away) and that was at the END of the class... he simply hadn't got it !!!!!! I don't care cos I'm an experiecned dancer but if that had been in a beginner class on my first night I would have probably have felt really uncomfortable and would have blamed myself for not getting it !!!!!

Quite simply men are not taught to lead (they are toaught moves) and women are most certainly not taught how to follow..... and if I hadn't gone to workshops (especially those run by Lilly and David B) in addition to normal class nights I guess I'd never have picked up what I'm really supposed to be doing !!!!

So give those (us) bulldozers a break guys.. I really don't think it's their fault.. THEY HAVEN'T BEEN TAUGHT TO KNOW ANY DIFFERENT !!!!!!!!!!!!! Spend some time with them.. think of clever ways to help them improve without hurting their pride... It can only be a good thing for all of us !!!!!!! Remember those taxi dancers and kind ladies who did that for you once !!!!!!!!!!!???????????????? Give a little back... oh.. and learn to lead better, keep in time with the music and leave us a little space at the breaks !!!!! Do all that and I'll follow like a wee feathery shadow - it's not asking for much !!!! :rofl:

Wxxx

[JoC]

In a class I find paying less attention to what the teacher is saying (me being a follower, no offence to teachers :) ) helps keep the followers role more firmly in my head. I watch the demo's of the moves, but try not to listen to the instructions in detail, just tuning in for the parts where the follower needs to understand a particular signal, the rest of the information just flows away out of my brain never to be seen again. I'm sure the occasions when I do listen more than usual I seem to get all mangled and have to actively stop the temptation to back lead during the class.

If a move is being danced in freestyle I wont know it's coming so having the move embedded in my mind wont be of use.

So when I move round the class and someone asks me if I know the move yet the answer is always no!

Having said that I know I've led myself into a few returns that weren't, and the rest...

[MartinHarper]

By the way, why wouldn't you call visual leading from the girl a back-lead?

To me, back-leading (or leading) is where I'm only being given one option for what to do, and the situation you describe does sound like that.
I was thinking of cases where the girl is giving visual cues that are more like "I can do this - can you match it?". In these cases I have several options: match it, one-up it, lead out of it, drool, etc, so I don't feel that I'm being back-lead - instead, I'd use the phrase "active following".

I find back-following tolerable, but much less fun than proper following, so I don't really care for it.

[David Bailey]

I was thinking of cases where the girl is giving visual cues that are more like "I can do this - can you match it?". In these cases I have several options: match it, one-up it, lead out of it, drool, etc, so I don't feel that I'm being back-lead - instead, I'd use the phrase "active following".
Hmmm, I've had this a few times - typically in a facing double open handhold with tension, when the girl suddenly starts doing some weird and wonderful footwork routine... I do find that sort of thing a little annoying, because if I don't recognise this choreographed routine, I won't know when it's going to end, so I'm just standing there like a lummox* for an indeterminate time. On the other hand, it's usually good to watch! And I guess it's my fault for leading her into that position in the first place.

* More than usual.

[spindr]

And I guess it's my fault for leading her into that position in the first place.
Not necessarily.

Of course, if you've a wicked sense of humour there's no reason to immediately lead something when the lady *thinks* she's finished -- you can stand there and wait and see what she does when she gets *unexpected* time to play :whistle:

SpinDr.

[Chicklet]

Hmmm, I've had this a few times - typically in a facing double open handhold with tension, when the girl suddenly starts doing some weird and wonderful footwork routine... I do find that sort of thing a little annoying, because if I don't recognise this choreographed routine,

:confused: What makes you think it's a choreographed routine????
That position is possibly the MOST common open "invitation" and certainly one that lots of girls will recognise as the premier "play" / "perform" position, so if you find it annoying, what else were you actually trying to (have her) do at the time?

[David Bailey]

:confused: What makes you think it's a choreographed routine????
Because I've seen the same thing done by different girls at different times, basically.
I see what you mean about play/perform, good point, and I'll certainly do my best to let the girls have the space to do their thing. Although that's also my favourite position for a merengue / boogaloo play, that's really the only position you can do that stuff from...
But, and this is my main problem, when and how do I take back control? It's sometimes not easy to tell, especially with the routine I'm thinking of (lots of footwork, no dips or obvious finishes - please don't ask me to describe it!). And the transfer isn't obvious - to me, at least. Hmmm, I bet this is covered in some workshop or other...

[Wendy]

Isn't is obvious when she has finished ???? I do wee wiggly things at these times but it doesn't usually take very long and I thought my lack of wiggling/movement and my big "oh my god take back the lead" staring eyes would be a clear sign that I'd done my theng ?????

Wxx

[Chicklet]

would have to agree with Wendy, the eyes should be a big giveaway if nothing else!

[ChrisA]

so I'm just standing there like a lummox* for an indeterminate time.
Top tip:

The secret is to look cool and appreciative even though you might feel like a lummox.

Actually that applies to most of dancing in my experience. :whistle:

[Wendy]

The secret is to look cool and appreciative even though you might feel like a lummox.There has to be workshop in there somewhere ??!!!!

Wx

[ChrisA]

There has to be workshop in there somewhere ??!!!!
It's what they teach at elite venues :devil:

[David Bailey]

Isn't is obvious when she has finished ???? I do wee wiggly things at these times but it doesn't usually take very long and I thought my lack of wiggling/movement and my big "oh my god take back the lead" staring eyes would be a clear sign that I'd done my theng ?????
Well, a clear sign of something... :)
To me, mmm, no, it's not always obvious to me when the girl is finished. But it could be me - "Control-passing and me is not good", I suspect. I fall to pieces with all this fancy footwork, I'm just lost in appreciation :)

[David Bailey]

It's what they teach at elite venues :devil:
Oh God, please don't start... :tears:

[MartinHarper]

I found that learning Lindy helped me to cope better with MJ women who "play", simply because "playing" (from both partners) is a bigger part of Lindy, and it's taught in regular lessons. I imagine that learning WCS would be similarly useful.

A while back, as soon as I saw my partner playing, I would immediately stop leading, with the aim of giving her space and time to play in. This was bad - with the absence of lead/follow, my partner didn't know how much time she had to play, I didn't know how much she wanted. The overall effect was awkward and disconnected. It also deprived my partner of the chance to play within what I was leading.

Now, I take the view that if my partner wants additional time and space to play in, beyond the gaps in what I'm currently leading, then she has to request it via her following. If she doesn't make it sufficiently clear that she wants extra time, then she doesn't get any. I guess it's a similar attitude to the follower who says "unless you lead me, I won't move". This approach seems to work better for me.

[Wendy]

I was accused of being elitist once and I'm a Taxi dancer !!!! :rofl: (G made me edit what I really wanted to say.. god he has such a strong lead !!!)

Wxxx

[Wendy]

as soon as I saw my partner playing, I would immediately stop leading, with the aim of giving her space and time to play in. This was bad - with the absence of lead/follow, my partner didn't know how much time she had to play, I didn't know how much she wanted. The overall effect was awkward and disconnected. It also deprived my partner of the chance to play within But doesn't the music have something to do with it to ???? I don't just mince around cos I feel like or cos I want control or whatever.. it's cos the music is saying "do something now .. well not now but in a minute... here it comes.. NOW!!!!".... that's why with some guys (the ones who must be hearing the music as I do) I feel they aren't surprised or annoyed or feel like I'm some bulldozing freak, stomping over their moves in my Doc Martyn dance shoes !!!! whilst with others this clearly is the case... I mean when you hear "perhaps , perhaps , perhaps" you just can't carry on as if it's "call on me" can you !!!!!


Wxxx

[Bryman]

I mean when you hear "perhaps , perhaps , perhaps" you just can't carry on as if it's "call on me" can you !!!!!


Wxxx[/QUOTE]


......perhaps, and perhaps not! Depends on who is doing the hearing, and if he/she has been given permission to "speak" in the dance "conversation" by the partner. This seems to be determined by similar variables to be found in any interpersonal interaction, including (amongst a huge number of other factors) personality, familiarity with the partner, articulation of the shared language and the goals, conscious and unconscious, of each partner. I think that this, as well as the pure and simple pleasure of moving to music with another person is what keeps the mystery, and therefore endless fascination of dance alive for so many people.
But Wendy, I know that I enjoy hearing your "voice" when we dance - and it is definitely NOT the sound of a bulldozer engine!

Bry :flower:

[Wendy]

Well this just fills me with joy and I don't mean the complimentary bit (that fills me with.. well.. em .. the stuff I get filled with when I dance with you - if you are who I think you are !!!!) where was I???? .... sigh...


......perhaps, and perhaps not! Depends on who is doing the hearing, and if he/she has been given permission to "speak" in the dance "conversation" by the partner. This seems to be determined by similar variables to be found in any interpersonal interaction, including (amongst a huge number of other factors) personality, familiarity with the partner, articulation of the shared language and the goals, conscious and unconscious, of each partner.

oh yeah.. "sigh"......

I think that women aren't heard (in the world generally and in the world of CEROC).... there is that "be seen and not heard" thing that children were meant to do in olden times.... and sometimes as a woman, who is not a child, it is hard to wait for "permission" when you know in your heart that what you have to say/dance is valid !!!! It is then hard not to scream to be heard (cos we aren't given the chance to practise at a normal level very often !!!!) and then you are treated as an outcast.... The men who have little to say, or say it badly are in charge....

I tried to REALLY follow last night.. to be an extension of the guys' every whim (and mistake and lack of appreciation of the music!!!) and I really felt quite sad.. (I left before the Intermediate class and really felt like giving up altogether)... I too have something to express, to communicate ..to share.. and maybe cerocland is not the place for me....

You are a very special and rare person/dancer who listens to his partner... AND to the music!!!! You'd be amazed at how many men do not !!!

Wxxx

[MartinHarper]

Doesn't the music have something to do with it too?

Music has a lot to do with it. My partner and I can both "play", within the boundaries of what I'm leading, according to what we hear in the music. I can lead different things according to what I hear in the music. My partner can choose to request additional "play time" according to what she hears in the music.

On the other hand, I don't believe that the music is an excuse for completely ignoring a clear lead. If I lead a spin, I want to be given some kind of spin. I'm happy for it to be a double spin, or an extended spin, or a slow sexy spin, or even a jumping roundhouse kick - whatever my partner feels fits the music best. I'm not happy if I lead a spin and get a freeze.

[Wendy]

I'm not happy if I lead a spin and get a freeze. I do a great freeze when I'm meant to spin !!!!!!

Wxxx

[JoC]

and maybe cerocland is not the place for me....



Hope that wasn't serious Wendy, you're one of my role models!

I'm a little confused between what some are interpreting as back-leading, a follower doing her (or his) own thang, and followers highjacking moves. The latter two seem to be two options for adding variety and interest and are clearly deliberate. The former presumably is never done consciously unless by prior arrangement...

Can anyone clarify? How does a leader differentiate between the follower backleading, one claiming a moment to do their own thang, and one highjacking? Is it in the eyes? For a highjack is it the eyes and the demanding, imposing body language (as per footwork class last night in Perth)? And would the leader be less annoyed if they knew it was a highjack? Do some leaders need to chill out and go with the flow a bit more... :devil:

Sad to hear that some of the guys seem to get upset when a woman does her thang...I'm busy trying to learn how to / get brave enough to do more of my own thang, because seeing the good 'uns at it, I think it looks great. I'm sure there's a whole other thread on this somewhere...

[David Bailey]

Can anyone clarify? How does a leader differentiate between the follower backleading, one claiming a moment to do their own thang, and one highjacking? Is it in the eyes?
Good question. I'd love to know that too :). I don't think there's an obvious answer, but I'd say that like all things, it depends on how familiar you are with your partner. If I know my partner, at least a little, then I know how much rope to extend in the leash, so to speak; you get used to the style, you know their capabilities, and you have the confidence and trust in them to let them go away, and come back, and still be in time and in style with the music.
But if I don't know my partner at all, and she does weird footie things (!), and it's a dark crowded room, with loud music, and I'm trying to think how to get the next move into the next music sequence, then it throws me a little...


Do some leaders need to chill out and go with the flow a bit more... :devil:
Um, yep, probably :blush: "It's only a dance. It's only a dance"...

[El Salsero Gringo]

How does a leader differentiate between the follower backleading, one claiming a moment to do their own thang, and one highjacking?
I think your distinction is only imaginary. If the lady wants to do her own moves, it's up to the leader to decide if he's going to let her, or what he's going to do about it. If she's a beginner who wouldn't know a piece of fancy footwork from a piece of fancy needlework then that's one thing. If she's an experienced dancer putting in her own shines, then that's something else. Why the need for precriptive rules?

[Lynn]

I think your distinction is only imaginary. If the lady wants to do her own moves, it's up to the leader to decide if he's going to let her, or what he's going to do about it. If she's a beginner who wouldn't know a piece of fancy footwork from a piece of fancy needlework then that's one thing. If she's an experienced dancer putting in her own shines, then that's something else. Why the need for precriptive rules? I don't think its 'imaginary' to have a distinction between back leading and 'doing your own thing'. IMO back leading is the follower leading the move as she knows it or thinks it should be going - very different from 'improvising' - which is usually an unplanned response to the music (well it is for me anyway!).

[El Salsero Gringo]

I don't think its 'imaginary' to have a distinction between back leading and 'doing your own thing'. IMO back leading is the follower leading the move as she knows it or thinks it should be going - very different from 'improvising' - which is usually an unplanned response to the music (well it is for me anyway!).

OK then. Back leading is when the follower indicates (by some kind of lead) where she want the leader to go, or what step she wants him to do. But that can be part of a lady's improvisation as well, as I found out the other day.

[David Bailey]

OK then. Back leading is when the follower indicates (by some kind of lead) where she want the leader to go, or what step she wants him to do. But that can be part of a lady's improvisation as well, as I found out the other day.
I agree with your definition, but for that occasion, I'd say that's crossing the line between improvisation to back-leading. I'd say that improvisation should be limited to one move sequence, then control is handed back - otherwise, thin end of the wedge, where will it stop, end of the world... But then, as had been pointed out, I probably should chill out more about this sort of thing. :whistle:

[Lynn]

I'd say that improvisation should be limited to one move sequence, then control is handed back - otherwise, thin end of the wedge, where will it stop, end of the world... What, we have to think while we are dancing? :what: Isn't that the man's role? :whistle:

When I am 'improvising' I am responding to the music. I don't plan it, it just tends to 'happen', and if its someone I haven't danced with before I will try to see how comfortable they are with me doing a little bit first. Or if its 'that' type of track I might even forewarn or ask before I do anything.

[El Salsero Gringo]

I agree with your definition, but for that occasion, I'd say that's crossing the line between improvisation to back-leading. I'd say that improvisation should be limited to one move sequence, then control is handed back - otherwise, thin end of the wedge, where will it stop, end of the world... But then, as had been pointed out, I probably should chill out more about this sort of thing. :whistle:
You're all so keen to tie things down with definitions, lines to be crossed, limits, what's permissible, what isn't and so on. It's a dance, not a court of law!

If backleading leads to a better dance, then great. If it doesn't, and it doesnt usually, then in those cases, not so great.

[Graham]

an anyone clarify? How does a leader differentiate between the follower backleading, one claiming a moment to do their own thang, and one highjacking? Is it in the eyes?
I shall rashly attempt a definition, although I imagine there already is one lurking somewhere else on the forum.

Backleading is where the follower is guiding the leader through a pattern (ie a "move" such as first move, yoyo, etc, or part of one). This could be due to improvisation, or it could just be a bad habit. The follower dances her own part without any lead from the leader, and in doing so moves the leader's hand to his shoulder, her hip, etc, so that the overall impression is similar to what it would look like if he were genuinely leading. The leader is back-following, using his knowledge of the patterns to recognise what the follower is backleading and trying to move accordingly.

A hijack is where the follower actually switches roles and leads her partner (usually temporarily). A simple hijack is to turn or spin your partner. The difference is that the follower is genuinely leading the pattern(s) - she must lead the leader to perform the requisite movements and not rely on him filling bits in by recognition.

Claiming a moment is simple - the follower simply interrupts the pattern to insert something of her own which the leader didn't lead. A slow turn rather than a normal-speed one, for example. The leader is still leading the overall pattern, but the follower is inserting an extra bit, and when she's finished the leader continues with whatever he was planning to do.

Having said that, the first sign a leader will get for all of them will be that his partner feels different, so it can be difficult to differentiate unless you have a good connection with your partner, and/or are used to them.

[David Bailey]

What, we have to think while we are dancing? :what: Isn't that the man's role?
"With great power comes great responsibility". Apparently.

[David Bailey]

I shall rashly attempt a definition,
<snip good explanation>

There you go, spoiling a perfectly good argument with clarity and reasonableness :tears:
Hell, I'm off home to work on emptying my trousers...

[El Salsero Gringo]

"With great power comes great responsibility". Apparently.Well said, TardisTrousers.


Hoo ha ha ha he he he

[MartinHarper]

I shall rashly attempt a definition...

Excellent definitions.

For me, a follower "claiming a moment" feels quite different to backleading: it is as if my partner is moving more languidly in response to my lead, or as if she is much heavier. She's still following, but changing the manner in which she is following so as to elicit a certain response.

[MartinHarper]

I too have something to express, to communicate ..to share..

I've heard similar commnts to Wendy's from other folks, so this is a generalised rant. I'd say there are essentially two options available to a woman in that position:
1) Dance as a lead
2) Learn how to express stuff whilst still following.

(gross generalisation mode on...)
Deliberate back-leading is bad, because back-following sucks. It's not possible to back-follow nuances of a move. It's not possible to back-follow moves I haven't seen before. It's not possible to back-follow improvised or unusual moves. It's not possible to express anything worthwhile whilst back-following. Back-leads are unclear and uncomfortable - worse than a beginner lead on their first night. This is because neither back-leading nor back-following are formally taught, and MJ was designed to be lead, not back-lead.

It's not about control - it's about fun.

[Lynn]

I've heard similar commnts to Wendy's from other folks, so this is a generalised rant. I'd say there are essentially two options available to a woman in that position:
1) Dance as a lead
2) Learn how to express stuff whilst still following. Not sure exactly how I do this, as its something I've only 'reintroduced' into my dancing more recently (and possibly somewhat unconsciously)... - someone please tell me if any of the following (no pun intended) are problems -
- putting in little 'footwork' bits (not 'set' footwork, just the way I am stepping) - try to do this within the framework of following the lead, so I am still going where he wants me to
- slowing down at the end of a move, eg sweeping round more slowly (and slinkily) instead of a standard 'turn & return'
- taking some 'time out' from following to do my own thing a bit - never in the middle of a move, not for very long, and regular partners will probably expect it...
- and maybe I shouldn't do this one but I just can't help it - marking breaks or phrases where I can hear them and the lead isn't marking them at all.
I haven't heard many complaints (though was told 'I can't do slower' when I tried some slower turn things, appropriately to Kylie's Slow, but I don't think it was a complaint as such).

But I don't think any of those would consitute back leading, would they?

[El Salsero Gringo]

(gross generalisation mode on...)You said it, buddy.
Deliberate back-leading is bad, because back-following sucks. No it doesn't.
It's not possible to back-follow nuances of a move.Yes it is.
It's not possible to back-follow moves I haven't seen before.Of course it is.
It's not possible to back-follow improvised or unusual moves.You can do that, too.
It's not possible to express anything worthwhile whilst back-following.Oh yes it is! (going into pantomime mode here.)
Back-leads are unclear and uncomfortable - worse than a beginner lead on their first night. She's behind you...
This is because neither back-leading nor back-following are formally taught, and MJ was designed to be lead, not back-lead.Look, just because they're not taught doesn't mean you can't do them. Try extending your abilities to include following from a leader's position.


It's not about control - it's about fun.Oh, well, that bit I agree with.

[David Bailey]

As I seem to be taking the "control freak" side of the argument...

someone please tell me if any of the following (no pun intended) are problems -
- putting in little 'footwork' bits (not 'set' footwork, just the way I am stepping) - try to do this within the framework of following the lead, so I am still going where he wants me to

:clap: Fantastic, please do more of this, I personally love it - hopefully I won't get so distracted I forget my next move.


- slowing down at the end of a move, eg sweeping round more slowly (and slinkily) instead of a standard 'turn & return'

As long as it's two beats, rather than 1.5 or something weird, fine.



- taking some 'time out' from following to do my own thing a bit - never in the middle of a move, not for very long, and regular partners will probably expect it...

Hmmm, depends on the context, but I think I'd be a little antsy unless I knew you well.


and maybe I shouldn't do this one but I just can't help it - marking breaks or phrases where I can hear them and the lead isn't marking them at all.

Actually, I don't mind this, it may give me some insight or even inspiration for next time, especially if I don't know the track (and so don't know where the breaks are). OK, so I'm inconsistent - "Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds".



But I don't think any of those would consitute back leading, would they?
I think the "doing your own thing" is the only one I might have a problem with, depends how much of your own thing you do of course :)

I was trying at Hipsters last night to put into practise the whole "open invitation" thing (occasionally I do listen to advice :)), and it just wasn't working for me. I think that's something you really need to do with a regular partner - in fact, I think that criterion applies to all this area.

Another "invitation to play", obviously, is the basic LH hold extended, where I just kind of spreads my legs a little, wiggle and look expectantly at my partner. I have to say here that Lory's got a great"walk up the arm" routine with that one, and I love it. :flower: But again, it's back to the "know your partner" thing...

[bigdjiver]

I think your distinction is only imaginary. If the lady wants to do her own moves, it's up to the leader to decide if he's going to let her, or what he's going to do about it. If she's a beginner who wouldn't know a piece of fancy footwork from a piece of fancy needlework then that's one thing. If she's an experienced dancer putting in her own shines, then that's something else. Why the need for precriptive rules?If I come across a beginner who wants to do her own thing, I let her, and slip the MJ in where I can. I think that she is there to enjoy herself and express herself. I do not care how awful it appears to me. I only really stop her if she slips into being dangerous. This is not quite as liberal as it sounds, because "slipping in the MJ where I can" is code for offering two hands, and if accepted, she is into a vice-like basket walk-around and a lecture on the philosophy of MJ.

[bigdjiver]

For me it is one weakness of Ceroc that it the norm for it to be a male led dance. To a small extent that is compensated for in that there is nothing to stop a lady taking the leaders part, or a man taking the followers part. I think that the leader should allow the follower space, if they want it. I think Hijaaking is alright if the leader is comfortable with it. There are very few hijaaks that I like. do not like being hijaaked without consent at a Ceroc event. I would rather they just said "Sorry, no, thank you" if they do not want to dance Ceroc, It is not "just three minutes", it is three dance minutes.

[MartinHarper]

All this in my opinion, as ever, and making generalisations...


putting in little 'footwork' bits (not 'set' footwork, just the way I am stepping) - try to do this within the framework of following the lead, so I am still going where he wants me to.
Yep, great.


slowing down at the end of a move, eg sweeping round more slowly (and slinkily) instead of a standard 'turn & return'
So, you're lead a return, and you perform a return, but take a little longer to do it?
This is great when that extra time is requested (non-verbally) by the woman, and that request is accepted by the man. That way, both dancers know what is going on, and the lines of communication are kept open. If the woman suddenly goes into slinky mode with zero warning, then that's not so great.


taking some 'time out' from following to do my own thing a bit - never in the middle of a move, not for very long, and regular partners will probably expect it...
So, instead of doing a return, and going straight into the next move, you're doing a return, playing for a couple of counts, and then going into the next move? Again, great if it works as a request/accept thing, not so great if you literally abandon following.


marking breaks or phrases where I can hear them and the lead isn't marking them at all.
Great if the woman is marking breaks within the context of what the guy's leading. Not so great if she's just backleading the guy into a freeze.

[David Bailey]

This is not quite as liberal as it sounds, because "slipping in the MJ where I can" is code for offering two hands, and if accepted, she is into a vice-like basket walk-around and a lecture on the philosophy of MJ.
Ooh, nasty :rofl:


For me it is one weakness of Ceroc that it the norm for it to be a male led dance.
Well, that's one weakness of any partner dance, surely? I'm not an expert, but the few styles I've done all have a leader and a follower, with the leader generally being the man*. I'm not sure how else it could be organised - you can't really discuss it between you as you dance. Although, I have to admit, it'd be interesting to try swapping leads in a dance, or at least to watch it being tried :)

* Honorable exceptions to Salsa Rosada / Rivoli Ballroom type events of course, but even with those, there's a leader and follower...

[Graham]

Although, I have to admit, it'd be interesting to try swapping leads in a dance, or at least to watch it being tried :)
It's quite fun actually - I've done it a couple of times.

Those of you who do not think the woman should do anything except by invitation, I think you're probably missing out on a lot of ideas for musical interpretation. I like to think I (now) have reasonable musicality, but I wouldn't have got here without being shown possibilities by various partners along the way (one in particular stands out of course :wink: ). The other thing I am very conscious of is that if the leader is completely ignoring the music it must drive you nuts as a follower. It's like sitting in a dual control car and being told you mustn't touch the pedals unless invited by the (learner) driver, no matter how fast you're approaching a junction :what:

[bigdjiver]

It is possible to swap by pre-arranged invitation - one method is for the leader to simply turn his hand so that it is now resting on his partners, in follower mode. I have not tried this, but I believe others have.

[Wendy]

I'm not that interested in taking the lead (funnily enough!!).. when I do I just say " You be the girl now!" :rofl: I'm an average lead I expect (some girls think I'm quite good :waycool: but on the other hand I don't really aspire to being a good lead !! I really only do it when there there is a serious shortage of men or if some of the boys want to get in touch with their feminine side :flower: Being the lead stops me being as expressive as I would want to be and it bugs me when I want to do something dramatic at a break and I don't have anything dramatic up my sleave...

Taking the lead and taking control - not the same thing ! :devil: :wink:

Some Freudian expert might say that I want the control without the responsbility.. sounds about right :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Wxxx

[MartinHarper]

I want the control without the responsibility

Try solo dance.

[David Bailey]

Try solo dance.
:rofl: :rofl: Why didn't I think of that...

I was going to quote Tom Stoppard in reply but Martin beat me to it :(
Oh what the hell, I'll do it anyway:
"...responsibility without power, the prerogative of the eunuch throughout the ages."
Not something you want your leader to be thinking of, in an average dance, I'd suggest... :)

[Lory]

The other thing I am very conscious of is that if the leader is completely ignoring the music it must drive you nuts as a follower.
:yeah: with bells on! :na:

[CJ]

Nuts with bells on?!?!?!?!!??!? :eek:

Ouch. :tears:

[Lory]

Nuts with bells on?!?!?!?!!??!? :eek:

Ouch. :tears:
CJ don't lie, that's given you ideas, hasn't it? :rofl:

[Wendy]

Try solo dance. Well I used to do that a lot and found great wee clubs that played music that made me dance all night. It is harder to get music I like in noncerocland - a generational thing I expect...

I WANT to do partner dancing...... I WANT to be a better follower and I think I am getting better....

I can't believe I'll ever enjoy dancing with someone who doesn't hear the beat.. unless I'm taxi-ing and then I'll try to help them to get it.... but I'm in a different mode when I'm taxi-ing or dancing with beginners.... I'm not really dancing....I'm teaching..and being nice and supportive and encouraging and all that stuff.... and maybe since I do taxi/dance with beginners a lot ...I really want to let rip when I'm not..... so maybe my expectations are too high...

And BTW I can name a few guys who do CEROC but who are really doing solo dancing !!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

And how come I have sussed all the moves some guys do (cos god knows they do the same ones EVERY song :sick: ) and yet the few wiggly bits I add to a track are always such a surprise to THEM !!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad:

I go to workshops and dance weekends in the hope of improving my dancing/picking up style tips etc .... yet so many guys stay in the same boring rut for years !!!!!!! ...oops... bet I've gone off topic now as well .....

I back-lead sometimes and I will try not to in the future and if I do, please point it out to me...
IF YOU DARE !!!!!!!

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Wx

[MartinHarper]

How come I have sussed all the moves some guys do [...] and yet the few wiggly bits I add to a track are always such a surprise to them?

I think the more interesting question is this:
"How can I let my partner know that I want to add a wiggly bit, so that it's less likely to surprise him or come across as back-leading?"

There's a useful thread on essentially this subject: It's offical - ladies can lead a break! (http://www.cerocscotland.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1113) - there's an excellent post by DavidB, for example. You've already read it, but it might be worth looking over again.

[David Bailey]

I WANT to do partner dancing...... I WANT to be a better follower and I think I am getting better....
<snip serious amount of ranting :)>
Wx
I'm sure you are, no-one as committed as you seem could fail to improve. It's damned difficult to improve your following skills in Ceroc - it's relatively trivial to become a good lead, that's what 99% of the teaching is focussed on. But I take my hat off to women who become superb followers just through MJ, it's a hard route to follow if you haven't had other dance disciplines to give you a grounding.

Having said that, I think I'd probably tend lead you a little firmer than usual if we danced, you might go and do scary things off somewhere by yourself otherwise :) :)

[JoC]

she is into a vice-like basket walk-around and a lecture on the philosophy of MJ.

I thought this was a really really popular move that everyone did all the time, no?

[bigdjiver]

What really brings joy to my heart is watching the look of relief flood across her face as we come out of it, and then the expression as I continue smoothly on to a swizzle and another lap. :devil:

Actually we teach beginners the Basket and the Swizzle, and I would have the walk-arounds taught as beginner moves. They do use up a good bit of dance time, are easy to follow, and do give the opportunity for chat and getting to know partner.

[David Bailey]

What really brings joy to my heart is watching the look of relief flood across her face as we come out of it, and then the expression as I continue smoothly on to a swizzle and another lap.
:rofl: Evil - love it. I've done that one, so many times, and I never ever thought of it that way!